Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, January 24 2002
Volume 01 : Number
735
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:28:42 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Cody,
I don't
doubt all that but then why don't more people use it? Well,
because
most of the time I bet it is illegal or against the gentlemanly
rules.
Now for a 1/4 mile that is fine. You KNOW how long Merritt runs
his
car, don't you? I only have experience at Kansas where there were
3
good places to hit the nitrous tank (the two 1/8 mile strips on the
back
side and the long front stretch -- if you were daring you could hit
it
after Turn 2 and before the carousel but that is iffy or just a 50
hp
shot). So this is three full shots and the front stretch might even
be
two shots.
But three full 150 hp shots. I don't know
how much nitrous that uses
up at once but running a 20-minute session and
laps are about 2:20 so
you get 9 full laps give or take a half lap or
so. 9 full laps with 3
full shots of nitrous per lap making 27 full
shots of nitrous in a
session. Well we had 7 sessions so that is about
a maximum of 189 shots
of nitrous. This is if you are really anxious
and want to blow them
away cleanly. I agree that sometimes it is only
used in the "emergency"
situations and not on every straight ... just trying
to prove a point
here.
How much does a $40 bottle contain and
how many blasts does it last?
Once a boost controller is set up ($450 for the
mother of all Apex'i),
Supra Fuel Pump ($100 you said, Rich), and 550
injectors ($450 group buy
plus maybe an install) that is $1,000. Boost
as long as you want and
you will never run out of Mother Nature's air.
Just have to refuel. I
think you would be in for at least 2-4 bottles
of the $40 size for a
weekend of racing. That is $80-$160 per
weekend. Do that 6-10 times a
year and you are at $1,000. Do it
the next year and you are starting to
lose money on the mod.
This is a quote from Nitrous FAQ (
http://drp.4t.com/nos_faq.html),
"How
long will the bottle last? This largely depends on the type of
nitrous
kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power Shot kit with
a
standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer up to 7 to 10 full
1/4
passes. If nitrous is only used in 2nd and 3rd gears, the number
of
runs will be more."
So you can expect to have about 5-8
good runs on a road course
described above then you need another 10 pound
bottle. Dang that is
expensive. I never see it referenced
anywhere about nitrous and a road
course car or hill climb. It is
ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath as
the 1/4 mile or street racing (aka
kids doing traffic light races).
Find me some references of road course cars
with nitrous and I might be
willing to change my view.
-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Cody Graham
[mailto:overclck@ies.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002
09:53
Sorry Darren... that just doesn't happen with Nitrous
Oxide. 1 in a
million bottles explode (and when they do, it's at least
partially the
operators fault). A nitrous bottle is the same type of
bottle you strap
directly to your back when you go SCUBA diving. They
have the same safe
pressure limit, etc. Thing is, Nitrous is not
combustible, Oxygen is.
So, in effect, you are strapping a bomb to your back
if you go SCUBA
diving.
Nitrous is forced induction, except
instead of mechanical forced, its
chemical forced. I never quite see
why so many people think its soooo
bad, or its cheating, or anything like
that...
I say go for it. It is much less expensive than a costly
turbo upgrade,
and its pretty easy to tune in. 200 Hp gain may be a tad
much, but I
could almost guarantee 100 - 150 on a stock 3/S turbo motor is
perfectly
ok. Remember though, if you are going for high HP shot like
you are,
you will need a higher flow fuel pump, or a secondary fuel pump
for
nitrous alone. Soon, I will have some numbers on how much a 150
shot
helped my N/A 3 Liter.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:34:55
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>
>Then there's always the
temptation to go one nozzle size higher until the
>motor
grenades...
>
So what about starting with a small nozzle, just to get
50-75 hp or so?
It'd be like turning up the boost, wouldn't it? If I kept the
nozzle small,
would that be safer for the engine?
Besides, I wouldn't
be using it all the time. Like I said, I don't need it
(or want it) in turns.
There are lots of places where we fly through a
turn (turn 4 at
Heartland Park after the Carousel is one, or turn 7) with
the throttle flat
at about 80 mph, and I would not want the nitrous to kick
in there. When I
take 7 correctly, I get a little air (well, the car gets
up on its tippytoes,
anyway) and set it down on the edge of the grass. With
NOx, I'd be IN the
grass.
However, it'd be nice to have it for the run down to 8, to
12 and out of
16 onto the front straight at Heartland Park. I could see using
NOx in
short 3-5 sec bursts on short straights and maybe for 10 seconds down
a
long straight. I can also envision short shifting at about 6,000 instead
of
running it up to 7200 under such conditions.
I don't need much.
Just enuf to pull a Cobra R down the straight at Road
America, where they
come up on me at about 170 whilst I'm motoring along at
125 or so.
.
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:33:18
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
What tech inspection? You
mean the one where they look at the Snell
sticker? Sheesh, Chuck,
you've been to Heartland Park. Think those guys
would find an NOx
bottle?
Rich
At 09:24 AM 1/24/02 -0600, Willis, Charles E.
wrote:
>
>> > What's the downside of running NOx on a road
course?
>>
> [Willis, Charles E.] Darren is right in one
regard - if it's
>noticed during tech inspection, you would be asked to
disconnect or not use
>it at a DE. It's considered poor form!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:38:18
-0600
From:
overclck@ies.net (Cody
Graham)
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Russell, this
is not how Nitrous works.
Nitrous Oxide systems include everything you
need to inject additional
fuel and everything. On a wet manifold or
direct port setup, fuel is
taken from the fuel feed line. This is then passed
through a solenoid to
open/close the line. After the solenoid the fuel
passes to either one
nozzle for wet manifold, or 6 nozzles on our cars for
direct port. At
each nozzle, there are small "pills" which regulate how
much fuel flows.
The same works for the nitrous injection. All of the
tuning is done via
the pills.
- -Cody
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Furman, Russell
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:27 AM
To: 'Jannusch, Matt'
Cc: 'Team
3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
It seems like it
could be done, using a direct port setup I do not see
why
not, just need
hella large injectors or run 450 primaries and then some
balanced stock 360's
and an AIC controller set up to fire the secondary
injectors when ever the
Nox is actuated.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jannusch,
Matt [SMTP:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002
10:11 AM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>
> > You mean
OTHER than the chance it could catastrophically
> > explode inside the
car like a car bomb?
>
> Unlikely, unless you install it in a
retarded manner.
>
> > You also won't be able to use it on the
street so all
> > that power you like at the track will be
lost.
>
> Why can't you press the button on the street? I'm
sure almost all the
> cars
> of people on this list are "illegal" in
the strictest sense of the
word.
> Half the cars on the list are
missing pre-cats. Some people have
Porsche
> brakes on their cars
which aren't DOT certified for use on 3000GT's.
Is a
> boost controller
technically legal? I dunno...
>
> > I'd stick with the
safer alternative. It just seems
> > "childish" to me.
>
> Power is power. Doesn't really matter much how you get
it.
>
> > And people AT a road course driving event will sneer
> > at you.
>
> Rich should come over to the dark
side... Switch to drag racing.....
:-)
>
> Seriously
though, to address Rich's original question: I think getting
200
>
extra "safe" HP on a VR4 motor just from NOS is going to be hard
to
come
> by
> without using forged pistons (at a minimum).
There's also tuning to
be
> done
> so it doesn't blow up the
motor - it seems like you'd just bolt it in
and
> go, but you still
need to make sure the air/fuel/nirous ratios are all
> correct for maximum
safe power.
>
> Then there's always the temptation to go one nozzle
size higher until
the
> motor grenades...
>
> I wouldn't
use it on a road course, but on a dragstrip on some old
beater
>
musclecar I'd certainly throw it on there - why not?
>
> Would I
put it on my VR4? Nope. Seems risky. Going the
>
turbo/injectors/boost route seems more "classy".
>
> 200 HP from
just nitrous seems "optimistic" to me.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:39:55
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
[Willis, Charles E.] I hope
no one thinks what we had for tech
inspection at Heartland Park is indicative
of what happens every place else.
[Willis, Charles E.] Sure, the
primary responsibility for the safety of the
vehicle is the driver/owner, but
some venues place more emphasis than
others.
I just volunteered to get
involved with at-track teching for Lone
Star Region, and I hope to make it a
useful teaching experience for novice
drivers many who don't know how to
check the oil.
> What tech inspection? You mean the one where
they look at the Snell
> sticker? Sheesh, Chuck, you've been to
Heartland Park. Think those guys
> would find an NOx bottle?
>
> Rich
>
> > [Willis, Charles E.] [Willis,
Charles E.] ... if it's
> >noticed during tech inspection,
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:43:51
-0600
From:
overclck@ies.net (Cody
Graham)
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
I never said it
was practical... I just said its not dangerous...
A 10 Lb. bottle is good
for about 2 minutes worth of usage using a 100
shot. That's 120
seconds, or 24 times worth of usage at 5 seconds a
piece.
BTW -
how much do BIG turbos cost???
- -Cody
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Darren Schilberg
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:29 AM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Stupid question about NOx
Cody,
I don't doubt
all that but then why don't more people use it? Well,
because most of
the time I bet it is illegal or against the gentlemanly
rules. Now for
a 1/4 mile that is fine. You KNOW how long Merritt runs
his car, don't
you? I only have experience at Kansas where there were 3
good places to
hit the nitrous tank (the two 1/8 mile strips on the back
side and the long
front stretch -- if you were daring you could hit it
after Turn 2 and before
the carousel but that is iffy or just a 50 hp
shot). So this is three
full shots and the front stretch might even be
two shots.
But
three full 150 hp shots. I don't know how much nitrous that uses
up at
once but running a 20-minute session and laps are about 2:20 so
you get 9
full laps give or take a half lap or so. 9 full laps with 3
full shots
of nitrous per lap making 27 full shots of nitrous in a
session. Well
we had 7 sessions so that is about a maximum of 189 shots
of nitrous.
This is if you are really anxious and want to blow them
away cleanly. I
agree that sometimes it is only used in the "emergency"
situations and not on
every straight ... just trying to prove a point
here.
How
much does a $40 bottle contain and how many blasts does it last?
Once a boost
controller is set up ($450 for the mother of all Apex'i),
Supra Fuel Pump
($100 you said, Rich), and 550 injectors ($450 group buy
plus maybe an
install) that is $1,000. Boost as long as you want and
you will never
run out of Mother Nature's air. Just have to refuel. I
think you
would be in for at least 2-4 bottles of the $40 size for a
weekend of
racing. That is $80-$160 per weekend. Do that 6-10 times a
year
and you are at $1,000. Do it the next year and you are starting to
lose
money on the mod.
This is a quote from Nitrous FAQ (
http://drp.4t.com/nos_faq.html),
"How
long will the bottle last? This largely depends on the type of
nitrous
kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power Shot kit with
a
standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer up to 7 to 10 full
1/4
passes. If nitrous is only used in 2nd and 3rd gears, the number
of
runs will be more."
So you can expect to have about 5-8
good runs on a road course
described above then you need another 10 pound
bottle. Dang that is
expensive. I never see it referenced
anywhere about nitrous and a road
course car or hill climb. It is
ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath as
the 1/4 mile or street racing (aka
kids doing traffic light races).
Find me some references of road course cars
with nitrous and I might be
willing to change my view.
-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Cody Graham
[mailto:overclck@ies.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002
09:53
Sorry Darren... that just doesn't happen with Nitrous
Oxide. 1 in a
million bottles explode (and when they do, it's at least
partially the
operators fault). A nitrous bottle is the same type of
bottle you strap
directly to your back when you go SCUBA diving. They
have the same safe
pressure limit, etc. Thing is, Nitrous is not
combustible, Oxygen is.
So, in effect, you are strapping a bomb to your back
if you go SCUBA
diving.
Nitrous is forced induction, except
instead of mechanical forced, its
chemical forced. I never quite see
why so many people think its soooo
bad, or its cheating, or anything like
that...
I say go for it. It is much less expensive than a costly
turbo upgrade,
and its pretty easy to tune in. 200 Hp gain may be a tad
much, but I
could almost guarantee 100 - 150 on a stock 3/S turbo motor is
perfectly
ok. Remember though, if you are going for high HP shot like
you are,
you will need a higher flow fuel pump, or a secondary fuel pump
for
nitrous alone. Soon, I will have some numbers on how much a 150
shot
helped my N/A 3 Liter.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:48:55
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
True the tech inspection was not too
official but I did feel good that I
had a full fire extinguisher (they never
checked), bled my brakes (they
never checked), had dual 5-point harnesses
with Grade 8.8 hardware (they
never checked), had an SFI race seat instead of
a piece of fiberglass
from the local Ricer store (they never checked),
etc. Everyone gets the
point that they never checked.
Now, if
you want to hit 170 mph at Road America then fine. If you want
to hit
140 mph at Heartland Park front stretch then fine. Don't forget
that
you still have to slow down your 4,000 pound car to the same speed
you were
doing before. I don't care if you have water-cooling to the
rotors and
air ducts ... you are gonna run out of brakes with just Big
Reds. Trust
me. I did. You will get at most one to two sessions
before you
have to bleed brakes and probably won't make it a weekend on
one set of race
pads or the rotors will be warped by then. I'm willing
to buy the
rotors and pads and have you prove it by using that whole
bottle as much as
you say you will. Power and speed is addicting, true.
I know I would
want larger and more power. Hence, still sticking with
the stock engine
until I get good enough to drive the car and master it.
Who says Big Reds
are not DOT legal on a 3/S? How can it pass
inspection then? I
would think that one is just BS until I ask the
mechanics and insurance
folks. AFAIK, my car is still 5-state legal ...
down to the K&N
FIPK that I purchased (didn't get the cheaper DSM
version since it was not
CA-approved). Why would make the car safer be
non-legal? That's
like saying putting in racing brake fluid is not DOT
legal but the cheaper
DOT 4 fluid is (even though it is not better by
any means).
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Merritt
Sent: Thursday,
January 24, 2002 10:35
Besides, I wouldn't be using it all the
time. Like I said, I don't need
it
(or want it) in turns. There are
lots of places where we fly through a
turn (turn 4 at Heartland Park after
the Carousel is one, or turn 7)
with
the throttle flat at about 80 mph,
and I would not want the nitrous to
kick
in there. When I take 7
correctly, I get a little air (well, the car
gets
up on its tippytoes,
anyway) and set it down on the edge of the grass.
With
NOx, I'd be IN the
grass.
However, it'd be nice to have it for the run down to 8, to
12 and out
of
16 onto the front straight at Heartland Park. I could see
using NOx in
short 3-5 sec bursts on short straights and maybe for 10 seconds
down a
long straight. I can also envision short shifting at about 6,000
instead
of
running it up to 7200 under such conditions.
I don't
need much. Just enuf to pull a Cobra R down the straight at Road
America,
where they come up on me at about 170 whilst I'm motoring along
at
125 or
so.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:49:45
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
> Once a boost controller is set
up ($450 for the
> mother of all Apex'i), Supra Fuel Pump ($100
>
you said, Rich), and 550 injectors ($450 group
> buy plus maybe an
install) that is $1,000.
Plus a fuel controller - $350+. Plus an
A/F gauge so you can see what you
are tuning too ($30-100). Plus an EGT
gauge to be extra safe since
roadracing is more demanding on the motor than
dragracing ($200-300).
$1600+
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:58:48
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
I didn't get in to turbos because I
know they cost a lot. You CAN use
boost controllers on stock 9B turbos
and get performance ya know. Rich
already has a Supra Fuel Pump I
believe and Alamo Intercoolers so now
his restriction seems to be the exhaust
and the injectors and the turbo.
Put nitrous on there and he won't need
bigger turbos.
But we all have different driving styles. I read
early on how AWD cars
can apply power before the apex while RWD guys have to
wait until after
the apex and FWD guys can apply at the apex but only have
two wheels
pulling them through while we have four. So I have changed
my road
driving to incorporate this. I now get the turbo lag done with
by the
time I GET to the apex so from then on I have no lag and turbos are
on
full pull. Incorporate this with the never-taught left foot braking
and
my turbos never loose their spool through a turn (like Turn 16
at
Heartland Park that leads to the longest straight stretch). Just a
half
second there is monumental in a higher speed at the end.
And no
it is not as dangerous as people say. It is only nitrogen
and
oxygen. Helps to cool the combustion area (down to -125 F at
perfect
stage) which helps dramatically but with the increased oxygen if it
DOES
let go then it lets go catastrophically. And what about putting it
on
an 8+ year old car with nearly 100k miles? :-/ That's getting
close to
making sure the engine still has new gaskets, seals, etc. before
getting
started. That all adds in to the cost of it.
24 shots of
5 seconds is 3 times per lap at Heartland Park (shorter than
Road America I
think although it might have more chances to hit the
button since it has
three absolutely straight sections and Road America
has that nasty long front
one but the entire back is just a gradual
radius). 3 times per lap into
24 times per bottle is only 8 laps. That
is one full session.
Come in, check brakes, change bottle. There's $40
down the drain.
Once all the boost controller, etc. mods get in will it
cost $40 per
session? No. Higher cost initially but useful on street,
drag,
road course, hill climb, not frowned upon as much, etc. My money
is on
the boost controller style.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Cody Graham
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002
10:44
I never said it was practical... I just said its not
dangerous...
A 10 Lb. bottle is good for about 2 minutes worth of usage
using a 100
shot. That's 120 seconds, or 24 times worth of usage at 5
seconds a
piece.
BTW - how much do BIG turbos
cost???
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:08:16
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>A 10 Lb. bottle is good for
about 2 minutes worth of usage using a 100
>shot. That's 120
seconds, or 24 times worth of usage at 5 seconds a
>piece.
>
Hmm...seems awfully expensive. That's like $160 per weekend.
Guess you guys are right -- NOx doesn't work for road racing.
I just had
to ask.
Rich/slow old poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:15:37
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Just remember that Rich has already
strayed away from the typical way
nitrous is installed. Usually the
bottle install is followed by an
over-bass filled thumping that rattles the
windows, window tinting,
lowering the car with cheap springs, putting
35-series tires on the car,
getting those aluminum foil-looking wheels, and
then applying stickers
to the outside.
Hopefully people can see the
fun I'm making.
But Rich already has GC coilovers, Alamo intercoolers,
larger fuel pump,
etc. Not sure if he has or is getting anti-sway bars
and/or strut tower
braces. But that all has cost a pretty penny already
(track wheels,
track tires, Big Reds, race pads, race fluid, SS lines ...)
and it seems
like going to nitrous that he could have skipped the last 5
years of
mods and done nitrous from the beginning. Nope, he
didn't. Suspension
was maybe $650-$1,000 itself (not sure). Big
Reds are about
$1,500-$2,000 depending on options (SS lines, brake pads,
rotors, etc.).
I don't think any street or drag car out there has Big Reds
and race
pads. Everyone I ever see at a Gathering (hit about 4-6
Gatherings a
year and watch about 80 cars take to the strip) ... and not ONE
of them
has Big Reds. Most they ever have is the Porterfield R4-S or
some Hawk
Blues or something for the street.
So Rich has a good mix of
"go fast on straights and keep cool, stay fast
in turns, and stop fast for
turns" on the car already. I'd hate to see
his money go down the drain
or at least not be as usable on the car
anymore. I know I wouldn't like
that. I keep trying to make each mod
compliment the last ones and be a
step up for another on in the future.
I'm finally going to get a rear
anti-sway bar (group buy recently).
That is after three driving events where
the instructor nearly felt sick
in the amount of body roll on stock
suspension. I'm holding out for the
Tein coilovers instead of just
getting springs since I have the dreaded
95 VR-4 with power sunroof and no
ECS. Tein is $2,000 ... rear
anti-sway bar is $165. The rear
anti-sway bar though will help later on
with suspension mods so it is a good
first step.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 10:50
Plus a
fuel controller - $350+. Plus an A/F gauge so you can see
what
you
are tuning too ($30-100). Plus an EGT gauge to be extra
safe since
roadracing is more demanding on the motor than dragracing
($200-300).
$1600+
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:52:27
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: Stupid question about NOx
You'll chew thru a 20lb
bottle of NOS in less than a single session.
I wouldnt call it childish,
just 'champagne dreams on a beer budget'
hopefull
thinking.
Merritt: It you -want- to run with the big boys..upgrade
or get a better
car. If you want to have fun..just go out and have
fun. I love lots of
HP at the track too, but I enjoy the hell out of
any of my cars that range
from 140Hp to 740Hp in the big-boys run group..and
they enjoy me keeping
them guessing how each vehicle can mess with em as
well.
Im currently looking for a GM dealer to -give- me two LT1 C5s for
our race
team..and one is almost there. The deal is we also use the
dealers name
as part of the Speedtoys.Com Handicapped Pro Series within NASA,
and
Lingenfelter has ponied up for all the mods, body & paint work.
NEXT year
will be a fun season we hope.
PS: Sears Point Feb
2-3rd.
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Darren Schilberg wrote:
> You mean
OTHER than the chance it could catastrophically explode inside
> the car
like a car bomb? You'll never have any of your other mods
>
exploding like that. You also won't be able to use it on the street
so
> all that power you like at the track will be lost. I'd stick
with the
> safer alternative. It just seems "childish" to me.
I didn't grow up in
> the good ol' days though so I never saw it
used. But nobody uses it in
> "real" racing (rally, road events,
Speedvision, British Touring Car,
> German Porsche Supercup, etc.).
And people AT a road course driving
> event will sneer at you. Not
sure if you would be allowed to run it in
> our groups around here.
I bet they would make you disconnect it.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995
VR-4
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Merritt
>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 02:12
>
> What's the
downside of running NOx on a road course?
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:52:49
-0500
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.comSubject:
Team3S: re:Floppy Clutch Pedal Question
I agree that it's most likely a
leak in the hydraulic system. Lift up the
carpet under the clutch pedal. If
it's damp there, then you're Master
Cylinder is probably leaking. It leaks to
the inside of the car and runs
down the firewall onto the floorboard. If
that's not the case, look on top
of the tranny, in the area between the
battery and the throttle body. Look
down in there and see if you see any
fluid laying on top of the tranny near
the rear side close to the
bellhousing. If you see a puddle there, then
either your Slave cylinder or
hose is leaking. To answer your other
question, the bleed nipple is located
on the slave cylinder.
Hope this helps.
Jeff W.
'92
VR4
Belleville, MI
>My 93 Stealth ES (FWD) "suddenly" developed a
floppy clutch pedal today.
>This morning, the pedal gave very very light
resistance to pressure
through
>about 3/4 of its travel. Once I
reached the "strong point", the car
seemed
>to shift OK. This
evening, shifting was very hard, and before I made it
>home from work the
pedal no longer returned after being depressed. At
the
>last stop
light, I was unable to shift into first, and when I put
the
tranny
>into 2nd gear the car was pulling forward even while the
pedal was fully
>depressed.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:00:32
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Its not dangerous??
I would
disagree.
If I roll my car at the track, I dont wish to have the
equivelant of
100lbs of TNT in my car asking for a good bang on
something.
No..it wont explode/burn, but the shrapnel from the bottle and
everything
around it will go thru a house. Anyone recall the maxima
that had a nos
bottle blow up in the garage? Car looked like a cartoon
paper bag
explosion in the rear half.
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Cody Graham
wrote:
> I never said it was practical... I just said its not
dangerous...
>
> A 10 Lb. bottle is good for about 2 minutes worth
of usage using a 100
> shot. That's 120 seconds, or 24 times worth
of usage at 5 seconds a
> piece.
>
> BTW - how much do
BIG turbos cost???
>
> -Cody
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of Darren Schilberg
>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:29 AM
> To: 'Team3S'
> Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>
> Cody,
>
> I don't doubt all that but then why don't more
people use it? Well,
> because most of the time I bet it is illegal
or against the gentlemanly
> rules. Now for a 1/4 mile that is
fine. You KNOW how long Merritt runs
> his car, don't you? I
only have experience at Kansas where there were 3
> good places to hit the
nitrous tank (the two 1/8 mile strips on the back
> side and the long
front stretch -- if you were daring you could hit it
> after Turn 2 and
before the carousel but that is iffy or just a 50 hp
> shot). So
this is three full shots and the front stretch might even be
> two
shots.
> But three full 150 hp shots. I don't know
how much nitrous that uses
> up at once but running a 20-minute session
and laps are about 2:20 so
> you get 9 full laps give or take a half lap
or so. 9 full laps with 3
> full shots of nitrous per lap making 27
full shots of nitrous in a
> session. Well we had 7 sessions so that
is about a maximum of 189 shots
> of nitrous. This is if you are
really anxious and want to blow them
> away cleanly. I agree that
sometimes it is only used in the "emergency"
> situations and not on every
straight ... just trying to prove a point
>
here.
> How much does a $40 bottle contain and how many
blasts does it last?
> Once a boost controller is set up ($450 for the
mother of all Apex'i),
> Supra Fuel Pump ($100 you said, Rich), and 550
injectors ($450 group buy
> plus maybe an install) that is $1,000.
Boost as long as you want and
> you will never run out of Mother Nature's
air. Just have to refuel. I
> think you would be in for at
least 2-4 bottles of the $40 size for a
> weekend of racing. That is
$80-$160 per weekend. Do that 6-10 times a
> year and you are at
$1,000. Do it the next year and you are starting to
> lose money on
the mod.
> This is a quote from Nitrous FAQ (
http://drp.4t.com/nos_faq.html),
>
"How long will the bottle last? This largely depends on the type
of
> nitrous kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power Shot
kit with
> a standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer up to 7 to
10 full
> 1/4 passes. If nitrous is only used in 2nd and 3rd gears,
the number of
> runs will be more."
> So you can
expect to have about 5-8 good runs on a road course
> described above then
you need another 10 pound bottle. Dang that is
> expensive. I
never see it referenced anywhere about nitrous and a road
> course car or
hill climb. It is ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath as
> the 1/4
mile or street racing (aka kids doing traffic light races).
> Find me some
references of road course cars with nitrous and I might be
> willing to
change my view.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Cody Graham [mailto:overclck@ies.net]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 09:53
>
> Sorry
Darren... that just doesn't happen with Nitrous Oxide. 1 in
a
> million bottles explode (and when they do, it's at least partially
the
> operators fault). A nitrous bottle is the same type of bottle
you strap
> directly to your back when you go SCUBA diving. They
have the same safe
> pressure limit, etc. Thing is, Nitrous is not
combustible, Oxygen is.
> So, in effect, you are strapping a bomb to your
back if you go SCUBA
> diving.
>
> Nitrous is forced
induction, except instead of mechanical forced, its
> chemical
forced. I never quite see why so many people think its soooo
> bad,
or its cheating, or anything like that...
>
> I say go for
it. It is much less expensive than a costly turbo upgrade,
> and its
pretty easy to tune in. 200 Hp gain may be a tad much, but I
> could
almost guarantee 100 - 150 on a stock 3/S turbo motor is perfectly
>
ok. Remember though, if you are going for high HP shot like you
are,
> you will need a higher flow fuel pump, or a secondary fuel pump
for
> nitrous alone. Soon, I will have some numbers on how much a
150 shot
> helped my N/A 3 Liter.
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:09:14
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Just for kicks, at NOS bottle at
80d (nominal temp) has an internal
pressure of 60 atmospheres per square
inch. 882psi folks.
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Geoff Mohler
wrote:
> Its not dangerous??
>
> I would
disagree.
>
> If I roll my car at the track, I dont wish to have
the equivelant of
> 100lbs of TNT in my car asking for a good bang on
something.
>
> No..it wont explode/burn, but the shrapnel from the
bottle and everything
> around it will go thru a house. Anyone
recall the maxima that had a nos
> bottle blow up in the garage? Car
looked like a cartoon paper bag
> explosion in the rear half.
>
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Cody Graham wrote:
>
> > I never
said it was practical... I just said its not dangerous...
> >
>
> A 10 Lb. bottle is good for about 2 minutes worth of usage using a
100
> > shot. That's 120 seconds, or 24 times worth of usage at 5
seconds a
> > piece.
> >
> > BTW - how much
do BIG turbos cost???
> >
> > -Cody
> >
>
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> > Of Darren
Schilberg
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:29 AM
> > To:
'Team3S'
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>
>
> > Cody,
> >
> > I
don't doubt all that but then why don't more people use it? Well,
>
> because most of the time I bet it is illegal or against the
gentlemanly
> > rules. Now for a 1/4 mile that is fine. You
KNOW how long Merritt runs
> > his car, don't you? I only have
experience at Kansas where there were 3
> > good places to hit the
nitrous tank (the two 1/8 mile strips on the back
> > side and the long
front stretch -- if you were daring you could hit it
> > after Turn 2
and before the carousel but that is iffy or just a 50 hp
> >
shot). So this is three full shots and the front stretch might even
be
> > two shots.
> > But three full 150 hp
shots. I don't know how much nitrous that uses
> > up at once but
running a 20-minute session and laps are about 2:20 so
> > you get 9
full laps give or take a half lap or so. 9 full laps with 3
> >
full shots of nitrous per lap making 27 full shots of nitrous in a
> >
session. Well we had 7 sessions so that is about a maximum of 189
shots
> > of nitrous. This is if you are really anxious and want
to blow them
> > away cleanly. I agree that sometimes it is only
used in the "emergency"
> > situations and not on every straight ...
just trying to prove a point
> > here.
> >
How much does a $40 bottle contain and how many blasts does it last?
>
> Once a boost controller is set up ($450 for the mother of all
Apex'i),
> > Supra Fuel Pump ($100 you said, Rich), and 550 injectors
($450 group buy
> > plus maybe an install) that is $1,000. Boost
as long as you want and
> > you will never run out of Mother Nature's
air. Just have to refuel. I
> > think you would be in for
at least 2-4 bottles of the $40 size for a
> > weekend of racing.
That is $80-$160 per weekend. Do that 6-10 times a
> > year and
you are at $1,000. Do it the next year and you are starting to
>
> lose money on the mod.
> > This is a quote from
Nitrous FAQ (
http://drp.4t.com/nos_faq.html),
>
> "How long will the bottle last? This largely depends on the type
of
> > nitrous kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power
Shot kit with
> > a standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer
up to 7 to 10 full
> > 1/4 passes. If nitrous is only used in 2nd
and 3rd gears, the number of
> > runs will be more."
>
> So you can expect to have about 5-8 good runs on a road
course
> > described above then you need another 10 pound bottle.
Dang that is
> > expensive. I never see it referenced anywhere
about nitrous and a road
> > course car or hill climb. It is
ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath as
> > the 1/4 mile or street
racing (aka kids doing traffic light races).
> > Find me some
references of road course cars with nitrous and I might be
> > willing
to change my view.
> >
> > --Flash!
> > 1995
VR-4
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
Cody Graham [mailto:overclck@ies.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24,
2002 09:53
> >
> > Sorry Darren... that just
doesn't happen with Nitrous Oxide. 1 in a
> > million bottles
explode (and when they do, it's at least partially the
> > operators
fault). A nitrous bottle is the same type of bottle you strap
> >
directly to your back when you go SCUBA diving. They have the same
safe
> > pressure limit, etc. Thing is, Nitrous is not
combustible, Oxygen is.
> > So, in effect, you are strapping a bomb to
your back if you go SCUBA
> > diving.
> >
> >
Nitrous is forced induction, except instead of mechanical forced, its
>
> chemical forced. I never quite see why so many people think its
soooo
> > bad, or its cheating, or anything like that...
> >
> > I say go for it. It is much less expensive than a costly
turbo upgrade,
> > and its pretty easy to tune in. 200 Hp gain
may be a tad much, but I
> > could almost guarantee 100 - 150 on a
stock 3/S turbo motor is perfectly
> > ok. Remember though, if
you are going for high HP shot like you are,
> > you will need a higher
flow fuel pump, or a secondary fuel pump for
> > nitrous alone.
Soon, I will have some numbers on how much a 150 shot
> > helped my N/A
3 Liter.
>
> ---
> Geoff Mohler
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:14:52
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Team3s Content: Why NOX
safety is important.
http://www.healthyhome.net/nitrousexpress.htm
(found it)
- ---
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:26:57
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
>
>I wouldnt call it
childish, just 'champagne dreams on a beer budget'
>hopefull
thinking.>Merritt: It you -want- to run with the big
boys..upgrade
or get a better
>car. If you want to have fun..just go out and have
fun.
Now hold on there. I've given up the idea of using NOx as
unworkable, but
all you folks telling me it's "childish" or "bad form" are
starting to
worry me.
Why is it bad to get an extra 100 hp via a
simple NOx mod, but it's not bad
to be filthy rich and spend $100,000 on a
new 911 TT or put $25,000 into a
VR4 with bigger turbos, injectors, AFCs,and
all that stuff? What's the
rule here? That there is an honorable way to
spend money for power?
I get it. Cheap horsepower must be bad because
otherwise I'd be competitive
with people who spend zillions of dollars on
Vipers, TT Porsches, Cobra Rs,
Z06 Vettes, and -- what is it you're working
on, Geoff? Oh, two free LT1 C5
Vettes.
I'm missing the point here. One
reason I run a VR4 in the first place is
that it has fabulous handling, AWD,
and enough horsepower in stock form to
run with M3s, C5s and 911s at a
fraction of their price. All you really
gotta do to a VR4 is fix the brakes
with one of Brad's kits, and you can
run with that crowd. Those folks resent
us already, because we can beat
Doctor Whoosie in his new $80,000 911 with a
$12,000 to $18,000 car.
If I put in a NOx kit and started running with
Cobra Rs and Vipers, they
would resent me too, because I'd have the same
horsepower they do but
didn't spend as much for it. See, it's OK to go fast,
but only if you've
spent the correct amount of money to do so in the
proper, honorable way.
I bet if it cost $10,000 to install NOx instead of
a few hundred bucks,
folks would not resent it so much.
Rich/slow old poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:40:04
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
> Now hold on there. I've
given up the idea of using NOx as unworkable, but
> all you folks telling
me it's "childish" or "bad form" are starting to
> worry me.
>
> Why is it bad to get an extra 100 hp via a simple NOx mod, but it's not
bad
> to be filthy rich and spend $100,000 on a new 911 TT or put $25,000
into a
> VR4 with bigger turbos, injectors, AFCs,and all that stuff?
What's the
> rule here? That there is an honorable way to spend money for
power?
>
> I get it. Cheap horsepower must be bad because otherwise
I'd be competitive
> with people who spend zillions of dollars on Vipers,
TT Porsches, Cobra Rs,
> Z06 Vettes, and -- what is it you're working on,
Geoff? Oh, two free LT1 C5
> Vettes.
>
> I'm missing the
point here. One reason I run a VR4 in the first place is
> that it has
fabulous handling, AWD, and enough horsepower in stock form to
> run with
M3s, C5s and 911s at a fraction of their price. All you really
> gotta do
to a VR4 is fix the brakes with one of Brad's kits, and you can
> run with
that crowd. Those folks resent us already, because we can beat
> Doctor
Whoosie in his new $80,000 911 with a $12,000 to $18,000 car.
>
>
If I put in a NOx kit and started running with Cobra Rs and Vipers, they
>
would resent me too, because I'd have the same horsepower they do but
>
didn't spend as much for it. See, it's OK to go fast, but only if you've
>
spent the correct amount of money to do so in the proper, honorable
way.
- ---
Im working a deal with cars as a business, not a hobby.
No comparison.
NOS is dangerous in a situation like road racing, I never
called you in
bad form or childish.
Its difficult to explain, but some
ppl call NOX 'cheating' at the drags,
however, NOX is a fully acceptible way
of making quick power in drag
racing..and 2nd place is 1st place loser..NOX
is not cheating there at
all.
NOX is not anywhere near common and is
totally unreasonable to use for
road racing. Of course you'll do
nothing but lose respect with your peers
at the course with it..you are no
longer following the dicipline of the
sport.
Its the same los of
respect jet cars get for land record speeds..because
the CAR class only
defines a car as having four wheels, the piston driven
crowd is unfairly
challenged in the CAR class.
Surely if you did run it..and you passed
people, they wouldnt hold you..or
your car in the regard you would have been
if you did it in the form the
car was developed.
> I bet if
it cost $10,000 to install NOx instead of a few hundred bucks,
> folks
would not resent it so much.
>
> Rich/slow old poop
-
---
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:48:20
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
> I bet if it cost $10,000
to install NOx instead of a few
> hundred bucks, folks would not resent
it so much.
Just tell the whiners that you put $30,000 in a
50-gallon drum and burned it
to make up for not buying a Z-06 or a Cobra
R. Maybe they'll leave you
alone then.
Nitrous is probably not
the best way to get long-term power, but it is cheap
to get a few quick shots
of horsepower when you really need it. The vast
majority of drag racers
use it (the REALLY fast guys, not the casual
dragracers).
If the clubs
you race with allow nitrous, then use it if you think it'll
work for what you
want. If they don't allow it, then the decision is
already made for
you.
Pulling some weight out of the car would probably be a good idea if
it could
become a track-only car. It'd probably help much more overall
than using
nitrous for quick boosts of power.
Do you really need to
beat the Cobra R guys and the Z-06 guys at the expense
of maybe losing some
respect (no matter how silly that seems)? If it is a
crusade to beat
them, then turbos and fuel system upgrades are next on the
list. That's
the way to get the big horsepower numbers. It won't be free -
but hey,
these cars aren't cheap to maintain!
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:55:20
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
>---
>Im working a deal
with cars as a business, not a hobby. No comparison.
Point taken.
Sorry I brought it up.
>
>NOS is dangerous in a situation like road
racing, I never called you in
>bad form or childish.
No, but others
did. I grouped you in with the others in a class
action
response.
>
>Its difficult to explain, but some ppl call
NOX 'cheating' at the drags,
>however, NOX is a fully acceptible way of
making quick power in drag
>racing..and 2nd place is 1st place loser..NOX
is not cheating there at
>all. NOX is not anywhere near common and is
totally unreasonable to use for
>road racing.
I fail to see the
difference.
Of course you'll do nothing but lose respect with your
peers
>at the course with it..you are no longer following the dicipline of
the
>sport.
Aha! "The discipline of the sport." That means it's OK
to spend $125,000 on
a TT Porsche that you don't know how to drive, but it's
not OK to spend a
few hundred bucks on NOx.
This reminds me of the old
joke: What are the three most dangerous things
in the world? A Jewish
commando with an Uzi, a mugger with a straight
razor, and a doctor in a new
M3.
>
>Surely if you did run it..and you passed people, they
wouldnt hold you..or
>your car in the regard you would have been if you
did it in the form the
>car was developed.
But they would if I had
spent $25,000 on "proper and honorable" mods like
rich people do.
You
may be right, because I got passed by a Supra at Road America with
enough
mods to pull 550 hp, and I attributed his passing me to all the
horsepower,
not his driving skill. Still, I wish I had 550 hp.
Maybe I'll put NOx in
after all, just to piss rich people off.
Rich/slow old poop/Hissss....
(the sound of NOx)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:53:44
-0500
From: "Aamer" <
aamer@thepentagon.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: valve timing
They've been developing electronic valves
for quite a while now. I've heard
of a few working models, but there are
still many issues. I would imagine
that one of the biggest issues would be
the fact that lifting a valve isn't
like opening an injector. In comparison
to something like an injector, it
would take a pretty powerful solenoid to
lift a valve. Now if you wanted to
use an electric motor of some sort, you
would have other issues as well,
such as lubrication. You would need a
reliable seal to allow oil to reach
the moving parts along the valve, but
keep it out of the motor. And, of
course, there is always the issue of
reliability: if the electric system
fails, then you're looking at an engine
rebuild and I would imagine it's
much more likely to fail than a purely
mechanical system. I don't know if
these are the actual problems that they
are facing; these are just some
things that I can think of off the top of my
head, so I might be wrong.
In my opinion, the bottom line is that until a
highly reliable design can be
produced, it's just more trouble than it's
worth. But hey, I'm sure it will
happen soon. I mean, if they can produce an
engine with variable
compression, then why not this?
Aamer
Abbas
'94 3000GT (DOHC -- Naturally Aspirated)
email:
aamer@thepentagon.comfax: (707)
982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
States]
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <
apedenko@attbi.com>
To: <
team3s@team3s.com>
Sent: Thursday,
January 24, 2002 1:43 AM
Subject: Team3S: OT: valve timing
> Okay,
I'm stumped. I was flipping through some info
> online and found a listing
of how all the current
> variable valve timing systems work. What I
don't
> understand is that in some way, shape or form they all
> use
camshafts. Why doesn't someone make an
> electronically actuated valve?
I'm hoping I'm not some
> genius that's the first to come up w/ this idea
(cuz if
> I am, then I should'a pattented it first ;) ) so
> there's
got to be a reason not to do it that way. I
> mean from a theoretical
standpoint, I don't see the
> difficulty in producing a valve opened by an
electric
> motor, or better yet simply pushed by an electric
>
field. The only thing I can think of is reliability,
> but if anything,
this could be done with less moving
> parts, so it could potentially be
more reliable than a
> standard camshaft. Plus this would eliminate the
timing
> belt all together...
>
> Sorry admins, I know this is
out there... just tryin'
> to think outside the
box...
>
> Alex
>
> '95 VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:01:28
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
>
>Do you really need
to beat the Cobra R guys and the Z-06 guys at the expense
>of maybe losing
some respect (no matter how silly that seems)?
Yes, I do. I need
to beat them.
Especially one local Z06 and one local 911 TT
AWD.
Rich/slow old poop/hissss
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:02:25
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: OT: valve timing
> In comparison to something like an
injector, it
> would take a pretty powerful solenoid to lift a
>
valve.
Actually it isn't the opening of the valve that's the hard part -
it's the
closing of the valve gently enough that it doesn't smack hard into
the valve
seat. That's where the longevity problems are coming
from.
> And, of course, there is always the issue of
>
reliability: if the electric system fails, then
> you're looking at an
engine rebuild...
You'd want to make it so that if for some reason it did
fail it would cut
current to your solenoids/actuators (or whatever you are
using) and the
affected valve(s) would close and not be
damaged.
> In my opinion, the bottom line is that until
a
> highly reliable design can be produced, it's
> just more trouble
than it's worth. But hey, I'm
> sure it will happen soon. I mean, if they
can
> produce an engine with variable compression,
> then why not
this?
I'm sure we'll see it on "some" application in the next 5-10 years,
maybe
sooner if some of the reliability/longevity problems are solved.
There are
a lot of benefits to be had by having electronically actuated
valves.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:06:27
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Re: running with the big boys
> Of course
you'll do nothing but lose respect with your peers
> >at the course
with it..you are no longer following the dicipline of the
>
>sport.
>
> Aha! "The discipline of the sport." That means it's
OK to spend $125,000 on
> a TT Porsche that you don't know how to drive,
but it's not OK to spend a
> few hundred bucks on NOx.
-
---
Man..thats his choice. Theres others that spend a grand total of
$6k on a
race car as well in the Pro7 racing series.
> This
reminds me of the old joke: What are the three most dangerous things
> in
the world? A Jewish commando with an Uzi, a mugger with a straight
>
razor, and a doctor in a new M3.
- ---
Oldie but a goodie.
>
But they would if I had spent $25,000 on "proper and honorable" mods
like
> rich people do.
- ---
Who said you had to spend that
much? The amount of $$ you have to spend
to beat (example) a CobraR is
different depending on what you are willing
to do..and what has to be done
within those limits. You willing to strip
out 900lbs? No??
Well, then it'll cost you more $. Dont blame the
platform for the
cost..you chose it.
> You may be right, because I got passed by
a Supra at Road America with
> enough mods to pull 550 hp, and I
attributed his passing me to all the
> horsepower, not his driving skill.
Still, I wish I had 550 hp.
- ---
Yer not that far
away..fuel/turbos..thats about it...but 550hp at your
weight penalty wont
pull like a supra. Hence the platform argument.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:09:48
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
Ok..heres a very valuable chunk
of advice.
Buy a 3rd gen RX7-TT.
You'll pass em with only intake
& exhaust.
I do.
Thats $20k for the car AND mods (search for
hail damage in the southern US
in the late fall)
You might need a
stronger clutch..and beware of the shifts from 2nd to 5th
at WOT :^)
its easy to miss 3rd when pulling a full G and you gotta
shift.
On
Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Merritt wrote:
> >
> >Do you really need
to beat the Cobra R guys and the Z-06 guys at the expense
> >of maybe
losing some respect (no matter how silly that seems)?
>
>
Yes, I do. I need to beat them.
> Especially one local Z06 and one local
911 TT AWD.
>
> Rich/slow old poop/hissss
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:11:52
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: running with the big boys
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>
> You may be right, because I got passed by a Supra at Road America
with
> enough mods to pull 550 hp, and I attributed his passing me to all
the
> horsepower, not his driving skill. Still, I wish I had 550
hp.
I've had the same problem with some 'superior' cars --- Hrummph, must
be
superior HP, it couldn't possibly be my abilities. In reality, if I would
take
10% of what I'll be spending on mods and spend it on a drivers school
I'd
probably be just as fast.
Maybe I should set up a driving
education fund --- a tithing, if you will, to
the racing
Gods.
Jim
Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:19:46
-0500
From: Ed Leung <
eleung@summitracing.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
The stigma of nitrous, at least
in my crowd, has to do with the fact that
it has to be turned on & off.
If you could turn a blower or a turbo off, it
would be a mute point. It's
frowned upon for the same reasons that people
frown upon anything that
resembles instant gratification. It's not the
money so much as what it seems
to say about the vehicle's owner. Namely,
that you aren't willing to live
with the compromises that are inherent in a
truly fast street car, and
hence, the perception that you aren't serious
about the hobby or your
car.
Ed Leung
Summit Racing Equipment
(330) 630-0270 ext.
308
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:24:35
-0700
From: Michael Crisfield <
mcrisfield@ftmcdowell.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
All -
Speaking of rolling a car
I hesitate to install NOS in the trunk of
my daily driver because I'm worried
that if I get into a serious accident it
might explode. I have a 9 year
old stepdaughter that occasionally squeezes
into the back seat that, judging
from pics I saw of that maxima, wouldn't be
alive if that bottle exploded in
my hatch. Even if I put a ban on backseat
passengers in my car I would
still have a hard time letting anyone ride in
my car with a NOS bottle given
the possible dangers. The way Cody explained
NOS it isn't any more
dangerous than Scuba diving but I haven't heard a wide
variety of opinions
about the safety of NOS, only the value or honor in it.
If I buy a NOS
kit from a tuner, have them professionally install
it, get all the bells and
whistles for NOS safety, what has to happen or
what do I have to do wrong to
make that thing explode? The guy with the
maxima left his bottle heater
on. Well in Arizona with temps getting no
colder than 38 degrees year
round do I even need a bottle heater? Could I
hit the bottle with a
sledgehammer and turn myself into confetti? What kind
of impact does it
really take? Does anyone have hard numbers?
I also haven't heard
much about the legality. I asked a police
sergeant here in Arizona and
he told me that it was perfectly legal in
Arizona to have it installed in my
car but he said that I might have
problems getting through emissions with all
that extra piping if they
inspect it. I would really appreciate any
advice since I have an 3000GT SL
that I would like to mod without NOS but it
would take me $3-4K in upgrades
to MAYBE get the 75HP to the wheels that I
can get from a NOS kit installed
locally for $800. Granted I don't have
that HP all the time but 220HP is
pretty good for daily driving its just the
occasional kid in a suped up
honda or probe that I would like to thoroughly
trounce.
To summarize, I couldn't care less about my racing "honor" or my
"12
seconds of fame" as one person called it, I just want to make my car
go
faster occasionally and not blow anybody up. Do you think that's
doable
with NOS?
Thanks,
Michael Crisfield
91 3000GT SL
AUTO
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 10:09
AM
To: Cody Graham
Cc:
dschilberg@pobox.com;
'Team3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Just for
kicks, at NOS bottle at 80d (nominal temp) has an internal
pressure of 60
atmospheres per square inch. 882psi folks.
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002,
Geoff Mohler wrote:
> Its not dangerous??
>
> I would
disagree.
>
> If I roll my car at the track, I dont wish to have
the equivelant of
> 100lbs of TNT in my car asking for a good bang on
something.
>
> No..it wont explode/burn, but the shrapnel from the
bottle and everything
> around it will go thru a house. Anyone
recall the maxima that had a nos
> bottle blow up in the garage? Car
looked like a cartoon paper bag
> explosion in the rear half.
>
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Cody Graham wrote:
>
> > I never
said it was practical... I just said its not dangerous...
> >
>
> A 10 Lb. bottle is good for about 2 minutes worth of usage using a
100
> > shot. That's 120 seconds, or 24 times worth of usage at 5
seconds a
> > piece.
> >
> > BTW - how much
do BIG turbos cost???
> >
> > -Cody
> >
>
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> > Of Darren
Schilberg
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:29 AM
> > To:
'Team3S'
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>
>
> > Cody,
> >
> > I
don't doubt all that but then why don't more people use it? Well,
>
> because most of the time I bet it is illegal or against the
gentlemanly
> > rules. Now for a 1/4 mile that is fine. You
KNOW how long Merritt runs
> > his car, don't you? I only have
experience at Kansas where there were 3
> > good places to hit the
nitrous tank (the two 1/8 mile strips on the back
> > side and the long
front stretch -- if you were daring you could hit it
> > after Turn 2
and before the carousel but that is iffy or just a 50 hp
> >
shot). So this is three full shots and the front stretch might even
be
> > two shots.
> > But three full 150 hp
shots. I don't know how much nitrous that uses
> > up at once but
running a 20-minute session and laps are about 2:20 so
> > you get 9
full laps give or take a half lap or so. 9 full laps with 3
> >
full shots of nitrous per lap making 27 full shots of nitrous in a
> >
session. Well we had 7 sessions so that is about a maximum of 189
shots
> > of nitrous. This is if you are really anxious and want
to blow them
> > away cleanly. I agree that sometimes it is only
used in the "emergency"
> > situations and not on every straight ...
just trying to prove a point
> > here.
> >
How much does a $40 bottle contain and how many blasts does it last?
>
> Once a boost controller is set up ($450 for the mother of all
Apex'i),
> > Supra Fuel Pump ($100 you said, Rich), and 550 injectors
($450 group buy
> > plus maybe an install) that is $1,000. Boost
as long as you want and
> > you will never run out of Mother Nature's
air. Just have to refuel. I
> > think you would be in for
at least 2-4 bottles of the $40 size for a
> > weekend of racing.
That is $80-$160 per weekend. Do that 6-10 times a
> > year and
you are at $1,000. Do it the next year and you are starting to
>
> lose money on the mod.
> > This is a quote from
Nitrous FAQ (
http://drp.4t.com/nos_faq.html),
>
> "How long will the bottle last? This largely depends on the type
of
> > nitrous kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP Power
Shot kit with
> > a standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will usually offer
up to 7 to 10 full
> > 1/4 passes. If nitrous is only used in 2nd
and 3rd gears, the number of
> > runs will be more."
>
> So you can expect to have about 5-8 good runs on a road
course
> > described above then you need another 10 pound bottle.
Dang that is
> > expensive. I never see it referenced anywhere
about nitrous and a road
> > course car or hill climb. It is
ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath as
> > the 1/4 mile or street
racing (aka kids doing traffic light races).
> > Find me some
references of road course cars with nitrous and I might be
> > willing
to change my view.
> >
> > --Flash!
> > 1995
VR-4
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
Cody Graham [mailto:overclck@ies.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 24,
2002 09:53
> >
> > Sorry Darren... that just
doesn't happen with Nitrous Oxide. 1 in a
> > million bottles
explode (and when they do, it's at least partially the
> > operators
fault). A nitrous bottle is the same type of bottle you strap
> >
directly to your back when you go SCUBA diving. They have the same
safe
> > pressure limit, etc. Thing is, Nitrous is not
combustible, Oxygen is.
> > So, in effect, you are strapping a bomb to
your back if you go SCUBA
> > diving.
> >
> >
Nitrous is forced induction, except instead of mechanical forced, its
>
> chemical forced. I never quite see why so many people think its
soooo
> > bad, or its cheating, or anything like that...
> >
> > I say go for it. It is much less expensive than a costly
turbo upgrade,
> > and its pretty easy to tune in. 200 Hp gain
may be a tad much, but I
> > could almost guarantee 100 - 150 on a
stock 3/S turbo motor is perfectly
> > ok. Remember though, if
you are going for high HP shot like you are,
> > you will need a higher
flow fuel pump, or a secondary fuel pump for
> > nitrous alone.
Soon, I will have some numbers on how much a 150 shot
> > helped my N/A
3 Liter.
>
> ---
> Geoff Mohler
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:31:12
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
Its unusually simple to remove a
nos bottle from your car.
The mounts are specifically made for quick in
& out movement of the
bottle.
Use it..then remove it.
On
Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Michael Crisfield wrote:
> All -
> Speaking
of rolling a car I hesitate to install NOS in the trunk of
> my daily
driver because I'm worried that if I get into a serious accident it
>
might explode. I have a 9 year old stepdaughter that occasionally
squeezes
> into the back seat that, judging from pics I saw of that
maxima, wouldn't be
> alive if that bottle exploded in my hatch.
Even if I put a ban on backseat
> passengers in my car I would still have
a hard time letting anyone ride in
> my car with a NOS bottle given the
possible dangers. The way Cody explained
> NOS it isn't any more
dangerous than Scuba diving but I haven't heard a wide
> variety of
opinions about the safety of NOS, only the value or honor in it.
>
> If I buy a NOS kit from a tuner, have them professionally
install
> it, get all the bells and whistles for NOS safety, what has to
happen or
> what do I have to do wrong to make that thing explode?
The guy with the
> maxima left his bottle heater on. Well in Arizona
with temps getting no
> colder than 38 degrees year round do I even need a
bottle heater? Could I
> hit the bottle with a sledgehammer and turn
myself into confetti? What kind
> of impact does it really
take? Does anyone have hard numbers?
>
> I also haven't heard
much about the legality. I asked a police
> sergeant here in Arizona
and he told me that it was perfectly legal in
> Arizona to have it
installed in my car but he said that I might have
> problems getting
through emissions with all that extra piping if they
> inspect it. I
would really appreciate any advice since I have an 3000GT SL
> that I
would like to mod without NOS but it would take me $3-4K in upgrades
> to
MAYBE get the 75HP to the wheels that I can get from a NOS kit installed
>
locally for $800. Granted I don't have that HP all the time but 220HP
is
> pretty good for daily driving its just the occasional kid in a suped
up
> honda or probe that I would like to thoroughly trounce.
>
> To summarize, I couldn't care less about my racing "honor" or my
"12
> seconds of fame" as one person called it, I just want to make my car
go
> faster occasionally and not blow anybody up. Do you think
that's doable
> with NOS?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
Michael Crisfield
> 91 3000GT SL AUTO
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002
10:09 AM
> To: Cody Graham
> Cc:
dschilberg@pobox.com; 'Team3S'
>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question about NOx
>
>
> Just
for kicks, at NOS bottle at 80d (nominal temp) has an internal
> pressure
of 60 atmospheres per square inch. 882psi folks.
>
> On Thu,
24 Jan 2002, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> > Its not
dangerous??
> >
> > I would disagree.
> >
>
> If I roll my car at the track, I dont wish to have the equivelant
of
> > 100lbs of TNT in my car asking for a good bang on
something.
> >
> > No..it wont explode/burn, but the shrapnel
from the bottle and everything
> > around it will go thru a
house. Anyone recall the maxima that had a nos
> > bottle blow up
in the garage? Car looked like a cartoon paper bag
> > explosion
in the rear half.
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Cody Graham
wrote:
> >
> > > I never said it was practical... I just
said its not dangerous...
> > >
> > > A 10 Lb. bottle
is good for about 2 minutes worth of usage using a 100
> > >
shot. That's 120 seconds, or 24 times worth of usage at 5 seconds
a
> > > piece.
> > >
> > > BTW - how
much do BIG turbos cost???
> > >
> > > -Cody
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> > > Of Darren
Schilberg
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:29 AM
>
> > To: 'Team3S'
> > > Subject: RE: Team3S: Stupid question
about NOx
> > >
> > > Cody,
> > >
>
> > I don't doubt all that but then why don't more
people use it? Well,
> > > because most of the time I bet it
is illegal or against the gentlemanly
> > > rules. Now for a
1/4 mile that is fine. You KNOW how long Merritt runs
> > >
his car, don't you? I only have experience at Kansas where there were
3
> > > good places to hit the nitrous tank (the two 1/8 mile strips
on the back
> > > side and the long front stretch -- if you were
daring you could hit it
> > > after Turn 2 and before the carousel
but that is iffy or just a 50 hp
> > > shot). So this is three
full shots and the front stretch might even be
> > > two
shots.
> > > But three full 150 hp shots. I
don't know how much nitrous that uses
> > > up at once but running a
20-minute session and laps are about 2:20 so
> > > you get 9 full
laps give or take a half lap or so. 9 full laps with 3
> > >
full shots of nitrous per lap making 27 full shots of nitrous in a
> >
> session. Well we had 7 sessions so that is about a maximum of 189
shots
> > > of nitrous. This is if you are really anxious and
want to blow them
> > > away cleanly. I agree that sometimes
it is only used in the "emergency"
> > > situations and not on every
straight ... just trying to prove a point
> > > here.
> >
> How much does a $40 bottle contain and how many blasts
does it last?
> > > Once a boost controller is set up ($450 for the
mother of all Apex'i),
> > > Supra Fuel Pump ($100 you said, Rich),
and 550 injectors ($450 group buy
> > > plus maybe an install) that
is $1,000. Boost as long as you want and
> > > you will never
run out of Mother Nature's air. Just have to refuel. I
> >
> think you would be in for at least 2-4 bottles of the $40 size for
a
> > > weekend of racing. That is $80-$160 per weekend.
Do that 6-10 times a
> > > year and you are at $1,000. Do it
the next year and you are starting to
> > > lose money on the
mod.
> > > This is a quote from Nitrous FAQ (
http://drp.4t.com/nos_faq.html),
>
> > "How long will the bottle last? This largely depends on the type
of
> > > nitrous kit and jetting used. For example, a 125 HP
Power Shot kit with
> > > a standard 10 lb. capacity bottle will
usually offer up to 7 to 10 full
> > > 1/4 passes. If nitrous
is only used in 2nd and 3rd gears, the number of
> > > runs will be
more."
> > > So you can expect to have about 5-8
good runs on a road course
> > > described above then you need
another 10 pound bottle. Dang that is
> > > expensive. I
never see it referenced anywhere about nitrous and a road
> > >
course car or hill climb. It is ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath
as
> > > the 1/4 mile or street racing (aka kids doing traffic light
races).
> > > Find me some references of road course cars with
nitrous and I might be
> > > willing to change my view.
> >
>
> > > --Flash!
> > > 1995 VR-4
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Cody
Graham [mailto:overclck@ies.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24,
2002 09:53
> > >
> > > Sorry Darren... that
just doesn't happen with Nitrous Oxide. 1 in a
> > > million
bottles explode (and when they do, it's at least partially the
> > >
operators fault). A nitrous bottle is the same type of bottle you
strap
> > > directly to your back when you go SCUBA diving.
They have the same safe
> > > pressure limit, etc. Thing is,
Nitrous is not combustible, Oxygen is.
> > > So, in effect, you are
strapping a bomb to your back if you go SCUBA
> > > diving.
> > >
> > > Nitrous is forced induction, except
instead of mechanical forced, its
> > > chemical forced. I
never quite see why so many people think its soooo
> > > bad, or its
cheating, or anything like that...
> > >
> > > I say go
for it. It is much less expensive than a costly turbo upgrade,
>
> > and its pretty easy to tune in. 200 Hp gain may be a tad much,
but I
> > > could almost guarantee 100 - 150 on a stock 3/S turbo
motor is perfectly
> > > ok. Remember though, if you are going
for high HP shot like you are,
> > > you will need a higher flow
fuel pump, or a secondary fuel pump for
> > > nitrous alone.
Soon, I will have some numbers on how much a 150 shot
> > > helped
my N/A 3 Liter.
- ---
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:36:25
-0800
From: "ek2mfg" <
ek2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
I think I could rattle off
about every sport with exception of NASCAR
and INDY/CART that this system is
used....If you are going to bag on
the Nitrous system then what about
alchohol/water injection? Mods are
Mods are Mods....so if I were to put N0x
on my car and it WAS in the
limits of the rules...then I would be considered
"unrespected trailer
trash"? You guru's and your holier than thou
attitude...like the JEDI
counsil only older :) ....really need to think about
the judgements
you make....people (me) read this stuff you type and actually
pay
attention but sometimes you guy's really come off as pompus
yuppies
with sweaters around your shoulders.
remember when turbines
wiped out the pistons in hydroplane
racing...those piston boys used N0x.
-
-or when they used it to get over 300mph and in the
3.99999999's
ppphssssssssssst ppphssssssssssssst...I'm
coming
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:36:23
-0500
From: "Aamer" <
aamer@thepentagon.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: valve timing
> Actually it isn't the opening of the
valve that's the hard part - it's the
> closing of the valve gently enough
that it doesn't smack hard into the
valve
> seat. That's where
the longevity problems are coming from.
Hmm, that's true. I never thought
about that, but that makes sense.
> You'd want to make it so that if
for some reason it did fail it would cut
> current to your
solenoids/actuators (or whatever you are using) and the
> affected
valve(s) would close and not be damaged.
That's certainly a good point;
but nonetheless, the underlying issue of
reliability is still there. Maybe
your engine won't get damaged, but you
will still be on the side of the road.
As I said, I don't know what issues
they are actually dealing with, but at
this point I don't see how any
electronic valve system could be as reliable
as a timing belt/chain and a
camshaft.
> I'm sure we'll see it
on "some" application in the next 5-10 years, maybe
> sooner if some of
the reliability/longevity problems are solved. There
are
> a lot
of benefits to be had by having electronically actuated valves.
>
I
concur.
Aamer Abbas
'94 3000GT (DOHC -- Naturally Aspirated)
email:
aamer@thepentagon.comfax: (707)
982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
States]
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:41:31
-0700
From: Desert Fox <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OT: valve timing
My bike has gear driven cams. I have heard that
Formula 1 cars use gear
driven cams too.
What are the downsides to
gear driven cams? Weight?
- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98
VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent
on
1/24/02 11:36, Aamer at
aamer@thepentagon.com
scribbled:
>> Actually it isn't the opening of the valve that's the
hard part - it's the
>> closing of the valve gently enough that it
doesn't smack hard into the
> valve
>> seat. That's where
the longevity problems are coming from.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 12:44:13
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
1) We're not making
judgements about you, we're telling you what other
people will think, based
on the reactions we've seen to other drivers on the
track.
2) You
don't understand one basic fundamental about driving on a road
course - it's
not about a huge burst of speed on the entrance to a straight
to make up for
bad driving: it's all about carrying momentum through the
corners
throughout the entire track. It's tougher for a guy with a
high
horsepower car to learn how to drive on the track than an
underpowered
littel pooter scooter, and that includes VR4's.
Chuck
Willis
(deposed from the Jedi Council)
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: ek2mfg [SMTP:ek2mfg@foxinternet.com]
> Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 12:36 PM
> To:
eleung@summitracing.com;
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com;
>
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Cc:
3sracers@speedtoys.com;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
>
> You guru's
and your holier than thou attitude...like the JEDI
> counsil only older :)
....really need to think about the judgements
> you make....people (me)
read this stuff you type and actually pay
> attention but sometimes you
guy's really come off as pompus yuppies
> with sweaters around your
shoulders.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:47:22
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
> Chuck Willis
>
(deposed from the Jedi Council)
If the Council is the team3s admin
list..
I enjoy the view, but dont like the smell.
I fear a huge
crackdown on chat coming soon..
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:16:33
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
Now I've heard everything.
The real issue is the amount of money spent, not whether you can turn it
on
and off. With that reasoning, I can't use my water injection to the
brakes
any more cuz I turn that on and off with a lever. Omigawd! I
turn my
suspension to Sport, too! And the sport exhaust! No
wonder the M3 and 911
crowd hates our cars...it's not that we can beat them
for less money, it's
that we can turn our functions on and off.
Ed,
you're kidding right? Tell me you're kidding.
Rich
At 01:19 PM
1/24/02 -0500, Ed Leung wrote:
>
>The stigma of nitrous, at least in
my crowd, has to do with the fact that
>it has to be turned on & off.
If you could turn a blower or a turbo off, it
>would be a mute point.
It's frowned upon for the same reasons that people
>frown upon anything
that resembles instant gratification. It's not the
>money so much as what
it seems to say about the vehicle's owner. Namely,
>that you aren't
willing to live with the compromises that are inherent in a
>truly fast
street car, and hence, the perception that you aren't serious
>about the
hobby or your car.
>
>Ed Leung
>Summit Racing
Equipment
>(330) 630-0270 ext. 308
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:17:37
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
One last point before we get shot
from the sky ... Jim mentioned taking
10% of his mod money for driving
school. I have been to exactly 3 DEs
ever (Mid-Ohio and Watkins Glen
with the Allegheny Region Porsche Club
from Pittsburgh, PA) and Heartland
Park with the Great Plains PCA. All
of them were driving events
(although at Heartland Park I was moved into
the Intermediate group which did
not require instructors although you
could request one).
I said it
before and I will say it again ... I am not comfortable on the
track with
other yahoos at these open driving events (NASA, HDPE stuff,
PDA and
TrackMasters here in the East, SpeedTrial USA, etc.). Partly
because
some of the yahoos don't know how to drive and have fast cars.
The other half
is that I don't feel comfy being a speed bump and would
not be looking at the
road but would be looking in the mirrors the whole
time. This is more
for the 3S-Racers list than Team3S but it has been
co-living over there as
well. A dear friend of mine (my summer boss)
does these open track
events with the above groups and I am just glad I
don't have to drive with
those guys ... they are a little scary. Nobody
wrecks or gets hurt but
it is like the German Autobahn. Sure the speed
limit people maintain is
100-140 mph and wrecks seldom happen ... but
when they do ... they consume
150 cars and a deadly. But that is why
they have different groups since
people have different needs.
I've spent about $750 on these driving
schools (two days each time). I
missed hitting VIR because of bad
timing. I would have liked that one.
I've spent about $4,650 on my car
mods so that is roughly 20% spent on
driving school and 80% spent on
mods. I only got to that mod list
because I did not feel safe taking a
stock VR-4 to the track. Before I
even GOT to a track I had Big Reds,
Rollbar, race seat, race harness,
race pads, race brake fluid, SS brake
lines, track wheels (thanks,
Merritt), and track tires. And what have I
done since then? Nada.
Just replace rotors, pads, and brake fluid when
I use it.
I got the car modded and now I need to keep hitting these
driving
schools. For those who have not done them I HIGHLY recommend
it.
Nothing like seat time to get the feel of how the car works ... not
just
driving it but from mods. I was fortunate enough to drive Jim
Floyd's
car in Kansas who has some nice suspension work. I took it
around the
paddock, plopped it down into first, took a hairpin turn at 10 mph
then
halfway through floored the gas. My car would have understeered
right
into the grass. Jim's just stuck and we made the turn. So
seat time
showed me how his handled differently than mine. Or how
instructor
Willis' car transmitted more of the bumps from the course than my
stock
suspension did.
I still don't feel safe. I want a full
rollcage because in a rollover
that I know I will have someday my noggin is
still not protected even
though these cars are solid. I just don't want
to be hoping the top of
my windshield doesn't cave in and crush my
helmet. I would rather spend
$450 on the other half of the
rollbar/rollcage. $450 is EASILY spent
when I'm thinking about the
safety of my life. I don't know how I would
act if I ever flipped a car
and seriously hurt my instructor. I don't
want that on my
shoulders. Hence all the safety-before-power mods. I'm
new to
this so I wanted to learn how to control the stock car first and
it STILL
out-drives me. To those rally and ex-road racers, you guys
have an
advantage. Just be safe with it.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg-
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent: Thursday, January 24,
2002 13:47
I fear a huge crackdown on chat coming
soon..
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:27:35
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Enough with the NOx already
This discussion has gone beyond the
technical aspect of how to do it, and
has gotten into the subjective area of
why the rich kids don't want us to
play their game. Enough already. Further
discussion probably belongs over
on the blue light list, where I am not
permitted to participate. It was fun
for a while.
Rich/Hisssssss.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:52:13
-0500
From: "Aamer" <
aamer@thepentagon.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: valve timing
The problem with gear driven cams is the
same as it is with timing
belt/chain driven cams -- and that problem
is
that you can only control valve timing to a certain extent. We
were
discussing electronic valves which could be lifted without using cams
at
all -- that way a computer could control valve timing.
Oh, and by
the way, I'm not 100% positive on this, but I'm pretty sure F1
cars use
pneumatic valves (i.e., they are lifted by air pressure).
Aamer
Abbas
'94 3000GT (DOHC -- Naturally Aspirated)
email:
aamer@thepentagon.comfax: (707)
982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
States]
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Desert Fox"
<
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
To:
"Team3S List (E-mail)" <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: valve
timing
> My bike has gear driven cams. I have heard that Formula 1
cars use gear
> driven cams too.
>
> What are the downsides to
gear driven cams? Weight?
>
> --
> Paul/.
> 95 black
3000GT VR-4
> 98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
> formerly reasonable
and prudent
Aamer
email:
aamer@thepentagon.com [or]
aabomb@thepentagon.comfax: (707)
982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
States]
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:48:42
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: running with the big boys
Edit:
I dont like the
smell of the conversation..sorry for the repost.
Drag it over to 3sracers
guys..weve left the idea of NOS itself I think.
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002,
Geoff Mohler wrote:
> > Chuck Willis
> > (deposed from the
Jedi Council)
>
> If the Council is the team3s admin list..
>
> I enjoy the view, but dont like the smell.
>
> I fear a
huge crackdown on chat coming soon..
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:19:43
-0500
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.comSubject:
Team3S: Extremely High Knock Sums - What's the Deal?
I got my Pocket
Logger software installed yesterday and decided to try it
out before I
installed my new spark
plugs. I took a run through 3rd gear at 14.5psi on 93
Octane gas. Knock sums reached 28! I've used a datalogger
before, and never
had this problem. So today, with new spark plugs, I tried it again, but this
time at 13psi. The
engine runs better, but I STILL got knock sums of 28! The
knock started at 4Krpms in 2nd and 3rd gears. My O2's
were reading .94 volts,
timing was around 22 degrees, and front EGT was reading a little over 1500F. I
bought my
gas at a local convenience store that I've have often used in the
past (and maybe was getting high knock before
too, and didn't know
it.)
So what's the deal? Should I just take it easy until I run out all
the gas, and then try some different gas? Is there
anything I could add to
this gas in the mean time to reduce knock? Might I have another problem, such as
a
slipped timing belt or cam gear?
I'm hoping to get it figured out in
the next couple days, cause I'm scheduled for a dyno session Sunday morning!
I
wish I lived closer to a Sunoco Station with 94 octane!
Thanks for
any help.
Jeff W.
'92 VR4
Belleville, MI
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:26:13
-0500
From: "Bill vp" <
billvp@highstream.net>
Subject:
Team3S: balancing wheels
I have heard that when we get our wheels
balanced (I have a '91 R/T tt) that
we have to make sure that the wheel
weights are put on the inside of the
wheel. Is this correct? Is
this unique to our cars, and if so why?
thanks,
Bill
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 1980 18:38:10
-0500
From: "bdtrent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Idea for cheaper way to run 720CC injectors?
Ken,
I just
got a pocket logger a few weeks ago so I'm finally able to put some
fears to
rest. With my AVC-R set to 1.25bar my boost gage indicates right
around
18psi. in 3rd. based on the data logs I've taken so far, I'm
getting
between 3 and 8 on the knock sum value starting around 6000 and
peaking
around 6500. Timing does not retard since these knock sum
values are not
high enough. 4th indicates slightly above 18psi with no
knock indicated,
but I havn't run flat out past 5500 without running out of
road or bravery.
My pre-turbine EGT's have always been between
800-870C. It's important to
note that all my knock data has been taken
in 40F ambient air. Hope
that
helps.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Ken Middaugh" <
kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
To: "bdtrent"
<
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Idea for cheaper way
to run 720CC injectors?
Hey Dave,
Just going back over some old
emails :). What gas do you run when at 18psi?
Did you ever get the
Datalogger and check knock?
I will have a similar setup, no datalogger,
and I wonder if 18 psi is safe.
I thought one would need water injection to
run boost that high.
Thanks,
Ken Middaugh
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "bdtrent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
To: "Team 3S"
<
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Monday, December 17, 2001 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Idea for cheaper way
to run 720CC injectors?
> From the school of keeping it simple, I've
had good luck for the last 3
yrs.
> and 4 open track events with the
following setup:
> 13g's
> AVC-R set to 18psi
> AFC
> RC
500's
> Denso 260lph pump
> EGT
> Boost gage
>
FIPK
> ATR down pipe (questionable benefit)
> Cat free stock
exhaust
> Stock bypass valve
>
> This system will hold boost
at ~16psi in 2nd, 17psi in 3rd, and 18psi in
> 4-5th
> If I were
doing it again, I would switch to RC 550's as the 500's are
> pushing at
high rpm. Otherwise, this is a bare bones system that works.
>
Tuning took about 5 minutes. I was running 18psi at my last open
track
> event but the water temp was normal and the EGT's were peaking
around 870C
> down the front straight. I havn't got a datalogger
yet, but that will
> hopefully change by the end of next
week.
>
> Regards,
> DaveT/92TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 1980 18:48:21
-0500
From: "bdtrent" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Looking for 550cc Injectors
Chuck,
I can't speak to your
set-up, but if your not running larger injectors with
a corrasponding MAF
correction i.e. an AFC or ARC2, than your pulling in far
more air than your
injector duty cycle can keep up with. As a last ditch
effort to avoid
leaning out, your ECU simply shuts down your entire fuel
system. Prior
to fuel cut you usually notice a stutter or intermittant
accelleration.
If you continue to ignore the intermittant miss than your
ECU resorts to
completely cutting fuel. I hadn't experienced these symptoms
since I
was trying to pull to much boost out of my stock injectors prior to
upgrading
my fuel system a number of year ago.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
To:
"'bdtrent'" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>; "Team 3S" <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Looking for 550cc
Injectors
At the track last weekend, also in the cold, I was having
intermittent fuel
cut out. I finally looked at my boost guage and I was
overboosting like to
18 psi when I meticulously adjusted the DSBC to
14.7. Something is wrong
with my BOV (Boschur DSM) or the DSBC
itself. This is strange. Any other
ideas?
Chuck
Willis
94 VR4
> I've been occationally running into fuel cut in
this nice cold winter air
> with my RC 500's.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:39:29
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Extremely High Knock Sums - What's the Deal?
Well you could go the
'rocket fuel' route and put in a couple of gallons
of Toluene or Xylene ---
search for thread on rocket fuel on
3SI.com.
Jim Berry
-
----- Original Message -----
From: <
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
To:
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 12:19 PM
Subject: Team3S: Extremely High Knock
Sums - What's the Deal?
> I got my Pocket Logger software
installed yesterday and decided to try it
> out before I installed my new
spark
> plugs. I took a run through 3rd gear at 14.5psi on 93 Octane gas.
Knock sums reached 28! I've used a datalogger
> before, and never had this
problem. So today, with new spark plugs, I tried it again, but this time at
13psi. The
> engine runs better, but I STILL got knock sums of 28! The
knock started at 4Krpms in 2nd and 3rd gears. My O2's
> were reading .94
volts, timing was around 22 degrees, and front EGT was reading a little over
1500F. I bought my
> gas at a local convenience store that I've have often
used in the past (and maybe was getting high knock before
> too, and
didn't know it.)
>
> So what's the deal? Should I just take it easy
until I run out all the gas, and then try some different gas? Is there
>
anything I could add to this gas in the mean time to reduce knock? Might I have
another problem, such as a
> slipped timing belt or cam gear?
>
> I'm hoping to get it figured out in the next couple days, cause I'm
scheduled for a dyno session Sunday morning! I
> wish I lived closer to a
Sunoco Station with 94 octane!
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Jeff W.
> '92 VR4
> Belleville, MI
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:55:12
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
OT: valve timing
I read an article in Road & Track a year or so ago
about a company designing
an electromagnetically actuated valve system. Lots
of interesting features
available as a result. The off position of the
solenoid was half open and when
in operation the electronics either closed or
opened the valve. In addition to
things like infinitely variable valve
timing you could start the car without a
starter --- knowing the
position of the crank you can locate a cylinder that is
just past top dead
center close its valves and inject fuel into that cylinder and
fire the spark
plug for that cylinder --- once the engine starts to rotate you can
start
actuating the rest of the electronics [ great stuff ].
The F1
valves are driven by cams but the springs are replaced by nitrogen gas
to
eliminate the weight of a
springs.
Jim
Berry
===================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Aamer <
aamer@thepentagon.com>
To: Team3S
<
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: valve
timing
> The problem with gear driven cams is the same as it is with
timing
> belt/chain driven cams -- and that problem
> is that you
can only control valve timing to a certain extent. We were
> discussing
electronic valves which could be lifted without using cams at
> all --
that way a computer could control valve timing.
>
> Oh, and by the
way, I'm not 100% positive on this, but I'm pretty sure F1
> cars use
pneumatic valves (i.e., they are lifted by air pressure).
>
>
> Aamer Abbas
> '94 3000GT (DOHC -- Naturally Aspirated)
>
email:
aamer@thepentagon.com>
fax: (707) 982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
> States]
>
>
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: "Desert Fox" <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
> To:
"Team3S List (E-mail)" <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: valve
timing
>
>
> > My bike has gear driven cams. I have heard
that Formula 1 cars use gear
> > driven cams too.
> >
>
> What are the downsides to gear driven cams? Weight?
> >
>
> --
> > Paul/.
> > 95 black 3000GT VR-4
> > 98
VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
> > formerly reasonable and
prudent
>
> Aamer
>
> email:
aamer@thepentagon.com [or]
aabomb@thepentagon.com> fax:
(707) 982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the United
>
States]
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:32:36
-0800
From: Damon Rachell <
damonr@mefas.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
OT: valve timing
Everyone is forgetting about the fact that moving the
cams against the
springs requires HP. And a lot of it.
Especially on high revving
engines where the springs must be very strong to
maintain timing. It's
an inherent loss that all engines must currently
deal with. The ideal
engine would run on fuel cells that operate the
valves, pumps, and
electrical systems while the pistons create power to the
wheels. Now
we've only have to make the fusion reactor compact enough
and magnetize
the race track and create a car with electromagnets on the
bottom which
both pull down and propel forward (maglev like). A couple
of windings
and the reactor, 4 wheels and a steering wheel.
Viola!
Jim Berry wrote:
> I read an article in Road & Track
a year or so ago about a company designing
> an electromagnetically
actuated valve system. Lots of interesting features
> available as a
result. The off position of the solenoid was half open and when
> in
operation the electronics either closed or opened the valve. In addition
to
> things like infinitely variable valve timing you could start
the car without a
> starter --- knowing the position of the crank you can
locate a cylinder that is
> just past top dead center close its valves and
inject fuel into that cylinder and
> fire the spark plug for that cylinder
--- once the engine starts to rotate you can
> start actuating the rest of
the electronics [ great stuff ].
>
> The F1 valves are driven
by cams but the springs are replaced by nitrogen gas
> to eliminate the
weight of a springs.
>
> Jim Berry
>
===================================================
> ----- Original
Message -----
> From: Aamer <
aamer@thepentagon.com>
> To:
Team3S <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: valve
timing
>
>>The problem with gear driven cams is the same as it
is with timing
>>belt/chain driven cams -- and that
problem
>>is that you can only control valve timing to a certain
extent. We were
>>discussing electronic valves which could be lifted
without using cams at
>>all -- that way a computer could control valve
timing.
>>
>>Oh, and by the way, I'm not 100% positive on
this, but I'm pretty sure F1
>>cars use pneumatic valves (i.e., they
are lifted by air pressure).
>>
>>Aamer Abbas
>>'94
3000GT (DOHC -- Naturally Aspirated)
>>email:
aamer@thepentagon.com>>fax:
(707) 982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
>>States]
>>
>>----- Original Message
-----
>>From: "Desert Fox" <
bigfoot@simmgene.com>
>>To:
"Team3S List (E-mail)" <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>>Sent:
Thursday, January 24, 2002 1:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: valve
timing
>>
>>>My bike has gear driven cams. I have heard
that Formula 1 cars use gear
>>>driven cams
too.
>>>
>>>What are the downsides to gear driven cams?
Weight?
>>>
>>>Paul/.
>>>95 black 3000GT
VR-4
>>>98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
>>>formerly
reasonable and
prudent
>>
>>Aamer
>>
>>email:
aamer@thepentagon.com [or]
aabomb@thepentagon.com>>fax:
(707) 982-8817 [add +1 country code if faxing from outside the
United
>>States]
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#735
***************************************