Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, September 12 2002 Volume 01 : Number
950
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:36:45 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: accident reconstruction
First, let me apologize for the long
post. If this should be moved to
another forum, please let me
know!
Second, my tone wasn't meant to convey anything, I was simply
trying to
be informative, not confrontational, and am just speaking from what
my
experience has been trying many auto cases to juries, many of
which
involved the testimony of accident reconstructionists, and many of
which
involved fatalities. Accepting the proposition that the
software
program you describe uses the same data and makes the same
calculations
as a black box, the difference is that the in-the-vehicle
"Black Box"
receives it's information automatically through vehicle sensors
and
computers. There's no chance for "human" garbage in-"human"
garbage
out. In legal jargon, it's the "best evidence" of what was
going on at
the time of impact, immediately prior to impact, and
immediately
following impact. The only thing you can attack there
is the
technology itself. Once you stray away from the "Black Box," you
stray
away from computer automation and enter the realm of
human
interpretation and assumption. Some of the data entered into
the
software program you describe is premised upon human interpretation
and
assumption, and therefore is subject to attack. For example, a
"black
box" will tell you exactly how long a wheel remained locked up
or the
length an ABS system remained activated based upon values
received by
the vehicle speed sensor or a wheel speed sensor. It will
tell you the
exact speed a car was going at the time of impact based
upon values
received from the vehicle speed sensor. When you leave the
black box,
that same information is obtained only by interpreting
external factors
and making certain assumptions, such as length of skid marks
and signs
of impact. The length of a skid mark, while loosely
associated with
vehicle speed, depends on a variety of external factors,
namely
friction. Many things can affect friction--the condition
of the road,
grease, time period from the last significant rainfall,
etc. So the
length of a skid mark on dry asphalt where there hasn't
been a
significant rainfall for 45 days, of a car going 45, will be
different
than the length of a skid mark on dry concrete after a
significant
rainfall of a car traveling at the same speed.
The difference in the impact of the testimony is probably
best
understood by examining how the testimony would come in before a
jury
where the issue is vehicle speed at the time of impact:
Q:
Mr A, did you have an opportunity to examine the vehicle's black box?
A: Yes
I did. (after describing what the device is and what it does)
Q: Does the
black box indicate how fast Mr. X's vehicle was
traveling at the time of
impact?
A: Yes it does.
Q: How so?
A: The black box constantly monitors
and records the vehicle's speed by
. . .
Q: What was the value retrieved
from the unit, Mr. A?
A: 75 miles per hour.
Q: How accurate is that
number, Mr. A?
A: Terribly accurate. It is a snapshot of the vehicle's
activity
at the time of impact. It's as if someone took a picture of
Mr. X's
speedometer at the exact time he hit Ms. Y's car. And we all
know a
picture is worth 1000 words.
An accident
reconstructionist for the plaintiff would testify like this:
Q: Mr. B,
based upon your knowledge, training and experience, did
you have an OPINION
to a reasonable degree of certainty as to how fast
Mr. X's vehicle was
traveling at the time of impact?
A: Yes I do.
Q: And what is that
OPINION?
A: Mr. X's vehicle was traveling 75 miles per hour.
Q: And how
did you reach that opinion, Mr. B?
A: Well, I first examined the
skidmarks. Based upon Officer's Z's
estimation, the skid marks from Mr.
X's car were approximately 30 feet
long. I then considered the
coefficient of friction, as well as the
weight and displacement of Mr.
A's vehicle, performed some mathematical
calculations, .... I then
plugged these numbers into a computer
program. . .
An accident
reconstructionist for the defendant would testify like this:
Q: Now, Mr.
C, did you have an opportunity to hear the testimony of Mr.
B?
A:
Yes.
Q: In fact, Mr. C, you were in the courtroom during the entirety
of
Mr. B's testimony, correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you agree with Mr. B's
testimony that Mr. X was traveling 75
miles per hour at the time of the
accident?
A: No I do not.
Q: Why not?
A: Well, Mr. B failed to take
into consideration factors x, y and z.
Q: Did you, Mr. C, perform you
own analysis?
A: Yes I did.
Q: And did you take into consideration the
factors Mr. B failed to
consider?
A: Yes I did.
Q: And what did you
come up with?
A: Mr. X's car was traveling 60 miles per hour at the time
of
impact, which is 5 miles per hour below the posted speed limit.
Q: Am I
correct, Mr. C, that you reached that conclusion using the
same computer
program that Mr. B used?
A: That is correct. The same
program.
That over-simplifies it, but I think you get my point.
Unlike the
reconstructionists' opinions, there are no subjective factors in
the
black box.
Joe
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Furman, Russell [mailto:RFurman2@MassMutual.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September
11, 2002 9:27 AM
To: Starkey, Jr., Joseph;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
And Joe what I am telling you the
same data/calculations USED IN THOSE
BLACK BOXES, are the same thing I was
playing with only difference is it
is not vehicle specific. So those
BB's have the same possibility for
error "human garbage in human garbage
out"
An based on your tone/text you haven't dealt with someone who's
actually
understands what they are doing, not just doing it as "part of
their
job"
The old timer has been doing it for 4 years now and his
friend/partner
on the fatalities was one the first trained by the state my
father was
3rd
Russ F
CT
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Starkey, Jr., Joseph
[SMTP:starkeyje@bipc.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:19
AM
> To: Furman, Russell;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
>
> Yeah, I understand
physics, etc. I've been practicing law now for
> several years, and
I'll tell you, all that stuff is voodoo science to
a
> jury. Give
me an accident reconstructionist, physics major, etc., his
> opinions
and calculations, and I'll cross examine him and make him
look
> like a
fool. I agree that the calculations can be verified, and of
>
course the software program will spit out a conclusion, but
the
validity
> of the ultimate opinion or conclusion all depends on
what goes into
the
> formula or software program--garbage in, garbage
out--and one can
ALWAYS
> find garbage in a human opinion or software
conclusion by attacking
its
> basis. Therefore, it becomes just
another opinion. "Black box"
> evidence--that's another
question. Juries love that stuff. It's the
> DNA of an auto
accident! And it's FACT, not opinion, so it's easy for
> juries
to believe. :-)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:34:08
-0400
From:
focus13@vif.comSubject:
Team3S: Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless entry
system
1. I need a new ABS hydraulic unit for my 95 Dodge Stealth twin
turbo
AWD,
I assume all twin turbos are AWD. Where can I get one new/used
for under
300$? It doesn't have to be OEM, I just need that ABS light to
turn off
and
my vehicle to be safe.
2. Is the keyless entry system
a standard feature on my car or an
option?
3. Okay, I have several
questions. This is the last one. What model,
year
Stealth/3000GT have
compatible ABS units and is an adapter needed for
installation between
years/ models?
-Natalie
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:53:23
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless
entry system
I believe you'll have to try a local junk yard for that one,
Natalie.
Aftermarket ABS Hydraulic units (new or reman) run in the
$1200-$1700
range. (see CarParts.com) :-(,
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
focus13@vif.com
[mailto:focus13@vif.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:34 AM
To:
TEAM3S@Stealth-3000GT.stSubject:
Team3S: Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless entry
system
1. I need a new ABS hydraulic unit for my 95 Dodge Stealth twin
turbo
AWD,
I assume all twin turbos are AWD. Where can I get one new/used
for under
300$? It doesn't have to be OEM, I just need that ABS light to
turn off
and
my vehicle to be safe.
2. Is the keyless entry system
a standard feature on my car or an
option?
3. Okay, I have several
questions. This is the last one. What model,
year
Stealth/3000GT have
compatible ABS units and is an adapter needed for
installation between
years/ models?
- -Natalie
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:57:55
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
taken privately, as to not bother the
list. BTW folks, if Joe is local
to you use him. He knows his
stuff
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starkey, Jr., Joseph
[SMTP:starkeyje@bipc.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:37
AM
> To: Furman, Russell;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
>
> First, let me
apologize for the long post. If this should be moved to
>
another forum, please let me know!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:11:44
-0700
From: Jim Elferdink <
macintosh@sunra.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless
entry system
Try M&S Recycling:
http://www.msrecycling.comAlso
check the used parts links on Jeff Lucius' site:
http://www.stealth316.comKeyless
entry is standard on your car.
-
-------------------------------------------
Jim Elferdink
95
VR4
> From:
focus13@vif.com> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002
10:34:08 -0400
> To:
TEAM3S@Stealth-3000GT.st>
Subject: Team3S: Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless
entry
> system
>
> 1. I need a new ABS hydraulic unit for
my 95 Dodge Stealth twin turbo
> AWD, I assume all twin turbos are AWD.
Where can I get one new/used
> for under 300$? It doesn't have to be OEM,
I just need that ABS light
> to turn off and my vehicle to be
safe.
>
> 2. Is the keyless entry system a standard feature on my
car or an
> option?
>
> 3. Okay, I have several questions.
This is the last one. What model,
> year Stealth/3000GT have compatible
ABS units and is an adapter needed
> for installation between years/
models?
>
> -Natalie
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:12:50
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Need new turbos !!!!!
>> I want to put bigger turbos in
my '94 TT. What options
>> do I have and where can I get the best
deal.
Some information is on my web pages below.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htmhttp://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htmAlso
look through the Team3S archives, messages on the 3SI.com, and talk
to
the speed shops that specialize in our cars (for contact info see
the
Garage
and Links Pages at my web site).
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/ -
----- Original Message -----
From: <
GoblinyTwin@aol.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:55 PM
Subject: Team3S: Need new turbos
!!!!!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:10:21
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Lawyers and stuff
At 10:57 AM 9/11/02 -0400, Furman, Russell
wrote:
>taken privately, as to not bother the list. BTW folks, if
Joe is local
>to you use him. He knows his stuff
>
So,
Joe, where are you?
Can you help us beat speeding tickets,
etc.?
Rich/slow old poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:07:59
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless
entry system
You can try the Great ABS Circuit Breaker Trick.
Just unbolt the
circuit breaker for the ABS (it's in the lower left
corner of the fuse box,
and is held in by two bolts).
Take it out and put it back
in.
Fixed my system. I had a problem with the ABS pump running
continuously,
and the ABS light stayed on. Other folks on the list report
similar
miracles.
Maybe the circuit breaker is broke. If so, it's only
$4.95 at the
dealer.
Rich/slow old poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:21:55
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Newbie question RE: ABS hydraulic unit, keyless
entry system
A guy
had a used one on the 3SI.org site a few days
ago.
Jim Berry
=================================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: <
focus13@vif.com>
To: <
TEAM3S@Stealth-3000GT.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:34 AM
Subject: Team3S: Newbie question RE:
ABS hydraulic unit, keyless entry
system
> 1. I need a new ABS
hydraulic unit for my 95 Dodge Stealth twin turbo
> AWD,
> I assume
all twin turbos are AWD. Where can I get one new/used for
under
>
300$? It doesn't have to be OEM, I just need that ABS light to turn
off and
> my vehicle to be safe.
>
> 2. Is the keyless entry system
a standard feature on my car or an
> option?
>
> 3. Okay, I
have several questions. This is the last one. What model,
> year
>
Stealth/3000GT have compatible ABS units and is an adapter needed for
>
installation between years/ models?
>
>
-Natalie
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:23:10
-0700
From: "Chris Winkley" <
Chris_Winkley@adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety...long...
Folks...
A suggestion was made to
move this to the Team3S racers group. Not being
a member of that group (even
though I'm an Admin and "founding father"
of Team3S), I've found this
thread fascinating although it has strayed
pretty far from my definition of
"technical". I won't speak for the
other Admins, but I'd like to hear
from others about their local rules
and regulations related to "open track"
racing. We, here in Oregon
(that's "Orygun", not "Oregone") have two
dragstrips and one open
circuit track. The open circuit track, around which
this thread can be
applied is depicted at the following site:
http://www.portlandraceway.com/You'll
find track maps as well a VERY wide spectrum of racing events
(this facility
also contains one of the Oregon 1/4 mile dragstrips).
There are NHRA
sponsored events with jet dragsters and fuelers along
with SCCA club events
that have to follow strict rules and classes such
as Darren has
described. However, more important for the majority of us
(IMO) is that
they also rent out the track to local clubs. There are
Viper clubs, Shelby
clubs, BMW clubs, Porsche clubs, Corvette clubs, to
name a few. I have
attended a few of these events and they let other
non-club vehicles drive
during their club days (like me in my lowly
VR4). The technical checks
are VERY loose, meaning they check to see if
you have coolant overflow
container, a battery tie down, a seat belt, a
helmet, an engine, four tires,
and no apparent dripping fluids. Beyond
that, there are NO vehicle
safety requirements. The objective is for a
common "Joe" (or Chris in this
case) to take his or her car to the
track, a place where the surface is
well known, there are ambulances and
fire trucks present in case of a serious
mishap, instructors for those
who wish to progress to a class where one
can "race" as Geoff described
it (meaning passing in corners, without being
flagged, etc.). It's for
fun, it takes the testosterone off the
freeway, and keeps my precious
VR4 away from the three ton yuppie trucks with
coffee drinking, cell
phone using, cigarette smoking, shaving,
newspaper reading, make-up
applying drivers. True, these drivers are not only
found in yuppie
trucks but, for some odd reason, we have a
disproportionate amount of
yuppie trucks on the Portland freeways. They don't
signal lane changes,
mostly because they're too busy engaging in one or more
of the
aforementioned activities (versus DRIVING their 3 ton weapon).
They
drive below the speed limit in the left hand lane. They seem to be
brain
dead. I consider my 14 mile commute to be a MUCH higher risk
activity
than anything that happens on the open track regardless of whether
I
wear a seatbelt, have a five point harness, or a six point roll
cage.
Yes, people are injured at open track events. MANY more people
are
injured and killed during their daily commute. I'd much prefer that
we
spend our energies in training drivers to develop skills that will
allow
them to pilot their weapons safely, versus adding more
protective
hardware. Otherwise, we might just as well upgrade to Hummers
(or
tanks?) and drive like idiots.
Looking forward...Chris
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
[mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:16
PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
Geoff,
What is a racing group and what is
an open-track group? Tell me. I
need
educated.
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:38:17
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
The objective is for a
>common "Joe" (or
Chris in this case) to take his or her car to the
>track, a place where
the surface is well known, there are ambulances
>and fire trucks present
in case of a serious mishap, instructors for
>those who wish to progress
to a class where one can "race" as Geoff
>described it (meaning passing
in corners, without being flagged, etc.).
>It's for fun,
We
almost did that on Monday. Well, except for a little of the
safety
stuff.
We had Hawkeye Downs (paved half mile oval) to ourselves
-- no
ambulances, fire trucks, safety officials, instructors, track
workers,
flag people or officious club members, but lots of black
rubber marbles
up high to keep things interesting. See? Same as you,
Chris.
Just four cars (a Z06, two Camaros and one VR4) out there running
around
and having a ball. All the other ROWGs I hang out with chickened
out.
Didn't want to risk their pretty M3s, 850i, 5.0 Mustangs,
etc.
The guy who got us track time just said, "Don't hit the %$#$ing wall
and
embarrass me."
With that in mind, we stayed in the lower grooves.
Well, most of the
time anyway. Running like that is ADDICTIVE!! I forgot all
about
practicing for the upcoming Corvette Club autocross and went up
high in
pursuit of the Z06. (the Corvette Club pylons off the lower groove,
you
see).
Anybody on the list run turn-left roundy-round races? If so,
can you
compare roundy-round to open track road racing? Looks like turning
left
might be fun.
Rich/slow old poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:52:12
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: accident reconstruction
The overlooked factor (or "flaw" as
some simple folks like myself might
say)
in Joseph's argument is that the
in-vehicle "black box" is *not*
necessarily
an objective, accurate device
that "automatically" retrieves and stores
information. That black box was
designed and constructed by people.
There are
internal conversions and
computations that must be performed -
mechanically,
electrically, and
electronically - to convert, for example, the rotation
rate
of a shaft or
the electronic pulses from some device (like a speedometer
sensor) into
meaningful information. That conversion is no more accurate
or
precise
than what a person and external tools can perform - the logic,
the
process, the techniques, the physics, the math are all the same.
Meaning,
the "garbage in, garbage out" scenario applies equally to the "black
box"
as
to *any* other source of information. And I don't even need to
mention
the
topic of calibration - another process performed by
people.
To illustrate my point, a "black box" is essentially no different
than
our
engine's computer. They both accept electrical or electronic
input from
external sensors (in fact, they are the same sensors) and use
"computer
software" (or firmware) to interpret that information. Let's take
our
speedometer for instance, since that was used in Joseph's example.
Mitsubishi claims in their service manuals that the factory
speedometer
sensor
is accurate to within -5% to +10% of the actual speed.
If the "black
box" or
engine computer registers a speed of say 75 mph,
the *real* speed could
be as
slow as 68 mph or as fast as 79 mph. And
that is assuming the
speedometer
sensor is actually functioning within
specification, and that
factory-sized,
fresh-tread, tires are on the car
at the proper inflation. If the driver
had
switched to 255/40-17 tires on
a 1991 3000GT VR4, the speedometer could
be off
an additional 2.53%. For
the black box, the information from the speedo
sensor
could easily be
considered "garbage", conditional perhaps on the
eloquence of
the orator.
In the case of an accident, skid marks could provide a more
accurate (if not
more precise) estimate of the *real* speed of the car.
Similar points
could be made for emission control sensors, fuel delivery
components,
supplemental restraint systems, etc.
Anyone that argues that "black
boxes" are objective, accurate devices,
and
anyone that believes that,
simply does not understand electro-mechanical
devices. I am not saying
these devices cannot be accurate and precise; I
am
just saying they are
not automatically or unequivocally so.
Physical factors are always
present - electrical resistance along a wire
or at
the coupling point,
the torque on a screw, friction between moving
surfaces,
assumptions made
in and limitations of the computer software, ... .
The "human factor" is
always present.
Interpretation is always present.
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
To: "Furman,
Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>;
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: accident
reconstruction
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:45:59
US/Eastern
From:
ratkins@cfl.rr.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
accident reconstruction
Just to add to the conversation and to provide
all of you with some more
food
for thought . . . In my business we are
completely reliant on sensors
and
computers. Jeff makes several key
points. Here are my observations.
1) Many times sensors indicate
failure where the actual hardware is
functioning nominally
2)
Sensors do not output engineering units
3) Engineering units are the
result of computer programmed calibration
curves
(approximations) which
translate sensor raw counts to meaningful units
4) Sensors require
re-calibration
5) Some sensors fail gradually
Do you see
potential Black Box defense arguments here?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:18:08
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: accident reconstruction
First, I don't disagree with you in
principal, Jeff. I fully understand
the principles of
electro-mechanical devices. The point I'm trying to
make is that
there's a grave difference in the courtroom between having
a computer say it
and having a person say it. Juries LOVE
technology--it's simple,
persuasive and very impressive. "Black box"
type evidence
(evidence garnered electronically without you even knowing
it) is about the
closest to objective evidence you can get, and very
convincing indeed.
Second, you would not be able to make your argument at trial unless
you
introduced evidence to support it. Therefore, you'd need, at a
minimum,
evidence that Mr. X's speedo was inaccurate as well as
evidence that
Mr. X's "black box" computer was inaccurate or defectively
programmed.
You'd need an expert to do that, who, again, the jury would
likely
perceive as a paid witness for profit.
Assuming this
argument would be permitted, it can be diffused by making
it seem
illogical. Nine times out of ten a jury would hear your
argument as
being "yeah, I thought he'd say that." The tactic would be
to
attack your explanation as an "excuse, finger pointing, and a
stubborn
refusal to accept responsibility for your actions" and to
reaffirm the
accuracy of the computer information by arguing, hell, even
the United States
uses computers--all of which are programmed by
humans--to control some
of the most sophisticated equipment in the
world--like an F-16 Fighter
Jet; and what is the first question
everyone asks after an airline
disaster? "What does the black box say?"
One would argue, "You've
heard all this mumbo jumbo about the accuracy
of the vehicle speed
sensor, but ladies and gentleman, this is the very
same device that every
auto manufacturer in the world expects you to
rely upon the judge a
safe speed! It's the very device that every law
enforcement agency in
the world EXPECTS you to rely upon to judge a safe
speed! And now Mr. X
is telling you, you can't rely on that--it's
inaccurate! This,
despite what Mr. X's computer is telling us! Can you
imagine, ladies
and gentleman, trying to explain to the police officer
who just pulled
you over for speeding, "But officer, it's Mitsubishi's
fault--they even say
in their manual that the speed sensor is 10%
inaccurate. How many
of you believe the police officer will let you off
without receiving a
ticket?"
Another issue you would face is convincing the jury that
your
after-the-fact argument using subjective measurements made by a
person
with an interest in the outcome of the trial is more credible
and
reliable than any potential before-the-fact subjectiveness made by
a
disinterested third party at a remote time.
So, in short, if one
chooses to attack the accuracy and reliability of
the information pulled from
a "Black Box," they better be very well
armed with significantly
convincing evidence to succeed, and it better
be simple. It would be
your job to prove that this seemingly objective
device, which everyone
including the product manufacturer and law
enforcement expects to be accurate
and reliable, was anything but
accurate and reliable.
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius [mailto:jlucius@stealth316.com]
Sent:
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: accident
reconstruction
The overlooked factor (or "flaw" as some simple folks like
myself might
say)
in Joseph's argument is that the in-vehicle "black box"
is *not*
necessarily
an objective, accurate device that "automatically"
retrieves and stores
information. That black box was designed and
constructed by people.
There are
internal conversions and computations
that must be performed -
mechanically,
electrically, and electronically -
to convert, for example, the rotation
rate
of a shaft or the electronic
pulses from some device (like a speedometer
sensor) into meaningful
information. That conversion is no more accurate
or
precise than what a
person and external tools can perform - the logic,
the
process, the
techniques, the physics, the math are all the same.
Meaning,
the "garbage
in, garbage out" scenario applies equally to the "black
box" as
to *any*
other source of information. And I don't even need to mention
the
topic
of calibration - another process performed by people.
To illustrate my
point, a "black box" is essentially no different than
our
engine's
computer. They both accept electrical or electronic input from
external
sensors (in fact, they are the same sensors) and use "computer
software" (or
firmware) to interpret that information. Let's take our
speedometer for
instance, since that was used in Joseph's example.
Mitsubishi claims in
their service manuals that the factory speedometer
sensor
is accurate to
within -5% to +10% of the actual speed. If the "black
box" or
engine
computer registers a speed of say 75 mph, the *real* speed could
be as
slow as 68 mph or as fast as 79 mph. And that is assuming the
speedometer
sensor is actually functioning within specification, and
that
factory-sized,
fresh-tread, tires are on the car at the proper
inflation. If the driver
had
switched to 255/40-17 tires on a 1991 3000GT
VR4, the speedometer could
be off
an additional 2.53%. For the black box,
the information from the speedo
sensor
could easily be considered
"garbage", conditional perhaps on the
eloquence of
the orator. In the
case of an accident, skid marks could provide a more
accurate (if not more
precise) estimate of the *real* speed of the car.
Similar points could be
made for emission control sensors, fuel delivery
components, supplemental
restraint systems, etc.
Anyone that argues that "black boxes" are
objective, accurate devices,
and
anyone that believes that, simply does
not understand electro-mechanical
devices. I am not saying these devices
cannot be accurate and precise; I
am
just saying they are not
automatically or unequivocally so.
Physical factors are always present -
electrical resistance along a wire
or at
the coupling point, the torque
on a screw, friction between moving
surfaces,
assumptions made in and
limitations of the computer software, ... .
The "human factor" is always
present.
Interpretation is always present.
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
To: "Furman,
Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>;
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: accident
reconstruction
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:29:03
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: accident reconstruction
Number 4 would probably be the strongest
argument. However, you would
need to present some evidence that the
relevant sensors and/or "Black
Box" at issue were in need of
re-calibration. Otherwise, the argument
would be inadmissible
speculation. I'm not entirely certain that 1 or 5
will get you
anywhere unless there was an issue of product failure.
That would,
again, require the presentation of specific evidence. I
don't think 2
or 3 will get you anywhere because the manner of output
is
irrelevant. The fact that there was some input to the sensor, an
output
by the sensor, and a translation by the host computer, all of
which are
intended to function as a system, is what's relevant.
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
ratkins@cfl.rr.com
[mailto:ratkins@cfl.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:46
AM
To: Jeff Lucius;
Subject: Re: Team3S: accident
reconstruction
Just to add to the conversation and to provide all of you
with some more
food
for thought . . . In my business we are completely
reliant on sensors
and
computers. Jeff makes several key
points. Here are my observations.
1) Many times sensors indicate
failure where the actual hardware is
functioning nominally
2)
Sensors do not output engineering units
3) Engineering units are the
result of computer programmed calibration
curves
(approximations) which
translate sensor raw counts to meaningful units
4) Sensors require
re-calibration
5) Some sensors fail gradually
Do you see
potential Black Box defense arguments here?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:59:00
-0500
From: "Mark & Brenda" <
mebmark@airmail.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
Hi folks, I got her back from the tranni shop
and on the way home after
she was warmed up I punched it a little in 5th got
up to about 95 and
guess what, it popped out of 5th. I called the shop
and they wanted to
drive it, I took it back and let the owner of the shop
drive it, well it
didn't pop out on him even at 100 mph, so I said to
let me drive it,
and as I was driving it popped out 2 times, at least he got
to see it,
so she is back at the shop. But ya know if they replaced all
of what
they said, synchros, bearings, 5th gear, slide and seals, you
would
think it would have been fixed. I never did get to see the gear
box
tore down as I requested, and I never saw all the old parts or the
new
ones, only parts I saw was the old worn 5th gear. So I'm just a
little
bit on the defensive side at the moment but keeping my mouth
shut, not
sure what to do? I guess just hope for the best? Its supposed to be
a
reputable tranni shop from what I been told. What would you do if
you
were me?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:33:07
-0700 (PDT)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Electric Window Re-Install Question
OK gang, I replaced my electric
window drive rail,
what a MAJOR PITA!!!
Now I will also need to have the
tinting redone thanx
to multiple gouges in it from removing
and
reinstalling the window :(
My question is:
There are several
adjustable "lashes" that support
the upper part of the window ('canter' for
lack of
a better term), one in the front and one in the back
of the
window. I cannot for the life of me get the
rear one back into the
door.
If the window is out and you install the adjuster it
is impossible
to get the window back in.
If the window is in you cannot install the
adjuster
because there is not room to get it back in, that is
true in all
window positions (Up, down and all points in-between). I
spent over an hour
of cussing and stressing the door frame and window to
near breaking
points to get this dang thing in. PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Does
anyone know the
trick to this thing? It is the rear one and has two
small hooks that hook up
over the top of the door frame with a single
tab that fits in a groove.
It has an allen wrench screw that you can
adjust by turning that will push
the adjuster against the window to
force it out, or if you loosen it,
that will bring the window in
further.... I cannot get this thing back in....
Roger L F15DOC
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:50:42
-0700
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
I would ask for your old parts.
They are your property and it is your
right to ask for them. The shop
will have no choice but give them to
you. You probably won't be
able to tell what is what but you will be
able to look at it and look for
worn or missing teeth. This prevents
the shop from claiming they
did something they didn't. I make this a
standard policy of mine and I
always tell every mechanic that touches my
car that I want my old
parts. It is kind of neat to examine your old
parts and see
exactly what went wrong too. You could learn something.
It may be
too late in your case. They may have already thrown your old
parts
out. I'm no expert in trannies so I can't tell you if they can
fix it
by just making an adjustment. It doesn't hurt to ask and
doesn't
cost you a thing. Choose your words carefully so you don't tick
them
off.
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:13:33
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Hey tire dude
I am beginning to think I got ripped off.
Maybe
the tire dude can explain (somebody on this list works at a tire
shop) or
anybody else with tire knowledge.
I drove my Eagle Talon on a going-flat
Blizzak snow tire for about two
miles. I changed the tire, took it to Tires
Plus for repair, and they
pronounced the tire dead. It held air and had
no cuts or punctures (I
suspect somebody let the air out of it), but they
pointed at the scuffs
inside the tire wall and the mound of black tire
crumbs inside the
tire, and said I had ruint the tire's sidewall from the
inside by
running on it flat. Had to buy a new one at $165.
The tire
had to be ordered, so I had them remount the dead tire so I'd
have something
to drive on. With lots of mumbling and dire warnings
about imminent
blowouts, they did so. The tire has been holding air for
two days now, and I
am beginning to wonder if the tire is OK or not. It
looks perfect from
the outside.
All of us have run on a flat, pumped air back into it,
and drove on it
for another 10,000 miles, ain't we? Was I fed a lot of
bull?
I sure hate to think that, because I've bought all my tires
from this
particular store for at least ten years.
Whaddaya think,
tire dude? Is this the latest tire scam, or is there
something to
it?
Rich/slow old poop
92 Eagle Talon TSi AWD turbo
94 3000GT
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:32:37
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
Hmmm... Maybe it is your shifter cable that
is getting pulled somehow
because of old motor mounts. That cable might just
need some adjustment.
I
am too lazy now to go get off the chair to go and
look under the hood,
so
try to follow my thoughts...
There are two
shifter cables out there for two shifter mechanism arms on
the tranny.
One cable moves when you rock the gear shifter up and down.
The
other
moves when you move the gear shifter left and right. You have a
5-speed, so
the cable that moves when you rock the shifter left and
right
is probably
being pulled when your shifter in the 5th gear or reverse.
If
you adjust
that cable (loosen or tighten it up), then the engine would
rock
just
like before but it won't shift the tranny. The adjustments for
these
cables are either under the radio or on the transmission.
Try
punching the engine in reverse. Would it shift into neutral as
well?
Philip
At 19:59 9/11/2002, Mark & Brenda
wrote:
>Hi folks, I got her back from the tranni shop and on the way home
after
>she was warmed up I punched it a little in 5th got up to about
95 and
>guess what, it popped out of 5th.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:40:35
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Hey tire dude
This is just me, but I would keep just pump that
tire up to 80 or 100
psi
and if the tire is still round and there are no
bulges on the sidewalls
then I would keep it.
Philip
At 22:13
9/11/2002,
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
wrote:
>I drove my Eagle Talon on a going-flat Blizzak snow tire for about
two
>miles. I changed the tire, took it to Tires Plus for repair, and they
>pronounced the tire dead. It held air and had no cuts or punctures (I
>suspect somebody let the air out of it), but they pointed at the
scuffs
>inside the tire wall and the mound of black tire crumbs inside
the
tire,
>and said I had ruint the tire's sidewall from the inside by
running on
it
>flat. Had to buy a new one at $165.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:47:45
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
Correction: There is just one shifter arm on
the tranny. Once cable
rotates
it and the other cable moves it up and
down.
At 22:32 9/11/2002, Philip V. Glazatov wrote:
>There are two
shifter cables out there for two shifter mechanism arms
on
>the
tranny. One cable moves when you rock the gear shifter up and
down.
>The other moves when you move the gear shifter left and
right.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:58:43
-0700 (PDT)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hey tire dude
This is true.
I am not the tire dude but I know this
one.
The sidewall gets soft from the damage and is most
softer especially
when cornering, your tire will tend
to bend with the turn and is much more
likely to blow
out. Sorry, it happened to me once as well when the
wife
drove on a completely flat tire for a block...
Safety says get a new one,
which you did :)
Not a scam...
Roger L F15DOC
- --- "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net"
<
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
wrote:
> I am beginning to think I got ripped off.
> Maybe the tire
dude can explain (somebody on this
> list works at a tire shop) or anybody
else with tire
> knowledge.
>
> I drove my Eagle Talon on a
going-flat Blizzak snow
> tire for about two miles. I changed the tire,
took
> it to Tires Plus for repair, and they pronounced the
> tire
dead. It held air and had no cuts or punctures
> (I suspect somebody let
the air out of it), but they
> pointed at the scuffs inside the tire wall
and the
> mound of black tire crumbs inside the tire, and said
> I
had ruint the tire's sidewall from the inside by
> running on it flat. Had
to buy a new one at $165.
>
> The tire had to be ordered, so I had
them remount
> the dead tire so I'd have something to drive on.
>
With lots of mumbling and dire warnings about
> imminent blowouts, they
did so. The tire has been
> holding air for two days now, and I am
beginning to
> wonder if the tire is OK or not. It looks perfect
>
from the outside.
>
> All of us have run on a flat, pumped air back
into
> it, and drove on it for another 10,000 miles, ain't
>
we? Was I fed a lot of bull?
>
> I sure hate to think
that, because I've bought all
> my tires from this particular store for at
least ten
> years.
>
> Whaddaya think, tire dude? Is
this the latest tire
> scam, or is there something to it?
>
>
Rich/slow old poop
> 92 Eagle Talon TSi AWD turbo
> 94 3000GT
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:24:28
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Hey tire dude
The inner liner is no more than a half-inner
tube... So long as it
holds air and the outside of the tire is not
damaged, you are most
likely fine... However, within some miles of driving,
the additional
heat and such may cause rapid wear/separations very very
easy... If
there is small sign of wear on the inner liner, we at
Discount Tire,
recommend replacement and will replace under our road hazard
warranty,
however it is not 100% necessary. If it is worn heavily, or
is
disfigured, inside or outside, or is a decent amount of rubber
shavings
loose inside the tire, then it HAS to be replaced and deemed not
safe...
Each case will be very different from another...
-
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:29:08
-0700
From: "MThompson" <
mathompson@cox.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
Hello - Just a thought, something may be in
the way. Try flipping the
radiator hose, the may have installed it
upside down. Don't ask how I
may
know this.
LOL
Regards,
Mark Thompson
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of
Mark & Brenda
Sent:
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:59 PM
To:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject: Team3S:
Slipping out of 5th
Hi folks, I got her back from the tranni shop and on
the way home after
she
was warmed up I punched it a little in 5th got up
to about 95 and guess
what, it popped out of 5th. I called the shop and they
wanted to drive
it, I
took it back and let the owner of the shop drive it,
well it didn't pop
out
on him even at 100 mph, so I said to let me drive
it, and as I was
driving
it popped out 2 times, at least he got to see it,
so she is back at the
shop.
But ya know if they replaced all of what they
said, synchros, bearings,
5th
gear, slide and seals, you would think it
would have been fixed. I never
did
get to see the gear box tore down as I
requested, and I never saw all
the
old parts or the new ones, only parts I
saw was the old worn 5th gear.
So
I'm just a little bit on the defensive
side at the moment but keeping my
mouth shut, not sure what to do? I guess
just hope for the best? Its
supposed to be a reputable tranni shop from what
I been told. What would
you
do if you were me?
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:46:51
-0500
From: "Jim Fay" <
jfay@tssu.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
Tires
Rich,
You did not get ripped off. We have all seen the
semi tire carcasses
lying
on the road. These are from running a tire
with low air. The sidewall
flexes so much more when the tire is low, it
builds up heat. This heat
is
what kills a tire. It causes
separation of the sidewall from the belts
under the tread. Since your
tire had all the little BB's inside, you
have
either degraded the sidewall
or bead area of the tire from friction of
extra
flex. Just like
bending a wire back and forth, it will break or weaken
significantly.
Some wires take more bends to break, but they are still
weakened.
Get the
new tire and treat the one your on as if it will fail on
the
next
rev. 165 is not even the cost of repairing a paint scuff if
it causes a
slide off.
Jim
91 RT TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:22:08
-0500
From: "Jim Fay" <
jfay@tssu.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Slipping out of 5th
Mark,
Only when it warms up? Are you
like me and do not run the car in boost
until parts have properly warmed and
expanded to prevent wear, or does
it
only jump out when it's
warm?
Do check what the others have said. You can easily check the
levers
'throw'
in fifth and compare it to the other gears.
Triple
check the cable mount on the trans, and make sure it is secure.
Although
it does not seem to make sense, the engine does rock more in
the
upper
gears. When the engine works to propel the car, it will
rock
forward,
as rotation is clockwise from the belt end. The
inertia of the car will
determine amount of rock. In first, the eng
turns clockwise, against
the
trans (inertia of the car since trans is tied
to wheels)which will cause
the
engine block to rotate counter
clockwise. Since first is geared down
the
car will jump easier so
not as much twist of engine occurs (Why a
slipping
clutch shows up in
fifth gear first). When in fifth gear, the engine
works
against a
load that takes a long time to respond, so the engine gets
alot
more time
to twist and maybe pull its self out of gear. Of course,
all
this
assumes that the throw lever is toward the front of the car when
in
fifth,
which I believe it does.
Try a cable adjustment.
Lengthen the cable just a bit and see
what
happens.
Jim
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:16:50
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
Not let a tranny shop guy drive my car at
100mph! (LOL) Seriously, I'd
probably sit tight for the second round
since you're dealing with a
reputable shop and the guy is willing to take a
second crack at it.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark &
Brenda [mailto:mebmark@airmail.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:59
PM
To:
Team3S@team3s.comSubject:
Team3S: Slipping out of 5th
Hi folks, I got her back from the tranni shop
and on the way home after
she
was warmed up I punched it a little in 5th
got up to about 95 and guess
what, it popped out of 5th. I called the shop
and they wanted to drive
it, I
took it back and let the owner of the shop
drive it, well it didn't pop
out
on him even at 100 mph, so I said to let
me drive it, and as I was
driving
it popped out 2 times, at least he got
to see it, so she is back at the
shop.
But ya know if they replaced all of
what they said, synchros, bearings,
5th
gear, slide and seals, you would
think it would have been fixed. I never
did
get to see the gear box tore
down as I requested, and I never saw all
the
old parts or the new ones,
only parts I saw was the old worn 5th gear.
So
I'm just a little bit on
the defensive side at the moment but keeping my
mouth shut, not sure what to
do? I guess just hope for the best? Its
supposed to be a reputable tranni
shop from what I been told. What would
you
do if you were
me?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:56:34
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Hey tire dude
They are obligated to tell you the safest
approach to avoid liability.
From
what they saw on the tire, they wouldn't
bet your life and their
insurance
on the safety of the tire. They
are looking out for your best interests
for
selfish reasons. I'd use
the tire as a spare.
Chuck Willis
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:58:01
-0400
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <
joshua@unconundrum.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Curious about Supra Fuel Pump
Hey guys, I wanted to see if anyone
else here has installed the supra
fuel pump? I just installed it about
2 weeks ago and have noticed the
car seems to take longer to turn over then
with the Mitsubishi one. The
car doesn't have any problems running or
such, but when I looked at the
graphs it seemed to show that the supra pump
ran better then the
Mitsubishi one at lower voltage so I am somewhat at a
loss as to why it
would take longer to start up. Any assistance would
be greatly
appreciated.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#950
***************************************