Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Monday, August 12
2002 Volume 01 : Number
923
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:58:59 -0400
From: "Rodriguez, Elpidio
x35617d1" <
x35617@exmail.usma.army.mil>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo
My bro is looking into buying a '93 Stealth TT and he asked
me a few
questions about my car but I wasn't too sure how to answer one of
them. How
do you know when the turbos are going bad or are bad
already?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:30:26
-0700
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo
> My bro is looking into buying a '93 Stealth TT and
he asked me a few
> questions about my car but I wasn't too sure how to
answer one of them.
How
> do you know when the turbos are going bad or
are bad already?
The best way is with an after market boost guage.
If there isn't one
installed on the car already, then you won't be able to
check the boost
levels. If the car has a electronic boost controller,
then they usually
have a built in boost guage.
If the car has an
aftermarket boost guage, then just check the boost
readings. It should
be around 9 psi for a 1st gen. Do not rely on the
stock boost
guage. It is very inaccurate.
You can also check the Y pipe for
excessive oil. You will need a 10mm
wrench or a Phillips (cross tip) #2
screw driver. Take off the 2 IC pipes
that go into the Y pipe and take
a look. There WILL be some oil from the
rear turbo. This is
because the PCV system vents through there. There
should not be a huge
puddle. There should not be any oil coming from the
front turbo.
The hose on the passenger side is from the front turbo and the
one on the
driver's side is from the rear.
I can't think of any other things to
check without a boost guage. I would
be more worried about the
transmission than the turbos though.
Doug
92 Stealth RT
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:59:03
-0700
From: "Steve Anderson" <
andersonsb@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Team3S: 1991 VR-4 for sale in Fresno, CA
Greetings and
salutations!
I have a 1991 VR-4 for sale here in Fresno, CA, and thought
I would post it
to this fine group of folks before advertising to the general
public.
Asking price: $10,000.00
Color: blue
Miles
104,000
Condition: good cosmetically (but not quite perfect, probably a
strong 8 on
a scale of 1 to 10), good mechanically (again, not
perfect). I've owned
approximately 1 year, bought it when it had about
93 K miles. I bought it
from a used car dealer in L.A. They told
me it has a new (used)
transmission, transfer case, and clutch. I saw
the receipt, so they might
have been telling the truth. New tires,
interior good. TOTALLY STOCK as
far as I know. New tires
(Michelin XGT Z4 Radial X).
I'm selling it for financial reasons--my
girlfriend and I decided to buy a
house in San Francisco, and I need the
money for the down payment.
Feel free to contact me with any questions at
559 237-1363, or
andersonsb@earthlink.netSorry
for the long post, and thank you
Steve Anderson
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:52:26
-0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Turbo
Take off the 2 rubber pipes going to the Y-Pipe and check
for oil on the
inside. When turbos go bad (and its almost always the rear
one, driver side
pipe) If the seals are bad, usually the first thing to go
wrong, the hoses
will be wet.
Tyson
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Rodriguez, Elpidio
x35617d1
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 2:59 PM
To:
''Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st'
'
Subject: Team3S: Turbo
My bro is looking into buying a '93
Stealth TT and he asked me a few
questions about my car but I wasn't too sure
how to answer one of them. How
do you know when the turbos are going bad or
are bad already?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:45:14
-0500
From: "John Monnin" <
John.Monnin@3Si.zzn.com>
Subject:
[none]
Dakken:
You have the right replacement capacitors, 100µF @
25V is and upgrade
from a 100µF @ 16V capacitor. The
voltage is the maximum voltage
the capactor rated for. A higher
voltage can be used as long as the
capacitance (in µF) is the same.
I
mave not verified, but the capacitors are supposed to be a better
quality
starting in 1994. I did a survey of over 20 people who
replaced
capacitors in thier ECUs and several people with 91-93 cars
had leaky
capacitors but there were no bad capacitors in 94 or newer
ECUS.
John
Monnin
Original Message below
>Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002
19:00:33 -0700
>From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hesitation problem (Long)
>
>I found something that I
thought was odd when inspecting my ECU.
>
>These are the capacitors
that are supposed to be on my ECU according
>to
>http://www.tmo.com/howto/ecu1g/caps.htm
>
>47µF @
50V
>22µF @ 50V
>100µF @ 25V
>
>I
have:
>
>47µF @ 50V
>22µF @ 50V
>100µF @
16V
>
>Is there supposed to be a difference in the capacitors from
>different years?
>
> Doug
> 92 Stealth RT
TT
3SI STUFF!
http://www.3si.org/pages/catalog.html____________________________________________________________
Get
your own FREE Web and POP E-mail Service in 14 languages at
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***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:28:10
-0700
From: P N Sankarshanan <
yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo
On Sun, Aug 11, 2002, Tigran Varosyan <
tigran@tigran.com> wrote:
> Take
off the 2 rubber pipes going to the Y-Pipe and check for oil on the
>
inside. When turbos go bad (and its almost always the rear one, driver
side
> pipe) If the seals are bad, usually the first thing to go wrong,
the hoses
> will be wet.
If you want to check the rear turbo,
aren't you better off to just remove the
IC pipe coming out of the rear
turbo? It is possible for the 2 rubber pipes
connecting into the Y-pipe
to be dry, but the rear turbo IC pipe to show
traces of oil - unfortunately,
I found this symptom on my VR4 this weekend
when I was changing the spark
plugs...
- -sankar
> Tyson
- --
*******************************************************************************
There
have always been disposable creatures.
-- Guinan, "The
Measure of a Man", stardate
42523.7
*******************************************************************************
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:31:24
-0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <
francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
You can also you use a good cordless
drill with a socket bit, I learned this
one from Oskar and it works pretty
good too.
Francis
'96RT/TT
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
[mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:11
PM
To: David Margrave
Cc:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
>>Second, if you are going
racing, invest in a battery powered impact
wrench. Going scree, scree, scree
is far faster than working with a
ratchet.
>>Rich/slow old
poop
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:32:51
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs
Yeah, but it doesn't make that cool
ratcheting sound like an impact wrench.
Rich
At 10:31 AM 8/12/02
-0500, Morice, Francis wrote:
>You can also you use a good cordless drill
with a socket bit, I learned this
>one from Oskar and it works pretty good
too.
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:56:53
-0400
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Team3S: Back from the 3S National Gathering
Hey all,
I am back
from the first ever 3S National Gathering in Elkhart, Indiana.
IT WAS A
BLAST!!! There were over 220 cars there. Sorry on pity behinds of
those who
did not come. Autocross, banquet, drag racing, car show, illegal
street
racing, another banquet with trophy presentations and go-fast
products
giveaways and, finally, a road course event at Gingerman. I am
not going to
go in details other than to say that everything was perfectly
organized and
executed. Great thanks to Jeremy Gleason and all who helped.
It looks
like the next year gathering with be in St. Louis. Still a
relatively central
location, so that everyone in the US who wants to come
could come without
having to cross all the time zones to get there.
A NG video will be
coming out soon and it should be very cool. A pro crew
was hired to film and
put it together. Many people donated footage that
they shot with their
cameras. I gave the footage that I took from inside
the car during the
autocross and the road course, I hope it makes it into
the video.
Road
racing was my favorite (after the autocross). Chuck Willis drove all
the way
from Texas (to ride with me and teach me some manners). Dave Trent
prepped me
very well for Chuck (thanks, Dave). Then I followed Chuck
around the track.
It was really easy to see what he was doing after he
explained everything to
me while riding along. The counter-intuitive thing
that I picked up was to
lift and pause for a second after the end of
braking to let the car settle
for the turn. That way the car does not
bounce while it is turning, which
supposedly allows for higher g's and
faster turns. I did not burn any brakes
or tires with my new butter-pecan
smooth driving style. That was a slight
disappointment, but I will get
over it, and my wallet will thank me
too.
I bought the AEM EMS. I was the second guy to get it. The first was
Kim
Mehlos from MN3Si. His ECU took a dump and he had to get something to
get
back home. He got his from GT-Pro and I got mine from Altered
Atmosphere.
AAM had a great offer for the NG participants which I could not
resist. I
guess, we will be first guinea pigs without direct race shop
support to
try them out.
Kim has a 1st gen with 13G turbos and 440 ccm
injectors. AFAIK nobody has
base maps for those injectors yet, but GT-Pro has
been helping him with
them. AAM says they will send me maps for my 550 ccm
injectors, which they
already have. I received the DIY wide-band O2 parts in
the mail already. I
need to solder them up and I will have two wide-band
sensors to help me
with tuning. I also heard that the EMS can use wide-band
O2 sensor inputs
and run in closed loop at all times, which means that I do
not really need
those fuel maps (maybe, or maybe not). Anyway, I am all
excited and ready
to start tinkling with the car's
"brain".
Philip
'95 Red R/T TT
Windshield decal:
Soon-to-be
Powered by the AEM EMS
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:12:06
-0400
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: Back from the 3S National Gathering
OOPS! I did not say it
right. The road racing was my favorite with the
autocross being second. I
enjoyed the drag racing too but I wasted four
runs tuning the boost
controller only to later find out that I had my 02
readings at 1.05V. What a
PITA it is to not have the data logs readily
available, or not even available
at all.
Philip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:04:17
-0500
From: "Simons, Chris - BUR" <
csimons@wm.com>
Subject: Team3S: Engine
Cuts Off After Approx 2 Seconds
Hello Everyone,
I'm new to the
list, I just want to say "hi" and I really look forward to
taking part in
discussions on these amazing cars.
This is my most recent
situation; the engine rebuilders have just dropped in
my newly rebuilt
Stealth ES engine and when they try and start it, it runs
for approx 2
seconds then cuts off. These guys have had my car for almost 2
months
and cannot find the problem. I'm trying to do some investigations as
it
seems they no longer care and only work on it when it's convenient
for
them. I'm hoping with your help I can come up with list of things
for them
to check.
If someone knows of any possibilities of why this
is happening could you
please let me know.
Thanks in advanced for your
help.
Chris
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:03:31
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hesitation problem (Long)
Looks like you tried most of the obvious stuff
---- ECU could easily be the
problem. Check around and see if you can get
someone to let you swap.
What type of plug wires ????
Jim
Berry
================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:16 PM
Subject: Team3S: Hesitation problem
(Long)
> I am still having the same problem I had in the
past. I just have not
> posted about it because I was doing a lot of
testing.
>
> Here is what is going on so far:
>
> I am
having a hesitation problem whenever I boost over about 7psi and about
>
3700 rpms. This occures at WOT and there is some backfiring. I can
do 14
> psi up to that point without any problem. After I installed
my WI system, I
> found that the hesitation would begin at about 3000 rpms
when I boosted at
> 17 psi. My O2 readings stay between .91 and .96
until about 500 rpms after
> the hesitation starts. Then it drops as
low at .5 and I have logged up to
> 10 knock. It takes about 3 to 5
seconds to get to 4400 rpms from 3700 once
> the hesitation starts.
I even get hesitation if I boost to just 9 psi.
>
> I have been at
this for months now trying to fix it. I am at the point of
> pulling
my hair out.
>
> The problem existed before I made any mods to the
car. I assumed it was
> spark blow out at the time and just started
modding, expecting the problem
> to be fixed when I installed the new
plugs and wires.
>
> So far I have,
>
> 1.
Replaced the fuel pump.
> 2. Replaced the fuel filter.
>
3. Replaced the fuel pressure regulator.
> 4. Replaced my
spark plugs and gapped them to .032
> 5. Replaced my spark plug
wires.
> 6. Replaced one bad ignition coil with a hair fracture in
it.
> 7. Tested my air temperature sensor, engine temp sensor,
throttle postion
> sensor, crank angle sensor and ISC.
> 8.
Followed every vacuum line to ensure they were properly routed and
>
replaced one that was cracked.
> 9. Traced every wire for my SAFC
and AVCR to ensure they were spliced into
> the right wires and soldered
all splices.
> 10. Ran a 10 guage wire to my fuel pump.
>
11. Replaced fuel injectors with DSM 450s that were cleaned and
tested.
> 12. Inspected my plugs, they are all a light tan.
>
13. Replaced my ignition power transistor.
> 14. Removed and
visually inspected the ECU. No melted caps or funny smells
> from
it.
>
> I just bought a used coil pack assembly. I will be
replacing my entire coil
> pack Tuesday night. I'll be crossing my
fingers if I don't find anything
> else to test until then.
>
> My mods:
>
> Apexi AVC-R, Apexi SAFC, K&N Filter, DN
Performance Downpipe, gutted
> pre-cats, Custom 3" cat back, high flow
cat, Walboro 341 fuel pump, 10 guage
> fuel pump wire, Stillen cross
drilled rotors, 3SX SS braided brake lines,
> DSM 450cc injectors, Direct
Hits ignition system, Thermo Tec exhaust wrap,
> RPS 6 puck street clutch,
Aquatune WI.
>
>
> Doug
> 92 Stealth RT TT
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:55:55
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: A/F Gauge Followup (long)
Since this is a little long, I'll throw
this in...
Why should you care?
-
--------------------------------------------------
1) I found some
interesting things regarding oxygen sensors
operating
temperatures in my car.
2) If you're using the stock oxygen sensors to tune
your car,
there are some things you might be interested
in.
2) Because you're a nice guy/gal and want to help me out
:-)
Recap of previous info:
-
--------------------------------------------------
For those who missed the
previous thread, I recently installed a GReddy A/F
gauge in my '95
VR-4. It comes with its own 4-wire oxygen sensor and I have
that
mounted in the (normally unused) front bung in my Stillen downpipe.
The
sensor is about 24" (pipe-length) from the head and is downstream of
the
front turbo. Further, the gauge reads in "A/F" (8.0 to 16.0), NOT
in volts
(0V-1V). I've installed this gauge in my car to establish
baseline
conditions and behavior before I mess with the fuel system,
turbos,
intercoolers, etc. etc. etc. My car has a K&N, a DSBC
(0.9kg), a Stillen
downpipe, and an "improved" rear pre-cat. The entire
fuel system is stock.
On to the sensor and my playing with it:
-
--------------------------------------------------
I'm having trouble
confirming this, but based on my experimental data, it
seems that the hotter
the sensor gets, the lower the voltage swing the
sensor produces. The
only graph of the oxygen sensor output versus
operating temperature I've seen
is the following, which isn't all that
clear:
http://www.defi-shop.com/product/dg/dg_install.htm#afIt
appears that the sensor goes from 0V-1V (19.3-10.3 A/F) at some
baseline
temperature and then as temperature increases its range gets smaller
(i.e.
0V-0.93V for the same A/F range). Does this mesh with what you've
observed
or read? Anyone have any better data/graphs than the above
website?
Unless I hear otherwise, I'm going to assume that my above
hypothesis about
oxygen sensor readout and operation temperature is
valid. Now to the
interesting part...
Gauge operation in my
car:
- --------------------------------------------------
The GReddy gauge
has 4 "settings" that calibrate it for varying operating
temperatures and
pressures. There are high/low temp/pressure settings for
the
gauge. I tried the low pressure settings for kicks and our
cars
definitely don't qualify as having "low pressure" exhaust :-) Thus
we have
2 options, High-Pressure/High-Temp or High-Pressure/Low-Temp.
With my
sensor mounted in the downpipe, it seems that most of the time
(cruising,
driving around town, sane highway driving) the gauge reads pretty
well in
the high-pressure/low-temp setting. The needle is rock solid in
closed loop
mode (14.7 A/F) and when the injectors are off (16.0 A/F - max
reading).
Most of the time it seems accurate and consistent with WOT
readings. It
usually sits around 12.0-12.5 and occasionally shows 11.0
or a little lower
(numerically) when I initially floor it and then goes back
to 12.0. My
current explanation for the occasional 11.0 readings is
that the sensor has
cooled off and needs to warm up a little.
Two
"interesting conditions" cause (I think) the gauge to distort
its
readings: track-style driving conditions and extended idling.
I think both
are a result of a significant change in the operating
temperature of the
sensor. After idling for extended periods of
time(5-10 min), the needle
will swing wildly when I floor it (all the way to
8.0) and it does this for
a few WOT runs (2nd gear) and then settles down to
a "normal" 12.0. When
running the crap out of the car (WOT to redline
in 3rd, jam brakes, down to
60mph, WOT to redline, repeat several times), the
needle only points to 13.0
at WOT, even though I know the car is running fine
and no differently than
it was a few WOT runs ago. If I set the gauge
to the
high-pressure/high-temp setting, then it reads 12.0-12.5 when I run
the crap
out of the car.
What I think I've learned so far:
-
--------------------------------------------------
1) Oxygen
sensor temperature has a very significant effect
on
one's ability to have any prayer of accurately
reading A/F with a 3/4-wire sensor when the A/F is
not
14.7
2) Our post-turbo exhaust
temperatures have a wide range,
with a significant
portion of that range being outside
the ideal
operating range (500C-700C) of a typical 3/4
wire
oxygen sensor.
3) Since the stock front oxygen sensor for both
banks is
AFTER the turbo (and only about 12" - of
open pipe -
upstream from my aftermarket sensor),
the data I've
collected here probably applies to
readings from the
stock sensor.
4) If
you're going to try to tune your A/F with a 3/4 wire
oxygen sensor, you'd better have an EGT probe in
the
same location as the sensor so you can make sure
you're
in the right temperature range when you
adjust your IDC
based on the A/F ratio indicated by
the gauge.
What I'll do next:
-
--------------------------------------------------
My next course of action
is to install an EGT probe in the downpipe near the
oxygen sensor so I can
see how much the temperature is varying. From
Chris's post, I think I
can expect 200C-250C at idle and up to 600 or so
when under high load.
I know that the operational range for typical oxygen
sensors is 400C-800C
with an optimal range of 500C-700C. In typical GReddy
fashion, they
don't tell you what operating range qualifies for their "High
Temperature"
setting and what range qualifies for the "Low Temperature"
setting, but my
suspicion is that the temps in our downpipes vary enough
that they are mostly
within the LowTemp range of operation, but are
sometimes out of that
range. I think they drop below the LowTemp range when
idling, and they
exceed that range when the engine gets heat-soaked and
you're under full
boost for extended periods of time. I want to verify this
if possible,
and I think temporarily installing my EGT probe in the downpipe
and
correlating that reading to the A/F behavior will allow me to confirm
or
disprove my suspicions.
Stuff to ponder if you're bored:
-
--------------------------------------------------
1) If we get so much
variation in the exhaust temps after
the turbos, what are
the temps like in the manifold,
before the turbos?
Would it be practical to put an
oxygen sensor
there?
2) How often could you expect the manifold temps to
exceed
800C and overheat the sensor? Anybody wanna
provide
me with typical manifold EGTs under varying
conditions?
Chris posted downpipe EGTs last time, but no
one posted
any manifold EGTs.
3) If not in the
manifold, is there a "better" place for an
additional
oxygen sensor?
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
"Engineer? Where would
you EVER get the idea I'm one of THOSE?"
***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#923
***************************************