Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, October 30 2002 Volume
01 : Number 985
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 04:10:00 +0000
From: "Joshua Keena" <
teamkeena@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Unusually High Knock Sums - What'...
Carbon build up in the combustion chamber does cause pre-ignition, or
knock,
but not from increased pressures. As pressure rises in the
combustion
chamber, these small carbon particles glow from the intense heat
and
pressure. The carbon build up acts as a virtual glow-plug, which
leads to
knocking or pre-ignition.
As engines wear, compression usually
decreases in the combustion chamber as
tolerances expand from material loss
("blow-by").
Josh Keena
===================================================
An additional thing
to check ---- with that many miles on the car you should
do a compression
check. It's possible there has been a lot of carbon buildup
which increases
compression and thus increases the propensity for
detonation.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:17:50 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
106,295 oil change = expensive [kinda long]
Jim-
So you took off the covers and checked the timing? How far out of time, and
which cam(s) slipped?
The process of installing the auto tensioner is this. The timing belt must
be tensioned manually to 7.2ft lbs against the auto tensioner spring.
Then, simultaneously, the center bolt on the tensioner pulley must be
torqued to 42 ft.lbs. When the center bolt is being torqued, the tensioner
MUST NOT move. If the pin does not go back into the tensioner after the engine
is turned a few times (manually) then at least the rod protrusion should
be within spec before the timing covers are replaced etc... Afterwards,
during reassembly, the engine must not be turned backwards. If it is
turned backwards, the precautions taken in adjusting the tensioner perfectly are
next to useless. I am doing my reassembly right now, and I always end up
turning the damn engine backwards when I replace and remove the crankshaft
pulley (which will need to be done many times). Every time I turn the
engine backwards, the rod protrusion goes out of spec!! So if this process is
not done properly, the cams can and will most likely slip. This is why
I've spent DAYS on this. I keep looking at that stupid rod and keep
needing to put that tensioner in a vise again...ugh. Worst part--I live in
an apartment complex. Convenient huh? Just imagine a dealer trying to do
this right. Okay I'm done.
Getting back to the point, my front bank exhaust cam slipped slightly (3
teeth). This is either because the last 60K was not done properly, or
because the water pump leaking coolant all over the belt made things a
little...unhappy?
Now after this point, I will have trouble explaining things to you, but I
will try. Perhaps another member can contribute more.... Here goes.
If exhaust timing is off, valves can get burned if they close too early.
The valve will close before all the exhaust gasses can exit. After driving
like this for awhile and the exhaust valve is superheated and cooled again and
again, the sealing capability of the valve is ruined. Also, as the valve
material is burning off, maybe it is somehow making its way into the oil?
And burned valves will reduce engine compression which will force the
engine to work harder to produce less power (not good!). As far as the intake
cams, if an intake cam slips then I hear you are likely to bend valves,
because being an interference engine, the valves and pistons share the
same air space, just alternately. If the timing jumps too far, and the
valves are bent, you will lose more compression and if you continue to drive
this way, who knows what else could happen. I would assume camshaft
wear... and if left unattended could even cause cylinder head damage after
the top end bearings get eaten up.
Now if all you did was spin a rod bearing, I'm not really sure of what you
have on this guy. As I tried to explain your rod bearing failure, I felt
sort of like I was putting together a puzzle that didn't fit perfectly.
Our cars seem quite prone to bearing failure in the first place. You could
have also had a bad oil pump or let the engine oil run low. Taking the guy to
court, you will most likely be accused of letting your engine run low on
oil. So if you do routine oil changes, start scrounging up ALL those old,
junky, crumpled up service receipts now! If you do those oil changes
yourself, find those sales receipts from you local auto parts store. They
may even have a database that you could beg them to look up for you. I can
make the assumption that driving on bent intake valves would wear down the
valves + guides and this could also be where the metal contamination came
from, but from what you are saying, it doesn't sound like you bent a valve
(did you?)...things would be running much worse if so. Perhaps you need to do a
cylinder leakage test since that's the best way to figure things out for
sure.
Good luck,
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt...still in pieces...has been for
way too long.
************
Jim wrote:
My dealer miss-installed the tensioner. I drove it out of time nearly
4K miles. The second time, the same thing. Then my engine
started knocking, spun a rod bearing most likely from metal
contamination. I will have to take him to court. Could you elaborate
some, and what would be the damage from running out of time?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:21:30 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Fuel Cut
I'd bet my salary that very few persons, if any, in the "general" consumer
population know or even care about "A/N," fuel cut, etc., or can
make the jump or distinction made by Jeff. At least the engine
coolant temperature gauge measures what it is labeled to measure--the engine
coolant temperature. Not many persons of the "general" consumer
population really care what the actual temperature of their coolant is.
They just want to know whether their engine is overheating or not, and
that gauge serves that purpose. The "turbo meter" doesn't measure what it
is labeled to measure, and therefore, at least to the every-day, typical
member of the "general" consumer population (the population that, like it
or not, the Stealth/3KGT was built and marketed for), the meter is
worthless.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius
[mailto:jlucius@stealth316.com]
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 5:43
PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Cut
>> ... is worthless. But that's just my take :-)
Erik, using your line or reasoning, the engine coolant temp meter is also
worthless because it displays no numeric information whatsoever - it has
"tick
marks that correspond to absolutely nothing". :)
To be correct, the meter does not "measure airflow" as you state. The MAS
does
that. The "turbo meter" measures nothing, but does display basically
the
engine load, or the calculated air volume per cylinder per engine
revolution -
called "A/N".
The A/N value that the "boost meter" displays is the very basis for the
calculation of the fuel injector activation time and the stock boost control
solenoid duty cycle. There is no other engine operating value/condition that
is more important in determining these two duty cycles.
I agree that the value displayed by the boost meter does not necessarily or
accurately represent the relative intake manifold pressure (vacuum
or
boost) -
and in that sense it has little value as a boost meter.
But the information displayed reveals the very basis for the most essential
of
engine operations - that of mixing fuel and air in the correct
proportions for
the desired goal (economy or power, as examples). Hardly
worthless information
by any reasonable standard. But also, hardly
information that might be
valuable or useful to us as tuners. The "boost
meter" is mostly just a
curiosity unless we can quantify its display somehow
(maybe some ingenious
member can use the datalogger info to do this?).
It is too bad, though, that the display range does not cover the full range
of
A/N values and is not marked in units that are relevant to engine load
(I'm
not sure what those would be exactly).
However, a pegged meter does suggest that the
"overboost-protection"
fuel-
cut "feature" could be initiated soon by the
ECM. So maybe it is partly
valuable as a "warning" device (warning the
driver that the ECM may shortly
try to slam his face into the steering wheel
by cutting power to the fuel
injectors). :)
Mitsu should have supplied a real boost gauge (a super-easy task as any of
us
know that have installed vacuum-boost gauges). Mitsu even installed a MAP
sensor (manifold absolute pressure) in 1996 and newer models. Sadly,
the
measurements are only used for testing and regulating the EGR valve.
Page 14-56 of the 1990 Laser Technical Information Manual and page 14-57 of
the Talon TIM (see Manual on CD) document how the "boost meter" works. Page
14- 2 of the 1991 Stealth TIM states that the electronic control of the 3S
fuel
injection system is basically the same as that used in the
Laser/Talon.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Sent: Monday,
October 28, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fuel Cut
Ok, so perhaps our definitions of worthless are not the same... IMHO, a
gauge that is labeled "turbo symbol", yet reads A/N; has units of "psi",
but measures airflow; has numerical labels and tick marks that correspond
to absolutely nothing; and regularly pegs the needle at the upper end of
the gauge under normal driving... is worthless. But that's just my take
:-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:27:34 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Unusually High Knock Sums - What'...
What you describe is correct --- however --- carbon buildup can also
increase the static compression ratio by decreasing the volume of the
combustion chamber. I've seen guys on these lists complain of pressures in
the range of 190+ psi in a compression check. The only thing to account
for that is a badly damaged engine or deposits in the chambers.
Pre-ignition is caused by hot spots [ carbon 'points' ] while knock
is
caused by the simultaneous ignition of unburned end gasses. Uneven fuel
distribution in turn causes uneven flame fronts which leaves areas in the
combustion chamber susceptible to this simultaneous explosion. Modern
engines are designed with quench [ areas to remove heat from the A/F
mixture ] and swirl [ areas that will cause turbulence in the combustion chamber
for better mixing of the air/fuel ] to help eliminate knock. Buildup of
carbon can defeat that design.
Jim Berry
================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:02:57 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Spark Plug Wires
I don't know that there is a consensus on this, but are there any real
advantages to using something other than the OEM spark plug wires?
On the FAQ page, the recommendation is NOT to upgrade to Magnecor, Accel,
etc., as many members have had problems with them. It is unclear
what types of problems they are having. Still other members
recommend using Accel Thundersports, Magnecor KV85s and others.
Since I've now put my car away for the winter, I'm going to take the
opportunity to install some upgrades, etc. and replace the plugs and
wires. Thanks for your input.
Joe
91 Stealth TT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:25:23 -0800
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Spark Plug Wires
> I don't know that there is a consensus on this, but are there any real
> advantages to using something other than the OEM spark plug
wires? On
> the FAQ page, the recommendation is NOT to upgrade to
Magnecor, Accel,
> etc., as many members have had problems with
them. It is unclear what
> types of problems they are having.
Still other members recommend
> using Accel Thundersports, Magnecor KV85s
and others. Since I've now
> put my car away for the winter, I'm
going to take the opportunity to
> install some upgrades, etc. and
replace the plugs and wires. Thanks
> for your input.
In my personal opinion, the problem is not in our spark plug wires. I
think it is in our ignition coils. The stock ignition coils seem to
be marginal at stock boost levels and a roll of the dice as to whether
they will be able to still fire at anything higher than stock. I know that
my coils were marginal at stock boost. It depended on the engine
temperature, how long the engine had been running, and the position of the
stars in the sky as to whether all my cylinders were firing at idle and if
I would get spark blow out under boost. This was at just 9 psi.
Anything over and it was a hesitation nightmare. If you have high
miles on your coils then it may be time to replace them anyway.
Many other members have problems with them and they go through countless
combinations of spark plugs and wires looking for that "magic" combination
that eliminates spark blow out. Once they find the magic combination
then they proclaim to everyone else that brand X and Y are bad but brand Z
is the only way to go. I haven't seen a single member with upgraded coils
complain about spark blowout regardless of what plugs or wires they are
running. I believe that if you upgrade the coils then the brand of
wire that you use won't be a factor at all.
You can build your own coil packs with Accel coils or you can buy a premade
plug and play coil and wire set from Dynamic Racing for $550. No
drilling, crimping or figuring anything out is needed with the DR
coils. I made my own using motorcycle coils. Many other members used
the GM coils. With GM coils, it costs about $130 to $190 for the
parts depending on where you buy them and what kind of wires (if any) that
you buy with the new coils. The motorcycle coil packs will run $200
but includes wires.
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:48:16 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Unusually High Knock Sums - What'...
> Carbon build up in the combustion chamber does cause
>
pre-ignition, or knock, but not from increased
> pressures. As
pressure rises in the combustion
> chamber, these small carbon particles
glow from the
> intense heat and pressure.
Unless, of course, you have a nice, smooth, thick layer of carbon on your
piston tops and on your combustion chamber surfaces.... If you see
240psi compression (~12:1) in your engine, then detonation from
compression pressures certainly could be an issue. AMHIK :-) You may
get pinging/knock, but lemme tell ya, the engine braking is
phenomenal...
- --Erik
------------------------------
Are there instructions on anyone's site for replacing rear wheel
bearings?
I tried 3Si.org, John's Repair shop, and web sites for Hans Ertl and Dave
Black. I'd search our archives if I knew how, because I recall such a
discussion around here recently.
Thanks.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
When I yank on the emergency brake, I get a loud clunk from the right rear.
I took it up to Denny's Mufflers in Cedar Rapids, we put it on a rack, and
disassembled the right rear brakes. Everything looks normal and tight. The
little drum brakes are hardly worn.
So we ran it on the rack, with me accelerating in gear and yanking on the e
brake. Wham! Wham! Wham!
The whole drivetrain, front and rear, clunks when I pull the brake. It's
especially bad at the RR e brake, but it clunks everywhere. It DOES NOT
clunk when using the regular brakes.
We found a bad left rear wheel bearing, a worn RR wheel bearing, worn motor
mounts, and a worn right inner tie rod end. But nothing really explains
why the drive train clunks so bad.
Any ideas?
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4
------------------------------
"We found a bad left rear wheel bearing, a worn RR wheel bearing, worn
motor mounts, and a worn right inner tie rod end. But nothing really
explains why the drive train clunks so bad."
If the motor mounts are bad, that alone can make the whole drive train go
clunk, clunk, clunk when you brake abruptly. Glad to hear you are
replacing your rear wheel bearings. I took mine to the shop to have
it done and they refused because they said they weren't bad. I guess they didn't
want my $300.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:51:38 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: I shudder to ask this...
Mine does that too, and has done it for the 8 years I've owned my car.
------------------------------
At 03:41 PM 10/29/02 -0600, you wrote:
>If the motor mounts are bad,
that alone can make the whole drive train
>go clunk, clunk, clunk when
you brake abruptly.
I guess that makes sense. The RR is as far away as you can get from the
upper motor mount in the LF of the car. I suppose the loose motor mount
could create a torque moment that propagates through the system and
manifests itself as a loud clunk in the RR.
(I'm not sure what I just said...it just kinda popped into my pea brain
from gawdonlyknows where in my past. It's been happening a lot lately,
daddio).
Somebody else suggested U joints, but we checked most of them by
hand.
Rich
------------------------------
At 04:51 PM 10/29/02 -0500, Starkey, Jr., Joseph wrote:
>Mine does
that too, and has done it for the 8 years I've owned my car.
Mine just started doing this recently.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:57:10 -0500
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph"
<
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: I shudder to ask this...
To clarify my earlier response, when I'm moving forward, if I pull up on my
e-brake, I get ONE clunk, and then silence, not repeated clunks.
Everything check out okay on my car, so I just always assumed it was the
shoes seating or something like that.
------------------------------
At 04:57 PM 10/29/02 -0500, Starkey, Jr., Joseph wrote:
>To clarify
my earlier response, when I'm moving forward, if I pull up
>on my
e-brake, I get ONE clunk, and then silence, not repeated clunks.
>Everything check out okay on my car, so I just always assumed it was
>the shoes seating or something like that.
Me, too. Just one clunk when driving around. But when we put it on the
rack, we could clunk it at will.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:02:43 -0500
From: Mark Frouhar <
mfrouhar@bear.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Need to get my bearings
My post wasn't too terribly descriptive but I'll attach it anyway in case
it helps.
good luck
_________________________________________________________________
It's not terrible, but if things are really seized it can be challenging I
suppose.
You'll need to get the caliper/rotor off, then you'll either
have to hammer slide the axle out or carefully hammer it from the other
side(inwards) after disconnecting the
four bolts that couple it. You
will definitely want to press off the old and press on
the new bearing, that
sucker is a real interference fit. The shop charged me $20 or
so to do
that. Take notes on where the bearing hat (dust cover) goes.
____________________________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:41:51 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure?
Anyone know for a VR-4? Or just for 4-stroke, internal combustion,
wet-sump, engines in general?
In case anyone is interested, here's what I see in my VR-4 with my
newly-installed real (as opposed to the stock POS) oil pressure
gauge:
Idle, Immediately after Startup: 55psi
3000RPM unloaded, Cold
Engine: 140+psi (pegged)
2000-4000RPM loaded, Hot Engine:
55-85psi
Idle, Hot Engine: 20-23psi (seems low)
- --Erik
'95 VR-4 with Mobil1 5w30 in 50F weather
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:54:38 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: Team3S: Do
StopLeak products work?
I saw some StopLeak for engine oil and Tranny fluid at Schucks. Do those
work or is it all BS?
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:19:53 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Do StopLeak products work?
They work just fine if you like clogging up the oil feed lines to your
turbos. :)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:26:55 -0500
From: "Rodriguez,
Elpidio x35617d1" <
x35617@exmail.usma.army.mil>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Do StopLeak products work?
The last and only time I used a StopLeak product was to try to "fix" a
small oil leak in my '90 celica. Though it was dripping a few drops of
oil, the engine was running perfectly w/only 80K miles on it. Within 3
weeks of putting in that stuff, the engine was dead. I was told by the
mechanic that stuff like that breaks down the viscosity of the oil, not sure if
he's right or not but my car certainly had all sorts of bottom-end damage
due to poor lubrication. I shudder to think what stuff like this would do
to a high-performance engine like ours, especially the turbos.
E.RDZ
- -----Original Message-----
From: Tigran Varosyan
Sent: 10/29/2002
5:54 PM
Subject: Team3S: Do StopLeak products work?
I saw some StopLeak for engine oil and Tranny fluid at Schucks. Do those
work or is it all BS?
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:25:53 -0800
From: Andrew Woll <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Do StopLeak products work?
They work for very small leaks. I don't know what else they clog up and I
never use them.
Andy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Sent: Tuesday,
October 29, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Team3S: Do StopLeak products work?
| I saw some StopLeak for engine oil and Tranny fluid at Schucks. Do
|
those work or is it all BS?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:46:36 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Do
StopLeak products work?
Most of the oil stop leak products just have a chemical that softens the
rubber in the seals. I don't think it would work on a large leak. Radiator
stop leak is different, it has to fill a hole while you shouldn't have any
spare holes in your engine.
I've never used the oil stuff and would recommend against it unless it's
for a winter beater or something.
Jim Berry
================================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Rodriguez, Elpidio x35617d1" <
x35617@exmail.usma.army.mil>
Sent:
Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Do StopLeak products
work?
> The last and only time I used a StopLeak product was to try to "fix" a
> small oil leak in my '90 celica. Though it was dripping a few drops of
> oil, the engine was running perfectly w/only 80K miles on it. Within 3
> weeks of putting in that stuff, the engine was dead. I was told by the
> mechanic that stuff like that breaks down the viscosity of the oil,
> not sure if he's right or not but my car certainly had all sorts of
> bottom-end damage due to poor lubrication. I shudder to think what
> stuff like this would do to a high-performance engine like ours,
> especially the turbos.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:17:27 -0700
From: Desert Fox <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure? And recent woes with water pump
Same questions here. Additionally, how much of a role does viscosity play
in these pressures?
Just put the Amsoil Series 3000 5W30 Heavy Duty full synthetic in for a go
round as it is expected to drop below 0°F here tonight, snowed the last
two nights, and snowed lightly most of the day. Also threw the snow tires
at lunch today on a good 3 weeks ahead of last season. Off with the Kumhos
at and on with the Pirelli Snow Sports.
I had posted after my oil change on Sunday that I seemed to have started
getting some leaking from the water pump. I went to sleep praying for a
miracle. The next morning, it did not drip immediately but started to soon
thereafter. So, no miracle but I'm still a believer.;-)
Last night, a heater hose blew a 3" section in my 98 F150 4X4, dumping the
entire contents of the cooling system in the process. Engine check light
on, oil light on, high temp light on, but temp gauge still showed cool,
probably because it was only 20°F or so out and it went in to "Fail Safe
Mode" where the engine automatically shuts down every other cylinder to suck air
and help cool in the absence of proper fluids. Made my drip, drip, drip
from the VR-4 water pump look like an eyedropper next to Niagara Falls.
$20 worth of coolant and distilled water later (left in the Wal-Mart
parking lot) and cutting the busted section of hose off to reattach got me home.
In to the Ford dealership today: probably $240 for hose replacement, fuel
filter replacement, cooling system flush and fill. More salt in this open
wound please...
The only good (and bizarre) news is that after driving the VR-4 back to
work after lunch with the snow tires on it, I don't see any discernable
leaking at all! Maybe because it is 25°F outside, maybe because... Who the
Fridge knows... I'm just glad to be on the road again...
Oh, so that might postpone my 120K maintenance for 10K or so but the guy I
talked to today about was saying about $380 for labor on the water pump,
timing belt, fuel filter, idler pulleys, oil seals, AC belt. That sound
about right? He is saying 5.2 hours for the water pump, which also gets
him in to the timing belt. Another 1.3 hours for the fuel filter, which I
thought was on the firewall with access by removing battery, battery tray
and washer fluid bottle. He thinks the fuel filter is in the fuel tank. Am
I right or is he?
I'm guessing:
Fuel filter - $80
Timing belt - $100
Water pump - $120
Oil seals -
$40
AC belt - $40
Idler pulleys - $100
The Mitsu dealership in Billings said $850 for a 60K tune which I don't
think included a water pump. I already did my plugs, ignition wires just
this summer.
Erik - get any ticking with the Mobil 1 5W30?
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi
exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
> Anyone know for a VR-4? Or just for 4-stroke, internal
combustion,
> wet-sump, engines in general?
>
> In case
anyone is interested, here's what I see in my VR-4 with my
>
newly-installed real (as opposed to the stock POS) oil pressure gauge:
>
> Idle, Immediately after Startup: 55psi
>
3000RPM unloaded, Cold Engine: 140+psi (pegged)
>
2000-4000RPM loaded, Hot Engine: 55-85psi
> Idle,
Hot
Engine:
20-23psi (seems low)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:31:21 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure? And recent woes wit h water pump
> Oh, so that might postpone my 120K maintenance for 10K
> or so
but the guy I talked to today about was saying
> about $380 for labor on
the water pump,
> timing belt, fuel filter, idler pulleys, oil
seals,
> AC belt.
If your water pump is visibly leaking, don't postpone the 60k for any
length of time or you may end up regretting it. It's soaking your
belt with coolant most likely.
> That sound about right? He is saying 5.2 hours
> for the water
pump, which also gets him
> in to the timing belt.
Not terrible. ... if he does it right ;)
> Another 1.3 hours for the fuel filter, which I
> thought was on
the firewall with access by removing
> battery, battery tray and washer
fluid bottle.
> He thinks the fuel filter is in the fuel tank. Am
I
> right or is he?
> I'm guessing:
> Fuel filter - $80
$20
> Erik - get any ticking with the Mobil 1 5W30?
A little on startup every once in a while, but none, ever when it's
warm.
- --Erik
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:37:51 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: What's "normal" for oil pressure? And recent woes with water pump
Paul - Fuel filter is on the firewall. Mine was replaced at the 90k
tune-up (which I had performed at 98k) and they showed me the old one but
I did not know what to look for - they said you can usually see through it
(like from one end to the other) but as it clogs up with things you can
not do that - then I knew what they meant. There might be one in the fuel
pump area but I think the main one to replace is on the firewall and yes,
remove the battery, tray, maybe wash bottle, etc. to gain access.
$850 sounds high even for a dealer's price on the 60k. I think they
are more around $500-$600 when they buy all the parts (like the $15 spark
plugs instead of the same ones cheaper that you can buy yourself).
The Mitsu dealer I went to was around $550 for the 60k I believe and they
inflate their prices the normal percentage even.
I'm off to watch my driving instructor at the last event of the NASA East
Coast Honda Challenge (ECHC) this weekend at Summit Point, WV and on the
way back I am picking up my track wheels from my friend who borrowed them
so I can mount the winter tires on. First dusting of snow being
called for this week/weekend (in the higher areas of southern PA) so it is
perfect timing. Slap on the Bridgestone Blizzak MZ-01 tires and I'll
be snowplowing in style.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Desert Fox
Sent: Tuesday, October
29, 2002 19:17
Oh, so that might postpone my 120K maintenance for 10K or so but the guy I
talked to today about was saying about $380 for labor on the water pump,
timing belt, fuel filter, idler pulleys, oil seals, AC belt. That sound
about right? He is saying 5.2 hours for the water pump, which also gets
him in to the timing belt. Another 1.3 hours for the fuel filter, which I
thought was on the firewall with access by removing battery, battery tray
and washer fluid bottle. He thinks the fuel filter is in the fuel tank. Am
I right or is he?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:59:17 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S: How
to get the timing belt on right??
As you guys know, I'm doing my 60k now and I'm having hell with the timing
belt. I had mentioned in a previous post that turning the engine backwards
seems to mess up the auto tensioner's protrusion and throw it out of spec.
But I've noticed that even if I turn the engine clockwise all the time
(which is a royal pain, but can be done) then it still goes out of spec! I
religiously torque the center tensioner pulley bolt to 42ft lbs every
single time while I am holding the belt at 7.2ft lbs using the over-priced
mitsu magic tool. The pin then comes out easily, and goes back in easily
too. But as soon as the engine starts turning, things get messed up. The
protrusion compresses (goes in too far). It has never gone out of spec by
coming out too far. I've adjusted and re-adjusted the belt at least 4 or 5
times (i think more) and this happens every single time. Has anyone had
this same experience? Can I trust the auto tensioner to just do its job here
even if that protrusion isn't within spec? I'd rather not drive this thing
unless someone else had the same experience, and everything is okay for
them.
One more thing...
I have tried torquing the center bolt more. I torqued it to 55 ft lbs, and
the rod still moves! Should I try going higher? I'd rather not. That's
another thing that I'm shaky about. If the shop manual says 42 ft lbs, I'd
expect the thing to work at that torque.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:05:11 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S: high
compression. bad gauge?
While I'm doing my 60k, I figured why not check how my baby's internals
are. My compression numbers came out between 150psi and 165psi for each
cylinder. The shop manual spec is 156 psi (turbo) with a lower limit of
115 psi. With 188,000 miles on the engine, I'm very surprised that it has
this much compression left. Also, my engine was cold when I did the test. I'm
pretty sure the 156 psi spec is for a warm engine. Plenum and all spark
plugs were removed. When I shot oil in the socket, I got between 160 and
180 psi per cylinder. Does this sound like a bad gauge? I called the parts
shop that sold it to me and they said their gauges are "pretty accurate"... for
what that's worth. It's an EQUUS 6-piece tester.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:19:25 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: high compression. bad gauge?
I have bought and tested 4 pressure gauges from 2 different manufacturers
including SNAP-ON which is like the best tool maker... Anyway, they are
all wrong. What you are looking for is consistency. Make sure all
cylinders are within 5-7psi and you are ok.
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From: Riyan Mynuddin
Sent: Tuesday,
October 29, 2002 5:05 PM
Subject: Team3S: high compression. bad gauge?
While I'm doing my 60k, I figured why not check how my baby's internals
are. My compression numbers came out between 150psi and 165psi for each
cylinder. The shop manual spec is 156 psi (turbo) with a lower limit of
115 psi. With 188,000 miles on the engine, I'm very surprised that it has
this much compression left. Also, my engine was cold when I did the test. I'm
pretty sure the 156 psi spec is for a warm engine. Plenum and all spark
plugs were removed. When I shot oil in the socket, I got between 160 and
180 psi per cylinder. Does this sound like a bad gauge? I called the parts
shop that sold it to me and they said their gauges are "pretty accurate"... for
what that's worth. It's an EQUUS 6-piece tester.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:19:29 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
high compression. bad gauge?
carbon buildup in the cylinder can cause increased compression numbers.
There was a thread in the last day or so talking about this topic.
Jim Berry
================================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Sent: Tuesday,
October 29, 2002 5:05 PM
Subject: Team3S: high compression. bad gauge?
> While I'm doing my 60k, I figured why not check how my baby's
>
internals are. My compression numbers came out between 150psi and
>
165psi for each cylinder. The shop manual spec is 156 psi (turbo) with
>
a lower limit of 115 psi. With 188,000 miles on the engine, I'm very
>
surprised that it has this much compression left. Also, my engine was
>
cold when I did the test. I'm pretty sure the 156 psi spec is for a
>
warm engine. Plenum and all spark plugs were removed. When I shot oil
>
in the socket, I got between 160 and 180 psi per cylinder. Does this
>
sound like a bad gauge? I called the parts shop that sold it to me and
>
they said their gauges are "pretty accurate"... for what that's worth.
>
It's an EQUUS 6-piece tester.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:09:53 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
3S-Racers: Need to get my bearings
It's really pretty basic, you're buddies at Denny's [ the muffler shop, not
the restaurant ] could easily do it. There are a four small bolts for the
half shaft and then a large nut holding the axel stub in the bearing
housing. 35mm or so --- I'm guessing until I look at the one I bought to
remove the rears. You shouldn't even need to remove the ebrake backing plate ---
just the rotors and calipers. You probably need to have the bearings
pressed off of the axel.
Jim Berry
=========================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Sent:
Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:19 PM
Subject: 3S-Racers: Need to get my
bearings
> Are there instructions on anyone's site for replacing rear wheel
> bearings?
>
> I tried 3Si.org, John's Repair shop, and web
sites for Hans Ertl and
> Dave Black. I'd search our archives if I knew
how, because I
> recall such a discussion around here recently.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:51:30 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
How to get the timing belt on right??
What type of torque wrench are you using? If it's one of those clicker
types, it could be miscalibrated. Hell, even the beam type could be off
(temp changes and the like)
This may sound absurd (and may very well be absurd) but you may be
over-torqueing the center bolt. Try going just a tad under. I know when I
did mine, it took for friggin' ever. I had to redo the tensioner a good 4
or 5 times, but when all was said and done, you could turn the engine
every-which-way without any problems. I don't see how the direction of travel of
the tbelt would have any impact on the tensioner protrusion.
Alex.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Riyan Mynuddin
Sent: Tuesday,
October 29, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: Team3S: How to get the timing belt on
right??
As you guys know, I'm doing my 60k now and I'm having hell with the timing
belt. I had mentioned in a previous post that turning the engine backwards
seems to mess up the auto tensioner's protrusion and throw it out of spec.
But I've noticed that even if I turn the engine clockwise all the time
(which is a royal pain, but can be done) then it still goes out of spec! I
religiously torque the center tensioner pulley bolt to 42ft lbs every
single time while I am holding the belt at 7.2ft lbs using the over-priced
mitsu magic tool. The pin then comes out easily, and goes back in easily
too. But as soon as the engine starts turning, things get messed up. The
protrusion compresses (goes in too far). It has never gone out of spec by
coming out too far. I've adjusted and re-adjusted the belt at least 4 or 5
times (i think more) and this happens every single time. Has anyone had
this same experience? Can I trust the auto tensioner to just do its job here
even if that protrusion isn't within spec? I'd rather not drive this thing
unless someone else had the same experience, and everything is okay for
them.
One more thing...
I have tried torquing the center bolt more. I torqued it to 55 ft lbs, and
the rod still moves! Should I try going higher? I'd rather not. That's
another thing that I'm shaky about. If the shop manual says 42 ft lbs, I'd
expect the thing to work at that torque.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:33:02 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
How to get the timing belt on right??
I have used both types. The beam type is what I prefer. The clicker type
was doing some strange things. Even when the center bolt reached the right
torque, it would keep turning. It's a Craftsman tool too. So much for
their big reputation. Maybe I just got a bad one. Tomorrow I'll try going
a tad under and a tad over, then 10 lbs under and 10 lbs over. After that, maybe
I'll start complaining again.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1
#985
***************************************