Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, November 11
2002 Volume 01 : Number 995
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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:41:01 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
Gaskets not sold separately. Timing belt covers are $85 from dealer and the
part number is on them (on the under side).
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From: Aamer
[mailto:aamer@aamerabbas.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:50
AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt
skip?
Tigran, did you ever find out a price or part number for these
gaskets?
- --
Aamer Abbas
1994 3000GT (DOHC/Naturally Aspirated)
Raleigh,
North Carolina, USA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 11:02:47 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
You know, this is such a quagmire problem that I would not be at all
surprised if there are a lot more people out there that had their belt
jump due to this, do not realize it and blame it on something else like
the tensioner. I have spoken with a few of my local club member guys and
Paul for instance said that his gasket is missing chunks and he never even
thought about it being a problem. It was really amazing to see how easy
the belt jumps too. It looks so solid on there, but you introduce an
object about the size of a gear tooth into the mix and just takes it in,
turns over and skips. I will have pictures of that soon for my court case
and will post them. So far everyone I asked has dried up flaking
gaskets... I find it amazing that I am the first to actually consider and
test them to be the problem.
Glad I was able to help you.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:52:25 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
I have a question... Exactly what do you plan to get out of
Mitsubishi???
So a gasket dried up over a period of years... So they don't sell the
gasket independently... Big deal... Like they care...
That's like saying the timing belt wore out... It's gonna happen and
there's nothing you can do about it...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:59:42 -0600
From: "Brandon Wieschhaus" <
bwish@umr.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone
want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
I think their big beef is that by not marking the gaskets as consumables,
and not selling them independently either, Mitsubishi has some level of
negligence. Whether or not it will work, I have no idea, but I see where
they're coming from...
-b
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:02:30 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
Timing belt is a replaceable and serviceable part. They have documentation
telling you when and how to change it. All serviceable parts have
instructions in the manual on how to test them and how often to change
them. If the manual is followed to the T the car should be able to last
indefinitely and there are plenty of cars in the world with over 500K and even
1M miles on them. There is NOTHING warning the owners about this problem!
It is a reusable part, they never state that it could be a problem. Had I
known it would have been fixed/replaced long ago. This is a ticking
timebomb. I just reset timing on my engine today, I got 0PSI. NO COMPRESSION at
all!! I'm getting whatever it costs me to replace that out of Mitsu!
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:15:45 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
I hate to say it... but a tie end is not a consumable part either, nor does
the manual say ANYTHING about them wearing out...
Guess what, Mine broke, as I was driving...
Sorry for your bad luck, but sometimes, shit just happens and it's no ones
fault...
Struts go bad too, and they aren't marked as "consumable, or need to
replace" There's a million other things that are like that...
This not negligence on Mitsu's part... Any time that that gasket would
really come apart is if you remove the covers... Well, any mechanic,
especially a Mitsu-trained mechanic, should catch the fact that that is
eroding, and recommend replacement...
- -Cody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:15:04 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
Moe-
Three covers. Two upper covers (visible) and one lower (visible part hard
to get to!). They all have gaskets. The lower timing cover has many
gaskets. Like 4 or so. Make sure you replace all of them. I highly doubt
that the gasket kit you speak of included timing cover gaskets, since it
isn't marked as a non-reusable part, though it should be. My timing cover
gaskets only stayed soft because my water pump leaked LOL.
To answer your other questions, you will not need to remove the valve
covers, but you will need to remove the motor mount, along with basically
everything in the 60k tuneup. If you're really interested in replacing the
gaskets, then look up the 60k tune-up in our FAQ pages. You'll need to
follow the same procedure to get to the lower t-belt cover. And while you're
spending the time to go all the way down there, you might as well just do
the 60k service if it's been more than 30k miles.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:33:42 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
funny noise. power steering pump, or wrong belt tension?
Finally after finishing the 60k along with many upgrades, I started my car
today. That left over combustion chamber cleaner sure left a mark!
Getting down to business... I refilled the power steering fluid reservoir
with ATF like specified in the manual since I chose to remove it to do the
60k service. Right after I started the car for the first time, the 4WS OIL
light came on. I turned it off and checked the reservoir. It was
practically empty. I topped it off again and started it again. Once more, got
the 4WS OIL light and reservoir was almost empty. But this time the
remaining fluid turned milky (looks like it has air bubbles in it).
The noise that I heard was somewhere between a scraping sound and a
screeching sound. I heard this noise after about 5 minutes of running
time. Has anyone ever heard this noise from a power steering pump that's
sucking air or running dry? Or is this probably belt tension? I'd rather
not start the car until I have a better idea of what's up.
Thanks in advance,
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:33:57 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
Wait a second. Let's take a step back here. Your dealer is smoking
something FAT and ENJOYING it. The gaskets ARE sold separately. If they
won't order them then they're just lazy. If they don't know about them,
then they either don't CAPS (doubtful) or don't know how to use it (more
likely). Go to Rockville Mitsu. <mitsupartsdirect.com> They've got
brains and they'll get you your gaskets. That's where I got most of them.
The rest of them I ordered from my local dealer (Stevens Creek
Mitsubishi). Each gasket is between 5 to 10 dollars times ...no more than 7 or 8
gaskets for the full set. This is including the lower timing belt cover
gaskets too. They're all for sale. I would post the CAPS part numbers
& PNCs but I'm in a big hurry now. I'll post 'em tonight.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 13:39:11 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
Sorry Cody but you are wrong. Struts, springs and even tie rod ends are
consumable and designed to be replaced. Find me one thing that is not like
consumable that can cost you $4500 of damage to your car! This is a
blunder on Mitsu's part and they are going to pay for it.
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From: cody
Sent: Sunday, November 10,
2002 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made
my belt skip?
I hate to say it... but a tie end is not a consumable part either, nor does
the manual say ANYTHING about them wearing out...
Guess what, Mine broke, as I was driving...
Sorry for your bad luck, but sometimes, shit just happens and it's no ones
fault...
Struts go bad too, and they aren't marked as "consumable, or need to
replace" There's a million other things that are like that...
This not negligence on Mitsu's part... Any time that that gasket would
really come apart is if you remove the covers... Well, any mechanic,
especially a Mitsu-trained mechanic, should catch the fact that that is
eroding, and recommend replacement...
- -Cody
------------------------------
At 02:15 PM 11/10/02 -0600, cody wrote:
>I hate to say it... but a
tie end is not a consumable part either, nor
>does the manual say
ANYTHING about them wearing out...>Guess what, Mine broke, as I was
driving...
>
Been there, done that. It was in the middle of winter, in
the back woods of Michigan. We drove it about 100 miles until we reached
civilization, and found somebody who could weld it so we could drive it
back to Ohio.
It wasn't all that bad. On the highway it was OK, but I had to jump out of
the car in every 90-deg left turn and help the wheel around. On left
turns, it would splay out, so I'd stop, jump out of the car, wrestle the
wheel into the proper direction, and take off again. Guess it helped that
there was lots of snow on the ground and the car only weighed 2000 lb (Datsun
510).
Oops. Did I just tell another rally story? Sorry about that.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:41:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
funny noise. power steering pump, or wrong belt tension?
Riyan,
Did you ever find any fluid? It does sound like an
air
leak...
Roger L
F15DOC
PS - The front plate is now off my 99
front end, but I
am sad to report I now have 2 full thickness screw
holes
in the front of my brand new bumper :(
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:58:01 -0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Anyone want to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
Thanks Jim, I was about to think I was the only one that thinks that a
claim like that is just absurd...
Too many people are lawsuit happy anymore...
Off the Team3S list, unless of course there is tech content from here on
out...
- -Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone want
to take a guess at what made my belt skip?
I looked up one of the upper gaskets in CAPS and then Rockville and found
it to
cost $3.17 --- not very expensive at all.
In terms of getting Mitsu to pay ---- unless they had just completed some
repair work and the belt failed soon after you don't have a chance in hell
!!!!
They are under do obligation to tell you when to change any part. They tell
about oil and maintenance to establish a repair schedule for the warranty
not because they're trying to help you out --- they cover their ass not
yours. If you don't follow their schedule they can deny coverage [ hardly
ever done I would guess ]. Some parts are not reusable and are marked as such,
that is hardly the case with most rubber gaskets --- in most cases they
are
reusable for many years and it's up to you to know when not to put it
back. They don't tell you when to replace the valve cover gaskets but a
piece of that can plug an oil return hole and fry an engine.
They sell you a $300 control arm rather than a $25 ball joint. The 'Y' pipe
gasket is not sold separately --- my auto repair history is littered with
the need for a $2 part and finding I need a $150 assembly.
Jim Berry
================================================
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Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 17:19:35 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
funny noise. power steering pump, or wrong belt tension?
Well, when I emptied the power steering reservoir and let the lines hang
down, lots of fluid was lost. I "topped off" the reservoir rather than
bleed like I should have. I'm pretty sure that's what's causing the air
bubble problem. And because it didn't leak before, I don't think it's a
leak now either. My biggest problem is that I'm not sure if the power steering
air bubbles are what made the funny sound. Doesn't a dry or
air-contaminated pump sound more like a whine than a scratchy or screechy
noise? I thought I did a somewhat acceptable job "playing it by ear" with
the belts. However, in order for the deflection measurement from the
manual to be accurate, you should apply 100lbs. of torque when you measure
it. Being a human, I'm just not that precise. Then again, my belt tension
..could.. be fine. That's why I was looking for a second opinion before I
mess with either of these
*possible* problems.
To bleed the power steering system, I could try to get to that
suction/bleed screw... it's tough to reach though. Could also be a
stripped nut nightmare waiting to happen. And I'm really getting burned
out with all this work. Satan....maybe...?
Also for precise belt tension, I suppose my choices are to take it to satan
or buy a tension gauge. Any other suggestions for either issue, or advice
on what's causing the noise?
------------------------------
Move to Indiana, no front plates required.
Or I suppose you could just "register" your car in Indiana, but you're on
your own on that one...
Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES w/o front license plate
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:01:22 -0800
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: combustion chamber cleaner
I guess it depends on the type of water injection that you have. I
have a full time injection system and not the boost controlled kind.
I have it set to mix about 5% water to gas going into the engine at all
times. After 10k miles when I changed my spark plugs, I could not see a
spec of carbon on the pistons through the spark plug hole and the intake
manifold was clean after the injection point. There was no grime
from oil or carbon from the EGR system on my intake manifold after the
injection point. There was oil grime and carbon before the injection
point. Just my observations.
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:16:18 -0800 (PST)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: ECU update (car started the first time but not since)
I watched my electronics buddy do mine. Had a heck of
a time,
including having to re-drill 2 of the holes.
20 minutes.
And it only cost me lunch ;-)
Glenn
- --- dakken <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
wrote:
> > It's not a 15 min job, to do it properly takes up
> to
2 hours.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:33:09 -0800 (PST)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: funny noise. power steering pump, or wrong belt tension?
I haven't fiddled with the power steering on the
3000gt BUT just
finished replacing the power steering
on the wife's car.
The procedure was to run car for about 3 seconds and
turn it off.
Wait 5 minutes. Refill (if needed) run
again for a couple of seconds.
Repeat and repeat and
repeat. If you've done this maybe 10 times and
the
fluid is still getting milky, start looking for a
loose clamp on the
return side where air can be sucked
in.
Glenn
- --- Riyan Mynuddin <
riyan@hotpop.com> wrote:
> Getting
down to business... I refilled the power
> steering fluid reservoir with
ATF like specified
> in the manual since I chose to remove it to
do
> the 60k service. Right after I started the car
> for the first
time, the 4WS OIL light came on.
> I turned it off and checked the
reservoir. It
> was practically empty. I topped it off again
> and
started it again. Once more, got the 4WS
> OIL light and reservoir was
almost empty. But
> this time the remaining fluid turned milky
>
(looks like it has air bubbles in it).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:51:08 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: funny noise. power steering pump, or wrong belt tension?
There is a special procedure in the manual for properly refilling the power
steering system. It specifically says that if you don't do it, you
will get air in the fluid and frothy fluid don't work so well.
You're supposed to add fluid while cranking (not running) the engine, turning
the steering wheel back and forth, all while the high-tension wire is
disconnected. See page 37A-10 and 37A-11 in the CD version of the
manuals for the details.
- --Erik
BTDT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:36:22 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: New Fuel Pump Rewiring Schematic
I don't think anyone has posted about doing this before, so if I missed it
and someone beat me to it, my apologies :-)
I wasn't happy with the "standard" fuel pump rewiring that most people have
done. This involves running a wire directly from the battery to the
pump through a relay - Jeff has details on this on his site (
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpump-rewire.htm).
The reason I didn't like this method is that when the fuel pump receives
full battery voltage at idle (or low load), the stock fuel pressure
regulator cannot divert enough fuel to the return line to maintain fuel pressure
(43psi - vacuum). Thus idle and low-load fuel pressure is around
7psi higher than it's supposed to be and this requires the ECU to correct
the problem via its trim tables.
Thus I created a new circuit that still allows the fuel pump voltage to
be
reduced(~9.5V) by the ECU under low load AND maintains 12.5-13.0V at the
fuel pump under higher loads. With this setup, my VR-4 no longer
runs even slightly lean under high-fuel-demand conditions. My
circuit also uses less components than the previous rewiring circuit, so
it's cheaper, too :-)
Details Here:
- --Erik
'95 VR-4 with stock fuel system except for above
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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1
#995
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