Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, August 7
2002 Volume 01 : Number
918
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:40:30 -0400
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
Hey, Joe, good summary of turbo
advantages. Just wanted to add that a
turbo car also gets use of the huge
exhaust gas energy, which is otherwise
wasted in the muffler. A turbo is a
good muffler by itself. Therefore a
non-turbo muffler, generally, has to be
more restrictive in order to quiet
down the noise.
Also, the
intercooler provides an improved efficiency at WOT operation. It
is called
inter-cooler because it cools down the compressed gas before it
gets
compressed again in the cylinder. This multiple-stage compression
makes the
compression process closer to the most efficient adiabatic (I
think it is
called adiabatic) process. More compressed air with less
heat
generation.
Philip
-
---------------------------------------
There are two main differences
between a typical turbo engine and a NA
engine that affect fuel efficiency,
one good, one bad. First the bad, low
compression ratio makes for a
less efficient engine and results in worse
economy. On the other hand,
the turbo does aid in air supply and thus
reduces the pumping losses (even
though it adds some restriction to the
exhaust, but negligible at cruising
speeds). Overall, economy from a
turbo
engine is usually superior to
an NA engine that is capable of similar
performance.
If ultimate fuel
economy was the goal, we'd Ideally want a small
displacement, variable
compression ratio, turbo engine running on a CVT.
The CVT would keep the
engine at its most efficient engine speed
regardless
of vehicle speed and
the compression ratio would be set as high as the
gasoline would allow
without knocking and change as cruising loads
changed.
Spark and fuel
would also be optimized during these operating points to
obtain max brake
specific fuel consumption (bsfc).
Joe G.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:57:23
-0400
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.comSubject:
Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
It is my understanding that our TT cars have
heated O2 sensors, although I
don't really know what this means or what this
feature does for the engine.
I've noticed for some time, that one of the 4
wires that connect to my
front O2 sensor is broken. According to the wiring
diagrams, its the wire
that supplies voltage (heat?) to the sensor. My car
runs OK, but has never
performed at the track as well as other 3S's with
similar mods. My O2
readings seem to be OK, but I normally have to set the
fuel controller a
little on the rich side to obtain optimal readings. And the
front O2 sensor
typically shows a slightly richer mixture than the
rear.
Because of where the wire is broken, it will be a PITA to repair.
Is this
something I should be concerned about? Does this "heater" do anything
for
our cars once the engine has warmed up? Could this possibly be
affecting
the car's performance at the track?
Jeff
W.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:15:04
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Katlysator
Hmmmm, interesting ---- I find it hard to believe they
actually relaxed the
standards. I wonder if they vary within the state. I
know that some counties
have lower standards but I would expect you and I
would be the same since
we live in heavily urbanized areas.
Anybody
with numbers for a car without precats, that's coming up for
me.
Jim
Berry
==================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <
Team3S@Team3S.com>
Cc: "fastmax"
<
fastmax@cox.net>; "Hans Hortin"
<
hortin@hotmail.com>
Sent:
Monday, August 05, 2002 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Katlysator
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "fastmax"
<
fastmax@cox.net>
> >
Hans
> > The following information is from California which normally
has the most
> strict smog tests in the US. They also check Nox but for
some reason I didn't
> include it in the following email.
> >
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Mark FWIW ---- I
dug up my old smog test from 12/27/00.
> > Precats and cat in
place.
> > idle ------------- HC(ppm) ---- max allowed 100,
measured 5
> > 2500 rpm ----- HC(ppm) ---- max allowed 130,
measured 6
> > idle ------------ CO(%) -------
max allowed 1.00, measured 0.00
> > 2500 rpm
---- CO(%) -------- max sllowed 1.00, measured
0.00
> > Jim
Berry
>
------------------------------------------------->
>
>
Hans,
>
> I couldn't find any figures for Florida, as you asked, but
I can share my
> latest numbers. I took a chance with my recent
emissions test, and brought
> the car in COLD, without giving it time to
warm up the cats (Katlysators).
> You *should* run the car on the highway
at over 100kph (60mph) for 15 minutes
> before emissions testing (for
better results)...
>
> Based on Jim Berry's numbers above, it apears
that the geniuses in Washington
> (or Sacramento) have substantially
relaxed the (2500 rpm) emissions standards
> on hydrocarbons & Carbon
Monoxide since December, 2000!?! My numbers from
> late July, '02,
(including Oxygen) for a stock exhaust, '94 Stealth NT are:
>
Idle RPM ----- HC(ppm) --- max allowed 100,
measured 1
> 2500 RPM ----- HC(ppm) --- max allowed 220,
measured 3
> Idle RPM ----- CO( % ) ----- max
allowed 1.00, measured 0
> 2500 RPM ----- CO( % ) ----- max allowed
1.20, measured 0
> Idle RPM ----- O²( % ) -----
**Out of Calibration**, measured 1.1
> 2500 RPM ----- O²( % ) -----
**Out of Calibration**, measured 0.9
>
> Best,
>
Forrest
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:37:58
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
Our stock oxygen sensors are 4-wire,
heated, Zirconia, thimble-type oxygen
sensors. Stamped on each sensor is
"NGK 303H". This type of sensor is heated
to bring it into its operating
temperature range quicker than just the exhaust
could do it. That just means
the A/F is controlled sooner by the ECM and
emissions are improved. Once the
engine is warm the "heated" part of the
sensor has little influence except
perhaps to keep the sensor warm during
prolonged idling.
Track
performance *should* not be affected because our ECM does not use the
oxygen
sensors during heavy load cruising or acceleration. It uses internal
fuel
maps instead.
Oxygen sensor R&R:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-oxygensensor.htmFuel
injection control:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelinjection.htmJeff
Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: <
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
To:
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:57 AM
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor
Question
It is my understanding that our TT cars have heated O2 sensors,
although I
don't really know what this means or what this feature does for
the engine.
I've noticed for some time, that one of the 4 wires that connect
to my
front O2 sensor is broken. According to the wiring diagrams, its the
wire
that supplies voltage (heat?) to the sensor. My car runs OK, but has
never
performed at the track as well as other 3S's with similar mods. My
O2
readings seem to be OK, but I normally have to set the fuel controller
a
little on the rich side to obtain optimal readings. And the front O2
sensor
typically shows a slightly richer mixture than the
rear.
Because of where the wire is broken, it will be a PITA to repair.
Is this
something I should be concerned about? Does this "heater" do anything
for
our cars once the engine has warmed up? Could this possibly be
affecting
the car's performance at the track?
Jeff
W.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:39:29
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
I'm also curious since the book says these
should be replaced at each
tune-up and I just had a 90k completed and didn't
think to ask if this
was covered. There was no breakdown of parts on
the bill (such as spark
plugs, oil, coolant, power steering fluid, etc.) so
it didn't hit me.
Last tune-up was for the 60k. Anyone have a "general"
idea if these
need replaced every 30k, 45k, 60k, 90k, etc?
My front
exhaust manifold will be getting replaced soon and while it is
out would be a
perfect time to get to this item.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.comSent:
Tuesday, August 06, 2002 09:57
It is my understanding that our TT cars
have heated O2 sensors, although
I don't really know what this means or what
this feature does for the
engine. I've noticed for some time, that one of the
4 wires that connect
to my front O2 sensor is broken. According to the wiring
diagrams, its
the wire that supplies voltage (heat?) to the sensor. My car
runs OK,
but has never performed at the track as well as other 3S's with
similar
mods. My O2 readings seem to be OK, but I normally have to set the
fuel
controller a little on the rich side to obtain optimal readings. And
the
front O2 sensor typically shows a slightly richer mixture than the
rear.
Because of where the wire is broken, it will be a PITA to repair.
Is
this something I should be concerned about? Does this "heater"
do
anything for our cars once the engine has warmed up? Could this
possibly
be affecting the car's performance at the
track?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:15:18
-0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Stanton <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
Guys -
This is awesome...
I'm eating this right up (over
lunch =).
Excellent descriptions
of compression & pumping
losses, it really puts a lot into
perspective. And I
never really thought about the whole system vs
NA
cars. Great stuff.
Do we know what the 'most efficient'
running point of
our engines is? Having the 6 speed (in my 1st gen),
I
normally set the cruise at 80-85mph to keep rpm's
around 2400. I'm
testing highway mileage right now.
This seems to be the rpm that is the
lowest AND gets
the lowest manifold pressure readings (mech gage).
But
isn't the best efficiency point related to the
high torque point also?
In perspective of all this, have any thoughts on what
the optimal
boost level is? Theoretically or
otherwise, but I know 10psi on the
highway isn't it,
and I know now that no boost is not the answer
either.
Yes, I am on a
mission....
Thanks!!!!!!!
Ken
- ---
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
wrote:
>
> Hey, Joe, good summary of turbo advantages. Just
>
wanted to add that a
> turbo car also gets use of the huge exhaust
gas
> energy, which is otherwise
> wasted in the muffler. A turbo is
a good muffler by
> itself. Therefore a
> non-turbo muffler,
generally, has to be more
> restrictive in order to quiet
> down the
noise.
>
> Also, the intercooler provides an improved
>
efficiency at WOT operation. It
> is called inter-cooler because it cools
down the
> compressed gas before it
> gets compressed again in the
cylinder. This
> multiple-stage compression
> makes the compression
process closer to the most
> efficient adiabatic (I
> think it is
called adiabatic) process. More
> compressed air with less heat
>
generation.
>
> Philip
>
>
---------------------------------------
>
> There are two main
differences between a typical
> turbo engine and a NA
> engine that
affect fuel efficiency, one good, one
> bad. First the bad,
low
> compression ratio makes for a less efficient engine
> and
results in worse
> economy. On the other hand, the turbo does aid
in
> air supply and thus
> reduces the pumping losses (even though
it adds some
> restriction to the
> exhaust, but negligible at
cruising speeds).
> Overall, economy from a
> turbo
> engine
is usually superior to an NA engine that is
> capable of similar
>
performance.
>
> If ultimate fuel economy was the goal, we'd
Ideally
> want a small
> displacement, variable compression ratio,
turbo
> engine running on a CVT.
> The CVT would keep the engine at
its most efficient
> engine speed
> regardless
> of vehicle
speed and the compression ratio would be
> set as high as the
>
gasoline would allow without knocking and change as
> cruising
loads
> changed.
> Spark and fuel would also be optimized during
these
> operating points to
> obtain max brake specific fuel
consumption (bsfc).
>
> Joe G.
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You
Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:33:45
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
In reference to my post about
mileage per tank of gas I should have said
the car is mostly stock (K&N
FIPK, Magnecor wires, silicone vacuum hose
kit, and about 75-90k miles on the
car).
And yes the tests were similar. To drive 400 miles at an
average of 60
mph means you are going for 6.15 hours. Average any
temperature,
uphills, downhills, straights, etc. in here and you get a good
scenario.
Both were taken about a week or two of each other so temps were
between
65 and 85 degrees, rain, humidity, cloudy, clear, and both during
the
day. I've done enough trips that I can easily pound out a 400-mile
tank
of gas routinely so I think it is a close enough scenario for each
test.
450 miles when a co-pilot is not nudging me to get gas and 500 miles
if
I never run it above 5 psi for the whole tank (which is hard so I
never
try for all out distance since I rarely drive that gingerly).
So
that was on 90k mile old injectors (doubt they got changed at 60k),
30k
mile-old spark plugs, stock fuel pump, stock intercoolers, stock IC
piping,
etc.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with all stock engine bits still (and a new
crank pulley)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:35:16
-0700
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
> Do we know what the 'most
efficient' running point of
> our engines is? Having the 6 speed (in
my 1st gen), I
> normally set the cruise at 80-85mph to keep rpm's
>
around 2400. I'm testing highway mileage right now.
> This seems to
be the rpm that is the lowest AND gets
> the lowest manifold pressure
readings (mech gage).
> But isn't the best efficiency point related to
the
> high torque point also?
I look at the SAFC Karman Vortex
frequency to get an idea of how much fuel I
am using. Since more air =
more fuel being used, I think this is a good
method to get an idea of how
much fuel I'm burning. I have found that I get
the best speed for the
least frequency around 80 mph. The frequency hangs
around 320
then. Lowering my speed, doesn't reduce my frequency much. At
70
mph it is still around 260. If it go up to 90, the number jumps to
about
390. This is all in 5th gear on a 1st gen. Going up steep
hills, my
frequency goes up as high as 500. This includes driving
through the
mountains going from Sacramento CA to Coos Bay OR up I-5. I
never had to
downshift. My fuel milage for the trip was 25 mpg.
It should be better now
since my timing was off by 5 degrees when I took the
trip and I had a broken
vacuum hose.
Doug
92 Stealth RT
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:48:11
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
For any of you who have EGT gauges
installed, could you provide me with some
data?
Typical Manifold EGTs
when:
* Idling
* Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
* Cruising
60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear
* Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear
Any
idea how much temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the turbo
(at
the oxygen sensor)?
In case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the
best way to get a
sustained 10 minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C
(1292F) to "break
in" the oxygen sensor that came with my GReddy A/F
gauge. They tell you to
do it on a dyno or at the track, but I don't
have convenient access to
either and am trying to figure out if I can get
close on public roads
without risking my license :-) It can be under
700C, but the closer to that
mark, the better.
Thanks,
-
--Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:59:19
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
Erik and anyone else interested on my
old MKIV the twin sequential set up
caused a loss of approximately 200-225
deg C, of course this was mounted
directly after the turbo's
Hope this
helps somewhat.....
Russ F
CT
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik [SMTP:erik.gross@intel.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, August 06, 2002 2:48 PM
> To: Team3S List (E-mail)
>
Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
>
> For any of you who have
EGT gauges installed, could you provide me with
> some
>
data?
>
> Typical Manifold EGTs when:
> * Idling
> *
Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
> * Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th
gear
> * Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear
>
> Any idea
how much temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the
>
turbo
> (at the oxygen sensor)?
>
> In case you care :-) I'm
trying to figure out the best way to get a
> sustained 10 minutes of EGTs
close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to "break
> in" the oxygen sensor that
came with my GReddy A/F gauge. They tell you
> to
> do it on a
dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient access to
> either and
am trying to figure out if I can get close on public roads
> without
risking my license :-) It can be under 700C, but the closer to
>
that
> mark, the better.
>
> Thanks,
> --Erik
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This
e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged
and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is
addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than
the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.
==============================================================================
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:28:19
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
"Break in" an oxygen sensor? This would
be like "breaking in" a battery or a
photocell. What could be the rationale
behind such a procedure? What type of
oxygen sensor is
this?
Thanks,
Jeff Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
To: "Team3S
List (E-mail)" <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:48 PM
Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data
Please
For any of you who have EGT gauges installed, could you
provide me with some
data?
Typical Manifold EGTs when:
*
Idling
* Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
* Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or
4th gear
* Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear
Any idea how much
temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the turbo
(at the oxygen
sensor)?
In case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the best way to
get a
sustained 10 minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to
"break
in" the oxygen sensor that came with my GReddy A/F gauge. They
tell you to
do it on a dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient
access to
either and am trying to figure out if I can get close on public
roads
without risking my license :-) It can be under 700C, but the
closer to that
mark, the better.
Thanks,
-
--Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:30:46
-0400
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <
joshua@unconundrum.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly
Alright, I went to
change the fuel pump and while trying to get the high
pressure line apart,
the metal line from the fuel pump assembly bent
pretty bad. I still
don't even have it disconnected. I called up to
order a new pump
assembly and they only sell it complete with fuel
pump!. They want $389
for it. Does anyone have any suggestions or have
a fuel pump assembly
lying around that they want to sell? Thanks for
any
assistance
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:41:08
+0000
From:
mjannusch@attbi.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
> Track performance *should* not be
affected
> because our ECM does not use the oxygen
> sensors during
heavy load cruising or
> acceleration. It uses internal fuel maps
>
instead.
I was under the impression that the short-term and long-
term
fuel trims are calculated into the WOT maps as
well - even though the ECU
isn't using the O2 sensor
feedback at WOT that it was still using the
trims. If
that's the case, then a cold O2 sensor will report lower
values and your car will run richer than it would with a
properly
working sensor.
My '96 Avenger works that way too (with a Mitsu ECU) and
I actually have a bad O2 sensor heater. It is
boggy/rich after
long periods of idle where I can see
the O2 reading low (and not reacting
quickly) and the
fuel trim on that bank gets bumped up and the car is
slower all-around until the trims get bumped closer to
normal with
heating the sensor up by driving harder.
Seems to be supported by this
from your Fuel Injection
Control page:
"In open-loop mode, the ECM is
not using the oxygen
sensor information and instead relies on preset maps
stored in ROM (read-only memory). These maps use engine
speed and A/N
(the amount of intake air into each
cylinder per engine revolution) to
determine the basic
injector activation duration. *The correction factors
discussed above are applied to the map values*."
So, basically by
your fuel trim values being off you
could see decreased performance from bad
O2 sensor(s).
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:53:12
-0700
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly
> Alright, I went
to change the fuel pump and while trying to get the high
> pressure line
apart, the metal line from the fuel pump assembly bent
> pretty bad.
I still don't even have it disconnected. I called up to
> order a
new pump assembly and they only sell it complete with fuel
> pump!.
They want $389 for it. Does anyone have any suggestions or have
> a
fuel pump assembly lying around that they want to sell? Thanks for
>
any assistance
If all you did was bend up the hard fuel line on the
assembly, then take it
to a machine shop and have it welded back on or a new
one put on. It
shouldn't cost more than $100 to have it done.
Probably less. I'm pretty
sure, they will want it completely dry of
fuel before they work on it, so
you will have to remove the pump and let it
sit out for a day or two to let
the gasoline evaporate.
Doug
92
Stealth RT TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:08:15
-0400
From: "Ben M. Jones" <
benjones@protechgp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly
Check out
www.stealth316.com for full instructions.
Saved me your issue.
You need to loosen the connection under the car in front
of the tank
where the rubber fuel line attaches to the rest of the metal
line. I did
mine with the car on the jack so I could get under it. That
fitting will
spin once loosened - go figure.
Ben
-
-----Original Message-----
From: dakken [mailto:dougusmagnus@attbi.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:53 PM
To: Joshua G. Prince;
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly
> Alright, I went
to change the fuel pump and while trying to get the
high
> pressure
line apart, the metal line from the fuel pump assembly bent
> pretty
bad. I still don't even have it disconnected. I called up to
>
order a new pump assembly and they only sell it complete with fuel
>
pump!. They want $389 for it. Does anyone have any suggestions
or
have
> a fuel pump assembly lying around that they want to
sell? Thanks for
> any assistance
If all you did was bend up
the hard fuel line on the assembly, then take
it
to a machine shop and
have it welded back on or a new one put on. It
shouldn't cost more than
$100 to have it done. Probably less. I'm
pretty
sure, they
will want it completely dry of fuel before they work on it,
so
you will
have to remove the pump and let it sit out for a day or two to
let
the
gasoline evaporate.
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:20:42
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
Thanks for the post-turbo data point,
Russell.
> "Break in" an oxygen sensor? This would be like "breaking
in"
> a battery or a photocell. What could be the rationale
behind
> such a procedure? What type of oxygen sensor is
this?
That's what I said when I read the users' manual. As far as I
can tell,
it's a 4-wire Oxygen sensor with a 0-1V output (because it can
replace the
factory sensor if you like). The gauge itself has some
calibration settings
(high/low pressure exhaust and high/low temp exhaust) as
well as the
additional ability to truly calibrate it against a true wide-band
sensor.
It says that AWD/Turbo vehicles use the high-temp and high-pressure
settings
(although I suppose since it's after the turbo the low-temp option
may be
necessary). I'll probably call GReddy and ask them just to be
sure.
The only thing I can guess as to the "break in" period is
burning any
impurities off the sensor and/or allowing the gauge to calibrate
itself.
BTW, this gauge has units of A/F from 8.0 to
16.0 rather than volts, and it
says that while cruising, the needle should
sit right on 14.7. No blinky
lights!
- --Erik
'95
VR-4
P.S. They also said that they recommend that the sensor be
broken in on the
vehicle it will be used in. That makes things
interesting as the sensor I'm
trying to break in is for a friend's '00
Eclipse GT which now has a 16G
turbo on it and is almost ready to be fired
up. He plans to use the A/F
gauge to keep an eye on the car, but he's
not about to "break in" the sensor
on the car as it stands... chicken and egg
:-)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:26:19
-0700
From: "Chris Winkley" <
Chris_Winkley@adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
Erik...
My EGT probe is installed
in the downpipe, so I'm not getting manifold temps as you requested. However,
here's what I normally see:
Idling - 200C
Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or
6th gear (unknown, I rarely use these two gears unless I'm on I-5 doing in
excess of 120 mph)
Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear - 400C
WOT 55mph in
5th or 6th gear (again, I don't think I'd ever do this, I tend to keep my revs
up between 4K and 7K under all conditions, which means using only the first four
gears until I'm well above 100 mph)
Only under WOT with the boost cranked
up to 15 psi or more do I ever see 700C temps. Again, this may be due to the
location of my EGT probe, but this is only 100C away from the redline on my
gauge so I don't like to see it head up there. In fact, I have used 750C as an
indicator to increase the fuel with the "Accel" knob on my ARC2 by 2% to cool
the engine back down while running the 1/4 mile or on the open track. I can't
imagine how to keep 700C up for TEN minutes, unless you could keep it at WOT in
6th gear at top speed where you'd be fighting wind resistance.
Looking
forward...Chris
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik
[mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:48 AM
To:
Team3S List (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
For any
of you who have EGT gauges installed, could you provide me with
some
data?
Typical Manifold EGTs when:
* Idling
* Cruising
60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
* Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear
* Full
throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear
Any idea how much temp drop there is
when if you measure EGT after the turbo
(at the oxygen sensor)?
In
case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the best way to get a
sustained 10
minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to "break
in" the oxygen
sensor that came with my GReddy A/F gauge. They tell you to
do it on a
dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient access to
either and am
trying to figure out if I can get close on public roads
without risking my
license :-) It can be under 700C, but the closer to that
mark, the
better.
Thanks,
- --Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:29:58
-0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
Sorry Matt, I should have been more
specific. The fuel trims for OBDII work
differently (also only 2 trims
instead of 3) than for OBDI. The information on
my web page is derived from
OBDI data. Regardless, the "correction factors" do
not include fuel trims
for either OBDI or OBDII.
What I understand on this issue is that the
OBDII *long-term* fuel trim is
part of the calculation for *basic* injection
duration (driving time). The
OBDII long-term fuel trim is stored in memory
and not erased when ignition is
turned off, but the OBDII short-term fuel
trim is erased when the ignition
switch is off. Unlike OBDII, all three OBDI
fuel trims are stored in memory
and are only erased when backup power is
removed from the ECM (not just
ignition switch power), and none of the OBDI
fuel trims are involved in basic
injector driving time
calculation.
My statement should be more specific I guess: Our ECMs do
not use *real time*
oxygen sensor information in open-loop mode.
:)
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelinjection.htmJeff
Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: <
mjannusch@attbi.com>
To: "Jeff
Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Cc:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, August 06, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor
Question
> Track performance *should* not be affected
>
because our ECM does not use the oxygen
> sensors during heavy load
cruising or
> acceleration. It uses internal fuel maps
>
instead.
I was under the impression that the short-term and long-
term
fuel trims are calculated into the WOT maps as
well - even though the ECU
isn't using the O2 sensor
feedback at WOT that it was still using the
trims. If
that's the case, then a cold O2 sensor will report lower
values and your car will run richer than it would with a
properly
working sensor.
My '96 Avenger works that way too (with a Mitsu ECU) and
I actually have a bad O2 sensor heater. It is
boggy/rich after
long periods of idle where I can see
the O2 reading low (and not reacting
quickly) and the
fuel trim on that bank gets bumped up and the car is
slower all-around until the trims get bumped closer to
normal with
heating the sensor up by driving harder.
Seems to be supported by this
from your Fuel Injection
Control page:
"In open-loop mode, the ECM is
not using the oxygen
sensor information and instead relies on preset maps
stored in ROM (read-only memory). These maps use engine
speed and A/N
(the amount of intake air into each
cylinder per engine revolution) to
determine the basic
injector activation duration. *The correction factors
discussed above are applied to the map values*."
So, basically by
your fuel trim values being off you
could see decreased performance from bad
O2 sensor(s).
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:50:40
-0700
From: Andrew Woll <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Average Monthly Cost Question
Mike - 15k for a decent used one.
You can have mine for 13k. It is in
perfect shape - just had the dealer do a
50k at 110,000 and the tires are
brand new. See it at
http://www.andrewwoll.com/stealth003.jpg-
----- Original Message -----
From: <
M3000GTSL84@aol.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Monday, August 05, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Average Monthly Cost
Question
| Guys with VR-4-
|
| yes they are fast and
amazing-how the 3/S was meant to be
|
| But Shaun said he wants it
affordable. .
|
| And at $15,000 and up for a decent used one. . . twin
turbo AWD AWS with a
| troublesome six speed and only decent gas milage on
premium only may not
be
| the car for everyone-major funds are needed to
keep it goin-and of course
you
| GOTTA make it faster. . .whats the point
then?
|
| So do remember that the DOHC N/A has its own merrits- id rather
be drivin
in
| that then uhhh. . a crustang or somthin
|
|
-mike
| 97 SL
|
|
| *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:11:12
-0500
From: "Dave and Becky Trent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
One aspect seldom disscused in
turbo tuning is the early opening of the
exhaust valve as part of the cam
timing designed to provide combustion
pressure to the turbo. This is
referred to as blow down. Early blow down
reduces efficiency, but
yields better boost response.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
To: "Team3S"
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency
(crusing)
> Hello all -
>
> I love the thought that
goes into topics we toss around here. I read
about
> things that
don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.
thanks
all.
>
> I have been pondering for some time now, how does
turbo affect fuel
> efficiency when crusing? My thoughts are that
the extra air supplied
during
> even small fluctuations of the throttle
results in very poor gas mileage.
> What if the turbos were turned
off? Then the throttle would have to be
> tilted open more to get
the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum drag
> of the engine, which
should equal higher efficiency. On the other hand,
> isn't turbo a
very efficient way to supply air? In other words, isn't the
>
'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>
> Ken
Stanton
>
> ---Ken Stanton
> '91 Pearl White Stealth
RT/TT
> 3Si Rochester (NY)
> FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
> AVC-R
(1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
> Improved Precats
> HKS
SSBOV
> Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
> 6 speed conversion,
RPS Stage II
> Aiwa MP3 Stereo
> 007KEN spark plug plate, license
plates
> ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
> 98/99 COOLANT TANK
(6/26/02)
> Best (pathetic) time:
> 13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly
tuned alky)
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
- -------------------------------------------
Introducing
NetZero Long Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
Sign Up
Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:10:11
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
> My EGT probe is installed in the
downpipe, so I'm not getting
> manifold temps as you requested. However,
here's what I normally see:
Even Better! That's what I really
wanted but everyone I've talked with
seems to have their EGT probe in the
manifold. I just thought that I'd take
the manifold data and subtract a
couple hundred degrees and call it "within
the ballpark."
> Idling
- 200C
Dang. Too low for me :-(
> Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or
6th gear (unknown, I rarely use
> these two gears unless I'm on I-5 doing
in excess of 120 mph)
> Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear -
400C
I'd assume cruising in 5th or 6th would result in lower EGTs than in
3rd or
4th. 400C is the absolute minimum of the acceptable range for
"break-in."
Dang.
> WOT 55mph in 5th or 6th gear (again, I don't
think I'd ever
> do this, I tend to keep my revs up between 4K and 7K
under
> all conditions, which means using only the first four gears
> until I'm well above 100 mph)
Yeah, me too. However, in
the higher gears, you spend more time at WOT
without risking being face down
with a knee in your back.
> Only under WOT with the boost cranked up
to 15 psi or more do
> I ever see 700C temps. Again, this may be due to
the location
> of my EGT probe, but this is only 100C away from the
redline
> on my gauge so I don't like to see it head up there.
Yeah, from what I understand I don't want to see it spend too much
time
above 800C in the manifold. Knock off 200C (Russ's guess) and you're in
the
range of 600C max in the downpipe. 700C in the downpipe sounds like
trouble
waiting to happen :-( I won't be going there.
> I can't imagine how to keep 700C up for TEN minutes, unless
you
> could keep it at WOT in 6th gear at top speed where you'd be
> fighting wind resistance.
Yeah, that's what I was afraid
of. Needless to say, no, I'm not gonna do
that because I like my
drivers' license in one piece.
So it sounds like my attempt at break-in
will consist of going to a nice
flat stretch of I-5 (speed limit 70mph) when
there's little traffic and
going WOT from 55mph to 80ish in 5th, quickly
slowing down to 55, and then
do it again... and again... and again... for 10
whole minutes. Oh well...
- --Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:15:24
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)
This is where cam gears come
in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
degrees. Doing this also increases HP
but a Dave said reduces efficiency...
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Dave and Becky Trent
[SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11
PM
> To: Team3s
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency
(crusing)
>
> One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is the
early opening of the
> exhaust valve as part of the cam timing designed to
provide combustion
> pressure to the turbo. This is referred to as
blow down. Early blow down
> reduces efficiency, but yields better
boost response.
>
> Regards,
> DaveT/92TT
>
>
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Stanton" <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
> To: "Team3S"
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs
efficiency (crusing)
>
>
> > Hello all -
>
>
> > I love the thought that goes into topics we toss around
here. I read
> about
> > things that don't necessarily
pertain to me, yet learn so much. thanks
> all.
> >
>
> I have been pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
>
> efficiency when crusing? My thoughts are that the extra air
supplied
> during
> > even small fluctuations of the throttle
results in very poor gas
> mileage.
> > What if the turbos were
turned off? Then the throttle would have to be
> > tilted open
more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum
> drag
>
> of the engine, which should equal higher efficiency. On the other
hand,
> > isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air? In
other words, isn't
> the
> > 'forced' air greatly reducing the
vacuum drag naturally?
> >
> > Ken Stanton
>
>
> > ---Ken Stanton
> > '91 Pearl White Stealth
RT/TT
> > 3Si Rochester (NY)
> > FIPK, HKS Dual
Exhaust
> > AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
> > Improved
Precats
> > HKS SSBOV
> > Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight
17"
> > 6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
> > Aiwa MP3
Stereo
> > 007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
> > ASC
sunroof, white Ram emblem
> > 98/99 COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
> >
Best (pathetic) time:
> > 13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned
alky)
> >
> >
> >
> > *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
> >
>
>
-------------------------------------------
> Introducing NetZero Long
Distance
> Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
> Sign Up
Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This
e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged
and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is
addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than
the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.
==============================================================================
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:00:00
-0700
From: Damon Rachell <
damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)
Wouldn't you want to advance exhaust
timing in this case to increase the
amount of blown down, i.e. increase the
amount of volitiles in the
exhaust manifold (as in a 2-stage ignition which
severely retards timing)?
Furman, Russell wrote:
> This is
where cam gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
> degrees.
Doing this also increases HP but a Dave said reduces efficiency...
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dave and Becky
Trent [SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11
PM
>>To: Team3s
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency
(crusing)
>>
>>One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is
the early opening of the
>>exhaust valve as part of the cam timing
designed to provide combustion
>>pressure to the turbo. This is
referred to as blow down. Early blow down
>>reduces efficiency,
but yields better boost
response.
>>
>>Regards,
>>DaveT/92TT
>>
>>-----
Original Message -----
>>From: "Ken Stanton" <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
>>To:
"Team3S" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent:
Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
>>Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency
(crusing)
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello all
-
>>>
>>>I love the thought that goes into topics we
toss around here. I
read
>>>
>>about
>>
>>>things that
don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.
thanks
>>>
>>all.
>>
>>>I have been
pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect
fuel
>>>efficiency when crusing? My thoughts are that the
extra air
supplied
>>>
>>during
>>
>>>even small
fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor
gas
>>>
>>mileage.
>>
>>>What if the
turbos were turned off? Then the throttle would have to
be
>>>tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the
vacuum
>>>
>>drag
>>
>>>of the engine,
which should equal higher efficiency. On the other
hand,
>>>isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air? In
other words,
isn't
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>'forced' air
greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>>>
>>>Ken
Stanton
>>>
>>>---Ken Stanton
>>>'91 Pearl
White Stealth RT/TT
>>>3Si Rochester (NY)
>>>FIPK, HKS
Dual Exhaust
>>>AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky
Injection
>>>Improved Precats
>>>HKS
SSBOV
>>>Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
>>>6
speed conversion, RPS Stage II
>>>Aiwa MP3
Stereo
>>>007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>>>ASC
sunroof, white Ram emblem
>>>98/99 COOLANT TANK
(6/26/02)
>>>Best (pathetic) time:
>>>13.5 @ 104mph (1.2
bar w/ poorly tuned
alky)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>>>
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Introducing
NetZero Long Distance
>>Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/
month!
>>Sign Up Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com>>
>>***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged
and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is
addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than
the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.
>
>
>
==============================================================================
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:45:21
-0700
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly
Use
www.car-part.com and search for recyclers
that sell the full assembly,
pre-tested. I got mine for $75. It works great.
I never did get the high
pressure fuel line off though. I ended up using a
couple hose clamps and a
wide heater hose to couple the two existing fuel
lines together. I would
definetely not recommend this. I was simply too
afraid to loosen my assembly
because my car is rusty down there and I don't
want to break the main fuel
delivery line (the one that goes from the back of
the car to the front). If
you do end up using my method, make sure you use
wide gauge FUEL hose, not
heater hose. Heater hose will break down and harden
when exposed to fuel.
Check out my web site below for more
information.
Riyan Mynuddin
1993 stealth rt/tt
my ride:
www.advantedgecomputing.com/stllow/stealth.htm***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:20:18
-0500
From: "Dave and Becky Trent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Clutch Slip Question
1 week before the gathering and low and
behold, after being on jack stands
for the last four weeks during a timing
belt change, I took my car out for a
test ride only to discover that the
clutch appears to be slipping. Prior to
this, the stock clutch has
never shown the slightest sign of slipping even
after numerous track
events. Is it normal to crop up all of a sudden like
this? More
importantly, is it safe to take the 300mi. round trip to the
nat. gathering
this weekend? It's slipping under full throttle in 3rd gear
enough to
rev 1000-1500 rpm faster than normal. Otherwise, it seems
normal.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT/13g's/17psi
-
-------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long
Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
Sign Up Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:22:23
-0700
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch Slip Question
Clutches can be strange things.
Fine one day and going the next. I put
about 2000 miles on a slipping
clutch without it going totally out. This
includes driving faster than
normal to get to work on time. My clutch was
only slipping in 5th gear
at WOT and on hard launches.
What will happen is your clutch will
continue to slip easier the more you
drive it. Eventually, it will be
at the point where you won't be able to
pull up a drive way. Slipping
in 3rd at WOT shows that it has progressed
pretty far.
300 miles
should be ok if most of it is highway driving and you are not
trying to pass
everyone on the road. Don't do any WOT driving. Once you
get
back, I would replace it ASAP.
Doug
92 Stealth RT
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:35:29
-0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)
Yeah now that I think about it
a second time....... I think you are correct
ahh boy talk about not
looking before I leap
- -----Original Message-----
From: Damon
Rachell [mailto:damonr@mefas.com]
Sent: Tue 8/6/2002 6:00 PM
To: Furman,
Russell
Cc: Team3s
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency
(cruising)
Wouldn't you want to advance exhaust timing in this
case to increase the
amount of blown down, i.e. increase the amount of
volitiles in the
exhaust manifold (as in a 2-stage ignition which severely
retards timing)?
Furman, Russell wrote:
> This is where cam
gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
> degrees. Doing this
also increases HP but a Dave said reduces
efficiency...
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dave and Becky Trent
[SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11 PM
>>To: Team3s
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs
efficiency (crusing)
>>
>>One aspect seldom disscused in
turbo tuning is the early opening of the
>>exhaust valve as part of
the cam timing designed to provide combustion
>>pressure to the
turbo. This is referred to as blow down. Early blow
down
>>reduces efficiency, but yields better boost response.
>>
>>Regards,
>>DaveT/92TT
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ken Stanton" <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
>>To:
"Team3S" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
>>Subject: Team3S:
Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello all -
>>>
>>>I love the thought
that goes into topics we toss around here. I read
>>>
>>about
>>
>>>things that don't necessarily
pertain to me, yet learn so much. thanks
>>>
>>all.
>>
>>>I have been pondering for some time now, how does
turbo affect fuel
>>>efficiency when crusing? My thoughts are
that the extra air supplied
>>>
>>during
>>
>>>even small fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor gas
>>>
>>mileage.
>>
>>>What if the
turbos were turned off? Then the throttle would have to be
>>>tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the
vacuum
>>>
>>drag
>>
>>>of the
engine, which should equal higher efficiency. On the other hand,
>>>isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air? In other
words, isn't
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>>>
>>>Ken Stanton
>>>
>>>---Ken Stanton
>>>'91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
>>>3Si Rochester (NY)
>>>FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
>>>AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
>>>Improved
Precats
>>>HKS SSBOV
>>>Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig
Flight 17"
>>>6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
>>>Aiwa
MP3 Stereo
>>>007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>>>ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
>>>98/99 COOLANT TANK
(6/26/02)
>>>Best (pathetic) time:
>>>13.5 @ 104mph
(1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm<
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>
***
>>>
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Introducing
NetZero Long Distance
>>Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
>>Sign Up Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>
>>*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm<
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>
***
>>
>
>
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
--
> This e-mail transmission may contain information that is
proprietary,
privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for
the person(s)
to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or
disclosure by any
person other than the intended recipient or the intended
recipient's
designees is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
message in
error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and
delete all
copies.
>
>
>
============================================================================
==
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm<
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>
***
>
>
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This
e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged
and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is
addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than
the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.
==============================================================================
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:03:06
-0700
From: Damon Rachell <
damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)
So that brings up a great question:
Where does the HP come from when
you advance the intake cams 1 deg and
retard the exhaust 4? Since this
seems to be the magic number, it
sounds like a compromise in lag for HP.
All in all, which is
more important for better ETs? broader torque
curve or higher
HP? Is it possible to get higher trap speeds while
getting lower
ETs?
Furman, Russell wrote:
> Yeah now that I think about it a
second time....... I think you are correct
> ahh boy talk about not
looking before I leap
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Damon Rachell [mailto:damonr@mefas.com]
> Sent: Tue 8/6/2002 6:00 PM
> To: Furman, Russell
> Cc: Team3s
> Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)
>
>
>
> Wouldn't you
want to advance exhaust timing in this case to increase the
> amount of
blown down, i.e. increase the amount of volitiles in the
> exhaust
manifold (as in a 2-stage ignition which severely retards timing)?
>
> Furman, Russell wrote:
>
>
>>This is where cam
gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
>>degrees. Doing
this also increases HP but a Dave said reduces
>>
> efficiency...
>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Dave and Becky Trent [SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11 PM
>>>To: Team3s
>>>Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs
efficiency (crusing)
>>>
>>>One aspect seldom disscused
in turbo tuning is the early opening of the
>>>exhaust valve as
part of the cam timing designed to provide combustion
>>>pressure
to the turbo. This is referred to as blow down. Early blow
down
>>>
>
>>>reduces efficiency, but yields
better boost response.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>DaveT/92TT
>>>
>>>----- Original
Message -----
>>>From: "Ken Stanton" <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
>>>To:
"Team3S" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
>>>Subject:
Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hello
all -
>>>>
>>>>I love the thought that goes into
topics we toss around here. I read
>>>>
>>>>
>>>about
>>>
>>>
>>>>things that don't
necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much. thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>all.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have been pondering for
some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
>>>>efficiency when
crusing? My thoughts are that the extra air supplied
>>>>
>>>>
>>>during
>>>
>>>
>>>>even small fluctuations of
the throttle results in very poor gas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>mileage.
>>>
>>>
>>>>What if the turbos were
turned off? Then the throttle would have to be
>>>>tilted
open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum
>>>>
>>>>
>>>drag
>>>
>>>
>>>>of the engine, which should
equal higher efficiency. On the other hand,
>>>>isn't
turbo a very efficient way to supply air? In other words, isn't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>'forced' air greatly
reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>>>>
>>>>Ken
Stanton
>>>>
>>>>---Ken Stanton
>>>>'91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
>>>>3Si
Rochester (NY)
>>>>FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
>>>>AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
>>>>Improved Precats
>>>>HKS SSBOV
>>>>Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
>>>>6
speed conversion, RPS Stage II
>>>>Aiwa MP3 Stereo
>>>>007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>>>>ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
>>>>98/99
COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
>>>>Best (pathetic) time:
>>>>13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>>>>
>
<
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>
***
>
>>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Introducing NetZero Long Distance
>>>Unlimited Long
Distance only $29.95/ month!
>>>Sign Up Today!
www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>>
>>>*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>>>
>
<
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>
***
>
>>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:07:23
-0700
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S:
propane injection explained ???
I finally found what I consider a
reasonable explanation for the improvement
in detonation resistance when
injecting propane into the intake.
I've been told propane is 140 octane
--- it's not, it's 104 to 110.
I've been told that it's -60º --- it may be at
the vapor/liquid interface but it's
not after going down a 10 foot rubber
hose. If used continuously the temp
will drop, but in reality you use the
propane for a few seconds at a time.
In addition the amount of propane is
very small with respect to the air charge.
The intake charge on a
gasoline engine is not homogeneous --- when fuel is
injected into air charge
some of it vaporizes and forms a vapor while some
remains in droplet form.
This results in an uneven mixture , which in turn results
in uneven burning
which can cause detonation when the unburned end gasses
ignite as a result of
pressure and heat. The uncontrolled ignition causes extreme
pressure peaks
known as detonation. Engine damage may be the end result.
Modern engines
are designed to stir the air/fuel charge by using injectors that
generate
small droplets [ I don't know why they don't use much higher pressure
],
Intakes that produce turbulence and piston/head designs with squish areas
that
provide additional turbulence to enhance mixing. They also use quench
areas that
cool the end gasses to help eliminate the self ignition of
unburned fuel. Even with
all these mixing operations the charges remains
uneven and prone to flame fronts
that do not burn evenly.
The
injection of propane, a completely homogeneous gas, mixes with the
non-
homogeneous air/gas charge and improves the burn characteristics
and
therefore reduces detonation caused by unburned end gasses. The end
result
is an engine less prone to damaging detonation.
Objections or
comments anyone ???
Jim Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:27:56
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Saner AWD Front Anti-Sway Bar Installation Guide and Review
As
promised, here it is.
http://www.team3s.com/~egross/3000GT/FSwB/FSwB.htmlHopefully
no one else will enter this blind, not knowing what they signed up
for.
I know having instructions would have cut a significant amount of time
off of
my installation :-)
A big thanks to all (you know who you are) who
offered suggestions
during/after my installation to help address issues and
preserve my sanity!
- --Erik
'95 VR-4 with Front Saner Anti-sway
Bar
Rear Bar going in "soon"
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:15:02
-0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: propane injection explained ???
I have made my own propane setup
which I planned to market, but am still
testing. I think that my system and
the best out there thus far, but I am
keeping it under wraps until I am 100%
satisfied with it and till I can get
a copyright to the design. I have been
using it for about a month with
awesome results. The system currently on my
car is mounted under the hood
for many reasons, safety being one of them. One
thing I can say is that I
did not expect nearly as much of an improvement
form it as I have had. I did
some math and the propane under boost would make
up less than 20% of the
total fuel going into the engine. Having as the
octane ratings were so
close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference,
but reading some of the
knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply
stunned. There is no more
knock, period! I do not know the science behind it,
but it works and that's
all there is to it.
Tyson
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of fastmax
Sent: Tuesday, August
06, 2002 7:07 PM
To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: propane injection explained ???
I finally found what I
consider a reasonable explanation for the improvement
in detonation
resistance when injecting propane into the intake.
I've been told propane
is 140 octane --- it's not, it's 104 to 110.
I've been told that it's -60º
--- it may be at the vapor/liquid interface
but it's
not after going down
a 10 foot rubber hose. If used continuously the temp
will drop, but in
reality you use the propane for a few seconds at a time.
In addition the
amount of propane is very small with respect to the air
charge.
The
intake charge on a gasoline engine is not homogeneous --- when fuel
is
injected into air charge some of it vaporizes and forms a vapor while
some
remains in droplet form. This results in an uneven mixture , which in
turn
results
in uneven burning which can cause detonation when the
unburned end gasses
ignite as a result of pressure and heat. The uncontrolled
ignition causes
extreme
pressure peaks known as detonation. Engine damage
may be the end result.
Modern engines are designed to stir the air/fuel
charge by using injectors
that
generate small droplets [ I don't know why
they don't use much higher
pressure ],
Intakes that produce turbulence and
piston/head designs with squish areas
that
provide additional turbulence
to enhance mixing. They also use quench areas
that
cool the end gasses to
help eliminate the self ignition of unburned fuel.
Even with
all these
mixing operations the charges remains uneven and prone to
flame
fronts
that do not burn evenly.
The injection of propane, a
completely homogeneous gas, mixes with the non-
homogeneous air/gas charge
and improves the burn characteristics and
therefore reduces detonation caused
by unburned end gasses. The end result
is an engine less prone to damaging
detonation.
Objections or comments anyone ???
Jim
Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 01:16:38
-0700
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <
riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly
Joshua-
You're welcome.
Good luck. Remember--don't be too hard on fuel delivery
lines. Our cars are
expensive toys. If you're unsure then make sure you read
and reread the
Stealth316 website and/or check with your local shop before
loosen those
hoses. You may want to get your local shop to do the process
for you if they
will assume liability.
Riyan
1993 stealth rt/tt
my ride:
www.advantedgecomputing.com/stllow/stealth.htm-
---------------------cut--------------------------->
Yo man, THANK YOU
SO MUCH, for that link.
-
---------------------cut--------------------------->
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:22:08
+0200
From: "howard smith" <
darkstar4000h@msn.com>
Subject:
Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Hello everyone this is my 1st post to the
list after joining a few days
back and I must say good job guys. To my
question at hand I am Shipping
my 1993 3000 GT VR4 from the State's to
Germany (which I have been
working in Germany for 3 years now. retired) I was
thinking the only
thing that my car should need is a fog light for the back
of the car.
But other then that I should not have to make any other change's
to the
car. I have been asking around but no one can tell me for sure,
any
input would be great!!
Thanks a lot for the web
site!!!
Howard Smith
1993 Gray 3000GT VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 04:09:52
-0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Foglight? For the back? Am I missing
something here? Like a backup light?
Tyson
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of howard smith
Sent: Wednesday,
August 07, 2002 3:22 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Hello everyone this is my 1st post to
the list after joining a few days
back and I must say good job guys. To
my question at hand I am Shipping
my 1993 3000 GT VR4 from the State's to
Germany (which I have been
working in Germany for 3 years now. retired) I was
thinking the only
thing that my car should need is a fog light for the back
of the car.
But other then that I should not have to make any other change's
to the
car. I have been asking around but no one can tell me for sure,
any
input would be great!!
Thanks a lot for the web
site!!!
Howard Smith
1993 Gray 3000GT VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:19:24
+0200
From: "howard smith" <
darkstar4000h@msn.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Yes I was told that in some parts of
Germany you must have a rear fog
light.
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Tigran Varosyan
Sent:
Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:10 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Foglight? For the back? Am I missing
something here? Like a backup
light?
Tyson
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of howard smith
Sent: Wednesday,
August 07, 2002 3:22 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Hello everyone this is my 1st post to
the list after joining a few days
back and I must say good job guys. To
my question at hand I am Shipping
my 1993 3000 GT VR4 from the State's to
Germany (which I have been
working in Germany for 3 years now. retired) I was
thinking the only
thing that my car should need is a fog light for the back
of the car.
But other then that I should not have to make any other change's
to the
car. I have been asking around but no one can tell me for sure,
any
input would be great!!
Thanks a lot for the web
site!!!
Howard Smith
1993 Gray 3000GT VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:25:31
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4
Jim Matthews,
http://www.the-matthews.com, can tell you
since he
recently moved his Stealth from Germany to England.
In
addition - you can also try removing all the legal emissions stuff
that the
US has on it like a catalytic converter, pre-cats, and stuff
like that.
I don't know how nice the German folk are to cars removing
those things but
when importing a car from Europe to the States it
requires all sorts of
exhaust add-ons to be legal.
The fog light in the back is called
something else but it is used both
in heavy fog so they do not have 100+ car
pile-ups on the Autobahn as
well as when parking. You park against the
street and the light is on
the rear driver's corner so that cars will not hit
you as you are
parked. If you drive on the left-side (England) then
this light would
be on the Passenger side rear corner.
Don't forget
about the side marker lights on the front quarter panels.
Don't forget
about headlight washers.
Look at Roger Gerl's site,
www.rtec.ch, for some of these items (like
the
headlight washer tank).
I'm thinking the oil and fuel system will be fine
but make sure you do
not use Leaded fuel or else remove the O2 sensors.
They should have
Unleaded over there but just watch that for a little
bit.
Welcome to the list and sorry to see a car leave but good job taking
it
over.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From:
howard smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 07:19
Yes I was told
that in some parts of Germany you must have a rear fog
light.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#918
***************************************
