Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, August 13
2002 Volume 01 : Number
924
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:18:14 +0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: A/F Gauge Followup (long)
> What I think I've learned so
far:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
1) Oxygen sensor temperature has a very
significant
> effect on one's ability to
have any prayer of
> accurately reading A/F
with a 3/4-wire sensor
> when the A/F is not
14.7
Actually I'd say something more along the lines of that
you
learned that a standard O2 sensor is crap for
detecting true A/F ratios and
that you need to use a
wideband O2 to have any prayer at accurately* reading
A/F ratio with an O2 sensor.
> 2) Our post-turbo exhaust
temperatures have a wide
> range, with a significant
portion of that range
> being outside the ideal
operating range (500C-700C)
> of a typical 3/4 wire
oxygen sensor.
That's because the stock-type O2 sensors are meant to be
giving usable readings to the ECU during cruising.
During WOT the
ECU ignores them, so it doesn't care
about how accurate they are at that
point. Once again,
don't use an inaccurate instrument to try to infer
an
accurate number. The fancy Greddy A/F gauge is no better
than the
blinky light ones, only is has more resoltion
in the higher voltage area -
but still relies on an
inaccurate sensor to provide data.
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
(Combination of measuring manifold EGT (not
downpipe -
that's useless), O2 voltage (perferably wideband) and
timing
advance is the best way to tune these cars, IMO).
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:15:21
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
A/F Gauge Followup (long)
Try this
link
Jim Berry
In
many respects, the common zirconia oxygen sensor is a very poor sensor indeed.
Its output is extremely non-linear; when it is
cold its response time is
slow; and its signal voltage varies almost as much with temperature as with
air/fuel ratio. These negative
traits exist for all zirconia sensors; the
so-called wide-band zirconia sensor is only marginally better in its response at
air/fuel
ratios well away from stoichiometric. These sensor characteristics
make the measurement of air/fuel ratio a complex task if accuracy
across
different ratios and exhaust gas temperatures is to be maintained.
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0618/P_3/article.html***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:00:22
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: A/F Gauge Followup (long)
> > What I think I've learned so
far:
> > --------------------------------------------------
>
> 1) Oxygen sensor temperature has a very significant
>
> effect on one's ability to have any prayer
of
> > accurately reading A/F with a
3/4-wire sensor
> > when the A/F is not
14.7
>
> Actually I'd say something more along the lines of that
> you learned that a standard O2 sensor is crap for
> detecting
true A/F ratios and that you need to use a
> wideband O2 to have any
prayer at accurately* reading
> A/F ratio with an O2 sensor.
Yeah,
I agree, but(TM)...
1) Soooooo many people attempt to tune
their cars with an A/F gauge that
uses a typical 3/4 wire sensor. How
many times do you see this? "I just
installed my 550cc injectors and I've got
my S-AFC set so it sits at 0.92V
at WOT. This is ok, right?" Not
many people can afford a full wideband
setup and the DIY low-cost kits are
heavy on the "DIY" parts, so many people
use their stock O2 sensors to
tune. If/when I mess with my fuel system,
I'll probably use a 5-wire
sensor, but I'd also like to have something in
the car all the time to "keep
an eye on things" even when I'm not tuning.
Most WB sensors I've seen don't
have the service life to make them practical
to have in the car all the
time. And even the 5-wire sensors I've seen are
temperature and
pressure dependent, so unless you have corrections for those
conditions, you
don't get a truly accurate A/F either (although it is much
less
inaccurate).
> > 2) Our post-turbo exhaust temperatures have a
wide
> > range, with a significant portion of that
range
> > being outside the ideal operating range
(500C-700C)
> > of a typical 3/4 wire oxygen
sensor.
>
> That's because the stock-type O2 sensors are meant to
be
> giving usable readings to the ECU during cruising.
>
During WOT the ECU ignores them, so it doesn't care
> about how accurate
they are at that point. Once again,
> don't use an inaccurate
instrument to try to infer an
> accurate number. The fancy Greddy A/F
gauge is no better
> than the blinky light ones, only is has more
resoltion
> in the higher voltage area - but still relies on an
>
inaccurate sensor to provide data.
True enough, but it is a step better
than any blinky-light/voltmeter version
I've seen. I think it can be
used to provide reasonably accurate data if
one has the corresponding EGT
data to go with it. That's kind where I'm
headed with this - as much
educational for me as it is trying to do
something useful with the fuel
system.
> (Combination of measuring manifold EGT (not downpipe -
> that's useless), O2 voltage (perferably wideband) and
> timing
advance is the best way to tune these cars, IMO).
Maybe I'll eventually
have one of those fancy computer-thingies eventually,
too :-) But
seriously, the EGT in the manifold is coming probably this
winter for me and
the Wideband O2 is something under consideration
(aftermarket ECU with 100%
closed-loop operation would be excellent). How
are you monitoring
timing advance on your '95? Or is that one of the
PMS
features?
- --Erik
P.S.
> Try this
link
> Jim Berry
Thanks,
Jim - that was just what I needed!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:57:54
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
A/F Gauge Followup (long)
Oops ---- that's page 3 of 3. Try this
instead.
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0618/P_1/article.html
Jim Berry
======================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
To: "Gross, Erik"
<
erik.gross@intel.com>; "Team3S
List (E-mail)" <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Monday, August 12, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: A/F Gauge Followup
(long)
> Try this
link
>
> Jim
Berry
>
>
> In many respects, the common zirconia oxygen
sensor is a very poor sensor indeed. Its output is extremely non-linear; when it
is
> cold its response time is slow; and its signal voltage varies almost
as much with temperature as with air/fuel ratio. These
negative
>
traits exist for all zirconia sensors; the so-called wide-band zirconia sensor
is only marginally better in its response at
air/fuel
> ratios well
away from stoichiometric. These sensor characteristics make the measurement of
air/fuel ratio a complex task if
accuracy
> across different ratios and
exhaust gas temperatures is to be maintained.
>
>
>
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0618/P_3/article.html>
>
>
>
>
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:58:07
-0700
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hesitation problem (Long)
I took my ECU to a TV repair shop
today. I told the technician to replace
all 3 caps. The tech
upgraded two of my caps that were leaking. He did it
for $15.
What a deal!
My 47uF cap was leaking bad and my 100uF cap was starting to
leak. When I
reinstall my ECU with new upgraded caps tomorrow night,
I'm going to cross
my fingers.
Doug
92 Stealth RT
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:09:34
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Team3S: 3S
National Gathering - some pix
Here are some of the pics that I took at
the NG.
Different bits and pieces:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gphilip/NG-bits-n-piecesRoad
racing:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gphilip/NG-GingermanI
have 1600 x 1200 versions of each picture. If anyone wants them, email me
privately.
Philip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:03:34
-0500
From: "Dave and Becky Trent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Back from the 3S National Gathering
Three cheers for all of the
die hard road course drivers! I don't think
anyone regreted the short
trip up to Gingerman from the Gathering. (Thanks
to my over confident
sense of direction, I don't think Chuck regreted the
long trip up to
Gingerman from the gathering). The conditions were perfect,
we had the
whole track to ourselves and I, for one, had so much fun riding
with Philip
and everyone else that I didn't even miss having my own
car....there..OK
thats not entirely true. The last session was particularly
impressive
when they grouped everyone together. Seeing 15+ 3S's hot shoeing
it
around the track was a sight I look forward to seeing
again.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: <
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>
To:
<
team3s@team3s.com>; <
3sracers@speedtoys.com>
Sent:
Monday, August 12, 2002 11:56 AM
Subject: Team3S: Back from the 3S National
Gathering
>
> Hey all,
>
> I am back from the
first ever 3S National Gathering in Elkhart, Indiana.
> IT WAS A BLAST!!!
There were over 220 cars there. Sorry on pity behinds of
> those who did
not come. Autocross, banquet, drag racing, car show, illegal
> street
racing, another banquet with trophy presentations and go-fast
> products
giveaways and, finally, a road course event at Gingerman. I am
> not going
to go in details other than to say that everything was perfectly
>
organized and executed. Great thanks to Jeremy Gleason and all who
helped.
>
> It looks like the next year gathering with be in St.
Louis. Still a
> relatively central location, so that everyone in the US
who wants to come
> could come without having to cross all the time zones
to get there.
>
> A NG video will be coming out soon and it should
be very cool. A pro crew
> was hired to film and put it together. Many
people donated footage that
> they shot with their cameras. I gave the
footage that I took from inside
> the car during the autocross and the
road course, I hope it makes it into
> the video.
>
> Road
racing was my favorite (after the autocross). Chuck Willis drove all
> the
way from Texas (to ride with me and teach me some manners). Dave Trent
>
prepped me very well for Chuck (thanks, Dave). Then I followed Chuck
>
around the track. It was really easy to see what he was doing after he
>
explained everything to me while riding along. The counter-intuitive
thing
> that I picked up was to lift and pause for a second after the end
of
> braking to let the car settle for the turn. That way the car does
not
> bounce while it is turning, which supposedly allows for higher g's
and
> faster turns. I did not burn any brakes or tires with my new
butter-pecan
> smooth driving style. That was a slight disappointment, but
I will get
> over it, and my wallet will thank me too.
>
> I
bought the AEM EMS. I was the second guy to get it. The first was Kim
>
Mehlos from MN3Si. His ECU took a dump and he had to get something to
get
> back home. He got his from GT-Pro and I got mine from Altered
Atmosphere.
> AAM had a great offer for the NG participants which I could
not resist. I
> guess, we will be first guinea pigs without direct race
shop support to
> try them out.
>
> Kim has a 1st gen with 13G
turbos and 440 ccm injectors. AFAIK nobody has
> base maps for those
injectors yet, but GT-Pro has been helping him with
> them. AAM says they
will send me maps for my 550 ccm injectors, which they
> already have. I
received the DIY wide-band O2 parts in the mail already. I
> need to
solder them up and I will have two wide-band sensors to help me
> with
tuning. I also heard that the EMS can use wide-band O2 sensor inputs
> and
run in closed loop at all times, which means that I do not really need
>
those fuel maps (maybe, or maybe not). Anyway, I am all excited and
ready
> to start tinkling with the car's "brain".
>
>
Philip
> '95 Red R/T TT
> Windshield decal:
> Soon-to-be
Powered by the AEM EMS
>
>
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- -------------------------------------------
Introducing
NetZero Long Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
Sign Up
Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com***
Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:11:06
-0700 (PDT)
From: David Margrave <
davidma@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 3S National Gathering - some pix
I like the custom intake plenum
on the one car, and the under-fairing
scoops on the green car. Did the
owner of the green car indicate how well
the fresh air scoops
performed?
On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Philip V. Glazatov
wrote:
> Here are some of the pics that I took at the
NG.
>
> Different bits and pieces:
>
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gphilip/NG-bits-n-pieces>
>
Road racing:
>
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gphilip/NG-Gingerman>
>
I have 1600 x 1200 versions of each picture. If anyone wants them, email
me
> privately.
>
> Philip
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:20:19
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@satx.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Awesome cars!
http://66.25.73.198:880/~cody/Check
out the cars in those links, and reply personally if ya want...
-
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:33:34
-0700
From: Damon Rachell <
damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
3S National Gathering - some pix
The intake consists of stock TT runners
with a modified end tank. The
volume is more than double that of the
stocker. In person, it's really
huge. Plus, there's a massive
throttle body on it.
The green car's front bumper and hood are both Pit
Road M. The car was
just finally put back together so there's no real
way to prove whether
the intakes work or not. FYI, the car's got an
ARC-II, GT368s, GTPro
Front Mount and piping, and 720cc injectors. The
car hauls arse, let me
tell ya.
If you've got any other questions
about either DragPro (fully custom
huge turbo'd car) or the Green car, lemme
know privately at
damonr@mefas.com.
Damon
David
Margrave wrote:
> I like the custom intake plenum on the one car, and
the under-fairing
> scoops on the green car. Did the owner of the
green car indicate how well
> the fresh air scoops performed?
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:47:55
-0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: A/F Gauge Followup (long)
> 1) Soooooo many people
attempt to tune their cars with an A/F gauge that
> uses a typical 3/4
wire sensor. How many times do you see this? "I just
> installed my
550cc injectors and I've got my S-AFC set so it sits at 0.92V
> at
WOT. This is ok, right?" Not many people can afford a full
wideband
> setup and the DIY low-cost kits are heavy on the "DIY" parts,
so many
people
> use their stock O2 sensors to tune. If/when I
mess with my fuel system,
> I'll probably use a 5-wire sensor, but I'd
also like to have something in
> the car all the time to "keep an eye on
things" even when I'm not tuning.
I think that "general" tuning by A/F
ratio is somewhat feasible. Its not a
total shot in the dark, but to
get the car tweaked in just right and extract
maximum power safely A/F is
only one of several variables to watch over.
O2/AF meters are good for
getting a general idea of what's going on but to
tune only by it isn't the
best/safest. O2 voltage will get you in the
ballpark, but not
optimized.
> Maybe I'll eventually have one of those fancy
computer-thingies
eventually,
> too :-) But seriously, the EGT in
the manifold is coming probably this
> winter for me and the Wideband O2
is something under consideration
> (aftermarket ECU with 100% closed-loop
operation would be excellent).
I'm also looking at wideband solutions,
but haven't decided which way to go
yet. The DIY kit is compelling and
I've got the skills to assemble and test
it, so that may be my
choice.
> How are you monitoring timing advance on your '95? Or
is that one of
> the PMS features?
Yes, the PMS has real-time
timing advance display on the handheld unit and
in the logger. Normally
under WOT at 15 psi of boost I'm seeing a ramp from
20-25 degrees of advance
pretty much straight diagonal from 3500-7000 RPM.
I'm also considering the
AEM EMS, but don't want to be one of the first few
guys to try it (I've
already spent enough on my motor!).
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:30:56
EDT
From:
M3000GTSL84@aol.comSubject: Team3S:
Pre-cat/downpipe Q
Hey guys sorry if its a bit long. . .
On 97 and
up DOHC N/As, the stock HP rating is 218 as opposed to 222 because
i think
Mitsu switched to CA emmisions for all cars. First-Why did they do
this?
I live in NJ, so im not really interested in the CA
emmisions-and i want my 5
HP back-the "adjustment" they made was to add a
pre-cat right after the
exhaust manifold. 3SX sells a downpipe for the
non-turbo, but they state it
isnt for CA emmisons cars.
SO i want to
know if i can install that downpipe-and what the side effects
would be-would
it aid in power and gas milage-and would i lose low end
torque? THe car
would have the downpipe-borla exhaust and FIPK by the time im
done-and the
car was just inspected last week so i know that as of right now
everything
is running great. I want to of course keep it emmisons legal
thank you
for the help guys i really appreciate it.
- -mike
97
SL
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:34:08
EDT
From:
M3000GTSL84@aol.comSubject: Team3S:
one more thing guys-
Opps-it appears that 3SX DOES now offer downpipes
for all years-but the
question still remains that if i remove the precat id
get more power right?
- -mike
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:01:36
+0000
From: "Hans Hortin" <
hortin@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Stealth
Hello
Is there anybody that have all the original papers
from a 1991 ES.
Or is it anybody nice man or women who has a 1991 ES and a
scanner.
I am intrestead in first registration paper and a copy from the
first exaust
checkup.
Is it expensive to send a center cap from US to
Sweden in a letter?
I heard that a parcel kost about 74 US /
Euro.
Hans
_________________________________________________________________
Skicka
snabbmeddelanden till dina vänner online med MSN Messenger:
http://messenger.msn.se***
Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:17:13
-0400
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: 3S-Racers: Re: Team3S: 3S National Gathering - some pix
-
--0__=0ABBE687DFAD97198f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBE687DFAD9719
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I have not met the owner
of "the green car" (the 1st gen TT with brake air
scoops). I was sure I would
meet him at the road course but he did not
show. Who was that? The car was a
greet 1s gen TT with Big Reds (and
oversized rotors, I think), air ducts
going to them, and RallyArt sticker
on the
fender.
Philip
David Margrave wrote:
> I like the custom
intake plenum on the one car, and the under-fairing
> scoops on the green
car. Did the owner of the green car indicate how
well
> the fresh
air scoops performed?
>
-
--0__=0ABBE687DFAD97198f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBE687DFAD9719
Content-type:
text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition:
inline
<html><body>
<p><tt>I have not met the
owner of "the green car" (the 1st gen TT with brake
air<br>
</tt><tt>scoops). I was sure I would meet him at
the road course but he did not<br>
</tt><tt>show. Who was
that? The car was a greet 1s gen TT with Big Reds
(and<br>
</tt><tt>oversized rotors, I think), air ducts
going to them, and RallyArt sticker<br>
</tt><tt>on the
fender.<br>
</tt><br>
<tt>Philip<br>
</tt><br>
<br>
<tt>David
Margrave wrote:<br>
</tt><tt>> I like the custom
intake plenum on the one car, and the
under-fairing<br>
</tt><tt>> scoops on the green
car. Did the owner of the green car indicate
how<br>
</tt><tt>well<br>
</tt><tt>>
the fresh air scoops
performed?<br>
</tt><tt>></tt><br>
</body></html>
-
--0__=0ABBE687DFAD97198f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBE687DFAD9719--
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:00:44
-0700
From: P N Sankarshanan <
yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Request procedure to replace
thermostat
Greetings:
I'm looking for a step-by-step procedure for replacing the
thermostat
on a 2nd gen VR4.
Any pointers is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
- -sankar
- --
*******************************************************************************
Picard:
"Why her?"
Worf: "Sir, I believe she was the intended target of the
abduction."
Riker: "Why would they want to take a Federation hostage?
Their fight doesn't
involve us."
Worf: "It does now."
-
--Picard, Worf, and Riker, "The High Ground", Stardate
43
*******************************************************************************
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:02:23
-0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
One man's experience/opinion..
In
my two dozen track outings, I've only encountered a problem when wheels are hot.
My old procedure was to break the lugnuts with full weight on the ground,
then jack and undo, and similar, pre-tighten with zero weight, then torque when
fully on the ground.
After several times doing this and noticing
extereme difficulty in breaking some lugnuts loose in hot weather and/or soon
after a run, I had several galled studs/nuts. I used a smidgeon of anti-sieze,
and changed my procedure. I jack up 50% before any breaking attempts, then break
loose, then jack fully and undo. Put on wheels, pre-torque, down 50%, fully
torque, then unload jack.
I also use less torque than before. Only use
hand force on a 'cross' tire wrench, maybe 50-60 ft-lbs max. I always go around
the pattern at least twice when tightening. Haven't had any problems in a dozen+
outings with this procedure. No stud problems, no rotor problems.
My only
change will be to get one of the 12v lug wrenches to make things easier in hot
weather.
The point is, for longer unattended periods, more torque may be
preferable, but for shorter durations maximum torque is seldom needed or wanted
to seat the wheels and rotors correctly.
Kurt
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg [mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent:
Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:26 AM
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
Who's yelling, Matt. I
just received word from a very good friend of
mine and fantastic Mechanical
Engineer that it does increase the torque
but he gave a number much lower of
around 20%. Sure that study might be
right and anything applied will
increase it (Silly Putty, peanut butter,
concealed chicken fat, etc.) but to
what extent each one increases or
decreases is what is important.
Like
I said, I don't goop it on there but apply just a little and it
stays for
about a year when I apply it again. If it does increase it,
say, 20%
then my torque of 95 ft*lbs would be around 114 ft*lbs and the
recommended
range is anywhere from 87-101 ft*lbs. Maybe I'll drop mine
to 90 ft*lbs
until I can verify the torque of the wrench like you did
(where did you
verify this by the way - I had mine serviced by Sears
somewhere in Texas and
a month later received it back but I didn't think
to have them verify the
torque it was applying).
I just found the answer from Loctite themselves
and I'm not sure what
Luke@TireRack was
talking about when he mentioned "most lubricant tables
recommend a 40-45%
reduction in torque" but it is not scientific as you
said.
http://www.loctite.com/pdf/antiseize.pdf>From
this Product Guide page the compound I have (the silver one) is
rated at 0.18
which is the "torque coefficient or nut factor,
determined
experimentally." "[These factors] are obtained on Grade 8,
1/2" steel
bolts and grade 5 nuts by a test procedure which measures torque
tension
properties. Lubricant was applied to the bolt threads and both
faces of
the washer."
Now I do not coat "both sides of the washer" and
do not liberally coat
the threads as they show in their pictures so I'm
assuming that my
number is quite a bit less than theirs but who knows by how
much. I've
not gooped it up that much because it is expensive, it lasts
a long
time, and it gets my fingers all silver when I handle the lugnuts so
I'd
prefer to keep it neat and clean.
The coefficient of friction of
the silver stuff at 68 F is 0.077 and at
1,400 F it is 0.164. Further
testing on 3/8x16 nuts and bolts in a
Skidmore-Wilhelm apparatus from torque
at 5,000 lbs tension yielded in a
factor of 0.18.
- --Flash!
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSent: Thursday,
August 08, 2002 11:32
Like I said in my original post, don't yell at me -
make
your own decisions about it. After this message, I'm
out of
this topic.
The problem is that lubed threads increase the stretch
of
the fastener (bolt or stud or whatever) since lower
applied torque on lubed
threads increases the pull on
the fastener more than dry threads (the
friction on the
dry threads resists some of the torque). By torquing
lubed threads you are stretching the bolt/stud more,
making it more
likely to break a wheel stud. Whether
antisieze provides enough
lubrication or not to make
this significant, I don't know.
Believe in
what you like - I didn't say it was a fact
that one way is better than
another. I'm just saying
that I personally believe that it isn't a
good idea.
No, I am saying that I would not use antisieze on wheel
lugs and would use the proper torque value, set with a
beam-style torque
wrench. I had my brand-new clicker-
style torque wrench tested against
a beam-type and a
dial-type Snap-On by my machine shop and the clicker was
off 23 ft. pounds too high at the 50 ft-lb. setting. Go
figure. I now use beam torque wrenches since there's
nothing
mechanical to throw off the reading when
properly used.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:02:23
-0400
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
One man's experience/opinion..
In
my two dozen track outings, I've only encountered a problem when wheels are hot.
My old procedure was to break the lugnuts with full weight on the ground,
then jack and undo, and similar, pre-tighten with zero weight, then torque when
fully on the ground.
After several times doing this and noticing
extereme difficulty in breaking some lugnuts loose in hot weather and/or soon
after a run, I had several galled studs/nuts. I used a smidgeon of anti-sieze,
and changed my procedure. I jack up 50% before any breaking attempts, then break
loose, then jack fully and undo. Put on wheels, pre-torque, down 50%, fully
torque, then unload jack.
I also use less torque than before. Only use
hand force on a 'cross' tire wrench, maybe 50-60 ft-lbs max. I always go around
the pattern at least twice when tightening. Haven't had any problems in a dozen+
outings with this procedure. No stud problems, no rotor problems.
My only
change will be to get one of the 12v lug wrenches to make things easier in hot
weather.
The point is, for longer unattended periods, more torque may be
preferable, but for shorter durations maximum torque is seldom needed or wanted
to seat the wheels and rotors correctly.
Kurt
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg [mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent:
Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:26 AM
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
Who's yelling, Matt. I
just received word from a very good friend of
mine and fantastic Mechanical
Engineer that it does increase the torque
but he gave a number much lower of
around 20%. Sure that study might be
right and anything applied will
increase it (Silly Putty, peanut butter,
concealed chicken fat, etc.) but to
what extent each one increases or
decreases is what is important.
Like
I said, I don't goop it on there but apply just a little and it
stays for
about a year when I apply it again. If it does increase it,
say, 20%
then my torque of 95 ft*lbs would be around 114 ft*lbs and the
recommended
range is anywhere from 87-101 ft*lbs. Maybe I'll drop mine
to 90 ft*lbs
until I can verify the torque of the wrench like you did
(where did you
verify this by the way - I had mine serviced by Sears
somewhere in Texas and
a month later received it back but I didn't think
to have them verify the
torque it was applying).
I just found the answer from Loctite themselves
and I'm not sure what
Luke@TireRack was
talking about when he mentioned "most lubricant tables
recommend a 40-45%
reduction in torque" but it is not scientific as you
said.
http://www.loctite.com/pdf/antiseize.pdf>From
this Product Guide page the compound I have (the silver one) is
rated at 0.18
which is the "torque coefficient or nut factor,
determined
experimentally." "[These factors] are obtained on Grade 8,
1/2" steel
bolts and grade 5 nuts by a test procedure which measures torque
tension
properties. Lubricant was applied to the bolt threads and both
faces of
the washer."
Now I do not coat "both sides of the washer" and
do not liberally coat
the threads as they show in their pictures so I'm
assuming that my
number is quite a bit less than theirs but who knows by how
much. I've
not gooped it up that much because it is expensive, it lasts
a long
time, and it gets my fingers all silver when I handle the lugnuts so
I'd
prefer to keep it neat and clean.
The coefficient of friction of
the silver stuff at 68 F is 0.077 and at
1,400 F it is 0.164. Further
testing on 3/8x16 nuts and bolts in a
Skidmore-Wilhelm apparatus from torque
at 5,000 lbs tension yielded in a
factor of 0.18.
- --Flash!
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSent: Thursday,
August 08, 2002 11:32
Like I said in my original post, don't yell at me -
make
your own decisions about it. After this message, I'm
out of
this topic.
The problem is that lubed threads increase the stretch
of
the fastener (bolt or stud or whatever) since lower
applied torque on lubed
threads increases the pull on
the fastener more than dry threads (the
friction on the
dry threads resists some of the torque). By torquing
lubed threads you are stretching the bolt/stud more,
making it more
likely to break a wheel stud. Whether
antisieze provides enough
lubrication or not to make
this significant, I don't know.
Believe in
what you like - I didn't say it was a fact
that one way is better than
another. I'm just saying
that I personally believe that it isn't a
good idea.
No, I am saying that I would not use antisieze on wheel
lugs and would use the proper torque value, set with a
beam-style torque
wrench. I had my brand-new clicker-
style torque wrench tested against
a beam-type and a
dial-type Snap-On by my machine shop and the clicker was
off 23 ft. pounds too high at the 50 ft-lb. setting. Go
figure. I now use beam torque wrenches since there's
nothing
mechanical to throw off the reading when
properly used.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:32:20
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
>> ... after a run, I had
several galled studs/nuts
If I remember the terms and mechanics
correctly, galling is the result of
fretting, or the wear of two surfaces
moving against each other.
How can galling occur on wheel bolts and nuts
if they are making tight and
proper contact with the wheel and hub? I don't
think there is *any* relative
movement between wheel, wheel bolts, wheel
nuts, and hub when these parts are
properly fitted and installed. Am I wrong
on this or missing something?
On a similar note, others complain about
corrosion on the wheel studs and
bolts. What type of corrosion occurs during
a single track event?
Thanks.
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
Kurt.Zobel@ca.com>
To: <
dschilberg@pobox.com>; <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel
studs
One man's experience/opinion..
In my two dozen track
outings, I've only encountered a problem when wheels are
hot.
My old
procedure was to break the lugnuts with full weight on the ground, then
jack
and undo, and similar, pre-tighten with zero weight, then torque when
fully
on the ground.
After several times doing this and noticing extereme
difficulty in breaking
some lugnuts loose in hot weather and/or soon after a
run, I had several
galled studs/nuts. I used a smidgeon of anti-sieze, and
changed my procedure.
I jack up 50% before any breaking attempts, then break
loose, then jack fully
and undo. Put on wheels, pre-torque, down 50%, fully
torque, then unload jack.
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:36:41
-0500
From: "Dave and Becky Trent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
3S-Racers: Re: Team3S: 3S National Gathering - some
pix
Philip,
The car in question was mine. I was the guy who
was riding in your right
seat saying things like "slow down, were still on
the parade lap", and "pull
in, you just got black flagged". My car
wasn't there because I rode up with
Chuck and Diana. The clutch was
slipping badly on my car a couple days
prior to the gathering so I left it at
the hotel Sunday. I put the ducts on
at the same time I installed the
big reds so I can't be sure of how
effective they
are.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT/Frightened instructor mod
- ----- Original
Message -----
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comTo:
3sracers@speedtoys.com ; David Margrave
;
team3S@team3s.comSent: Tuesday,
August 13, 2002 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: 3S-Racers: Re: Team3S: 3S National
Gathering - some pix
I have not met the owner of "the green car" (the
1st gen TT with brake air
scoops). I was sure I would meet him at the road
course but he did not
show. Who was that? The car was a greet 1s gen TT with
Big Reds (and
oversized rotors, I think), air ducts going to them, and
RallyArt sticker
on the fender.
Philip
David Margrave
wrote:
> I like the custom intake plenum on the one car, and the
under-fairing
> scoops on the green car. Did the owner of the green
car indicate how
well
> the fresh air scoops
performed?
>
-
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End of Team3S: 3000GT &
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#924
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