Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Wednesday, July 3 2002    Volume 01 : Number 888

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Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:53:39 -0600
From: "Moe Prasad" <mprasad01@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need help desperately with turbos and dealership

Ask anyone from CO about my fight with the warranty company over my engine.
They declined me 3 times and then I followed the steps below and a lot of
help from Jeff Lucius and I won. I never went to court, I never got a
lawyer. I just followed the steps below. I was told by the owner of the
warranty company that he will cover my new engine over his dead body. I
guess he is now dead.

This information is taken from www.bendover.com (The way I found this site
three years ago was by sitting in my office at 2:00am. I was so pissed that
I was declined three times by the warranty company, that I said to my self,
"how far do I have to Bend Over to get my car fixed" I then thought to
myself that that is a pretty cool URL and check to see if someone owned it.
The below is what I found at the site. The DJ(Troubleshooter)'s name is Ben
Dover. I thought this was fate and took it to heart and followed the 6
commandments. Yes, I have thanked Mr. Dover by email and letter a few times)

SIX STEPS TO SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINING
Here's SIX STEPS TO SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINING that every consumer can benefit
from when they think they've been wronged by a company of any size:

1: Always Paper Your Trail: If you've got a gripe, put it in writing and
document your conversations, correspondence, etc. with the company

2: Dover's Rule: Always get Names, Faces, Numbers & Places. Take notes!
You're not always able to get people to give you their name, especially in
an adversarial situation. Names: Always be sure to ask for the person you're
dealing with's name and title...and ask them their full name and title EARLY
and before anything gets heated/adversarial. Faces: If they won't give it
up, write down a description [if you're face-to-face] of the person you're
dealing with. Numbers: If they won't give up any information, write down
specific notes that you'll understand and be able to interpret later if
necessary. Numbers can include the exact time your conversation started, the
number you called, the length of the phone call. Places: Always note where
the event occurred, and of course, day/date/time of the transaction in
question. If you're calling a company, ask the person that answers the phone
what city/state they're located in; note the day/date/time of your call.

3: Pull the Trigger Early: If you don't get immediate satisfaction on a
local level or toll-free number early, then quit wasting your time and move
up the management ladder swiftly! Use the Internet to locate their home/main
office, and even go to their website to find out the name of the Chairman of
the Board and President of the company, and send them a Certified Letter.

4: Clearly Define What You Want To Make You Happy: Don't just
whine...DEFINE! Explain your situation and how you felt you were wronged,
but then CLEARLY DEFINE what it will take to make you happy. Give the
company an idea of what it's going to take to make you happy and start over
with a clean slate. You might be surprised at how quickly they come around
when you clearly state a remedy to their lapse in customer service.

5: ":cc" the Media!: When you fire out your letters, be sure to cc: (the old
term used to note who is getting a copy of your letter) a list of
people/organizations on your side, such as the Texas Attorney General's
Office, the Federal Trade Commission, and of course, local media resources
like yours truly, Benjamin Dover.

6: NEVER Give Up! NEVER take no for an answer, unless and until you're told
by the top dogs of the company you're demanding satisfaction from to buzz
off and even then, don't give up until you talk to an expert (like an
consumer-oriented attorney or someone like Benjamin Dover) that can advise
you on where you stand and if you're dealing from a position of strength or
weakness.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: <stealth@starnet.net>; <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: Team3S: Need help desperately with turbos and dealership

> Ok, some of you may remember my SAGA with problems with my turbo's after
> KELLY MITSUBISHI in ALLENTOWN Pennsylvania, installed a new
> transmission. So in the process of installing the transmission they
> broke the downpipe and o2 sensor which they replaced under warranty even
> though the car is out. So I am driving the car and the most boost I see
> is .34 kg/cm2 which is VERY low, stock should be .65 kg/cm2. I removed
> the vacuum hose from the wastegate solenoid and could only get .45
> kg/cm2 when it should be 1.00 kg/cm2 when both turbo's are working. The
> car has a K&N FIPK and Greddy Type S bov. I took the car back to Kelly
> and they said they would look over it. They had it for several days and
> called back saying they checked both turbos and they both were perfectly
> fine. (They said they just disconnected the hoses coming into them and
> turns the fins by hand) but found a vacuum hose that was on wrong and
> they would chalk it up to them having done it wrong when they did the
> trans. I drove the car and I am only seeing .45 kg/cm2 of boost. I look
> under the hood and GUESS what KELLY MITSUBISHI did? They capped the
> wastegate actuator solenoid nipple where the vacuum line comes in and
> left the vacuum hose sit out!!! So I called them and said I wanted the
> manager and technician to see this. I took pictures and everything
> beforehand. I then went and showed the manager, how the technician
> couldn't even follow a simple diagram on the hood of the car for the
> vacuum lines. The technician admitted to do it and said it was the only
> way to get more boost because of all the shit I had done to the car! I
> told them that if both turbo's were working that would have caused the
> car to knock! I then asked the tech is he had checked both turbo's and
> he couldn't even look me in the face and tell me yes. They told me to
> sue them and get off their property.
>
> So I need to know of a GREAT turbocharged engine mechanic around
> the Pottstown, Reading, and Allentown area in Pennsylvania. The engine
> has a horrible tap now that it didn't before. I was thinking of taking
> it down to Extreme Motorsports, but I have never dealt with them nor
> known anyone who has. Are they any good? Any better on the east coast?
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to handle it? I plan on
> talking with Mitsubishi, The Better Business Bureau, and my lawyer
> tomorrow . Hopefully also a turbo shop that someone recommends or
> extreme. Thanks for all of your time and assistance and PLEASE steer
> clear of Kelly Mitsubishi in Allentown Pa.
>
> Joshua Prince

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:53:13 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Team3S: 15G progress and rear EGT probe installation

Hi all,

As I wrote before, I am in the process of swapping the turbos. Working
couple hours a day, I finally removed the rear turbo. I also managed
somehow to remove the rear pre-cat without disassembling half of the car. I
hope I have not made a deadly mistake and would be able to install it back
(after I gut it). I know, the more things I remove the harder it will be to
put them back in. The rear turbo is a major PITA in the a$$. I had to
remove couple of the heat shield bolts there, turning them less than 1/12
revolution at a time while flipping between three wrenches. Now, as Jeff W.
said, the easy part is finished. The assembly will start soon.

Now the EGT probe QUESTION: I will be installing two EGT probes. It is
better to install the rear one from the top of the manifold or from the
bottom? I think I could do it either way. Any preferences? And what is the
preferred way of keeping the chips out of the manifold? I heard about
placing a magnet there, and I think I could stuff a rag there as well.

I will see if I could remove that rear exhaust manifold. After all that I
have already done it might be a cakewalk.

And to my local Michigan guys, could I borrow a tool to gut the cats from
someone? What does this tool looks like?

Philip

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:02:09 -0400
From: "stealth@quixnet.net" <stealth@quixnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch Question

Greetings all,

A couple months ago, you folks helped diagnose a clutch problem as a blown slave cylinder. That's been replaced, as well as the actual clutch itself, and all is *almost* well.

When the car is cold in the morning, I get full normal clutch pedal resistance throughout its travel. But after a few minutes of driving, and for the rest of the day thereafter, the pedal resistance changes to very light at the top and very heavy at the bottom of its travel. It's almost painful on my foot.

I've checked for leakage from the master cylinder, don't see any in the engine compartment or on my carpet. Is this simply a matter of bleeding the clutch and replacing the fluid?

Thanks for your help.

93 Stealth ES

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:57:59 -0400
From: "Andre Cerri" <cerri@intersystems.com>
Subject: Team3S: Filters

Any comments on K&N, Air Mass etc for a 92 3000GT SL? The various solutions
on Ebay or the group buy at
http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88186&highlight=filter

Anything to avoid, prices to pay, pros and cons?

Thx

Andre

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 12:51:51 +0000
From: "Marc Gauthier" <gogauthier@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

Hey Ken,
Most likely it’s your PVC!
You should remove the hose between the 2 head on the driver side, run 1 hose
from each head in to a can and vent that can with a small air filter.
(breather Tank)
Here a link:
http://store.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/SUM-G1504.jpg
This set-up, will let your crankcase bread and prevent your turbo from
leaking!

Marc
Red 92 TT, gutted pre-cats, 6 speeds conversion, AVC-R, K&N air charger.
Best time: 13.0@103mph

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:10:45 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pearl white R/T bumper...

>
>PS- what single muffler systems (custom or pre-fabbed) do you guys have
>and what do you like? I don't like loud, just great sounding.

Xelerator. It's straight through, so no back pressure at all.
With the cats gone, it'll be loud.
It's about as loud as a Borla, but not as deep and resonant-- It has a snarly sound. I like it.

My shop fabbed the system by cutting off the stock pipe just ahead of the rear axle, then welded two 45-deg elbows together. It replaces 40 lb of complex stock exhaust with 10 lb or so of straight through pipe and muffler. Total cost: less than $200.

Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 02:00:29 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: A day at the races

Good news and bad after our day at Midamerica Mototplex near Council Bluff, Iowa.

For a mere $50 per driver, we had the entire place to ourselves. 11 cars from Cedar Rapids went over for the day, including a Ferrari 328, Z06, Porsche TT AWD, 600 hp Camaro, a beater project Camaro, GTi, Impala SS, Pontiac Trans-Am twin turbo, Contour SVT, BMW 325, and my VR4. We arrived about noon, set up in the paddock, and started recce runs and parade laps (we had several rookies) at about 1:00 pm.

First good news: My brake blower system WORKS! I cobbled up a system that employs bilge blowers mounted on the lower control arms, at the rear. Each one points directly at the rotor and blows continously. A switch in the engine compartment turns them on and off (hey, it's just a "proof of concept" project. I'll make it pretty in my copious free time, and bring the switch inside). They are noisy little buggers, but they do the trick. No fade, no boiled fluid, no warped rotors, and I didn't have to use water injection or ductwork. I am running Panther Plus XP pads from Carbotech -- they are supposed to last a long time. These are NOT street pads, no matter what Carbotech says (Can you say, "squeak, squak, screeeee"?), but they are a pretty good race pad.

My brake system includes: Porsche Big Red calipers, SS lines, bilge blowers, Carbotech Panther Plus XP pads, dust plates removed, Motul 600 fluid, SpeedBleeders, and cyrogenically treated stock rotors. Works pretty good, finally.

Got the SpeedBleeders at O'Riley's auto parts. $12 for two.

Second good news: I put in 10 gallons of 110 octane leaded racing fuel ($2.65/gal here in Cedar Rapids, $5/gal at the track) and cranked the boost to 15 psi on the DSBC. With this, I was able to humble my local nemesis (the twin-turbo Porsche AWD). I flat ran that sucker down and got so close I almost spelled Mitsubishi backwards all over his rear bumper. He still pulled me down the front straight going into 1, but not by much. I was all over him again by turn 3. He turned off into the pits before I could pass his butt. But I GOT him!

I did not catch my other nemesis, the rich guy in his Z06. However, I was closing on him at about a second a lap, just steadily reeling him in. So we CAN run with TT Porsches and Z06s -- just takes a little boost and brakes that don't fade.

Now the bad news: whilst running down the Z06, I looked at the temp gage, and it was pegged. It had been overheating earlier, but slowing down and putting the boost back to stock cured it in less than a lap, so I had been dealing with the problem all day. This time, though, I was so caught up in the pursuit, I wasn't watching the gauge. I don't know how long it had been that pegged, but I had to peel off to the pits and tend to it. It was steaming and puking and gurgling, and spelled the end of my day. I don't know the proper secret sequence for refilling our radiator, but it takes about eight days to fill it via the overflow container. I popped the radiator cap (after it had cooled, of course), and filled the sucker there, but it took about four fillings of the overflow container before the cooling system decided it was going to be OK about all this. I cruised home 265 miles with a hairy eyeball on the cooling system all the way.

Also, for some strange reason, I seem to have fried my Anti-Lock system. The light is on in the middle of the dash, and the pump runs continuously, even when the engine is off. I finally had to pull the circuit breaker to shut off the pump. You don't suppose there is a relationship between overheating and the ABS do you?

A fun day at the track.
Wish I really was a ROWG -- I'd do this big time.

Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:46:21 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: A day at the races

Rich very nice about those targets ;)     I am going to recommend the PPE
radiator again also run a 60% water to 40% coolant mix and a bottle of water
wetter. Those changes/upgrades should more than do the trick.

As for the brake blowers please take some pics this might be a good idea for
me with my 1G to 2G brake upgrade project.....

And what the hell is ROWG?

Russ F
CT
93 VR-4 aka The Ghost   (Still under the Knife)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: merritt@cedar-rapids.net [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:00 AM
> To: 3sracers@speedtoys.com; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: A day at the races
<Snip> .

> Second good news: I put in 10 gallons of 110 octane leaded racing fuel
> ($2.65/gal here in Cedar Rapids, $5/gal at the track) and cranked the
> boost to 15 psi on the DSBC. With this, I was able to humble my local
> nemesis (the twin-turbo Porsche AWD). I flat ran that sucker down and got
> so close I almost spelled Mitsubishi backwards all over his rear bumper.
> He still pulled me down the front straight going into 1, but not by much.
> I was all over him again by turn 3. He turned off into the pits before I
> could pass his butt. But I GOT him!
>
> I did not catch my other nemesis, the rich guy in his Z06. However, I was
> closing on him at about a second a lap, just steadily reeling him in. So
> we CAN run with TT Porsches and Z06s -- just takes a little boost and
> brakes that don't fade.
>
> I wasn't watching the gauge. I don't know how long it had been that
> pegged, but I had to peel off to the pits and tend to it. It was steaming
> and puking and gurgling, and spelled the end of my day. I don't know the
> proper secret sequence for refilling our radiator, but it takes about
> eight days to fill it via the overflow container. I popped the radiator
> cap (after it had cooled, of course), and filled the sucker there, but it
> took about four fillings of the overflow container before the cooling
> system decided it was going to be OK about all this. I cruised home 265
> miles with a hairy eyeball on the cooling system all the way.
>
> Also, for some strange reason, I seem to have fried my Anti-Lock system.
> The light is on in the middle of the dash, and the pump runs continuously,
> even when the engine is off. I finally had to pull the circuit breaker to
> shut off the pump. You don't suppose there is a relationship between
> overheating and the ABS do you?
>
> Wish I really was a ROWG -- I'd do this big time.
>
> Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:07:02 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: Team3S: National Gathering

This should be interesting.

There are 59 cars signed up for the drags so far.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> NEW INFO TODAY!
> GT Pro just announced they are bringing their Project Drag Pro car. Goal
> is
> 1000hp, and GT Pro CAN back that up. They just posted that they WILL be
> here
> FOR SURE (they've already paid, too!) and they WILL be running the car.
> You
> can't miss this! They will also be bringing a "secret" car (non 3/S but
> very
> exciting car). Unveiling will be Thursday night at the Ramada!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:08:03 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: A day at the races

At 10:46 AM 7/3/02 -0400, Furman, Russell wrote:
>Rich very nice about those targets ;)     I am going to recommend the PPE
>radiator again also run a 60% water to 40% coolant mix and a bottle of water
>wetter. Those changes/upgrades should more than do the trick.

It'll be a good winter project. I can run stock boost all day now without overheating, because I hardly ever get into 2nd gear on a track (when I used to use 2nd gear a lot, it would overheat). Therefore, I'll just save the 15 psi setting for when I need to close up and pass somebody.

I sure wish SOMEBODY could solve the problem of: why do we overheat when we run lots of boost? I am not entirely sure that an aluminum racing radiator will solve the problem, but I'll give it a go.
>
>As for the brake blowers please take some pics this might be a good idea for
>me with my 1G to 2G brake upgrade project.....

No pix for a while. I don't have time to put it up in the air. My season is over for the next few weeks. I have to do a month's work in two weeks so I can take a two week vacation.

Besides, the bilge blowers are just tie-wrapped to the control arm (proof of concept). Anybody could cobble up a similar system. Now that I know it works, I'll fab up a proper mount in my copious free time this winter.

I agree that the blowers would be a good idea for your car. In fact, they might be the key to using stock calipers for all our cars. After all, we actually do have pretty good brakes -- they just are not big enough to dissipate the heat. The blowers should really help a stock system. And, for the $20 each they cost, it would certainly be worth a try.

I think the ideal brake cooling system would be:
1. Bilge blowers aimed at the rotor from the rear of the control arm.
2. Scoop/duct aimed at the rotor from the front of the control arm.
3. Water injection to the CALIPER to cool brake fluid (like TransAm cars)

I bet this would help keep a stock system working. Sure would be a lot cheaper than Big Reds.
>
>And what the hell is ROWG?

It means rich old white guy. As I've pointed out in the past, our sport is whiter than hockey. That's not a racial statement, just fact.

Rich/slow old poop/POWG

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:18:06 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: Team3S: Cooling your engine for a day at the races

ROWG,

Here is the site for the radiator and fans.
http://www.ppeengineering.com/

- -----Original Message-----
From: merritt@cedar-rapids.net [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:08 AM
To: Furman, Russell; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: A day at the races

At 10:46 AM 7/3/02 -0400, Furman, Russell wrote:
>Rich very nice about those targets ;)     I am going to recommend the PPE
>radiator again also run a 60% water to 40% coolant mix and a bottle of
water
>wetter. Those changes/upgrades should more than do the trick.

It'll be a good winter project. I can run stock boost all day now without
overheating, because I hardly ever get into 2nd gear on a track (when I used
to use 2nd gear a lot, it would overheat). Therefore, I'll just save the 15
psi setting for when I need to close up and pass somebody.

I sure wish SOMEBODY could solve the problem of: why do we overheat when we
run lots of boost? I am not entirely sure that an aluminum racing radiator
will solve the problem, but I'll give it a go.
>
>As for the brake blowers please take some pics this might be a good idea
for
>me with my 1G to 2G brake upgrade project.....

No pix for a while. I don't have time to put it up in the air. My season is
over for the next few weeks. I have to do a month's work in two weeks so I
can take a two week vacation.

Besides, the bilge blowers are just tie-wrapped to the control arm (proof of
concept). Anybody could cobble up a similar system. Now that I know it
works, I'll fab up a proper mount in my copious free time this winter.

I agree that the blowers would be a good idea for your car. In fact, they
might be the key to using stock calipers for all our cars. After all, we
actually do have pretty good brakes -- they just are not big enough to
dissipate the heat. The blowers should really help a stock system. And, for
the $20 each they cost, it would certainly be worth a try.

I think the ideal brake cooling system would be:
1. Bilge blowers aimed at the rotor from the rear of the control arm.
2. Scoop/duct aimed at the rotor from the front of the control arm.
3. Water injection to the CALIPER to cool brake fluid (like TransAm cars)

I bet this would help keep a stock system working. Sure would be a lot
cheaper than Big Reds.
>
>And what the hell is ROWG?

It means rich old white guy. As I've pointed out in the past, our sport is
whiter than hockey. That's not a racial statement, just fact.

Rich/slow old poop/POWG

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:19:24 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

You should NOT fight the result ... fight the cause.

Unfortunately, if you have a high amount of oil in the piping then the
turbos are a possible source for failure. To check, remove the rubber
intake parts leading to the turbos. Inspect them for oil and check the
source for the oil.

If it's the PCV then replace it with a KrankVent kit. It's not good to have
any pressure in the crankcase that will finally transport oil into the
inlet infront the turbos.

The description given below is NOT correct and should not be followed. The
PCV system has been designed for proper ventilation and should be left in
the path as it is. Of course you can use a breather oil catch can but there
is a chance to get unmetered air into the intake causing. Also it has
nothing to do with any leaking turbo. A normal catch can should be used and
can simply be installed in between the ventilation hose leading from the
rear valve cover to the rubber intake under the y-pipe. The best insurance
to prevent any pressure in the crankcase is using the Krank-Vent kit. Not
cheap but effective.

IMHO, you suffer from heavy timing retard. The slow time points to this.
You may drop down the boost to 1 bar and run without alky. Then start using
pure water to prevent detonation.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

At 12:51 03.07.2002 +0000, Marc Gauthier wrote:
>Hey Ken,
>Most likely it's your PVC!
>You should remove the hose between the 2 head on the driver side, run 1
>hose from each head in to a can and vent that can with a small air filter.
>(breather Tank)
>Here a link:
>http://store.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/SUM-G1504.jpg
>This set-up, will let your crankcase bread and prevent your turbo from
>leaking!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:22:51 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: Team3S: WAS A day at the races NOW Track Overheating

> -----Original Message-----
> From: merritt@cedar-rapids.net [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:08 AM
> To: Furman, Russell; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: A day at the races
>
> At 10:46 AM 7/3/02 -0400, Furman, Russell wrote:
> >Rich very nice about those targets ;)     I am going to recommend the PPE
> >radiator again also run a 60% water to 40% coolant mix and a bottle of
> water
> >wetter. Those changes/upgrades should more than do the trick.
>
> It'll be a good winter project. I can run stock boost all day now without
> overheating, because I hardly ever get into 2nd gear on a track (when I
> used to use 2nd gear a lot, it would overheat). Therefore, I'll just save
> the 15 psi setting for when I need to close up and pass somebody.
>
> I sure wish SOMEBODY could solve the problem of: why do we overheat when
> we run lots of boost? I am not entirely sure that an aluminum racing
> radiator will solve the problem, but I'll give it a go.
Basically we overheat b/c our turbos are water jacketed (oil and
water cooled) when you start really pushing a turbo to its limits and even
beyond (15 PSI). You generate huge amounts of waste heat that needs to be
addressed, upgrading the oil cooling helps, but your best 2 options are to
improve cooling system or switch to non water jacketed turbos.

> Rich/slow old poop/POWG
>
>
Russ F PYWG (Poor Young White Guy)
CT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 10:29:51 -0500
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Track Overheating

> Basically we overheat b/c our turbos are water jacketed (oil and
>water cooled) when you start really pushing a turbo to its limits and even
>beyond (15 PSI). You generate huge amounts of waste heat that needs to be
>addressed, upgrading the oil cooling helps, but your best 2 options are to
>improve cooling system or switch to non water jacketed turbos.

Aha! Now that makes sense. Why haven't we heard this explanation before? Maybe I just missed it, although I've been asking the same question for a couple of years now.

Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:51:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating

IMHO, water cooled turbos are much more reliable over the long haul..

If you dont get the heat into the water, it'll all be in the OIL...so that
solves nothing. You still have energy in the system that needs bled out
somehow. The oil coolers are only so efficient..so you WILL gather up
that heat and have to get it out via the radiator.

Again, no gain by not getting a water cooled turbo.

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, merritt@cedar-rapids.net wrote:

> > Basically we overheat b/c our turbos are water jacketed (oil and
> >water cooled) when you start really pushing a turbo to its limits and even
> >beyond (15 PSI). You generate huge amounts of waste heat that needs to be
> >addressed, upgrading the oil cooling helps, but your best 2 options are to
> >improve cooling system or switch to non water jacketed turbos.
>
> Aha! Now that makes sense. Why haven't we heard this explanation before? Maybe I just missed it, although I've been asking the same question for a couple of years now.
>
> Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:44:08 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating

Maybe because the amount of heat (not temperature) the turbos produce and
transfer to the oil and water in the CHRA is small compared to that produced
in the cylinders under constant heavy load and power production? :) Just an
idea.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: Team3S: Track Overheating

> Basically we overheat b/c our turbos are water jacketed (oil and
>water cooled) when you start really pushing a turbo to its limits and even
>beyond (15 PSI). You generate huge amounts of waste heat that needs to be
>addressed, upgrading the oil cooling helps, but your best 2 options are to
>improve cooling system or switch to non water jacketed turbos.

Aha! Now that makes sense. Why haven't we heard this explanation before?
Maybe I just missed it, although I've been asking the same question for a
couple of years now.

Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:17:52 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

See I just throw out the half of the equation that I know and let the SME's
(Subject Matter Experts) fill me in on the rest.... Aka Jeff L and Geoff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:52 AM
> To: merritt@cedar-rapids.net
> Cc: Furman, Russell; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating
>
> IMHO, water cooled turbos are much more reliable over the long haul..
>
> If you dont get the heat into the water, it'll all be in the OIL...so that
> solves nothing. You still have energy in the system that needs bled out
> somehow. The oil coolers are only so efficient..so you WILL gather up
> that heat and have to get it out via the radiator.
>
> Again, no gain by not getting a water cooled turbo.
>
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, merritt@cedar-rapids.net wrote:
>
> > > Basically we overheat b/c our turbos are water jacketed (oil and
> > >water cooled) when you start really pushing a turbo to its limits and
> even
> > >beyond (15 PSI). You generate huge amounts of waste heat that needs to
> be
> > >addressed, upgrading the oil cooling helps, but your best 2 options are
> to
> > >improve cooling system or switch to non water jacketed turbos.
> >
> > Aha! Now that makes sense. Why haven't we heard this explanation
> before? Maybe I just missed it, although I've been asking the same
> question for a couple of years now.
> >
> > Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:20:29 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

Only one problem with that answer Jeff, Rich has already stated that over
heating at 12 psi is not anywhere near as much of a problem as it is at 15
hence it tends to lend credence to my idea that the turbos are just working
too Goddam hard to try and make the power......

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Lucius [SMTP:jlucius@stealth316.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:44 AM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating
>
> Maybe because the amount of heat (not temperature) the turbos produce and
> transfer to the oil and water in the CHRA is small compared to that
> produced
> in the cylinders under constant heavy load and power production? :) Just
> an
> idea.
>
> Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
> To: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>;
> <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:29 AM
> Subject: Team3S: Track Overheating
>
> > Basically we overheat b/c our turbos are water jacketed (oil and
> >water cooled) when you start really pushing a turbo to its limits and
> even
> >beyond (15 PSI). You generate huge amounts of waste heat that needs to
> be
> >addressed, upgrading the oil cooling helps, but your best 2 options are
> to
> >improve cooling system or switch to non water jacketed turbos.
>
> Aha! Now that makes sense. Why haven't we heard this explanation before?
> Maybe I just missed it, although I've been asking the same question for a
> couple of years now.
>
> Rich/slow old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

I dont even think its the turbos really..adding that much heat.

..that is, compared to the energy created by the motor itself with the
extra fueling demands.

Cooling systems have an edge..and theyre really stable until you reach
that edge. Perhaps that extra 20-30Hp is all it takes.

Granted that larger turbos will have lower intake & discharge temps as
well..so thats a factor as well.

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Furman, Russell wrote:

> Only one problem with that answer Jeff, Rich has already stated that over
> heating at 12 psi is not anywhere near as much of a problem as it is at 15
> hence it tends to lend credence to my idea that the turbos are just working
> too Goddam hard to try and make the power......

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 16:29:57 +0000
From: mjannusch@attbi.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

> Only one problem with that answer Jeff, Rich has
> already stated that over heating at 12 psi is not
> anywhere near as much of a problem as it is at 15
> hence it tends to lend credence to my idea that
> the turbos are just working too Goddam hard to
> try and make the power......

More power = more heat.

Plus if running 15 psi on stock injectors they are
certainly on the edge for open track use, so the
mixture is probably a bit leaner than it is at 12 psi
during long acceleration. It isn't a huge issue at a
dragstrip where you accelerate for 13 seconds at a
time, but on a road course a little leaner means larger
amounts of engine heat that the coolant tries to
dissipate.

I doubt the turbos are contributing in a huge way to
the water temp increase.

I don't doubt that the oil temps get pretty high when
open-tracking though. Especially with the stock oil
heater being located behind an intercooler. >doh!<

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:35:11 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

The hot gas coming out of the engine is dropping in pressure as it leaves
the port, as it encounters the impeller vanes it comes under intense
pressure again causing an exothermic action. The higher the boost you dial
in the more backpressure against the vanes. The high pressure exhaust gas
against the vanes is pumping heat in the form of IR (infra-red) energy into
the vanes and turbo casing. The higher the boost, the more pressure against
the vanes, the higher energy IR hitting the walls. This transfers a lot of
heat to the turbo body that would normally flow out in the exhaust.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:43:04 -0500
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Filters

The main concern really with all the kits is the surface area of the
filter. The regular KN FIPK is not as big as some of the others out
there (and apparently not as big as the one you linked to) since you can
still stick a Blitz DSBC box behind it (which isn't small).

For $67 shipped with the adapter, a support bracket and a 6" KN tapered
cone, I think I'm gonna get one too...

Any reasons not to?

Alex.

'95 VR4 with a dirty stock air filter waiting to be replaced.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Andre Cerri
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 AM
To: team3s
Subject: Team3S: Filters

Any comments on K&N, Air Mass etc for a 92 3000GT SL? The various
solutions
on Ebay or the group buy at
http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88186&highlight=filter

Anything to avoid, prices to pay, pros and cons?

Thx

Andre

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:54:06 -0400
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

To add to what the SME's already said, internal combustion engines are
less than 50% efficient (maybe ~40%?). Every extra drop of fuel that is
burned goes 60% towards heating the engine and the atmosphere.

Philip

>More power = more heat.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:17:12 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Krankvent    WAS: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

> If it's the PCV then replace it with a KrankVent kit. It's
> not good to have any pressure in the crankcase that will
> finally transport oil into the inlet infront the turbos.

Roger or others,

On the Krankvent site under the installation instructions for 3000GTs, it
mentions that the crankcase must be sealed for this to work. It
specifically mentions that there should be no breather filters installed on
the oil cap or valve covers. So will the stock ventilation hose that goes
from the front valve cover to the T-pipe prevent the Krankvent from working?

Also, why do we need a Krankvent on both the PCV hose (to manifold) AND on
the ventilation hose that goes to the T-pipe? I understand the reason for
the one on the PCV hose (duh!), but I don't understand why we need one on
the other hose from the valve cover to the T-pipe. AFAIK, the T-pipe should
never be pressurized unless you have big problems :-)

- --Erik

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:14:20 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A day at the races

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

> It'll be a good winter project. I can run stock boost all day now without overheating, because I hardly ever get into 2nd gear on
a track (when I used to use 2nd gear a lot, it would overheat). Therefore, I'll just save the 15 psi setting for when I need to
close up and pass somebody.
>
> I sure wish SOMEBODY could solve the problem of: why do we overheat when we run lots of boost? I am not entirely sure that an
aluminum racing radiator will solve the problem, but I'll give it a go.

While your problem is not unique I don't think it's the norm ---- I've run several
weekend events at 100º + with 15 psi boost and only had the gauge move off
of normal for ½ a lap. I'm not sure why I had the ½ lap overheat but it didn't
reoccur --- I did slow down for a few laps to keep an eye on the temp but then
went back to my normal driving. I do have a shift light set to 6K rpm and use
that point to avoid engine abuse unless I'm chasing somebody down. I use the
binary throttle approach when driving so I certainly don't baby the car. The
tracks I drive have very little 2nd gear stuff, it's mostly 3rd and 4th at the end of
the straights.

I'll be installing a FMIC soon [ I hope ] and that may cause a problem but as is
the car is problem free at the track.

PS --- watch that leaded gas, a couple of 10 gallon shots will kill your O2 sensors.
          110 octane is not required for 15 psi, as a matter of fact out here in Gods
          country [ Southern California ] we get the pleasure of 91 octane which is
          what I run at the track.

PPS --- I'm jealous about the $2.65 per gallon race gas [ $4.50+ anyplace ] and the
            $50 to race all day. Do they provide any corner workers or safety staff ??
            I would think for $50 it's pretty bare bones. Willowsprings is $2500 for a
            day plus you provide tow truck, insurance and ambulance.

        Jim berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:16:32 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating

The internal combustion engine is more like 20% efficient --- lots of
energy out the radiator and exhaust.

        Jim Berry
================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>
To: <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

> To add to what the SME's already said, internal combustion engines are
> less than 50% efficient (maybe ~40%?). Every extra drop of fuel that is
> burned goes 60% towards heating the engine and the atmosphere.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:26:04 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: Team3S: FS: Fidenza Flywheel

Well ladies and gents I have a brand new Fidenza Flywheel for sale, this is
for the TT cars only. I bought this one for a friend (he was short on cash)
and now he doesn't need it b/c he rolled the car..........

Any way looking to get 350 or so along with shipping......    I do take
paypal.

Thanks
Russ F
CT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:29:26 -0500
From: "S. J Cowan" <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Now Catch Can, was HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

Roger:

I understand that the Krant-Vent is a great solution if funding is
available, and I also agree on a sealed catch can versus a breather, but
I ask for clarification here:

> A normal catch can should be
> used and
> can simply be installed in between the ventilation hose leading from
> the
> rear valve cover to the rubber intake under the y-pipe.

Shouldn't a catch can be installed in-line between the PVC valve and the
intake nipple to prevent oil et al from getting into the intake?

Please advise.

Regards,

SJ

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:30:51 -0500
From: "S. J Cowan" <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Filters

Alex:

> The main concern really with all the kits is the surface area of the
> filter.

Wouldn't the main concern be matching the flow to the throttle bottle?
She's only going to take so much no matter how big that FIPK is...

Regards,

SJ

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:33:12 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

There is no question that addition heat is transferred into the turbo CHRA and
from there to the oil and coolant at higher boost levels.

The question is, how does this amount of heat compare to the extra amount of
heat produced in the cylinders? I suggest (without hard data) that it is small
compared to the energy and heat produced in the cylinders. Therefore, coolant
temperature rises from the inability of the radiator to transfer to the
atmosphere the extra heat from the cylinders (mostly).

BTW, much of the heat entering the turbine section is converted to kinetic
energy (blade rotation). That's, uh, "endothermic" (heat absorbed),
not "exothermic" (heat produced), **if** some sort of "reaction" were taking
place - which is not, of course. Toss this endo and exo crap out the window. :)

Some light reading on how turbos work.
Alan Allard, 1982, Turbocharging & Supercharging
Hugh MacInnes, 1984, Turbochargers
Heinz Heisler, 1995, Advanced Engine Technology
Corky Bell, 1997, Maximum Boost
Joe Haile, 1997, Motorcycle Turbocharging, Supercharging & Nitrous Oxide
Richard Stone, 1999, Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines, 3rd edition

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

The hot gas coming out of the engine is dropping in pressure as it leaves
the port, as it encounters the impeller vanes it comes under intense
pressure again causing an exothermic action. The higher the boost you dial
in the more backpressure against the vanes. The high pressure exhaust gas
against the vanes is pumping heat in the form of IR (infra-red) energy into
the vanes and turbo casing. The higher the boost, the more pressure against
the vanes, the higher energy IR hitting the walls. This transfers a lot of
heat to the turbo body that would normally flow out in the exhaust.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:43:09 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

Nope. When you say turbos are "working hard", you are referring to the
compressor efficiency and the extra heating of the air. This does not
contribute significantly to the CHRA temp (and from there to the oil and
water) - what are we talking about 300º as opposed to 200ºF?. And the
intercoolers reduce this discharge air temp (hopefully) to something
reasonable. Besides, combustion temperature is in the range of 3600ºF to
4500ºF. An extra 100-200ºF of intake air temp from the turbos makes no
difference (except for detonation *before* or *after* the combustion event)

The difference in running at 12 psi and 15 psi is NOT that the turbos work any
harder. The exhaust gas is NOT any hotter based on engine output at WOT. But
there is more exhaust gas and more heat to be converted to kinetic energy in
the turbine section. So the turbos will be "hotter" from the extra heat (not
converted).

The great difference between 12 psi and 15 psi or 20 psi is in the cylinder
specific output. The engine is making lots more power (more heat) with the
extra air and fuel. Assuuming the engine thermal efficiency does not change
much, more power means more heat to be absorbed by the block and head (oil and
coolant and air transfer). The radiator has a certain heat transfer rate based
on the conditions (such as air temp in front of and behind the radiator). When
it gets more heat than it can "handle", the coolant temp will rise.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

Only one problem with that answer Jeff, Rich has already stated that over
heating at 12 psi is not anywhere near as much of a problem as it is at 15
hence it tends to lend credence to my idea that the turbos are just working
too Goddam hard to try and make the power......

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Casey Spivey <spiv99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

When I would start my '91 Vr-4 the idle would not stay up and it
would die. When I took it out of gear while driving the rpm's would
drop before I could get the car stopped and it would die. Yesterday
while pulling in to a gas station I pressed the clutch, but it didn't
die. Instead the RPM's fluctuated between 1K and 2K. So I self
diagnosed this as the idle control motor, stepper motor, as being
bad. Well the dealer says that usually it cooks the computer and it
will have to be replaced as well. If not the new contol motor won't
work because the computer will burn it up. I have never heard of
anyone replaceing the ECU with the stepper motor. What do you guys
think? Thanks

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:03:07 +0000
From: "Marc Gauthier" <gogauthier@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

Well sorry Roger, I’m from the old school, where we had litle air filter
right on top of the valve covers. (4 of them)

The PVC system on the TT was designed for 12 psi of boost and of course that
include the size of the hole where it bolts up.
Now some of us are pushing 15 to 20 psi on the same system with the same
piston and rings and this is when we’re getting major blow-by (dip stick
popup, oil cap leak, turbo leak, …)

“Of course you can use a breather oil catch can but there is a chance to get
unmetered air into the intake causing”

How would that append?

>From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
>To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>Subject: Re: Team3S: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe
>Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:19:24 +0200
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:20:56 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

I am looking at the circuit diagram for the ISC/IAC servo (aka stepper motor).
If I am reading it correctly, it shows the two (+) into the motor coming from
the engine control relay. The four (-) terminals from the two motor windings
go to the ECM, which uses switching transitors to ground the circuit
(internally) as needed.

So I am wondering HOW a bad stepper motor could fry the ECM. Too much voltage?
>From where, the engine control relay? Wouldn't it have to be fried too? Could
any of the EEs in the group help me out here? I would not want to rush to
judgement about dealers being pretty-much ignorant about how to properly work
on our cars.

Thanks,

GHTSTGTAD
(god help the souls that go to a dealer) Except for parts, of course. :)

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Casey Spivey" <spiv99@yahoo.com>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

<snip> So I self diagnosed this as the idle control motor, stepper motor, as
being bad. Well the dealer says that usually it cooks the computer and it will
have to be replaced as well. If not the new contol motor won't work because
the computer will burn it up. I have never heard of anyone replaceing the ECU
with the stepper motor. What do you guys think? Thanks

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 18:29:06 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

Gas is compressed on the *compressor side* of the turbo. And that is an
adiabatic process. But regardless, additional heat (energy) is not produced!
The temperature changes. You do know the difference, yes? Basic physics.

There is NO compression on the turbine side. There is no heat (energy)
*produced* on the turbine side. Sorry. Crap conclusion stands. :)

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
To: "'Jeff Lucius'" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

Any time a gas is compressed there is an exothermic "action" not reaction.
Basic physics, not crap.

Pete.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:50:46 -0400
From: "SWC" <swc@centurytel.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Filters

This filter itself from carparts.com is around $65. (K&N Xtreme 6"x4-1/2")

So that price with the adapter and the brackets is a steal.

I've always been a big fan of DIY instead of buying an off the shelf FIPK,
because you can save $80+ an it looks just as good. BUT - I've also spent
considerable amounts of time crafting custom adapters and mounting brackets.

In this case the adapters and brackets are basically free - so what's not to
like?

I guess the question is whether the filter is big enough - 6" long, 6"
diameter at the top and 4-1/2" diameter at the bottom (plus the filter
element on the bottom of the filter). Is that enough surface area? Its
gotta be WAY more than sticking a stock size K&N in the airbox.

Steve C.
92 Stealth RT TT
93 Toyota MR2 Turbo (w/DIY K&N Xtreme FIPK)
96 Impala SS (w/DIY K&N Xtreme FIPK)
70 Dodge Charger R/T (can't figure out a classy way to add an FIPK)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@earthlink.net>
To: <cerri@intersystems.com>; "'team3s'" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Filters

> The main concern really with all the kits is the surface area of the
> filter. The regular KN FIPK is not as big as some of the others out
> there (and apparently not as big as the one you linked to) since you can
> still stick a Blitz DSBC box behind it (which isn't small).
>
> For $67 shipped with the adapter, a support bracket and a 6" KN tapered
> cone, I think I'm gonna get one too...
>
> Any reasons not to?
>
> Alex.
>
> '95 VR4 with a dirty stock air filter waiting to be replaced.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:51:42 -0700
From: "Rivenburg, Pete" <privenburg@firstam.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Filters

Has anyone ever built a ducted airbox to fit the after market filter kits? I
would like to put one on for the HP gain but under hood heat is a huge issue
were I live. It is close enough to use the passenger side hood blister to
mount a scoop.

Pete Rivenburg
PHX, AZ
93 3000GT SL, stock.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:15:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Casey Spivey <spiv99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

I never go to the dealer except for them to run a computer on my car.
I just called and spoke with one of the service guys about it and
that is what he said. He also said that Hyundai's have the same
problem. Does the symptoms that I was having sound like the stepper
motor is bad to you? I did notice about 2 weeks before this started
that my oil pressure started to go down as well. Whenever I would be
driving it and then come to a stop the RPM's would drop to about
6-700 and the oil light would always come on, but it would go off
over 1000-1200 RPM's. Thanks, '91 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:25:20 -0700
From: "tri" <thn@dexray.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Filters

I use the S&B Powerstack 7" filter in my car. I believe that as long as you
remove the entire stock filter box, you can fit up to an 8" filter in there.
My filter cost $55 dollars from
http://www.intenseperformance.com/products/cone_filters/cone_filters.html

Shipping is timely and the filter works great. I don't really think there is
much of a difference between the K&N and the one I use (S&B). Also, they
sell ceramic coated canisters that can encase the filter with a 3" flex hose
at the end to stretch to whatever part of the car you like.

The adapter, I purchased on Ebay for around 25 shipped.

Best of Luck,
Tri
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "SWC" <swc@centurytel.net>
To: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@earthlink.net>; <cerri@intersystems.com>;
"'team3s'" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Filters

> This filter itself from carparts.com is around $65. (K&N Xtreme
6"x4-1/2")
>
> So that price with the adapter and the brackets is a steal.
>
> I've always been a big fan of DIY instead of buying an off the shelf FIPK,
> because you can save $80+ an it looks just as good. BUT - I've also spent
> considerable amounts of time crafting custom adapters and mounting
brackets.
>
> In this case the adapters and brackets are basically free - so what's not
to
> like?
>
> I guess the question is whether the filter is big enough - 6" long, 6"
> diameter at the top and 4-1/2" diameter at the bottom (plus the filter
> element on the bottom of the filter). Is that enough surface area? Its
> gotta be WAY more than sticking a stock size K&N in the airbox.
>
> Steve C.
> 92 Stealth RT TT
> 93 Toyota MR2 Turbo (w/DIY K&N Xtreme FIPK)
> 96 Impala SS (w/DIY K&N Xtreme FIPK)
> 70 Dodge Charger R/T (can't figure out a classy way to add an FIPK)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@earthlink.net>
> To: <cerri@intersystems.com>; "'team3s'" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 12:43 PM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Filters
>
> > The main concern really with all the kits is the surface area of the
> > filter. The regular KN FIPK is not as big as some of the others out
> > there (and apparently not as big as the one you linked to) since you can
> > still stick a Blitz DSBC box behind it (which isn't small).
> >
> > For $67 shipped with the adapter, a support bracket and a 6" KN tapered
> > cone, I think I'm gonna get one too...
> >
> > Any reasons not to?
> >
> > Alex.
> >
> > '95 VR4 with a dirty stock air filter waiting to be replaced.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:41:15 -0400
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light

Hi Team,

How do I block off the EGR and not have a check engine light?

There is a thermistor inserted in the EGR valve. Is the ECU looking at
anything else? Does is have to be fooled somehow?

Advantages of the EGR:
- a slightly better fuel economy

Disadvantages of the EGR:
- hot exhaust gas entering my engine
- hot exhaust gas runs along the intake manifold and heats up the
manifold
- one more clumsy metal line to disconnect when replacing spark plugs and
working on the engine
- EGR valve and the EGR tube weigh about extra 1 lbs

Philip

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:54:33 -0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light

The conditions for setting off the CEL for EGR malfunctions are VERY tight.
You'll have to hit the service manuals for specifics, but it's something
along the lines of: "Less than 30% throttle, at 1800-2100 RPMs, for 30+
seconds, while crusing on a flat (steady load) surface".

I've had my EGR removed for several months, and had the CEL light come on
only once. After looking up the above specifics, I now make sure I'm always
cruising at above 2300 RPMs, and I haven't seen the CEL since.

- - Brian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com [mailto:pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 12:41 PM
> To: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light
>
> Hi Team,
>
> How do I block off the EGR and not have a check engine light?
>
> There is a thermistor inserted in the EGR valve. Is the ECU looking at
> anything else? Does is have to be fooled somehow?
>
> Advantages of the EGR:
> - a slightly better fuel economy
>
> Disadvantages of the EGR:
> - hot exhaust gas entering my engine
> - hot exhaust gas runs along the intake manifold and heats up the
> manifold
> - one more clumsy metal line to disconnect when replacing
> spark plugs and
> working on the engine
> - EGR valve and the EGR tube weigh about extra 1 lbs
>
> Philip

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:54:47 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light

I'd like a discussion on EGR --- under the advantages should be reduction of
combustion temps. The reason for EGR was to reduce combustion temps
and therefore nitrogen oxides --- does that help reduce detonation ????
Lots of folk have blocked the EGR, has anyone seen an increase in EGT
values or any other adverse affects.

Is the EGR valve open or closed at WOT ??

        Jim Berry
=============================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>

> Hi Team,
>
> How do I block off the EGR and not have a check engine light?
>
> There is a thermistor inserted in the EGR valve. Is the ECU looking at
> anything else? Does is have to be fooled somehow?
>
> Advantages of the EGR:
> - a slightly better fuel economy
>
> Disadvantages of the EGR:
> - hot exhaust gas entering my engine
> - hot exhaust gas runs along the intake manifold and heats up the
> manifold
> - one more clumsy metal line to disconnect when replacing spark plugs and
> working on the engine
> - EGR valve and the EGR tube weigh about extra 1 lbs

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:02:58 -0400
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light

Yes you will see about a 20 DEG C increase in EGT's, and ideally it should
be closed at WOT but practical experience show that at higher boost
pressures it has a tendency to leak on Turbo'd cars.

A couple the MKIV guys found that on those cars EGR's leaked at anything
above 15psi and the problem got worse over time......

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fastmax [SMTP:fastmax@cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:55 PM
> To: team3s@team3s.com; pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light
>
> I'd like a discussion on EGR --- under the advantages should be reduction
> of
> combustion temps. The reason for EGR was to reduce combustion temps
> and therefore nitrogen oxides --- does that help reduce detonation ????
> Lots of folk have blocked the EGR, has anyone seen an increase in EGT
> values or any other adverse affects.
>
> Is the EGR valve open or closed at WOT ??
>
>         Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:17:56 -0400
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: EGR block-off w/o check-engine light

Yes, sorry, I forgot. EGR actually decreases the combustion temperatures
under partial throttle because the exhaust gas does not burn.

Under full throttle, though, the EGR valve *should* stay closed.
Detonation is not affected since it does not normally occur at partial
throttle. And we do not want any exhaust gas in the cylinders anyway when
we are trying to fill the cylinders with air and fuel to produce maximum
power.

Philip

- --------------------------------------------------------------

Yes you will see about a 20 DEG C increase in EGT's, and ideally it should
be closed at WOT but practical experience show that at higher boost
pressures it has a tendency to leak on Turbo'd cars.

A couple the MKIV guys found that on those cars EGR's leaked at anything
above 15psi and the problem got worse over time......

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:41:54 -0700
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

That is the biggest load of BS that I have heard this week!! Your are most
likely right about your diagnosis, but it does not do anything to your ECU!
Where do these guys get the audacity to even try that stuff on people??

Tyson

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Casey Spivey
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 10:54 AM
To: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

When I would start my '91 Vr-4 the idle would not stay up and it
would die. When I took it out of gear while driving the rpm's would
drop before I could get the car stopped and it would die. Yesterday
while pulling in to a gas station I pressed the clutch, but it didn't
die. Instead the RPM's fluctuated between 1K and 2K. So I self
diagnosed this as the idle control motor, stepper motor, as being
bad. Well the dealer says that usually it cooks the computer and it
will have to be replaced as well. If not the new contol motor won't
work because the computer will burn it up. I have never heard of
anyone replaceing the ECU with the stepper motor. What do you guys
think? Thanks

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:10:15 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Idle stepper motor went bad, dealer says...

> I am looking at the circuit diagram for the ISC/IAC servo
> (aka stepper motor).

I assume you're looking at p13A-263 in the service manual...

> So I am wondering HOW a bad stepper motor could fry the ECM.
> Could any of the EEs in the group help me out here? I would not
> want to rush to judgement about dealers being pretty-much
> ignorant about how to properly work on our cars.

I, too, previously restrained myself from the "WTH is the dealer thinking
saying it'd fry the ECU" comment on the off-chance that there is some way it
could do that. I don't know what the common failure mode for the ISC motor
is, so I suppose there is a possibility it *could* happen. I haven't taken
apart the ISC motor, but I assume it's a generic DC motor with brushes,
windings, and all that stuff.

It looks like the ISC motor is the sole provider of resistance in this
circuit, so.... *IF* the motor failed in such a way that it caused an
excessive current draw, it looks like it *could* damage the ECU *if* a fuse
somewhere didn't blow. If there was excessive current and nothing
interrupted it, then it *might* trash the power transistors in the ECU.
Excessive heat causing electromigration in the silicon and all... or maybe
just melting them :-)   I don't see any way that excessive current draw
could damage anything on the MFI relay side of the ISC.

BUT, AFAICT, *IF* the ISC managed to trash the ECU's power transistors, then
it should simply be an open-circuit on the ECM side of the ISC motor. This
shouldn't be able to damage a new, working ISC motor in any way. It just
wouldn't work, and then you'd know you needed a new ECU (or at least need to
replace the power transistors).

Based on that diagram and unless I'm missing something, I'd think you should
replace the ISC motor with a new one and then replace the ECU if and only if
there are problems with the ECU. Further, since the particular motor in
question (Casey's) seems to simply be behaving erratically (it hasn't
completely stopped working), there may not have been the possibility of
damaging the ECU at all yet.

- --Erik

P.S. even IF a faulty ECU could trash a new ISC motor by "burning it up"
(which I take to mean continuing to provide power to it after it's reached
the end of its travel and melting stuff), one could easily test this by
connecting it and watching/listening as the ECU drives the motor when the
engine is started. Or connect a multimeter to the leads and see if the ECU
is continually driving the motor when it shouldn't be.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:10:24 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Now Catch Can, was HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

> Shouldn't a catch can be installed in-line between the PVC valve and the
> intake nipple to prevent oil et al from getting into the intake?

Well you can do that too as the valve opens under vacuum. But I have never
seen an oile line there it was always full at the rubber parts in the intake
tract due to the massive pressure in the crankcase. I have no problem with a
little oil at vacuum condition but it must be closed under boost. I prefer
much more a clean intake tract, turbos, IC pipings, IC and y-pipe !

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:06:58 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Filters

> > The main concern really with all the kits is the surface area of the
> > filter.
>
> Wouldn't the main concern be matching the flow to the throttle bottle?
> She's only going to take so much no matter how big that FIPK is...

Just install a vacuum meter before the MAS and if there is any vacuum found
it is a restriction.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:05:15 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

> Well sorry Roger, I’m from the old school, where we had litle air filter
> right on top of the valve covers. (4 of them)

I also have a Z28

> The PVC system on the TT was designed for 12 psi of boost and of course
that
> include the size of the hole where it bolts up.

Only the valve was probably designed to hold at 1 bars of boost.

> Now some of us are pushing 15 to 20 psi on the same system with the same
> piston and rings and this is when we’re getting major blow-by (dip stick
> popup, oil cap leak, turbo leak, …)

Blow by means pressure going by the rings into the crankcase. I guess you
mix up things as those cars are forced induction ones. And again, turbo
leaks are not related to this.

> “Of course you can use a breather oil catch can but there is a chance to
get
> unmetered air into the intake causing”
>
> How would that append?

The turbos are sucking in air and the PCV hose leads into the intake after
the MAS... check out the PCV diagram for our cars. When capping the things
off and using the filter is not fully releasing the pressure out of the
crankcase. The best thing indeed is to keeping a vacuum in the crankcase for
fully performance. There will be an amount of blow by for sure and some
pressure may always be found, but not much.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:17:08 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Krankvent    WAS: HELP! Massive oil AT y-pipe

> Roger or others,
>
> On the Krankvent site under the installation instructions for 3000GTs, it
> mentions that the crankcase must be sealed for this to work. It
> specifically mentions that there should be no breather filters installed
on
> the oil cap or valve covers. So will the stock ventilation hose that goes
> from the front valve cover to the T-pipe prevent the Krankvent from
working?

There is no hose going from the front valve cover to the intake part
(T-pipe)
The Krankvent kit for our cars comes with two valves (that's why it is
costly) to provide the sealing of the crankcase

> Also, why do we need a Krankvent on both the PCV hose (to manifold) AND on
> the ventilation hose that goes to the T-pipe? I understand the reason for
> the one on the PCV hose (duh!), but I don't understand why we need one on
> the other hose from the valve cover to the T-pipe. AFAIK, the T-pipe
should
> never be pressurized unless you have big problems :-)

The valve to the intake manifold is larger than the one in between the
T-pipe and the rear valve-cover. This then causes a small vacuum in the
crankcase under non-boost conditions. Under boost any pressure in the
crankcase is released to the T-pipe then. Infront the second valve I
installed my catch can.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:15:28 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

As long as we're talking about temps ... I have some Radio Shack
temperature probes and am experimenting with underhood temps (I know ...
not that old topic again). But speak up as long as I have them and tell
me what area you want measured and I'll do my best.

Right now I have two indoor/outdoor probes (max reading of 160 F though
so I'm getting a higher one). One is taped to the outside of the K&N
FIPK and one is taped over top of the rear turbo.

Quick measurements are real hot when sitting but once moving, like
everyone else has shown, the air intake cools down to about 20 F above
ambient (night) or about 30-40 F above ambient during day. Above the
rear turbo blasts past max reading sitting but runs around 125-150 F
while cruising (night) and flutters around max reading on hot days.

So let me know where you want measured and I'll ask that anyone else
send me their old data and we can make a new FAQ page. I'm assuming we
will want some temps in front of the ICs captured, possibly inside the
air pipe maybe near the Y-pipe or before and after a turbo, at the end
of the hood when that seal is removed, underneath the car, etc. Speak
up and we'll get some readings.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

If you dont have a heat shield for that rear turbo probe..the numbers are
suspect. You should only be measuring air temps, not heating the probe up
with huge amounts of radiant heat, and hoping the air cools it down to
ambient.

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:

> As long as we're talking about temps ... I have some Radio Shack
> temperature probes and am experimenting with underhood temps (I know ...
> not that old topic again). But speak up as long as I have them and tell
> me what area you want measured and I'll do my best.
>
> Right now I have two indoor/outdoor probes (max reading of 160 F though
> so I'm getting a higher one). One is taped to the outside of the K&N
> FIPK and one is taped over top of the rear turbo.
>
> Quick measurements are real hot when sitting but once moving, like
> everyone else has shown, the air intake cools down to about 20 F above
> ambient (night) or about 30-40 F above ambient during day. Above the
> rear turbo blasts past max reading sitting but runs around 125-150 F
> while cruising (night) and flutters around max reading on hot days.
>
> So let me know where you want measured and I'll ask that anyone else
> send me their old data and we can make a new FAQ page. I'm assuming we
> will want some temps in front of the ICs captured, possibly inside the
> air pipe maybe near the Y-pipe or before and after a turbo, at the end
> of the hood when that seal is removed, underneath the car, etc. Speak
> up and we'll get some readings.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:30:54 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track Overheating

The temp probe is not behind an air shield but is buffered by the few
vacuum lines that run across the firewall at that point right now. I
know that is not much but why would a heat shield matter? If there is a
heat shield then the temps will be lower at first because of this
barrier. However, once the car is shut off the heat shield will retain
heat longer and the temps will appear to stay higher longer. Right?

Why can't I just dangle the probe in the air and measure the air temps
there? If I tape it to the IC pipe then it is measuring the surface of
the pipe and that is not right. That is why it is dangling in the air.
Same with the air filter probe. Duct tape is holding it on the end
(metal part) of the FIPK and the probe dangles in front of the K&N.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 19:29

If you dont have a heat shield for that rear turbo probe..the numbers
are suspect. You should only be measuring air temps, not heating the
probe up with huge amounts of radiant heat, and hoping the air cools it
down to ambient.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:31:06 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating

Also, the probes should not be touching anything --- I did some quick and dirty
measurements a year or two ago and found the air dropped to about 10º to
20º above ambient after I had been moving for 10 seconds or so.

The number I'd like to see verified is the high filter input temps at WOT ---
I saw temps climb 70+ degrees at WOT with a very fast reacting
thermocouple probe.

        Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:22:20 -0700
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track Overheating

I would like to see a temp reading at the stock intake behind the headlight
to compair with the air at the FIPK. I suspect that the FIPK draws in
hotter air since it is drawing some air that comes after the radiator and
some warmer air from the engine compartment. Whereas the stock intake draws
from behind the headlight avoiding the air after the radiator and engine
compartment altogether.