Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Saturday, July 6
2002 Volume 01 : Number
890
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Jul 2002 03:12:20 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Filling the radiator
Rich, Steve has a 1st gen with a 2nd gen
motor and a fresh radiator.
Straight water has a higher heat capacity
than a 50/50 antifreeze mix,
therefore the more water - the better. The
water wetter goes a step beyond
that.
I have never heard about head
gaskets rusting. If they are MLS gaskets,
they are usually made of some high
chrome content spring steel, which makes
it stainless. The problems that I
heard of with running straight water is
rusting aluminum water jacket (which
makes it less heat conductive) and no
water pump seal lubrication that is
provided by the antifreeze.
I do not know if the overheating problem on
the 2nd gen is normal or not. I
would think that if the Mitsu engineers had
to change something to reduce
cooling, they would have exhaustively tested
their car somewhere is Arizona
or something. PPE sells those upgraded
radiators for high-powered cars. A
larger radiator also helps when you buy
their FMIC.
Philip
At 02:40 7/5/2002,
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
wrote:
>Thanks, Steve.
>As to the water, I didn't have much choice,
being trackside. Water was all
>I had.
>I see that you have a 1st
gen, which don't seem to have cooling
problems.
>
>Rich
>
>At 05:09 PM 7/5/02 +1200, you
wrote:
> >Water?
> >
> >Never use just water, you'll
end up with a rusted headgasket. I always use
> >proper coolant and
when I need to top up I use antifreeze. My car is a 93,
> >2nd gen
engine, like I said before I've never had an overheating problem but
>
>when the cambelt was changed I got the radiator rebuilt with a new
core.
> >
> >Steve
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Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 02:16:41
-0500
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Filling the radiator
>Philip wrote:
>I do not know
if the overheating problem on the 2nd gen is normal or not. I
>would
think that if the Mitsu engineers had to change something to reduce
>cooling, they would have exhaustively tested their car somewhere is
Arizona
>or something.
Yeah, but with stock boost.
My car
will run all day at 100+ deg under stock boost. At 15 psi, it's another
story.
PPE sells those upgraded radiators for high-powered cars. A
>larger radiator also helps when you buy their FMIC.
I am
considering the aluminum radiator. First, I want to find out if that's the only
solution.
Thanks.
Rich
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Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 03:24:58
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Filling the radiator
At 03:16 7/5/2002,
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
wrote:
>I am considering the aluminum radiator. First, I want to find out
if
>that's the only solution.
I am still wondering if a big hole
in the back of the hood would make
things better or worse. Flash was talking
about a string test, but then
someone went ahead and did that and the air
was coming out from under the
hood, not in.
Philip
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Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:43:54
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Filling the radiator
Hey now. The string test worked on my
car.
But now I'm set with temperature probes and can remove that seal at
the
firewall and see if the probe directly in front of it has hotter
air
blowing over it (from the rear turbo) or colder air getting blown
over
it (from the back of the hood).
My hunch tells me that it will
get the cooler air from the back of the
hood.
And I have a
response to a private email about why water and not
antifreeze but am waiting
for their permission to post their email to
the list.
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Philip V.
Glazatov
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 03:25
To:
team3S@team3s.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
Filling the radiator
At 03:16 7/5/2002,
merritt@cedar-rapids.net
wrote:
>I am considering the aluminum radiator. First, I want to find out
if
>that's the only solution.
I am still wondering if a big hole in
the back of the hood would make
things better or worse. Flash was talking
about a string test, but then
someone went ahead and did that and the air
was coming out from under
the
hood, not
in.
Philip
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:44:48
+1200
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Now Catch Can, was HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe
Some of the
statements made on the krank vent thread are a bit confusing.
.
Conventional PCV valves use reed, flapper, umbrella, ball-check,
springs,
etc., to close and restrain the valve. These valves soon fatigue and
fail as
they get cycled 50 to 100 times a second at 3000 RPM plus
They
don't get cycled, the pcv valve is closed under high manifold vacuum,
open at
low vacuum and closed under boost.
This thing was designed for a V twin.
In that engine configuration the
crankcase pressure fluctuates as the pistons
go up and down. Not so with a
4, 6 or 8 cylinder.
. WHEN ON BOOST,
PRESSURE ENTERS THE CRANK CASE, MAINLY THRU THE PCV VALVE,
BECAUSE THE PCV
VALVE CAN'T HOLD THE BOOST PRESSURE.
Again I'll have to disagree with
this.It's only a very small valve and if it
did leak a bit the pressure would
go straight out the other hose.
I had no problems with oil consumption on my
car until I got forged pistons
and total seal rings. The real problem seems
to be that total seal rings are
hard to bed in properly. My car blows smoke
all the time driving slowly but
when I take it out on the track and thrash it
as hard as I can it stops
smoking. It never overheats either.
Nobody
has yet explained why we build up pressure in the crankcase when the
1/2 inch
hose goes straight to atmospheric pressure at the MAS. Maybe on
some cars
this gets blocked.
Maybe what is really happening is that we have a lot
of blowby, gases and
oil droplets going into the intake via the larger pipe,
burned in the engine
producing smoke. maybe all we really have to do is fit a
catch can to stop
the oil and no more smoke.
Maybe Roger can give us a
true explanation as to how this thing works. Until
then as far as I am
concerned it's still BS.
Steve
> Dude, the stock PCV valve will
go bad again when running more than 1 bars
> of boost. Not for everyone
but many have been reported the thing bad. So
> you have several of them
at home do you ? With the different size of the
> valves of the KrankVents
the possible crankcase pressure is getting
> reduced
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:38:50
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Filling the radiator
Original private message to me posted with
permission.
You are correct that antifreeze may raise the boiling point
but
antifreeze that is for deep Alaskan winters where it does not
reach
above -20 F is no good. I don't know what the difference is
from
ethylene glycol or the others as far as raising or lowering the
boiling
point but it isn't so much for the temp control as for what happens
when
water spills vs. antifreeze spilling on a track. Some antifreeze
goes
as high as 276 F but then who is going to have a stock temp gauge
that
goes above 225 F before hitting the red zone or a
programmable
thermostat to tell it to stay shut longer or open
earlier?
Using straight water or a mixture of water plus water wetter at
the
track prevents any further safety issues on the track or in the
pits
from the spilling of antifreeze from a car. Imagine you are behind
a
car that totally loses the radiator hose on their car. You then
get
antifreeze splashed all over your windshield and your tires are
coated
in the slippery stuff which then causes you to slide off the track
and
into a tire barrier. The guy behind you doesn't see the warning
flag in
time and plows into you.
Having just water means the track is
not as dangerous and
dries/evaporates much quicker. Same thing in the
pits when the car sits
and gurgles out antifreeze. One, it looks
immature to have your car
spitting up like this. Two, if it is water
then it is no big deal and
you can quietly mention it is your brake cooling
or water injection
overflow tank or something and nobody will be the
wiser.
The two links below give some info from the web. The Water
Wetter link
shows a chart where water plus water wetter cools faster than a
50/50
mix of water wetter or even 100% glycol. But even if this were a
few
seconds longer than antifreeze I would still recommend water plus
water
wetter for track use just because antifreeze is no fun for track
spills.
Water
Wetter
http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm
"Water has twice the heat transfer capability when
compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water.
Most passenger automobiles have a cooling system
designed to reject sufficient heat under normal
operating
conditions using a 50/50 glycol solution
in water.
However, in racing applications, the use
of water and
WaterWetterR will enable the use of
smaller radiator
systems, which means less frontal
drag, and it will
also reduce cylinder head
temperatures, even when compared
to water alone,
which means more spark advance may be used
to
improve engine torque."
Antifreeze
http://www.nsf.gov/nstw_questions/chem/quest021.htm
"Antifreeze is a chemical substance that is added
to
a liquid to lower its freezing point. It
prevents the
freezing of the coolants used in
airplane, automobile,
and tractor engines, in
refrigeration liquids, and in
snow-melting and
deicing agents. The ideal antifreeze
should be
chemically stable, be miscible in the coolant,
have
low viscosity and electrical conductivity, and a
high boiling point, be noncorrosive, and have good heat
transfer properties. The most widely used
antifreeze
materials in automotive engines today
are methyl alcohol,
ethyl alcohol, and ethylene
glycol; most of them contain
a phosphate, nitrate,
or other anticorrosive agent.
When water is mixed with antifreeze, both the
characteristics, freezing and boiling points, are
changed. The boiling point for water will now be
higher
because of the antifreeze. This is useful
when driving
a car in extreme temperatures since
the engine will not
overheat as quickly if no
antifreeze was present."
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
M3000GTSL84@aol.comSent: Friday, July
05, 2002 01:20
Flash-
I humbly ask why u shouldnt use
antifreeze/coolant, just water on a
track
3000GT? i always thought that
the coolant raises the boiling point of
water.
Im just really
curious-thanx
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 02:12:57
-0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Filling the radiator
>I don't know what the difference is
from
>ethylene glycol or the others as far as raising or lowering the
boiling
>point but it isn't so much for the temp control as for what
happens when
>water spills vs. antifreeze spilling on a
track.
Flash, tell that person, whose email you quoted
<<<deleted>>>..BS..<<<deleted>>><<<deleted>>>
BS<<<deleted>>><<<deleted>>>BS<<<deleted>>><<<deleted>>>
Grrrrrr....
If we were concerned about the safety of other cars on the
track enough to
choose different fluids, we would have been running
sunflower oil in our
engines. It dries out faster than the
synthetic.
Here is the only part of the quoted email worth reading (twice
if necessary).
> "Water has twice the
heat transfer capability when
> compared to
50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water.
>
Most passenger automobiles have a cooling
system
> designed to reject sufficient heat
under normal operating
> conditions using a
50/50 glycol solution in water.
> However,
in racing applications, the use of water
and
> WaterWetterR will enable the use of
smaller radiator
> systems, which means less
frontal drag, and it will
> also reduce
cylinder head temperatures, even when
compared
> to water alone, which means more
spark advance may be used
> to improve
engine torque."
The original question was why water is better for racing
than antifreeze.
Because water transfers heat better than antifreeze. Yes,
it boils at a
lower temperature, but hopefully with a better heat transfer
and a correct
radiator size we won't get anywhere close to boiling. If the
cooling system
is inadequate, the car will boil anyway, regardless of a few
degree
difference in the boiling point.
Philip
***
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:45:50
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Proper coolant for racing (was: Filling the radiator)
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
-
------------------snip---------------->
> The original question was why
water is better for racing than antifreeze.
Because water transfers heat
better than antifreeze. Yes, it boils at a lower
temperature, but hopefully
with a better heat transfer and a correct radiator
size we won't get anywhere
close to boiling. If the cooling system is
inadequate, the car will boil
anyway, regardless of a few degree
difference in the boiling
point.
> Philip
-
----------------------------------------->
That's true, but it's only
a partial answer - the rest was covered in a
previous post forwarded by
Flash... The main reason for not using anti-freeze
at the track is that
you endanger the other drivers and yourself. It's
slippery on the track
and can cause an accident, and when it hits a hot
surface it smokes all over
the place. Tracks are now fining people who leak
gasoline or glycol,
since both damage asphalt and cause yellow flags (they
have to clean it up
before continuing a race). If they notice either gas or
glycol leaking
from your car, you're done for the day. That's IF they will
even let
you on the track
with antifreeze. Many times you will be asked about it
at the tech
inspection. Besides the frowns from the experienced racers
if you say you're
running with antifreeze, in advanced groups, they won't
even let you on the
track unless you're running a water wetter mixture.
In the novice groups,
with limited passing and less chance of accidents, they
usually don't hassle
you. A good flush routine once or twice a year
will protect you from
corrosion, or you can just run antifreeze when you're
not racing. But always
use water wetter at the track.
BTW, I
guess overheating when racing is more of a "turbo problem", since we've
run
our 94 Stealth NT in up to six back-to-back runs of 20 minutes each with
no
problem. That's two full hours at 120 degree track temps - and since
we're
underpowered for the advanced groups, we run the whole time at
redline. Our
temp gauge barely moves above normal, even when the tires
and brakes are
smoking.
Best,
Forrest
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End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#890
***************************************