> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:13:12 -0500
> From: "John Monnin" <John.Monnin@3Si.zzn.com>
> Subject: Team3S: RE: ball joind supplier
>
> Check out this 3si thread for a guy who claims he
> can get ball
> joints, but not is USA.
>
> http://209.58.199.225/vbb/showthread.php?
> s=bf5730dc42472143f66a03235de2a8d4&threadid=51599
>
> SAS (shock absorber services ) Part #SAS-B404
> Shock Absorber Services Ltd
> 15 Ryan Plc Manukau City Auckland
> Phone: 09 2623684
>
> The guy who found this is:
> sirbbobivis@hotmail.com
>
> I would consider this a medium to high risk
> proposition because I
> don't know of anyone who has actually bought one
> from him,
>
> If anyone actually is able to get these please post
> the board.
>
> John Monnin
> john.monnin@3si.zzn.com
> 1991 VR-4 4-bolt main conversion
> National gathering road course event organizer

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 01:45:46 -0500
From: "Bill vp" <billvp@highstream.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: [Sorta Long] ECU Upgrade

is there a good team3/S source that I could send my ecu and capacitors to
and have them replace them for a minimal cost?

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Roger Gerl
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 2:28 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: [Sorta Long] ECU Upgrade

> What we really need around here is somebody who can fix ECUs when they
break -- i.e, diagnose and repair component failures, such as capacitors and
such.

There are services around that do that already :)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 09:51:56 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Faulty ARM1 or ECU?

> Instead of cycling in closed loop and cycling faster with increased load
and
> rpm, sometimes the led on the ARM1 meter "sticks" down in the orange
(lean)
> area. If I floor it, it moves up a bit to the green area, but no more.
> Likewise, if I hit the test button on the SMC alky kit, it hardly moves.

The O2 sensors do not like alkys or NO2 ! Depending on the amount sprayed in
their live is very shortened. IO have not seen any ARM1 not workign
correctly (i'ts only a voltmeter !).

> Another strange symptom - I plugged in the pocketlogger and it was showing
> normal closed loop fast cycling and the led on the ARM was "sticking"
around
> the red/orange area.

So, what O2 sensor are you lookig at with the ARM and what with the
Datalogger ?

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 14:39:58 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: injecter question

>> ---------- Original Message -------------
>> Subject: Team3S: injecter question
>> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:57:21 -0500
>> From: "Tim & Marina Furbush" <furbush4@netzero.net>
>> To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>
>> What the difference between base Stealth SHOC
>> and the injecter in a 3000gt vr4. AND would
>> they work in a Stealth SHOC???

If you don't mind a long, semi-definitive answer, please read on. For the
short answer, skip to the bottom.

Fuel injectors are described using the following characteristics:
1. Flow rate
- by volume = cc/min
- by mass = lb/hr
2. Internal coil resistance
- low (2-5 ohm)
- high (13-22 ohm)
3. Drive signal
- peak-hold
- saturated
4. Fuel rail attachment
- top feed
- side feed
5. Valve design
- pintle
- disk
- ball

1. Flow rate.
This is the nominal amount of fuel released by the injector when it is in
a "static" state, that is, the valve is held open for a certain time period
and the amount of fuel released is measured. RC Engineering performs these
tests on injectors and issues a report like the one below (for my stock turbo
injectors).

http://www.stealth316.com/2-rc_inj_380.htm

When the volume of fuel is measured, the flow is usually reported in cc/min
(cubic centimeters per minute). When the fuel mass is measured, flow is
reported in lb/hr (pounds per hour). To convert between the two types of
measurements, either divide cc/min by 10.5 or multiply lb/hr by 10.5. This
conversion factor is derived from the average density pf gasoline which is
about 6 lbs/gal. However, gasoline density can range from 5.76 to 6.34 lb/gal
(690 to 760 g/L, grams per liter).

2. Internal coil resistance
There is a solenoid inside the injector that opens the valve when current
flows. A spring closes the valve when current is turned off. The resistance of
the solenoid is basically a function of wire size and the number of turns in
the coil. Low-resistance injectors have coils with larger-diameter wires and
fewer turns. This allows the coil to open the valve more quickly. Also, less
voltage is required to obtain optimal current flow in the solenoid.

3. Drive signal
Injectors release fuel when the valve opens. Fuel flow is relatively constant
once the valve is open, so the longer the valve is open (the drive time), the
more fuel flows. The valve opens when current flows through the injector
solenoid. Typically, battery voltage is applied to the injector and the
circuit is completed through a ground path inside the engine control module
(ECM). Using transistors, the ECM closes and opens the connection to ground to
open and close the injector, respectively.

The current flowing through the solenoid is determined by the total resistance
in the circuit (wires and resistors) and the battery voltage. In our cars, the
current path goes from the battery, through various fuses and the ignition
switch, then through the MFI (aka engine control) relay to the injector with
the ECM completing the path to ground. The turbo models have a resistor
between the MFI relay and the injectors; the non-turbo models do not have this
resistor. More on this below.

Typically for peak-hold injectors, the initial current to the injectors peaks
for a very short time around 4 amps or so to open the valve quickly. Then the
current drops to about 1 amp (or the minimum amount) to hold the valve open.
Peak .... hold.

For saturated-type injectors, the full battery voltage is applied the
injector. The current is limited by the internal resistance of the solenoid.
For 12 volts applied and an internal resistance of 12 ohms, a 1 amp current
flows (E = I x R; volts = amps times ohms; or amps equal volts divided by
ohms).

The current rise time may be a bit slower and the duration of the pulse (that
is, the amount of time current is applied) a bit longer for saturated
injectors than for peak-hold injectors. The trade-off is that lower current of
the saturated injector allows for better longevity but slower fuel injection
response than the peak-hold injectors.

As far as I can tell, our turbo models do not use the "typical" peak-hold
strategy mentioned above, that is, the ECM does not control the resistance in
the circuit to change voltage/amps to the injector. Instead, Mitsubishi uses a
simpler (cruder?) system. A resistor is placed between the MFI relay and the
injector to lower the current to the injector. Let's do the math. Assume there
is a nominal 12 volts in the circuit. The resistor has a value of about 6
ohms. For a series circuit such as this, we add up the all the resistances to
get total the total resistance: 6 (resistor) plus 2 (injector) is 8 ohms. If
12 volts are supplied, then there are 12 divided by 8 or 1.5 amps in the
circuit. The actual current is of course determined by the actual system
voltage and the actual resistances of the components mentioned.

The disadvantage of this system is that heat losses are introduced by the
resistor plus the high peak amperage/volts are not supplied to the solenoid.
The result is an injector that is faster than the typical saturated type
because of the faster responding solenoid (less turns, thicker wires), but the
response (opening time) is longer (less "crisp") than the typical peak-hold.
The advantage is that the ECM can use the same circuitry to drive both turbo
and non-turbo injectors.

The major difference then for our two setups is in the programming of the ECM.
The service manuals show that a longer drive time is used for the non-turbo
models than for the turbo models. For example, at idle the standard value for
the drive time is 1.7 to 2.9 ms for turbo models but 2.5 to 3.7 ms for non-
turbo models. The ECM further adjusts drive time based on the actual system
voltage; a higher voltage would reduce drive time. Drive time is also adjusted
for closed loop operation in the form or fuel "trims" to compensate for
changes in injector resistance, clogging of the injectors, etc.

If installing our turbo injectors in our DOHC non-turbo engines, then the
turbo's resistor must be added to keep from overheating the injectors. An
airflow signal conditioner, such as the Apex'i S-AFC, should be able to
compensate for the differences in drive time. The ECM itself should not care
about the switch.

OK, almost done.

4. Fuel rail attachment.
The fuel rail attaches to the top of our injectors. This is called a top feed
design. Other injectors use a side (or galley) feed design where the rail
encircles the injector. Toyota and Nissan use this side-feed design, while
Honda and Mitsubishi uses the top-feed design.

5. Valve design.
There are three basic designs used with variations on each: pintle, disk, and
ball.

The pintle design is the earliest design but still popular. And it is the
design used on our cars. The solenoid lifts the pintle out of an orifice to
release fuel. For our DOHC models, there is an additional orifice with
a "figure 8" design, as can be seen on my web page below (the pintle is also
visible).

http://www.stealth316.com/2-inj360.htm

The problems with the pintle design include increased chance of clogging in
the small orifice area, slower response time because of heavier armatures used
to lift the pintle, and reduced service life.

The ball-type injector uses a ball (actaully half a sphere) to close the
metering orifice, rather than a pintle. This allows the use of a lighter
armature and so response time is faster than for pintle types. There is also
less wear for a longer service life. The orifice can be designed with multiple
openings for a wider spray pattern plus more fuel can be delivered for a given
drive time.

The disk-type injector eliminates the armature and the solenoid acts directly
on the flat disk through the core of the injector body. The flat disk rests on
a seat that has an orifice in it. This arrangement is even lighter than the
ball-type for an even faster response time. This disk and seat design also
results in less deposit build up at the orifice and longer service life.

If upgrading our injectors, the turbo owners should consider ball or disk type
injectors because the faster response time of the injector (over the pintle
style) should partially offset the lack of true peak-hold circuitry in our
setup.

=========================================
Short answer
=========================================
Non-turbo injectors:
- - 210 cc/min (model number depends on the year of production and whether the
engine is SOHC or DOHC. The service manuals have the details.)
- - high resistance, 12-16 ohms
- - long-duration drive signal
- - top feed fuel rail
- - pintle valve

Turbo injectors:
- - 360 cc/min (same model number for all years, BDL360)
- - low resistance, 2-3 ohms, with a 5.5-6.5 ohm resistor in-line with the
injectors to reduce current
- - short-duration drive signal
- - top feed fuel rail
- - pintle valve
If installing our turbo injectors in our DOHC non-turbo engines, then the
turbo's resistor must be added to keep from overheating the injectors. An
airflow signal conditioner, such as the Apex'i S-AFC, should be able to
compensate for the differences in drive time. The ECM itself should not care
about the switch.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: menalteed <menalteed@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: [Sorta Long] ECU Upgrade

I was looking for a place that gave repair information
for our ECU. Techno Motive had some information on it.
They gave a basic repair informaation page.
http://www.tmo.com/howto/ecu1g/caps.htm

Peter 92 Stealth

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 12:45:33 EDT
From: RDO26@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: injector question-related topic

As always thank you Jeff for exhaustively answering the topic on hand. So, my
related question is this. Has anyone ever heard of or done a DIY injectors
tester? I would think with some fuel system parts scavenged off a fuel
injected car (maybe including an ECU?), some parts cleaner or similarly less
volatile liquid, a measured container and a stopwatch, we could test our own
injectors for cc/min flow. Maybe its not something everyone would need, but
it could help you in immediately knowing how well matched your injectors are
or if you have a bad injector, especially when you are putting together mixed
sets. I suppose runing injecor clearner directly though it could also help,
what with this shortened and low volume system and all...

And yes, I know that we can send it to RC to have it done. What does it cost
nowadays, $150 for 4?

Ron
(Trying to save as much money as possible at this point)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 19:56:44 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: injector question-related topic

> Has anyone ever heard of or done a DIY injectors tester?

Not heard of yet but this is the plan :

Roger's minimum cost injector tester :

- - fuel cell (cheap one from summit racing)
- - external small fuel pump that is able to provide 43 psi (old external
pump)
- - cheap fuel rail to correctly seal the injector (an old DMS one)
- - adjustable fuel pressure regulator and return line (stock DSM, 3S)
- - Pressure meter to control the 43psi (Autometer)
- - now build a part that simulates the intake manifold and at its bottom you
should be able
to clamp on a small cup. The injector sprays into this cup (pressure must
be able to relief).
- - timer chip NE555 with digital output that drives a power transistor that
activates the injector
- - a button that engages the timer that keeps the injector open 10 second
- - the sprayed fluid (no fast fluctuating alcohol or very thin oil with the
viscousity of fuel)
should then be 120 ccm for a 720cc injector
- - use an electronic balance to weight the 120 ccm beforehand as this would
eliminate
any complicated calculation of fuel weight :)
- - now weight the same fluid again. Is the weight 10% less (108 ccm) then the
injector is
only able to flow 10% less than specified = 648cc.
- - the digital balance should be able to measure gramms or less. If this
would be done with a
fluid that weights 1000g / liter then the desired 120cc results in 120g.
If the resolution of the
balance is 1 gramms then 1 gramm difference results in 0.83%. I think this
is very accurate.
My kitchen balance does have a 1% error and cost was $15. Of course a
better balance would
provide much better results.

I have no need to do this right now so anyone can go on and build it up :)

You want to know how to clean the injectors properly ?

Put an adapter onto the fuel rails (Mitsu part) it has an 1/8 npt port for a
fuel pressure sensor. Get a reusable fuel filter, cap off the other end and
install an AN-adapter to 1/8 NPT on the other fill it with the acid called
injector cleaner and install it onto the fuel rail adapter. As no fuel
pressure is in the line the acid runs into the fuel rail. Now crank the
engine and the injectors got cleaned :)

Good cleaning
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 16:46:34 -0400
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: injector question-related topic

On some cars, like a Neon, where the injectors are attacked to the fuel
rail, you could just remove the fuel rail, snap the injectors into it,
crank the engine and watch the injectors squirt. Just do not smoke when you
do this. You could put rubber hoses on each of the injectors while you are
going this for safety, and also if you direct those hoses into measurement
cups you could compare the amount of fuel each injector flows. Rig up a
rail like this, which holds injectors in place, and here you have a cheap
injectors tester.

You could fill the gas tank with injector cleaner and run it through the
injectors, but I cannot guarantee that it won't dissolve the fuel pump or
the fuel filter. The injector cleaner looks and smells pretty harmless and
it does not dissolve body paint, but still, do it at your own risk.

Alternatively, you could install a reservoir filled with the injector
cleaner before the fuel rail and crank the engine until the gasoline
replaces most of the injector cleaner.

A third way is to make a separate reservoir, fill it with injector cleaner,
connect it to the fuel rail, and pressurize it to 43 psi with a tire pump.

Philip

At 12:45 PM 4/7/2002, RDO26@aol.com wrote:
>As always thank you Jeff for exhaustively answering the topic on hand. So,
>my related question is this. Has anyone ever heard of or done a DIY
>injectors tester? I would think with some fuel system parts scavenged off
>a fuel injected car (maybe including an ECU?), some parts cleaner or
>similarly less volatile liquid, a measured container and a stopwatch, we
>could test our own injectors for cc/min flow. Maybe its not something
>everyone would need, but it could help you in immediately knowing how well
>matched your injectors are or if you have a bad injector, especially when
>you are putting together mixed sets. I suppose runing injecor clearner
>directly though it could also help, what with this shortened and low
>volume system and all...

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 05:21:16 +0800
From: "John Stegall III" <jstegall@programmer.net>
Subject: Team3S: Lawsuit Against Mitsu

Ahh well team, I guess I just set it off... haven't heard it before. Yesterday (saturday) I was rounding a corner at 13 MPH... 90 degree turn on an inverse banked curved and railed into a Toyota Camry. Only damaged my fender (have pictures) though the camry was thrashed. The cause of the accident? I have several witnesses who all say they saw my back wheels "just stop" while my front wheels were still spinning. I tried to move the car in neutral to roll down the hill, but the back wheels absolutely would not move (and no, the parking break was not up!). When the two truck driver got there, we finally managed to get the car up onto the tow bed. This is the second time I've had problems with the tranny, and I'm sure without a doubt that this was caused by the xfer case locking up my back wheels.

I'm filing a lawsuit against mitsu, and I know someone else had posted that they were doing it as well, and was getting information (I gave them my info). I'd like to get as much info as possible for this, especially since I have half a dozen witnesses who are all saying the same thing about the wheels.

Thanks guys

John
1994 3000GT VR-4 (wrecked)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:50:19 -0500
From: "Trevor James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Faulty ARM1 or ECU?

Roger...do you have any proof that alcohol and N2O ruins O2 sensors are you
just making stuff up again?

Trevor
96 R/T TT, 11.82@116.1, 93 Octane & Plain Radials
97 VR-4 w/45k (For Sale!)
94 300ZX TT w/52k

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Faulty ARM1 or ECU?

> > Instead of cycling in closed loop and cycling faster with increased load
> and
> > rpm, sometimes the led on the ARM1 meter "sticks" down in the orange
> (lean)
> > area. If I floor it, it moves up a bit to the green area, but no more.
> > Likewise, if I hit the test button on the SMC alky kit, it hardly moves.
>
> The O2 sensors do not like alkys or NO2 ! Depending on the amount sprayed
in
> their live is very shortened. IO have not seen any ARM1 not workign
> correctly (i'ts only a voltmeter !).
>
> > Another strange symptom - I plugged in the pocketlogger and it was
showing
> > normal closed loop fast cycling and the led on the ARM was "sticking"
> around
> > the red/orange area.
>
> So, what O2 sensor are you lookig at with the ARM and what with the
> Datalogger ?
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
> www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:00:05 EDT
From: M3000GTSL84@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: More Brakes

Gotta love brakes. It appears its time for a set of new pads for my SL. i saw
the stillin metal matrix pads, and vented cross drilled rotors. Anybody use
these items and like them? the pads from mitsu are the same price, so if i
can upgrade, then now seems like the best time.

- -mike
97 SL

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 20:13:09 -0400
From: "Chris" <cm1994@qx.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Lawsuit Against Mitsu

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of John Stegall III
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 5:21 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Lawsuit Against Mitsu

Well, good luck with the law suit. I hate hearing news like this, it makes
me paranoid to drive my car.

Chris
1993 Stealth R/T TT

I'm filing a lawsuit against mitsu, and I know someone else had posted that
they were doing it as well, and was getting information (I gave them my
info). I'd like to get as much info as possible for this, especially since
I have half a dozen witnesses who are all saying the same thing about the
wheels.

Thanks guys

John
1994 3000GT VR-4 (wrecked)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:25:17 -0700
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Team3S: cam specs

Anybody have the number for the cam lobe separation on the turbo car.
I see that Dynamic is selling a 112º cam but I don't know what the stock
number is. How about a spec sheet on the cam --- since we have an
aftermarket cam there must be a spec sheet around.

Anybody ever measure the exhaust backpressure at various boost values.
I thought Mikael Kenson had done it at one time ???

With 33º of static overlap [ anybody know the numbers at .050" ] it looks
like we could easily get exhaust gas reversion, especially with the small
turbine housing trying to push 25+ PSI.

Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:30:11 +0800
From: "John Stegall III" <jstegall@programmer.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Lawsuit Against Mitsu

Won't stop me. I'm having the car fixed back up, get a new tranny (hopefully paid for by insurance) and I'll get back on the road. So far on the list, I've heard that there were no instances (or very few) of it ever happening and it wasn't a major problem, but that it was certainly *possible*. I never really expected to have it happen to me, but I was damn happy that it only happened at 13MPH rather than 65+ in traffic. Its happened to me one other time on the road that I know for sure, on a toll road with no traffic, as I could not move the car because the back wheels would not turn. One other time I thought it happened, but I'm not sure if I can confirm it, because after a letter the car sit for a few minutes, I managed to get the car moving again. But even after this, I still wouldn't give up my car for anything else on the market. Especially now... we could see that x-fer case recall real soon.

John

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 00:43:16 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <mjannusch@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Lawsuit Against Mitsu

John Stegall III wrote:

>Ahh well team, I guess I just set it off... haven't heard it before. Yesterday (saturday) I was rounding a corner at 13 MPH... 90 degree turn on an inverse banked curved and railed into a Toyota Camry.
>
Sorry to hear about your accident, but glad you are okay!

If you get a chance, check the fluid level in the transfer case, and
look near the yoke end up of where the driveshaft slides in. If there's
oil slung all over the underside of the car around that area then it
might be a similar failure to the one that caused the DSM driveshaft
yoke / transfercase recalls.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #805
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