Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, October 28
2002 Volume 01 : Number 984
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:15:30 -0700
From: Desert Fox <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 106,295 oil change = expensive
I just did the most expensive oil change I have ever done today and it got
much more expensive when I finished. 5 quarts at $8.50/ea and $10 for the
K&N oil filter. Yeeee haw!!!!!!!!
I was switching from Amsoil 10W30 to Amsoil Series 3000 Heavy Duty 5W30
synthetic oil. I had just about decided to leave the old K&N oil
filter on there for another go round but decided to ride the bike in to
town and get a new one since I was changing viscosities and the 10W30 had
5,000 miles on it. A sample is on the way to get analyzed tomorrow.
Drained old oil before leaving, removed oil filter. Got back, filled new
filter with oil, installed and filled with a little less than 4
quarts.
When I fired it up to check for oil leaks, all looked well as there were
none. However, as I lie there under the car taking pride in my good work,
a telltale drip, drip, drip... But wait, it is more green than oily
looking. Oh crap, there is fluid coming out of the pulley / belt area of
the driver's side. Obviously water pump bit the dust. Coincidence?
So, I'll spare everyone (but Flash) the full-on details and just ask for
advice. If that water pump was going to go, I suppose it couldn't have
happened in a better place as I have had them fail in other vehicles while
on the road in the winter. Not fun stopping every several miles to refill
the radiator.
Do I have it flatbed transported to the shop now? I hate to drive it at all
knowing that it is spewing the way that it is.
Please also tell me that there is no possible way that I could have caused
a premature water pump failure by doing an oil change. If so, what could I
have possibly done wrong? Superstition runs deep in my overactive
imagination...
Looks like a 15K mile early 120K maintenance. So, "Survey [archives]
says!":
Timing belt
Water pump
Oil seal(s)
A/C belt
Is the new oil I put in this morning going to be OK? Should I drain it to
put in after my wallet cries "Uncle!" from the shop bill?
I bought the car with 76K on it so although I have some of the car's
history, I do not know for absolute certainty that the 60K was done or if
it was done "thoroughly" i.e. Water pump and all... Better off skeptical
than stranded. Here goes another, what, $800 or so? Which I'd love to
tackle but would rather have someone else do so that it doesn't take me
all weekend.
And I was going to turn rotors and put new pads on, to salt the wound. Who
has the killer street pads for sale - Geoff? I'm looking! Rotors turned
and new pads, I'm guessing $200? Which I can handle the labor on
myself.
I had scheduled an all wheel alignment for next Tuesday but I will have to
cancel that for now. Another $60... Which I can't handle.
If I go out and fire up the car tomorrow and it doesn't leak, I'll have
experienced a miracle that I'll report to the list. I'm not holding my
breath. Which I can handle.
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi
exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
------------------------------
Hi guys-
i have a recurring problem that wont go away.
When i first got my N/A, the coolant light was on. Satan pressure checked
the
system, topped off the coolant, and everything was fine. They
forgot to
check the cap, which was of course the real problem, as it
couldn't hold a
breath, let alone the needed pressure.
Everything has since been fine until tonite when that wonderful light came
on
again. i just checked everything today it seems fine, no leakage, but the
coolant level was a little low. It only comes on in hard acceleration or
steep declines. What the hell can it be?
- -mike
97 SL
------------------------------
You sure it's the coolant?
The windshield washer low fluid light looks
just like a little radiator.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
>telltale drip, drip, drip... But wait, it is more green than oily
>looking. Oh crap, there is fluid coming out of the pulley / belt area
>of the driver's side. Obviously water pump bit the dust.
Yep, that's probably the water pump. Been there, done that.
>Do I have it flatbed transported to the shop now? I hate to drive it at
>all knowing that it is spewing the way that it is.
Nah. It'll go a long ways. It's probably been dripping like that for
months. Top it off and drive it down. If it's spewing, that's
different.
>I bought the car with 76K on it so although I have some of the car's
>history, I do not know for absolute certainty that the 60K was done or
>if it was done "thoroughly" i.e. Water pump and all...
Just a guess, but I suspect that the dealer didn't change the water pump
when they did the timing belt. Let this be a lesson to all the 60/120K
belt changers: always do the pump, too. It's only an extra $100 for parts,
and zip for labor.
>Here goes another, what, $800 or so?
Yep. Here in Cedar Rapids, anyway. Look at it this way: In another 12,000
miles -- when you hit 120,000 miles -- you would have had to change the
belts again anyway.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:24:25 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <
alex@kolosy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
106,295 oil change = expensive
One other consideration...
Coolant wreaks havoc on the timing belt. If it really has been leaking for
months, I'd be more worried about the timing belt slipping/breaking than
anything else, especially since it's coming up on that 120 mark...
Alex.
BTW, there are people on 3si that managed to get their 60/120k done for
them for $5-600 all parts included, but chances are if you take it to a
dealership, they'll charge you for a new plasma conduit as well ;)
...
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:27:44 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
106,295 oil change = expensive
My car has been leaking from the water pump for tens of thousands of miles.
I got it like this from the original owner, who warned me of it. I'm
definitely not saying that you should do this, but if you keep the rpm's
low (shift at 2500 to 2750), I bet you'll be just fine. Just don't
procrastinate it. I did, and I almost regretted it.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:33:07 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Coolant problem
You know what's weird is that my water pump would only leak after the car
was stopped. If you do find that the light isn't windshield washer fluid,
put some cardboard under your car at night after a drive and check in the
morning for discoloration on it. That's what happened to me. Eventually
the leak got worse though, but that is how it started.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:39:19 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
106,295 oil change = expensive
And to complement Alex's comment, the dealer may not do it right either.
The biggest deal is the correct installation of the timing auto-tensioner.
A good deal of the 60k service is just busy work (as long as you're at
least a little mechanically inclined)... but the auto tensioner actually
takes some coordination and thought, which is a little bit much for the hourly
auto tech. I hate to generalize, and hope I didn't offend anyone by saying
that. But I'm just speaking from experience. Also, you make consider
checking the accessory idler and tensioner pulleys. Mine were fried.
Riyan
93 stealth rt tt
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:48:27 -0700
From: Desert Fox <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 106,295 oil change = expensive
I'm really anal about looking under my car and/or noticing any and all
fluid loss. I had zero until this afternoon and I'd estimate that a little
under an pint came out while I was examining post change. I removed the
radiator cap though and it didn't appear to be low yet.
I don't have a Mitsu dealership within 140 miles so I'm safe.;-)
Yep, my bet is that the water pump that has catastrophically failed is the
original one. 106,295 miles - not too bad!
Alex - I think my plasma conduit is still in fine working order.;-0
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi
exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
>> telltale drip, drip, drip... But wait, it is more green than oily
>> looking. Oh crap, there is fluid coming out of the pulley / belt
area
>> of the driver's side. Obviously water pump bit the
dust.
>>
> Yep, that's probably the water pump. Been there, done
that.
>
>> Do I have it flatbed transported to the shop now? I
hate to drive it
>> at all knowing that it is spewing the way that it
is.
>
> Nah. It'll go a long ways. It's probably been dripping like
that for
> months. Top it off and drive it down. If it's spewing, that's
> different.
>
>> I bought the car with 76K on it so
although I have some of the car's
>> history, I do not know for
absolute certainty that the 60K was done
>> or if it was done
"thoroughly" i.e. Water pump and all...
>
> Just a guess, but I
suspect that the dealer didn't change the water
> pump when they did the
timing belt. Let this be a lesson to all the
> 60/120K belt
>
changers: always do the pump, too. It's only an extra $100 for parts, and
zip
> for labor.
>
>> Here goes another, what, $800 or
so?
>
> Yep. Here in Cedar Rapids, anyway. Look at it this way: In
another
> 12,000 miles -- when you hit 120,000 miles -- you would have
had to
> change the belts again anyway.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:51:53 -0700
From: "Erik Petterson" <
erik@microworks.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question about replacing the dash defrost vents. "Please
Help".
Maybe I am imagining things, but I remember seeing a detailed instruction
sheet telling exactly how to pry them out and put in the new ones with
pictures too??? Couldn't find it though. Anyone know what site
that is?
Searching the Team 3S archives for "Dash Vent Replacement" I found
this:
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:22:19 -0600
From:
kalla@tripoint.orgSubject: Re: Team3S:
Defroster vents
> place? Can they be replaced from the top or are they held down by
> screws from the bottom? I have tried to look under my dash and can't
> see any way to get to them.
You can replace them from the top if you don't mind breaking the plastic in
the dash where the vents screw in. I didn't want to go through the
headache of removing the entire dash, so I used a flathead screwdriver and
a pair of pliers and very carefully snapped the vents out where they
screwed in. I needed pliers to break the screws out in a couple of places.
I applied silicone sealant generously to the replacement vents at the three
screw-points and sat them into the holes. I used a folded- up towel to
hold the new vents snugly in the holes while the silicone adhesive set
(about a day or so).
I realize that this requires breaking a few screwholes in your dash, but it
didn't bother me since I'll probably never take out my dash, and no one
will ever know the difference.
> The silicone
> gives it flexibility during the summer and winter
so they should never
> break again.
> > I have been told by some that I have to totally take out the
> > steering wheel assembly and Dash to accomplish this little task. I
> > thought it would be a simple 5 to 10 minute job but now it's
> > starting to sound like its going to take all weekend.
>
>
> > Please tell me that there is an easier way.
>
>
> > Thank you for your time.
> >
> >
David.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:30:40 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: Team3S:
polished radiator brackets??
I remember hearing someone talk about these before. I have tried searched
the archives here, 3si, and even the web. My brackets are rusty and ugly.
Anyone remember where I can get myself some of these?
Thanks,
Riyan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:11:08 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
polished radiator brackets??
Dave Best [ 3SI.org ] does them but recommends against it ---- they're
steel and rust again and are impossible to keep polished. Paint em, chrome
em or powder coat em.
Jim berry
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Sent: Monday, October
28, 2002 1:30 AM
Subject: Team3S: polished radiator brackets??
> I remember hearing someone talk about these before. I have tried
> searched the archives here, 3si, and even the web. My brackets are
> rusty and ugly. Anyone remember where I can get myself some of
these?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:17:48 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: 4 Questions on Issues, Intake, Exhaust and Fluid questions
1) Do you believe the 30K mileage? Have you run the VIN to see if
maybe the speedo has been replaced? If it's really 30K miles, then
you are looking at things that age over years instead of with engine
hours, especially if the car has been located in a big city with fairly polluted
air. That would be vacuum hoses and belts. Tires can also age
badly. Changing all the fluids is a good idea. Has the car been on
the coast or in a snow-prone area where they use salt on the roads?
If so you are looking at some corrosion, you will enjoy removing the brake
rotors the first time! Before you put stuff back together, you can clean
the corrosion and coat the surfaces with antiseize compound.
2) Yes, the K&N gets engine bay air, but it goes through a Mass Air
Flow Sensor, so the temperature/density of the intake air shouldn't be
such a concern. The purpose is that it is less restrictive than the
stock air box.
3) I don't think anyone has shown any real big hp gains from aftermarket
exhausts, unless you actually eliminate the two precats, then the car may
not be street legal, clean air-wise. If you are just going for
sound, I'm not sure that either the Borla exhaust or the Super Drager is
much more impressive than the stock exhaust in Sport mode.
4) The most noticeable effect of the Redline gear oil in the tranny and
transfer case is the elimination of hard shifting, especially into
reverse, in cold weather. We've used MT90 for both tranny and
transaxle for 5 years in four VR4's in hot and cold climates on the street and
track with good results. Some others favor mixtures, which is just
fine. We use Mobil1 10W30 weight oil, but there are a lot of others
who favor Amsoil and other stuff. Don't forget the rear differential - we
use Red Line 75W90 for limited slip differentials, but other GL5 gear oils
should be fine.
Don't forget to buy all the little metal seals (6) for the transaxle,
transfer case, and rear diff drain and fill plugs.
Chuck Willis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:53:41 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Fuel Cut
Ok, so perhaps our definitions of worthless are not the same... IMHO, a
gauge that is labeled "turbo symbol", yet reads A/N; has units of "psi",
but measures airflow; has numerical labels and tick marks that correspond
to absolutely nothing; and regularly pegs the needle at the upper end of
the gauge under normal driving... is worthless. But that's just my take
:-)
- --Erik
Gross, Erik wrote:
> "The stock boost gauge is worthless
except
> to tell you if you're in vacuum or boost."
Jeff Lucius wrote:
> The "boost meter" is not totally inaccurate. Nor
is it
> worthless.
>
> It is **mislabeled**. It meters
neither boost nor vacuum,
> for these values are not measured or
calculated by the ECM.
>
> The so-called "boost meter" accurately
(to the best of my
> knowledge) reports an important value calculated by
the
> ECM that Mitsu calls "A/N". More details
> on my web page
noted above and in the "DSM" Technical
> Information Manual.
------------------------------
I saw a neat pair of KYB adjustable gas performance shocks today, destined
for the rear of a 3000GT. They had a dial adjustment from 1-10.
SHOCKS, GAS SPECIALTY/PERFORMANCE, FRONT
KYB 335013 [FRONT STRUT
ASSEMBLY] GR2; EXC.ADJ.SUSP. *
SHOCKS, GAS
SPECIALTY/PERFORMANCE, REAR
KYB 341183 [REAR SHOCK ABSORBER] GR2;
EXC.ADJ.SUSP.
Prices not available.
So what's all this then?
How much are they?
How long have they been
available?
Anybody using them for racing or open track events?
Who sells
them?
If this is something new, how about a group buy?
I see that 3S-X Performance still lists only the stock replacement KYB
struts ($359 for four).
Man, I need a set of performance shocks, and haven't been able to find
nuttin. Until now.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:01:30 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Shocking questions
They used to be available from Alamo Motorsports.com not sure if they
still
are and they are about 250 per corner IIRC.
Them with along with a set of GC's you are with in 100 buck of HA's and
250
of JIC's
- -----Original Message-----
From:
merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent:
Monday, October 28, 2002 4:57 PM
Subject: Team3S: Shocking questions
Prices not available.
So what's all this then?
How much are they?
How long have they been
available?
Anybody using them for racing or open track events?
Who sells
them?
If this is something new, how about a group buy?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:01:17 -0500
From: Vinny <
vinman3@comcast.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 4 Questions on Issues, Intake, Exhaust and Fluid questions
Hey Marc,
Thanks for the info. I am paying 8K
for the car. I think thats it's a
great price considering that it looks
brand new. It was garaged kept with
his Ferrari Dino in a heated/cooled
environment. The guy is on dialysis
(sp?) and can't really enjoy it
anymore, he wont give it to his son because
he gave him a Mitsu Starion a few
years back in mint condition and he just
trashed it, plus the son will get
the Dino when he can't drive it anymore.
Is the Borla too
loud? Does it reverberate/drone in the cabin too much?
Thanks for the
info on the intake too!
Take care
Vinny
------------------------------
Alamo only carries GAB shocks which, as I understand it, are no longer
available anyway.
What's a "HA" and a "JIC"?? I already have a GC setup. I just need shocks.
Rich
At 05:01 PM 10/28/02 -0500, Furman, Russell wrote:
>They used to be
available from Alamo Motorsports.com not sure if they still
>are and they
are about 250 per corner IIRC.
>
>Them with along with a set of GC's
you are with in 100 buck of HA's and 250
>of JIC's
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:20:13 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Shocking questions
HA's are the TEIN coil over set up, the JIC's are the new from Japan
setup
that I haven't heard a whole lot about yet.
Well except from GT Pro who claim they are the greatest thing since
sliced
bread but I take allot of info from them with a grain of salt
Russ F
CT
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:43:25 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Fuel Cut
>> ... is worthless. But that's just my take :-)
Erik, using your line or reasoning, the engine coolant temp meter is also
worthless because it displays no numeric information whatsoever - it has
"tick
marks that correspond to absolutely nothing". :)
To be correct, the meter does not "measure airflow" as you state. The MAS
does
that. The "turbo meter" measures nothing, but does display basically
the
engine load, or the calculated air volume per cylinder per engine
revolution -
called "A/N".
The A/N value that the "boost meter" displays is the very basis for the
calculation of the fuel injector activation time and the stock boost control
solenoid duty cycle. There is no other engine operating value/condition that
is more important in determining these two duty cycles.
I agree that the value displayed by the boost meter does not necessarily or
accurately represent the relative intake manifold pressure (vacuum or boost)
-
and in that sense it has little value as a boost meter.
But the information displayed reveals the very basis for the most essential
of
engine operations - that of mixing fuel and air in the correct
proportions for
the desired goal (economy or power, as examples). Hardly
worthless information
by any reasonable standard. But also, hardly
information that might be
valuable or useful to us as tuners. The "boost
meter" is mostly just a
curiosity unless we can quantify its display somehow
(maybe some ingenious
member can use the datalogger info to do this?).
It is too bad, though, that the display range does not cover the full range
of
A/N values and is not marked in units that are relevant to engine load
(I'm
not sure what those would be exactly).
However, a pegged meter does suggest that the "overboost-protection"
fuel-
cut "feature" could be initiated soon by the ECM. So maybe it is partly
valuable as a "warning" device (warning the driver that the ECM may shortly
try to slam his face into the steering wheel by cutting power to the fuel
injectors). :)
Mitsu should have supplied a real boost gauge (a super-easy task as any of
us
know that have installed vacuum-boost gauges). Mitsu even installed a MAP
sensor (manifold absolute pressure) in 1996 and newer models. Sadly, the
measurements are only used for testing and regulating the EGR valve.
Page 14-56 of the 1990 Laser Technical Information Manual and page 14-57 of
the Talon TIM (see Manual on CD) document how the "boost meter" works. Page
14-
2 of the 1991 Stealth TIM states that the electronic control of the 3S
fuel
injection system is basically the same as that used in the
Laser/Talon.
------------------------------
KYB responded quickly to my query:
>These KYB parts are GR2 replacement parts. They are approx 10% firmer
than
stock and cannot be considered "race or rally" caliber. They are
considered
a Factory upgrade replacement.
*sigh*
That shock looks absolutely perfect, too.
Feel free to discuss this with the product manager:
I told him
there are hundreds of us --AWD and non-AWD cars alike -- who want performance
shocks -- not just factory replacements. Maybe if some of you sent him an
encouraging message, KYB might listen and bring in AGXes for our cars.
They make them for AWD Talons, so we aren't that far away. (Anybody know
if we can modify a Talon shock or strut to fit?)
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4
92 Talon TSi AWD
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:00:35 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Official KYB answer
I'll add my two cents in verifying that "10% firmer than stock"
number. I got
these KYBs and they are barely firmer than MY stock
struts (on an NT!). They
are nowhere near enough of a damping rate to
use for even rough roads, let
alone racing. You turbo guys should
scratch them off your list. I can't wait
to get rid of mine, and I've
only had them on for ~500 miles. You get what
you pay for.
- --Forrest
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1
#984
***************************************