Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, March 12
2002 Volume 01 : Number
780
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 12 Mar 2002 03:00:09 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar
I do not have this bar on my car - I merely
tested its performance in
some real live street course tests (turns,
chicanes, slaloms, etc.). I
have not used the other bars but you other
bar owners have not used this
one.
In the phrase, "That will be so
flimsy that it is scary to think they
trust it on their car" do not take this
out of context like another
author did on another post. That phrase was
in reference to a bar whose
construction was made up of a bar across the
front connected two a
vertical piece for an inch or two (to make up the
height difference to
the shock tower) then to a horizontal piece which was
either part of or
attached to the shock tower circle. These connections
were bolted and
not welded (I don't think they were hinged but were rigid but
I didn't
clarify this point). Don't take it out of context, Todd.
Can you
clearly demonstrate how an item with two 90-degree corners
bolted
together is stronger than one-piece that is welded to the ends or by
a
single bar that has a pin (hinge) connection at the ends?
In quickly
looking at the picture of your bar it looks like a strip of
steel with three
holes in each end which is then bolted to the part that
goes to the shock
tower tops. In a tensile test (where the one end of
the shock tower
circle is firmly bolted down and the other end is
pulled) the weakest parts
of the bar will be where the three bolt holes
go through the bar. I
don't care if this is my design ... it will still
fail at these bolt
holes. Again, if this is not correct then please
please correct my
thinking. A single piece of metal like Chris' will no
doubt outperform
the one on your car but I can't say for the Cusco, etc.
others as I have not
looked at them enough yet.
This is not 3Si for a reason because we like
to discuss these things and
get some feedback from the experts on the list so
I don't think
comparing this to 3Si has much merit. Some products are
shown on here
only and not 3Si. Some topics are discussed on Starnet
only or the 3/S
Racers list only. I don't follow 3Si so I won't bother
to sift through
their babble chat forums to find this topic over
there.
My opinion which I'm allowed to have is that I prefer Chris' bar
to the
one you have on your car. You can have a different opinion and
that is
fine. I was trying to input some technical comments about the
one I
saw.
Again, don't take things out of context, Todd. Jim
Berry noted that the
RoadRace Engineering bar *may* not be produced anymore
which left only
the Cusco as the one available. Now that I search the
web I see
3SXPerformance.com has some too but they look identical to yours
but are
polished yet still have two, three, or four bolts on each side
attaching
them together.
I also believe Chris' rear bar is under
development since I saw a
prototype which happened to be one he was testing
and I thought was
nearly finished with.
Mind you ... this is what is
scary out there that some people are using
the Cusco as a harness bar,
www.chrismore.com/graphics/3kgtstrutbar.jpg.
Jim
Berry is using his beefy RoadRace bar for a harness bar which saves
him $50
from Autopower for a harness bar with his rollbar. I don't know
how
much a harness bar is to buy (a nice beefy bar to attach to the
B-pillar area
or the rear seat belt retractor area) but let's assume $50
minimum. Now
you are comparing Chris' bar ($250 for rear bar and $50 as
a harness bar) to
one that is list as $276 (see next sentence) so now
Chris' bar is not far off
the mark and maybe this was how he set his
price -- I don't know. I
just saw the Cusco on the web for anything
from $130 (
www.digitalracer.com) to $221
(
www.turboimports.com).
The
one for $221 says, "Regular price: $276." 3SXPerformance has their
own
unpolished bar for $115. If the Cusco is $130 then why would
someone
take a non-name brand for about a 10% savings? Dunno.
Between those
two I would give the advantage to the Cusco. Yes that is
my opinion.
Not many times will someone be able to prove their design with
numbers
but if I can find a way to do that then I will.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Todd D.Shelton
Sent: Tuesday,
March 12, 2002 01:52
[snip]
But as anyone who hasn't been
asleep already knows, there
are at least two "associates" or go out of their
way, above
the call of duty to do their upmost best to promote, make
public,
and dare I say *sell* this exact same product.
This goes on
consistantly on 2 mailings lists and 3SI.org.
It was bad enough because
it is in fact overpriced and anyone
who has priced any other bars on the
market for any length of
time knows this. Other 3S owners who happen to
know a thing
or two about fabrication and product have not only *confirmed*
this
but have stated they could build it out of TITANIUM for $300!
The
price was bad enough but now certain people (not naming any
names again) are
now making claims that this particular bar
*outperforms* ALL the other
affordable bars that are now
available.
Well you should know, they've
already tried this crap on 3SI.org and
we (myself and several others) called
them on it. We asked them
to put up (produce scientific EVIDENCE) or
shut up.
You guys want to hock an overpriced $300 bar - go for -
but
don't be making stuff [unfounded claims]up in an attempt to
trash your
newfound competition, continue to overcharge and
expect all of us to sit by
quietly.
You trash one of the other bar's construction, you
wrote:
quote:
"That will be so flimsy that it is scary to think they
trust it on their
car."
You haven't even used one! It's
bad
enough to make up unsubstantiated and
undocument claims about *your*
bar being *better* but now
you are going out of your way to trash other bars
even though
you *admit* you haven't used, tested or inspected
them!
What the *%#$ is that?!
You go on to write:
"I'm open
to being wrong but will hold out judgment
until someone tests them
head-to-head or we get more
feedback on these bars"
Doesn't look to me
like you've held out judement at all.
Too busy trashing the competition and
making up
false claims about your bar to do that.
You
wrote:
"His bar is not the only one available and bigger is not always
better
but I think his bar deserves at least equal billing as the
big-name
aftermarket ones"
Holding out judgement again I
see?!
Seems you want "equal billing" in regards to "performance"
but
then the price is more than two times as much!
If it's so great then why
make up stuff, claims and then
trash the others without even really knowing
how
they work, perform, test etc?!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:28:54
+1100
From: "Joel Singh" <
joelsingh@primus.com.au>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo hoses.
hello,
imported car from Japan about 6 months
ago.
just found out that the hoses are disconected from the solenoid valve.
It is
just covered by tape and a vaccum hose is also taped up which goes to
the
rear turbo.
wanting to find out about how to connect hoses in the
proper way.
need detailed instructions how to connect hoses via solenoid
valve.
please help.
Where i live mechanics r not firmilar with these cars
so I'd prefer to do it
myself..
there are two outlets on the valve pl let
me know which hose goes to the top
and which goes to the bottom and where
does the other end go.
Also wanting to install bleeder valve, which hose
does it fit on.?
Any help would be highly appreciated.
thanks,
Joel
Singh.
Australia.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:29:35
-0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Front Strut Bar
Argh!! I can't take it any more!
The word is HAWKED!
(hawk: to advertise or peddle goods in the streets by
shouting)
(hock: slang for pawnshop)
There. I feel better. Correcting
grammar got me kicked offa the blue light 3S list, so mebbe I better watch out,
eh?
Rich/slow old poop.
>
>This particular bar (yours) has in
fact
>been hocked on this list more times than
>I can
count.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:53:55
US/Central
From:
tds@brightok.netSubject: RE: Team3S:
Front Strut Bar
> I do not have this bar on my car - I merely tested
its performance in
> some real live street course tests (turns, chicanes,
slaloms, etc.). I
> have not used the other bars but you other bar
owners have not used this
> one.
-
--------------------------------------------------
Exactly - you have no
way of no how well the others
work or don't work. Those that have
actually
purchased and used the bar I'm currently using
have all had very
positive feedback and I have
yet to hear a single complaint. In fact
I've
not heard any complaints concerning any of the
bars for our cars as
far as performance or
construction is concerned except for those
that
favor/are trying to sell one particular
bar [cough cough] and they only
disparage
the vendors who compete against their own
pick - ie the
competition - whose bars they
have never even laid hands on, tested,
evaluated
or even taken a simple non scientific poll
of those that do use
them. Apparently they
look at a picture and know all?
>
> In the phrase, "That will be so flimsy that it is scary to think
they
> trust it on their car" do not take this out of context like
another
> author did on another post. That phrase was in reference
to a bar whose
> construction was made up of a bar across the front
connected two a
> vertical piece for an inch or two (to make up the height
difference to
> the shock tower) then to a horizontal piece which was
either part of or
> attached to the shock tower circle. These
connections were bolted and
> not welded (I don't think they were hinged
but were rigid but I didn't
> clarify this point). Don't take it out
of context, Todd. Can you
> clearly demonstrate how an item with two
90-degree corners bolted
> together is stronger than one-piece that is
welded to the ends or by a
> single bar that has a pin (hinge) connection
at the ends?
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I
don't have to demonstrate anything. I'm not the one making
claims about
one bar working or performing better than the
other, one having better
construction, or one being worth
2 or 3 times every other bar on the
market.
This is the same tactic the other "salesman" tried on
3SI.org
when challenged to produce proof or evidence of their
unsubstantiated
claims. Instead of backing up the claims used to sell
the overpriced
bar or the claims used to trash the competetor's bar, they
decided
to throw it back at the consumer by declaring that we
(the
consumers and buyers) should perform our own tests on all
the
available bars to see if their unproven claims are true
or not. Totally
unbelievable!!
In other words I can go to the mailing lists and
posting
boards, make claims that the moon is made of cheese and
the
overpriced $300 bar is made of tin foil. When
asked to provide
evidence of such ludicrous claims,
all I have to do is ask the
reader/consumer/buyer to
go find out for themselves if what I claim is
true.
Sorry - you alone carry the burden to back up the
claims that
*you make*. The consumer is not required
to prove or disprove a
salesman's claims. But we should
certainly notice when there is no
evidence, scientific data
or independant research used to
bolster/substantiate/prove
the claims. I know I certainly notice since
as we all
know by now - anyone can claim anything on the internet
but
that rarely makes it so by itself.
The total lack of proof of
evidence backing the various
claims for one product and disparaging claims
against
the others sticks out like a sore thumb in this case.
It
becomes pathetic when the source of the unsubstantiated
claims begins to
petition the consumer/readers to help
provide the proof that they are unable
to produce! This
after being asked to *back up* what they
claim!
>
> In quickly looking at the picture of your bar it
looks like a strip of
> steel with three holes in each end which is then
bolted to the part that
> goes to the shock tower tops. In a tensile
test (where the one end of
> the shock tower circle is firmly bolted down
and the other end is
> pulled) the weakest parts of the bar will be where
the three bolt holes
> go through the bar. I don't care if this is
my design ... it will still
> fail at these bolt holes. Again, if
this is not correct then please
> please correct my thinking. A
single piece of metal like Chris' will no
> doubt outperform the one on
your car but I can't say for the Cusco, etc.
> others as I have not looked
at them enough yet.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------
None of the
bars have been reported to have failed. In fact
I have heard nothing
but good reports and testimonies.
Once again, just because you look at a
picture and make
declarations and disparaging claims - it doesn't make it
so.
And yes - there is plenty of doubt whether one bar
"outperforms"
another since no tests or evidence have ever been
provided.
Even though evidence has already been requested after the
first
unsubstantiated claims were made, even though none
has ever been provided,
the same self serving claims
continue to be made for *one particular
overpriced bar.*
Now you can't say for Cusco but you previously
declared
the "right" to be on par with them even though you once
again -
have no way of knowing - one way or the other.
Should we assume you will
glance at a picture of the
Cusco before you issue your supreme declaration
and
assesment?!
Cusco is not known for having low prices if
you
examine their product line. I wonder how it is that
their bar is
nearly 1/3 the price of the overpriced
$300 bar?!
I once stated that
for $300, the overpriced bar should
be gold plated. Then we find out
out that for $300
one of our owners could build/fabricate a front bar
from
Titanium and still make money. Seems I wasn't
so far off after
all!
Your opinion is just that : opinion.
Don't worry - no one is
trying to
take away your precious right to
your own opinion. Your
opinion, however
misguided, is not the problem.
But stating as fact
that which you can not
substantiate is not. It can especially be
a
problem when it is unjustly harmful to others.
Unproven claims for one
particular product
over *all* others whether seen, tested, examined
or not
is not helpful. Disparaging and unsubstantiated
information against
competing vendors stated as fact are
*harmful*. In fact if these
practices were used in
public - as in advertising - they would be illegal
and
subject to law suits.
- - tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds<other
blather snipped>
-
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:48:57
-0800
From: "Chris Winkley" <
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Front Strut Bar
Russell...
Thanks for stepping in.
While I'd personally love to see a side by side scientific comparison of
different makes of strut tower bars (anti-sway bars too) I don't think we're
adding any value to the list by having subjective discussions about who's bar is
"better" than someone else's, based on personal preferences for design. It's no
fun coming to work in the morning with 56 messages, a quarter of which are about
front strut bars but have no technical content to make them worth
reading.
And Rich, ("Do you think they will bar further discussion? Too
late, the bar door was left open. Ginger, I'm barmy. Rich/trying to raise the
bar") you may want to cut back on the coffee. :-)
Looking
forward...Chris (Team3S Admin)
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Furman, Russell [mailto:RFurman2@MassMutual.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12,
2002 7:37 AM
To: 'Team 3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Front Strut
Bar
This may wanna go private I hear the footfalls of the
admins
coming................
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: fastmax [SMTP:fastmax@cox.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:33
AM
> To: Todd D.Shelton;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st;
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Front Strut Bar
>
> Could be he was referring
to the fact that many of them are taken to
> a pawn shop to raise cash
for some other endeavor, e.g. I hocked my
> strut bar to get money for my
ballet lessons.
>
>
Jim Berry
> ==========================================
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>
> > Argh!! I can't take it any more! The word is
HAWKED!
> > (hawk: to advertise or peddle goods in the streets by
shouting)
> > (hock: slang for pawnshop)
> >
> >
There. I feel better. Correcting grammar got me kicked offa the blue
>
light 3S list, so mebbe I better watch out, eh?
> > Rich/slow old
poop.
> > >
> > >This particular bar (yours) has in
fact
> > >been hocked on this list more times than
> >
>I can count.
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:31:19
-0800 (PST)
From: menalteed <
menalteed@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo hoses.
The vacuum hose from the turbo goes to a H fitting
and
then on to the Waste gate control solenoid. I get this
from my book, a
92 book. Several days ago I ran across
these same emission control system
vacuum hose drawing
on one of the link sites we have but didnt
bookmark
it. Maybe some could post the link.
Peter, 92 Stealth
RT TT
*** Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:58:21
-0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: 5mm spacers
OOPS! I exaggerated my statement a little. I went
outside myself to loo=
k at
the turned out wheels again and the outside
wheel is not as bad as I th=
ough
it was. I did not measure anything but
it looks like it does not have m=
uch
of a positive camber when turned
into the turn. But I could not see muc=
h of
the expected negative camber
either, given the 6=BA of caster. The insi=
de
wheel, on the other hand,
is obviously leaning into the turn a lot. Thi=
s is
due to 6=BA caster
together with the angle that I was describing
earlie=
r.
Philip
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Philip
V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
wrote:
The caster is okay, but there is another angle (if it has a name - I
do=
not
know it) that measured the deviation of the wheel's
steering axis from =
the
vertical in the plane perpendicular to the
car. Kind of like caster bu=
t in
the vertical plane
perpendicular to the car. If this angle is too large=
,
and it is
apparently very large on the 3S, the outside wheel will have =
a
lot of
positive camber. Go outside and turn your front wheels.
Philip
At
11:09 PM 3/11/2002, fastmax wrote:
>I don't see how you could get positive
camber on the outside front wit=
h
>6=BA of caster. If the fronts are
turned into the corner the caster sh=
ould
>increase the negative
camber on the outside front ?!?!?! what am I
>missing
here.
>
> Jim
Berry
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>
>
> The biggest 3S suspension flaw is the MacPhearson design with a
poo=
r
> > geometry. The front outside wheel in turns leans towards
the outsid=
e
WAY
> > too much. It is so bad that it is
impossible to improve it
significantly by
> > changing camber or
caster angles. I do not understand what a 7-mm w=
heel
> > spacer
would change.
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:47:56
-0700
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar
Todd,
When did you say the titanium was
going to be available ?
*** Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:56:43
EST
From:
DonBrando36@aol.comSubject: Team3S:
VR4 block
does anyone know if the 1993 VR4 engine could fit into a 1993
N/A engine
compartment. Could i use N/A transmition with the VR4
or do i need to buy a
VR4 tranny? could the new engine be jsut front
wheel drive or just rear
wheel drive?
this is the way
i am going to go, if it is possible
brandon
93 3000GT
Dohc
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:11:22
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Floyd, Jim [mailto:Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com]
>
> Todd,
>
>
When did you say the titanium was going to be available ?
Ok, guys, give
it a rest - Todd's point (correct me if I'm wrong,
Todd) is that for the cost
of the bar in question, one could fabricate one
out of some outrageously
expensive material - like titanium. His point was
not that
someone is or should be making a titanium bar.
I'm all for encouraging our
members to make products to address
needs that have not been filled by others
- like Chris making a front strut
tower brace when no others were
available. I, personally, am even willing
to pay "a little" extra to
someone who goes out of his way to make something
specific for our
cars. As Todd has said (and others have said on 3Si),
making claims
about which bar is better is *silly* if there is no data to
back up the
claims.
One thing I am pretty surprised about is that Chris (the one
who
made the bar in the first place!) hasn't had too much to say on this
topic -
even though it's been brought up several times. Maybe Chris's
design IS
better/stronger, but if *he* wants to charge a premium, it's up to
him(or
more specifically, TEC - his business) to provide that
justification. The
fact that he hasn't provided such data or even (to
my knowledge) attempted
to justify the premium on his brace makes me
wonder...
*** Chris, you wanna pop in for a sec and talk
about why your bar is priced
so high? ***
Everyone knows that
there are several bars available for different prices.
It's up to the
consumer to decide if the features-cost ratio is high enough
to justify
it. Technical features have to be substantiated with data or
expert
opinion to be valid - otherwise they're just "stuff you read on the
internet"
(which is always true).
- --Erik
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:12:35
US/Central
From:
tds@brightok.netSubject: RE: Team3S:
Front Strut Bar
> Todd,
>
> When did you say the titanium
was going to be available ?
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
Jim,
When
did you say you were going to provide proof
of your claims that your bar
"outperforms" all
others? Oh - that's right - you're waiting
on the
consumers to do the research that should
have been done before you starting
making
claims you couldn't back up!
You have yet to provide
data for either of the
two bars [one has two different configurations]
you
claimed were "outperformed" and now you
have another - CUSCO. When can
we expect
to see the comparisions against the 4 other
(and reasonably
priced) bars on the market?
When will you provide any proof or
real
world evidence of any kind?
Have you decided to put the horse in
front of the cart yet?!
Profits must be slipping ..... lol
- -
tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds-
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:12:17
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: VR4 block
> does anyone know if the 1993 VR4 engine could
fit into a 1993
> N/A engine
> compartment. Could i use
N/A transmition with the VR4 or do
> i need to buy a
> VR4
tranny? could the new engine be jsut front wheel drive
> or just
rear
> wheel drive?
> this is the way i am
going to go, if it is possible
Yes.
Yes, as long as it is a tranny
that went with a 6G72 block.
Will be FWD only (unless you somehow graft on a
ton of the AWD parts - then
it would be AWD only).
Need the whole
motor, downpipe setup, ECU, wiring harness, etc.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:32:09
US/Central
From:
tds@brightok.netSubject: RE: Team3S:
Front Strut Bar
> Ok, guys, give it a rest - Todd's point (correct me
if I'm wrong,
> Todd) is that for the cost of the bar in question, one
could fabricate one
> out of some outrageously expensive material - like
titanium. His point was
> not that someone is or should be
making a titanium bar.
> I'm all for encouraging our members to make
products to address
> needs that have not been filled by others - like
Chris making a front strut
> tower brace when no others were
available. I, personally, am even willing
> to pay "a little" extra
to someone who goes out of his way to make something
> specific for our
cars. As Todd has said (and others have said on 3Si),
> making
claims about which bar is better is *silly* if there is no data to
> back
up the claims.
> One thing I am pretty surprised about is that
Chris (the one who
> made the bar in the first place!) hasn't had too much
to say on this topic -
> even though it's been brought up several
times. Maybe Chris's design IS
> better/stronger, but if *he* wants
to charge a premium, it's up to him(or
> more specifically, TEC - his
business) to provide that justification. The
> fact that he hasn't
provided such data or even (to my knowledge) attempted
> to justify the
premium on his brace makes me wonder...
>
> *** Chris,
you wanna pop in for a sec and talk about why your bar is priced
> so
high? ***
>
> Everyone knows that there are several bars
available for different prices.
> It's up to the consumer to decide if the
features-cost ratio is high enough
> to justify it. Technical
features have to be substantiated with data or
> expert opinion to be
valid - otherwise they're just "stuff you read on the
> internet" (which
is always true).
>
> --Erik
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly
- the only point I would clarify is that one of
the 3S owners who has been
involved with fabrication
and production flat out stated [on 3SI.org] that
YES - based on
his costs and experiences, he could in fact manufacture a
front bar
made from TITANIUM for $300 or less and still make
a
profit. Based on some of the titanium parts I have
purchased for my
Hayabusa, I have no reason to doubt him.
The challenge to "put up" I
issued on 3SI.org garnered
these same type of responses from the same
"associate" sales
rep you see here - only much more rude. Some expect
the
"right" to post anything they like - even if it is
unjustly harmful
to other owners/fabricators but when
they are asked to back it up, they can
only attack instead
of coming clean. This is a clear indication of true
intent.
Please - send it directly to me instead of trashing out
the
list. I've already delt with this and have come
to expect this from
certain individuals.
You have my email address, I've made my point
and
it has been understood by those to whom
it was intended.
I
won't respond on the list again but have plenty more to add in
direct contact
if you like .....
- - tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds -
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using
BrightNet MailMan.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:40:14
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Fun with Alignments
If you need a good laugh... or cry (if
you go to Firestone).
Just installed a Ground Control/Tokico/Koni
coil-over setup on a 2000
Eclipse GT this weekend (friend's car, and
surprisingly easy). He then took
the car to Firestone to get an
alignment. Actually, the only thing that
ended up being out of spec was
the front toe, even though the car was
lowered about 1.5".
After the
completion of the alignment, my friend noticed that his steering
wheel was
off-center by about 15-20 degrees when the wheels were straight.
All
alignment angles are within factory spec, and his castor was 3.08 on the
left
and 2.72 on the right. (Spec is 2.52 to 3.52). The next day, he
took
the car back in to Firestone and questioned why his steering wheel
was
off-center and whether they could fix it.
*** Their
response: Well, your castor angle is off on the right side - see
this
2.72 on this side and the 3.08 on this side? And because your
castor
angles are out, we have to turn the steering wheel the left to
compensate
for it.
My friend, not knowing too much about
suspensions yet, responded, "well, can
you fix the castor angles?" They
said, "No, that's not adjustable - your
frame must be bent." They then
sent him away with a crooked steering wheel
and the impression that there is
nothing he can do about it.
I wonder if I can get the manager/tech to put
that statement in writing and
then forward a copy to the corporate
office? That'd be fun.
- --Erik
who will probably turn
the @#$#$ tie rods myself to
straighten my friend's steering wheel
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:43:54
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Fun with Alignments
If anyone on the list lives remotely
close to CT there is a shop in Hartford
called Flanders Brake +
Alignment. They mounted balanced etc 2 new front
tires and did a damn
near perfect alignment on my car for $75
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik [SMTP:erik.gross@intel.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:40 PM
> To: Team3S List (E-mail); Starnet 3S
Mailing List (E-mail)
> Subject: Team3S: Fun with Alignments
>
> If you need a good laugh... or cry (if you go to
Firestone).
>
> Just installed a Ground Control/Tokico/Koni
coil-over setup on a 2000
> Eclipse GT this weekend (friend's car, and
surprisingly easy). He then
> took
> the car to Firestone to
get an alignment. Actually, the only thing that
> ended up being out
of spec was the front toe, even though the car was
> lowered about
1.5".
>
> After the completion of the alignment, my friend noticed
that his steering
> wheel was off-center by about 15-20 degrees when the
wheels were straight.
> All alignment angles are within factory spec, and
his castor was 3.08 on
> the
> left and 2.72 on the right.
(Spec is 2.52 to 3.52). The next day, he
> took
> the car back
in to Firestone and questioned why his steering wheel was
> off-center and
whether they could fix it.
>
> *** Their response: Well, your
castor angle is off on the right side -
> see
> this 2.72 on this
side and the 3.08 on this side? And because your castor
> angles are
out, we have to turn the steering wheel the left to compensate
> for
it.
>
> My friend, not knowing too much about suspensions
yet, responded, "well,
> can
> you fix the castor angles?"
They said, "No, that's not adjustable - your
> frame must be bent."
They then sent him away with a crooked steering
> wheel
> and the
impression that there is nothing he can do about it.
>
> I wonder
if I can get the manager/tech to put that statement in writing
>
and
> then forward a copy to the corporate office? That'd be
fun.
>
> --Erik
> who will probably turn the @#$#$ tie
rods myself to
> straighten my friend's steering wheel
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:52:16
-0500
From: "Payne, Scott" <
spayne@hunton.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Fun with Alignments
Wow, you just decribed my last visit to the
alignment shop with my 94
stealth R/T. Got the frame bent crap and a crooked
steering wheel. PLEASE is
there ANYBODY in Virginia who can align our
cars?!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik
[mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:40 PM
To:
Team3S List (E-mail); Starnet 3S Mailing List (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Fun
with Alignments
If you need a good laugh... or cry (if you go to
Firestone).
Just installed a Ground Control/Tokico/Koni coil-over setup
on a 2000
Eclipse GT this weekend (friend's car, and surprisingly
easy). He then took
the car to Firestone to get an alignment.
Actually, the only thing that
ended up being out of spec was the front toe,
even though the car was
lowered about 1.5".
After the completion of
the alignment, my friend noticed that his steering
wheel was off-center by
about 15-20 degrees when the wheels were straight.
All alignment angles are
within factory spec, and his castor was 3.08 on the
left and 2.72 on the
right. (Spec is 2.52 to 3.52). The next day, he took
the car back
in to Firestone and questioned why his steering wheel was
off-center and
whether they could fix it.
*** Their response: Well, your castor
angle is off on the right side - see
this 2.72 on this side and the 3.08 on
this side? And because your castor
angles are out, we have to turn the
steering wheel the left to compensate
for it.
My friend, not
knowing too much about suspensions yet, responded, "well, can
you fix the
castor angles?" They said, "No, that's not adjustable - your
frame must
be bent." They then sent him away with a crooked steering wheel
and the
impression that there is nothing he can do about it.
I wonder if I can
get the manager/tech to put that statement in writing and
then forward a copy
to the corporate office? That'd be fun.
- --Erik
who will
probably turn the @#$#$ tie rods myself to
straighten my friend's steering
wheel
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:02:22
-0700
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar - National Gathering
Erik,
The fact is
that someone was promising to make one from titanium
weeks ago.
But like
so many hollow threats they did not follow through.
Just like the Okuyama
bars that were going to be imported, etc.
The problem seems to be that
people can't afford the TEC so they
justify their choice over and over and
over, etc.
I'm hoping Todd is coming to the National Gathering so we can
do
some sort of comparison on these bars.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:09:41
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar w/HKS pipes
> The problem seems to be that
people can't afford the
> TEC so they justify their choice over and over
and over, etc.
> I'm hoping Todd is coming to the National Gathering so
> we can do some sort of comparison on these bars.
Do any of these
bars clear the HKS intercooler pipe kit? My pipe comes up a
good amount
more than the stock pipe from the rear turbo before curving
towards the
driver's side (and the diameter is much bigger too). Anyone
know for a
FACT which ones work? I'm not interested in opinions on whether
it
might fit or not. Also it needs to clear with the motor rocking in
the
mounts during hard launches too.
Anyone know for sure?
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:14:05
-0700
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar w/HKS pipes
My TEC front strut tower bar clears
my DN Performance IC pipe kit.
No problems with 6,000 RPM launches.
I
don't have any knowledge of HKS ?
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Jannusch, Matt [mailto:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12,
2002 11:10 AM
To: 'Team 3S'
Subject: Team3S: Front Strut Bar w/HKS
pipes
> The problem seems to be that people can't afford the
>
TEC so they justify their choice over and over and over, etc.
> I'm hoping
Todd is coming to the National Gathering so
> we can do some sort of
comparison on these bars.
Do any of these bars clear the HKS intercooler
pipe kit? My pipe comes up a
good amount more than the stock pipe from
the rear turbo before curving
towards the driver's side (and the diameter is
much bigger too). Anyone
know for a FACT which ones work? I'm not
interested in opinions on whether
it might fit or not. Also it needs to
clear with the motor rocking in the
mounts during hard launches
too.
Anyone know for sure?
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:16:28
+0000
From:
apedenko@attbi.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
Fun with Alignments
Have that firestone call the one in Libertyville IL -
I
had the crooked steering wheel goin' in, and they fixed
it (it took
them 2 tries, but they only charged me once)
Alex
'95 VR4
with a straight steering wheel for the first
time in 6 months
> If you
need a good laugh... or cry (if you go to
Firestone).
>
>
Just installed a Ground Control/Tokico/Koni coil-over
setup on a
2000
> Eclipse GT this weekend (friend's car, and
surprisingly
easy). He then took
> the car to Firestone to get an
alignment. Actually,
the only thing that
> ended up being out of
spec was the front toe, even
though the car was
> lowered about
1.5".
>
> After the completion of the alignment, my friend
noticed that his steering
> wheel was off-center by about 15-20
degrees when the
wheels were straight.
> All alignment angles are
within factory spec, and his
castor was 3.08 on the
> left and 2.72 on
the right. (Spec is 2.52 to 3.52).
The next day, he took
>
the car back in to Firestone and questioned why his
steering wheel
was
> off-center and whether they could fix it.
>
> *** Their
response: Well, your castor angle is off
on the right side -
see
> this 2.72 on this side and the 3.08 on this side?
And
because your castor
> angles are out, we have to turn the steering wheel
the left to compensate
> for it.
>
> My friend,
not knowing too much about suspensions
yet, responded, "well, can
>
you fix the castor angles?" They said, "No, that's
not adjustable -
your
> frame must be bent." They then sent him away with a
crooked steering wheel
> and the impression that there is nothing he
can do
about it.
>
> I wonder if I can get the manager/tech to
put that
statement in writing and
> then forward a copy to the
corporate office? That'd
be fun.
>
>
--Erik
> who will probably turn the @#$#$ tie rods myself to
>
straighten my friend's steering wheel
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:33:32
US/Central
From:
tds@brightok.netSubject: Re: Team3S:
Front Strut Bar w/HKS pipes
> > The problem seems to be that people
can't afford the
> > TEC so they justify their choice over and over
and over, etc.
> > I'm hoping Todd is coming to the National Gathering
so
> > we can do some sort of comparison on these bars.
>
> Do any of these bars clear the HKS intercooler pipe kit? My pipe
comes up a
> good amount more than the stock pipe from the rear turbo
before curving
> towards the driver's side (and the diameter is much
bigger too). Anyone
> know for a FACT which ones work? I'm not
interested in opinions on whether
> it might fit or not. Also it
needs to clear with the motor rocking in the
> mounts during hard launches
too.
>
> Anyone know for sure?
>
> -Matt
> '95
3000GT Spyder VR4
-
------------------------------------------------------
I have custom IC
pipes that are little larger
than the HKS and the Performance
(SuperMacs)
bar does a good job of clearing. I was wondering
how
well it would fit and I'm happy to report -
no problem. No only do I
have larger IC pipes
but the pipe that runs along the upper intake
uses a
small spacer when bolting on to the
upper since it is higher than
stock.
I didn't pass on the $300 bar because I can't
afford it.
Anyone that cares to check out
my website can see that no expense has
been
spared. (tens of thousands worth of mods since
1994) I
passed because it is clearly - without
question not worth anywhere near $300
and I
refused to be gouged - even when it was the only
bar offered.
I believe the marketplace is
now speaking loud and clear and it's
evident
by the desperate and unethical practices now
occurring
....
You won't see the designers/supporters of the other
bars pulling
these same stunts on 2 mailing
lists and 3SI again and again.
They
are too busy filling orders and satifying
customers to worry about "the other
guy".
The time for comparisons would have been
*before* making claims
of superiority over
the others without really knowing anything
at all
....
- - tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds-
---------------------------------------------
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BrightNet MailMan.
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:41:08
US/Central
From:
tds@brightok.netSubject: Re: Team3S:
Front Strut Bar - National Gathering
> Erik,
>
> The fact
is that someone was promising to make one from titanium
> weeks
ago.
> But like so many hollow threats they did not follow
through.
> Just like the Okuyama bars that were going to be imported,
etc.
>
> The problem seems to be that people can't afford the TEC
so they
> justify their choice over and over and over, etc.
> I'm
hoping Todd is coming to the National Gathering so we can do
> some sort
of comparison on these bars.
-
-------------------------------------------------------
You just really
don't know when to cut your
losses do you?!
I asked you to email me
directly and take this off the
list but you insist on taking pot shots as
soon as I do.
I refuse to let this untruth go. He never promised he
*would*
make a TI strut bar. He said he could and *might* if
there
was a demand for them. This is all posted on 3SI.org and
I can
supply the thread url if need be. Anyone can
read for themselves and
find that he *never* said what
you attribute to him.
Do you
even realize you're aren't being straight
about this stuff?!
- -
tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds-
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using
BrightNet MailMan.
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Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:43:17
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar Clearing Motor Rocking
> Also it needs to
clear with the motor rocking in the
> mounts during hard launches
too.
>
> Anyone know for sure?
Yeah, I can speak from
experience on that one. The TEC bar that I have on
my '95 VR-4
occasionally (maybe once every 5-10 times I drive the car - not
my daily
driver) contacts the motor. The driver's edge of the plenum hits
the
gusset of the bar at the bend if the motor moves (extreme movement) in
the
mounts. 99.9% of the time it's fine, even in aggressive driving,
but
every once in an while I'll hear a "clank" when the motor rocks. I
have a
little line of bare aluminum on the underside of the bar where the
black
powder coating has been worn away.
Eventually, I'll either put a
rubber "bump stop" on there or figure out
something to eliminate the
interference, but for now it happens so
infrequently that I haven't been
motivated to address the issue.
For a $300 bar, I'd expect it
wouldn't contact under any circumstances, but
in all fairness, I've been too
lazy to e-mail Chris about the issue yet -
maybe he'll provide a
solution.
I bet it makes the knock sensor go crazy though...
-
--Erik
'95 VR-4 with TEC front strut tower brace
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:50:02
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Front Strut Bar Clearing Motor Rocking
Erik/list I can say
with confidence the stock engine tranny mounts do not
hold up well to
"aggressive" driving/racing
In one season I managed to wreck the lower
stock mounts and damage the
uppers. I had the mounts replaced when I
bought the car b/c I knew I was
going to be drag racing it. The factory
mounts barely lasted one season (50
plus launches..... 4 runs every Sat, 4
Sats in a month, 4 months or so for
my season)
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik [SMTP:erik.gross@intel.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:43 PM
> To: 'Jannusch, Matt'; 'Team 3S'
>
Subject: Team3S: Front Strut Bar Clearing Motor Rocking
>
> >
Also it needs to clear with the motor rocking in the
> > mounts during
hard launches too.
> >
> > Anyone know for sure?
>
> Yeah, I can speak from experience on that one. The TEC bar that I
have on
> my '95 VR-4 occasionally (maybe once every 5-10 times I drive
the car -
> not
> my daily driver) contacts the motor. The
driver's edge of the plenum hits
> the gusset of the bar at the bend if
the motor moves (extreme movement) in
> the mounts. 99.9% of the
time it's fine, even in aggressive driving, but
> every once in an while
I'll hear a "clank" when the motor rocks. I have a
> little line of
bare aluminum on the underside of the bar where the black
> powder coating
has been worn away.
>
> Eventually, I'll either put a rubber "bump
stop" on there or figure out
> something to eliminate the interference,
but for now it happens so
> infrequently that I haven't been motivated to
address the issue.
>
> For a $300 bar, I'd expect it
wouldn't contact under any circumstances,
> but
> in all fairness,
I've been too lazy to e-mail Chris about the issue yet -
> maybe he'll
provide a solution.
>
> I bet it makes the knock sensor go crazy
though...
>
> --Erik
> '95 VR-4 with TEC front strut tower
brace
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:53:30
-0500
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Front Strut Bar - Alternatives
>The problem seems to be that people
can't afford the
> TEC so they justify their choice over and over and
over, etc.
> I'm hoping Todd is coming to the National Gathering
so
> we can do some sort of comparison on these bars.
That has got
to be one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.
We're not talking
about a precision turbocharger here. We're talking about
a bent
BAR. A fixed piece of inanimate steel. The price for it is
utterly
ridiculous and it sounds like YOU have to justify your own purchase
by
bashing the other, more reasonably priced alternatives.
You want a
blatant illustration of just how insane the price is? Have a
look
here:
http://www.coloradok5.com/moo12truss.shtmlHere
we have an axle truss for an off road vehicle. Different
application,
but same purpose. Structural stiffening. If you're
even going to try to
tell me that your strut towers endure more stress than a
4x4 axle while
crawling over boulders, you have obviously never seen a true
off road
vehicle in action. Getting back to my point, here we have a
far more
complex structural brace which is built AND TESTED to deal with far
greater
stress than any of our cars will ever see, and it sells for a meager
$250.
More welds, more metal, more complexity and more stress, and it's
STILL
cheaper than your bent bar with a bracket on each end. This is not some
high
volume company. It's a small shop out in rural Missouri which
makes these
parts to order. As I said, it's a different application,
but still the same
principle and as such, a fair comparison.
As for
the crack about the Okuyama bars, you certainly can get them. I
lined
up a purchase through an NSX shop. They're slightly more expensive
than
the TEC bars, but of visually superior quality. The bar itself
is
actually cheaper, but unfortunately there's that little issue of
import
costs. I would own one myself, but I have other priorities at
the moment.
Namely repairing my transmission.
For those who have never
seen the fine quality of an Okuyama Carbing bar,
please have a look at
these:
http://rbox.victoly.com/~carlcuro/Carbing/turbo3%5b1%5d%20copy.jpghttp://rbox.victoly.com/~carlcuro/Carbing/strut1%5b1%5d%20copy.jpgThese
are for a 300ZX. The 3S bar is the same high build quality, but
ties
both strut towers into the firewall rather than spanning the
engine.
http://home4.highway.ne.jp/okuyama/image/strutTB/strutTB_Z16A.jpgThis
whole pissing match needs to end. It's really quite sickening.
The
FACT is, no one has any hard data on any of these bars, the folks
selling
them refuse to provide any, and even if they could, would it really
matter?
We're not driving Formula 1 cars folks! Buy one, and if it doesn't
provide
the response you're looking for, sent it back for a refund.
It's as simple
as that. If the vendor is unwilling to stand behind their
product like that,
they're obviously not that confident in their product and
don't care much
about you as a customer anyway.
--snip--
Jeff
VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:52:00
-0700
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar Clearing Motor Rocking
Russell,
Have you
tried the engine mounts from 3SXPerformance ?
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Furman, Russell [mailto:RFurman2@MassMutual.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:50 AM
To: 'Gross, Erik'
Cc: 'Team
3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Front Strut Bar Clearing Motor
Rocking
Erik/list I can say with confidence the stock engine tranny
mounts do not
hold up well to "aggressive" driving/racing
In one
season I managed to wreck the lower stock mounts and damage the
uppers.
I had the mounts replaced when I bought the car b/c I knew I was
going to be
drag racing it. The factory mounts barely lasted one season (50
plus
launches..... 4 runs every Sat, 4 Sats in a month, 4 months or so for
my
season)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:03:19
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Front Strut Bar - Alternatives
> Jeff
(Gatecrasher),
>
> Please indicate where I bashed another
bar.
Guys (all of you), that's really enough. Buy whatever bar you
want to buy.
I'd imagine they all work well enough where nobody could tell
the difference
in a blind handling test.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:24:21
-0800
From: Rick Pierce <
piercera@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Front Strut Bar Clearing Motor Rocking - now 3SX Mounts and Engine
Movement
I've got the 3SX motor mounts in my VR-4 and that engine does
not move - at
all. I also have one of the "other" front strut bars - so
far not mentioned
from Bryan Lim in San Diego and no matter what I do that
engine does not
come close to hitting the bar, so I would second going with
the 3SX mounts.
Also Steve does have two different compounds - the first
batch was
considered too stiff for some (I think I have these in my car) and
Steve has
switched to a softer compound. If you call him though he will
be glad to
use the stiffer compound for a set for you and his prices are
actually lower
than Satan's for a complete set.
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
To: "'Team
3S'" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Front Strut Bar
Clearing Motor Rocking
> Russell,
>
> Have you tried the
engine mounts from 3SXPerformance ?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:44:15
-0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Possible product
Check this out:
http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u12.htmlI
found this link today on some Supra guy's website. This $99 little
gadget
has 8 0-10V analog inputs (and a bunch of digital), and connects via
USB to
your computer. There's a DLL that allows you to query the
voltage of each
channel real time, 25 times/second. It comes with some
basic logging
software, so you could use that or write your own. It's
also got 2 analog
outputs, so there's even some poking at the ECU that could
be done. :)
(Homemade AFC, anyone?)
With some custom software (or
perhaps the software that comes with it!),
this could be the answer to
datalogging for us poor '94-'95 owners. Just
tap into a few of the
lines running in/out of the ECU.
I'm thinking I'll order one and play
around with it, as PocketLogger doesn't
seem to have any plans to support the
OBD-I/II hybrid cars and I REALLY want
to have some decent data
logging!!!
- - Brian
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Jannusch, Matt [mailto:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
Sent: Monday, March 11,
2002 8:10 PM
To: 'fastmax';
team3s@team3s.comSubject: RE: Team3S:
Possible product
> I'd like to see a cheap alternative to the PCMCIA
cards but I
> don't know how you're going to do the analog to digital
> conversion and buffering without a bunch of hardware.
PIC
microcontrollers. All the technology needed is onboard or
easily
interfaced to the chip. No problem. Cost of about $4 per
chip, and I
already own the programmer and compilers for other projects I
played around
with to learn the technology.
It is very
do-able.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
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End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#780
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