Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Wednesday, August 7 2002   Volume 01 : Number 918




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:40:30 -0400
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)

Hey, Joe, good summary of turbo advantages. Just wanted to add that a
turbo car also gets use of the huge exhaust gas energy, which is otherwise
wasted in the muffler. A turbo is a good muffler by itself. Therefore a
non-turbo muffler, generally, has to be more restrictive in order to quiet
down the noise.

Also, the intercooler provides an improved efficiency at WOT operation. It
is called inter-cooler because it cools down the compressed gas before it
gets compressed again in the cylinder. This multiple-stage compression
makes the compression process closer to the most efficient adiabatic (I
think it is called adiabatic) process. More compressed air with less heat
generation.

Philip

- ---------------------------------------

There are two main differences between a typical turbo engine and a NA
engine that affect fuel efficiency, one good, one bad.  First the bad, low
compression ratio makes for a less efficient engine and results in worse
economy.  On the other hand, the turbo does aid in air supply and thus
reduces the pumping losses (even though it adds some restriction to the
exhaust, but negligible at cruising speeds).  Overall, economy from a
turbo
engine is usually superior to an NA engine that is capable of similar
performance.

If ultimate fuel economy was the goal, we'd Ideally want a small
displacement, variable compression ratio, turbo engine running on a CVT.
The CVT would keep the engine at its most efficient engine speed
regardless
of vehicle speed and the compression ratio would be set as high as the
gasoline would allow without knocking and change as cruising loads
changed.
Spark and fuel would also be optimized during these operating points to
obtain max brake specific fuel consumption (bsfc).

Joe G.





***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0400
From: Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question

It is my understanding that our TT cars have heated O2 sensors, although I
don't really know what this means or what this feature does for the engine.
I've noticed for some time, that one of the 4 wires that connect to my
front O2 sensor is broken. According to the wiring diagrams, its the wire
that supplies voltage (heat?) to the sensor. My car runs OK, but has never
performed at the track as well as other 3S's with similar mods. My O2
readings seem to be OK, but I normally have to set the fuel controller a
little on the rich side to obtain optimal readings. And the front O2 sensor
typically shows a slightly richer mixture than the rear.

Because of where the wire is broken, it will be a PITA to repair. Is this
something I should be concerned about? Does this "heater" do anything for
our cars once the engine has warmed up? Could this possibly be affecting
the car's performance at the track?

Jeff W.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:15:04 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Katlysator

Hmmmm, interesting ---- I find it hard to believe they actually relaxed the
standards. I wonder if they vary within the state. I know that some counties
have lower standards but I would expect you and I would be the same since
we live in heavily urbanized areas.

Anybody with numbers for a car without precats, that's coming up for me.

        Jim Berry
==================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <Team3S@Team3S.com>
Cc: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>; "Hans Hortin" <hortin@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Katlysator


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
> > Hans
> > The following information is from California which normally has the most
> strict smog tests in the US. They also check Nox but for some reason I didn't
> include it in the following email.
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Mark FWIW ---- I dug up my old smog test from 12/27/00.
> > Precats and cat in place.
> > idle -------------  HC(ppm) ---- max allowed 100, measured 5
> > 2500 rpm -----   HC(ppm) ---- max allowed 130, measured 6
> > idle ------------     CO(%) ------- max allowed 1.00, measured 0.00
> > 2500 rpm ----      CO(%) -------- max sllowed 1.00, measured 0.00
> >         Jim Berry
> ------------------------------------------------->
>
> Hans,
>
> I couldn't find any figures for Florida, as you asked, but I can share my
> latest numbers.  I took a chance with my recent emissions test, and brought
> the car in COLD, without giving it time to warm up the cats (Katlysators).
> You *should* run the car on the highway at over 100kph (60mph) for 15 minutes
> before emissions testing (for better results)...
>
> Based on Jim Berry's numbers above, it apears that the geniuses in Washington
> (or Sacramento) have substantially relaxed the (2500 rpm) emissions standards
> on hydrocarbons & Carbon Monoxide since December, 2000!?!  My numbers from
> late July, '02, (including Oxygen) for a stock exhaust, '94 Stealth NT are:
> Idle    RPM -----   HC(ppm) --- max allowed 100, measured 1
> 2500 RPM -----   HC(ppm) --- max allowed 220, measured 3
> Idle    RPM -----  CO( % ) ----- max allowed 1.00, measured 0
> 2500 RPM -----  CO( % ) ----- max allowed 1.20, measured 0
> Idle    RPM -----  O²( % ) ----- **Out of Calibration**, measured 1.1
> 2500 RPM -----  O²( % ) ----- **Out of Calibration**, measured 0.9
>
> Best,
> Forrest
>
>



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:37:58 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question

Our stock oxygen sensors are 4-wire, heated, Zirconia, thimble-type oxygen
sensors. Stamped on each sensor is "NGK 303H". This type of sensor is heated
to bring it into its operating temperature range quicker than just the exhaust
could do it. That just means the A/F is controlled sooner by the ECM and
emissions are improved. Once the engine is warm the "heated" part of the
sensor has little influence except perhaps to keep the sensor warm during
prolonged idling.

Track performance *should* not be affected because our ECM does not use the
oxygen sensors during heavy load cruising or acceleration. It uses internal
fuel maps instead.

Oxygen sensor R&R:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-oxygensensor.htm

Fuel injection control:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelinjection.htm

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:57 AM
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question

It is my understanding that our TT cars have heated O2 sensors, although I
don't really know what this means or what this feature does for the engine.
I've noticed for some time, that one of the 4 wires that connect to my
front O2 sensor is broken. According to the wiring diagrams, its the wire
that supplies voltage (heat?) to the sensor. My car runs OK, but has never
performed at the track as well as other 3S's with similar mods. My O2
readings seem to be OK, but I normally have to set the fuel controller a
little on the rich side to obtain optimal readings. And the front O2 sensor
typically shows a slightly richer mixture than the rear.

Because of where the wire is broken, it will be a PITA to repair. Is this
something I should be concerned about? Does this "heater" do anything for
our cars once the engine has warmed up? Could this possibly be affecting
the car's performance at the track?

Jeff W.



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:39:29 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question

I'm also curious since the book says these should be replaced at each
tune-up and I just had a 90k completed and didn't think to ask if this
was covered.  There was no breakdown of parts on the bill (such as spark
plugs, oil, coolant, power steering fluid, etc.) so it didn't hit me.
Last tune-up was for the 60k.  Anyone have a "general" idea if these
need replaced every 30k, 45k, 60k, 90k, etc?

My front exhaust manifold will be getting replaced soon and while it is
out would be a perfect time to get to this item.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 09:57

It is my understanding that our TT cars have heated O2 sensors, although
I don't really know what this means or what this feature does for the
engine. I've noticed for some time, that one of the 4 wires that connect
to my front O2 sensor is broken. According to the wiring diagrams, its
the wire that supplies voltage (heat?) to the sensor. My car runs OK,
but has never performed at the track as well as other 3S's with similar
mods. My O2 readings seem to be OK, but I normally have to set the fuel
controller a little on the rich side to obtain optimal readings. And the
front O2 sensor typically shows a slightly richer mixture than the rear.

Because of where the wire is broken, it will be a PITA to repair. Is
this something I should be concerned about? Does this "heater" do
anything for our cars once the engine has warmed up? Could this possibly
be affecting the car's performance at the track?


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)

Guys -

This is awesome... I'm eating this right up (over
lunch =). 

Excellent descriptions of compression & pumping
losses, it really puts a lot into perspective.  And I
never really thought about the whole system vs NA
cars.  Great stuff.

Do we know what the 'most efficient' running point of
our engines is?  Having the 6 speed (in my 1st gen), I
normally set the cruise at 80-85mph to keep rpm's
around 2400.  I'm testing highway mileage right now.
This seems to be the rpm that is the lowest AND gets
the lowest manifold pressure readings (mech gage).
But isn't the best efficiency point related to the
high torque point also? 

In perspective of all this, have any thoughts on what
the optimal boost level is?  Theoretically or
otherwise, but I know 10psi on the highway isn't it,
and I know now that no boost is not the answer either.

Yes, I am on a mission....

Thanks!!!!!!!
Ken



- --- pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com wrote:
>
> Hey, Joe, good summary of turbo advantages. Just
> wanted to add that a
> turbo car also gets use of the huge exhaust gas
> energy, which is otherwise
> wasted in the muffler. A turbo is a good muffler by
> itself. Therefore a
> non-turbo muffler, generally, has to be more
> restrictive in order to quiet
> down the noise.
>
> Also, the intercooler provides an improved
> efficiency at WOT operation. It
> is called inter-cooler because it cools down the
> compressed gas before it
> gets compressed again in the cylinder. This
> multiple-stage compression
> makes the compression process closer to the most
> efficient adiabatic (I
> think it is called adiabatic) process. More
> compressed air with less heat
> generation.
>
> Philip
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> There are two main differences between a typical
> turbo engine and a NA
> engine that affect fuel efficiency, one good, one
> bad.  First the bad, low
> compression ratio makes for a less efficient engine
> and results in worse
> economy.  On the other hand, the turbo does aid in
> air supply and thus
> reduces the pumping losses (even though it adds some
> restriction to the
> exhaust, but negligible at cruising speeds).
> Overall, economy from a
> turbo
> engine is usually superior to an NA engine that is
> capable of similar
> performance.
>
> If ultimate fuel economy was the goal, we'd Ideally
> want a small
> displacement, variable compression ratio, turbo
> engine running on a CVT.
> The CVT would keep the engine at its most efficient
> engine speed
> regardless
> of vehicle speed and the compression ratio would be
> set as high as the
> gasoline would allow without knocking and change as
> cruising loads
> changed.
> Spark and fuel would also be optimized during these
> operating points to
> obtain max brake specific fuel consumption (bsfc).
>
> Joe G.
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:33:45 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)

In reference to my post about mileage per tank of gas I should have said
the car is mostly stock (K&N FIPK, Magnecor wires, silicone vacuum hose
kit, and about 75-90k miles on the car).

And yes the tests were similar.  To drive 400 miles at an average of 60
mph means you are going for 6.15 hours.  Average any temperature,
uphills, downhills, straights, etc. in here and you get a good scenario.
Both were taken about a week or two of each other so temps were between
65 and 85 degrees, rain, humidity, cloudy, clear, and both during the
day.  I've done enough trips that I can easily pound out a 400-mile tank
of gas routinely so I think it is a close enough scenario for each test.
450 miles when a co-pilot is not nudging me to get gas and 500 miles if
I never run it above 5 psi for the whole tank (which is hard so I never
try for all out distance since I rarely drive that gingerly).

So that was on 90k mile old injectors (doubt they got changed at 60k),
30k mile-old spark plugs, stock fuel pump, stock intercoolers, stock IC
piping, etc.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with all stock engine bits still (and a new crank pulley)


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:35:16 -0700
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)

> Do we know what the 'most efficient' running point of
> our engines is?  Having the 6 speed (in my 1st gen), I
> normally set the cruise at 80-85mph to keep rpm's
> around 2400.  I'm testing highway mileage right now.
> This seems to be the rpm that is the lowest AND gets
> the lowest manifold pressure readings (mech gage).
> But isn't the best efficiency point related to the
> high torque point also?

I look at the SAFC Karman Vortex frequency to get an idea of how much fuel I
am using.  Since more air = more fuel being used, I think this is a good
method to get an idea of how much fuel I'm burning.  I have found that I get
the best speed for the least frequency around 80 mph.  The frequency hangs
around 320 then.  Lowering my speed, doesn't reduce my frequency much.  At
70 mph it is still around 260.  If it go up to 90, the number jumps to about
390.  This is all in 5th gear on a 1st gen.  Going up steep hills, my
frequency goes up as high as 500.  This includes driving through the
mountains going from Sacramento CA to Coos Bay OR up I-5.  I never had to
downshift.  My fuel milage for the trip was 25 mpg.  It should be better now
since my timing was off by 5 degrees when I took the trip and I had a broken
vacuum hose.


Doug
92 Stealth RT TT


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:48:11 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please

For any of you who have EGT gauges installed, could you provide me with some
data?

Typical Manifold EGTs when:
* Idling
* Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
* Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear
* Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear

Any idea how much temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the turbo
(at the oxygen sensor)?

In case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the best way to get a
sustained 10 minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to "break
in" the oxygen sensor that came with my GReddy A/F gauge.  They tell you to
do it on a dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient access to
either and am trying to figure out if I can get close on public roads
without risking my license :-)  It can be under 700C, but the closer to that
mark, the better.

Thanks,
- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:59:19 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please

Erik and anyone else interested on my old MKIV the twin sequential set up
caused a loss of approximately 200-225 deg C, of course this was mounted
directly after the turbo's

Hope this helps somewhat.....

Russ F
CT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik [SMTP:erik.gross@intel.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 2:48 PM
> To: Team3S List (E-mail)
> Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please
>
> For any of you who have EGT gauges installed, could you provide me with
> some
> data?
>
> Typical Manifold EGTs when:
> * Idling
> * Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
> * Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear
> * Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear
>
> Any idea how much temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the
> turbo
> (at the oxygen sensor)?
>
> In case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the best way to get a
> sustained 10 minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to "break
> in" the oxygen sensor that came with my GReddy A/F gauge.  They tell you
> to
> do it on a dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient access to
> either and am trying to figure out if I can get close on public roads
> without risking my license :-)  It can be under 700C, but the closer to
> that
> mark, the better.
>
> Thanks,
> --Erik
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.


==============================================================================


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:28:19 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please

"Break in" an oxygen sensor? This would be like "breaking in" a battery or a
photocell. What could be the rationale behind such a procedure? What type of
oxygen sensor is this?

Thanks,

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
To: "Team3S List (E-mail)" <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:48 PM
Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please


For any of you who have EGT gauges installed, could you provide me with some
data?

Typical Manifold EGTs when:
* Idling
* Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
* Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear
* Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear

Any idea how much temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the turbo
(at the oxygen sensor)?

In case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the best way to get a
sustained 10 minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to "break
in" the oxygen sensor that came with my GReddy A/F gauge.  They tell you to
do it on a dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient access to
either and am trying to figure out if I can get close on public roads
without risking my license :-)  It can be under 700C, but the closer to that
mark, the better.

Thanks,
- --Erik




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:30:46 -0400
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <joshua@unconundrum.com>
Subject: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly

Alright, I went to change the fuel pump and while trying to get the high
pressure line apart, the metal line from the fuel pump assembly bent
pretty bad.  I still don't even have it disconnected.  I called up to
order a new pump assembly and they only sell it complete with fuel
pump!.  They want $389 for it.  Does anyone have any suggestions or have
a fuel pump assembly lying around that they want to sell?  Thanks for
any assistance




***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:41:08 +0000
From: mjannusch@attbi.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question

> Track performance *should* not be affected
> because our ECM does not use the oxygen
> sensors during heavy load cruising or
> acceleration. It uses internal fuel maps
> instead.

I was under the impression that the short-term and long-
term fuel trims are calculated into the WOT maps as
well - even though the ECU isn't using the O2 sensor
feedback at WOT that it was still using the trims.  If
that's the case, then a cold O2 sensor will report lower
values and your car will run richer than it would with a
properly working sensor.

My '96 Avenger works that way too (with a Mitsu ECU) and
I actually have a bad O2 sensor heater.  It is
boggy/rich after long periods of idle where I can see
the O2 reading low (and not reacting quickly) and the
fuel trim on that bank gets bumped up and the car is
slower all-around until the trims get bumped closer to
normal with heating the sensor up by driving harder.

Seems to be supported by this from your Fuel Injection
Control page:

"In open-loop mode, the ECM is not using the oxygen
sensor information and instead relies on preset maps
stored in ROM (read-only memory). These maps use engine
speed and A/N (the amount of intake air into each
cylinder per engine revolution) to determine the basic
injector activation duration. *The correction factors
discussed above are applied to the map values*."

So, basically by your fuel trim values being off you
could see decreased performance from bad O2 sensor(s).

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:53:12 -0700
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly

> Alright, I went to change the fuel pump and while trying to get the high
> pressure line apart, the metal line from the fuel pump assembly bent
> pretty bad.  I still don't even have it disconnected.  I called up to
> order a new pump assembly and they only sell it complete with fuel
> pump!.  They want $389 for it.  Does anyone have any suggestions or have
> a fuel pump assembly lying around that they want to sell?  Thanks for
> any assistance

If all you did was bend up the hard fuel line on the assembly, then take it
to a machine shop and have it welded back on or a new one put on.  It
shouldn't cost more than $100 to have it done.  Probably less.  I'm pretty
sure, they will want it completely dry of fuel before they work on it, so
you will have to remove the pump and let it sit out for a day or two to let
the gasoline evaporate.


Doug
92 Stealth RT TT


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:08:15 -0400
From: "Ben M. Jones" <benjones@protechgp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly

Check out www.stealth316.com for full instructions. Saved me your issue.
You need to loosen the connection under the car in front of the tank
where the rubber fuel line attaches to the rest of the metal line. I did
mine with the car on the jack so I could get under it. That fitting will
spin once loosened - go figure.

Ben

- -----Original Message-----
From: dakken [mailto:dougusmagnus@attbi.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:53 PM
To: Joshua G. Prince; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly

> Alright, I went to change the fuel pump and while trying to get the
high
> pressure line apart, the metal line from the fuel pump assembly bent
> pretty bad.  I still don't even have it disconnected.  I called up to
> order a new pump assembly and they only sell it complete with fuel
> pump!.  They want $389 for it.  Does anyone have any suggestions or
have
> a fuel pump assembly lying around that they want to sell?  Thanks for
> any assistance

If all you did was bend up the hard fuel line on the assembly, then take
it
to a machine shop and have it welded back on or a new one put on.  It
shouldn't cost more than $100 to have it done.  Probably less.  I'm
pretty
sure, they will want it completely dry of fuel before they work on it,
so
you will have to remove the pump and let it sit out for a day or two to
let
the gasoline evaporate.


Doug
92 Stealth RT TT


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:20:42 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please

Thanks for the post-turbo data point, Russell.

> "Break in" an oxygen sensor? This would be like "breaking in"
> a battery or a photocell. What could be the rationale behind
> such a procedure? What type of oxygen sensor is this?

That's what I said when I read the users' manual.  As far as I can tell,
it's a 4-wire Oxygen sensor with a 0-1V output (because it can replace the
factory sensor if you like).  The gauge itself has some calibration settings
(high/low pressure exhaust and high/low temp exhaust) as well as the
additional ability to truly calibrate it against a true wide-band sensor.
It says that AWD/Turbo vehicles use the high-temp and high-pressure settings
(although I suppose since it's after the turbo the low-temp option may be
necessary).  I'll probably call GReddy and ask them just to be sure. 

The only thing I can guess as to the "break in" period is burning any
impurities off the sensor and/or allowing the gauge to calibrate itself.   

BTW, this gauge has units of A/F from 8.0 to 16.0 rather than volts, and it
says that while cruising, the needle should sit right on 14.7.  No blinky
lights!

- --Erik
'95 VR-4

P.S.  They also said that they recommend that the sensor be broken in on the
vehicle it will be used in.  That makes things interesting as the sensor I'm
trying to break in is for a friend's '00 Eclipse GT which now has a 16G
turbo on it and is almost ready to be fired up.  He plans to use the A/F
gauge to keep an eye on the car, but he's not about to "break in" the sensor
on the car as it stands... chicken and egg :-)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:26:19 -0700
From: "Chris Winkley" <Chris_Winkley@adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please

Erik...

My EGT probe is installed in the downpipe, so I'm not getting manifold temps as you requested. However, here's what I normally see:

Idling - 200C
Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear (unknown, I rarely use these two gears unless I'm on I-5 doing in excess of 120 mph)
Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear - 400C
WOT 55mph in 5th or 6th gear (again, I don't think I'd ever do this, I tend to keep my revs up between 4K and 7K under all conditions, which means using only the first four gears until I'm well above 100 mph)

Only under WOT with the boost cranked up to 15 psi or more do I ever see 700C temps. Again, this may be due to the location of my EGT probe, but this is only 100C away from the redline on my gauge so I don't like to see it head up there. In fact, I have used 750C as an indicator to increase the fuel with the "Accel" knob on my ARC2 by 2% to cool the engine back down while running the 1/4 mile or on the open track. I can't imagine how to keep 700C up for TEN minutes, unless you could keep it at WOT in 6th gear at top speed where you'd be fighting wind resistance.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik [mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:48 AM
To: Team3S List (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please


For any of you who have EGT gauges installed, could you provide me with some
data?

Typical Manifold EGTs when:
* Idling
* Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear
* Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear
* Full throttle 55mph in 5th or 6th gear

Any idea how much temp drop there is when if you measure EGT after the turbo
(at the oxygen sensor)?

In case you care :-) I'm trying to figure out the best way to get a
sustained 10 minutes of EGTs close to or exceeding 700C (1292F) to "break
in" the oxygen sensor that came with my GReddy A/F gauge.  They tell you to
do it on a dyno or at the track, but I don't have convenient access to
either and am trying to figure out if I can get close on public roads
without risking my license :-)  It can be under 700C, but the closer to that
mark, the better.

Thanks,
- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:29:58 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question

Sorry Matt, I should have been more specific. The fuel trims for OBDII work
differently (also only 2 trims instead of 3) than for OBDI. The information on
my web page is derived from OBDI data. Regardless, the "correction factors" do
not include fuel trims for either OBDI or OBDII.

What I understand on this issue is that the OBDII *long-term* fuel trim is
part of the calculation for *basic* injection duration (driving time). The
OBDII long-term fuel trim is stored in memory and not erased when ignition is
turned off, but the OBDII short-term fuel trim is erased when the ignition
switch is off. Unlike OBDII, all three OBDI fuel trims are stored in memory
and are only erased when backup power is removed from the ECM (not just
ignition switch power), and none of the OBDI fuel trims are involved in basic
injector driving time calculation.

My statement should be more specific I guess: Our ECMs do not use *real time*
oxygen sensor information in open-loop mode. :)

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelinjection.htm

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <mjannusch@attbi.com>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question


> Track performance *should* not be affected
> because our ECM does not use the oxygen
> sensors during heavy load cruising or
> acceleration. It uses internal fuel maps
> instead.

I was under the impression that the short-term and long-
term fuel trims are calculated into the WOT maps as
well - even though the ECU isn't using the O2 sensor
feedback at WOT that it was still using the trims.  If
that's the case, then a cold O2 sensor will report lower
values and your car will run richer than it would with a
properly working sensor.

My '96 Avenger works that way too (with a Mitsu ECU) and
I actually have a bad O2 sensor heater.  It is
boggy/rich after long periods of idle where I can see
the O2 reading low (and not reacting quickly) and the
fuel trim on that bank gets bumped up and the car is
slower all-around until the trims get bumped closer to
normal with heating the sensor up by driving harder.

Seems to be supported by this from your Fuel Injection
Control page:

"In open-loop mode, the ECM is not using the oxygen
sensor information and instead relies on preset maps
stored in ROM (read-only memory). These maps use engine
speed and A/N (the amount of intake air into each
cylinder per engine revolution) to determine the basic
injector activation duration. *The correction factors
discussed above are applied to the map values*."

So, basically by your fuel trim values being off you
could see decreased performance from bad O2 sensor(s).

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4





***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 13:50:40 -0700
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Average Monthly Cost Question

Mike - 15k for a decent used one. You can have mine for 13k. It is in
perfect shape - just had the dealer do a 50k at 110,000 and the tires are
brand new. See it at http://www.andrewwoll.com/stealth003.jpg
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <M3000GTSL84@aol.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Average Monthly Cost Question


| Guys with VR-4-
|
| yes they are fast and amazing-how the 3/S was meant to be
|
| But Shaun said he wants it affordable. .
|
| And at $15,000 and up for a decent used one. . . twin turbo AWD AWS with a
| troublesome six speed and only decent gas milage on premium only may not
be
| the car for everyone-major funds are needed to keep it goin-and of course
you
| GOTTA make it faster. . .whats the point then?
|
| So do remember that the DOHC N/A has its own merrits- id rather be drivin
in
| that then uhhh. . a crustang or somthin
|
| -mike
| 97 SL
|
|
| ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:11:12 -0500
From: "Dave and Becky Trent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)

One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is the early opening of the
exhaust valve as part of the cam timing designed to provide combustion
pressure to the turbo.  This is referred to as blow down.  Early blow down
reduces efficiency, but yields better boost response.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)


> Hello all -
>
> I love the thought that goes into topics we toss around here.  I read
about
> things that don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.  thanks
all.
>
> I have been pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
> efficiency when crusing?  My thoughts are that the extra air supplied
during
> even small fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor gas mileage.
> What if the turbos were turned off?  Then the throttle would have to be
> tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum drag
> of the engine, which should equal higher efficiency.  On the other hand,
> isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air?  In other words, isn't the
> 'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>
> Ken Stanton
>
> ---Ken Stanton
> '91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
> 3Si Rochester (NY)
> FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
> AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
> Improved Precats
> HKS SSBOV
> Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
> 6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
> Aiwa MP3 Stereo
> 007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
> ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
> 98/99 COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
> Best (pathetic) time:
> 13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>

- -------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:10:11 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need EGT Data Please

> My EGT probe is installed in the downpipe, so I'm not getting
> manifold temps as you requested. However, here's what I normally see:

Even Better!  That's what I really wanted but everyone I've talked with
seems to have their EGT probe in the manifold.  I just thought that I'd take
the manifold data and subtract a couple hundred degrees and call it "within
the ballpark."

> Idling - 200C
Dang.  Too low for me :-(

> Cruising 60-70mph, 5th or 6th gear (unknown, I rarely use
> these two gears unless I'm on I-5 doing in excess of 120 mph)
> Cruising 60-70mph, 3rd or 4th gear - 400C

I'd assume cruising in 5th or 6th would result in lower EGTs than in 3rd or
4th.  400C is the absolute minimum of the acceptable range for "break-in."
Dang.

> WOT 55mph in 5th or 6th gear (again, I don't think I'd ever
> do this, I tend to keep my revs up between 4K and 7K under
> all conditions, which means using only the first four gears
> until I'm well above 100 mph)

Yeah, me too.  However, in the higher gears, you spend more time at WOT
without risking being face down with a knee in your back.

> Only under WOT with the boost cranked up to 15 psi or more do
> I ever see 700C temps. Again, this may be due to the location
> of my EGT probe, but this is only 100C away from the redline
> on my gauge so I don't like to see it head up there.

Yeah, from what I understand I don't want to see it spend too much time
above 800C in the manifold. Knock off 200C (Russ's guess) and you're in the
range of 600C max in the downpipe.  700C in the downpipe sounds like trouble
waiting to happen :-(  I won't be going there. 

> I can't  imagine how to keep 700C up for TEN minutes, unless you
> could keep it at WOT in 6th gear at top speed where you'd be
> fighting wind resistance.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.  Needless to say, no, I'm not gonna do
that because I like my drivers' license in one piece.

So it sounds like my attempt at break-in will consist of going to a nice
flat stretch of I-5 (speed limit 70mph) when there's little traffic and
going WOT from 55mph to 80ish in 5th, quickly slowing down to 55, and then
do it again... and again... and again... for 10 whole minutes.  Oh well...

- --Erik

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:15:24 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)

This is where cam gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
degrees. Doing this also increases HP but a Dave said reduces efficiency...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave and Becky Trent [SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11 PM
> To: Team3s
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>
> One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is the early opening of the
> exhaust valve as part of the cam timing designed to provide combustion
> pressure to the turbo.  This is referred to as blow down.  Early blow down
> reduces efficiency, but yields better boost response.
>
> Regards,
> DaveT/92TT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
> To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>
>
> > Hello all -
> >
> > I love the thought that goes into topics we toss around here.  I read
> about
> > things that don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.  thanks
> all.
> >
> > I have been pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
> > efficiency when crusing?  My thoughts are that the extra air supplied
> during
> > even small fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor gas
> mileage.
> > What if the turbos were turned off?  Then the throttle would have to be
> > tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum
> drag
> > of the engine, which should equal higher efficiency.  On the other hand,
> > isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air?  In other words, isn't
> the
> > 'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
> >
> > Ken Stanton
> >
> > ---Ken Stanton
> > '91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
> > 3Si Rochester (NY)
> > FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
> > AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
> > Improved Precats
> > HKS SSBOV
> > Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
> > 6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
> > Aiwa MP3 Stereo
> > 007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
> > ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
> > 98/99 COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
> > Best (pathetic) time:
> > 13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
> >
> >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Introducing NetZero Long Distance
> Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
> Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.


==============================================================================


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:00:00 -0700
From: Damon Rachell <damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)

Wouldn't you want to advance exhaust timing in this case to increase the
amount of blown down, i.e. increase the amount of volitiles in the
exhaust manifold (as in a 2-stage ignition which severely retards timing)?

Furman, Russell wrote:

> This is where cam gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
> degrees. Doing this also increases HP but a Dave said reduces efficiency...
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dave and Becky Trent [SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11 PM
>>To: Team3s
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>
>>One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is the early opening of the
>>exhaust valve as part of the cam timing designed to provide combustion
>>pressure to the turbo.  This is referred to as blow down.  Early blow down
>>reduces efficiency, but yields better boost response.
>>
>>Regards,
>>DaveT/92TT
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
>>To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
>>Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello all -
>>>
>>>I love the thought that goes into topics we toss around here.  I read
>>>
>>about
>>
>>>things that don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.  thanks
>>>
>>all.
>>
>>>I have been pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
>>>efficiency when crusing?  My thoughts are that the extra air supplied
>>>
>>during
>>
>>>even small fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor gas
>>>
>>mileage.
>>
>>>What if the turbos were turned off?  Then the throttle would have to be
>>>tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum
>>>
>>drag
>>
>>>of the engine, which should equal higher efficiency.  On the other hand,
>>>isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air?  In other words, isn't
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>>>
>>>Ken Stanton
>>>
>>>---Ken Stanton
>>>'91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
>>>3Si Rochester (NY)
>>>FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
>>>AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
>>>Improved Precats
>>>HKS SSBOV
>>>Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
>>>6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
>>>Aiwa MP3 Stereo
>>>007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>>>ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
>>>98/99 COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
>>>Best (pathetic) time:
>>>13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>>>
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Introducing NetZero Long Distance
>>Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
>>Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>
>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.
>
>
> ==============================================================================
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:45:21 -0700
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly

Use www.car-part.com and search for recyclers that sell the full assembly,
pre-tested. I got mine for $75. It works great. I never did get the high
pressure fuel line off though. I ended up using a couple hose clamps and a
wide heater hose to couple the two existing fuel lines together. I would
definetely not recommend this. I was simply too afraid to loosen my assembly
because my car is rusty down there and I don't want to break the main fuel
delivery line (the one that goes from the back of the car to the front). If
you do end up using my method, make sure you use wide gauge FUEL hose, not
heater hose. Heater hose will break down and harden when exposed to fuel.
Check out my web site below for more information.

Riyan Mynuddin
1993 stealth rt/tt

my ride:
www.advantedgecomputing.com/stllow/stealth.htm



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:20:18 -0500
From: "Dave and Becky Trent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch Slip Question

1 week before the gathering and low and behold, after being on jack stands
for the last four weeks during a timing belt change, I took my car out for a
test ride only to discover that the clutch appears to be slipping.  Prior to
this, the stock clutch has never shown the slightest sign of slipping even
after numerous track events.  Is it normal to crop up all of a sudden like
this?  More importantly, is it safe to take the 300mi. round trip to the
nat. gathering this weekend?  It's slipping under full throttle in 3rd gear
enough to rev 1000-1500 rpm faster than normal.  Otherwise, it seems normal.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT/13g's/17psi

- -------------------------------------------
Introducing NetZero Long Distance
Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:22:23 -0700
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch Slip Question

Clutches can be strange things.  Fine one day and going the next.  I put
about 2000 miles on a slipping clutch without it going totally out.  This
includes driving faster than normal to get to work on time.  My clutch was
only slipping in 5th gear at WOT and on hard launches.

What will happen is your clutch will continue to slip easier the more you
drive it.  Eventually, it will be at the point where you won't be able to
pull up a drive way.  Slipping in 3rd at WOT shows that it has progressed
pretty far.

300 miles should be ok if most of it is highway driving and you are not
trying to pass everyone on the road.  Don't do any WOT driving.  Once you
get back, I would replace it ASAP.

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:35:29 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)

Yeah now that I think about it a second time.......  I think you are correct
ahh boy talk about not looking before I leap

- -----Original Message-----
From: Damon Rachell [mailto:damonr@mefas.com]
Sent: Tue 8/6/2002 6:00 PM
To: Furman, Russell
Cc: Team3s
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)



Wouldn't you want to advance exhaust timing in this case to increase the
amount of blown down, i.e. increase the amount of volitiles in the
exhaust manifold (as in a 2-stage ignition which severely retards timing)?

Furman, Russell wrote:

> This is where cam gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
> degrees. Doing this also increases HP but a Dave said reduces
efficiency...
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dave and Becky Trent [SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11 PM
>>To:   Team3s
>>Subject:      Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>
>>One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is the early opening of the
>>exhaust valve as part of the cam timing designed to provide combustion
>>pressure to the turbo.  This is referred to as blow down.  Early blow down

>>reduces efficiency, but yields better boost response.
>>
>>Regards,
>>DaveT/92TT
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
>>To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
>>Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello all -
>>>
>>>I love the thought that goes into topics we toss around here.  I read
>>>
>>about
>>
>>>things that don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.  thanks
>>>
>>all.
>>
>>>I have been pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
>>>efficiency when crusing?  My thoughts are that the extra air supplied
>>>
>>during
>>
>>>even small fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor gas
>>>
>>mileage.
>>
>>>What if the turbos were turned off?  Then the throttle would have to be
>>>tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum
>>>
>>drag
>>
>>>of the engine, which should equal higher efficiency.  On the other hand,
>>>isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air?  In other words, isn't
>>>
>>the
>>
>>>'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>>>
>>>Ken Stanton
>>>
>>>---Ken Stanton
>>>'91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
>>>3Si Rochester (NY)
>>>FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
>>>AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
>>>Improved Precats
>>>HKS SSBOV
>>>Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
>>>6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
>>>Aiwa MP3 Stereo
>>>007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>>>ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
>>>98/99 COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
>>>Best (pathetic) time:
>>>13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
<http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>   ***
>>>
>>>
>>-------------------------------------------
>>Introducing NetZero Long Distance
>>Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
>>Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>
>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
<http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>   ***
>>
>
>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
> This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary,
privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s)
to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any
person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's
designees is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all
copies.

>
>
>
============================================================================
==
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
<http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>   ***
>
>



- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies.


==============================================================================


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:03:06 -0700
From: Damon Rachell <damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)

So that brings up a great question:  Where does the HP come from when
you advance the intake cams 1 deg and retard the exhaust 4?  Since this
seems to be the magic number, it sounds like a compromise in lag for HP.
   All in all, which is more important for better ETs?  broader torque
curve or higher HP?  Is it possible to get higher trap speeds while
getting lower ETs?

Furman, Russell wrote:

> Yeah now that I think about it a second time.......  I think you are correct
> ahh boy talk about not looking before I leap
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damon Rachell [mailto:damonr@mefas.com]
> Sent: Tue 8/6/2002 6:00 PM
> To: Furman, Russell
> Cc: Team3s
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (cruising)
>
>
>
> Wouldn't you want to advance exhaust timing in this case to increase the
> amount of blown down, i.e. increase the amount of volitiles in the
> exhaust manifold (as in a 2-stage ignition which severely retards timing)?
>
> Furman, Russell wrote:
>
>
>>This is where cam gears come in to play in retarding exhaust cam 2-3
>>degrees. Doing this also increases HP but a Dave said reduces
>>
> efficiency...
>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Dave and Becky Trent [SMTP:bdtrent@netzero.net]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:11 PM
>>>To:   Team3s
>>>Subject:      Re: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>>
>>>One aspect seldom disscused in turbo tuning is the early opening of the
>>>exhaust valve as part of the cam timing designed to provide combustion
>>>pressure to the turbo.  This is referred to as blow down.  Early blow down
>>>
>
>>>reduces efficiency, but yields better boost response.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>DaveT/92TT
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Ken Stanton" <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
>>>To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>>Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 5:46 PM
>>>Subject: Team3S: Turbo vs efficiency (crusing)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hello all -
>>>>
>>>>I love the thought that goes into topics we toss around here.  I read
>>>>
>>>>
>>>about
>>>
>>>
>>>>things that don't necessarily pertain to me, yet learn so much.  thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>all.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have been pondering for some time now, how does turbo affect fuel
>>>>efficiency when crusing?  My thoughts are that the extra air supplied
>>>>
>>>>
>>>during
>>>
>>>
>>>>even small fluctuations of the throttle results in very poor gas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>mileage.
>>>
>>>
>>>>What if the turbos were turned off?  Then the throttle would have to be
>>>>tilted open more to get the needed air, thereby decreasing the vacuum
>>>>
>>>>
>>>drag
>>>
>>>
>>>>of the engine, which should equal higher efficiency.  On the other hand,
>>>>isn't turbo a very efficient way to supply air?  In other words, isn't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>>'forced' air greatly reducing the vacuum drag naturally?
>>>>
>>>>Ken Stanton
>>>>
>>>>---Ken Stanton
>>>>'91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
>>>>3Si Rochester (NY)
>>>>FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
>>>>AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky Injection
>>>>Improved Precats
>>>>HKS SSBOV
>>>>Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight 17"
>>>>6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
>>>>Aiwa MP3 Stereo
>>>>007KEN spark plug plate, license plates
>>>>ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
>>>>98/99 COOLANT TANK (6/26/02)
>>>>Best (pathetic) time:
>>>>13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
>>>>
> <http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>   ***
>
>>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------
>>>Introducing NetZero Long Distance
>>>Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month!
>>>Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com
>>>
>>>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
>>>
> <http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm>   ***
>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:07:23 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

I finally found what I consider a reasonable explanation for the improvement
in detonation resistance when injecting propane into the intake.

I've been told propane is 140 octane --- it's not, it's 104 to 110.
I've been told that it's -60º --- it may be at the vapor/liquid interface but it's
not after going down a 10 foot rubber hose. If used continuously the temp
will drop, but in reality you use the propane for a few seconds at a time.
In addition the amount of propane is very small with respect to the air charge.

The intake charge on a gasoline engine is not homogeneous --- when fuel is
injected into air charge some of it vaporizes and forms a vapor while some
remains in droplet form. This results in an uneven mixture , which in turn results
in uneven burning which can cause detonation when the unburned end gasses
ignite as a result of pressure and heat. The uncontrolled ignition causes extreme
pressure peaks known as detonation. Engine damage may be the end result.

Modern engines are designed to stir the air/fuel charge by using injectors that
generate small droplets [ I don't know why they don't use much higher pressure ],
Intakes that produce turbulence and piston/head designs with squish areas that
provide additional turbulence to enhance mixing. They also use quench areas that
cool the end gasses to help eliminate the self ignition of unburned fuel. Even with
all these mixing operations the charges remains uneven and prone to flame fronts
that do not burn evenly.

The injection of propane, a completely homogeneous gas, mixes with the non-
homogeneous air/gas charge and improves the burn characteristics and
therefore reduces detonation caused by unburned end gasses. The end result
is an engine less prone to damaging detonation.

Objections or comments anyone ???

Jim Berry



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:27:56 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Saner AWD Front Anti-Sway Bar Installation Guide and Review

As promised, here it is.

http://www.team3s.com/~egross/3000GT/FSwB/FSwB.html


Hopefully no one else will enter this blind, not knowing what they signed up
for.  I know having instructions would have cut a significant amount of time
off of my installation :-)

A big thanks to all (you know who you are) who offered suggestions
during/after my installation to help address issues and preserve my sanity!

- --Erik
'95 VR-4 with Front Saner Anti-sway Bar
Rear Bar going in "soon"

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:15:02 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: propane injection explained ???

I have made my own propane setup which I planned to market, but am still
testing. I think that my system and the best out there thus far, but I am
keeping it under wraps until I am 100% satisfied with it and till I can get
a copyright to the design. I have been using it for about a month with
awesome results. The system currently on my car is mounted under the hood
for many reasons, safety being one of them. One thing I can say is that I
did not expect nearly as much of an improvement form it as I have had. I did
some math and the propane under boost would make up less than 20% of the
total fuel going into the engine. Having as the octane ratings were so
close, 92 and 104 I did not expect a big difference, but reading some of the
knock sensor outputs before and after I am simply stunned. There is no more
knock, period! I do not know the science behind it, but it works and that's
all there is to it.

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of fastmax
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:07 PM
To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: propane injection explained ???


I finally found what I consider a reasonable explanation for the improvement
in detonation resistance when injecting propane into the intake.

I've been told propane is 140 octane --- it's not, it's 104 to 110.
I've been told that it's -60º --- it may be at the vapor/liquid interface
but it's
not after going down a 10 foot rubber hose. If used continuously the temp
will drop, but in reality you use the propane for a few seconds at a time.
In addition the amount of propane is very small with respect to the air
charge.

The intake charge on a gasoline engine is not homogeneous --- when fuel is
injected into air charge some of it vaporizes and forms a vapor while some
remains in droplet form. This results in an uneven mixture , which in turn
results
in uneven burning which can cause detonation when the unburned end gasses
ignite as a result of pressure and heat. The uncontrolled ignition causes
extreme
pressure peaks known as detonation. Engine damage may be the end result.

Modern engines are designed to stir the air/fuel charge by using injectors
that
generate small droplets [ I don't know why they don't use much higher
pressure ],
Intakes that produce turbulence and piston/head designs with squish areas
that
provide additional turbulence to enhance mixing. They also use quench areas
that
cool the end gasses to help eliminate the self ignition of unburned fuel.
Even with
all these mixing operations the charges remains uneven and prone to flame
fronts
that do not burn evenly.

The injection of propane, a completely homogeneous gas, mixes with the non-
homogeneous air/gas charge and improves the burn characteristics and
therefore reduces detonation caused by unburned end gasses. The end result
is an engine less prone to damaging detonation.

Objections or comments anyone ???

Jim Berry



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 01:16:38 -0700
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pulling Hair out over Fuel Pump Assembly

Joshua-

You're welcome. Good luck. Remember--don't be too hard on fuel delivery
lines. Our cars are expensive toys. If you're unsure then make sure you read
and reread the Stealth316 website and/or check with your local shop before
loosen those hoses. You may want to get your local shop to do the process
for you if they will assume liability.

Riyan
1993 stealth rt/tt

my ride:
www.advantedgecomputing.com/stllow/stealth.htm

- ---------------------cut--------------------------->

Yo man, THANK YOU SO MUCH, for that link.

- ---------------------cut--------------------------->



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:22:08 +0200
From: "howard smith" <darkstar4000h@msn.com>
Subject: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4

Hello everyone this is my 1st post to the list after joining a few days
back and I must say good job guys.  To my question at hand I am Shipping
my 1993 3000 GT VR4 from the State's to Germany (which I have been
working in Germany for 3 years now. retired) I was thinking the only
thing that my car should need is a fog light for the back of the car.
But other then that I should not have to make any other change's to the
car.  I have been asking around but no one can tell me for sure, any
input would be great!!



Thanks a lot for the web site!!!

Howard Smith

1993  Gray 3000GT VR4   

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 04:09:52 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4

Foglight? For the back? Am I missing something here? Like a backup light?

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of howard smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:22 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4


Hello everyone this is my 1st post to the list after joining a few days
back and I must say good job guys.  To my question at hand I am Shipping
my 1993 3000 GT VR4 from the State's to Germany (which I have been
working in Germany for 3 years now. retired) I was thinking the only
thing that my car should need is a fog light for the back of the car.
But other then that I should not have to make any other change's to the
car.  I have been asking around but no one can tell me for sure, any
input would be great!!



Thanks a lot for the web site!!!

Howard Smith

1993  Gray 3000GT VR4   

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:19:24 +0200
From: "howard smith" <darkstar4000h@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4

Yes I was told that in some parts of Germany you must have a rear fog
light.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Tigran Varosyan
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:10 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4

Foglight? For the back? Am I missing something here? Like a backup
light?

Tyson



- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of howard smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:22 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4


Hello everyone this is my 1st post to the list after joining a few days
back and I must say good job guys.  To my question at hand I am Shipping
my 1993 3000 GT VR4 from the State's to Germany (which I have been
working in Germany for 3 years now. retired) I was thinking the only
thing that my car should need is a fog light for the back of the car.
But other then that I should not have to make any other change's to the
car.  I have been asking around but no one can tell me for sure, any
input would be great!!



Thanks a lot for the web site!!!

Howard Smith

1993  Gray 3000GT VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:25:31 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: American 3000 GT VR4

Jim Matthews, http://www.the-matthews.com, can tell you since he
recently moved his Stealth from Germany to England.

In addition - you can also try removing all the legal emissions stuff
that the US has on it like a catalytic converter, pre-cats, and stuff
like that.  I don't know how nice the German folk are to cars removing
those things but when importing a car from Europe to the States it
requires all sorts of exhaust add-ons to be legal.

The fog light in the back is called something else but it is used both
in heavy fog so they do not have 100+ car pile-ups on the Autobahn as
well as when parking.  You park against the street and the light is on
the rear driver's corner so that cars will not hit you as you are
parked.  If you drive on the left-side (England) then this light would
be on the Passenger side rear corner.

Don't forget about the side marker lights on the front quarter panels.

Don't forget about headlight washers.

Look at Roger Gerl's site, www.rtec.ch, for some of these items (like
the headlight washer tank).

I'm thinking the oil and fuel system will be fine but make sure you do
not use Leaded fuel or else remove the O2 sensors.  They should have
Unleaded over there but just watch that for a little bit.

Welcome to the list and sorry to see a car leave but good job taking it
over.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: howard smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 07:19

Yes I was told that in some parts of Germany you must have a rear fog
light.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #918
***************************************