Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Wednesday, March 6 2002   Volume 01 : Number 773

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:50:26 -0500
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 5 speed

Not even close.

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Mike & Cathy
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:33 AM
To: team3s stealth-3000gt
Subject: Team3S: 5 speed

Will a 5-speed from a non turbo car be the same as a tt awd ?

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:27:17 -0500
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ;-)

Yep. Using this method a 300-HP 3S car would show the same drivetrain
losses as a 600-HP 3S. This means than if someone adds 300 HP to the engine
crank all of that power will go straight to the wheels with no drivetrain
losses. So the theory here is that the drivetrain losses are constant and
do not depend on the transmitted power - sounds like an assumption.

People will always keep talking in terms of crank horsepower as opposed to
wheel horsepower. The car manufacturers started all this - it's all their
fault! ;-)

Philip

>according to your origional description of that method, what your have
>is a coast down measurement --- push in the clutch and measure the
>loss. The actual numbers are going to require losses under maximum
>load how would they do that.

>> Numbers can be found on the dyno curves on my 3000GT pages. No theory as
we
>> measure drivetrrain loss and not are guessing.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:31:48 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

Coast power loss is calculated after you push the clutch in..... why not
use the coast down method with the clutch out (i.e. using engine bracking)
wouldn't this give a more accurate (due to extra load from engine)
measurement?

Just throwing it out, not questioning anyone....... I do not understand
enough of this stuff yet to argue (do not have the proverbial leg to stand
on)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com [SMTP:pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 11:27 AM
> To: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S:
> Hesitation ; -)
>
> Yep. Using this method a 300-HP 3S car would show the same drivetrain
> losses as a 600-HP 3S. This means than if someone adds 300 HP to the
> engine
> crank all of that power will go straight to the wheels with no drivetrain
> losses. So the theory here is that the drivetrain losses are constant and
> do not depend on the transmitted power - sounds like an assumption.
>
> People will always keep talking in terms of crank horsepower as opposed to
> wheel horsepower. The car manufacturers started all this - it's all their
> fault! ;-)
>
> Philip
>
> >according to your origional description of that method, what your have
> >is a coast down measurement --- push in the clutch and measure the
> >loss. The actual numbers are going to require losses under maximum
> >load how would they do that.
>
> >> Numbers can be found on the dyno curves on my 3000GT pages. No theory
> as
> we
> >> measure drivetrrain loss and not are guessing.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:35:13 -0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Dented wheels (was: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades)

Also consider that you are running about 10 psi less tire pressure on the
highway than on the track ...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Forrest [SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:18 PM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Cc: Michael Gerhard; Geoff Mohler; fastmax
> Subject: Dented wheels (was: Re: Team3S: Big Red Upgrades)
>
> Road hazards
> are way more dangerous than the average runs on the track..., assuming
> that
> you stay ON the track! :-)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:14:07 -0500
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
Subject: RE: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

This would add engine's internal losses under no load to car's drivetrain
losses under no load. But the internal engine losses are interesting only
from a theoretic prospective.

Philip

>Coast power loss is calculated after you push the clutch in..... why not
>use the coast down method with the clutch out (i.e. using engine bracking)
>wouldn't this give a more accurate (due to extra load from engine)
>measurement?

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:05:37 -0800
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

I am finding this confusing? Who that is part of this topic actually
has done a dyno run with thier car? Either way it is done it is
calculated from a measuring device that is either connected to the
wheels by way of drum or to the fly wheel by way of torque converter.
What does coasting the engine down from WOT help in the readings?
When you push in the clutch the test is over seconds before that. It
is measuring peak HP and peak Torque....not coasting speed of clutch
presure. This is the part I hate about this List...the rocket
scientists who prove theory and have no basis or personal experience
to comment on. Maybe I am way off base here.........I think I will
just watch from the sidelines for while again till the fog clears.

bobk.
93 R/T 99 Conversion

- ---- Original Message ----
From: pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
To: team3s@team3s.com
Subject: RE: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S:
>Hesitation ; - )
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:14:07 -0500

>This would add engine's internal losses under no load to car's
>drivetrain
>losses under no load. But the internal engine losses are interesting
>only
>from a theoretic prospective.
>
>Philip
>
>>Coast power loss is calculated after you push the clutch in.....
>why not
>>use the coast down method with the clutch out (i.e. using engine
>bracking)
>>wouldn't this give a more accurate (due to extra load from engine)
>>measurement?

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:12:55 -0800
From: "Chris Winkley" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: Team3S: Trunk mounted battery

Folks...

I've had it with dry cell batteries. This is the third one I've had, with each failing to hold a charge over the winter sitting in the garage (even with a 2 amp automatic charger on it). At $225 a piece, this is NOT a good investment.   :-(

Sooooo, I bought a Optima Red Top this last weekend...900 amps and only $115.00!!!

Now the dilemma. I thought it would be a great idea to go all the way so I bought a NHRA rated Moroso polyethylene airtight box and battery kill switch. BUT, I cannot locate a space anywhere in the trunk where I can install the box. I can squeeze the battery itself into the right rear corner, and can drill one hole to the outside of the frame and one to the inside (over the gas tank) for the steel strap but can't come up with a solution for the box as it's approximately two inches larger all the way around. Has anyone successfully installed a sealed box? If so, where? I'm thinking I may resort to having a stainless steel tray fabricated, screw it to the floor pan, and use the strap with two strap bolts to hold it in the tray should I decide to try driving upside down. Suggestions???

Also, any suggestions on the best run for the cables? I bought 20 feet of Moroso 2 gauge cable with plenty of beefy ring terminations. My plan is to connect the two ground connections that are in the engine compartment (motor and chassis) to each other, then run a ground to the body in the trunk. This will leave only one cable to run (the positive) back up to the engine compartment. It seems like there's plenty of clearance if I attach it to the body pan on the passenger side, but I could get fancier and tuck it up along the tunnel where the driveline and tranny is. Again, suggestions?

Looking forward...Chris

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/custom K&N intake, bored and polished throttle body, TEC 15G turbos, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, ARC2/MAF fuel controller, Split Second A/F meter, GReddy PRofec A boost controller, Apex EGT & boost gauges, GReddy turbo timer, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers, Odyssey dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs gapped at .032", ACT 2800 lb pressure plate, Broward six puck racing disc, Centerforce throwout bearing, ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, Stillen cross-drilled rotors, Porterfield R4 race pads, SS brake lines, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs, Michelin SX MXX3 Pilots)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 11:08:47 -0800
From: Damon Rachell <damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trunk mounted battery

You're on the right track. I've got a 2 gauge cable run from the engine
bay below the firewall, following the fuel lines. I cable tied it right
up to the fuel line protectors and it's been there for almost 2 years.
No problems. I have it entering where the rear seats clip into the
body. Widen the hole, make sure it's well protected (lotsa duct tape
and grommets) and run the cable up along the side of the back seats.
Mine is used for my stereo now but will soon be for the bat reloc. Not
sure, though, but I'm thinking about the weight savings of the dynabat.
I do drive the car weekly, so deep draining isn't expected.
Damon

Chris Winkley wrote:

> Folks...
>
> I've had it with dry cell batteries. This is the third one I've had, with each failing to hold a charge over the winter sitting in the garage (even with a 2 amp automatic charger on it). At $225 a piece, this is NOT a good investment.   :-(
>
> Sooooo, I bought a Optima Red Top this last weekend...900 amps and only $115.00!!!
>
> Now the dilemma. I thought it would be a great idea to go all the way so I bought a NHRA rated Moroso polyethylene airtight box and battery kill switch. BUT, I cannot locate a space anywhere in the trunk where I can install the box. I can squeeze the battery itself into the right rear corner, and can drill one hole to the outside of the frame and one to the inside (over the gas tank) for the steel strap but can't come up with a solution for the box as it's approximately two inches larger all the way around. Has anyone successfully installed a sealed box? If so, where? I'm thinking I may resort to having a stainless steel tray fabricated, screw it to the floor pan, and use the strap with two strap bolts to hold it in the tray should I decide to try driving upside down. Suggestions???
>
> Also, any suggestions on the best run for the cables? I bought 20 feet of Moroso 2 gauge cable with plenty of beefy ring terminations. My plan is to connect the two ground connections that are in the engine compartment (motor and chassis) to each other, then run a ground to the body in the trunk. This will leave only one cable to run (the positive) back up to the engine compartment. It seems like there's plenty of clearance if I attach it to the body pan on the passenger side, but I could get fancier and tuck it up along the tunnel where the driveline and tranny is. Again, suggestions?
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>
> 1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/custom K&N intake, bored and polished throttle body, TEC 15G turbos, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, ARC2/MAF fuel controller, Split Second A/F meter, GReddy PRofec A boost controller, Apex EGT & boost gauges, GReddy turbo timer, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers, Odyssey dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs gapped at .032", ACT 2800 lb pressure plate, Broward six puck racing disc, Centerforce throwout bearing, ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, Stillen cross-drilled rotors, Porterfield R4 race pads, SS brake lines, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs, Michelin SX MXX3 Pilots)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 11:19:15 -0800
From: Damon Rachell <damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Team3S: rear sway bar install procedure...

Hi Folks,
Well, here's my opinion on the install of the rear sway bar. It's not
what I'd call hard, but certainly frustrating. If you have any
questions, let me know and i'd be more than happy to help.
Damon

Rear Sway bar install:

This is a general outline for the removal and installation of the rear
sway bar in a 1992
Dodge Stealth R/T Turbo with AWS. Total time it too me was about 5
hours, but I take
everything VERY SLOW. I'd rather literally do it twice to get it right
than have it done
half-assed. Those cars that do not have AWS have about 1-1.5 hours less
of work and
much easier clearance. If I had to do it again, though, it would
probably take no more
than 2-2.5 hours, max.

The AWS pipes are right by the sway bar and need to be shifted often to
get the old bar
out and the new bar in. Patience, the right tools, a little elbow
grease, a beautiful day, a
competent partner (no household dog for companionship) , a 6-pack and a
pizza (for
when completed, of course) are all necessary. Sorry no pics but I'll
try when we do Jim's
car soon (Fastmax). Here we go!

1)
Remove both rear wheels and jack the car way up and place on jack
stands. I did
this side by side rather than using the diff. I can get greater height
this way.
2)
Remove the end links from both the sway bar and the control arm using a
12mm
socket and a 14mm thin wrench (to prevent twisting of the end link).
Maintain
orientation of the bushings and caps. These will be reused until
urethane bushings
can be made.
3)
Remove the Tie Ends from the AWS.   This makes additional room to work.
4)
Remove the rear shock absorber lower mounting bolt and pry the shock away
from the shock lower mount. I used a pry bar for this.
5)
Remove the parking brake mounting bolts (3 12mms).
6)
Remove the exhaust support bolts from the driver's side. There are two
under the
bumper, one near the upper control arm and one below the lower control
arm.
This allows the differential maximum clearance from the body.
7)
***Now comes the fun stuff: Using a floor jack and a 2"X4", begin
supporting
the differential from the bottom. Once the next 2 steps are completed, the
differential is FREE from the body. It NEEDS support like your grandma's
booty!
8)
Remove the cross member brackets that attach the frame to the
differential carrier
(17mm towards the front and 19mm towards the rear).
9)
Remove the cross member mounting bolt behind the upper control arm (22mm).
10)
Lower the differential approximately 1-2" ONLY! This gives you room to
remove the fixing bolts to the AWS pipes that are nearly inaccessible
before the
diff drop.
11)
Remove the 5 AWS fixing bolts (12mm), two on each side of the diff, two
under
the body in front of the diff, and one where the 4 AWS lines converge on
top of
the differential carrier towards the front of the differential. This
last one is a
complete PITA so be careful. It can be done, though.
12)
Now mark the position of the AWS brackets on the cross member. Remove
the 4
17mm bolts.
13)
Slide the AWS rack away from the sway bar brackets. The hoses all have
flexible
sections but are mostly rigid so be careful not to kink anything. With
enough
room to get to the 12mm sway bar bracket bolts, remove them.
14)
At this point, even when I lowered the diff to the max, there wasn't
enough room
to get the bar out. So, remove the rear center support bearing bolts
from the body
and support the Lobro Joint with a 2X4 preventing excessive sag. Too
much sag
at the Lobro Joint can split the boot, which will then need replacement.
15)
With the driveshaft loose and supported, lower the diff approximately
6". Make
sure that you watch all lines and hoses, all connections, and frankly
everything!
Do it slowly! Lots of potential to screw something up here but just
take your time
and watch everything.
16)
With about 6" of clearance between the body and the diff, the sway bar
can be
maneuvered out. This is best done with 2 people. Watch the brake
lines. They
don't need to be removed, but just keep an eye out for them.

Installation:
1)
Slide the new sway bar in place. Again, be careful of the AWS lines and
the
brake lines.
2)
Attach the sway bar to the frame with the new brackets but keep them
loose. Use
washers in addition due to the slightly larger holes in the brackets
than stock. I
just didn't trust the fitment without the washers.
3)
Raise the diff to about 2" from the top using the floor jack.
4)
Reattach the center support bearing.
5)
Reattach the lower shock mount bolts (72 ft-lbs).
6)
This gets the suspension to roughly the right geometry to fix the sway
bar in
place. Reattach the end links to the sway bar and the lower control
arm. Match
the number of threads exposed on the outside of each bolt so both sides are
symmetrical. Don't over tighten at this point.
7)
Slide the bar as far forward (towards the engine) as the sway bar
brackets will
allow and tighten the bracket bolts down firmly. I found that my bar
seemed to be
about ¼" too long when the brackets were centered so pushing the
brackets up
front helps even it out a bit.
8)
Reattach all AWS pipe fixing bolts
9)
Reinstall the AWS rack bolts (30 ft-lbs)
10)
Fully raise the diff. I raised it til it just about lifted the car off
the jack stands,
then lowered it a tad (don't quote me on how far a tad is :-})
11)
Install the 22mm cross member mounting bolt behind and above the upper
control
arm. Don't torque down until the diff is not supported.
12)
Install the Cross member bracket bolts and nuts.
13)
Reattach the exhaust.
14)
At this point, there shouldn't be any nuts or bolts lying around. Make
sure then
fully lower the diff.
15)
Torque the 22mm cross member mounting nuts to 42ft lbs, the 19mm cross
member mounting bolt to 80-94ft lbs and the 17mm mounting nuts to
51-61ft lbs.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:51:54 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: RE: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

Hey, watch out! You have to first join the club and study the rockets
before you can build one. ;-)

At 01:05 PM 3/5/2002, ek2mfg wrote:
>This is the part I hate about this List...the rocket
>scientists who prove theory and have no basis or personal experience
>to comment on.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:35:19 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

Instead of waiting on the sidelines for the fog to clear how about
reading up on the wonders of testing with a dyno --- if you're
willing to learn rather than wait for somebody to tell you the answer
I can send you some links that will get you on your way to being to
being the rocket scientist your mom always wanted you to be.

        Jim Berry
============================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>

> I am finding this confusing? Who that is part of this topic actually
> has done a dyno run with thier car
< snip>

> This is the part I hate about this List...the rocket
> scientists who prove theory and have no basis or personal experience
> to comment on. Maybe I am way off base here.........I think I will
> just watch from the sidelines for while again till the fog clears.
>
> bobk.
> 93 R/T 99 Conversion

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:38:24 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: rear sway bar install procedure...

THANK YOU, Damon! That'll be a big help when I get mine this week (UPS
finally "found" my lost sway bars and is going to deliver them...3 weeks
late... grrrr)

I'll take pictures when I do mine, but it may be a couple weeks since my
garage is booked this weekend (scary - my garage at home has a schedule and
appointments <g>) because a friend is coming by this weekend to install
coil-overs on his 3G Eclipse. I'm gonna have to start charging fees if I
ever want to get to work on MY car :-)

- --Erik

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:39:47 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: RE: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

Send them to me also, I am part of this topic and the reason I asked that
question is b/c the first time I ever dynoed my car it spun the rollers to
the tune of 227 awhp (93 VR-4)
only mods at that time I am aware of, were gutted precats and K@N FIPK.
Seemed kinda high IMHO

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fastmax [SMTP:fastmax@cox.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:35 PM
> To: ek2mfg; pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com; team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S:
> Hesitation ; - )
>
> Instead of waiting on the sidelines for the fog to clear how about
> reading up on the wonders of testing with a dyno --- if you're
> willing to learn rather than wait for somebody to tell you the answer
> I can send you some links that will get you on your way to being to
> being the rocket scientist your mom always wanted you to be.
>
>         Jim Berry
> ============================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
>
>
> > I am finding this confusing? Who that is part of this topic actually
> > has done a dyno run with thier car
> < snip>
>
> > This is the part I hate about this List...the rocket
> > scientists who prove theory and have no basis or personal experience
> > to comment on. Maybe I am way off base here.........I think I will
> > just watch from the sidelines for while again till the fog clears.
> >
> > bobk.
> > 93 R/T 99 Conversion

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:43:10 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: rear sway bar install procedure...

>Hi Folks,
>Well, here's my opinion on the install of the rear sway bar. It's not
>what I'd call hard, but certainly frustrating. If you have any
>questions, let me know and i'd be more than happy to help.
>Damon
>

Whew!
Yeah, that was about it. I think Damon took off more parts than we did, but his description matches just about what Denny's Mufflers in Cedar Rapids did on my install.

I think Damon might be underestimating the time required for the next go-round though. I doubt that anyone can do this job in 2-2.5 hr without a hoist. After all, Denny's had power ratchets, manpower, lifts, pry bars and whatnot, and it still took them 2.0 hours.

The front bar is a little easier. Not much, but easier.

So, my original estimate of a complete weekend to do this job in your driveway was right on. Damon took 5.5 hr, and I doubt seriously if he woulda tried to the front bar the same day. Naw, pizza and beer were waiting.

Rich/slow old poop
94 vr4 with BOTH sway bars installed.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:02:15 -0800
From: Damon Rachell <damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: rear sway bar install procedure...

I can only assume that with a lift, it makes things much easier to get
to. I always like to do things excessively rather than sneak by
possibly damaging something that I don't know how to fix on the way.
That's why I removed ALL of the AWS line fixing bolts. If you follow
the book, then you might be able to get it done with a lift. Without,
there's just a limit to how much room you've got.

To all who plan on venturing into it, do alot a full day to each bar.
Even though doing it a second time will take much less time, the whole
experience is really nightmarish, especially if some of the bolts don't
come off.

Just make sure to have lots of beer around. I didn't want to state it
in the directions, but the way I usually do it is do a couple of steps,
have a beer. another couple, pizza. get the bar out? Full pizza,
beer, smokes, TV, beer, then back to work. Just makes the day more fun
that way!

Live well,
Damon

merritt@cedar-rapids.net wrote:

>>Hi Folks,
>>Well, here's my opinion on the install of the rear sway bar. It's not
>>what I'd call hard, but certainly frustrating. If you have any
>>questions, let me know and i'd be more than happy to help.
>>Damon
>
> Whew!
> Yeah, that was about it. I think Damon took off more parts than we did, but his description matches just about what Denny's Mufflers in Cedar Rapids did on my install.
>
> I think Damon might be underestimating the time required for the next go-round though. I doubt that anyone can do this job in 2-2.5 hr without a hoist. After all, Denny's had power ratchets, manpower, lifts, pry bars and whatnot, and it still took them 2.0 hours.
>
> The front bar is a little easier. Not much, but easier.
>
> So, my original estimate of a complete weekend to do this job in your driveway was right on. Damon took 5.5 hr, and I doubt seriously if he woulda tried to the front bar the same day. Naw, pizza and beer were waiting.
>
> Rich/slow old poop
> 94 vr4 with BOTH sway bars installed.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:04:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

This is an **old** topic, but perhaps here are some "new" ideas.

Back to basics:
More engine horsepower has the practical effect of making the car,
and many of its individual components, accelerate more quickly. If we
limit top speed to 100 mph, an engine that produces more power will
get a car there faster (to 100 mph in less time) than an engine with
less power output. For example, take any of our personal cars and
compare 0 to 60 times with boost set at 9 psi and with boost at 15
psi.

Drivetrain loss:
So assuming the relevant characteristic of higher engine power
output, say 375 bhp at 15 psi boost vs. 300 bhp at 9 psi boost, is
simply how fast the vehicle and its components accelerate, how does
that affect drivetrain loss? Are frictional losses, such as
lubricated journal friction and boundary layer friction, dependent on
acceleration? My reading about this subject indicates that component
velocity alone (not acceleration) is the major factor that determines
the magnitude of the frictional force (drivetrain loss).

For empirical examples, you can look at Jim Matthews' web page,
http://www.team3s.com/~matthews/stealth.html .
On there you can see dyno measurements and CarTest output. On the
dyno, drivetrain loss increases almost linearly with engine/vehicle
speed - not engine power output. The Cartest computer program shows
transmission (drivetrain) loss in each gear. Note how the trany loss
increases linearly with RPM/trany speed in each gear. The maximum
loss is *nearly* the same in each gear, even though the acceleration
(velocity increase) is much greater in 1st gear compared to 4th gear.

Conclusions:
1) Drivetrain loss is an almost linear function of engine speed. As
such, a percentage drivetrain loss is only appropriate if the
percentage is of engine speed (RPM) not engine power output.
2) Changing engine power output (that is, changing the acceleration
characteristics of the car) does not appreciably change the
drivetrain loss - as other members have noted.
3) By analogy, aerodynamic and tire friction losses (the other major
components of total power loss) also depend primarily on speed
(vehicle speed in this case) and do not increase appreciably with
engine power output.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:36:58 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: Team3S: ? about sunroofs

Ok so I have a 93 VR-4 with no sunroof...... I really want to have an
electric one installed, should I see about getting a factory mitsu one? Or
does this list have a recommendation for a QUALITY one that will not leak a
year after I get it?

Russ F
CT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:40:52 -0800
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

another factor......something as silly as tire air presure will also
effect the dyno results (wheel dyno of course) We spent about 30
minutes recording everything from engine fumes to tire presure to
measure the before and after results with my front pipe I made. I was
suprised about it but it makes sense.....less tire presure in the
tires=less HP numbers.....one thing for sure, sitting in my car doing
130mph next to a guy holding a button and screeming "looking good" is
a little uneasy........I can't help but think of that movie Faris
Beuler's Day Off.

- ---- Original Message ----
From: fastmax@cox.net
To: ek2mfg@foxinternet.com, pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com,
>team3s@team3s.com
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S:
>Hesitation ; - )
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:35:19 -0800

>Instead of waiting on the sidelines for the fog to clear how about
>reading up on the wonders of testing with a dyno --- if you're
>willing to learn rather than wait for somebody to tell you the answer
>I can send you some links that will get you on your way to being to
>being the rocket scientist your mom always wanted you to be.
>
>        Jim Berry
>============================================
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
>
>
>> I am finding this confusing? Who that is part of this topic
>actually
>> has done a dyno run with thier car
>< snip>
>
>> This is the part I hate about this List...the rocket
>> scientists who prove theory and have no basis or personal
>experience
>> to comment on. Maybe I am way off base here.........I think I will
>> just watch from the sidelines for while again till the fog clears.
>>
>> bobk.
>> 93 R/T 99 Conversion

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:07:38 -0600
From: "Black, Dave (ICT)" <dblai@allstate.com>
Subject: Team3S: Partial dash removal instructions posted

This message is for those of you who have recently purchased gauge faces and
were interested in instructions on removing the dash to get at the center
gauge pod. I have posted instructions along with ample pics at
http://www.daveblack.net/asp/DashRemoval.asp

These instructions offer pics and can be used together with Keith Johnson's
instructions on removing the Center Gauge Pod. I attempted to go into more
detail in certain areas and provide pics as well.

Feedback welcomed.

Dave 95VR4
http://www.daveblack.net

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:25:34 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject: Team3S: Reset the radio......

Ok so yes I am an idiot, I entered in the wrong code into my radio 3
times.....   Now it wont take any input is there a way to reset the damn
thing so I can put the correct code (Dealer was actually helpful?) Please
tell me I do not need to cough up 70 bucks?!?!?!!!

This is on a 93 vr-4 with the in dash cassette with 6 disc changer.

Russ F
CT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:27:12 -0800
From: "Pete" <pbozanich@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: rear wheel bearings

Does any body have any info on replacing the rear wheel bearings? I replaced
the front hub,bearings on my car. It looks like you need to take the control
arm off in the back, I believe the bearings need to be pressed on, but Im
not sure. If any body has any input it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pete, 91 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:30:06 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Reset the radio......

> Ok so yes I am an idiot, I entered in the wrong code into my radio 3
> times.....   Now it wont take any input is there a way to
> reset the damn
> thing so I can put the correct code (Dealer was actually
> helpful?) Please tell me I do not need to cough up 70 bucks?!?!?!!!

Turn ignition to "On", motor not running. Turn radio on (I think it
displays "lock" or something like that). Let sit for an hour that way.
Come back and it should say "Code". If not, turn radio off and back on.
Should be reset at that point.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:35:35 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S: Hesitation ; - )

You bring up one of the problems with comparing dyno results --- variables of
all sorts. There are correction factors for things such as air pressure, temp,
humidity etc but things such as snow tires [ ask Roger ], tire pressure, oil
and gear lube viscosities, I/C temps, fuel etc. etc. all cause inaccuracies
when trying to compare cars. Some of the items can even cause changes
between runs --- I/C temps for example.

        Jim Berry

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>You

> another factor......something as silly as tire air presure will also
> effect the dyno results (wheel dyno of course) We spent about 30
> minutes recording everything from engine fumes to tire presure to
> measure the before and after results with my front pipe I made. I was
> suprised about it but it makes sense.....less tire presure in the
> tires=less HP numbers.....one thing for sure, sitting in my car doing
> 130mph next to a guy holding a button and screeming "looking good" is
> a little uneasy........I can't help but think of that movie Faris
> Beuler's Day Off.
>
> ---- Original Message ----
> From: fastmax@cox.net
> To: ek2mfg@foxinternet.com, pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com,
> >team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss; was Re: Team3S:
> >Hesitation ; - )
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:35:19 -0800
>
> >Instead of waiting on the sidelines for the fog to clear how about
> >reading up on the wonders of testing with a dyno --- if you're
> >willing to learn rather than wait for somebody to tell you the answer
> >I can send you some links that will get you on your way to being to
> >being the rocket scientist your mom always wanted you to be.
> >
> >        Jim Berry
> >============================================
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "ek2mfg" <ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
> >
> >> I am finding this confusing? Who that is part of this topic
> >actually
> >> has done a dyno run with thier car
> >< snip>
> >
> >> This is the part I hate about this List...the rocket
> >> scientists who prove theory and have no basis or personal
> >experience
> >> to comment on. Maybe I am way off base here.........I think I will
> >> just watch from the sidelines for while again till the fog clears.
> >>
> >> bobk.
> >> 93 R/T 99 Conversion

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:35:22 -0600
From: "Richard Fennell" <realmstl@charter.net>
Subject: Fw: Team3S: ? about sunroofs

A friend of mine used to work for a shop that put in sunroofs for
dealerships.

I don't know about the validity of this, but he said most the sunroofs you
see are installed by shops like the one he worked for.
If you believe that, then ask the dealership for the names of some of these
shops and go direct.

The only sunroofs I've had that leaked were ones that probably the previous
owner put in.

Rich
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Furman, Russell" <RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
To: "'Team 3S'" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:36 PM
Subject: Team3S: ? about sunroofs

> Ok so I have a 93 VR-4 with no sunroof...... I really want to have an
> electric one installed, should I see about getting a factory mitsu one? Or
> does this list have a recommendation for a QUALITY one that will not leak
a
> year after I get it?
>
> Russ F
> CT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:50:30 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance driver signal?

All -

Our cars (VR-4 in my case) use low-impedance, peak-and-hold type injectors.
Is it possible to drive a high-impedance injector off the car's stock
low-impedance injector driver signal? So far in my internet research I've
seen one person say no, and another say you can run a HI injector off a LI
signal, but not vice versa. Hardly conclusive thus far. Anybody got a
definitive answer? Could a put together a circuit that would convert one to
the other? (I'm not an EE by any means!)

>From some random webpage: http://members.aol.com/A74Pantera/EFIhrdwr.htm
Throttle body injectors are usually 1.2 or 2.4 ohm and are considered Low
impedance. Port injectors can be either 2.4 or 12-16 ohm with the 12-16 ohm
injectors being considered high impedance. High impedance injectors are
general purpose and used in many production cars and are driven with what is
called saturation drivers. The Low impedance injectors are usually found in
high performance injectors or injectors used on high RPM engines and require
a Peak and Hold type of driver. High impedance injectors can be used on
either type of driver, but Low Impedance injectors cannot be used on a
Saturation driver.

Don't worry - I'm not looking at switching my car over to high-impedance
injectors, just looking for an inexpensive way to control a water injection
system that takes RPM into consideration. Aquamist makes what they call a
"High Speed Valve" - essentially a high-impedance injector designed to flow
water. I was thinking that if I could run this water injector off one of
the fuel injector signals, I'd always get a good fuel/water proportion. The
volume of water would be adjusted by the number/size of the injection
nozzles. Will it work?

Thanks,
- - Brian

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:43:27 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: rear wheel bearings

One of the guys at 3SI.org just did it --- you could do a search.

It's fairly easy --- the big problem is the 30mm nut on the back of
the stub axel. An air wrench makes it a lot easier but a breaker bar should
work. The only thing you have to remove is the rotor and caliper and the
one end of the half shaft. I left the rotor on and stuck a screwdriver in the
cooling vanes to act as a stop when removing the 30mm nut. Book sez
a slike hammer to remove the stub axel from the housing but I just tapped
it with a hammer.

PS --- have a manual.

        Jim Berry
=================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete" <pbozanich@hotmail.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Cc: "pete bozanich" <pbozanich@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 2:27 PM
Subject: Team3S: rear wheel bearings

> Does any body have any info on replacing the rear wheel bearings? I replaced
> the front hub,bearings on my car. It looks like you need to take the control
> arm off in the back, I believe the bearings need to be pressed on, but Im
> not sure. If any body has any input it would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Pete, 91 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:57:32 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance dr iver signal?

> Don't worry - I'm not looking at switching my car over to
> high-impedance injectors, just looking for an inexpensive way
> to control a water injection system that takes RPM into
> consideration. Aquamist makes what they call a "High Speed
> Valve" - essentially a high-impedance injector designed to
> flow water. I was thinking that if I could run this water
> injector off one of the fuel injector signals, I'd always get
> a good fuel/water proportion. The volume of water would be
> adjusted by the number/size of the injection nozzles. Will it work?

I personally wouldn't run anything in parallel with a fuel injector. Its
just too important a thing to mess with. If you get it wrong, you get to
replace your ECU. No good... Also, adding something in parallel with an
injector might cause the injector to inject less fuel which certainly isn't
what you want. The way you find that out is by having chunks of your
piston's ring land meet the valves.

I'd look for another way... Aquamist's 3D map water injection system seems
ideal. The other problem with running it alongside an injector is that it
will always be spraying, whether or not you are on boost or not. You'll
probably run out of water in a hurry.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:09:04 -0800
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance dr iver signal?

I talked to an Aquamist distributor who told me he has set up lots of cars
with a water inj valve running off the injector signal, and it worked
beautifully every time. All those cars ran low-impedance injectors, though.
Just trying to get a feel for whether it's possible...not necessarly ideal.

A few other comments below:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jannusch, Matt [mailto:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
>
> I personally wouldn't run anything in parallel with a fuel
> injector. Its
> just too important a thing to mess with. If you get it
> wrong, you get to
> replace your ECU. No good... Also, adding something in
> parallel with an
> injector might cause the injector to inject less fuel which
> certainly isn't
> what you want. The way you find that out is by having chunks of your
> piston's ring land meet the valves.
>
> I'd look for another way... Aquamist's 3D map water
> injection system seems ideal.

I'm actually trying to find a way AROUND bying that 3d map controller (MF2).
The high speed valve alone is $150, but the valve with the MF2 controller
jumps up to $450. That's a lot of gas. :)

> The other problem with running it alongside an
> injector is that it
> will always be spraying, whether or not you are on boost or
> not. You'll
> probably run out of water in a hurry.

I was going to wire a pressure switch in series so it wouldn't inject unless
the boost was above a certain point - say 8 PSI.

> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:14:13 -0800
From: Michael Gerhard <gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Reset the radio......

I did the same thing to my Chevy Tahoe. I called Delco and got the radio
number and then called a speedometer shop and they told me (after getting
some idea that I was the car owner and other than a crook) how to go about
resetting my code (which I think I had lost). They gave me a backdoor code
to get in and take care of things. I've yet to know if a Mitsu stereo
system would be similar. However, you might give a speedo shop a call and
they might be able to steer you in the right direction.

At 02:25 PM 3/5/02 , you wrote:
>Ok so yes I am an idiot, I entered in the wrong code into my radio 3
>times.....   Now it wont take any input is there a way to reset the damn
>thing so I can put the correct code (Dealer was actually helpful?) Please
>tell me I do not need to cough up 70 bucks?!?!?!!!
>
>This is on a 93 vr-4 with the in dash cassette with 6 disc changer.
>
>Russ F
>CT

           ~~ Michael Gerhard ~~

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:18:00 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance dr iver signal?

> I talked to an Aquamist distributor who told me he has set up
> lots of cars with a water inj valve running off the injector
> signal, and it worked beautifully every time. All those cars
> ran low-impedance injectors, though. Just trying to get a
> feel for whether it's possible...not necessarly ideal.

I'd personally recommend staying as close to "ideal" as possible. I'd hate
to see someone go through an engine rebuild like I did when they could've
prevented it by using the right tool for the job.

Your thoughts may differ, though. ;-)

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
With a $5,000 bill stuffed in the motor.
$300 more for the right tool is downright cheap.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:04:26 -0800
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trunk mounted battery

> Sooooo, I bought a Optima Red Top this last weekend...900 amps and only
$115.00!!!
>
> Now the dilemma. I thought it would be a great idea to go all the way so I
bought a NHRA rated Moroso polyethylene airtight box and battery kill
switch. BUT, I cannot locate a space anywhere in the trunk where I can
install the box. I can squeeze the battery itself into the right rear
corner, and can drill one hole to the outside of the frame and one to the
inside (over the gas tank) for the steel strap but can't come up with a
solution for the box as it's approximately two inches larger all the way
around. Has anyone successfully installed a sealed box? If so, where? I'm
thinking I may resort to having a stainless steel tray fabricated, screw it
to the floor pan, and use the strap with two strap bolts to hold it in the
tray should I decide to try driving upside down. Suggestions???

Have you considered taking out your spare tire? Many of my friends that
went crazy with their car stereos removed their spare tires for the extra
room. Some of them just have a can of tire sealer in their trunk just in
case.

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:15:57 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

Well, hmm... Call me a nutcase but I actually downloaded the CarTest
software and played with it. Guys, you won't believe me. This is the best
car simulation software I have ever seen! Never again will I have to use
online horsepower calculators! Thanks Jim M. and thanks Jeff L.

First let's set it clear. The "drivetrain loss" that we are talking about
is the difference between the engine HP and the wheel HP. This thing
consists of the drivetrain loss and the tire loss. Add the aerodynamic loss
to it and you will get the total horsepower loss. The difference between
the total loss and the engine horsepower is what makes the car accelerate.

I might have to take a beating later on from some of the guys here for
doing this but I did it anyway. In this CarTest software I doubled both the
torque and the horsepower. The tire loss stayed almost unchanged but the
drivetrain loss doubled. Conclusion: (please do not shoot the messenger
;-) the drivetrain loss is a percentage of engine power output.

There is version 4.5 at the bottom of the page
http://home.earthlink.net/~patglenn/ct.html and version 2000 at the top.
Version 4.5 is shareware and version 2000 is a demo. Send the guy $20 if
you are going to play with it too long.

Philip

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:30:30 -0800
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

>In this CarTest software I doubled both the
>torque and the horsepower. The tire loss stayed almost unchanged but the
>drivetrain loss doubled. Conclusion: (please do not shoot the messenger
> ;-) the drivetrain loss is a percentage of engine power output.

This is assuming that the person who made the software is 100% correct in
his theory, coding and algorhythms, and had all of the correct data to back
it up. I guess since the odds are that the software maker knows more than I
do then I will take his word for it until I see otherwise.

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:35:42 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

Not so fast --- that same programmer was probably selling underware at
Sears 2 years ago. Read these two articles for what I think is a reasonable
approach to drivetrain loss.

http://www.sdsefi.com/techdyno.htm

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power3.htm

        Jim Berry
=======================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>

> >In this CarTest software I doubled both the
> >torque and the horsepower. The tire loss stayed almost unchanged but the
> >drivetrain loss doubled. Conclusion: (please do not shoot the messenger
> > ;-) the drivetrain loss is a percentage of engine power output.
>
> This is assuming that the person who made the software is 100% correct in
> his theory, coding and algorhythms, and had all of the correct data to back
> it up. I guess since the odds are that the software maker knows more than I
> do then I will take his word for it until I see otherwise.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:54:33 -0500
From: "Mike Frey" <mike21b@ptd.net>
Subject: Team3S: Humbled by a Viper

(Note: tech topic to follow)

I know the title is what we should expect..... This morning, I drove the
Stealth to work. As I merged onto the freeway, a red Viper zipped alongside.
Both our cars are red and have "Dodge" and "R/T" on them, and that's where
the similarity ends. I guess testosterone got the both of us - he punched
it, and so did I. I was in 3rd, going about 60, so was far enough into the
power band to not lose any punch.

No contest. Said Viper just blew me away. As expected.

It got me thinking, though. 3s's can be modified in stages. Suppose I had
the one that gets the car to about 450 hp, and here's the question(s): Just
how "streetable" are these cars with modifications like that? What do you
sacrifice? I'm sure that, with the mods that get upwards of 500+ hp, you
lose drivability - how about reliability?

Mike
92 RT/TT

PS - it's still fun pulling away from almost anything in 0-60 on wet roads!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:00:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Humbled by a Viper

Depends(tm).

You can build a lot of reliability into even 700Hp, just costs money.

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Mike Frey wrote:

> (Note: tech topic to follow)
>
> I know the title is what we should expect..... This morning, I drove the
> Stealth to work. As I merged onto the freeway, a red Viper zipped alongside.
> Both our cars are red and have "Dodge" and "R/T" on them, and that's where
> the similarity ends. I guess testosterone got the both of us - he punched
> it, and so did I. I was in 3rd, going about 60, so was far enough into the
> power band to not lose any punch.
>
> No contest. Said Viper just blew me away. As expected.
>
> It got me thinking, though. 3s's can be modified in stages. Suppose I had
> the one that gets the car to about 450 hp, and here's the question(s): Just
> how "streetable" are these cars with modifications like that? What do you
> sacrifice? I'm sure that, with the mods that get upwards of 500+ hp, you
> lose drivability - how about reliability?
>
> Mike
> 92 RT/TT
>
> PS - it's still fun pulling away from almost anything in 0-60 on wet roads!

Geoff Mohler

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 22:05:02 -0500
From: griz600cc@comcast.net
Subject: Team3S: Re: Indelgo Guage Faces

It's really not too bad. I finished it in under an hour. (And that is while
photgraphing the whole process.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Susko, Kevin" <SuskoK@westinghouse.com>
To: <griz600cc@comcast.net>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: Indelgo Guage Faces

> Saw your post on Team3S and was wondering how much of a PITA it was to put
> those on. I got mine Thursday (Pittsburgh) and havent tried to install
them
> yet.
>
> Kevin..just wondering what I am in for

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 21:54:50 -0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Team3S: A 9.98 sec 3Ser

Hi Team,

Those of you who did not follow the slightly geeky drivetrain loss thread
probably missed a cool software link
http://home.earthlink.net/~patglenn/ct.html. Jim Berry claims that he knows
the programmer as they worked at Sears together 2 years ago selling
underwear <joke>. The software actually is pretty advanced and accurate. I
ran an interesting simulation that produced a recipe for a sub 10 sec car.

The ingredients:
1) Triple the horsepower = 960 HP
2) Reduce the weight to 3300 lbs.

Here are the simulation results:

HP Torque Weight 1/4 mile ET
320 315 3970 14.08

640 630 3970 11.58

640 630 3300 11.00

960 945 3300 9.98

Any other combination with power/weight = 0.291 should work just as well.
The first one to run below 10.0 seconds owes me a beer!

Philip

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 21:58:51 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Selling a Stealth

My daughter is selling her 91 Stealth.

Somebody is driving over here to Cedar Rapids from Michigan to look at it this weekend, and if he has any smarts at all, he'll buy it. Price is over book at $12,500, but it's worth every penny. I doubt if there is another clean, low mileage, warranteed car with all the right mods like this anywhere in the universe.

It has:
44,000 miles
Eibach springs
Kormex Tranny (this is the "fix" for the tranny. She hasn't had any problems with the car).
Blitz Turbo Timer and Boost Controller
Borla Exhaust
Gutted Cats
K&N air filter
Chrome wheels (plus stock wheels, which she will throw in N/C)
Tinted windows
Brand New shifter boot and base vinyl
New brakes

It is immaculate. Not a scratch on it. And it has a 70,000 mile warranty with 12 months left.

If anybody is interested, come back.

Rich/slow old poop/94 VR4/not nearly as pretty.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:23:36 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A 9.98 sec 3Ser

Hell, I was designing computers before God invented DOS. I didn't show
up until well after dirt was invented though.

The DOS version of that program has been has been around forever --- and
so the guy that wrote it would have to be fired and maybe got a job at Sears.

The math required for that program is pretty straight forward --- ET and trap
speed programs abound. However, I wouldn't expect any original research
was done when writing the software.

Matt is the most likely to get to the sub 10 level but Artie could if the Nasdaq
would turn around and give him a financial boost --- his origional goal was
1100 hp.

        Jim berry
=================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
To: <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 6:54 PM
Subject: Team3S: A 9.98 sec 3Ser

> Hi Team,
>
> Those of you who did not follow the slightly geeky drivetrain loss thread
> probably missed a cool software link
> http://home.earthlink.net/~patglenn/ct.html. Jim Berry claims that he knows
> the programmer as they worked at Sears together 2 years ago selling
> underwear <joke>. The software actually is pretty advanced and accurate. I
> ran an interesting simulation that produced a recipe for a sub 10 sec car.
>
> The ingredients:
> 1) Triple the horsepower = 960 HP
> 2) Reduce the weight to 3300 lbs.
>
> Here are the simulation results:
>
> HP Torque Weight 1/4 mile ET
> 320 315 3970 14.08
>
> 640 630 3970 11.58
>
> 640 630 3300 11.00
>
> 960 945 3300 9.98
>
> Any other combination with power/weight = 0.291 should work just as well.
> The first one to run below 10.0 seconds owes me a beer!
>
> Philip

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:29:20 -0800
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Humbled by a Viper

One of the nice things about a turbo car is that the drivability remains good.
To get big HP out of a NA car you need lots of inches, exotic cams, high
compression ratios etc. etc --- as a result driveability starts to suffer.

        Jim Berry
==============================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Frey" <mike21b@ptd.net>

> (Note: tech topic to follow)
>
> I know the title is what we should expect..... This morning, I drove the
> Stealth to work. As I merged onto the freeway, a red Viper zipped alongside.
> Both our cars are red and have "Dodge" and "R/T" on them, and that's where
> the similarity ends. I guess testosterone got the both of us - he punched
> it, and so did I. I was in 3rd, going about 60, so was far enough into the
> power band to not lose any punch.
>
> No contest. Said Viper just blew me away. As expected.
>
> It got me thinking, though. 3s's can be modified in stages. Suppose I had
> the one that gets the car to about 450 hp, and here's the question(s): Just
> how "streetable" are these cars with modifications like that? What do you
> sacrifice? I'm sure that, with the mods that get upwards of 500+ hp, you
> lose drivability - how about reliability?
>
> Mike
> 92 RT/TT
>
> PS - it's still fun pulling away from almost anything in 0-60 on wet roads!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:34:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Humbled by a Viper

Depends(tm).

The T/A before the SC project was only 80Hp lighter, but a TON quicker,
and except for the exhaust note..idled as smooth as stock.

There are tradeoffs, but its all in the engineering.

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, fastmax wrote:

> One of the nice things about a turbo car is that the drivability remains good.
> To get big HP out of a NA car you need lots of inches, exotic cams, high
> compression ratios etc. etc --- as a result driveability starts to suffer.
>
>         Jim Berry
> ==============================================
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Frey" <mike21b@ptd.net>
>
> > (Note: tech topic to follow)
> >
> > I know the title is what we should expect..... This morning, I drove the
> > Stealth to work. As I merged onto the freeway, a red Viper zipped alongside.
> > Both our cars are red and have "Dodge" and "R/T" on them, and that's where
> > the similarity ends. I guess testosterone got the both of us - he punched
> > it, and so did I. I was in 3rd, going about 60, so was far enough into the
> > power band to not lose any punch.
> >
> > No contest. Said Viper just blew me away. As expected.
> >
> > It got me thinking, though. 3s's can be modified in stages. Suppose I had
> > the one that gets the car to about 450 hp, and here's the question(s): Just
> > how "streetable" are these cars with modifications like that? What do you
> > sacrifice? I'm sure that, with the mods that get upwards of 500+ hp, you
> > lose drivability - how about reliability?
> >
> > Mike
> > 92 RT/TT
> >
> > PS - it's still fun pulling away from almost anything in 0-60 on wet roads!

Geoff Mohler

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:51:39 -0700
From: "Mike & Cathy" <micajoco@theofficenet.com>
Subject: Team3S: installing subwoofers

has anyone installed an amp and subwoofers into their stealth or 3000gt?
was there any problem hooking up to stock system?
MikeS 92r/t tt

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:19:07 -0800
From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: installing subwoofers

I just installed an Infinity powered sub in mine. I had an aftermarket mp3
player installed but the sub does comes with hardware to splice directly
into your speaker wires. This lets you keep your stock head unit without
having to buy any other signal converters. The sub is a 200 watt powered
servo 10" with a 10" radiator on the back. It sounds great and for $300 you
can't find anything else that sounds that good. It is about the size of a
large book shelf speaker. I mounted it towards the front of the trunk but
it won't fit in the small space behind the rear seats. I still have most of
the trunk left. The 200 watts that this sub uses is close to the safe limit
that the stock alternator can handle if not a little over it. It isn't as
good as having a pair of 15" but you can't fit 15" in our trunks anyway. =)

Here is the link if you want to take a look:
http://www.infinitysystems.com/caraudio/product.asp?ProdId='BASSLINK'&Ser=BS
L&Cat=SUB

I bought mine for $300 at Fry's. I saw it for $400 at Circuit City.

Doug
92 Stealth RT TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Cathy" <micajoco@theofficenet.com>
To: "team3s stealth-3000gt" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:51 PM
Subject: Team3S: installing subwoofers

> has anyone installed an amp and subwoofers into their stealth or 3000gt?
> was there any problem hooking up to stock system?
> MikeS 92r/t tt

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:48:23 -0000
From: "George Shaw" <george.shaw@ukf.net>
Subject: Team3S: Ham/CB antenna installation

Any suggestions on the installation position and hardware for a CB/Ham
2M/70cm antenna on a 3000GT with manual glass roof (UK). I want
something
removable but solid (mag mount may work) I am happy to drill holes if
need
be. Over to you guys.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:46:55 -0600
From: "xwing" <xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

drivetrain loss has to be on some form of percentage basis.
Guarantee: I can turn my whole drivetrain with a wrench connected to the
transaxle input shaft.
I won't turn it FAST...but it will rotate all the wheels.
I also guarantee I'm not making 75 horsepower while I'm doing it!

It doesn't go from using 0 hp at 0 rpm, INSTANTLY up to 75hp the instant it
starts turning ANY rpm. That is what a "constant hp loss no matter what the
hp input" theory would require. You just wouldn't be able to TURN it, UNTIL
you made 75 hp...then it would FINALLY start turning. Naaah!

So, clearly it doesn't take 75hp to rotate the drivetrain at slow
speeds...it is NOT a fixed hp number...but at high speeds and torque/hp
input, when friction losses are multiplying, the horsepower requirement
increases greatly, and by some percentage of applied input power.
What percentage (or curve, approximated in the hp ranges of interest by a
percentage,) is the question.
JT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "fastmax" <fastmax@cox.net>
To: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>; <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

> Not so fast --- that same programmer was probably selling underware at
> Sears 2 years ago. Read these two articles for what I think is a
reasonable
> approach to drivetrain loss.
>
> http://www.sdsefi.com/techdyno.htm
>
> http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power3.htm
>
>         Jim Berry
> =======================================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dakken" <dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
>
> > >In this CarTest software I doubled both the
> > >torque and the horsepower. The tire loss stayed almost unchanged but
the
> > >drivetrain loss doubled. Conclusion: (please do not shoot the
messenger
> > > ;-) the drivetrain loss is a percentage of engine power output.
> >
> > This is assuming that the person who made the software is 100% correct
in
> > his theory, coding and algorhythms, and had all of the correct data to
back
> > it up. I guess since the odds are that the software maker knows more
than I
> > do then I will take his word for it until I see otherwise.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:27:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance driver signal?

The FWD/NA 3S models use high-resistance fuel injectors (uh,
impedance is for *AC* circuits). The AWD/turbo 3S models use
low-resistance injectors. The signal coming from the ECM is the same
in both models. The AWD/turbo models use a resistor (on the firewall
near the battery) to reduce voltage to the injectors. Give you any
ideas? The service manuals explain all this (and include circuit
diagrams).

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
To: "Team3S Mailing List (E-mail)" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>;
"Starnet Mailing List (E-mail)" <stealth@stls.verio.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 3:50 PM
Subject: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance
driver signal?
<snip>
Our cars (VR-4 in my case) use low-impedance, peak-and-hold type
injectors. Is it possible to drive a high-impedance injector off the
car's stock low-impedance injector driver signal?
<snip>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:58:58 -0500
From: "Calum McCusker" <Calum@Canalytical.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 91 v 94 & selling a Stealth ??

Rich

I was thinking about this as my fiancee and I are looking at getting a new
car and also one that can handle a family.

Surely your daughter wants something economical (small family and all that),
well the Stealth has to be more economical than the Mustang, it's very
comforatble over long distances, something a pregnant lady would desire.
I'm sure that there was a posting recently listing rear facing child seats
that will clip into the Stealth so it's defiinitely a family car (small
family true).
She'll want a safe car, Stealth again, imagine pulling out of a mall with
all the shopping, you want something with the power to escape trouble.
I know the emissions are low (not sure how they compare to a Mustang, but
it's a Japanese engine vs US so probably better), this way she's helping the
environment for the future of her little one.

I just heard a report that in extended cab pickups etc , children are 5x
more likely to get hurt than in a regular car, I don't know any more details
than than but ergo, she again should stick with the Stealth.

tum te dum..did I miss anything guys ?

I think you should tell her that we all think she should keep the
Stealth..:)

All the best
Calum,
pretty blue but right now very slow RT (sniff)

Calum@Canalytical.com
www.Canalytical.com
an ISO 17025 Company
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>; <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 3:55 PM
Subject: Team3S: 91 v 94

> Just drove my daughter's 91 Stealth this morning, so I was able to compare
a few things. Her car has 44K miles, a DSBC, no cats, Borla, Eibach springs
and some sort of lowering kit (not Ground Control). It is a very nice street
car, sounds good, drives good, and looks very good.
>
> My 94 is stiff, loud, and not a very good street car any more, what with
the GC, Eibachs, camber plates, sway bars, lowered to the max, Stillen, and
very loud custom cat back. My car does not look as good -- it just looks
mean.
>
> Comparisons:
>
> Love the five speed.
> I think 2nd gear in a 5 speed would be more useful for open tracking, cuz
it's much longer than 2nd in the six speed. I can think of several corners
where I wish I had such a gear. It also helps explain why the 1st gens don't
have overheating problems, because with the longer 2nd gear the car is not
into the turbos as much coming out of slower turns. Something to consider
for folks who are looking for a car in which to go open tracking. (Chuck:
you have both. What do you think about 5 spd v 6 spd?)
>
> Better looking.
> I hate to admit it, but a 91 red Stealth is much better looking than a
black 94 VR4. Geez, that's a gorgeous car! And not a scratch on it.
>
> Not faster.
> It seems to me that my stock engined 94 is every bit as fast -- if not
faster -- than her boost controlled car. I noticed that when I ran with the
Willises at Heartland Park - both their boost controlled cars had an edge on
me on the straights, but it was nothing to write home about. My car has
Alamo intercoolers, K&N and catback (lately a Stillen downpipe, but not at
Heartland). I wonder if that's enough on a road course? I suspect that a
boost controller is vitally important to drag racers, because it gives them
a half-second or so in the 1/4, but it doesn't seem to mean diddly for road
racers. I have a DSBC and a BOV ready to go in, so we'll see how much
difference there is then.
>
> Suspension mods really work.
> I took some of my 100 mph sweepers in the 91, and I can see the huge
difference that suspension mods provide. Compared to the VR4, the Stealth
now feels a little unstable, has some body roll, and makes me a little
nervous at the same speeds where the 94 just cruises through sedately.
Still, it ripped through the sweepers at 100+ without too much fuss.
>
> Nice to have multiple cars to compare, eh?
>
> By the bye, if anyone is interested, she might be selling the Stealth soon
(she's preggers, needs a family car). I suggested they sell their Cobra SVT
instead, but nobody listens to Dad.
>
> Rich/slow old poop/94 VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 06:57:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Percentage in drivetrain loss

So the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Would the
following statement be a fair assessment then?

Drivetrain loss (excluding tires) is a percentage of engine speed and
includes a multiplier for engine maximum torque.

Meaning that turn the drivetrain slowly (by hand if you want) and
loss is minimal. Turn the drivetrain quickly (particularly the
transaxle) and loss is higher, in an almost linear manner. Increase
the maximum engine torque to the tranny (that is, increase how fast
the components accelerate) and loss increases because, apparently,
acceleration does play a significant role in frictional and inertial
(I had considered only frictional in my earlier post and forgot about
inertial) losses besides simple velocity (linear or rotational).

Drivetrain loss is not strictly a function (percentage) of engine
torque (or bhp), else loss would decrease at higher speeds and rpm as
engine torque (and bhp) decreases.

Thanks, Phillip, for the CarTest2000 lesson/demo. I tried doubling HP
for the 1991 Stealth example and drivetrain loss (at each engine
speed) did double.

Jeff Lucius, http://www.stealth316.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "xwing" <xwing@wi.rr.com>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 6:46 AM
Subject: Team3S: Re: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <gphilip@umich.edu>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <stealthman92@yahoo.com>; "Jim Matthews"
<jim@the-matthews.com>; <team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Percentage in drivetrain loss

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 09:10:27 -0600
From: "merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 91 v 94 & selling a Stealth ??

>tum te dum..did I miss anything guys ?
>
>I think you should tell her that we all think she should keep the
>Stealth..:)
>
Calum:
Thanks for the support. I want her to keep the Stealth too, just so it stays in the family.

I'd buy it myself, but only if I could sell my black beast for a ton (then I'd race my Talon instead). Hey...Anybody want to buy a road-race-prepped, stock engine VR4? It runs with M3s, Cobra Rs and Z06s (almost).

They also have a cherry 99 SVT Cobra, but that's on the block too.

Kids and their toys.

You wouldn't believe the car they are considering. They want to pick up a two-year-old Lincoln Continental coming off lease. The dang things are dirt cheap these days. One was for sale locally for about $10K!!

My daddy told me years ago to hang on to a toy, because you'll never replace it. The family will always need something more important than a sports car/motorcycle/boat/snowmobile or whatnot. Boy was that ever true. I sold my BSA motorcycle when I got married 31 years ago (today, as a matter of fact), and never got another bike.

I may remedy that situation, though.

Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4
92 Talon TSi

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:35:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Casey Rayman <theturbodog@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Run high-impedance injectors off the low-impedance driver signal?

Just a note to the correction. The term is impedance because the
injectors are solenoid coils and act like an AC circuit because they
are being switched.

If you bypass the resistor pack it is possible to use high impedance
injetors. A few people have done it on Eclipses which have the same
injector drivers as the 3000. Most of the higher flow injectors are
peak-hold type tho.