Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, October 31 2002 Volume
01 : Number 986
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:58:40 -0800 (PST)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
Are you waiting between turning the crank and checking
the
tension? I believe the 60k page says wait 10-15
minutes.
Another possibility is you are off a tooth somewhere.
Perhaps it is
possible your old belt was off. Then
when you transferred the marks to the
new belt - it's
off by one too??
I went forwards and backwards when I did mine and the
tensioner was just
fine.
Glenn
------------------------------
What does it mean when the "tour" light and the "sport" light start
blinking in unison?
Jim W 92 3000GT SL
FIPK, Bored TB, ported & polished heads, 3/4
grind cams, full custom exhaust, Quaife LSD
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:42:32 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
When I did my timing belt, I had to adjust and re-adjust at least 10 times
to get the rod to stay in spec. It's a meticulous procedure, and it
takes a LOT of patience. But it should stay in spec. Mine did.
How are you rotating your engine? I assume you are using the
crankshaft (which is the proper way to do it). When you rotate the
engine by hand, make sure the engine makes two complete revolutions.
When you're doing it, you'll notice that on the right side of the
crankshaft gear/pulley, the belt will be under extreme tension, while
tension will be less on the left side (because you're pulling the belt
clockwise). You need to make sure the "slack" on the right side is
"taken up" after you rotate your engine. What I did was after I made two
complete revolutions, I turned crank gear/pulley VERY SLIGHTLY
counterclockwise (you don't want to turn the engine at all--you just want
to equalize the tension on the belt). Then let the car sit for 10 minutes
or so and THEN check your specs. It's important to let the car sit
because the belt it new and will stretch a bit. Think of it like
putting new guitar strings on. If you've ever played guitar, you'll
appreciate the pain in the a$$ it is to get new strings in tune. Once you
get them to the right tension, they stretch and go out of tune. Same
principle.
Also, what tool are you using to apply 7.2 ft lbs using the "special
tool?" I found that it was VERY difficult to apply the exact
tension. So what I did was make sure I was as close as I could get, and
then let the tensioner do its job. If the rod protrusion on the tensioner
is within spec, then you should be okay. I used a digital caliper to
get an exact reading for rod protrusion.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:03:11 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Suspension
I believe that means that your ECS computer cant "talk" to one of your
struts. Have you leaned up against or put something heavy on the rubber
bumps under your hood?
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:08:11 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
Guys, the transferring of marks thing with chalk from Jeff's site is the
worst thing I have heard for this job! Jeff has an awesome site and I use
it all the time, but transferring timing marks with chalk?! Forget your
marks! Put on the belt, get everything tight and CHECK THE TIMING MARKS ON
THE CAR! All 5 of them! Its not hard.
Many people out there are doing 60k's WAY past when they should have been
done. There is a high likelihood that they may already have skipped a
tooth. Also with the accuracy of chalk marks, the line itself being about
as wide as a tooth, its not easy to mess that up. Jeff, I emailed you
about a 18months ago on this. You GOT TO change those directions!
Just my 2 cents.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:55:49 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
Just line up all your timing marks before you take the old belt off. That's
what I did. Then you don't have to worry about the sequence of
turning the cams.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:27:00 -0800 (PST)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
If you use the 'chalk mark' method. The belt will go
on right the
first time, every time.
If you line up the 5 timing marks and slide the belt
on, you may end up
with the wrong number of teeth
between the gears. Then after turning
the crank you
will find one or more of the timing marks off by 1 or
more
teeth.
Then you must fiddle around to get everything lined up
and
re-tensioned.
I followed the instructions, put the belt on once, and tensioned
once.
Glenn
------------------------------
At 11:15 AM 10/30/02 -0600,
jrwooldr@rockwellcollins.com
wrote:
>What does it mean when the "tour" light and the "sport" light
start
>blinking in unison?
It probably means the plug has pulled out of the top of the strut. Undo the
rubber whoosit at the top of the strut and push the wires back in.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:26:00 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
How to get the timing belt on right?? [another idea]
Alex,
Were you actually able to use both wrenches at the same time? For me, the
torque wrench heads are too big to fit, so I end up doing the timing belt
tension first (it actually holds by itself, pretty darn well). Then, I do
the center bolt after. Usually the process of tightening the center bolt
moves the pulley slightly, so sometimes I end up torquing the belt tension
slightly lower to account for this. It also seems that since the rod goes
retracts in too far every time the engine turns (it never protrudes out
too far), I need to account for this too. I need to find the proper
initial belt torque that will be low enough to account for the pulley moving
while I tighten the belt, and to account for the rod compressing further
as I turn the engine. Another thing to note--when the rod compresses
(retracts) too far, it seems to stay at its new retracted position and
never lose that new position. That's why the above method would work. It's just
something that I thought of tonight as I stared at the ceiling before bed.
After I try this method, I'll actually run the car for a bit in place
(without timing covers or accessory belts) and make sure it holds. My
battery is on the charger tonight, and perhaps this is a method that I should
offer to the FAQ pages since I'm sure that I'm not the first person to
notice that there just isn't enough room to use two torque wrenches
(unless they both have very small
heads!!) Basically you need two beam torque
wrenches, one for small, precise measurements and one for larger ones.
Even then, it won't account for the pulley moving as the center bolt is
torqued. I believe it's always going to be guess and check. I just want to
make sure I do enough checking here, because I don't have the bank account
to buy a new top end when a mis-tensioned belt slips.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:42:55 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
How to get the timing belt on right?? [another idea]
What I had to do is reach around the fender. Have one wrench go in from the
top, and one from the bottom. I even had a second person at one point.
It's not the easiest thing to do, but it's the only way I could get both
of them in there at the same time. Torque the tensioner to 7.2, hold it
there and then torque the center bolt. The way you're doing it now could be
causing all the problems. Whatever you do, don't start the engine until
you get the right protrusion. I noticed that when it was off by even a
little bit, the belt slackened, and I'm sure that it doesn't need much to
jump...
Alex.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:16:24 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
How to get the timing belt on right??
First of all (without getting too cheesy here), let me thank all of you for
helping me do my 60k right, and hopefully not fall into the far too large
pool of stealth/vr4 owners with bent valves and bad valve timing.
1. I am rotating the engine using the crankshaft, the correct way.
2. Didn't equalize the tension like you described. Good idea.
3. I let the car sit the first time, and I assumed that it would have
stretched already. Perhaps that's a bad assumption.
4. I could be off a tooth. I didn't transfer the marks. I just used the
on-vehicle timing marks. This is because my old belt had already slipped
timing on a cam. It was also cut, beaten up, and badly stretched from
leaking oil seals and a leaky water pump gasket (remember how lucky I am
to have a good engine still? :) .
5. I've been using a measuring tape to check the protrusion. Digital (at
least analog) caliper is another great idea. Time to make another run to
Sears.
6. Thanks again.
- -Riyan
****************************************
discussion summary:
"How are you rotating your engine?"
"What I did was after I made two complete revolutions, I
turned crank
gear/pulley VERY SLIGHTLY counterclockwise (you don't want to turn the engine
at all--you just want to equalize the tension on the belt)."
"It's important to let the car sit because the belt it new and will stretch
a bit."
"Are you waiting between turning the crank and checking
the
tension? I believe the 60k page says wait 10-15
minutes."
"Another possibility is you are off a tooth somewhere.
Perhaps it is
possible your old belt was off. Then
when you transferred the marks to the
new belt - it's
off by one too??"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:52:01 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <
repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure?
Eric,
In my 1992 Stealth service manual, it shows that 11.7 psi at
hot idle is the absolute minimum. I think that these pressures are
excellent, if not a little bit high. I don't see any problem here.
Regards, Dave Thrower
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:35:13 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <
repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure? And recent woes with water
pump
Hi Again,
When I changed the fuel filter for the first time
at 126k mi. I simply held the filter over a clean pan and blew into the
outlet (top) of it, and there came out all kinds of junk and crap. Most of
it looked like sand. That's how I normally "look" with these kinds of filters at
work. With the full flow type of filters (they are identical looking to
auto oil filters) that are used on Heavy duty Diesel Engines there, we
just cut them apart with a tailpipe cutter to see all the "junk" trapped
in the paper element. Either way, it's a good gauge of all the trash these
filters trap. Regards, Dave Thrower 92 Stealth R/T
TT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:47:11 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <
repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
Riyan,
I would not worry about it being slightly too tight, as I
would be about it being too loose,(too long). That new timing belt, as
long as it is, will stretch in a few miles, and will be ok. I have
been watching your discussion here and it seems that you have done everything by
the book, so don't worry, and put your car back together. I think you have
done a good and careful job. As long as all of your timing marks are
aligned up properly, you should be good to go for another 60K Mi of
fun. Regards, Dave Thrower 92 Stealth R/T TT
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:15:53 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <
repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure? And recent woes with water
pump
Hey all,
I found something really interesting when I was doing my
cars first 60,000 mi tune up at 126,000 mi. (I bought it in May of this
year with this mileage, and the original owner did nothing but change the
oil every 3k mi) The weep hole for the water pump is directed away from the
timing belt, through a trough to the outside of the timing belt
cover. I thought it was a pretty neat design. I would not worry
about water pump leaks ruining a timing belt, the only thing I would worry
about, is that it got so bad that coolant would get to the waterpump bearing and
"seize it up" and destroy the timing belt that way. Just my two
cents, Dave Thrower
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:04:06 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <
repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: high compression. bad gauge?
14 PSI is the maximum between cylinders variance compression on the
3.0L. Dave Thrower
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:13:28 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
What's "normal" for oil pressure? And recent woes with water pump
Also, as the water pump is failing (before it fully seizes), its bearings
and bearing caps are thrown in the timing belt area. If you hear weird
slapping noises from the internals at random intervals, this could be
water pump bearings bouncing around. While the design of the water pump
may be genius, I still did manage to get plenty of coolant all over my belt.
However, I may be a special case since I'm 8k miles overdue and this is
the 3rd 60k tune-up. I'm not sure how many times the water pump was
changed either, since we know that the dealer won't always change it
unless you ask.
For your oil pressure issue, I'm not too sure what's "normal" (I did notice
that someone already posted the shop spec) but there's many things to keep
in mind. I assume (and hope) that you're not using the stock gauge. If
your car's getting old, get a permanently mounted aftermarket oil pressure
gauge in there. It's good for piece of mind too. I'm aware that there's an oil
pressure switch in the crank area, and whether the switch actually
regulates oil pressure, or just acts as a warning mechanism and displays
the red warning light, I'm really not sure either. But be aware of all
these components. Many of them are cheap to replace, except the oil pump itself.
If finances permit, don't hesitate to buy a new case assembly (includes
the oil pump and surrounding parts).
Another thing from my experiences that may help you out. I use Mobil-1
15W-50 for all my oil changes, but sometimes put cheap filters in there.
After reading many posts and opinions, I'm gonna use Mobil-1 filters (or
mitsu oem) from now on. My car has the red oil pressure light on below
1000 rpm (at idle). It goes away while driving. I'm going to further investigate
this before driving my car more. It's about time to invest in that
aftermarket oil pressure gauge. After doing one of my oil changes, the
light went away for about a good 50 miles of driving, then came back. This
makes me suspect that there's either lots of blow-by or lots of some other
buildup in my engine which is diluting the oil quickly. I want to do cyl.
leakage test to make sure my rings are okay. If they're not, then that
explains the dilution. Excessive bearing clearance will also reduce oil
pressure. If yours is too low, you'll want to get your clearance checked out. If
you catch a bearing when it's getting worn, you'll save a TON of money.
Think about this: Just replacing crank main bearings vs. doing that AND
needing to buy a new crank, maybe even machining or buying a new bottom
end because the bearing seats are scratched up badly. Just more ideas for
ya.
good luck,
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:14:44 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
high compression. bad gauge?
well then I'm right at that limit :/
I better check it periodically.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:29:08 -0500
From: "David Thrower" <
repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: high compression. bad gauge?
Riyan,
In my opinion I would not get so concerned about
compression pressures as long as the engine is running good. From
what I have seen here on the list I would worry more about bearing
condition than anything, that's why when the snow flies here in
Harrisburg, PA., the Stealth is going up on "blocks", and the pan is
coming down to check/replace bearings. With 129K on my engine, I am
looking forward to see what wear there is on them. Results Later,
Dave Thrower
92 R/T TT
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:52:51 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
<<<3. I let the car sit the first time, and I assumed that it
would have stretched already. Perhaps that's a bad
assumption.>>>
That's a bad assumption. You need to let the car sit every time to
get it right. It's a pain, but you should do it. Not only do
you need to stretch the belt, but you need to make sure the belt is seated
properly.
<<4. I could be off a tooth. I didn't transfer the marks. I just
used the on-vehicle timing marks.>>
When you lined up your marks, did you "retard" the mark on the crank by 1
tooth? You need to do that. If you don't, when you apply
tension to the "left" side of the belt, it will rotate the crank and
you'll be off a tooth. Know what I mean?
<<5. I've been using a measuring tape to check the protrusion.
Digital (at least analog) caliper is another great idea. Time to make
another run to Sears.>>
I'd use a caliper if I were you. I used the kind that measures inside
diameters so that when I was done, there was absolutely no question that
the protrusion was within spec.
6. Thanks again.
- -Riyan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:33:50 -0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: Unusually High Knock Sums - What'...
>carbon buildup can also
>increase the static compression ratio by
decreasing the volume of the
>combustion chamber. I've seen guys on these
lists complain of pressures
>in the range of 190+ psi in a compression
check. The only thing to
>account for that is a badly damaged engine or
deposits in the chambers.
Nay. Carbon buildup has a negligible volume. The only reason why it is
harmful is because it heats up unevenly and generates hot spots, which
create pre-ignition.
Someone could see unusually high compression during a compression check
because of soft lifters. When the lifters are soft, the valves open less
than they usually do, thus creating better than normal pumping at low
RPM.
Philip
------------------------------
Guess it's official. No adjustable performance shocks are coming our way
from KYB. None of you wrote or e-mailed to the product manager asking for
shocks, so I guess I'll look elsewhere. Penske, maybe. I had something
going with a Penske rep last year to develop some custom shocks, but the
project fizzled.
Rich
Here's the official KYB response to my recent query:
>I have not received any 3000GT AGX requests other than yours.
The
adjustable struts and shocks are not available for the Mitsubishi GTO in Japan
so I doubt that we will develop them for the US versions. Chuck
Gonwa KYB America LLC Product Manager
Phone: (630)
620-5555
Fax: (630) 620-8133
E-Mail :
chuck@kyb.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:55:34 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
3S-Racers: Official KYB response II
The issue now seems to be ---- why use Ground Control when we have
two other choices which seem better. I have the GC/GAB/Eibach setup and am
happy with it, however were I to redo my system I would go with Tein or
JIC. The amount I spent on the GC setup was comparable to the newer
systems and I really like the idea of not losing any shock travel as in
the JIC setup.
You could get a reasonable amount for your GC parts [ 60¢ on the $ ] and
get a better system. I'm not sure about the selection of springs from the
other two --- Eibach seems to have everything from 200# to 2000#. Eibach
would probably fit on the Tein or JIC if necessary.
They advertise these shocks as being rebuildable but Tein says you have to
send them to the factory --- in Japan ---- yeah like that's gonna
happen.
Do like I do --- raid your grandchildren's college fund.
Jim Berry
==================================================
------------------------------
At 07:55 AM 10/31/02 -0800, fastmax wrote:
>The issue now seems to
be ---- why use Ground Control when we have two
>other choices
which seem better. I have the GC/GAB/Eibach setup and am
>happy with it,
however were I to redo my system I would go with Tein or
>JIC.
Me too.
Maybe I'll see what GC has to say about all this.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:12:52 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Official KYB response II
I believe JIC has a rebuild center in California. Tein has recently
stepped up their US presence as well, and they may have rebuild
capabilities on this continent now.
- - Brian
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:21:48 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
was: high compression. bad gauge? [now: checking bearings]
Yes, I have heard enough from the list to make me want to check my bearings
as well (esp. with 188k miles!). Can I do this by myself, or should I pay
satan?
- -----Original Message-----
From: David Thrower
[mailto:repairerr@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:29
PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: high compression. bad gauge?
Riyan,
In my opinion I would not get so concerned about
compression pressures as long as the engine is running good. From
what I have seen here on the list I would worry more about bearing
condition than anything, that's why when the snow flies here in
Harrisburg, PA., the Stealth is going up on "blocks", and the pan is
coming down to check/replace bearings. With 129K on my engine, I am
looking forward to see what wear there is on them. Results Later,
Dave Thrower
92 R/T TT
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:44:50 -0500
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.comSubject:
Team3S: re: Unusually High Knock Sums - What's the Deal?
Thanks for your ideas on this problem. Most of the responses to my
questions suggest carbon build-up, bad motor mounts, bad knock sensor, or
weak ignition system as the cause.
I checked the compression not long ago, and was getting 155 to 160psi in
all 6 cylinders. At that time, I also flushed out and cleaned the intake
plenum and intake manifold, if that makes any difference. The plugs and
wires are not very old, but I'm still running with the stock coils.
So before I spend hundreds of dollars, is there a way to determine if the
motor mounts are bad? Of the 4 mounts, which ones are usually suspect? Is
the rear mount tough to get to? And likewise, is it possible to determine
if the knock sensor is bad?
Thanks again.
Jeff W.
'92VR4
Belleville, MI
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:30:33 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Coilover poll
Hi guys/gals, could anyone who is in the position to buy either the Tein HA
or JIC FLT-A2 set up send me an email OFF LIST
Reason I ask is I have a contact that may be willing to do a group buy but
I want to get a count of the number of people who are ready to buy in the
next 3-4 weeks.
FYI the HA's retail 1450 (with pillow ball mounts) and the FLT A2's retail
for 1900
I will cc the list as I sort out the last few details (price, having them
drop shipped to each person's house, etc...)
It seems there is some dissatisfaction with what "inexpensive" suspension
upgrade options there are available for our cars.
Russ Furman
CT
93 VR-4 (currently under the knife)
------------------------------
My '92VR4 has some suspension and steering issues that I can't figure out.
It's got 151K miles on it, and I drive it over the Michigan potholes
everyday.
1) The steering feels loose. I replaced the tie rod ends 28K miles ago, the
front wheel bearings 5K miles ago, and the lower control arms 16K miles
ago. Front alignment is perfect. Rear alignment is off a bit (it squats a
little with the tops of the tires leaning inward) and I'm told this can't
be fixed easily. But I don't know how this would cause slack in the steering. Is
it possible that the steering gear has worn? Is there an adjustment for
this? What else could be causing this?
2) The car seems to "float" down the road. It doesn't feel tight and firm
like it once did. It exhibits a significant amount of "roll" in turns.
Switching the ECS to "sport" helps, but it's still not near as tight as it
once was. I replaced the struts with stock replacements 51K miles ago.
They don't appear to be leaking and they don't make that "knocking" sound like
the old struts did when they wore out. I installed new tires and wheels
last week, but this didn't help. The car still sits high like it always
has, and doesn't appear to "sag" like I would expect it to if the springs
were weak. Any ideas?
Thanks.
Jeff W.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:35:29 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
How to get the timing belt on right??
3. I'll note that and let it sit to stretch every time.
4. I know exactly what you mean. This is that part of the manual that I
read like 5 times before I even started the 60k tune-up :) So yes, I
did retard the mark on the crank like as the shop manual indicates.
5. I got a hold of a ruler with a slide dial for $3.49 that reads 32nds of
an inch. If I try this slide rule out and if I don't feel comfortable (I
bet I won't feel comfortable...being the perfectionist I am), I'll check
home depot or some other hardware store because sears only had calipers
that measure point to point lengths, not inside diameters. Actually I think they
might have had a few that do insides, but the measurement heads were too
big to fit in that tiny space.
I'll be sure to note part numbers for the FAQ update.
***
I was planning on doing the belt yesterday or today, but I'm just getting
so tied up with other things. My cleaned/flow matched 450cc injectors come
in tomorrow, so maybe I'll just do everything tomorrow.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:24:35 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
was: high compression. bad gauge? [now: checking bearings]
AFAIK, checking the bearings involves removing the engine and tearing it
down completely. I've only done this on a Honda bike engine, but we had
the engine out on a table and split the crank case. If you're gonna
undertake a project like that, you might as well just replace the innards
while you're at it (forged pistons, maybe over bore, etc...), because the work
involved in getting to the bearings is the same as the work in getting to
the pistons and stuff...
Alex.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:30:09 EST
From:
MerisaPDX@aol.comSubject: Team3S:
Automatic Transmission Meltdown - HELP????
I have a 1991 Stealth RT DOHC non TT. I have had the car for 4 years
and in
the course of 4 years I have gone through 4 transmissions, 2 used and
the
last 2 rebuilt.
Last night the last transmission that I had put in my car, with less than
6,000 miles on the transmission, decided to treat itself apart last
night.
The transmission is under warranty so it is being replaced as
we speak.
I have had it with this car and am wanting to sell it. The car has
new tires
on it P245 45 ZR 16, new brakes all around, a total rebuild on the
motor, a
pioneer CD player, and soon a new automatic transmission. In
the next 30
days I will also be replacing the struts as well. If
anyone would be
interested in this California car please let me know.
By the way, the
interior is leather and the exterior is Teal Blue (factory
color).
Merrisa Coleman
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:25:50 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: checking bearings
"Alex Pedenko" wrote: "AFAIK, checking the bearings involves removing the
engine and tearing it down completely."
-
-------------------------------------------
Rod bearings are completely
accessible with the oil pan removed (and the crank
left in place).
I goes without saying that the engine should be removed and torn apart to
replace crank main bearings.
This list had an extensive discussion about "preventive maintenance"
replacement of rod bearings in August 2001. Below is Cyrus's great
post:
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
NassiriC@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday,
August 16, 2001 4:35 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Rod bearing preventative
maintenance?
>>He suggested changing the rod
>>bearings every 20-30K
miles. That's right. Make it part of the regular
>>maintenance
programs for our cars - like changing tranny fluid. Replace
>>them
before they have a chance to ruin the crank.
I would never take my car back to someone that suggested this!!
Ok, finally an area I'm an expert in. I don't know the Mitsu engine
that
well, but I know just about everything there is to know about
re-building
bottom ends for hi-po motors like circle track V-8's which spin
above 8000
rpm for more then 25 minutes at a time - that's like spinning
your Mitsu
motor at 9500 rpm for almost half an hour - anybody want to try
it?
1. Bearings (rod or main) fail because of a mistake made by the
engine
builder, either in not addressing the shortcomings of the oiling
system, or
just improperly installing them. If you're changing your
bearings every 20 -
30k miles, there is something wrong. STOP, have it
checked out.
2. Properly installed and prepped bearings WILL NOT FAIL!!!! There is
always
a good reason for a bearing failure, for rod bearings, it is usually
improper
rod side clearance that leads to poor or improper oil travel.
Excessive side
clearance can actually be considered an oil leak in many V-8
motors. If #5
and #6 are the ones that always seem to die, chances are
that not enough oil
is getting back there. Given that all other
factors check out (no oil
starvation do to low levels, or high side loads in
racing) this is probably
due to improper side clearances, or just a poor
oiling design, either way it
can be fixed.
3. Installing rod bearings by pulling the oil pan and taking the old
ones
out and putting the new ones in is a perfect way to ENSURE that your
bearings
will only last 5 - 15K miles!!!!! This method is OK for the
family
grocery-getter that will never see a tick above 4000 rpm, but it has
no place
in a 400 hp motor that regularly spins to 7000 rpm!!!
Changing bearings 'in
the field' is like performing surgery in a septic tank
- there are sooooo
many things wrong with it! Bearings need to be
torqued and clearanced
properly, and everything needs to be painfully
CLEAN!!! Professional engine
builders don't even spray thin film oil
between the bearing and the saddle
when they are installing/clearancing
them, because even a micro fine layer of
wd-40 will throw off clearances and
torque settings. Do you ever wonder why
auto manufacturers spend
hundreds of millions of dollars on 'Clean' rooms to
assemble their
engines? And all this expense is for your average, every-day,
motor,
things get even tighter when you start talking about motors that are
putting
out 2.5 hp per cubic inch, which a lot of our motors are doing.
So what do you do about rod bearings?
1. Make sure nothing is wrong with the crank;
-
Check for runout - has the crank been dropped or mishandled before?
Cranks look and feel bullet proof, but just dropping one on it's side is
enough to destroy it. Also, the slightest nick or scratch in a bearing
journal means the crank needs to be ground/polished.
-
Magnaflux for cracks - if you've broken parts like pistons or rods,
chances
are good the crank may be damaged - Magnafluxing is cheap insurance -
while
your at it, Magnaflux your rods, if they check out, have them
shotpeened and
heat treated or cryoed if you're really serious.
- check
for correct end-play, and all associated tolerances
-
check the location of the oil galleries for each rod journal, there is
a
possibility that they are not centered on the bearing correctly, if they
aren't, there are things a professional crank builder can do, or you may
need
a new crank.
2. Make sure nothing is wrong with your mains, have them align bored
if
necessary. Also carefully check main bearing clearances and torque
settings.
3. Have a professional look at your crank. There may be some
shortcomings
in the design. By chamfering oiling holes and radiusing
certain parts, oil
flow can be dramatically improved.
I know a lot of people are thinking "Hmmm, this guy is nuts, it is easier
just to change bearings every 25000 miles". That's kind of like
saying:
"It's easier to change livers every 10 years then to stop
drinking". Bearings
don't always 'spin', a lot of times they 'seize', when
this happens, you'll
have to buy and entirely new long block, and
potentially new turbos and
exhaust manifolds. Also, if a bearing has
'spun', your crank should been
re-ground/polished, and the big end of the
rod should be resized, if you
don't do this, you should practice apologizing
to the other racers for all
the oil your 'motor grenade' just spilled on the
track.
In short, if you're pushing your motor, which most of us are, it needs to
be
seriously prepped. Blueprinting a motor may cost a bit and
generally doesn't
add much HP, but it's a lot nicer and cheaper then
collecting little engine
parts off the track. Plus a properly prepared
Mitsu motor should spin up to
8000 rpm before valve float or head breathing
become a problem, if you can
hold boost to that level, you're talking about
some serious HP gains. Side
note: Because we are ultimately limited in
power by detonation cause by
excessive boost, adding rpm is a great way to
make more HP. If you make 300
ft/lbs of torque at 7000rpm , you get
399 hp, by holding that torque for just
another 1000 rpm, you get an added
57 HP! I would never spin my stock motor
to those levels, but as soon
as it dies, I'll rebuild it properly, and
blueprint the bottom end, and rev
it to 8000 rpm all day long.
Caveat: I've made a lot of 'blanket' statements here, and I'm sure
someone
has an anecdotal story about their Uncle Bob's friend that rebuild a
motor in
a sand storm using only chewing gum and duct-tape, and the motor
lasted
500,000 miles ….. yada yada yada. In real life, I've spend
thousands of
hours working with/reading about/and watching motors on the
track and in the
dyno cell. The one thing I've learned is that you can
pay now and enjoy your
car, or you can save your money now, worry about your
motor the whole time,
and feel like a real ass as you sit in the passengers
seat of your
girlfriends Hyundai, and watch your beloved car being trucked
down the
freeway on the back of a tow truck.
End of Rant
Cyrus
------------------------------
>Do you ever wonder why
>auto manufacturers spend hundreds of
millions
>of dollars on 'Clean' rooms to
>assemble their
engines?
I just wanted to say that I have no comment on that. ;-)
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:52:27 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
New possibility re: spring/strut/coilover discussion...
Like many of you, I'm looking for an upgrade for my current setup, which is
Eibach ProKit springs with KYB (phooey) struts, and I've been talking to
one of the NASA instructors, who has his own shop... He had
suggested that I NOT get the KYBs, since "they've got a lousy return rate,
that's just not tough enough for racing", but I didn't listen...
;-(
He told me today about two more possibilities that no one else has
mentioned on Team3S. (BTW, the guy has a thick accent, and I don't
fully understand all he was saying on the phone, so I'll have to research
it further. And I want to see real specs before I consider it.) I'm
not in the position
(financially) to do anything until the beginning of
next year, but before you guys commit to a group buy, I want to throw
these "late entries" out to you... These are 2 systems which were formerly
(until this month) only available on special order from Japan, but will now
be distributed in the US. I'll leave it up to you guys to follow up
on the names and web searches, since I don't have the time (nor the need)
right now...
1). H&K springs with Billstein(sp?) struts - a medium-grade
coilover racing setup which is what many of his fellow racers use.
They just came out with this milder "flavor" of this racing system, which
used to cost ~$2500+ on special order from Japan; his cost is just over
$1100, so he'll be selling for $1300 or so for group buys. He's
still gathering the info and will be forwarding to me in the next few
days, but perhaps you dudes/dudettes can find out about it sooner.
The system is adjustable (at installation) with spring rates from 300# to
#1000#, but I don't think it's adjustable at the track. Again, stay
tuned...
2). Tokico "Alumina-R" Setup. Made by the same folks who make
Mitsu struts, this is a steel version of the Aluminum/Titanium coilover
racing setup that many pro racers use, (which is in the $3k to $20k
range). He said it has the SAME guts, but is heavier than the pro setup
because of the steel. And a wide range of adjustments, same as the
system above. I don't know about adjustments at the track.
With so many performance cars currently available, Tokico sees an American
market for people who want a bit more performance for street and track. He
suggested that at ~$1300 cost, he'd be selling them for under $1500.
That's all I've got for now, but he was very excited about these systems
as
being applicable to my car. He's ridden with me racing, and
worked on my
car. He's driven it at the track, too, to help me with my
setup, so he knows my car and what it needs. Let's hope he is on to
something... I'll get more info to you folks as soon as he gets it
out to me.
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:03:43 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: New possibility re: spring/strut/coilover discussion. ..
Thanks Bob, well finally we have more options. Now the question is
what will be the most cost effective for us? I hope it is one of
these newer options you just mentioned.
I still have not fully gotten the original GB off the ground and will have
to see if maybe we can add these in as options....
And Bob could you talk to your guy for pricing for the TEIN's and JIC's and
send me a line? I really am looking to get the most for my buck and
bring a few people along for the ride......
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:14:12 -0700
From: Desert Fox <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 17" vs. 18"
I just got my snow tires on the other day as we have had 3 days of snow
this week and temperatures around 0°F. My Pirelli Snow Sport 235/45R17 on
the Mile Miglia Spider 17" rims ride so much better than my stock 18"
chromies. Mostly because the OEM wheels were abused by the previous owner
and I've put a couple of dents in them myself.
Seems like a lot of you track racing VR-4 types use 17" for their racing
tires. It seems to me that the 18" give tighter handling and harsher ride.
But for daily driving, the coo shier ride of the slightly higher profile
tire sure is nice. Has anybody noticed any disadvantage to running the 17"
wheels instead of the 18"? Faster? Slower cornering? More body roll?
I'm just thinking that since the difference in ride is so dramatic, I
should really start thinking about replacing the OEM 18" chromies that
are, well, thrashed.
So lets hear it! Do I get another set of 17" or do I replace the OEM 18"
wheels with other 18"?
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi
exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:15:49 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
17" vs. 18"
In my case the decision to stay with the 17" rims was dictated by the
manufacturers --- 17" R compound tires are as much as $50 per tire less
than their 18" counterparts or they don't offer a race tire in 18" at all.
Yokohama and Kumho don't offer an 18" on their race tires. I've only used
17" so I have no info on the other sizes. Test's done by some of the car mags
show little difference between the 17", 18" or 19" wheel/tire
combos.
Jim Berry
==================================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Desert Fox" <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Sent:
Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:14 PM
Subject: Team3S: 17" vs. 18"
> I just got my snow tires on the other day as we have had 3 days of
> snow this week and temperatures around 0°F. My Pirelli Snow Sport
> 235/45R17 on the Mile Miglia Spider 17" rims ride so much better than
> my stock 18" chromies. Mostly because the OEM wheels were abused by
> the previous owner and I've put a couple of dents in them
myself.
>
> Seems like a lot of you track racing VR-4 types use 17"
for their
> racing tires. It seems to me that the 18" give tighter
handling and
> harsher ride. But for daily driving, the coo shier ride of
the
> slightly higher profile tire sure is nice. Has anybody noticed any
> disadvantage to running the 17" wheels instead of the 18"? Faster?
> Slower cornering? More body roll?
>
> I'm just thinking
that since the difference in ride is so dramatic, I
> should really start
thinking about replacing the OEM 18" chromies that
> are, well,
thrashed.
>
> So lets hear it! Do I get another set of 17" or do I
replace the OEM
> 18" wheels with other 18"?
------------------------------
I have a choice between buying an $800 dual pass aluminum racing radiator
from PPE or a $600 single pass radiator from DarkSide. Both radiators are
built by the same company (C&R Racing). I've asked C&R what they
think, and am waiting as fast as I can for their response.
I'm ready to buy one or the other. I need a racing rad bad.
Opinions?
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:35:51 -0500
From: "bob atkins" <
ratkins@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 17" vs. 18"
Kumho does offer 18" in their new race tire the ecsta v700
I just put a
set of 265x35x18 on 2nd set of rims Monday - at $185
per
though - and 18" are clearly more limited in brand / model / size
than 17"
bob atkins (g8rbob)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:48:49 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
3S-Racers: Radiators
dual Pass !!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1
#986
***************************************