Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Saturday, March 23 2002   Volume 01 : Number 791




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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:11:28 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Boost II

My daughter gave me a ride back to Fast and Furious, here in Cedar Rapids, to pick up my Talon. She brought her 91 Stealth, and asked the guys to take a look at the boost settings, because I had been complaining that her car wasn't as fast as it oughta be. Trent, the owner, took a quick spin in it, came back and opened the hood, and pronounced that the DSBC was not installed properly. Five minutes later he had rearranged the tubing (grumbling about amateurs who try to install speed equipment), then he and a tuner took a five minute ride to set the DSBC, and now it runs like it should.

You cannot imagine how nice it is to have somebody in town here who understands our cars!

A potential buyer is driving over from Chicago to look at the Stealth tomorrow, but now that Cathy has discovered the marvels of proper boost, I don't think she wants to sell it!

Rich/slow old poop

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:47:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Boost II

Jeesh..the car is immaterial.

The instructions just need to be read.

Once you start doing your own work Rich, you'll understand just how
_easy_ it really all is.

- ---
Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:50:58 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 13g's vs. 9B's

13g's can't hold more boost than 9B's on the top end?  Roger, you better
notify my 13g's right away, Otherwise, I think you've been driving on 9B's
all along.  My 13g's hold 17psi on the track all day long.  To anyone who's
ever replaced their 9B's with 13g's, the difference in the compressor size
is obvious.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Pierce" <piercera@pacbell.net>
To: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Boost controller is in!

Sorry Roger, I typed too fast - I should have said "I've heard" they will
hold 17 psi to Redline - I admit my mistake (I really wasn't trying to BS or
pass bad info - but I guess I did anyway).  I've only had my 92 (with BPU
and the JSpec 13Gs) up to 15psi before I turned it down to 12.5 psi - which
it does hold to redline (at least according to my boost gauge).  I do have a
supra pump and 450cc injectors already, but haven't installed them as I'm
waiting on getting a SAFC.

Sorry for any mis-information,
Rick

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:35:50 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Boost II

>The instructions just need to be read.
>Once you start doing your own work Rich, you'll understand just how
>_easy_ it really all is.
>
It's like this...I can't afford to do my own work, because it costs me money. Time spent on the car is time I can't bill -- especially considering that it takes me 4X as long as it takes a shop. It is financially in my best interest to let somebody else do the work.

During those few times that I don't have a pile of billable work to do, I love to go out and tinker with the car. But I stick to stuff I understand, like brakes. I tend to F**k other things up, too, which complicates everything.

When I hit the lottery, I'll build a six-car garage, install a lift, and tinker all day.

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:08:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Boost II

> It's like this...I can't afford to do my own work, because it costs me money. Time spent on the car is time I can't bill -- especially considering that it takes me 4X as long as it takes a shop. It is financially in my best interest to let somebody else do the work.
- ---
So..you paid $200 for an hour of time on a weekend for plugs and an
improperly installed boost controller.

Dude, need my paypal addr and you can fly me out and save some money?

What you get from DIY on such low-end jobs pays back in spades in
understanding.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:53:07 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Boost II

They installed a DSBC and a BOV and regapped all six plugs. You can do that in an hour? It took them four hours. Also, who said it was improperly installed? It was the DSBC in my daughter's car that was improperly installed, not mine. 

Rich

>---
>So..you paid $200 for an hour of time on a weekend for plugs and an
>improperly installed boost controller.
>Dude, need my paypal addr and you can fly me out and save some money?
>What you get from DIY on such low-end jobs pays back in spades in
>understanding.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:21:05 -0500
From: "John Monnin" <John.Monnin@3Si.zzn.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: 13G, 17psi to redline or not?

Now Roger has my attention:

I keep hearing that 13G will hold 17 psi to redline, basically as
much boost as most recommend w/o using race gas or water injection.
Actually I keep hearing that the Dynamic racing DR500's will do this
but they are modified 13G's.

I have a friend who wants to buy turbos for his car and can't decide.
He just wants as much power as the get w/o getting too crazy, he was
originally looking at huge turbos like 357s and no fuel
controller!!!   I finally convinced him that that would be a huge
mistake but I am not confident enought ot suggest which turbos he
should get.  If was was gettign them for my own daily driver I would
probably get 13Gs or maybe DR500 since Matt Monet seems to eb able to
get so much out of them. I have not seen any proof that a street car
needs anything bigger than 13Gs, but if they drop of at higher RPMS
then the 15G's start looking better for a street car.

Anyone here running 13G or DR500s that can confirm what boost they
can hold to redline? 

John Monnin
1991 VR4
4-bolt main conversion

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 18:24:31 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Boost II

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>

> Jeesh..the car is immaterial.
>
> The instructions just need to be read.

It seems that the Japanese suppliers of many of the products we buy
could care less about support and English instructions. I do all my own
work and find that without a good background in mechanics and at times
electronics that you can't understand what they've written or at least
translated --- at times it looks like they had a English as a second language
student doing the translation. Their response is to ask the shop where you
bought it and half the time they don't know the answer or are incapable of
describing the procedure over the phone.

The moral of the story --- buy from someone who gives a damn about their
customer base.

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:30:11 -0500
From: MIHAI RAICU <mraicu@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: EDFC(Electronic Damping Force Controller) Question

Flash,

I know what you mean when you say that lifting the back of
the hood is a good thing in creating a cowl effect and
lowering under hood temps.  I just hate to be forced to
change something cosmetically to the car, unless I elect to
do it.  I guess Paul Prentis is going to find out for us how
it fits.  Maybe we will not be forced to raise the hood, or
if we will, only 1-2 mm.

- -MIHAI-

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 00:10:34 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: EDFC(Electronic Damping Force Controller) Question

Mihai,

I meant lifting the back of the hood with the ol' "washer under the
hinge" trick to raise it half an inch or so.  Someone tried this out in
CA (Jim Berry maybe?).  Nothing cosmetic changes to the hood ... you
just raise the back.  That is, assuming you have to do this in the first
place.  It might end up working out just fine.

- --Flash!

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 07:56:18 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: 13G, 17psi to redline or not?

HKS, Mitsubishi, Greddy, etc.  when selling the 'Sport Turbo Upgrade' are
selling 13g's.  Assuming, as Roger has indicated in the past, that European
3S's are equiped with 13g's from the factory, then it stands to reason that
the sport turbo upgrade is only available in the US.  I selected the 13g's a
few years ago, based on concerns by Jack T. that the TEC conversion from 13g
to 15g may occasionally effect the long term reliability based on his
experience with running both.  From my early conversations with TEC, I was
told the 13g and the 15g use the same compressor section with the 15g
running a slightly larger turbine section.  Jeff Lucius has excellent data
on most of the turbo's available on his web site.  I've been happy with the
13g's.  With the boost controller set to 18psi, they hold boost up to around
6K before they start to dip down to around 17psi near redline in 3rd gear
and higher.  2nd gear is limited to around 16psi max.  This may be a result
of the smaller turbines on the 13's, but I'm guessing that most turbo
upgrades have boost limitations in the lower gears.  My mods are limited to
fuel system and a downpipe.  All else is stock.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Monnin" <John.Monnin@3Si.zzn.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:21 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: 13G, 17psi to redline or not?

Now Roger has my attention:

I keep hearing that 13G will hold 17 psi to redline, basically as
much boost as most recommend w/o using race gas or water injection.
Actually I keep hearing that the Dynamic racing DR500's will do this
but they are modified 13G's.

I have a friend who wants to buy turbos for his car and can't decide.
He just wants as much power as the get w/o getting too crazy, he was
originally looking at huge turbos like 357s and no fuel
controller!!!   I finally convinced him that that would be a huge
mistake but I am not confident enought ot suggest which turbos he
should get.  If was was gettign them for my own daily driver I would
probably get 13Gs or maybe DR500 since Matt Monet seems to eb able to
get so much out of them. I have not seen any proof that a street car
needs anything bigger than 13Gs, but if they drop of at higher RPMS
then the 15G's start looking better for a street car.

Anyone here running 13G or DR500s that can confirm what boost they
can hold to redline?

John Monnin
1991 VR4
4-bolt main conversion

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 05:06:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 13G, 17psi to redline or not?

List member Dean has 13G turbos and they hold 17 psi to red line.
Dean and I have driven each other's cars back to back and his has
noticeably better role-on performance than mine. Dean has a '94 VR4
with 13Gs, VPC/GCC, and similar ICs to mine. I have '92 TT with 15Gs,
ARC2.

The Mitsu compressor flow maps also show substantially better
high-end performance of the 13Gs over 9Bs. Go to the "Flow Maps with
stock engine demand lines" section of my web page below and compare
9B and 13G maps with engine flow. Of course, every engine is little
different, but Dean's max psi of ~17 psi indicates that his engine
has improved volumetric efficiency over the stock engine and so max
boost is less than it would be with a stock motor (but flow is
more!). In fact, the 13G flow map with "improved engine demand lines"
suggests a 17 psi max boost at 7000 RPM.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm

My estimates of engine VE match well so far with list members'
reported performance with 9B, 13G, 15G, and GT368 turbos in both
stock and modified engines. Take a look at the other compresor flow
maps on my web page above to see how other turbos might work on our
engines. My 15Gs hold ~20 psi boost to red line.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- --- John Monnin <John.Monnin@3Si.zzn.com> wrote:
> Now Roger has my attention:
>
> I keep hearing that 13G will hold 17 psi to redline, basically as
> much boost as most recommend w/o using race gas or water injection.
> Actually I keep hearing that the Dynamic racing DR500's will do
> this
> but they are modified 13G's.
>
> I have a friend who wants to buy turbos for his car and can't
> decide.
> He just wants as much power as the get w/o getting too crazy, he
> was
> originally looking at huge turbos like 357s and no fuel
> controller!!!   I finally convinced him that that would be a huge
> mistake but I am not confident enought ot suggest which turbos he
> should get.  If was was gettign them for my own daily driver I
> would
> probably get 13Gs or maybe DR500 since Matt Monet seems to eb able
> to
> get so much out of them. I have not seen any proof that a street
> car
> needs anything bigger than 13Gs, but if they drop of at higher RPMS
>
> then the 15G's start looking better for a street car.
>
> Anyone here running 13G or DR500s that can confirm what boost they
> can hold to redline? 
>
> John Monnin
> 1991 VR4
> 4-bolt main conversion

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:18:09 -0800
From: "Robert Koch" <eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 3SX has own new SS Braided Brake Lines, More Cam Gears

I have a set of silver ones and what I can say about the unorthodox set to
the fadenza set it that the fadenza set is made better....anyone who knows
about aluminum stripping out threads will come to like the way fadenza
repaired that problem or worry with their set....even 450 is steep but I
feel much better about the quality with my fadenza set. As for over
adjusting it looks like it goes a full 10 deg either way....I am told 1deg
one way and 3 deg another for the best starting point...both sets go past
this point....that's why they both have locking bolts...the fadenza set
looks and just plain common sense shows that their sets will lock down
better.....a stud in aluminum is the better way by any means over a machined
screw that will eventually wear out threads....

JMO...I am a QC guy for a big company...and have held both sets in my
hand...the fadenza set is still in my possession....I doubt either will out
perform each other but quality is first when it comes to things like valve
trains and then price.....luckily the fadenza fits both bills by a whopping
400.00......

bobk.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:29:14 -0700
From: "Mike & Cathy" <micajoco@theofficenet.com>
Subject: Team3S: fog lights

When I was under my car I saw gears and electric motor on my fog lights, are
they adjustable and where would the adjustment be? I can't find anything
that would adjust them.
MikeS 92 rt tt


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:21:08 -0500
From: "Mike Frey" <mike21b@ptd.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: fog lights

Look at your fog light "head on". You'll see a very small indent around the
inside edge. The adjustment screw is accessed through that with a skinny
Phillips head screwdriver.

Now, if I can only figure out exactly which panels to pull off the bottom,
then I can replace the bulbs....................

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:20:21 -0800
From: "Riyan Mynuddin" <riyan@hotpop.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ignition coil capacitor... spec, availability

Team3S, and Roger-

True, my search is a little bit off. It reflects the older ignition
systems. Now capacitors still are used for taking spikes out of the coil
input, from what Andy and Mike tell me. The two specs are:

1) Plug wire side coil resistance (tested out fine)
2) Harness side coil resistance (too high)

I can supplement this with the shop manual pages and the exact readings
that I got if you guys would like. The harness side coil resistance was too
high on my coil. I am sure that the coils are the right part, since they
were matched up at the auto parts place and look identical. The plug wire
side spec matched on the bosch coils too. I can give you a part number if
you want it. The local Mopar dealer told me that neither him nor the Mitsu
dealer could get me the capacitor alone, since it is serviced and replaced
as the "ignition coil assembly". It didn't seem to me like he was blowing
smoke up my ass, although it's possible. I did the shop manual diagnostic on
the ignition power transistor and it passed just fine. All I need to do now
is test the harnesses for continuity.

I am going to try and replace the existing rusted out capacitor with a
generic 1000 micro farad capacitor. That's an awful high capacitance, but
it's a fail-safe measure since I've discussed the matter with an electrical
engineer (Mike) who says that no car with a distributorless ignition would
need more than that much capacitance. In the worst case scenario, my spark
won't be quite as hot, and Mike says that the transister would compensate
would the heat issue anyway. I'm using platinum plugs so I'm not
particularly worried about that either.

However, please let me know if you have any other input regarding the
matter. I'm most likely going to put the rest of my car back together before
I even get to the ignition stuff anyway, so that gives us time.

Riyan

- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:34 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: ignition coil capacitor... spec, availability


>  I discovered that the ignition coil was out of spec

What was out of spec ?

> ignition coil from bosch for $80, but bosch gave me the three coils only,

I wasn't aware that Bosch has any coil that fits our cars !

> not the whole bracket. I need the whole bracket assembly because the
> ignition coil capactitor comes as part of the assembly and mine seems to
be
> rusted and out of spec as well.

You should get the capacitor alone from Mitsu. It is only there to surpress
ignition pitch into the 12V power system.

> suspect that the rusted out capactitor is what caused the coil to die in
the

All coils died ? I doubt that the capacitor causes the coils to die. More
the ignition transistors are the problem then.

I think your search is a little off as we don't have a capacitive discharge
system at all.

Also, are you sure that you measured the right thing and that you got the
right coils (Bosch sounds very strange to me !!). You can disconnect the
capacitor if you want.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #791
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