Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, September 11 2002 Volume 01 :
Number
949
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:41:57 -0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Throttle Question
I've been having an odd problem with the throttle my 91
Stealth TT. Just
the other day I was driving along the highway and decided to
accelerate
up a bit. I was going about 20 at the time (merging
into traffic), and
was in second gear. So I began to slowly press down
on the pedal to get
that "Turbo" rush and speed up to highway speeds,
but when I left off
the gas, acceleration continued. I quickly pressed
the clutch pedal and
turned the car off. If I would not have
turned the car off, the engine
definitely would have red-lined. Since
the pedal seemed okay, I started
the car up again, and everything was
fine. After I got the car home, I
checked the linkage and nothing
is binding; I checked the dashpot and
it's operating normally;
there are no obstructions in the linkage.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Joe
Above email is for intended recipient only and
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*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:50:57
-0700
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Team3S:
Front Dust Shields are Off
Thanks for all the tips. I gulped and applied
a little big screwdriver
leverage and with very modest warping of the sheet
metal, the dust
shields
are off. I made a little bracket to support the
ABS cable, mostly to
keep
it from rubbing on the suspension
members.
Thanks again for all the tips. Now I just have to change my rear
pads
and
bleed the system. I'm off to Thunderhill for another High
Performance
Driving School on September 20.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A.
Gerhard 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl
White
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:15:23
+0000
From:
sport2evr@att.netSubject: Team3S: engine
surging
I have a '94 3k GT non-turbo
The engine has started to idle at
2000 r's
At times it returns to 600 r's and at other times it surges between
1400
and 2000 r's.
Any body have any idea what to look at or for.???
It
all seems to have started ever since I went through the car wash with
under
carriage wash.
Thanks
Joe
'943kGTSL
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:16:24
-0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Big brother
>>You realize, of course, that the next
step will be automated traffic
tickets based on GPS readings. Trucking
companies already track
truculent truckers tremendously tactlessly with
onboard GPS equipment,
and police use photo radars to give us traffic
tickets by mail. GPS
tickets are next. <<
That just gives us
more incentive to maintain and rebuild our present
vehicles for
decades.
Pete Rivenburg
Privenburg@firstam.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:22:38
-0700
From: Andrew Woll <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Air Bags and Lawsuits
A couple of years ago I represented a man who was
badly hurt when he was
hit by a drunk head on. He was in his lane and the
drunk was in my
clients lane also. In the accident both cars came to a
dead stop right
where the impact occurred. The drunks air bag deployed. The
clients did
not. The drunk was not hurt. The client was. The drunk was
driving a
chevy passenger car. The client was driving a Blazer.
I
sued GM based on the contention that the clients air bag should have
deployed
and if it had done so then he would not have been hurt.
As it turned
out, GM, even then (I think it was in 1997), had circuits
in the air bag
system, that kept track of the amount of "pulse" that was
generated by
the accident. the "pulse" reflects the amount of
decelerating force involved
and the time period over which the "pulse"
is made. The importance is
that this "pulse" is what determines whether
or not the air bag
deploys. It is not a simple system, although to the
user all of this is
invisible.
As it turned out, the Blazer's "pulse" for deployment is
higher than
the average car because for SUV's designed for off road use the
air bag
system takes into account occasionally hitting a rock or a
tree, and
when this happens, neither the MFG or the USer wants the air bag
to
deploy. The result was that both air bag systems were found to
have
deployed properly. I was shocked at the amount of property damage
to
both cars involved. Anyone seeing the photos of the cars
immediately
thought the air bags should have deployed. Science said
otherwise.
The case settled with a sealed settlement. This
is the other side of
the coin. Manufacturers use this method to keep info
about these systems
from the public. Even now, I cannot tell you any
more than I have.
Andy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:45:46
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
But even in an SUV I have seen them go off
from taps in bumper-to-bumper
traffic when someone answers the phone.
Maybe back then they made them
never deploy but now when they see
replacing an airbag is $650,
insurance on knowing they were not at fault
saves millions, and other
reasons, they set them to deploy at lower
speeds. Passenger cars have
the 5 mph bump limit I'm pretty sure but
the impact you are talking
about was certainly more than a rock or tree would
do to an SUV.
I have a pic of a friend's car and airbags deployed
and the car was hit
broadside (not front or rear). That means the car's
front or rear
sensor detected enough of a shock that it
deployed.
Thanks for the story but that brings up the question again I
think Jim
Berry was asking about removing the air bag for the track since
you
don't want to bag to go off while you are in your 5-point harness
(no
point really) and you want to be able to see where to steer the car
if
you have to and an airbag would compromise that
situation.
But then insurance folks would have a field day if they saw
your car
with the airbag fuse removed and a harness in the car. You
would
certainly not win the argument 9 times out of 10.
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Woll
Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:23
A couple of years ago I represented a
man who was badly hurt when he was
hit by a drunk head on. He was in his lane
and the drunk was in my
clients lane also. In the accident both cars
came to a dead stop right
where the impact occurred. The drunks air bag
deployed. The clients did
not. The drunk was not hurt. The client was.
The drunk was driving a
chevy passenger car. The client was driving a
Blazer.
I sued GM based on the contention that the clients air bag
should have
deployed and if it had done so then he would not have been
hurt.
As it turned out, GM, even then (I think it was in 1997), had
circuits
in the air bag system, that kept track of the amount of "pulse" that
was
generated by the accident. the "pulse" reflects the amount
of
decelerating force involved and the time period over which the
"pulse"
is made. The importance is that this "pulse" is what determines
whether
or not the air bag deploys. It is not a simple system, although to
the
user all of this is invisible.
As it turned out, the Blazer's
"pulse" for deployment is higher than
the average car because for SUV's
designed for off road use the air bag
system takes into account
occasionally hitting a rock or a tree, and
when this happens, neither the MFG
or the USer wants the air bag to
deploy. The result was that both air
bag systems were found to have
deployed properly. I was shocked at the amount
of property damage to
both cars involved. Anyone seeing the photos of
the cars immediately
thought the air bags should have deployed. Science
said otherwise.
The case settled with a sealed settlement.
This is the other side of
the coin. Manufacturers use this method to keep
info about these systems
from the public. Even now, I cannot tell you
any more than I have.
Andy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:54:47
-0700 (PDT)
From: glenn vrfour <
vr4glenn@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Big brother
They don't need GPS.
Most major roads now have
traffic cameras. Add OCR to pick up the
license plate numbers.
Then
track how long it takes a car to get from camera A to camera B.
-
-or-
using triangulation, they can pinpoint your cell phone within 50
feet or
so. Do this over
time and you know how fast someone is
going. Whenever your phone is on,
it is transmitting
- even if you
aren't talking on it.
- - or -
You go whizzing past an off duty
cop. He cell-phones ahead and you get
pulled over by
uniformed
on-duty cop. (had a friend busted in this manner. Off duty
cop had a
Carter-Speedo
so could only testify that he was going over 85)
Best
bet is to misbehave in areas away from people, cell phones, and
traffic
cameras.
Glenn
- --- "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
wrote:
> You realize, of course, that the next step will be automated
traffic
tickets based on GPS readings.
<cut>
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:09:51
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Big brother
>Best bet is to misbehave in areas away from
people,
>cell phones, and traffic cameras.
I did. I wuz out this
morning, checking the temps after refilling the
radiator. I romped through my
100 mph twisties way out here in the
boonies, slowed down to enter the
huge metropolis of Toddville (pop.
20), and there he was, a county mountie,
just cruising toward me.
Fortunately, I was doing 20 mph at the time.
30 seconds prior, and it
would have been curtains for sure.
Point is,
ain't no place safe no more. It's getting near impossible to
check out the
car these days. Well, not impossible, just difficult.
Car seems back to
normal, by the way, after refilling with water. Guess
I better start looking
for those pinhole leaks.
Also, with the 032R race tires still mounted,
it sure handles well
through the twisties. Too bad I can't run them on the
street all the
time.
Rich/slow old grandpoop
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:13:32
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Big brother
FWIW --- There was a case [ about a year ago, in Florida ---
I think ]
where a guy rented a car and after turning it in noticed his CC
was
billed an additional $450 for the car rental. Upon
investigation he
found that he had been charged for exceeding a rental
company imposed 80
mph speed limit in the car. A company installed GPS
system tracks the
car and he was charged for exceeding the company mandated
80 mph limit
three times at $150 each. When he complained he was told
that the
contract he signed included the speeding information --- he took
them to
court and won. Apparently the speeding info should have been
more
prominently displayed --- too much fine print. According to the
articles
I read at the time most car rental outfits have GPS units on
their cars
to keep tabs on the whereabouts of their product.
I
don't care for the idea of them tracking my whereabouts but it's their
damn
property and they have the right to protect it as they see fit. I
would like
to be better informed as to what and how they are doing
though. If I
don't like the idea I don't have to rent
their car.
As to black boxes
in cars, I hate the idea. In the case of the Vettes GM
said it was installed
is some cars as a test to find out more info on
accidents. As you can
imagine the lawyers who owned Vetts jumped all
over them. I think you'll find
that any system devised by the system to
track the activities of
citizens can and will be circumvented by the
tech types --- I'd rather not
have to worry about it but the government
seems committed to protecting me
from myself. Hmmm -- rev limiters in
the black box and maybe a flashing
light on top of the car that flashes
if you've been speeding or if you go
into an area where drugs are sold
or if you're driving while you should
be at work ---
endless
possibilities.
Jim
Berry
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <
privenburg@firstam.com>
To:
"Team3s (E-mail)" <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:16 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Big
brother
> You realize, of course, that the next step will be automated
traffic
> tickets based on GPS readings. Trucking companies already track
> truculent truckers tremendously tactlessly with onboard GPS
equipment,
> and police use photo radars to give us traffic tickets by
mail. GPS
> tickets are next. <<
>
> That just gives
us more incentive to maintain and rebuild our present
> vehicles for
decades.
>
> Pete Rivenburg
>
Privenburg@firstam.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:27:59
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Big brother
You can run them when they are new and when worn they
just won't pass
inspection but you can still run them as they are a DOT tire
as far as I
know. Get pulled over or in an accident with them
though and you'll
have some explaining to do.
For the pinhole leak how
about putting in some dye that is seen under
ultraviolet light? Is
there something to buy that won't hurt the system
when poured in and
cycled around a few times?
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
merritt@cedar-rapids.netSent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:10
>Best bet is to misbehave in areas
away from people,
>cell phones, and traffic cameras.
I did. I wuz
out this morning, checking the temps after refilling the
radiator. I romped
through my 100 mph twisties way out here in the
boonies, slowed down to
enter the huge metropolis of Toddville (pop.
20), and there he was, a county
mountie, just cruising toward me.
Fortunately, I was doing 20 mph at
the time. 30 seconds prior, and it
would have been curtains for
sure.
Point is, ain't no place safe no more. It's getting near impossible
to
check out the car these days. Well, not impossible, just difficult.
Car seems back to normal, by the way, after refilling with water.
Guess
I better start looking for those pinhole leaks.
Also, with the
032R race tires still mounted, it sure handles well
through the twisties. Too
bad I can't run them on the street all the
time.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 09:52:35
-0700
From: "Chris Winkley" <
Chris_Winkley@adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
Folks...
Since we're vaguely
having a technical thread (removing air bags as a
form of weight savings for
open track racing) I'll point out that,
thanks to the efforts of the
National Motorists Association (NMA), you
can take your car to a dealer and
have a switch installed to defeat your
airbag(s). This was the result
of a long standing battle related to
both children and adults being seriously
injured (in some cases, killed)
by the deployment of the airbag. Would
they have died without the
airbag? Who knows. Being an American, I believe in
freedom of choice. I
choose not to wear a seatbelt, regardless of the laws.
I lost five
relatives in a head-on collision...they were all wearing
their seatbelts
and were driving under the speed limit. I drive the speed I
consider to
be safe considering the road condition, traffic density, my
physical
condition, and the condition of my vehicle. I wish everyone else
would
do the same and we could live without more laws dictating how I
live my
life.
FWIW...rental car companies are already issuing speeding
tickets to
renters, based on speeds clocked by the GPS systems. If you want
to
follow some of the bizarre ways our government spends our tax
dollars,
visit the NMA site at:
http://www.motorists.com/index.htmlLooking
forward...Chris
- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
[mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:46
AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
<snip>
Thanks for the
story but that brings up the question again I think Jim
Berry was asking
about removing the air bag for the track since you
don't want to bag to
go off while you are in your 5-point harness (no
point really) and you want
to be able to see where to steer the car if
you have to and an airbag
would compromise that situation.
But then insurance folks would
have a field day if they saw your car
with the airbag fuse removed and a
harness in the car. You would
certainly not win the argument 9
times out of 10.
- --Flash!
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:21:31
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: engine surging
this is called "hunting". The ECU can't
establish a stable idle speed
at 750 +/-50 rpm, so it goes up to a default
idle speed of roughly 1500
rpm. Look for an intake leak or a vacuum
tube that has decayed. Any
check engine light? Don't know if there is a
curb idle screw on the NA.
Others have mentioned losing
this.
Chuck Willlis
- -----Original Message-----
From:
sport2evr@att.net
[mailto:sport2evr@att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:15 AM
To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: engine surging
I have a '94 3k GT non-turbo
The engine has
started to idle at 2000 r's
At times it returns to 600 r's and at other times
it
surges between 1400 and 2000 r's.
Any body have any idea what to look
at or for.???
It all seems to have started ever since I went through
the
car wash with under carriage
wash.
Thanks
Joe
'943kGTSL
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:49:22
-0700 (PDT)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Air Bags and Lawsuits
Chris,
Are you a gambling man?
You are
playing against the odds with the seatbelt
decision... I agree it is your
decision to make, but
make that decision for the right reason, not
because
you want to make your own choices.
Odds are against you surviving
an accident when not restrained... But
you know that :) Roger L
F15DOC
- --- Chris Winkley <
Chris_Winkley@adp.com> wrote:
>
Folks...
>
> Since we're vaguely having a technical thread
(removing air bags as a
> form of weight savings for open track racing)
I'll point out that,
> thanks to the efforts of the National Motorists
Association (NMA), you
> can take your car to a dealer and have a switch
installed to defeat
your
> airbag(s). This was the result of a long
standing battle related to
both
> children and adults being seriously
injured (in some cases, killed) by
> the deployment of the airbag. Would
they have died without the airbag?
> Who knows. Being an American, I
believe in freedom of choice. I choose
> not to wear a seatbelt,
regardless of the laws. I lost five relatives
in
> a head-on
collision...they were all wearing their seatbelts and were
> driving under
the speed limit. I drive the speed I consider to be safe
> considering the
road condition, traffic density, my physical
condition,
> and the
condition of my vehicle. I wish everyone else would do the
same
> and
we could live without more laws dictating how I live my life.
>
>
FWIW...rental car companies are already issuing speeding tickets to
>
renters, based on speeds clocked by the GPS systems. If you want to
>
follow some of the bizarre ways our government spends our tax dollars,
>
visit the NMA site at:
>
>
http://www.motorists.com/index.html>
> Looking forward...Chris
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:06:07
EDT
From:
Jawscardodger@cs.comSubject: Team3S:
Oil Pump Replacement ?
Does anybody have oil pump replacement
instructions?
Thanks Jim
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:37:35
-0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
The NMA is an awesome organization! I have
been a member for 2 years
now. One of the other accomplishments to their
credit was the removal of
Federal mandated 55mph speed limits and
allowing the states to set
their own limits. This has been the single
greatest release of Federal
power back to the States in the past 50
years.
Far as seatbelts go Chris there is a bit of a flip side to that.
I
totally 100% agree that you can do with your life as you please and
if
you do not wish to wear a seatbelt or have your airbag on, that is
your
choice to make. Fact of them matter is that it is undisputable
that
seatbelts help a lot in preventing injuries and death. I am very
sorry
it did not help with your family members, but on average it makes a
huge
difference, I know first hand. My concern is what happens if say
I
cause an accident and the person I hit was not wearing a seatbelt
and
sustains severe injuries to their face (very common when their
head
goes through the windshield) whereas with the seatbelt he would
just
have a burse. Is it my fault for hitting them, or is it their fault
for
not using the seatbelt? Say I also don't have insurance. An
accident
that would cost me $10k (for the cars damage) could cost hundreds
of
thousands for personal injuries and reconstructive facial
surgeries....
It is your right to chose to protect yourself with the
seatbelt, but
should an accident occur, whom is responsible for the
injuries
sustained?
Just a debate man :) Glad to see a fellow NMA
member.
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris
Winkley
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 9:53 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
Folks...
Since we're vaguely
having a technical thread (removing air bags as a
form of weight savings for
open track racing) I'll point out that,
thanks to the efforts of the
National Motorists Association (NMA), you
can take your car to a dealer and
have a switch installed to defeat your
airbag(s). This was the result
of a long standing battle related to
both children and adults being seriously
injured (in some cases, killed)
by the deployment of the airbag. Would
they have died without the
airbag? Who knows. Being an American, I believe in
freedom of choice. I
choose not to wear a seatbelt, regardless of the laws.
I lost five
relatives in a head-on collision...they were all wearing
their seatbelts
and were driving under the speed limit. I drive the speed I
consider to
be safe considering the road condition, traffic density, my
physical
condition, and the condition of my vehicle. I wish everyone else
would
do the same and we could live without more laws dictating how I
live my
life.
FWIW...rental car companies are already issuing speeding
tickets to
renters, based on speeds clocked by the GPS systems. If you want
to
follow some of the bizarre ways our government spends our tax
dollars,
visit the NMA site at:
http://www.motorists.com/index.htmlLooking
forward...Chris
- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
[mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:46
AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
<snip>
Thanks for the
story but that brings up the question again I think Jim
Berry was asking
about removing the air bag for the track since you
don't want to bag to
go off while you are in your 5-point harness (no
point really) and you want
to be able to see where to steer the car if
you have to and an airbag
would compromise that situation.
But then insurance folks would
have a field day if they saw your car
with the airbag fuse removed and a
harness in the car. You would
certainly not win the argument 9
times out of 10.
- --Flash!
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:51:10
-0400
From: Mark Frouhar <
mfrouhar@bear.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Big brother
Can't you get the inverse derivative or something and
determine speed at
time of impact from that
information?
Where is this information stored? Can it be
disabled?
thanks
-Mark Frouhar
95'
VR4
The 2700lb 85 TA
http://www.geocities.com/Legoland0Roger
Gerl wrote:
>
> Umpf... I remember that the impact sensors
(G-Sensors) max value are
> stored when the airbag engages. Maybe from
this the speed can be
> calculated !
>
> BTW, never install
an Apexi RSM or Blitz Power Meter as they also
> store the peak values
;-) LOL
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:09:31
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
Ok this is where
some more of my knowledge comes in. My father is a
certified accident
reconstruction instructor (he also does accident
reconstruction along
with a friend on all fatalities)
The police use formulas that take in to
account vehicle weight, contact
patch area (tire width), road conditions, and
a couple other variables I
cant remember. Using all this
information they are able to calculate
within +/- 3MPH the vehicles actual
speed at time of initial
impact/incident and
extrapolate from there speed
for all other impacts/incidents.
Prime example a wethersfield officer
was responding code 3 (lights +
siren) to a shots fired call, the officers
car slide out of control
coming around a corner hit a curb and flipped
onto its roof, then
sliding approximately 15ft before hitting a tree and
coming to rest.
The town suspended the officer with out pay,
pending an
investigation.....
My father and his partner we able to
determine that this officer was
traveling at most 46 mph (due to lateral yaw
skid marks) before he hit
the curb, the car was obviously a total loss
but the officer was not
driving recklessly (as the town wanted to
believe).
So a black box makes it easier to determine speed but the
technology is
there to find out that info anyway.
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Mark Frouhar [SMTP:mfrouhar@bear.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:51 PM
> Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big brother
>
> Can't you get the inverse
derivative or something and determine speed
> at time of impact from that
information?
>
> Where is this information stored? Can
it be disabled?
>
> thanks
>
> -Mark
Frouhar
> 95' VR4
> The 2700lb
85 TA
>
http://www.geocities.com/Legoland0***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:40:53
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Temperature problems again.
Adding to Riyan's astute
observation - it also helps if you remove the
coolant overflow reservoir and
clean it out. The crud that collects
there can prevent the vacuum
relief system from sucking in coolant and
can also interfere with the low
coolant sensor.
Chuck Willis
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Riyan Mynuddin [mailto:riyan@hotpop.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002
12:15 AM
To: Team3S;
merritt@cedar-rapids.netSubject:
RE: Team3S: Temperature problems again.
Rich / team3s-
I posted
awhile ago with a very similar problem. The problem turned out
to be air
pockets in the coolant. Remember that your radiator cap has
two
pressure caps and a vacuum relief valve. The vacuum relief valve
will
suck coolant out of the reserve bottle AFTER your car stops and
cools down.
But if the valve ain't working right, you will always see
coolant in
the reserve bottle and thus think you have plenty of
coolant.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:43:08
-0700
From: Andrew Woll <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Air Bags and Lawsuits
I agree - you can do as you please -- but
--- After litigating thousands
of accidents, from low speed rear enders, to
head on collisions between
semi's, I can tell you without hesitation
that seatbelts save lives en
masse, and a combo seat belt, shoulder harness,
and air bag, is
unbelievably efficient. These things, along with design
improvements in
frames, taken right off the race track, gives us a much
better chance of
survival than, say, the 40's and 50's. But again - its
your choice.
Andy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tigran
Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air Bags and
Lawsuits
| The NMA is an awesome organization! I have been a member for 2
years
| now. One of the other accomplishments to their credit was the
removal
| of Federal mandated 55mph speed limits and allowing the states to
set
their own
| limits.| This has been the single greatest release of
Federal power
back to the
| States in the past 50 years.
|
| Far as
seatbelts go Chris there is a bit of a flip side to that. I
| totally 100%
agree that you can do with your life as you please and if
| you do not
wish to wear a seatbelt or have your airbag on, that is
| your choice to
make. Fact of them matter is that it is undisputable
that seatbelts help a
| lot in preventing injuries and death. I am very sorry it did not
help
with
| your family members, but on average it makes a huge
difference, I know
| first hand. My concern is what happens if say I
cause an accident and
| the person I hit was not wearing a seatbelt and
sustains severe
injuries to their
| face (very common when their head
goes through the windshield) whereas
| with the seatbelt he would just
have a burse. Is it my fault for
| hitting them, or is it their fault for
not using the seatbelt? Say I
also don't have
| insurance. An
accident that would cost me $10k (for the cars damage)
could cost
|
hundreds of thousands for personal injuries and reconstructive facial
|
surgeries....
|
| It is your right to chose to protect yourself with the
seatbelt, but
| should an accident occur, whom is responsible for the
injuries
sustained?
|
| Just a debate man :) Glad to see a fellow NMA
member.
|
| Tyson
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:15:50
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Car Safety
In my 3000GT, I have 5 point harnesses installed (no
standard
seatbelts), and a pair of Corbeau Seats... I plan on a roll
bar someday
in the very near future... I feel this is a very
safe, though
sometimes annoying way to go... 5 points really restrict
your movement,
but, that's a good thing too...
One question
though... What stops a manufacturer from installing a
sturdier / stiffer roll
cage/passenger compartment in a car??? I know
there are side
impact door beams and such, and even side impact air
bags and such, but I
just don't think this is the way to go with all of
this... Wouldn't we
be better off reinforcing the actual passenger
compartment and have
better restraint systems from the manufacturer...
F-1/Champ car drivers hit
the wall at extreme instantaneous G-forces,
and at speeds only dreamt
of on any public highway, and the drivers walk
away... But I see people
not survive seatbelt/airbag equipped crashes
at less than 45
mph... I know there's a difference in weight and
construction, but why
can't some of this filter down??? Or is the
public just too
lazy/price conscientious to care...
- -Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:23:48
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Car Safety
Cost.
Cost.
Federal regulations dont require
it.
Cost.
Cars are only built "well enough" to pass federal
regs.
Cost.
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, cody wrote:
> In my 3000GT,
I have 5 point harnesses installed (no standard
> seatbelts), and a pair
of Corbeau Seats... I plan on a roll bar
> someday in the very near
future... I feel this is a very safe, though
> sometimes
annoying way to go... 5 points really restrict your
> movement,
but, that's a good thing too...
>
> One question though... What
stops a manufacturer from installing a
> sturdier / stiffer roll
cage/passenger compartment in a car??? I know
> there are side
impact door beams and such, and even side impact air
> bags and such, but
I just don't think this is the way to go with all
> of this...
Wouldn't we be better off reinforcing the actual passenger
>
compartment and have better restraint systems from the
manufacturer...
> F-1/Champ car drivers hit the wall at extreme
instantaneous G-forces,
> and at speeds only dreamt of on any public
highway, and the drivers
> walk away... But I see people not
survive seatbelt/airbag equipped
> crashes at less than 45 mph... I
know there's a difference in weight
> and construction, but why can't
some of this filter down??? Or is the
> public just too
lazy/price conscientious to care...
>
> -Cody
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:16:05
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
Cody and anyone else with a 5- or 6-point racing
harness installed in
your car:
You are on a suicide mission if you
have a 5- or 6-point safety harness
in your car without a recommended rollbar
or rollcage (FIA standards,
SCCA, the standard Autopower rollbar,
etc.). It is just dumb, dumb,
dumb. You are anchoring yourself to
the car and/or to the seat. Your
noggin is STILL the tallest part
of the car in a rollover and when
strapped in you hit the nail on the head -
your movement is restricted.
This means you can not lean over to the
side to prevent your head from
being squashed like a grape. A
3-point seat belt allows for this
movement.
You should tell every
passenger you carry that your car is not up to
such standards and if you roll
that their head is capable of being
squished. I would appreciate
someone telling me that if they had
harnesses and no rollbar. That is
one of the big gripes I have with
these kids and their simulated
Fast-and-Furious cars. They put in
seats and harness for AutoX (a GREAT
idea) but don't put in a rollbar
for their head.
On a separate note,
many track groups won't let you run with a harness
when you don't have a
rollbar and since you don't have standard
seatbelts then you would be
SOL - at least that is how I read your "no
standard seatbelts" line
below.
Again, it's *your* head.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: cody
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 18:16
In
my 3000GT, I have 5 point harnesses installed (no standard
seatbelts), and a
pair of Corbeau Seats... I plan on a roll bar someday
in the very
near future... I feel this is a very safe, though
sometimes
annoying way to go... 5 points really restrict your movement,
but,
that's a good thing too...
One question though... What stops a
manufacturer from installing a
sturdier / stiffer roll cage/passenger
compartment in a car??? I know
there are side impact door beams
and such, and even side impact air
bags and such, but I just don't think this
is the way to go with all of
this... Wouldn't we be better off
reinforcing the actual passenger
compartment and have better restraint
systems from the manufacturer...
F-1/Champ car drivers hit the wall at
extreme instantaneous G-forces,
and at speeds only dreamt of on any
public highway, and the drivers walk
away... But I see people not
survive seatbelt/airbag equipped crashes
at less than 45 mph... I
know there's a difference in weight and
construction, but why can't some of
this filter down??? Or is the
public just too lazy/price
conscientious to care...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:23:10
-0400
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <
joshua@unconundrum.com>
Subject:
Thanks to all WAS: RE: Team3S: Need some help with a popping
sound and loss
of power
Hi everyone, I wanted to thank everyone for all their
advice. Not being
home made this issue be somewhat more difficult and
having to talk to my
mother who is not mechanically inclined at all
:). Anyway the garage
checked it out and it seems as if when Kelly
Mitsubishi f*&^ed up the
car, they played with the blow off valve
and did not secure it properly
and it fell out. Everything is now fixed
and running fine. Thanks
again.
-----Original
Message-----
From: Tigran Varosyan [mailto:tigran@tigran.com]
Sent:
Monday, September 09, 2002 10:09 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Need some help with a popping sound and loss
of power
For
sure one of your intercooler pipes pooped off. Trace the 3 big hoses
coming
out of the Y-pipe and follow them around. One of them popped
off
somewhere.
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Joshua G. Prince
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:05 PM
To:
Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Need some help with a popping sound and loss of
power
Hey guys, I am somewhat at a loss. I am trying to help my
mother
diagnose the problem. She was driving the vr-4 when she heard a
pop and
a loss of power. She pulled over and the car
stalled. She could turn
the car over but would need to keep giving it
gas or else it would
stall. If she tried putting it in gear, it
would stall. The Y-pipe is
on. Any other ideas?
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:05:40
-0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
I was going to bring
up the same point, that if they want to know how
fast you were going at the
time of impact, there are dozens of ways to
do that. Examining dents,
skid marks etc etc etc. What I do have a
problem with is logging information
in a box. If I get in an accident at
90mph there can be plenty of
reasons to explain the speed. "Yes I
momentarily sped up from 70mph (speed
limit) to 90mph to get around a
car that was producing a repugnant smell
in front of me." What a black
box could log is a constant speed, number
of times 100mph was broken,
number of times when I exceeded .9G in a turn etc
etc. It is my right
to keep that information my own and should I be in
an accident I don't
want my own car, the thing I paid for and love to testify
against me :)
A "seed at impact" sensor in the airbag does not bother
me too much, a
"black box" logging my every move does.
Tyson
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Furman, Russell
Sent: Tuesday, September
10, 2002 1:10 PM
To: 'Mark Frouhar'
Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
Ok this is where
some more of my knowledge comes in. My father is a
certified accident
reconstruction instructor (he also does accident
reconstruction along
with a friend on all fatalities)
The police use formulas that take in to
account vehicle weight, contact
patch area (tire width), road conditions, and
a couple other variables I
cant remember. Using all this
information they are able to calculate
within +/- 3MPH the vehicles actual
speed at time of initial
impact/incident and
extrapolate from there speed
for all other impacts/incidents.
Prime example a wethersfield officer was
responding code 3 (lights +
siren) to a shots fired call, the officers car
slide out of control
coming around a corner hit a curb and flipped onto
its roof, then
sliding approximately 15ft before hitting a tree and coming to
rest.
The town suspended the officer with out pay, pending
an
investigation.....
My father and his partner we able to determine
that this officer was
traveling at most 46 mph (due to lateral yaw skid
marks) before he hit
the curb, the car was obviously a total loss but
the officer was not
driving recklessly (as the town wanted to
believe).
So a black box makes it easier to determine speed but the
technology is
there to find out that info anyway.
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Mark Frouhar [SMTP:mfrouhar@bear.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:51 PM
> Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big brother
>
> Can't you get the inverse
derivative or something and determine speed
> at time of impact from that
information?
>
> Where is this information stored? Can it be
disabled?
>
> thanks
>
> -Mark
Frouhar
> 95' VR4
> The 2700lb
85 TA
>
http://www.geocities.com/Legoland0***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:17:51
-0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
You have shifted to a Frame Vs Uni-body chat now :)
Bottom line, its the
contraction of the car. Race cars can afford to spend
$250,000 on a car
to have it made of titanium so that its light and
safe. Normal cars are
made of steel and to have a roll cage in a car would
take away
visibility, comfort and interior room from the car as it
would add
another 100-200lbs. You don't want any of that in your car do
you?
Realistically, for highway speeds the safety systems we have are
very
good.
What kills people on the freeways are those who drive
monster trucks
(Excursion, Explorer, Navigator, Jeep etc). These cars are not
any safer
for their occupants, matter of fact you are 3-4 times more
likely to
have in accident in an SUV than a car. The pay people die is most
of the
time when a heavier/higher car hits a lower car too high for the
lower
car's safety equipment to work properly. Imagine a 3 ton SUV
hitting
your A-Pillar at 40mph, do you think it could take it? Imagine
same 3
ton mass hitting you on the bumper or even the door, you will get
hit,
but not killed.
I have some pictures of a Semi Vs 3000GT
accident, head on at 60mph.
Even though the 3000GT looks trashed, the driver
and passenger walked
away, driver with a broke arm. The reason was
because the Semi had a
strong low bumper so as to hit the 3000GT low and the
semi was too heavy
to 'hop' over the 3000GT.
Race cars are on tracks
designed to be good in accidents -- padded
walls, grass and the fact that
there are no monster trucks on the track
are the reason people walk
away from those things.
Tyson
- -----Original
Message-----
From: cody
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:16 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: Car Safety
In my 3000GT, I have 5 point harnesses installed (no
standard
seatbelts), and a pair of Corbeau Seats... I plan on a roll
bar someday
in the very near future... I feel this is a very
safe, though
sometimes annoying way to go... 5 points really restrict
your movement,
but, that's a good thing too...
One question though...
What stops a manufacturer from installing a
sturdier / stiffer roll
cage/passenger compartment in a car??? I know
there are side
impact door beams and such, and even side impact air
bags and such, but I
just don't think this is the way to go with all of
this... Wouldn't we
be better off reinforcing the actual passenger
compartment and have
better restraint systems from the manufacturer...
F-1/Champ car drivers hit
the wall at extreme instantaneous G-forces,
and at speeds only dreamt
of on any public highway, and the drivers walk
away... But I see people
not survive seatbelt/airbag equipped crashes
at less than 45
mph... I know there's a difference in weight and
construction, but why
can't some of this filter down??? Or is the
public just too
lazy/price conscientious to care...
- -Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:55:39
EDT
From:
GoblinyTwin@aol.comSubject: Team3S:
Need new turbos !!!!!
I want to put bigger turbos in my '94 TT.
What options do I have and
where
can I get the best deal.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:23:30
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
Dude.
Here..take two of
these..(pills).
Any good bar, beats no bar.
Any good harness with
any good bar, beats OEM belts and no bar.
BAD upgrades are 4pt harnesses,
and style bars.
Keep it in perspective Darren...he could do
better, yes, but he hasnt
done bad.
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Darren
Schilberg wrote:
> Cody and anyone else with a 5- or 6-point racing
harness installed in
> your car:
>
> You are on a suicide
mission if you have a 5- or 6-point safety
> harness in your car without
a recommended rollbar or rollcage (FIA
> standards, SCCA, the standard
Autopower rollbar, etc.). It is just
> dumb, dumb, dumb. You
are anchoring yourself to the car and/or to the
> seat. Your
noggin is STILL the tallest part of the car in a rollover
> and when
strapped in you hit the nail on the head - your movement is
> restricted.
This means you can not lean over to the side to prevent
> your head from
being squashed like a grape. A 3-point seat belt
> allows for this
movement.
>
> You should tell every passenger you carry that your
car is not up to
> such standards and if you roll that their head is
capable of being
> squished. I would appreciate someone telling me
that if they had
> harnesses and no rollbar. That is one of the big
gripes I have with
> these kids and their simulated Fast-and-Furious
cars. They put in
> seats and harness for AutoX (a GREAT idea) but
don't put in a rollbar
> for their head.
>
> On a separate
note, many track groups won't let you run with a harness
> when you
don't have a rollbar and since you don't have standard
> seatbelts then
you would be SOL - at least that is how I read your "no
> standard
seatbelts" line below.
>
> Again, it's *your* head.
>
> --Flash!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:33:07
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
Geoff ... You said it yourself - "Any good bar beats
no bar. Any good
harness with any good bar beats OEM belts and no
bar."
However, Cody has NO bar as far as I can tell. He says, "I
plan on a
roll bar someday" which to me means he has none right now. I
can't
remember if his car is driven on the street yet or still getting
fixed
in the garage but harness and no bar is not a wise choice.
Did I
miss something? Cody has no bar. Geoff says ANY bar (except
style
bars) are better than nothing. But what about NO bar, Geoff?
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002
23:24
Dude.
Here..take two of these..(pills).
Any good bar,
beats no bar.
Any good harness with any good bar, beats OEM belts and no
bar.
BAD upgrades are 4pt harnesses, and style bars.
Keep
it in perspective Darren...he could do better, yes, but he hasnt
done
bad.
On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:41:10
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
So..a harness is a bad thing?
I still dont
think so.
Hes more stable, hes not gonna get thrashed around as much
which leads
to much larger injuries.
Adding a style bar (like ricer
convertibles do) would be down right
dangerous.
Whats your agenda
here?
Cars are pretty damn tough.
Here..enjoy:
http://users3.ev1.net/~mymo/evo7.asfOn
Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:
> Geoff ... You said it
yourself - "Any good bar beats no bar. Any good
> harness with
any good bar beats OEM belts and no bar."
>
> However, Cody has NO
bar as far as I can tell. He says, "I plan on a
> roll bar someday"
which to me means he has none right now. I can't
> remember if his
car is driven on the street yet or still getting fixed
> in the garage
but harness and no bar is not a wise choice.
>
> Did I miss
something? Cody has no bar. Geoff says ANY bar (except
>
style bars) are better than nothing. But what about NO bar,
Geoff?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:05:40
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
A harness without a proper rollbar hoop to protect the
occupant's head
is illegal in my local PCA events (Allegheny Region -
Pittsburgh, PA).
That rule is there for many reasons but I am not one
to yell at for the
ruling. With a harness properly tightened it is very
difficult to duck
as in putting your head to the gearshift or almost
into the passenger's
seat. The hoop of a rollbar or rollcage prevents
such head injuries.
All open cockpit cars are required to have them in
SCCA racing (I know
they are a different breed but I'm showing why I'm
arguing this point)
and our local PCA mandates them as well for open
cockpit cars. In
short, any convertible or targa style car on the track
MUST have a hoop
bar that protects the driver's head when the driver is
wearing a
helmet. This is checked by the driver sitting in race position
with
helmet fastened and a straight edge (yard stick) laying on top of
the
windshield and the top of the rollbar hoop. If the driver is
underneath
this then it is okay. All Boxster and Miata "style" hoop
bars are not
allowed and must have a proper rollbar in the car (occupants
also are
supposed to have arm restraints but this is not the concern with
this
discussion).
Harnesses are a GOOD thing but only when used in
conjunction with a
rollbar or rollcage are they safe. Otherwise they
are frowned upon with
many groups.
You never answered my question
though - do you approve of a layout of a
harness and seat and NO rollbar when
you seemed to contradict that in
the first post?
I've seen that video
before. And I'll say it again - that driver just
used one of his 9
lives. At 4:13 of the film you can see the view from
through the
back of the trunk area. You can see how the roof is bent
to a wide
A-frame like tin foil. The car was lucky to hit on the
outside of the
B-pillar and bend the roof like this. It could also
very easily
have bent inward the same number of inches and that would
have been near
fatal as the driver head was probably (assuming) within
4" of the
inside of the roof and it seems to have caved out maybe 6"-8"
so it could
have caved in 6"-8" or pushed on the driver's head by
2"-4". These are
rough numbers but you see how it was all luck. With a
rollbar in the
even IF the car had landed on the roof and slid for 200
feet the roof
would not have caved in - you don't need me to point you
to the countless
shots of rally cars that ended like this do you? Heck,
YOU were in a
rally car out in the Rim of the World Rally, right?
Don't tell me
those NASA events out in CA allow you to run with full
seats and harnesses
but no rollbar. That would scare the bajeezus out
of me. Here
is my own pic of a Stealth that hit a tire wall on the
passenger side
(car did a 180 off the track) and then flipped up and
over onto the
roof. No harness, no seat, no rollbar. But look at
the
amount the roof was caved in from about a 5-10 mph rollover. Notice
how
the windshield is caved in just in front of where your noggin is
going
to be. This is a little too close for comfort.
www.team3s.com/~dschilberg/cars/events/NelsonLedges/DodgeStealthTT_after_rollover.jpg
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002
00:41
So..a harness is a bad thing?
I still dont think
so.
Hes more stable, hes not gonna get thrashed around as much which
leads
to much larger injuries.
Adding a style bar (like ricer
convertibles do) would be down right
dangerous.
Whats your agenda
here?
Cars are pretty damn tough.
Here..enjoy:
http://users3.ev1.net/~mymo/evo7.asfOn
Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:
> Geoff ... You said it
yourself - "Any good bar beats no bar. Any good
> harness with
any good bar beats OEM belts and no bar."
>
> However, Cody has NO
bar as far as I can tell. He says, "I plan on a
> roll bar someday"
which to me means he has none right now. I can't
> remember if his
car is driven on the street yet or still getting fixed
> in the garage
but harness and no bar is not a wise choice.
>
> Did I miss
something? Cody has no bar. Geoff says ANY bar (except
> style
bars) are better than nothing. But what about NO bar,
Geoff?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:12:34
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
Well, thats a racing group. Dont confuse
racing groups with open-track
rules where the chances of contact are
significantly lower.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:15:42
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
Geoff,
What is a racing group and what is an
open-track group? Tell me. I
need educated.
My local PCA
is a driving event group and you are not even allowed to
think the word
"race" or you are frowned upon. It is a very safe group
so this can't
be the racing group to which you are referring. The PCA
does have races
but you need a license for that and a fully-prepped car
(battery shutoff,
fuel shutoff or check valves, fire extinguisher
systems, etc.).
SCCA
is a racing group but not many of us hold to their rules since our
cars are
practically banned in SCCA except in the "unlimited" class.
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002
01:13
Well, thats a racing group. Dont confuse racing groups with
open-track
rules where the chances of contact are significantly
lower.
On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:
> A harness
without a proper rollbar hoop to protect the occupant's head
> is
illegal in my local PCA events (Allegheny Region - Pittsburgh, PA).
>
That rule is there for many reasons but I am not one to yell at for
> the
ruling. With a harness properly tightened it is very difficult
to
> duck as in putting your head to the gearshift or almost into the
> passenger's seat. The hoop of a rollbar or rollcage prevents such
> head injuries.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:19:18
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
Maybe this needs to move over to the 3S-Racers
list. I don't know what
majority of the readers on Team3S are
interested but I feel it is
important to educate the masses who might assume
that Hollywood is right
and cars with style bars are okay. That is my
agenda.
- - And seeing a car with a race seat and stock seatbelt is
okay. I
cringe a little but not everyone can afford
everything at once.
- - A car with a rollbar and stock belts is fine.
- -
A car with a rollbar and a seat and stock belts is fine (as long
as
the belts fit).
- - A car with a harness and a
rollbar is fine.
- - A car with a harness and no rollbar is just out of the
question.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent:
Wednesday, September 11, 2002 01:13
Well, thats a racing group.
Dont confuse racing groups with open-track
rules where the chances of contact
are significantly lower.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:25:28
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
A racing group races.
An open-track group
is not racing.
On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:
>
Geoff,
>
> What is a racing group and what is an open-track
group? Tell me. I
> need educated.
>
> My local
PCA is a driving event group and you are not even allowed to
> think the
word "race" or you are frowned upon. It is a very safe
group
> so
this can't be the racing group to which you are referring. The PCA
>
does have races but you need a license for that and a
fully-prepped
car
> (battery shutoff, fuel shutoff or check valves,
fire extinguisher
> systems, etc.).
>
> SCCA is a racing
group but not many of us hold to their rules since
our
> cars are
practically banned in SCCA except in the "unlimited" class.
>
>
--Flash!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:26:37
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
> - A car with a harness and no rollbar is just
out of the question.
- ---
Were all glad YOU feel that way.
But in
the end..its just you. Let others do as they like.
:)
I dont
think its so bad for the hobbyist.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:41:10
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
Geoff,
Again, our local PCA does Driving Events
and that is open-track. NASA
out your way does what - open track stuff
like the Thunderhill event?
I'm asking as I've never attended one and don't
know if they let the
fast group do more racing (passing in braking zones and
not requiring a
point-by to initiate a pass, etc.).
I'm glad you enjoy
your point of view also but I'm making observations
based on the latest run
of car safety/Big Brother topics that ran
through here. So many people
are not aware that many groups do not
allow a harness and no bar. I'm
making that point known so people don't
get to an open track event 400 miles
away and get turned down because
they failed to ask the Safety Steward if
their setup was okay.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002
01:25
A racing group races.
An open-track group is not
racing.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002
01:27
> - A car with a harness and no rollbar is just out of the
question.
Were all glad YOU feel that way.
But in the end..its
just you. Let others do as they like.
:)
I dont think its so
bad for the hobbyist.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:45:57
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Car Safety
I gotcha..ok.
Well, each organization can
write their own rules as they see fit.
NASA believes the sport should be
more open for the everyday Joe..thats
all.
On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Darren
Schilberg wrote:
> Geoff,
>
> Again, our local PCA does
Driving Events and that is open-track. NASA
> out your way does what
- open track stuff like the Thunderhill event?
> I'm asking as I've never
attended one and don't know if they let the
> fast group do more racing
(passing in braking zones and not requiring
a
> point-by to initiate a
pass, etc.).
>
> I'm glad you enjoy your point of view also but I'm
making observations
> based on the latest run of car safety/Big Brother
topics that ran
> through here. So many people are not aware that
many groups do not
> allow a harness and no bar. I'm making that
point known so people
don't
> get to an open track event 400 miles away
and get turned down because
> they failed to ask the Safety Steward if
their setup was okay.
>
> --Flash!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:55:12
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Car Safety
And I gotcha. I've not been to one of your NASA
driving events and
you've not been to one of my PCA driving events.
Cody can gladly drive
cross-country to yours and drive; however, if he plans
to run at
Mid-Ohio with the ARPCA then he will not be allowed in and might
not be
refunded his money since it is on the application form about
rollbars.
Just educating the masses. Thanks for clarifying your side
too.
Everyday Joes are just as welcome.
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002
01:46
I gotcha..ok.
Well, each organization can write their own
rules as they see fit.
NASA believes the sport should be more open for
the everyday Joe..thats
all.
On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Darren Schilberg
wrote:
> Again, our local PCA does Driving Events and that is
open-track. NASA
> out your way does what - open track stuff like
the Thunderhill event?
> I'm asking as I've never attended one and don't
know if they let the
> fast group do more racing (passing in braking
zones and not requiring
> a point-by to initiate a pass,
etc.).
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:01:56
EDT
From:
CHICMANETO@aol.comSubject: Team3S: I
Need Some Help
- --part1_12b.1729b66f.2ab03654_boundary
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I had
someone barely tap my 3000's left front turn signal cover, it
broke.
Now
I need a new one can you tell me of any online part company,
(wholesale
preferred) that I can order the part
from.
Thank,
Nick
-
-----Original Message-----
I had someone barely tap my 3000's left front turn
signal cover, it
broke. Now I need a new one can you tell me of any online
part company,
(wholesale preferred) that I can order the part
from.
Thank,
Nick
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:27:52
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
The difference
between the "black box" and the "other ways to find out
that information" is
that the "black box" evidence is essentially
irrefutable. You have a
computer logging and monitoring your speed and
activities beforehandd and at
the exact point of impact. It's easy for
a
jury to believe that kind
of evidence. Accident reconstructionists are
essentially paid witnesses
for profit. For every accident
reconstructionist who testifies at trial
on behalf of a plaintiff that
Speed Racer was going 95 m.p.h. at the point of
impact, the defense will
present an accident reconstructionist who will
testify that plaintiff's
expert is all wet because he or she did not take
into account X, Y and
Z. A Police Officer's testimony is often biased
against the young man
in the sports car and in favor of what the Police
Officer thinks
happened. So without the "black box" evidence, it often
becomes a
pissing match between witnesses, all of whom were hired and
presented
for one reason--the witness supports that person's case.
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Tigran Varosyan
[mailto:tigran@tigran.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:06 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
I was going to
bring up the same point, that if they want to know how
fast you were going at
the time of impact, there are dozens of ways to
do
that. Examining
dents, skid marks etc etc etc. What I do have a problem
with
is logging
information in a box. If I get in an accident at 90mph there
can
be plenty
of reasons to explain the speed. "Yes I momentarily sped up
from
70mph
(speed limit) to 90mph to get around a car that was producing a
repugnant
smell in front of me." What a black box could log is a
constant speed, number
of times 100mph was broken, number of times when
I
exceeded .9G in a turn
etc etc. It is my right to keep that information
my own
and should I be in
an accident I don't want my own car, the thing I paid
for
and love to
testify against me :) A "seed at impact" sensor in the
airbag
does not
bother me too much, a "black box" logging my every move
does.
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Furman, Russell
Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:10 PM
To: 'Mark Frouhar'
Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
Ok this is where
some more of my knowledge comes in. My father is a
certified accident
reconstruction instructor (he also does accident
reconstruction along with a
friend on all fatalities)
The police use formulas that take in to account
vehicle weight, contact
patch area (tire width), road conditions, and a
couple other variables I
cant remember. Using all this information they
are able to calculate
within +/- 3MPH the vehicles actual speed at time of
initial
impact/incident
and extrapolate from there speed for all other
impacts/incidents.
Prime example a wethersfield officer was responding
code 3 (lights +
siren) to a shots fired call, the officers car slide out of
control
coming
around a corner hit a curb and flipped onto its roof, then
sliding
approximately
15ft before hitting a tree and coming to
rest.
The town suspended the officer with out pay, pending
an
investigation.....
My father and his partner we able to determine
that this officer was
traveling at most 46 mph (due to lateral yaw skid
marks) before he hit
the curb, the car was obviously a total loss but the
officer was not
driving
recklessly (as the town wanted to
believe).
So a black box makes it easier to determine speed but the
technology is
there to find out that info anyway.
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Mark Frouhar [SMTP:mfrouhar@bear.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:51 PM
> Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big brother
>
> Can't you get the inverse
derivative or something and determine speed
at
> time of impact from
that information?
>
> Where is this information stored? Can it
be disabled?
>
> thanks
>
> -Mark
Frouhar
> 95' VR4
> The 2700lb
85 TA
>
http://www.geocities.com/Legoland0***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:43:34
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
That was case 5 years ago now any
college physics major could look at
the
calculations and confirm if they
are correct or not ;)
All the information is based on the particular
vehicle (s) involved in
the
incident. i.e. you punch in the tire
size found on the car on the scene
the
software will tell you that they
are not the factory specified size and
adjust contact patch
accordingly.
I was just playing with the software last night using my 93
VR as a test
car
for a roll over........ its really cool
stuff.
Onto tech portion of this reply, a wider tire gives a better grip
in the
dry
however in any other condition actually decreases your
available
traction.
For those of you that didn't know
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Starkey, Jr., Joseph
[SMTP:starkeyje@bipc.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 8:28
AM
> To: Tigran Varosyan;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: WAS Big brother, now accident reconstruction
>
> The difference between the "black box" and the "other ways to find
out
> that information" is that the "black box" evidence is
essentially
> irrefutable. You have a computer logging and
monitoring your speed
and
> activities beforehand and at the exact
point of impact. It's easy for
a
> jury to believe that kind of
evidence. Accident reconstructionists
are
> essentially paid
witnesses for profit. For every accident
> reconstructionist who
testifies at trial on behalf of a plaintiff that
> Speed Racer was going
95 m.p.h. at the point of impact, the defense
will
> present an
accident reconstructionist who will testify that
plaintiff's
> expert
is all wet because he or she did not take into account X, Y and
> Z.
A Police Officer's testimony is often biased against the young man
> in
the sports car and in favor of what the Police Officer thinks
>
happened. So without the "black box" evidence, it often becomes a
>
pissing match between witnesses, all of whom were hired and presented
>
for one reason--the witness supports that person's case.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:18:40
-0400
From: "Starkey, Jr., Joseph" <
starkeyje@bipc.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: accident reconstruction
Yeah, I understand physics, etc.
I've been practicing law now for
several years, and I'll tell you, all that
stuff is voodoo science to a
jury. Give me an accident
reconstructionist, physics major, etc., his
opinions and calculations, and
I'll cross examine him and make him look
like a fool. I agree that the
calculations can be verified, and of
course the software program will spit
out a conclusion, but the validity
of the ultimate opinion or conclusion all
depends on what goes into the
formula or software program--garbage in,
garbage out--and one can ALWAYS
find garbage in a human opinion or software
conclusion by attacking its
basis. Therefore, it becomes just another
opinion. "Black box"
evidence--that's another question. Juries
love that stuff. It's the
DNA of an auto accident! And it's FACT,
not opinion, so it's easy for
juries to believe. :-)
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Furman, Russell
[mailto:RFurman2@MassMutual.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 8:44
AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
That was case 5 years ago now any
college physics major could look at
the calculations and confirm if they are
correct or not ;)
All the information is based on the particular vehicle
(s) involved in
the incident. i.e. you punch in the tire size found on
the car on the
scene
the software will tell you that they are not the
factory specified size
and
adjust contact patch accordingly.
I was
just playing with the software last night using my 93 VR as a test
car for a
roll over........ its really cool stuff.
Onto tech portion of this
reply, a wider tire gives a better grip in the
dry however in any other
condition actually decreases your available
traction.
For those of you
that didn't know
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:27:05
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
And Joe what I am telling you the
same data/calculations USED IN THOSE
BLACK
BOXES, are the same thing I was
playing with only difference is it is
not
vehicle specific. So those BB's
have the same possibility for error
"human
garbage in human garbage
out"
An based on your tone/text you haven't dealt with someone who's
actually
understands what they are doing, not just doing it as "part of
their
job"
The old timer has been doing it for 4 years now and his
friend/partner
on
the fatalities was one the first trained by the state my
father was 3rd
Russ F
CT
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Starkey, Jr., Joseph
[SMTP:starkeyje@bipc.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:19
AM
> To: Furman, Russell;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: accident reconstruction
>
> Yeah, I understand
physics, etc. I've been practicing law now for
> several years, and
I'll tell you, all that stuff is voodoo science to
a
> jury. Give
me an accident reconstructionist, physics major, etc., his
> opinions and
calculations, and I'll cross examine him and make him
look
> like a
fool. I agree that the calculations can be verified, and of
> course
the software program will spit out a conclusion, but the
validity
> of
the ultimate opinion or conclusion all depends on what goes into
the
>
formula or software program--garbage in, garbage out--and one
can
ALWAYS
> find garbage in a human opinion or software conclusion by
attacking
its
> basis. Therefore, it becomes just another
opinion. "Black box"
> evidence--that's another question.
Juries love that stuff. It's the
> DNA of an auto accident!
And it's FACT, not opinion, so it's easy for
> juries to believe.
:-)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#949
***************************************