Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth     Thursday, May 2 2002     Volume 01 : Number 829




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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:53:24 -0500
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Desert Fox" <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
To: "Damon Rachell" <damonr@mefas.com>; <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube

> My 2 cents. All the reading and research I've personally read says that
> putting PTFE into your engine can do nothing good. Your best bet is a
> high-quality full synthetic oil. No Teflon, no additives, nuthin...
>
> What synthetic doesn't do that dino oil does is breakdown, coke and
> deteriorate at a rapid rate due to the contaminants produced by the
internal
> combustion engine. With synthetic oil, you shouldn't need a turbo timer
> because the synthetic oils will not coke up inside your turbo feed lines
> when they are at super hot temperatures after a hard run.
>
> Look at what jet aircraft use for their oil. That will tell you a lot
about
> what would be similarly beneficial for our cars. Jet engine rebuild is
> expensive and failure while under use is not acceptable. Full synthetic
oils
> in all commercial jets, if I'm not terribly mistaken.
>
> Fram has a oil filter with PTFE impregnated into it. Why would anybody
even
> think of buying this thing?
>
> Slick 50, ProLong, all the other snake oils are just that. Stay away.
>
> However, life expectancy of high quality synthetic oils is much higher
than
> most people give credit to. Same with filters. There are test kits
available
> so that you can submit a sample of your oil and have it tested for it
> efficiency. If it falls below a certain level of contamination, then you
are
> notified and should change the oil ASAP. But I have sent in oil that has
> over 10,000 miles on it without showing any reason to change on the
analysis
> that came back. Others have reported getting back analysis results after
> 50,000 miles showing very little breakdown if any.
>
> I find myself falling back into the old routines though of starting to
feel
> like I need to change it between 3-5K miles. And I've been doing some
> experimenting with viscosities so that has also entailed more frequent
> changes. 0W30 seems too light, a bit too much ticking for my taste. 10W30
> seems just right. I'm dying to try some 20W50 or 15W50 next for the
summer,
> even though these aren't recommended viscosities for the VR-4. I don't see
> how it could hurt for summer. Cold starts in the winter would be out of
the
> question but it seems to me that with a hotter running engine that a
higher
> viscosity oil would be a good thing.
>
> About the only thing I have been scheming to do that I haven't tried is
> wrapping the oil filter with a magnet to pull any metallic particles out
> toward the canister hopefully trapping them there. Anybody tried the
magnet
> on the oil filter trick before that can pass along antic dotes?
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with much of this.  While I don't change my oil quiet as
often as Jeff :) - I rarely exceed 3-4K miles and always use
full synthetic.

Mitsu does list higher viscosities in the owner's manual!

20W -20   20w-40  for 0 degrees F (32C) and up
for turbo models.

Same for non turbos except 20W-50 is added as well
as 10w - 40/50 even for colder temps.

Full synthetic 20w-50 will flow better than conventional
so I don't have a problem using that in higher temps.

I've tried the magnet on the filter - ran it for a couple of years
but never cut open the filter.  Read a report about the flow of
oil through the filter would be too fast for it to even work so
I question whether it is really effective or not.

- - tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 11:58:46 -0600
From: Desert Fox <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube

Sorry to hear you are having a bad day.

on 5/1/02 11:43 AM, Geoff Mohler at gemohler@www.speedtoys.com scribbled:

>> What synthetic doesn't do that dino oil does is breakdown, coke and
>> deteriorate at a rapid rate due to the contaminants produced by the internal
>> combustion engine. With synthetic oil, you shouldn't need a turbo timer
>> because the synthetic oils will not coke up inside your turbo feed lines
>> when they are at super hot temperatures after a hard run.
> ---
> Thats not exactly true.  ATTimer or a small cooldown period is still very
> important.  Not all synthetic oils are created equally..some OTC synths
> evaporate and ash as bad as good natural oils.

You are precisely right in that not all synthetic oils are created equal.
Don't get me started on that one cause I can tell you all about how the
formula for Mobil 1 was changed since its inception so that Chevy, Porsche
and other auto manufacturers who supply Mobil 1 from the factory would agree
to do so. Mobil had to decrease their quality by upping the phosphorus
content so that SOME wear would occur. Otherwise, the auto manufacturers
would sell you one car that would end up lasting you for the rest of your
life and your children's lives. It is shi**y oil that wears out car engines.
You could change your .99¢/qt dino oil every 500 miles and still end up with
more wear than by using high quality synthetic for 10,000 miles without a
change. Planned obsolescence anyone?

The synthetics I am referring to survive extremely well under the heat
stresses caused by the turbos. I usually sit for a few seconds (up to 30)
when I pull in to a parking spot mostly just to finish listening to a song,
turn off all accessories and finish my blunt.;-)<g>

>
>> Look at what jet aircraft use for their oil. That will tell you a lot about
>> what would be similarly beneficial for our cars. Jet engine rebuild is
>> expensive and failure while under use is not acceptable. Full synthetic oils
>> in all commercial jets, if I'm not terribly mistaken.
> ---
> Until I see someone pouring Mobil-1 into thier jet fighter they picked up
> at the local Kragen, im gonna ignore that last paragraph.

I didn't say anything about jet fighters but commercial airliners. The
government has pretty good stuff I'm sure but they aren't going to get sued
into oblivion when a pilot drives into the ground because they lost oil
pressure. A commercial airliner has much, much more at risk and I know that
most of the airlines are using the same synthetic oil in their commercial
planes. So ignore the last paragraph and the truth if you so desire.
Ignorance is quite blissful.

>
>> Fram has a oil filter with PTFE impregnated into it. Why would anybody even
>> think of buying this thing?
> ---
> For the same reason you draw the simple conclusion that -all- synthetics
> are as good as the synthetics the military uses in jets.  Lack of study
> and/or ignorance.
>
> "It doesnt stick in my pan..so in my motor...."
>
> Its the same leap-of-faith.

Seems like a leap to the crack pipe to me. Putting any kind of solid
particulate material into the engine, either in the oil itself, as an
additive or through decomposition of the filtration material all seem
equally "snake oil-like".

Come on back with us Geoff! Nothing was said about ALL synthetics - I was
simply avoiding the brand name disputes since most listers seem to like
Mobil 1 and at least 1 out of 5 surveyed dentists disagree...

- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 14:29:30 -0400
From: "Tom Terflinger" <terflit@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Propane or LPG bi-fuel alternative

So if one were to run propane in his/her car and turn up the boost say
17-20psi are larger injectors still needed? If so what if vpc and gcc are
already present to tune the mixture rich/lean etc. are larger injecors still
needed (if so why?)

>From: "Geddes, Brian J" <brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
>To: team3s@team3s.com
>Subject: RE: Team3S: Propane or LPG bi-fuel alternative
>Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 09:51:25 -0700
>
>My understanding is that the big benefit from the propane injection is the
>ability to turn up the boost without knock.  Propane accomplishes this in
>two ways.  First, it is stored as a liquid at REALLY high pressures, and
>thanks to Boyle's law, when it sprays into the intake it will be a gas at
>extremely low temps (-60 claims Matt Monett).  This is similar to the
>benefits of water injection - lower the intake temperature.  A lower temp
>air/fuel charge is a denser air/fuel charge, meaning that at a given boost
>level there is more air/fuel to combust in the cylinder, and thus more
>power.  Remember, .5L at 15PSI and 100C is MORE air/fuel than .5L at 15PSI
>and 200C.  The higher octane rating of propane (combined with the lower
>intake temperatures) allow you to turn up the boost without getting knock.
>This will once again put more air/fuel in the cylinder.
>
>Admitedly, the propane will displace some of the air, but the overall
>effect
>should be more power, and antecdotal evidence shows this to be the case.
>
>- Brian

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 14:36:50 -0400
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Propane or LPG bi-fuel alternative

Most of the engines run at MBT timing already (mean best torque), which
means that advancing timing any further won't increase the horsepower.

Do not forget that gasoline provides some cooling too when it evaporates.
To get a horsepower comparable to the 110 octane, you need to supply 10%
more fuel (and air). The boost pressure will be the same. This means that
the air/fuel charge has to be so much cooler that it is 10% more dense.
That is assuming that the stoichometric ratio for propane is the same. I am
not sure about that. For methanol, for
example, it is around 12 - 13 as opposed to the gasoline's 14.7. This
helps too.

I would like to see some more anecdotal and real evidence. Real evidence
is preferred.

Philip

>...but the overall effect
>should be more power, and antecdotal evidence shows this to be the case.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 13:48:18 -0500
From: "Black, Dave (ICT)" <dblai@allstate.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need 60mm single gauge pod

I contacted Dennis at Lo-Tek and he has stated the the Lo-Tek 3000GT/STealth
triple gauge pod (what I have) will not fit a 60mm gauge modified or not.

I have been looking around for a 60mm single gauge pod to add to my
currently installed Autometer dual gauge pod.  I have not had any luck
finding one though as Autometer does not make them.

I'd prefer not to mount the gauge to my dash at all.  Anyone know where I
can find a 60mm (2 5/8") single gauge pod?

TIA

Dave 95VR4
http://www.daveblack.net

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:55:00 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Team3S: K&N Filtercharger for Eclipse out of production

I recently runned out of stock of the Eclipse Filterchargers (the non-street
legal cheap filter) and wahted to order a bunch of them. K&N now told me
that it's not in production anymore and has been replaced by the already
known FIPK ... on a higher price of course ! Summit sells it for around $112
compared to the $165.00 for our FIPK.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 15:10:44 -0400
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Propane or LPG bi-fuel alternative

To get a horsepower comparable to the 110 octane, you need to supply 10%
more fuel (and air). The boost pressure will be the same. This means that
the air/fuel charge has to be so much cooler that it is 10% more dense.

PV = mRT

To make m go up by 10%, you need to have T lover by 10%. A good FMIC
supplies air that is at 10-15 degrees F above the ambient. That means that
if it is +70 F outside, the after intercooler temperature will be 85F
(302K) and the propane-air mixture should be at (302 * 0.9 = 272K) or 30F.

If heat capacities of air and propane are similar, and you are injecting
propane that is at -60F (222K), the resulting mixture will be at only (222
* 1/14.7 + 302 * 13.7/14.7 = 297K) or 74 F. Not cold enough.

Philip

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:19:39 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Propane or LPG bi-fuel alternative

We have people talking two different topics here --- one is the use of propane
as an alternative fuel and the other is it's use as a supplement to gasoline, e.g.
injected into the manifold to delay the onset of knock.

I've done some superficial checking into it's use as a fuel and find lots of
compelling reasons for switching to propane --- high octane, relatively cheap,
very clean burning, tax brakes in some areas. The downside is fuel storage
[ heavy tanks ], fuel availability, cold weather heating required.

I've also seen very little info on the use of propane in high output engines. It
seems that it's common in trucks and small cars but I found very little in the
way of high HP conversions [ Dave Blacks friend may be an exception ].

As to the use of propane to reduce knock that seems to be the latest hot button
for boost in excess of 20# on pump gas. If true sign me up --- much info on the
net but almost all related to turbo diesel trucks and virtually non on use in turbo
cars --- Matt Monet, and others, are quickly designing and selling kits for $500
and up. At this point most of the data is anecdotal [ as usual with tuner stuff ].
Ecool [ Matts Supra owning sidekick ] makes claims for great improvements in
his ¼ mile times.  'BUT' he also claims to have had fuel problems before the
addition of propane injection. Maybe all he did was resolve a lean condition with
the addition of another fuel source. On this one, time will tell --- within a couple
of months there will be dozens of cars out there with propane injection.

BTW the first shot out of the regulator will not be at -60º unless you purge the
system as you would nos. There are also claims of propane being 140 octane,
the numbers most often seen on the net is 104 to 110 --- of course the
proponents use the largest numbers available.

        Jim Berry
=================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Terflinger" <terflit@hotmail.com>

> So if one were to run propane in his/her car and turn up the boost say
> 17-20psi are larger injectors still needed? If so what if vpc and gcc are
> already present to tune the mixture rich/lean etc. are larger injecors still
> needed (if so why?)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 13:44:08 -0600
From: Desert Fox <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: underhood temps

I've been monitoring underhood temps, not with a candy thermometer, with an
indoor/outdoor digital thermometer. I put the outside sensor right on the
bolt that so rudely protrudes from the endcap. While driving, temperatures
seem to be about 10 degrees or so above ambient air temperature. Stop at a
light or park for  awhile and the temp soars to 120° or better. So stuff is
cooking in there pretty good. And this is in the relative cold. Things are
much uglier in Texas or other southern climates.

I like the idea of some kind of heat shield as was posted to the list. Might
look into that fabrication this weekend. I'll have to go out and get another
indoor/outdoor thermometer to have simultaneous readings.:-(

On a cooler, less technical note, I have searched all over for the specs on
the factory stereo in the 95 VR-4. Anybody know anything except size of
speakers and that the dash are 8 amp with doors and rears being 4 amp? 240
watts total? How is is split or is it? Any wiring diagrams available? I've
got the CD-ROM manual but I don't seem to see it in there.

- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent

on 5/1/02 11:14 AM, Zobel, Kurt at KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com scribbled:

> The hood could be bowing due to lift generated towards the middle and rear,
> but still have positive pressure locally at the hood / windshield interface.
> That is, the bow is due to less pressure on top, not more pressure under the
> hood.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 13:00:32 -0700
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: K&N Filtercharger for Eclipse out of production

would it seem smarter for the community of 3s owners if that dumb@$$
casted bracket from the FIPK was made for say 35$ ? then anybody
wanting a FIPK could get one together for under 80$ right? If there
is enough interest I will make them...I want at least 10 people in
for the buy....those oval filters are only like 45 from any autoparts
store. So we find a comparable filter and make the adapter to make it
fit? sounds as easy as pie to me......any thoughts. we really dont
need to stick to the oval filter either do we? For that mater I could
easily do an intake tube for the NA as a kit (the kit pictured as an
FIPK) but we all know does not come with a tube.....I could easily
set this up if there was interest....
bobk.
93 R/T NA
Grabber green pearl
99 conversion
it is so close to being done....I can smell the carbon on the ticket
already :)

- ---- Original Message ----
From: roger.gerl@bluewin.ch
To: team3s@team3s.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: K&N Filtercharger for Eclipse out of production
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 20:55:00 +0200

>I recently runned out of stock of the Eclipse Filterchargers (the
>non-street
>legal cheap filter) and wahted to order a bunch of them. K&N now
>told me
>that it's not in production anymore and has been replaced by the
>already
>known FIPK ... on a higher price of course ! Summit sells it for
>around $112
>compared to the $165.00 for our FIPK.
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>www.rtec.ch

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 14:06:25 -0600
From: "Zach Sauerman" <axemaddock@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: hood temp

Okay, so the debate still goes on. I have made the decision that I am going
to leave my rear hood seal on this summer. NASCAR does breathe from that
area, so there is positive pressure. I had assuemd that air would flow out,
but if the string goes into the hood, that settles it. I don't think we want
air going that way. I will let the work the Mitsu engineers did with wind
tunnels alone in that department.
But how about removing those splash guards behind the intercoolers? I had
said a lot of heat was spilling out of there, but that wasn't my original
intent on doing that. I imagined the benefit of hardware cloth as being a
way to get air through the intercoolers and on its way instead of milling
around waiting to get out through those six slits in the splash guard. The
bad side effects of this mod is that on the right side the ABS computer is
exposed to water and dirt. On the left there isn't anything critical that
couldn't get dirty. I am going to fashion a cover for the ABS computer this
summer when I remove the splash guards again.
Are there any other thoughts on this mod?

Zach Sauerman
'94 Pearl Yellow TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 21:04:45 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: underhood temps

Yes, 5-20ºF above outside ambient temp is typical at the air filter when you
are moving (at least in my experience when I still had the stock MAS and used
my TMO datalogger to monitor the IAT sensor). And yes, things heat up when you
are still.

But soooo?????

No engine power is necessary when you are not moving, so who cares about the
temps? Well except maybe if you are concerned that the expensive SLA battery
you installed is overheating and corroding.

And while cooler IATs (intake air temp) are always better, those darn old
turbos just insist on heating the air to like 200º-350ºF - or even higher for
the gonzos out there. :)

My turbo and IC exit temp calculator:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm

If you had perfect intercoolers after the turbos, you would return that air
temp to external ambient value, *regardless* of what the initial IAT was!

Quick example (atm=14 psi, 75ºF; boost=15psi; compres eff=70%; IC eff=80%).

IAT = 75ºF
temp after IC=110ºF

IAT = 85ºF
temp after IC=113ºF

IAT = 120º
temp after IC=122ºF

This is why I have no concern at all for going to lengths to lower the IAT or
even caring what the turbo efficiency is. Time, money, and energy are much
better spent, IMHO, improving the intercooling.

For the above three cases, if IC efficiency was improved to 90% the air temp
at the plenum would respectively be: 93º, 94º, and 99ºF. Note, the last case
is *cooler* than the IAT by 23º!

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Desert Fox" <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
To: "Zobel, Kurt" <KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com>; <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: underhood temps

<snip>
While driving, temperatures seem to be about 10 degrees or so above ambient
air temperature. Stop at a light or park for  awhile and the temp soars to
120° or better. So stuff is cooking in there pretty good.
<snip>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 16:14:47 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian" <Brian.Geisel@COMPAQ.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ABS system removal

Yeah, it is a street car, but it hasn't had ABS for about 2 years now ;)  I was going to pull the fuse, but it broke first, so I didn't have to :)  So the ABS system is installed, but it isn't working, so there's no advantage to keeping it there.  As for having an accident... I don't mind fighting the case if I'd ever have to.

I know there is other, heavier stuff in the car, but I actually use the passenger seat, and I take the spare tire out to race (although I might use it), but keeping the ABS is kinda like carrying around a small load of bricks.  I'll definitely never use that.

Chris sent me a link that talks about replacing the system.  He didn't go as far as Cody to look for replacement lines and stuff, but he mentioned using some valves to keep the system biased correctly.  Anyone else have thoughts about that one?  I never really thought about whether the ABS system changes the way things work... even if it doesn't :-D

Do non-ABS systems use valves and so forth to put 70% braking power up front, or is it just handled by rotor size, etc.  Any ideas?

geis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cody [mailto:overclck@satx.rr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:16 PM
> To: dschilberg@pobox.com; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: ABS system removal
>
> The ABS pump is heavy, though, it does only weigh about 35
> -40 pounds...
>
> I came up with a way to remove it, but, I had troubles finding all the
> necessary brake fittings required in metric sizes...
>
> -Cody

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 15:28:30 -0700
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube

I find ignorance to be quite blissful too, but in my ignorance I want to be
a little smarter so that I can have more time to be ignorant.... Ergo - can
someone fill me in on what synthetic I might want to switch to. The
discussion on airplanes, assuming they use synthetics, seems to be pretty
strong evidence that synthetics might be justified.

Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 00:35:44 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube (Admin message)

Dear Members,

Please stop the chatting style and keep in mind that we want to have good
discussions with facts and ideas and no blabla.

Thanks for your understanding

Roger for the Admins

>
> > Sorry to hear you are having a bad day.
> >

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 15:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube

Redline fan here.

On Wed, 1 May 2002, Andrew Woll wrote:

> I find ignorance to be quite blissful too, but in my ignorance I want to be
> a little smarter so that I can have more time to be ignorant.... Ergo - can
> someone fill me in on what synthetic I might want to switch to. The
> discussion on airplanes, assuming they use synthetics, seems to be pretty
> strong evidence that synthetics might be justified.
>
> Andy

- ---
Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 18:57:45 EDT
From: M3000GTSL84@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: ABS system removal

Guys, maybe its me, but honestly, removing the ABS makes no sense. First, its
proven to reduce stopping distance-its a technology taken from 747s and
military jets that stop from a much higher speed then us. Second, 40 pounds?
the VR-4 weighs 3800, 4000 with a driver on board. Will 40 pounds make that
much of a difference? Plus insurance will be higher.

- -mike
97 SL

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 19:11:38 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Propane Injection (was alternative fuels)

At 01:18 5/1/2002, Matt Jannusch wrote:
>But, since we can run more boost and get lower intake temps (lowering it
>even AFTER the intercoolers have done what they can, even lowering the
>compressed air temp to potentially below ambient) there will be more air
>molecules shoved into the combustion chamber so we can extract more power
>from the mixture.  We are still running regular fuel along with the propane.
>Say for sake of argument you inject 30% as much propane as you do gasoline
>(feasible since the propane is gaseous and the gasoline is liquid).  Now you
>are down to only needing to make 3% more power to be equal to where you were
>before.  You can easily make up that 3% (and then some!) with more boost.

Sorry for beating this topic to death, but in my previous post I wrote
about a more extreme case of propane injection - a 100% propane injection.
There was no benefit unless I made some wrong assumptions.

A 30% propane injection will work better than a 100% injection, but not as
good as no propane injection at all.

A question to those who want to use propane injection to go faster: if
propane is so much better than the 110 octane gasoline, why not use 100% of
it?

Philip

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 16:41:45 -0700
From: "Team3S-Admin" <Team3S@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SynLube (Admin message #2)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> Dear Members,
> Please stop the chatting style and keep in mind that we want to have good
discussions with facts and ideas and no blabla.
> Thanks for your understanding
> Roger, for the Admins
- -------------------------------------->

As a second Admin note...:

We don't need chat, I agree.  But there is another issue that's been getting
out of hand lately as much as chat for just a few of you.  It's even more
irritating since most members DO take the time to post correctly...

If you're too busy to take the time to edit out all the unnecessary 'stuff'
from previous posts that's below your answer, we'd prefer that you not post
UNTIL you have time to send a proper ***trimmed*** note!  Most of us take
the time, but a few of you really abuse the system...

Sending a 1-line answer and leaving 50 previous lines below it WITHOUT
snipping it out, is just plain selfish and rude!!!  We have over 280 Digest
members who have to read all the days' posts in a single LONG email.  After
reading your 1-line answer, they have to read past 20, 50, 100 lines of all
that previous stuff to get to the next message.  THINK!  Keep only the part
of the message you're replying to (for reference), and edit out EVERYTHING
else.

We make all of our rules for a good reason-- to make participation here
enjoyable for everyone!  Please..., have some respect for the Digest
members, (and the rest of us who browse through your full note, looking for
a second part of your reply).  TRIM your posts!

Maybe from now on we'll switch main list "abusers" of the "Trim your Posts"
rule to the Digest for a few days, and give them a taste of their own
medicine(?)...  ;-)

Thanks for caring about the other members...

Forrest, for the Admins

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 19:47:41 -0400
From: "Chris McFarland" <cm1994@qx.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ABS system removal

I couldn't agree more...personally, I like ABS.  It's saved my butt a few
times.  I do not, however, agree with the price for a new ABS pump, ~$2000.
That is just insane.  I would attempt to remove the ABS from my car as a
last resort option only.

Chris

- -----Original Message-----
Guys, maybe its me, but honestly, removing the ABS makes no sense. First,
its
proven to reduce stopping distance-its a technology taken from 747s and
military jets that stop from a much higher speed then us. Second, 40 pounds?
the VR-4 weighs 3800, 4000 with a driver on board. Will 40 pounds make that
much of a difference? Plus insurance will be higher.

- -mike
97 SL

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 17:40:31 -0700
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Team3S: Oil Info

There is a big discussion on engine oils and how they work.  I found a nice
web page that gives good information on this topic.  It should be good
background info for anyone that is interested.

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 21:43:21 -0400
From: "Dennis and Anita Moore" <stealth@quixnet.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: pillar-pod

Jeff,

What does that pod arrangement do to your sightlines?  Does it add/increase
blindspots enough to cause much trouble?

Dennis

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:34:18 -0400
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: ABS system removal

Perhaps keeping ABS is preferred by most but by no means is it wanted by
all.  Some 3S owners pay close to a thousand dollars (or more) to drop 30
pounds in the form of a light weight hood or Volk rims (when other heavier
rims that look as good or better can be had for much less $$).  Just because
we are heavy stock doesn't mean we should stay that way.

I would like to get rid of my perfectly functioning ABS for the weight
savings.  I could probably almost finance it by selling my 50,000 mile used
ABS pump/actuator.  Besides I datalog when I race at the track and just
about any time I push my engine.  So when I'd potentially need it most it
doesn't work anyway because I have the TMO cable plugged into the OBD port.

I'm looking around the local salvage yards for a good non turbo 3S that came
without ABS and will investigate swapping everything over while the engine
is out.  Not saying it will happen for sure, but I'm looking into it.  One
downfall is I'm sure the stock prop. valve isn't optimal for my Brembo
fronts and stock rears.  I may need to find another way to adjust the front
to rear bias.

I've gotten my total weight savings over 200 lbs tastefully (in my opinion),
30 lbs here 25 there adds up quick.

Joe Gonsowski
'92 & '96 R/T TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 22:20:20 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Propane Injection (was alternative fuels)

> A question to those who want to use propane injection to go faster: if
> propane is so much better than the 110 octane gasoline, why not use 100%
of
> it?

...because most of us use our cars as daily drivers as well.  Its a little
tougher to find a gas station that will fill up a pure-propane vehicle.
Most stations aren't set up to do it, they do cylinder exchange (if at all -
at least around my area).  The trucks that use propane for fuel are usually
fleet vehicles which have their own filling terminals.

Running 110 octane gasoline also gets expensive in a hurry, and as I
mentioned before most 110 octane gasoline is leaded which kills O2 sensors.
At least in my area the highest octane unleaded obtainable is 100 octane and
is $4.00 a gallon.

Each way has benefits and drawbacks - it is up to the individual to decide
which method is appropriate for their needs.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 23:44:38 -0400
From: "Rodriguez, Elpidio   x35617d1" <x35617@exmail.usma.army.mil>
Subject: Team3S: Engine Cleaning

The person I bought my car from must have driven it alot on dirt roads or
something cuz the engine is dusty as hell. Also, careless oil changers
spilled oil around the oil cap area. Bottom line is that the engine looks
pretty nasty. I was wondering if any of you ever "washed" your engine before
and what cleaner product you used. I've seen cheap engine degreasers and
that sort of stuff at auto parts stores but that requires washing it off
with water. Will this screw up my engine? Recommendations besides taking out
the engine and hand wiping it down?

- -ROD

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 22:33:33 -0700
From: John Sheehan <Johns@KYSO.com>
Subject: Team3S: Exhaust Systems

Has anyone tried Altered Atmosphere's products ? How are their exhaust
system's ?

 Thank you, John

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 02:28:29 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Systems

John -- From what I saw first-hand on their cars (the purple one with 99
conversion is quite a dream to behold).  This was at East Coast
Gathering last year when they demonstrated their AWD dyno.  Another
thing of beauty.

There are some pics on the links from East Coast.

But the exhaust tips in my mind were to low (not enough ground
clearance) and were too nice to beat up driving around on the street.
I'm sure this is because the cars had been lowered.  It did sound nice
and was about a 3" pipe coming back.  Someone has pictures of a car on
the lift and the Altered Atmosphere exhaust in place.  The thing has
huge pipes.

That's all I can comment other than the Team3S website is down right now
so I can't send the links to pix I had..

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
www.schilberg.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 07:23:41 -0400
From: romachka21@netscape.net (Roman)
Subject: RE: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Systems

I have been at the shop about a dozen times, when they were building my car. The exhausts that they make are custom built to a car. The one that I liked is a 3.5 inch main pipe "NO CAT" to 2x3.0 inch with Apex N1 mufflers. Those things will look mean and sound that way. I am not sure of the price, but I bet its pricy.
Can we have an arrangment with them "Mike is the owner" so that we get a team discount?

Roman G.
94 VR-4 just installed AVC-R and the 1200 HP preped motor feels good.
I am going to the Ocean City Gathering that AAM is hosting and on Friday may get some dyno time. Will let you know what # I get with the new motor gutted precats, intake and the AVC-R.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 08:58:30 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian" <Brian.Geisel@COMPAQ.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ABS system removal

Actually, it's been an assumption by us american folk I suppose, that ABS stops quicker.  ABS is not designed to stop your car quicker; it is designed to stop your car quicker if your reaction is to lock your brakes, rather than stopping correctly.  The average american driver not only doesn't know how to drive, but usually doesn't care to learn (no - this whole list needn't get offended - you're probably one of the ones who cares :).  I have never seen an independent test where ABS stopped quicker.

Car and Driver did a test a year or so ago.  Locking the brakes from 100mph stopped the car 8 feet shorter than ABS!  A professional driver in the same car with ABS disabled stopped the car like 30 or so feet shorter.  From smaller speeds, ABS was sometimes faster than locking the brakes, but usually only by a few feet - the professional driver was ALWAYS stopping sooner.

As for the weight, no 40 lbs. isn't a lot, but when you strip 20 here, then 40 there, then 50 somewhere else, pretty soon you've lost 300 lbs.  That will make a significant difference in the 1/4 mi.  If you don't believe me... try running it just once with your 98 lb. girlfriend.  It's usually good for a full .1 seconds ;)

geis

PS - please read this as informative, not flaming.  I definitely don't aim this at an individual, and have no intention of upsetting anyone ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M3000GTSL84@aol.com [mailto:M3000GTSL84@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 6:58 PM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: ABS system removal
>
> Guys, maybe its me, but honestly, removing the ABS makes no
> sense. First, its
> proven to reduce stopping distance-its a technology taken
> from 747s and
> military jets that stop from a much higher speed then us.
> Second, 40 pounds?
> the VR-4 weighs 3800, 4000 with a driver on board. Will 40
> pounds make that
> much of a difference? Plus insurance will be higher.
>
> -mike
> 97 SL

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:23:18 -0400
From: "Rodriguez, Elpidio   x35617d1" <x35617@exmail.usma.army.mil>
Subject: Team3S: Driveshaft

Fellas, this is a message my brother sent me:

"There is still a slight vibration/noise coming from underneath the car when
driving. Replaced the wheel bearings and that significantly reduced the
rattling noise it was making but a slighter one is now heard/felt.  I got
under the car and looked at the half-shaft connector. I moved the shaft
around and there was some 'play' to it. It moved up and down."

What do you guys think? Probably not normal, right? Isn't there some sort of
bearings in there that might be screwed up? Thanks.

- -ROD

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 08:35:25 -0700
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: ABS system removal

You are right Brian. ABS does not necessarily stop a car in less distance.
However, the short sacrafice in distance is made up for by the main purpose
of ABS and that is the ability to maintain control of your steering while in
a panic stop. Without ABS you will lose control no matter how good a driver
you are. With ABS you will continue to have control. It is that simple. A
human being simply cannot pulse the brakes as fast as an ABS computer nor
can a human make the pulse right on the point where lockup occurs.

Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 08:37:25 -0700
From: Yoss <yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: ABS system removal

On Thu, May 02, 2002, Geisel, Brian <Brian.Geisel@COMPAQ.com> wrote:
> Actually, it's been an assumption by us american folk I suppose, that ABS
> stops quicker.  ABS is not designed to stop your car quicker; it is designed
> to stop your car quicker if your reaction is to lock your brakes, rather
> than stopping correctly. 

There is yet another important function that ABS performs: Ability to steer
while braking - this is when most of the lockup occurs that needs to be
restrained.

> The average american driver not only doesn't know how to drive, but usually
> doesn't care to learn (no - this whole list needn't get offended - you're
> probably one of the ones who cares :). 

This may be true, but even the world's best and professional drivers lock up
their wheels - watch F1 if you don't believe me.

> Car and Driver did a test a year or so ago.  Locking the brakes from 100mph
> stopped the car 8 feet shorter than ABS! 

Did they also perform steering tests while braking?  If not, I don't see much
use for the above demonstration.

> PS - please read this as informative, not flaming.  I definitely don't aim
> this at an individual, and have no intention of upsetting anyone ;)

I'm not flaming, but just pointing out that you only provided proof for one of
the uses of ABS, but not the more important one.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 09:43:19 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Driveshaft

Try replacing the driveshaft carrier bearings.

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Rodriguez, Elpidio x35617d1
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:23 AM
To: 'Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st '
Subject: Team3S: Driveshaft

Fellas, this is a message my brother sent me:

"There is still a slight vibration/noise coming from underneath the car
when driving. Replaced the wheel bearings and that significantly reduced
the rattling noise it was making but a slighter one is now heard/felt.
I got under the car and looked at the half-shaft connector. I moved the
shaft around and there was some 'play' to it. It moved up and down."

What do you guys think? Probably not normal, right? Isn't there some
sort of bearings in there that might be screwed up? Thanks.

- -ROD

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 11:54:54 -0500
From: "Black, Dave (ICT)" <dblai@allstate.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Propane Injection (was alternative fuels)

The government will provide some sort of tax rebate upwards of several
thousand dollars if you perform a full propane conversion.  I don't really
know the details of this though.

Dave 95VR4
http://www.daveblack.net

> A question to those who want to use propane injection to go faster: if
> propane is so much better than the 110 octane gasoline, why not use 100%
of
> it?

...because most of us use our cars as daily drivers as well.  Its a little
tougher to find a gas station that will fill up a pure-propane vehicle.
Most stations aren't set up to do it, they do cylinder exchange (if at all -
at least around my area).  The trucks that use propane for fuel are usually
fleet vehicles which have their own filling terminals.

Running 110 octane gasoline also gets expensive in a hurry, and as I
mentioned before most 110 octane gasoline is leaded which kills O2 sensors.
At least in my area the highest octane unleaded obtainable is 100 octane and
is $4.00 a gallon.

Each way has benefits and drawbacks - it is up to the individual to decide
which method is appropriate for their needs.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 09:58:12 -0700
From: Yoss <yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Propane Injection (was alternative fuels)

On Thu, May 02, 2002, Black, Dave (ICT) <dblai@allstate.com> wrote:
> Most stations aren't set up to do it, they do cylinder exchange (if at all -
> at least around my area).  The trucks that use propane for fuel are usually
> fleet vehicles which have their own filling terminals.

This is mostly true; however, another big consumer of pump-type fillable
propane is the Recreational Vehicle.  You may have to drive your car to a
campsite to utilize this feature :-)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 10:09:24 -0700
From: "tri" <thn@dexray.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N Filtercharger for Eclipse out of production

That would be really cool if you could make an intake tube. However, your
idea of making an adapter and just fitting a universal K&N FIPK has been
done by numerous people. www.lightningmotorsports.com sells an adapter for
$30 and the FIPK for $39. This is for the 4.5" inlet that the Universal K&N
FIPK has. I'm not sure if the filter adapter is for the eclipse or for the
3s, but from what I've seen and read, it shouldn't really matter. The bolt
hole dimensions on that filter adapter is 2 3/8" and 4 1/4" center to
center. If anyone knows or wants to measure their MAS to make sure, that'd
be great.Also, www.extrememotorsports.com has an adapter that is made for
the 3s, but it's $60. As for me, I bought my adapter for $26 shipped off
ebay. There's someone in southern CA who sells them at a starting price of
$12.99. I then purchased my S&B 7" powerstack filter from
www.intenseperfomance.com . It cost me $55 and I'm very happy with the
results. I think that the 8" powerstack filter would work as well, but I
wanted to try doing a "ram air" effect sometime in the future and the 8"
would have been too large for my idea.

I'd be very interested in the intake tube for an n/a if you could make a
polished on at a reasonable price.

Tri
99 SOHC
Front & Rear strut bars, 7" Powerstack filter
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
To: <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>; <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: K&N Filtercharger for Eclipse out of production

> would it seem smarter for the community of 3s owners if that dumb@$$
> casted bracket from the FIPK was made for say 35$ ? then anybody
> wanting a FIPK could get one together for under 80$ right? If there
> is enough interest I will make them...I want at least 10 people in
> for the buy....those oval filters are only like 45 from any autoparts
> store. So we find a comparable filter and make the adapter to make it
> fit? sounds as easy as pie to me......any thoughts. we really dont
> need to stick to the oval filter either do we? For that mater I could
> easily do an intake tube for the NA as a kit (the kit pictured as an
> FIPK) but we all know does not come with a tube.....I could easily
> set this up if there was interest....
> bobk.
> 93 R/T NA
> Grabber green pearl
> 99 conversion
> it is so close to being done....I can smell the carbon on the ticket
> already :)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 12:16:47 -0500
From: "Geisel, Brian" <Brian.Geisel@COMPAQ.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ABS system removal

Yoss, didn't take it as a flame bud, you've got a good point :)

The tests did not take steering into account.  So you're definitely right on that account, in adverse weather conditions, or hard braking, ABS does a good job of allowing the car to maintain steering ability.  ABS definitely has that advantage.

I might argue then that ABS has advantages and disadvantages both.  For me, faster straight stopping and possibly lighter weight (if I actually remove the system) is worth the penalty of less controlled steering during hard braking and the necessity to correctly brake in stops.  The day-to-day driving I do tends to make that better for me.

geis

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 2 May 2002 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Thomas Labonte <tnl7455@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Paint/clear coat

I've got a green 92 VR-4 whose paint needs some
serious help.  It would seem that the previous owner
was fond of washing it with a scotch-brite pad.  One
thing I can't seem to figure out is if it has a clear
coat or not.  Any idea how I can find this out?  And
if it does have a clear coat, does anyone have any
suggestions as to how I should go about restoring it?
I've seen Jeff Lucius' "Amateur's Guide to Paint
Restoration", but it states that the procedure will
destory a clear coat (if you have one).
Thanks.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 10:46:01 -0700
From: "Dean Benz" <dbenz@VCHillClimb.org>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine Cleaning

While I haven't done it on my 3S yet except on my leaky trans, I have done this on a number of different cars.

First, pick up 2-4 times as much engine degreaser/cleaner as you think you need and good high power hose nozzle. (You can always return anything yo udon't use) I have used Gunk, and a Citrus based product I can't remember the name of.  Follow their instructions!

That said, here are some things I have found that help. (Standard Disclaimers apply. Use these at your own risk)

Setup a set of ramps or get out the jack and jack stands so you can get the nose up in the air. Take off any plastic or other covers top and bottom. Put on some ratty clothes cause you are gonna get wet and messy.

Figure out what all you are going to need to keep from getting wet, and actually find the right combination of plastic bags, rags rubber bands, clamps etc. it will take to do it, and test fit everything. (Air intake, distributor, coil, and dipsticks are the usual targets. Make sure your brake fluid and other filler caps are tight as well.)

Drive around until the engine and everything else in the engine compartment is warm. 5-10 minutes? You don't want it HOT, so stay out of the turbos etc. The heat will help loosen up the grease, and help dry the water when you are done.

Put the car in the air, and seal everything up you figured out earlier. Hopefully nothing is so hot it will melt the plastic, but be careful.

Get under there and coat everything you can see/reach bottom to top, back to front. I know it runs down, but the only way to make sure you get everything on the bottom is to start there. Back to front is so you aren't dripping on yourself (as much). I would spray everything from frame rails to the firewall, making sure I hit any inside corners with a good dose as stuff just piles up in there. Now get up on top and hit anything you couldn't reach from below. Again, bottom to top, back to front.

Let it work for a couple of minutes and get out the hose and blast the junk off in the same order. Being conscious of where your plastic bags are etc. so you don't blast them off.

After the dripping stops, get back under there and see what you missed and do those areas again. Sometimes a big flat blade screwdriver, a putty knife, or a steel wire brush for the tough spots helps.

Let everything dry, take off your bags, and let everything dry some more. The longer you let it dry the better, especially hood open facing the sun.

Check to make sure you didn't knock any connectors loose on any sensors etc.. Double check you got every plastic bag off, especially on the air intake and start it up. If you did it all right, it should start and run as well as before. If it is a little rough, let it run, you probably got some water somewhere, and letting it idle up to temp should clear it up. If it runs real bad, shut it down, and let it dry some more, and triple check you got all the bags, rags etc. and that all the wires go where they are supposed to.

What most people forget to do is to run it up on ramps a week or so later and see where/if they have leaks. They are much easier to find on a clean engine/trans/whatever. Fix them, clean those areas back up and repeat until you have a leak free engine compartment!

Good luck

- -Dean

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #829
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