Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Friday, August 9 2002    Volume 01 : Number 920




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:28:21 -0700
From: "Chris Winkley" <Chris_Winkley@adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aluminum Flywheel Opinions and clutches?

Doug...

Are you sure about that "510 ft/lbs" on the pressure plate? I had a Broward six puck racing disc installed with an ACT 2,800 ft. lbs. pressure plate and, as I recall, this was about 50% over stock. If this is true, it would mean the stock pressure plate is somewhere just under 2,000 ft. lbs. and your new one is roughly a quarter of the stock pressure. Something seems wrong with this, as 500 ft. lbs. would likely fail to hold the disc against the flywheel with stock hp, much less any mods.

BTW...my hybrid setup with the Broward six puck disc, ACT pressure plate, Centerforce throwout bearing, and stock flywheel works GREAT. True, it doesn't slip due to the disc design (no springs), but it engages smoothly and has held up under repeated hard launches. However, I wouldn't recommend it for commuting in heavy traffic.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: dakken [mailto:dougusmagnus@attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 5:11 PM
To: Team3s
Subject: Re: Team3S: Aluminum Flywheel Opinions and clutches?


I just had a RPS 6 puck sprung street clutch rated at 510 ft/lbs installed in my car.  I found that the pedal was easier than stock to press in.  The cluch grabs significantly more than the stock clutch.  It took me a few days to get used to it.  I stalled out quite a few times.  Now that I am used to it, I like it.  I know when I apply power and let out the clutch that the power will go to the wheels and not smoke the clutch.

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:31:37 +0000
From: mjannusch@attbi.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

Like I said in my original post, don't yell at me - make
your own decisions about it.  After this message, I'm
out of this topic.

> I would rather be off a few ft*lbs on torque
> from dry thread to lubricated thread rather
> than snap a wheel stud at a track 15 hours
> away from home.

The problem is that lubed threads increase the stretch
of the fastener (bolt or stud or whatever) since lower
applied torque on lubed threads increases the pull on
the fastener more than dry threads (the friction on the
dry threads resists some of the torque).  By torquing
lubed threads you are stretching the bolt/stud more,
making it more likely to break a wheel stud.  Whether
antisieze provides enough lubrication or not to make
this significant, I don't know.

Believe in what you like - I didn't say it was a fact
that one way is better than another.  I'm just saying
that I personally believe that it isn't a good idea.

> It is interesting data but are you saying you
> would trust your life on a race track when only
> torquing your lugnuts to between 38.0 and 47.5
> ft*lbs?  I'm not.

No, I am saying that I would not use antisieze on wheel
lugs and would use the proper torque value, set with a
beam-style torque wrench.  I had my brand-new clicker-
style torque wrench tested against a beam-type and a
dial-type Snap-On by my machine shop and the clicker was
off 23 ft. pounds too high at the 50 ft-lb. setting.  Go
figure.  I now use beam torque wrenches since there's
nothing mechanical to throw off the reading when
properly used.

Anyway...

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:41:21 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aluminum Flywheel Opinions and clutches?

Hey Chris, I believe the rating he is referring to is the FT/lbs of torque
the clutch is capable of holding at the flywheel...  Of note is that RPS has
out both a Carbon/Carbon twin disc set up and a Carbon single disc set up

The single is rated to 600 ft/lbs of torque and the twin is rated at 1K
ft/lbs (not sure why any one would want to put that much torque through
their driveline but hey if you aren't breaking it I guess you aren't making
enough power)

Russ F
CT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Winkley [SMTP:Chris_Winkley@adp.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:28 AM
> To: dakken; Team3s
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Aluminum Flywheel Opinions and clutches?
>
> Doug...
>
> Are you sure about that "510 ft/lbs" on the pressure plate? I had a
> Broward six puck racing disc installed with an ACT 2,800 ft. lbs. pressure
> plate and, as I recall, this was about 50% over stock. If this is true, it
> would mean the stock pressure plate is somewhere just under 2,000 ft. lbs.
> and your new one is roughly a quarter of the stock pressure. Something
> seems wrong with this, as 500 ft. lbs. would likely fail to hold the disc
> against the flywheel with stock hp, much less any mods.
>
> BTW...my hybrid setup with the Broward six puck disc, ACT pressure plate,
> Centerforce throwout bearing, and stock flywheel works GREAT. True, it
> doesn't slip due to the disc design (no springs), but it engages smoothly
> and has held up under repeated hard launches. However, I wouldn't
> recommend it for commuting in heavy traffic.
>
> Looking forward...Chris

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:44:52 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Aluminum Flywheel Opinions and clutches?

Chris,

The large number you are referring to is the "setting load" of the pressure
plate. This is measured in pounds. Stock AWD plates have a setting load of
about 2000 lbs or so.

The smaller number Doug is using is a rating of the torque handling ability of
the clutch assembly - in foot-pounds. Mitsu does not provide us with a
measurement of this.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:55:21 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

For the folks that respect Carroll Smith (and who doesn't?), he has a book out
on the general topic of fasteners. Amazingly, Carroll wrote a fascinating book
on a rather dry subject. "Torquing" is well covered.

Carroll Smith, 1990, Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts and Fasteners and Plumbing
Handbook: MBI, 223 p.

Since the brakes are close to the wheel studs, I'll mention that Carroll is
also associated with StopTech, the makers of *improved* "F-40" and "F-50"
brake calipers.

http://www.stoptech.com/

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:25:34 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 95' VR-4 Brake install on a 91 SL

> I'm not saying its a problem, but gooping anti-seize on
> studs/bolts that don't really need it might not be the best
> plan in all cases and could actually cause the sorts of
> failures (broken studs) you are trying to prevent.

Just to throw another data point in here:

2000 Eclipse GT (Same brakes as NA 3/S, 17" wheels)
18,000mi, wheels just rotated and properly torqued
No anti-seize
1 track day (road course), about 90 miles
When removing wheels the next day, one of the lugnuts
stuck to the stud and the stud twisted off
and broke. 
Using anti-seize now and it's never been a problem since.


Make of it what you like.  It does make sense that you're overtorquing the
lug nuts if you torque them to dry specs and you have a lubricant on them.
"By how much" is the question of the day. 

The comment (on the thread Matt mentioned) of, "Anti-sieze is not needed on
wheel lugs, due to the fact there never on long anough to sieze in the first
place, if your rotating your tire's like you should." bothers me a little
since I'd imagine this only applies to street cars.  In my experience, even
if you rotate your tires immediately before and after a track event, the lug
nuts can still seize to the studs.

- --Erik
no anti-seize on the new VR-4 yet... rethinking that...

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roger Ludwig <yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: [none]

http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roger Ludwig <yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

I am seriously considering buying these.
I need your thoughts.....
Brembro 305600

http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1

Roger L
F15DOC


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:32:18 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE:

That kit uses a 12.5 inch rotor and 4 piston calipers (used to be Brembo but
now appears to be AP calipers) Is a good upgrade but you are better off
looking for the AP kit with the 13.5 inch rotor and the 6 piston caliper.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-brakeupgrade.htm

use this link about half way down has all the specifications for all the big
brake kits.

Russ F
CT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Ludwig [SMTP:yiotta@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:28 PM
> To: TEAM 3S
> Subject:
>
> http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1
>
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> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:52:39 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

There is/was a guy on the 3SI.org site trying to sell a set of them used
for $1000 --- I posted before on it but nobody seemed interested.
It would be a hell of a buy.

        Jim Berry
================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Ludwig" <yiotta@yahoo.com>
To: "TEAM 3S" <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:28 AM
Subject: Team3S: Brembro Brakes


> I am seriously considering buying these.
> I need your thoughts.....
> Brembro 305600
>
> http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1
>
> Roger L
> F15DOC
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:25:34 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

Who's yelling, Matt.  I just received word from a very good friend of
mine and fantastic Mechanical Engineer that it does increase the torque
but he gave a number much lower of around 20%.  Sure that study might be
right and anything applied will increase it (Silly Putty, peanut butter,
concealed chicken fat, etc.) but to what extent each one increases or
decreases is what is important.

Like I said, I don't goop it on there but apply just a little and it
stays for about a year when I apply it again.  If it does increase it,
say, 20% then my torque of 95 ft*lbs would be around 114 ft*lbs and the
recommended range is anywhere from 87-101 ft*lbs.  Maybe I'll drop mine
to 90 ft*lbs until I can verify the torque of the wrench like you did
(where did you verify this by the way - I had mine serviced by Sears
somewhere in Texas and a month later received it back but I didn't think
to have them verify the torque it was applying).

I just found the answer from Loctite themselves and I'm not sure what
Luke@TireRack was talking about when he mentioned "most lubricant tables
recommend a 40-45% reduction in torque" but it is not scientific as you
said.

http://www.loctite.com/pdf/antiseize.pdf

>From this Product Guide page the compound I have (the silver one) is
rated at 0.18 which is the "torque coefficient or nut factor, determined
experimentally."  "[These factors] are obtained on Grade 8, 1/2" steel
bolts and grade 5 nuts by a test procedure which measures torque tension
properties.  Lubricant was applied to the bolt threads and both faces of
the washer."

Now I do not coat "both sides of the washer" and do not liberally coat
the threads as they show in their pictures so I'm assuming that my
number is quite a bit less than theirs but who knows by how much.  I've
not gooped it up that much because it is expensive, it lasts a long
time, and it gets my fingers all silver when I handle the lugnuts so I'd
prefer to keep it neat and clean.

The coefficient of friction of the silver stuff at 68 F is 0.077 and at
1,400 F it is 0.164.  Further testing on 3/8x16 nuts and bolts in a
Skidmore-Wilhelm apparatus from torque at 5,000 lbs tension yielded in a
factor of 0.18.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: mjannusch@attbi.com
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:32

Like I said in my original post, don't yell at me - make
your own decisions about it.  After this message, I'm
out of this topic.

The problem is that lubed threads increase the stretch
of the fastener (bolt or stud or whatever) since lower
applied torque on lubed threads increases the pull on
the fastener more than dry threads (the friction on the
dry threads resists some of the torque).  By torquing
lubed threads you are stretching the bolt/stud more,
making it more likely to break a wheel stud.  Whether
antisieze provides enough lubrication or not to make
this significant, I don't know.

Believe in what you like - I didn't say it was a fact
that one way is better than another.  I'm just saying
that I personally believe that it isn't a good idea.

No, I am saying that I would not use antisieze on wheel
lugs and would use the proper torque value, set with a
beam-style torque wrench.  I had my brand-new clicker-
style torque wrench tested against a beam-type and a
dial-type Snap-On by my machine shop and the clicker was
off 23 ft. pounds too high at the 50 ft-lb. setting.  Go
figure.  I now use beam torque wrenches since there's
nothing mechanical to throw off the reading when
properly used.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:58:27 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

Well, if their brake setups fit as well as their downpipe, have your hammer
and dremmel tool ready.... I have not looked at what caliper prices are, but
I got nicer rotors than those, Brembos, drilled/vented/slotted for all 4 for
like $350. $2xxx sounds way too high to me....

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Roger Ludwig
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:29 AM
To: TEAM 3S
Subject: Team3S: Brembro Brakes


I am seriously considering buying these.
I need your thoughts.....
Brembro 305600

http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1

Roger L
F15DOC


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:03:43 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

I can personally vouch for the Big Reds, and they are half the price.

You might want to talk to Oskar about Stillen rotors. He has a photo of a broken Stillen rotor that'll scare you.

Rich/slow old poop
Big Reds, SS lines, Carbotech Panther Plus pads, cryogenically treated stock rotors, bilge blower cooling.
>
>I am seriously considering buying these.
>I need your thoughts.....
>Brembro 305600
>
>http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1
>
>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Margrave <davidma@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

regarding anti-sieze in general, when I had to remove the front axles from
my car, the axle nut was on there so tight and was rusted, so that I had
to not only use a monster breaker bar, but also had to slide a monster
piece of pipe over the handle.  I applied anti-sieze when reassembling.  I
have also used it on lug nuts from time to time but was not aware of the
risks of applying more strain to the bolts due to the lowered friction.

i'm concerned about one poster's remarks about huge innacuracies with
clicker torque wrenches.  How can I get my torque wrenches checked out?

Dave



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 12:41:18 -0700
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

This is a very interesting thread. Personally, I put on just a small dab of
anti seize on my wheel studs. It really helps them come off. Without it you
sometimes need a breaker bar and that is when studs break. I have never
heard of a stud with a little coating cause a problem. If anyone else has
heard of problems caused by a little antiseize on a wheel stud I would like
to hear about it.

Andy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs


| For the folks that respect Carroll Smith (and who doesn't?), he has a book
out
| on the general topic of fasteners. Amazingly, Carroll wrote a fascinating
book
| on a rather dry subject. "Torquing" is well covered.
|
| Carroll Smith, 1990, Carroll Smith's Nuts, Bolts and Fasteners and
Plumbing
| Handbook: MBI, 223 p.
|
| Since the brakes are close to the wheel studs, I'll mention that Carroll
is
| also associated with StopTech, the makers of *improved* "F-40" and "F-50"
| brake calipers.
|
| http://www.stoptech.com/
|
| Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
|
|
|
| ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:11:28 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

Having survived a dozen or so driving events, wherein tires get changed four times (streets to race, swap side to side, swap front to rear, then race tires back to streets) on a weekend, let me offer some advice:

First, I apply anti-sieze once a year on the wheel studs. Just enough to "paint" the studs. A little goes a long way, and one app lasts a year. I broke off three wheel studs before I learned this trick.

Second, if you are going racing, invest in a battery powered impact wrench. Going scree, scree, scree is far faster than working with a ratchet.

Third, torque is not critical. Just snug them up with the impact wrench, let the car down, and torque them to 90-95 ft-lb while everything is COLD. If you use cryogenically treated rotors, you won't warp them no matter what you do. I have NEVER warped a cryo rotor, and I've been through three sets of them.

Torque? Snug is good. Overtightening is bad. I don't think exact torque matters much, but I torque my lug nuts because...well, because I have a wrench. No wrench? Use the Armstrong method.I know lots of guys who use Armstrong torque wrenches, and have no problems.

Before every run, go around the car with a ratchet to see if any lug nut has come loose. DO NOT TORQUE ALL THE NUTS AGAIN WHEN THEY ARE HOT. If you find a loose one, snug it up, but leave the rest alone. If you try to torque hot nuts (I remember those guys from my college days), that's when you overtorque them so much that you snap the wheel stud off later, trying to remove the lug nut.

I usually swap front tires side to side on Saturday, and front to rear on Sunday morning. On Saturday, I swap them at lunchtime so everything is nice and cool, and I can tighten the lug nuts safely.

Even if you don't swap tires, check the torque all around on Sunday morning, while everything is cold.

These procedures have worked well for me, and I have not warped a rotor or snapped off a wheel stud in two years.

Rich/slow old poop

>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:23:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Roger Ludwig <yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

Tell me more about these "big Reds".
Roger L
F15DOC

- --- "merritt@cedar-rapids.net"
<merritt@cedar-rapids.net> wrote:
> I can personally vouch for the Big Reds, and they
> are half the price.
>
> You might want to talk to Oskar about Stillen
> rotors. He has a photo of a broken Stillen rotor
> that'll scare you.
>
> Rich/slow old poop
> Big Reds, SS lines, Carbotech Panther Plus pads,
> cryogenically treated stock rotors, bilge blower
> cooling.
> >
> >I am seriously considering buying these.
> >I need your thoughts.....
> >Brembro 305600
> >
>
>http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1
> >
> >
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:28:28 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

I'd suggest you doing an archive search as there is plenty of information in
there.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

willwood,Porsche,Brembo,Bremsa... what else has been on my car yet ??


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Ludwig" <yiotta@yahoo.com>
To: <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>; "TEAM 3S" <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:23 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembro Brakes


> Tell me more about these "big Reds".
> Roger L
> F15DOC
>



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:38:07 -0400
From: "Ben M. Jones" <benjones@protechgp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: car bogs on launch

I have had the same issue and have done pretty much as you have plus
replaced the fuel pump, installed an HKS Super AFR, and turned down the
boost. It only stops if I run less boost than the factory setting but
will still stutter on takeoff if I don't raise the rpms more than
normal. 95 Stealth AWD TT, ATR Exhaust, Magnecor wires, Supra Pump, Red
Line 20w50.

Any suggestions I'd appreciate

Ben.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Justin Sturgeon [mailto:justinstur@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:35 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: car bogs on launch

i think i have most of my problems fixed but i am still having a little
bit
of a problem.  i just replaced my ecu and ignition coil pack.  Plugs
(NGK),
wires, water pump, timiing belt etc are all new.  Like i said, most of
the
previous problems are fixed and the car runs great.  But when i launch
the
car, even for a medium power launch, the car bogs and seems to take
about a
second for the engine to wind up.  when this happens i can hear the
exhaust
kind of sputter.  it doesn't do it if i just pull up to a stop sign and
immediatly launch, but if i sit a light for a moment it will bog.  i
notice
that the oil pressure will drop if the car idles for a few moments and i

know this is somewhat normal.
also, the car does not hesitate when i first start it and drive away. 
again, the oil is not warmed up so the pressure is higher then.  i don't

know if this is related to oil pressure or not, but i have noticed
this pattern.
i have checked the crank angle sensor, there are not ecu codes, and i
also
replaced the fuel filter.  I have a 91 stealth r/t na w/ k&n fipk.
has anyone else had this problem or does anyone have any suggestions.
thanks in advance for the help.
justin sturgeon



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:47:39 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembro Brakes

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C23EEA.8C1549F0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I got em on Ebay. I just looked in my email archives. I got em for $245 +
$35 Shipping from a guy names Donny Lam. This was like almost 2 years ago
now... His email was don_2nv@yahoo.com

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: John Sheehan [mailto:Johns@KYSO.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:20 PM
To: Tigran Varosyan
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembro Brakes


Where did you get the rotors for that price? Thanx, john 93 VR-4

Tigran Varosyan wrote:

> Well, if their brake setups fit as well as their downpipe, have your
hammer
> and dremmel tool ready.... I have not looked at what caliper prices are,
but
> I got nicer rotors than those, Brembos, drilled/vented/slotted for all 4
for
> like $350. $2xxx sounds way too high to me....
>
> Tyson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Roger Ludwig
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:29 AM
> To: TEAM 3S
> Subject: Team3S: Brembro Brakes
>
>
> I am seriously considering buying these.
> I need your thoughts.....
> Brembro 305600
>
> http://www.stillen.com/brakepros_detail.asp?subcat=142&id=12946&page=1
>
> Roger L
> F15DOC
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>




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- ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C23EEA.8C1549F0--


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 15:53:21 -0700
From: John Sheehan <Johns@KYSO.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

Wow, Watch out! I use to work at a refilling station while going to
school. We refurbed tanks turned in and setup new ones with our logo. I
saw many, very many bad or defective with only a few uses! Scary, I
won't have a Barbeque with one anymore. The smaller tank sounds better.
Take a look at what plumbers use, much better approval rating and very
strong and I never saw one of those with a problem. Temp=pressure
buildup is an issue. Be careful! Take care, john

Tigran Varosyan wrote:

> Well, off-road or on if the thing blows and hurts someone there will be
> bacon to fry. I plan to have a waiver written up by my lawyer friend which
> will have to be signed. You can mount the thing anywhere you want, I chose
> to mount mine under the hood. My system will work in the passenger
> compartment or in the trunk just as good as any out there. The company that
> this will be sold under is also an unprofitable LLC so personally nobody can
> touch me. They can claim the company assets which will be consisting of
> tools and equipment costing less than $2000. I do not plan to have anyone
> hurt by this project and am 100% sure that if anything will ever happen it
> will be the fault of the user/installer. I will look into the tanks you were
> talking about, but from what I have seen so far, everyone uses standard BBQ
> tanks. I got me some tiny 1Gal tanks which last about 3 tanks of gas. I
> think that due to smaller size they will be much stronger than the bigger
> ones (like an egg).
>
> Tyson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:43 AM
> To: Tigran Varosyan
> Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
>
> I applaude your desire to build a well tested system --- however --- you're
> leaving yourself open to legal action if you recommend the placement of
> the tank in the engine compartment. The tanks are NOT approved for use
> in a motor fuel application --- they are rated by the manufacturer for
> outdoor use at temperatures not to exceed 120º F and a pressure of 240 psi.
> I was told the tanks will probably hold twice that pressure but you'd like
> at
> least a 100% safety margin. ASME tanks are rated for use as a automotive
> fuel tank but are built to much stronger specs.
>
> BTY --- it may be "rating crap" but if somebody drags your ass into a
> courtroom
> because a tank blew the lawyers will have a field day. I don't make this
> stuff up
> I just pass it on. Import Power doesn't recommend a tank and says it's for
> offroad use only --- a wise decision.
>
> The area to look [ for California anyway ] is California Code of
> Regulations,
> Title 13, section 930 --- they have info on the requirements for tanks. I
> haven't
> read it but I did take a quick look.
>
>         Jim Berry
> =======================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> To: "'fastmax'" <fastmax@cox.net>
> Cc: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:54 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
>
>
>>Yes the valve does pop at around 300 (325 on my tank) PSI and engine bay
>>temps get much higher than 150... The system I have on my car has a line
>>
> to
>
>>re-route vented gas to under the car chassis preventing any formation of
>>pockets. I have tried to light the leaking propane from the valve, no
>>
> dice.
>
>>It will not go up. I don't know what this rating crap is about. If the
>>overpressure valve pops off at 300 it makes no sence that the tank would
>>hold any less. I had my tank to near 400 PSI and it held its own... I also
>>know people (roofers) who use propane torches to heat up their tanks when
>>they get cold. I feel that under the hood you get MUCH better performance
>>because you get all the benefits of a bottle warmer without the expense.
>>
> It
>
>>is the safest place for it in my opinion. If I had to be in a car in a
>>propane explosion, I would not want it to be anywhere in the cabin... The
>>firewall and the hood should also protect the people within, diving the
>>force of the blast down and forward. The hose leading up to the intake is
>>much shorter. My system also uses a special port made on to the Y-Pipes
>>
> that
>
>>I manufacture to inject the stuff. Injecting it into existing ports in the
>>plenum is plain stupid in my opinion... etc etc etc.
>>
>>Unlike just about everyone out there I did not go "OOOOHHH PROPANE! New
>>
> cool
>
>>thing! Lets make it and sell it!" (To use an example the guy at
>>Importpoweronline who started to take orders and was selling his system
>>before he even had a working prototype of a like-model retail system. Not
>>
> to
>
>>mention that his valves he uses and whole system is under-rated for the
>>application.) I have been working with the stuff for a long time now,
>>
> since
>
>>before all the buzz on 3si and I want to have a functional system that is
>>better than anything else out there. I have already achieved the latter, I
>>just feel that a bit more testing and some track times are needed before
>>
> it
>
>>goes up for sale.
>>
>>Tyson
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM
>>To: Tigran Varosyan; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>>
>>
>>Not sure what you're using for propane storage but a DOT certified tank is
>>NOT safe in the engine compartment ---- the temps in the engine bay can
>>exceed 150º which results in a tank vapor pressure of up to 300 psi which
>>exceeds the tank safety relief valve settings. In addition the DOT tanks
>>
> are
>
>>rated at 240 psi and California State  requires a tank rated in excess of
>>250 psi. The only commercial tanks that fit those requirements are the
>>
> ASME
>
>>spec tanks which also includes the check valve that closes if the valves
>>
> are
>
>>damaged. The smallest I've found are 25# tanks and are 9" in diameter
>>and 20" long. I have no doubt you could get a custom tank designed but I'd
>>think the cost would be very high.
>>
>>        Jim Berry
>>===================================================
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
>>To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:15 AM
>>Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have made my own propane setup which I planned to market, but am still
>>>testing. I think that my system and the best out there thus far, but I
>>>
> am
>
>>>keeping it under wraps until I am 100% satisfied with it and till I can
>>>
>>get
>>
>>>a copyright to the design. I have been using it for about a month with
>>>awesome results. The system currently on my car is mounted under the
>>>
> hood
>
>>>for many reasons, safety being one of them. One thing I can say is that
>>>
> I
>
>>>did not expect nearly as much of an improvement form it as I have had. I
>>>
>>did
>>
>>>some math and the propane under boost would make up less than 20% of the
>>>total fuel going into the engine. Having as the octane ratings were so
>>>close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference, but reading some of
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply stunned. There is no
>>>
>>more
>>
>>>knock, period! I do not know the science behind it, but it works and
>>>
>>that's
>>
>>>all there is to it.
>>>
>>>Tyson
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:27:16 -0700
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

This discussion is interesting.  I never thought of the stretching the bolt
more concept when using a lubricant.  How about using something different?

An old trick that I used to used to get stripped screws out of aircraft was
to add Ajax cleaning powder to the screw driver.  The extra grit would allow
the screw driver to grab the screw and thus you could use more torque to get
them out.  What if a powder like Ajax was used to add an extra layer between
the wheel stud and the lug nut?  It would increase the torque needed to take
the nut off as the metal heated and may keep it from seizing.

Just my $0.02.

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:40:55 -0400
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <joshua@unconundrum.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

Hey does anyone know if you have a custom tank made, if they can fill it
in the car?  Thanks

 -----Original Message-----
From: John Sheehan [mailto:Johns@KYSO.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:53 PM
To: Tigran Varosyan
Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

Wow, Watch out! I use to work at a refilling station while going to
school. We refurbed tanks turned in and setup new ones with our logo. I
saw many, very many bad or defective with only a few uses! Scary, I
won't have a Barbeque with one anymore. The smaller tank sounds better.
Take a look at what plumbers use, much better approval rating and very
strong and I never saw one of those with a problem. Temp=pressure
buildup is an issue. Be careful! Take care, john

Tigran Varosyan wrote:

> Well, off-road or on if the thing blows and hurts someone there will
be
> bacon to fry. I plan to have a waiver written up by my lawyer friend
which
> will have to be signed. You can mount the thing anywhere you want, I
chose
> to mount mine under the hood. My system will work in the passenger
> compartment or in the trunk just as good as any out there. The company
that
> this will be sold under is also an unprofitable LLC so personally
nobody can
> touch me. They can claim the company assets which will be consisting
of
> tools and equipment costing less than $2000. I do not plan to have
anyone
> hurt by this project and am 100% sure that if anything will ever
happen it
> will be the fault of the user/installer. I will look into the tanks
you were
> talking about, but from what I have seen so far, everyone uses
standard BBQ
> tanks. I got me some tiny 1Gal tanks which last about 3 tanks of gas.
I
> think that due to smaller size they will be much stronger than the
bigger
> ones (like an egg).
>
> Tyson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:43 AM
> To: Tigran Varosyan
> Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
>
> I applaude your desire to build a well tested system --- however ---
you're
> leaving yourself open to legal action if you recommend the placement
of
> the tank in the engine compartment. The tanks are NOT approved for use
> in a motor fuel application --- they are rated by the manufacturer for
> outdoor use at temperatures not to exceed 120º F and a pressure of 240
psi.
> I was told the tanks will probably hold twice that pressure but you'd
like
> at
> least a 100% safety margin. ASME tanks are rated for use as a
automotive
> fuel tank but are built to much stronger specs.
>
> BTY --- it may be "rating crap" but if somebody drags your ass into a
> courtroom
> because a tank blew the lawyers will have a field day. I don't make
this
> stuff up
> I just pass it on. Import Power doesn't recommend a tank and says it's
for
> offroad use only --- a wise decision.
>
> The area to look [ for California anyway ] is California Code of
> Regulations,
> Title 13, section 930 --- they have info on the requirements for
tanks. I
> haven't
> read it but I did take a quick look.
>
>         Jim Berry
> =======================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> To: "'fastmax'" <fastmax@cox.net>
> Cc: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:54 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
>
>
>>Yes the valve does pop at around 300 (325 on my tank) PSI and engine
bay
>>temps get much higher than 150... The system I have on my car has a
line
>>
> to
>
>>re-route vented gas to under the car chassis preventing any formation
of
>>pockets. I have tried to light the leaking propane from the valve, no
>>
> dice.
>
>>It will not go up. I don't know what this rating crap is about. If the
>>overpressure valve pops off at 300 it makes no sence that the tank
would
>>hold any less. I had my tank to near 400 PSI and it held its own... I
also
>>know people (roofers) who use propane torches to heat up their tanks
when
>>they get cold. I feel that under the hood you get MUCH better
performance
>>because you get all the benefits of a bottle warmer without the
expense.
>>
> It
>
>>is the safest place for it in my opinion. If I had to be in a car in a
>>propane explosion, I would not want it to be anywhere in the cabin...
The
>>firewall and the hood should also protect the people within, diving
the
>>force of the blast down and forward. The hose leading up to the intake
is
>>much shorter. My system also uses a special port made on to the
Y-Pipes
>>
> that
>
>>I manufacture to inject the stuff. Injecting it into existing ports in
the
>>plenum is plain stupid in my opinion... etc etc etc.
>>
>>Unlike just about everyone out there I did not go "OOOOHHH PROPANE!
New
>>
> cool
>
>>thing! Lets make it and sell it!" (To use an example the guy at
>>Importpoweronline who started to take orders and was selling his
system
>>before he even had a working prototype of a like-model retail system.
Not
>>
> to
>
>>mention that his valves he uses and whole system is under-rated for
the
>>application.) I have been working with the stuff for a long time now,
>>
> since
>
>>before all the buzz on 3si and I want to have a functional system that
is
>>better than anything else out there. I have already achieved the
latter, I
>>just feel that a bit more testing and some track times are needed
before
>>
> it
>
>>goes up for sale.
>>
>>Tyson
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM
>>To: Tigran Varosyan; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>>
>>
>>Not sure what you're using for propane storage but a DOT certified
tank is
>>NOT safe in the engine compartment ---- the temps in the engine bay
can
>>exceed 150º which results in a tank vapor pressure of up to 300 psi
which
>>exceeds the tank safety relief valve settings. In addition the DOT
tanks
>>
> are
>
>>rated at 240 psi and California State  requires a tank rated in excess
of
>>250 psi. The only commercial tanks that fit those requirements are the
>>
> ASME
>
>>spec tanks which also includes the check valve that closes if the
valves
>>
> are
>
>>damaged. The smallest I've found are 25# tanks and are 9" in diameter
>>and 20" long. I have no doubt you could get a custom tank designed but
I'd
>>think the cost would be very high.
>>
>>        Jim Berry
>>===================================================
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
>>To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:15 AM
>>Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have made my own propane setup which I planned to market, but am
still
>>>testing. I think that my system and the best out there thus far, but
I
>>>
> am
>
>>>keeping it under wraps until I am 100% satisfied with it and till I
can
>>>
>>get
>>
>>>a copyright to the design. I have been using it for about a month
with
>>>awesome results. The system currently on my car is mounted under the
>>>
> hood
>
>>>for many reasons, safety being one of them. One thing I can say is
that
>>>
> I
>
>>>did not expect nearly as much of an improvement form it as I have
had. I
>>>
>>did
>>
>>>some math and the propane under boost would make up less than 20% of
the
>>>total fuel going into the engine. Having as the octane ratings were
so
>>>close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference, but reading some
of
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply stunned. There is
no
>>>
>>more
>>
>>>knock, period! I do not know the science behind it, but it works and
>>>
>>that's
>>
>>>all there is to it.
>>>
>>>Tyson
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:14:19 -0500
From: "Richard Fennell" <realmstl@charter.net>
Subject: Fw: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

I would think the tank should be removable.
Propane is sold by weight.  They weigh the tank when you bring it in and add
propane until correct full weight is achieved.

I wonder how those smaller propane bottles would work.
How long do you think they would last before running out.

Rich
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: "John Sheehan" <Johns@KYSO.com>; <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


> Hey does anyone know if you have a custom tank made, if they can fill it
> in the car?  Thanks
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: John Sheehan [mailto:Johns@KYSO.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:53 PM
> To: Tigran Varosyan
> Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
> Wow, Watch out! I use to work at a refilling station while going to
> school. We refurbed tanks turned in and setup new ones with our logo. I
> saw many, very many bad or defective with only a few uses! Scary, I
> won't have a Barbeque with one anymore. The smaller tank sounds better.
> Take a look at what plumbers use, much better approval rating and very
> strong and I never saw one of those with a problem. Temp=pressure
> buildup is an issue. Be careful! Take care, john
>
> Tigran Varosyan wrote:
>
> > Well, off-road or on if the thing blows and hurts someone there will
> be
> > bacon to fry. I plan to have a waiver written up by my lawyer friend
> which
> > will have to be signed. You can mount the thing anywhere you want, I
> chose
> > to mount mine under the hood. My system will work in the passenger
> > compartment or in the trunk just as good as any out there. The company
> that
> > this will be sold under is also an unprofitable LLC so personally
> nobody can
> > touch me. They can claim the company assets which will be consisting
> of
> > tools and equipment costing less than $2000. I do not plan to have
> anyone
> > hurt by this project and am 100% sure that if anything will ever
> happen it
> > will be the fault of the user/installer. I will look into the tanks
> you were
> > talking about, but from what I have seen so far, everyone uses
> standard BBQ
> > tanks. I got me some tiny 1Gal tanks which last about 3 tanks of gas.
> I
> > think that due to smaller size they will be much stronger than the
> bigger
> > ones (like an egg).
> >
> > Tyson
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:43 AM
> > To: Tigran Varosyan
> > Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >
> >
> > I applaude your desire to build a well tested system --- however ---
> you're
> > leaving yourself open to legal action if you recommend the placement
> of
> > the tank in the engine compartment. The tanks are NOT approved for use
> > in a motor fuel application --- they are rated by the manufacturer for
> > outdoor use at temperatures not to exceed 120º F and a pressure of 240
> psi.
> > I was told the tanks will probably hold twice that pressure but you'd
> like
> > at
> > least a 100% safety margin. ASME tanks are rated for use as a
> automotive
> > fuel tank but are built to much stronger specs.
> >
> > BTY --- it may be "rating crap" but if somebody drags your ass into a
> > courtroom
> > because a tank blew the lawyers will have a field day. I don't make
> this
> > stuff up
> > I just pass it on. Import Power doesn't recommend a tank and says it's
> for
> > offroad use only --- a wise decision.
> >
> > The area to look [ for California anyway ] is California Code of
> > Regulations,
> > Title 13, section 930 --- they have info on the requirements for
> tanks. I
> > haven't
> > read it but I did take a quick look.
> >
> >         Jim Berry
> > =======================================================
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> > To: "'fastmax'" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > Cc: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:54 AM
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >
> >
> >
> >>Yes the valve does pop at around 300 (325 on my tank) PSI and engine
> bay
> >>temps get much higher than 150... The system I have on my car has a
> line
> >>
> > to
> >
> >>re-route vented gas to under the car chassis preventing any formation
> of
> >>pockets. I have tried to light the leaking propane from the valve, no
> >>
> > dice.
> >
> >>It will not go up. I don't know what this rating crap is about. If the
> >>overpressure valve pops off at 300 it makes no sence that the tank
> would
> >>hold any less. I had my tank to near 400 PSI and it held its own... I
> also
> >>know people (roofers) who use propane torches to heat up their tanks
> when
> >>they get cold. I feel that under the hood you get MUCH better
> performance
> >>because you get all the benefits of a bottle warmer without the
> expense.
> >>
> > It
> >
> >>is the safest place for it in my opinion. If I had to be in a car in a
> >>propane explosion, I would not want it to be anywhere in the cabin...
> The
> >>firewall and the hood should also protect the people within, diving
> the
> >>force of the blast down and forward. The hose leading up to the intake
> is
> >>much shorter. My system also uses a special port made on to the
> Y-Pipes
> >>
> > that
> >
> >>I manufacture to inject the stuff. Injecting it into existing ports in
> the
> >>plenum is plain stupid in my opinion... etc etc etc.
> >>
> >>Unlike just about everyone out there I did not go "OOOOHHH PROPANE!
> New
> >>
> > cool
> >
> >>thing! Lets make it and sell it!" (To use an example the guy at
> >>Importpoweronline who started to take orders and was selling his
> system
> >>before he even had a working prototype of a like-model retail system.
> Not
> >>
> > to
> >
> >>mention that his valves he uses and whole system is under-rated for
> the
> >>application.) I have been working with the stuff for a long time now,
> >>
> > since
> >
> >>before all the buzz on 3si and I want to have a functional system that
> is
> >>better than anything else out there. I have already achieved the
> latter, I
> >>just feel that a bit more testing and some track times are needed
> before
> >>
> > it
> >
> >>goes up for sale.
> >>
> >>Tyson
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM
> >>To: Tigran Varosyan; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> >>Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >>
> >>
> >>Not sure what you're using for propane storage but a DOT certified
> tank is
> >>NOT safe in the engine compartment ---- the temps in the engine bay
> can
> >>exceed 150º which results in a tank vapor pressure of up to 300 psi
> which
> >>exceeds the tank safety relief valve settings. In addition the DOT
> tanks
> >>
> > are
> >
> >>rated at 240 psi and California State  requires a tank rated in excess
> of
> >>250 psi. The only commercial tanks that fit those requirements are the
> >>
> > ASME
> >
> >>spec tanks which also includes the check valve that closes if the
> valves
> >>
> > are
> >
> >>damaged. The smallest I've found are 25# tanks and are 9" in diameter
> >>and 20" long. I have no doubt you could get a custom tank designed but
> I'd
> >>think the cost would be very high.
> >>
> >>        Jim Berry
> >>===================================================
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> >>To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:15 AM
> >>Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I have made my own propane setup which I planned to market, but am
> still
> >>>testing. I think that my system and the best out there thus far, but
> I
> >>>
> > am
> >
> >>>keeping it under wraps until I am 100% satisfied with it and till I
> can
> >>>
> >>get
> >>
> >>>a copyright to the design. I have been using it for about a month
> with
> >>>awesome results. The system currently on my car is mounted under the
> >>>
> > hood
> >
> >>>for many reasons, safety being one of them. One thing I can say is
> that
> >>>
> > I
> >
> >>>did not expect nearly as much of an improvement form it as I have
> had. I
> >>>
> >>did
> >>
> >>>some math and the propane under boost would make up less than 20% of
> the
> >>>total fuel going into the engine. Having as the octane ratings were
> so
> >>>close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference, but reading some
> of
> >>>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply stunned. There is
> no
> >>>
> >>more
> >>
> >>>knock, period! I do not know the science behind it, but it works and
> >>>
> >>that's
> >>
> >>>all there is to it.
> >>>
> >>>Tyson
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 20:09:41 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

At 04:27 PM 8/8/02 -0700, dakken wrote:
>This discussion is interesting.  I never thought of the stretching the bolt
>more concept when using a lubricant.  How about using something different?

Last time I heard of that little trick was in 19-ought-75 or so. We were installing robot ultrasonic inspection systems on nuclear reactors at the B&W plant in Evansville, Indiana (a little west of there, actually, I forget the name of the town). I was a real-time programmer in those days. (That was a 16-axis manipulator, for those of you who know such stuff, and I programmed the motion control on it.)

One of the macho things to do was to walk under a reactor vessel as it was being taken out to the barge in the Ohio River. They weighed 700 tons, and the overhead crane took it out to the barge at a snail's pace. All the macho dudes would walk under it to prove their manhood (if it fell, they'd be squashed flatter than my Cisco stock). In those days, B&W was producing two or three vessels a year, so there were lots of opps to be brave.

But I digress. Back to the stretched bolts.

Seems that they would bolt down the top of the reactor vessel with huge stainless steel studs and bolts. The studs were like 6 in. dia, and the nuts were maybe 12 in. across. Anyway, they'd tighten up the nut and then -- somehow, I forget exactly how they did it -- they'd STRETCH the stainless steel stud an inch or so, and take another few turns in the nut. Whoa! All this pressure would flatten the metal (unobtanium) gasket from 2 in. thick or so down to nuttin, and seal the vessel. Wild stuff.

*sigh* Nostalgia just isn't what it used to be.

Rich/slow old poop
walked under a little one (400 tons)


l

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:21:21 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

The people who fill tanks are not supposed to fill anything that is not a
standard approved tank. I wanted to cut the handle off of my tank since I
dont need it for anything and they told me that I could not do that. Some of
the people who fill the stuff are retarded though. The place I go to, I have
to hook the thing up and do everything, they just watch because they are
afraid to scratch the car...

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Joshua G. Prince
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:41 PM
To: John Sheehan; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


Hey does anyone know if you have a custom tank made, if they can fill it
in the car?  Thanks

 -----Original Message-----
From: John Sheehan [mailto:Johns@KYSO.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:53 PM
To: Tigran Varosyan
Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

Wow, Watch out! I use to work at a refilling station while going to
school. We refurbed tanks turned in and setup new ones with our logo. I
saw many, very many bad or defective with only a few uses! Scary, I
won't have a Barbeque with one anymore. The smaller tank sounds better.
Take a look at what plumbers use, much better approval rating and very
strong and I never saw one of those with a problem. Temp=pressure
buildup is an issue. Be careful! Take care, john

Tigran Varosyan wrote:

> Well, off-road or on if the thing blows and hurts someone there will
be
> bacon to fry. I plan to have a waiver written up by my lawyer friend
which
> will have to be signed. You can mount the thing anywhere you want, I
chose
> to mount mine under the hood. My system will work in the passenger
> compartment or in the trunk just as good as any out there. The company
that
> this will be sold under is also an unprofitable LLC so personally
nobody can
> touch me. They can claim the company assets which will be consisting
of
> tools and equipment costing less than $2000. I do not plan to have
anyone
> hurt by this project and am 100% sure that if anything will ever
happen it
> will be the fault of the user/installer. I will look into the tanks
you were
> talking about, but from what I have seen so far, everyone uses
standard BBQ
> tanks. I got me some tiny 1Gal tanks which last about 3 tanks of gas.
I
> think that due to smaller size they will be much stronger than the
bigger
> ones (like an egg).
>
> Tyson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:43 AM
> To: Tigran Varosyan
> Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
>
> I applaude your desire to build a well tested system --- however ---
you're
> leaving yourself open to legal action if you recommend the placement
of
> the tank in the engine compartment. The tanks are NOT approved for use
> in a motor fuel application --- they are rated by the manufacturer for
> outdoor use at temperatures not to exceed 120º F and a pressure of 240
psi.
> I was told the tanks will probably hold twice that pressure but you'd
like
> at
> least a 100% safety margin. ASME tanks are rated for use as a
automotive
> fuel tank but are built to much stronger specs.
>
> BTY --- it may be "rating crap" but if somebody drags your ass into a
> courtroom
> because a tank blew the lawyers will have a field day. I don't make
this
> stuff up
> I just pass it on. Import Power doesn't recommend a tank and says it's
for
> offroad use only --- a wise decision.
>
> The area to look [ for California anyway ] is California Code of
> Regulations,
> Title 13, section 930 --- they have info on the requirements for
tanks. I
> haven't
> read it but I did take a quick look.
>
>         Jim Berry
> =======================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> To: "'fastmax'" <fastmax@cox.net>
> Cc: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:54 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
>
>
>>Yes the valve does pop at around 300 (325 on my tank) PSI and engine
bay
>>temps get much higher than 150... The system I have on my car has a
line
>>
> to
>
>>re-route vented gas to under the car chassis preventing any formation
of
>>pockets. I have tried to light the leaking propane from the valve, no
>>
> dice.
>
>>It will not go up. I don't know what this rating crap is about. If the
>>overpressure valve pops off at 300 it makes no sence that the tank
would
>>hold any less. I had my tank to near 400 PSI and it held its own... I
also
>>know people (roofers) who use propane torches to heat up their tanks
when
>>they get cold. I feel that under the hood you get MUCH better
performance
>>because you get all the benefits of a bottle warmer without the
expense.
>>
> It
>
>>is the safest place for it in my opinion. If I had to be in a car in a
>>propane explosion, I would not want it to be anywhere in the cabin...
The
>>firewall and the hood should also protect the people within, diving
the
>>force of the blast down and forward. The hose leading up to the intake
is
>>much shorter. My system also uses a special port made on to the
Y-Pipes
>>
> that
>
>>I manufacture to inject the stuff. Injecting it into existing ports in
the
>>plenum is plain stupid in my opinion... etc etc etc.
>>
>>Unlike just about everyone out there I did not go "OOOOHHH PROPANE!
New
>>
> cool
>
>>thing! Lets make it and sell it!" (To use an example the guy at
>>Importpoweronline who started to take orders and was selling his
system
>>before he even had a working prototype of a like-model retail system.
Not
>>
> to
>
>>mention that his valves he uses and whole system is under-rated for
the
>>application.) I have been working with the stuff for a long time now,
>>
> since
>
>>before all the buzz on 3si and I want to have a functional system that
is
>>better than anything else out there. I have already achieved the
latter, I
>>just feel that a bit more testing and some track times are needed
before
>>
> it
>
>>goes up for sale.
>>
>>Tyson
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM
>>To: Tigran Varosyan; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>>
>>
>>Not sure what you're using for propane storage but a DOT certified
tank is
>>NOT safe in the engine compartment ---- the temps in the engine bay
can
>>exceed 150º which results in a tank vapor pressure of up to 300 psi
which
>>exceeds the tank safety relief valve settings. In addition the DOT
tanks
>>
> are
>
>>rated at 240 psi and California State  requires a tank rated in excess
of
>>250 psi. The only commercial tanks that fit those requirements are the
>>
> ASME
>
>>spec tanks which also includes the check valve that closes if the
valves
>>
> are
>
>>damaged. The smallest I've found are 25# tanks and are 9" in diameter
>>and 20" long. I have no doubt you could get a custom tank designed but
I'd
>>think the cost would be very high.
>>
>>        Jim Berry
>>===================================================
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
>>To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:15 AM
>>Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have made my own propane setup which I planned to market, but am
still
>>>testing. I think that my system and the best out there thus far, but
I
>>>
> am
>
>>>keeping it under wraps until I am 100% satisfied with it and till I
can
>>>
>>get
>>
>>>a copyright to the design. I have been using it for about a month
with
>>>awesome results. The system currently on my car is mounted under the
>>>
> hood
>
>>>for many reasons, safety being one of them. One thing I can say is
that
>>>
> I
>
>>>did not expect nearly as much of an improvement form it as I have
had. I
>>>
>>did
>>
>>>some math and the propane under boost would make up less than 20% of
the
>>>total fuel going into the engine. Having as the octane ratings were
so
>>>close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference, but reading some
of
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply stunned. There is
no
>>>
>>more
>>
>>>knock, period! I do not know the science behind it, but it works and
>>>
>>that's
>>
>>>all there is to it.
>>>
>>>Tyson
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:23:02 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

The small fat bottles are 1/4 of a Gal. The small skinny long ones are a bit
less than that. Problem is that they are too expencive I want to have
propane for daily driving and that is not worth it. Also propane is filled
by volume, you pay by the galon and you do not need to take it out.

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Richard Fennell
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:14 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Fw: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


I would think the tank should be removable.
Propane is sold by weight.  They weigh the tank when you bring it in and add
propane until correct full weight is achieved.

I wonder how those smaller propane bottles would work.
How long do you think they would last before running out.

Rich
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: "John Sheehan" <Johns@KYSO.com>; <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


> Hey does anyone know if you have a custom tank made, if they can fill it
> in the car?  Thanks
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: John Sheehan [mailto:Johns@KYSO.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 6:53 PM
> To: Tigran Varosyan
> Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
>
> Wow, Watch out! I use to work at a refilling station while going to
> school. We refurbed tanks turned in and setup new ones with our logo. I
> saw many, very many bad or defective with only a few uses! Scary, I
> won't have a Barbeque with one anymore. The smaller tank sounds better.
> Take a look at what plumbers use, much better approval rating and very
> strong and I never saw one of those with a problem. Temp=pressure
> buildup is an issue. Be careful! Take care, john
>
> Tigran Varosyan wrote:
>
> > Well, off-road or on if the thing blows and hurts someone there will
> be
> > bacon to fry. I plan to have a waiver written up by my lawyer friend
> which
> > will have to be signed. You can mount the thing anywhere you want, I
> chose
> > to mount mine under the hood. My system will work in the passenger
> > compartment or in the trunk just as good as any out there. The company
> that
> > this will be sold under is also an unprofitable LLC so personally
> nobody can
> > touch me. They can claim the company assets which will be consisting
> of
> > tools and equipment costing less than $2000. I do not plan to have
> anyone
> > hurt by this project and am 100% sure that if anything will ever
> happen it
> > will be the fault of the user/installer. I will look into the tanks
> you were
> > talking about, but from what I have seen so far, everyone uses
> standard BBQ
> > tanks. I got me some tiny 1Gal tanks which last about 3 tanks of gas.
> I
> > think that due to smaller size they will be much stronger than the
> bigger
> > ones (like an egg).
> >
> > Tyson
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:43 AM
> > To: Tigran Varosyan
> > Cc: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >
> >
> > I applaude your desire to build a well tested system --- however ---
> you're
> > leaving yourself open to legal action if you recommend the placement
> of
> > the tank in the engine compartment. The tanks are NOT approved for use
> > in a motor fuel application --- they are rated by the manufacturer for
> > outdoor use at temperatures not to exceed 120º F and a pressure of 240
> psi.
> > I was told the tanks will probably hold twice that pressure but you'd
> like
> > at
> > least a 100% safety margin. ASME tanks are rated for use as a
> automotive
> > fuel tank but are built to much stronger specs.
> >
> > BTY --- it may be "rating crap" but if somebody drags your ass into a
> > courtroom
> > because a tank blew the lawyers will have a field day. I don't make
> this
> > stuff up
> > I just pass it on. Import Power doesn't recommend a tank and says it's
> for
> > offroad use only --- a wise decision.
> >
> > The area to look [ for California anyway ] is California Code of
> > Regulations,
> > Title 13, section 930 --- they have info on the requirements for
> tanks. I
> > haven't
> > read it but I did take a quick look.
> >
> >         Jim Berry
> > =======================================================
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> > To: "'fastmax'" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > Cc: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:54 AM
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >
> >
> >
> >>Yes the valve does pop at around 300 (325 on my tank) PSI and engine
> bay
> >>temps get much higher than 150... The system I have on my car has a
> line
> >>
> > to
> >
> >>re-route vented gas to under the car chassis preventing any formation
> of
> >>pockets. I have tried to light the leaking propane from the valve, no
> >>
> > dice.
> >
> >>It will not go up. I don't know what this rating crap is about. If the
> >>overpressure valve pops off at 300 it makes no sence that the tank
> would
> >>hold any less. I had my tank to near 400 PSI and it held its own... I
> also
> >>know people (roofers) who use propane torches to heat up their tanks
> when
> >>they get cold. I feel that under the hood you get MUCH better
> performance
> >>because you get all the benefits of a bottle warmer without the
> expense.
> >>
> > It
> >
> >>is the safest place for it in my opinion. If I had to be in a car in a
> >>propane explosion, I would not want it to be anywhere in the cabin...
> The
> >>firewall and the hood should also protect the people within, diving
> the
> >>force of the blast down and forward. The hose leading up to the intake
> is
> >>much shorter. My system also uses a special port made on to the
> Y-Pipes
> >>
> > that
> >
> >>I manufacture to inject the stuff. Injecting it into existing ports in
> the
> >>plenum is plain stupid in my opinion... etc etc etc.
> >>
> >>Unlike just about everyone out there I did not go "OOOOHHH PROPANE!
> New
> >>
> > cool
> >
> >>thing! Lets make it and sell it!" (To use an example the guy at
> >>Importpoweronline who started to take orders and was selling his
> system
> >>before he even had a working prototype of a like-model retail system.
> Not
> >>
> > to
> >
> >>mention that his valves he uses and whole system is under-rated for
> the
> >>application.) I have been working with the stuff for a long time now,
> >>
> > since
> >
> >>before all the buzz on 3si and I want to have a functional system that
> is
> >>better than anything else out there. I have already achieved the
> latter, I
> >>just feel that a bit more testing and some track times are needed
> before
> >>
> > it
> >
> >>goes up for sale.
> >>
> >>Tyson
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: fastmax [mailto:fastmax@cox.net]
> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM
> >>To: Tigran Varosyan; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> >>Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >>
> >>
> >>Not sure what you're using for propane storage but a DOT certified
> tank is
> >>NOT safe in the engine compartment ---- the temps in the engine bay
> can
> >>exceed 150º which results in a tank vapor pressure of up to 300 psi
> which
> >>exceeds the tank safety relief valve settings. In addition the DOT
> tanks
> >>
> > are
> >
> >>rated at 240 psi and California State  requires a tank rated in excess
> of
> >>250 psi. The only commercial tanks that fit those requirements are the
> >>
> > ASME
> >
> >>spec tanks which also includes the check valve that closes if the
> valves
> >>
> > are
> >
> >>damaged. The smallest I've found are 25# tanks and are 9" in diameter
> >>and 20" long. I have no doubt you could get a custom tank designed but
> I'd
> >>think the cost would be very high.
> >>
> >>        Jim Berry
> >>===================================================
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
> >>To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:15 AM
> >>Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I have made my own propane setup which I planned to market, but am
> still
> >>>testing. I think that my system and the best out there thus far, but
> I
> >>>
> > am
> >
> >>>keeping it under wraps until I am 100% satisfied with it and till I
> can
> >>>
> >>get
> >>
> >>>a copyright to the design. I have been using it for about a month
> with
> >>>awesome results. The system currently on my car is mounted under the
> >>>
> > hood
> >
> >>>for many reasons, safety being one of them. One thing I can say is
> that
> >>>
> > I
> >
> >>>did not expect nearly as much of an improvement form it as I have
> had. I
> >>>
> >>did
> >>
> >>>some math and the propane under boost would make up less than 20% of
> the
> >>>total fuel going into the engine. Having as the octane ratings were
> so
> >>>close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference, but reading some
> of
> >>>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply stunned. There is
> no
> >>>
> >>more
> >>
> >>>knock, period! I do not know the science behind it, but it works and
> >>>
> >>that's
> >>
> >>>all there is to it.
> >>>
> >>>Tyson
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:59:13 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Antisieze on wheel studs

> i'm concerned about one poster's remarks about huge innacuracies with
> clicker torque wrenches.  How can I get my torque wrenches checked out?

My machine shop checked mine out on some sort of test tool.  There are
calibrators that shops can buy.  Motor shops that rely on accurate torque
should have something like them around.  I didn't watch them do it, but they
did it for me after I broke one of my rod bolts when reassembling my motor
as a courtesy to me to help figure out if it was a bad bolt or if my torque
wrench was off.

http://www.larsonsystems.com/products/twcs_series/stwcs.html
http://www.rstechltd.com/hand_torque_wrench_test.htm

Here's info on a place where you can send your clicker torque wrench and
they'll calibrate it for you (and a list of reasons why clickers lose
calibration):

http://www.sts.sae.org/servicetech/july-2001/tech-tidbits-04.pdf

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 02:23:57 -0400
From: "David Thrower" <repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Team3S: Timing Terminal

Hello Everyone,
 Can anyone tell me exactly where the timing terminal that you ground out to
check ignition timing is? The car is a 92 Stealth R/T TT.
 Thanks in advance,
 David Thrower
92 Stealth R/T TT  Stock everything.



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:22:55 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Timing Terminal

http://www.stealth316.com/2-timingterm.htm

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "David Thrower" <repairerr@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Team3s (E-mail)" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:23 AM
Subject: Team3S: Timing Terminal


Hello Everyone,
 Can anyone tell me exactly where the timing terminal that you ground out to
check ignition timing is? The car is a 92 Stealth R/T TT.
 Thanks in advance,
 David Thrower
92 Stealth R/T TT  Stock everything.



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:17:07 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

I refill at gas stations. I have never heard of it being by the pound. They
always have a meter like a gasoline pump. At least around here they do...

Tyson

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Fennell [mailto:realmstl@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 5:33 AM
To: Tigran Varosyan
Subject: Re: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


Tyson,

How come they weigh it when I go fill my BBQ tank?
Is it just the places I go?

It been a while, but I don't remember any meter on the fill hose.

What kind of place do you refill at?

Thanks,

Rich
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
To: "'Richard Fennell'" <realmstl@charter.net>
Cc: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:23 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


> The small fat bottles are 1/4 of a Gal. The small skinny long ones are a
bit
> less than that. Problem is that they are too expencive I want to have
> propane for daily driving and that is not worth it. Also propane is filled
> by volume, you pay by the galon and you do not need to take it out.
>
> Tyson




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #920
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