Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Sunday, January 20
2002 Volume 01 : Number
731
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:47:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
I dunno about the black part..all
of the Toyota motors ive worked on have
been treated..and they werent
black. _heavilly_ blued at the surfaces
that were treated for
sure.
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Wayne wrote:
> I just dropped off my
crank at a machine shop to have them give me an
> estimate on
re-nitrating, welding, etc. I told them it could not be turned
> because
it was a factory hardened crank (possibly nitrated). He said if it
> was
nitrated, it would be black. If it is hardened, that would be even
>
better for turning.
>
> My question is, where did all this talk
about factory cranks not allowed to
> be turned come from?
>
Also....If they can't be turned, why does Mitsubishi sell undersized
bearings?
>
> Thanks,
> Wayne
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:27:32
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@mvplabels.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
MDP sensor, Need Advise....
My advice? Find another dealer.
I'm no guru, but the FIPK flows much
*more* freely than the stock airbox
(unless it's incredibly filthy). For
the tech to make such a comment,
he's either inept or he's trying to confuse
you. Either way, you should
find somewhere else to bring your car for a
diagnosis. What they told
you is nonsense.
Clean the FIPK thoroughly (use the cleaning kit; or dip
in gasoline,
hose/wash it off, let dry and reapply a light amount of the
oil), check the
MAS unit for any blockage, dirt, crimped honeycombs, etc.,
and reinstall the
K&N. Make sure your battery is well charged
(since you can get false codes
with a weak battery), and then reset the
ECU. Then start looking for
another dealer to have it checked
out.
Best,
Forrest
> Ok, here is the deal. My
check engine light came on. Upon having the
local Mitsubishi dealer use
his scan tool. It turns out the reason for the
check engine light is
directly related to the MDP sensor. If I reset the
ECU, the problem
goes away for about a week, then the check engine light
comes back
on.
> The dealer said it was because of my "aftermarket intake", which is
a K&N
FIPK, which according to the tech, is suppressing the
airflow. They
suggested that I put my stock intake back in, and the
problem should go
away. I have had the FIPK on since last March, and
have had no problems
with anything, except for sometime last month, the check
engine light comes
on.
> Has anyone on the list had problems with the
MDP sensor? My guess is the
sensor is bad, and Mitsu quoted me a price
of around $125 for the part. I
could replace it myself, saving the
labor, but before I buy, I just wanted
to run it by the gurus.....
Thank for you help!
> Any thoughts?
> Thanks,
> Wayne
Bonnett
>
www.WBWebSol.com*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:55:20
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
The crankshafts for the DOHC cars is nitrided
--- it's a chemical hardning
treatment applied to the journals. I think
it can be ground and renitrided if
all of the old treatment is removed eg.
you can't just grind 1mil of a journal
and slap new bearings in. You must
take enough material off to get down to
untreated metal [ I don't have a
clue as to how deep it goes ] and then retreat.
I Think the 91 car had a
plain old crank.
According to the CAPS program there is only a standard
size bearing set for
the mains and
rods.
Jim
Berry
=============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> I just dropped off my crank at a machine shop to have
them give me an
> estimate on re-nitrating, welding, etc. I told them it
could not be turned
> because it was a factory hardened crank (possibly
nitrated). He said if it
> was nitrated, it would be black. If it is
hardened, that would be even
> better for turning.
>
> My
question is, where did all this talk about factory cranks not allowed to
> be turned come from?
> Also....If they can't be turned, why does
Mitsubishi sell undersized bearings?
>
> Thanks,
>
Wayne
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:57:30
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
The trouble is you can log just about
eveything except knock --- I haven't seen
an aftermarket knock sensor that
seems to be worth a damn.
Jim
Berry
===========================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: Jeff VanOrsdal <
jeffv@1nce.com>
To: Team3s Tech List
<
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>;
Jannusch, Matt <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
> If the guy is willing to drop $35,000 on an
engine buildup, don't you think
> he could put down $1300 or so for a
standalone ECU with logging that
> surpasses anything ANY 3S came with
stock?
>
> Jeff V.
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
>
jeffv@1nce.com>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Jannusch, Matt
>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: 'Steven M.';
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
>
> >
I'd say go for the 1996 stealth, supposedly the
> > lightest of all
years.
>
> You think you can find one? They only built
57. Then you are also stuck
> with the non-knock-logging ECU
again.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:08:26
-0600
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
>I'd say go for the 1996
stealth, supposedly the lightest of all years.
I thought the 1995 Stealth
should be lighter by couple lbs. It is almost
the same as 1996, except it
does not have the bigger wing that the 1996
has, no additional 02 sensors
and no other OBDII things. I know for sure
that it is at least 100 lbs
lighter than 1994. But I checked Dave Black's
website and it has this
data:
R/T
TT
VR-4
1994 3797
lbs 3803 lbs
1995
3792 lbs 3781
lbs
1996 3671 lbs
3781 lbs
Something ain't right here.
Philip
'95 Red R/T
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:12:55
+0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: MDP sensor, Need Advise....
Sorry, ... what is the MDP Sensor
??
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch> > Ok, here is the
deal. My check engine light came on. Upon having the
> local
Mitsubishi dealer use his scan tool. It turns out the reason
for
the
> check engine light is directly related to the MDP
sensor. If I reset the
> ECU, the problem goes away for about a
week, then the check engine light
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:27:51
-0600
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: MDP sensor, Need Advise....
At 03:12 PM 01/19/02, Roger Gerl
wrote:
>Sorry, ... what is the MDP Sensor ??
Roger, I searched my
mailbox for "MDP Sensor" from last year and found your
own post and also
Jeff's post. See below.
At 09:18 AM 06/25/01, Jeff Lucius
wrote:
>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:18:23 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
>Subject:
Re: Team3S: UPDATE! Check Engine Light
>To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>Sender:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
>> The bad sensor is the MDP Sensor (manifold differential
>
>> pressure sensor) ... Anybody know what this sensor actually
does?
>
>I was curious too so looked it up in the '92-'96 manual
that comes on
>Vinny's CD (p. 13A-244).
>
>Quote:
>-
Manifold differential pressure switch converts the intake manifold
>plenum
pressure to the voltage and inputs to the engine control
>module. Engine
control module confirms the operation of EGR system
>from this signal and,
if there is any error in the EGR system,
>memorizes the diagnostic trouble
code.
>- 5 V of power is supplied to the manifold differential
pressure
>sensor from the engine control module, and the sensor circuit
ground
>is located in the engine control module.
>- The manifold
differential pressure sensor output voltage is
>proportioned to the intake
manifold plenum pressure and sent to the
>engine control
module.
>End Quote
>
>What a waste of a sensor! I bet the ECM
still calculates the boost
>(manifold differential pressure) even though
it is measuring it (or
>am I being too cynical?)!
>
>Now this
sensor would be perfect for use by the 1st gen owners who
>have the latest
version of the TMO software that logs boost (actually
>almost any 0 to 5V
input). Anybody tried this? Hmmm, tap the 1st gen
>plenum or "upgrade" to
2nd gen plenum?
>
>Mark, I bet you could test this sensor's
operation yourself to see if
>it really is bad or not (p.
13A-245).
>
>Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:19:57
-0500
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re:
thoughts on turbo/supercharger
The new AEM computer taps into the stock
knock sensor. You can not only log
it but program specific responses
based on the feedback from the sensor.
I'm sure there are at least a couple
other ECU setups that are capable of
the same thing.
Jeff
VanOrsdal
jeffv@1nce.com-
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:58 PM
To: Jeff VanOrsdal; Team3s Tech List;
Jannusch, Matt
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
The trouble is you can log just about eveything except
knock --- I haven't
seen
an aftermarket knock sensor that seems to be
worth a damn.
Jim
Berry
===========================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: Jeff VanOrsdal <
jeffv@1nce.com>
To: Team3s Tech List
<
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>;
Jannusch, Matt
<
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
> If the guy is willing to drop $35,000 on an
engine buildup, don't you
think
> he could put down $1300 or so for a
standalone ECU with logging that
> surpasses anything ANY 3S came with
stock?
>
> Jeff V.
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
>
jeffv@1nce.com>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Jannusch, Matt
>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:54 AM
> To: 'Steven M.';
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
>
> > I'd
say go for the 1996 stealth, supposedly the
> > lightest of all
years.
>
> You think you can find one? They only built
57. Then you are also stuck
> with the non-knock-logging ECU
again.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 14:23:24
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
I thought those were discussed in a
thread a few weeks ago and it was determined
that their operation using the
stock sensor was suspect at best. The stock sensor
isn't much more than a
microphone--- the interpretation of knock from the engine
noise is
pretty complex.
Jim
Berry
=============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Jeff VanOrsdal <
jeffv@1nce.com>
To: Team3s Tech List
<
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>;
Jim Berry <
fastmax@home.com>
Sent: Saturday,
January 19, 2002 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
> The new AEM computer taps into the stock knock
sensor. You can not only log
> it but program specific responses
based on the feedback from the sensor.
> I'm sure there are at least a
couple other ECU setups that are capable of
> the same thing.
>
> Jeff VanOrsdal
>
jeffv@1nce.com>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
> Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:58 PM
> To: Jeff VanOrsdal; Team3s Tech List;
Jannusch, Matt
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
>
>
> The trouble is you can log just
about eveything except knock --- I haven't
> seen
> an aftermarket
knock sensor that seems to be worth a damn.
>
> Jim Berry
>
===========================================
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: Jeff VanOrsdal <
jeffv@1nce.com>
> To: Team3s Tech List
<
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>;
Jannusch, Matt
> <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 9:29 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re:
thoughts on turbo/supercharger
>
> > If the guy is willing to
drop $35,000 on an engine buildup, don't you
> think
> > he could
put down $1300 or so for a standalone ECU with logging that
> >
surpasses anything ANY 3S came with stock?
> >
> > Jeff
V.
> > 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
> >
jeffv@1nce.com> >
> >
-----Original Message-----
> > From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> > Of Jannusch, Matt
>
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:54 AM
> > To: 'Steven M.';
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
> >
>
>
> > > I'd say go for the 1996 stealth, supposedly the
>
> > lightest of all years.
> >
> > You think you can
find one? They only built 57. Then you are also stuck
> >
with the non-knock-logging ECU again.
> >
> > -Matt
>
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 18:23:37
-0600
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
At 04:23 PM 01/19/02, Jim
Berry wrote:
>I thought those were discussed in a thread a few weeks ago
and it was
>determined
>that their operation using the stock sensor
was suspect at best. The stock
>sensor
>isn't much more than a
microphone--- the interpretation of knock from the
>engine
>noise is pretty complex.
Yes, the stock knock
sensor is just a microphone. So as all other knock
sensors. The good part
about the stock knock sensor is that its natural
frequency is matched to
that of the engine's block, which makes it the best
microphone out there for
our engines.
http://www.team3s.com/STIM91/Images/tim_14-09.gifIt
looks like the output of a knock sensor is plain voltage. This voltage,
even
at WOT, still varies with RPM. The stock ECU knows, and AEM EMS could
be
tuned to know which voltage is considered abnormally high for a given
RPM.
The excess voltage, if I understand it correctly, is considered
knock.
Hey, someone with a datalogger, maybe you could try to log that
voltage and
knock sum at the same time??? Maybe then we would solve the
famous 2nd gen
knock logging problem???!!!
This is probably why
everyone is having problems with MSD Knock Alert,
which uses its own knock
sensor. I am wondering if I could attach the Knock
Alert to the stock knock
sensor and tune it to beep when I have abnormal
noise? Do you think this
would affect the voltage that the ECU would be
reading?
Philip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:25:28
+0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
Using the stock KN needs
the AEM to be calibrated with it. This seems to be
described in the manual
but is everything but accurate as there is simply no
reverence. Only with a
datalogger it may be calibrated to get the same
results. It is not easy than
it seems :-(
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
To: "Team3s Tech List"
<
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>;
"Jim Berry"
<
fastmax@home.com>
Sent: Saturday,
January 19, 2002 11:19 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
> The new AEM computer taps into the stock knock
sensor. You can not only
log
> it but program specific responses
based on the feedback from the sensor.
> I'm sure there are at least a
couple other ECU setups that are capable of
> the same
thing.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:32:23
+0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
> It looks like the
output of a knock sensor is plain voltage. This voltage,
> even at WOT,
still varies with RPM. The stock ECU knows, and AEM EMS could
> be tuned
to know which voltage is considered abnormally high for a given
> RPM. The
excess voltage, if I understand it correctly, is
considered
knock.
Knock and ignition must be synchronised to filter
out false knock as well as
to count the knock sum. Unfortunately, it is not
only a voltage (like
loundess increases = voltage increases) but also a
frequency that determines
how many cylinders are knocking and change over the
rpm band. The higher the
rpm the higher the frequency if there is one
cylinder knocking. This does
increase voltage as noise on the whole block
increases too. This is the bad
thing of the MSD as it simply listen to noise
at the mic.
> Hey, someone with a datalogger, maybe you could try to
log that voltage
and
> knock sum at the same time??? Maybe then we
would solve the famous 2nd gen
> knock logging problem???!!!
Sure,
this can be done, but synchronising the data after wards may be not
that easy
!
> This is probably why everyone is having problems with MSD Knock
Alert,
> which uses its own knock sensor. I am wondering if I could attach
the
Knock
> Alert to the stock knock sensor and tune it to beep when I
have abnormal
> noise? Do you think this would affect the voltage that the
ECU would be
> reading?
Yes, it depends on the input parts of the
MSD electronics as this may act as
a voltage divider with the stock parts.
Unfortuantely, some already made the
bad experience that the ECU or KN failed
after tapping in any electronics.
No cheap
playground.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:37:29
-0700
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
What i would like to know is.....where
is it written that the factory crank
is nitrated, hardened, or
ANYTHING.
I just have a feeling that somebody one day said "stock cranks are
hardened
and can't be machined down", and everyone and they're brother has
been
repeating that same sentence ever since.
Mitsubishi does not
sell undersize bearings, true, but every after market
bearing manufacturer
DOES......
Wayne
At 11:55 AM 1/19/02 -0800, Jim Berry
wrote:
>The crankshafts for the DOHC cars is nitrided --- it's a chemical
hardning
>treatment applied to the journals. I think it can be
ground and renitrided if
>all of the old treatment is removed eg. you
can't just grind 1mil of a journal
>and slap new bearings in. You must
take enough material off to get down to
>untreated metal [ I don't have a
clue as to how deep it goes ] and then
>retreat.
>
>I Think
the 91 car had a plain old crank.
>
>According to the CAPS program
there is only a standard size bearing set for
>the mains and
rods.
>
> Jim
Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:06:47
+1300
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
My crankshaft was reground when
the motor was rebuilt, it's a 93 japaneese
GTO tt. The crankshaft was
definately not nitrided, if they are they're a
yellowish brown colour. It is
now nitrided though.
Steve
> The crankshafts for the DOHC cars
is nitrided --- it's a chemical hardning
> treatment applied to the
journals. I think it can be ground and
renitrided if
> all of the old
treatment is removed eg. you can't just grind 1mil of a
journal
> and
slap new bearings in. You must take enough material off to get down to
>
untreated metal [ I don't have a clue as to how deep it goes ] and
then
retreat.
>
> I Think the 91 car had a plain old
crank.
>
> According to the CAPS program there is only a standard
size bearing set
for
> the mains and
rods.
>
> Jim
Berry
> =============================================
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
> To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:31 AM
> Subject: Team3S: Hoax
Regarding Crankshaft?
>
>
> > I just dropped off my crank
at a machine shop to have them give me an
> > estimate on re-nitrating,
welding, etc. I told them it could not be
turned
> > because it was
a factory hardened crank (possibly nitrated). He said if
it
> > was
nitrated, it would be black. If it is hardened, that would be even
> >
better for turning.
> >
> > My question is, where did all this
talk about factory cranks not allowed
to
> > be turned come
from?
> > Also....If they can't be turned, why does Mitsubishi sell
undersized
bearings?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
Wayne
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:02:16
-0600
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
At 05:32 PM 01/19/02, Roger
Gerl wrote:
>Knock and ignition must be synchronised to filter out false
knock as well as
>to count the knock sum. Unfortunately, it is not only a
voltage (like
>loundess increases = voltage increases) but also a
frequency that determines
>how many cylinders are knocking and change over
the rpm band. The higher the
>rpm the higher the frequency if there is one
cylinder knocking.
Knock and ignition happen at the same time already. We
do not have to worry
about frequency because Mitsu engineers already took
care of that by
picking the correct sensor. If I am correct, anything
noisier than a normal
ignition, which of course gets noisier with higher
RPM, is considered knock.
> > Hey, someone with a datalogger, maybe
you could try to log that voltage
>and
> > knock sum at the same
time??? Maybe then we would solve the famous 2nd gen
> > knock logging
problem???!!!
>
>Sure, this can be done, but synchronising the data
after wards may be not
>that easy !
Anyone with a 1st get car,
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE log RPM, knock sum, and
knock sensor voltage for your
2nd gen brothers and also for the science. I
will crunch the numbers to come
up with an equation that correlates knock
sum and knock sensor voltage. This
way anyone with a 2nd gen who has a log
of RPM and knock sensor voltage
would be able to extract knock sum.
Philip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:12:13
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
>From the rebuild manual --- ignore at your
own peril.
Others have tried to touch up the crank and had failures in
a
relatively short period of time. Others may have had no
problems but I
haven't seen any reports.
If you're serious about rebuilding your engine
I suggest a
copy of the manual--- the CD verson is only $35 or
so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INSPECTION
CRANKSHAFT
If
the oil clearance exceeds the limit, replace the bearing, and
crankshaft if
necessary.
(1) Measure the outside diameter of the journals and the
inside
diameter of the crankshaft bearings. If the difference
between them
(oil clearance) exceeds the limit, replace the
crankshaft bearing and, if
necessary, crankshaft.
Standard value: 0.02 - 0.05 mm (.0008 - .0020
in.)
Limit: 0.1 mm (.004 in.)
Caution
Do not attempt an undersize
machining of the crank-shaft
with special surface treatment. This
crankshaft
can be identified by its dull gray
appearance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim Berry
============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
What i would like to know is.....where is it written that the factory crank
> is nitrated, hardened, or ANYTHING.
> I just have a feeling that
somebody one day said "stock cranks are hardened
> and can't be machined
down", and everyone and they're brother has been
> repeating that same
sentence ever since.
>
> Mitsubishi does not sell undersize
bearings, true, but every after market
> bearing manufacturer
DOES......
>
> Wayne
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:23:25
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Fw: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
From the rebuild manual --- ignore at
your own peril.
Others have tried to touch up the crank and had
failures in
a relatively short period of time. Others may have had
no
problems but I haven't seen any reports.
If
you're serious about rebuilding your engine I suggest a
copy of the
manual--- the CD version is only $35 or
so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INSPECTION
CRANKSHAFT
If
the oil clearance exceeds the limit, replace the bearing,
and
crankshaft if necessary.
(1) Measure the outside diameter
of the journals and the inside
diameter of the crankshaft bearings. If
the difference
between them (oil clearance) exceeds the limit, replace
the
crankshaft bearing and, if necessary, crankshaft.
Standard
value: 0.02 - 0.05 mm (.0008 - .0020 in.)
Limit: 0.1 mm (.004
in.)
Caution
Do not attempt an undersize machining of the
crank-shaft
with special surface treatment. This
crankshaft
can be identified by its dull gray
appearance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim Berry
============================================
-----
Original Message -----
> From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
> To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
> > What i would like to know is.....where is it written that the
factory crank
> > is nitrated, hardened, or ANYTHING.
> > I
just have a feeling that somebody one day said "stock cranks are hardened
> > and can't be machined down", and everyone and they're brother has
been
> > repeating that same sentence ever since.
> >
> > Mitsubishi does not sell undersize bearings, true, but every after
market
> > bearing manufacturer DOES......
> >
> >
Wayne
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:36:30
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
Hmmm --- I hadn't read that
description before. Looks like the ECU does little
more than look at a
voltage level. The knock sensor is designed to resonate at
the onset of knock
and generate a voltage spike.
You're right, looks like this should be
looked at --- I'm not sure the data logger
can look at the output of the
knock sensor, I think all it sees is what the ECU
reports.
Has
anyone looked at the output of the knock sensor with a scope and see what
the
output looks like ???
Jim
berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Philip V. Glazatov <
gphilip@umich.edu>
To: <
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
> At 05:32 PM 01/19/02, Roger Gerl
wrote:
> >Knock and ignition must be synchronised to filter out false
knock as well as
> >to count the knock sum. Unfortunately, it is not
only a voltage (like
> >loundess increases = voltage increases) but
also a frequency that determines
> >how many cylinders are knocking and
change over the rpm band. The higher the
> >rpm the higher the
frequency if there is one cylinder knocking.
>
> Knock and ignition
happen at the same time already. We do not have to worry
> about
frequency because Mitsu engineers already took care of that by
> picking
the correct sensor. If I am correct, anything noisier than a normal
>
ignition, which of course gets noisier with higher RPM, is considered
knock.
>
> > > Hey, someone with a datalogger, maybe you
could try to log that voltage
> >and
> > > knock sum at the
same time??? Maybe then we would solve the famous 2nd gen
> > >
knock logging problem???!!!
> >
> >Sure, this can be done, but
synchronising the data after wards may be not
> >that easy !
>
> Anyone with a 1st get car, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE log RPM, knock sum, and
> knock sensor voltage for your 2nd gen brothers and also for the
science. I
> will crunch the numbers to come up with an equation that
correlates knock
> sum and knock sensor voltage. This way anyone with a
2nd gen who has a log
> of RPM and knock sensor voltage would be able to
extract knock sum.
>
> Philip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:43:39
-0600
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
At 06:36 PM 01/19/02, Jim
Berry wrote:
>You're right, looks like this should be looked at --- I'm
not sure the
>data logger
>can look at the output of the knock
sensor, I think all it sees is what
>the ECU
>reports.
The
latest TMO software could log one additional voltage
input.
Philip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:26:41
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
> You're right, looks
like this should be looked at --- I'm
> not sure the data logger can look
at the output of the
> knock sensor, I think all it sees is what the ECU
reports.
Right, the logger just reports the value stored in the ECU as
"knock sum".
> Has anyone looked at the output of the knock sensor
with
> a scope and see what the output looks like ???
Right
here:
http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 14:44:31
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@mvplabels.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: thoughts on turbo/supercharger
Our vehicle specs Page in our FAQ
Pages has the same numbers. Most were
taken right from the Stealth and
3k brochures...
- --F
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
"Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
> >I'd say go
for the 1996 stealth, supposedly the lightest of all years.
>
> I
thought the 1995 Stealth should be lighter by couple lbs. It is almost
the
same as 1996, except it does not have the bigger wing that the 1996 has,
no
additional 02 sensors and no other OBDII things. I know for sure that it
is
at least 100 lbs lighter than 1994. But I checked Dave Black's website
and it
has this data:
> R/T
TT VR-4
>
1994 3797 lbs 3803
lbs
> 1995 3792
lbs 3781 lbs
>
1996 3671 lbs 3781
lbs
> Something ain't right here.
> Philip
> '95 Red R/T
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 19:12:19
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S:
knock sum --- was turbo/supercharging
The information from the web site
kind of belies the description of
the knock sensor in the manual. Book sez
---- the knock sensor is
specially designed to resonate when it detects
knock and sends a
voltage signal to the ECU which in turn converts it to a
knock sum.
That implies that the ECU does not do any analysis or filtering of
the signal.
The web site recorded the output as an audio signal and
ran it through
some kind of frequency analysis program. Maybe the method
was
overkill, maybe just a high impedance meter or a scope is
required.
Using a scope would be virtually impossible without a
dynamometer
and a meter would have trouble keeping up with any transient
response by the knock sensor. We need somebody with a scope and
a dyno.
Jim
Berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Jannusch, Matt <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To:
<
Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: thoughts on
turbo/supercharger
> > You're right, looks like this should be
looked at --- I'm
> > not sure the data logger can look at the output
of the
> > knock sensor, I think all it sees is what the ECU reports.
>
> Right, the logger just reports the value stored in the ECU as
"knock sum".
>
> > Has anyone looked at the output of the knock
sensor with
> > a scope and see what the output looks like ???
>
> Right here:
>
>
http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:31:18
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: knock sum --- was turbo/supercharging
> The information
from the web site kind of belies the
> description of the knock sensor in
the manual. Book
> sez ---- the knock sensor is specially designed
to
> resonate when it detects knock and sends a voltage
> signal to
the ECU which in turn converts it to a
> knock sum. That implies that the
ECU does not do
> any analysis or filtering of the signal.
The
question probably becomes something on the order of how high an
amplitude
does the knock sensor have to output at a particular load to
signal
knock?
> We need somebody with a scope and a dyno.
I agree
that's probably the next logical step. I wonder if it would be
possible
to just run the audio files that guy collected through an
osciloscope program
on the PC and see if the areas he suspects of knock have
a correlating higher
amplitude.
If it really is just a matter of amplitude, then I can think
of a few
approaches to acquire real-time knock data.
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:39:35
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
The CD version doe -not- legally
allow you to not also purcahse the hard
copy.
On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Jim
Berry wrote:
> >From the rebuild manual --- ignore at your own
peril.
> Others have tried to touch up the crank and had failures
in
> a relatively short period of time. Others may have had no
>
problems but I haven't seen any reports.
>
> If you're serious
about rebuilding your engine I suggest a
> copy of the manual--- the CD
verson is only $35 or so.
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> INSPECTION
>
CRANKSHAFT
> If the oil clearance exceeds the limit, replace the bearing,
and
> crankshaft if necessary.
> (1) Measure the outside diameter of
the journals and the inside
> diameter of the crankshaft bearings. If the
difference
> between them (oil clearance) exceeds the limit, replace
the
> crankshaft bearing and, if necessary, crankshaft.
> Standard
value: 0.02 - 0.05 mm (.0008 - .0020 in.)
> Limit: 0.1 mm (.004
in.)
> Caution
> Do not attempt an undersize machining of the
crank-shaft
> with special surface treatment. This crankshaft
> can
be identified by its dull gray appearance.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jim Berry
>
============================================
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
> To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
> > What i would like to know is.....where is it written that the
factory crank
> > is nitrated, hardened, or ANYTHING.
> > I
just have a feeling that somebody one day said "stock cranks are hardened
> > and can't be machined down", and everyone and they're brother has
been
> > repeating that same sentence ever since.
> >
> > Mitsubishi does not sell undersize bearings, true, but every after
market
> > bearing manufacturer DOES......
> >
> >
Wayne
- ---
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:02:11
-0800 (PST)
From: John Christian <
jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
Hi Wayne,
[snip]
- --- Wayne
<
whietala@prodigy.net>
wrote:
> What i would like to know is.....where is it written
> that
the factory crank is nitrated, hardened, or
ANYTHING.
===>See page
E11-153
INSPECTION CRANKSHAFT
If the oil clearance exceeds the limit,
replace the
bearing,and crankshaft if necessary.
(1) Measure the outside
diameter of the journals and
the inside diameter of the crankshaft bearings.
If the
difference between them (oil clearance) exceeds the
limit, replace
the crankshaft bearing and, if
necessary, crankshaft.
Standard value:
0.02-0.04 mm (.QOO8-.0020 in.)
Limit: 0.1 mm (.004 in.) ; I
Caution
Do
not attempt an undersize machining of the
crankshaft with special surface
treatment. This
can be identified by its dull gray appearance.
>
> Mitsubishi does not sell undersize bearings, true,
> but every
after market bearing manufacturer
DOES......
- ---> You are correct
that Mitsu does NOT sell
undersize rod bearings.
However Mitsu does
have different color MAIN bearings
depending upon the dia of the main and the
bearing
bore dia.
SEE PAGE E11-157-158 below:
-
--->CRANKSHAFT BEARING INSTALLATION
When the bearing needs
replacing, select and install
a proper bearing by the following
procedure.
(1) Measure the crankshaft journal diameter and
confirm its
classification from the following table.
In the case of a bearing supplied as
a service part,
its identification color is painted at the position
shown
in the illustration.
- - (2) The cylinder block bearing bore
diameter
identification marks are stamped at the position shown
in the
illustration from the front of the engine,
beginning at No 1.
(3) Select
a proper bearing from the above table on
the basis of the identification data
confirmed under
Items (1) and(2) [Example]
1) If the measured value of a
crankshaftjournal outer
diameter is 59.996 mm, the journal is classified
as
“1” in the table. (In case the crankshaft is also
replaced by a spare
part, check the identification
color painted I on the new crankshaft. If it
is
yellow, for example, the journal is classified as
“I’?.
2) Next,
check. the cylinder block bearing hole
identification mark stamped on the
cylinder block.
If it is “I” , read the “Identification color for
the
spare bearing” column to find the identification color
of the bearing
to be used. In this case, it is “pink”.
===>However the Rebuild Manual
does cover several
other 6G7x engines so some of the Tables do not
apply
to our engines. For example the chart on page
E11-149.
CONNECTING ROD BEARING INSTALLATION
(1) When replacing
the bearing, select the proper
bearing according to the crankshaft
identification
color and the connecting rod identification mark
and
install it.
54.988 - 54.994
(2.1649-2.1651)
58.000 -
58.006
(2.2835 -2.2837)
Red 1.486-1.489
(.0585-.0586)*
- --->Our
rod journals are about 1.9something" so this
chart must be for another
engine.
I scanned the Devil's shop rebuild manual and could
send
you the 3 pdf pages if you need them.
You'll need a colored micrometer
though! LOL
Be of good cheer,
John
=====
Please
respond to
jczoom@iname.com'93 TT with
Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH 5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:37:17
-0600
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <
tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
- -----Original Message-----
From: John
Christian <
jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
To: Wayne
<
whietala@prodigy.net>;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
>Hi Wayne,
>[snip]
>--- Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
wrote:
>> What i would like to know is.....where is it
written
>> that the factory crank is nitrated, hardened,
or
>ANYTHING.
>
>===>See page E11-153
>INSPECTION
CRANKSHAFT
>If the oil clearance exceeds the limit, replace
the
>bearing,and crankshaft if necessary.
>(1) Measure the outside
diameter of the journals and
>the inside diameter of the crankshaft
bearings. If the
>difference between them (oil clearance) exceeds
the
>limit, replace the crankshaft bearing and, if
>necessary,
crankshaft.
>Standard value: 0.02-0.04 mm (.QOO8-.0020 in.)
>Limit:
0.1 mm (.004 in.) ; I
>Caution
>Do not attempt an undersize
machining of the
>crankshaft with special surface treatment.
This
>can be identified by its dull gray appearance.
So are we to
assume that a "special surface treatment"
really means nitrated or
hardened?
If so - which one?
How do we know that must be what
they
meant?
Like most, I've always heard to same thing
about this
supposed nitrating. I even
bought a newer model crank because
of
it.
This makes me wonder. I like to
have things clear and
concise - without
question if possible.
This is not ...
Is
there not any other way to
"special treat" a crank, therefore we
*know*
what was done?
My newer model crank - direct from
Mitsu wasn't what I
would consider
"dull gray" from what I remember?
I remember it being
rather shiny
and very expensive!
- - tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:05:16
+1300
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
The word is nitrided, not
nitrated, and our crankshafts are NOT nitrided,
mine has been recently
reground by the reconditioner, they are more likely
to know than any of you
guys, after all it's their job. End of story.
Steve
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 01:04:49
-0700
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
Thats kinda my feeling too. I've seen
several 3000GT cranks, both new and
used, and none of them have been dull
gray, black, or blue. All of them
have been the standard "steel"
color....Silver, with shiny journals.
The machine shop i dropped it off
at does Nitriting, and he took one look
at it and said it's not. I'll go
ahead and believe him, and maybe have it
nitrided too. After all, fixing the
journal and nitriting it is still $300
less than a new
one.......
Wayne
At 09:05 PM 1/20/02 +1300, Steve Cooper
wrote:
>The word is nitrided, not nitrated, and our crankshafts are NOT
nitrided,
>mine has been recently reground by the reconditioner, they are
more likely
>to know than any of you guys, after all it's their job. End
of story.
>
>Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:36:45
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
End of story implies there are no options
other than nitriding. Other
people are right in saying that the book does not
define what was done to
the crank to harden it --- so the answer is to try
and find out rather than
to pretend we know the answer. There are anecdotal
stories in the archives
of people turning crank journals and having failures
within hundreds of
miles.
At a research lab where I worked a hundred
years ago they surface
hardened by subjecting the material to high energy RF
field which
caused surface heating and subsequent hardening.
As
mentioned the 91 model did not have this 'special' crank. Mitsu has
some
reason to beleive it to be different and they do not sell undersized
bearings
as a result [ and no, I don't beleive it was so they could sell more
cranks ].
Jim
Berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> The word is nitrided, not nitrated, and our
crankshafts are NOT nitrided,
> mine has been recently reground by the
reconditioner, they are more likely
> to know than any of you guys, after
all it's their job. End of story.
>
> Steve
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:53:46
-0800
From: "Robert Koch" <
eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
So to clear this up for
me.......would it be better (not cost effective but
better) to buy a later
model crank for my 93 for the 625.00 I was quoted and
go with stock size
bearings. what about rods? Could I just get stock
bearings for the rods
(stock size) I am not having any work done to the rods
for resize....only
flashed and shot peened.... ??? Now you guys have got me
all mixed
up?
BTW....Nitride is a coating not a heat treat process. I would guess
you get
the crank reheat treated to spec and replate it as well but how do we
do
this if the manual says "not a good idea" I think I should get new now to
be
safe with my mods.
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Jim Berry
Sent: Sunday,
January 20, 2002 7:37 AM
To: Steve Cooper;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
End of story implies there are no
options other than nitriding. Other
people are right in saying that the book
does not define what was done to
the crank to harden it --- so the answer is
to try and find out rather than
to pretend we know the answer. There are
anecdotal stories in the archives
of people turning crank journals and having
failures within hundreds of
miles.
At a research lab where I worked a
hundred years ago they surface
hardened by subjecting the material to high
energy RF field which
caused surface heating and subsequent
hardening.
As mentioned the 91 model did not have this 'special' crank.
Mitsu has some
reason to beleive it to be different and they do not sell
undersized
bearings
as a result [ and no, I don't beleive it was so they
could sell more
cranks ].
Jim Berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> The word is nitrided, not nitrated, and our
crankshafts are NOT nitrided,
> mine has been recently reground by the
reconditioner, they are more likely
> to know than any of you guys, after
all it's their job. End of story.
>
> Steve
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:46:54
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
Wayne
I'm getting a used 95 crank next
week for my 'spare' modded long block. I'll
be taking it to a crank guy for
checking and polishing of the journels, he
might have some insight
also.
Did you ask about nitriding and how much it would cost ??? or more
important
what happens if you try to harden over an already hardened surface.
I've heard
you cant re-nitride unless all of the old treatment is removed
--- it causes hard
spots on the journal.
Ask if there is any way to
actually check the surface
hardness.
Jim
berry
===============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> Thats kinda my feeling too. I've seen several 3000GT
cranks, both new and
> used, and none of them have been dull gray, black,
or blue. All of them
> have been the standard "steel" color....Silver,
with shiny journals.
>
> The machine shop i dropped it off at does
Nitriting, and he took one look
> at it and said it's not. I'll go ahead
and believe him, and maybe have it
> nitrided too. After all, fixing the
journal and nitriting it is still $300
> less than a new
one.......
>
> Wayne
>
>
> At 09:05 PM 1/20/02
+1300, Steve Cooper wrote:
> >The word is nitrided, not nitrated, and
our crankshafts are NOT nitrided,
> >mine has been recently reground by
the reconditioner, they are more likely
> >to know than any of you
guys, after all it's their job. End of story.
> >
>
>Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:51:05
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
Well of course --- it was assumed that with
the high level of integrity we
have on this list that the person would order
both the hard copy and the
CD --- I just figured the CD would get there
faster.
Jim
Berry
===================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
Jim Berry <
fastmax@home.com>
Cc:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>;
Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Sent:
Saturday, January 19, 2002 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> The CD version doe -not- legally allow you to not also
purcahse the hard
> copy.
>
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Jim Berry
wrote:
>
> > >From the rebuild manual --- ignore at your own
peril.
> > Others have tried to touch up the crank and had failures
in
> > a relatively short period of time. Others may have had
no
> > problems but I haven't seen any reports.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 08:00:23
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
What was the issue with your crank
???
A good engine man should be able to find the answer and it might be
as
simple as grinding the journals down until any surface treatment
is
removed and then nitride the crank and put in aftermarket bearings.
Or
is nitriding the best way to go --- you might be able to improve the
crank
with some other procedure. I'll be talking to a crank guy next
week about my
rebuild maybe I can find some answers.
Nitriding is a chemical treatment
[ not a coating ], that hardens the metal.
I've done no research on it so I
don't know the mechanism.
Jim
Berry
================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Robert Koch <
eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
To: Jim
Berry <
fastmax@home.com>; Steve
Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>; <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 7:53 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> So to clear this up for me.......would it be better (not
cost effective but
> better) to buy a later model crank for my 93 for the
625.00 I was quoted and
> go with stock size bearings. what about rods?
Could I just get stock
> bearings for the rods (stock size) I am not
having any work done to the rods
> for resize....only flashed and shot
peened.... ??? Now you guys have got me
> all mixed up?
>
>
BTW....Nitride is a coating not a heat treat process. I would guess you
get
> the crank reheat treated to spec and replate it as well but how do
we do
> this if the manual says "not a good idea" I think I should get new
now to be
> safe with my mods.
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Jim Berry
> Sent:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 7:37 AM
> To: Steve Cooper;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
>
> End of story
implies there are no options other than nitriding. Other
> people are
right in saying that the book does not define what was done to
> the crank
to harden it --- so the answer is to try and find out rather than
> to
pretend we know the answer. There are anecdotal stories in the archives
>
of people turning crank journals and having failures within hundreds of
>
miles.
>
> At a research lab where I worked a hundred years ago
they surface
> hardened by subjecting the material to high energy RF field
which
> caused surface heating and subsequent hardening.
>
>
As mentioned the 91 model did not have this 'special' crank. Mitsu has
some
> reason to beleive it to be different and they do not sell
undersized
> bearings
> as a result [ and no, I don't beleive it was
so they could sell more
> cranks ].
>
> Jim Berry
>
===============================================
> ----- Original Message
-----
> From: Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax
Regarding Crankshaft?
>
>
> > The word is nitrided, not
nitrated, and our crankshafts are NOT nitrided,
> > mine has been
recently reground by the reconditioner, they are more likely
> > to
know than any of you guys, after all it's their job. End of story.
>
>
> > Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:22:31
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
>> BTW....Nitride is a
coating not a heat treat process.
>> I would guess you get the crank
reheat treated to
>> spec and replate it as well but how do we do this
if
>> the manual says "not a good idea" I think I should
get
>> new now to be safe with my mods.
What makes you say it
isn't a heat treat process? It is more of a
re-treating process to
harden a thin layer on the component. There's still
heat involved in
the process, and it isn't a coating in the sense that you
spray it on or
electroplate it on or whatever.
> Nitriding is a chemical treatment [
not a coating ], that
> hardens the metal. I've done no research on it so
I don't
> know the mechanism.
Here's the deal:
"Gas
nitriding is a process that can improve the hardness of a
soft
crankshaft. This process increases the nitrogen content of the
surface
layer of the crankshaft. Generally, this process can only be
performed on
components that have been previously hardened. Nitriding a
component that
has not been previously hardened can result in warpage.
When the metal is
heated to between 500 and 580 degrees Celsius (932 to 1076
degrees
Fahrenheit) nitrogen comes to the surface layer, which can produce a
layer
several milimeters thick that will have a Vickers rating of 700 to over
1200
HV." - "Pro Engine Blueprinting" by Ben Watson.
"There are
several ways to improve the surface hardness of the bearing
journals.
The most popular methods are nitriding (Tufftriding) and hard
chroming.
... When a crankshaft is Tufftride heat treated, it is heated to
800
degrees F and dunked in a bath of cyanide salt. Ideally, the
treatment
should penetrate approximately 0.200-inch into the metal--but in
fact the
hardening can be very shallow in spots. In some areas, the
hardening may be
so thin that simply polishing the crank can remove it!
Crankshaft shops may
be reluctant to work on Tufftrided cranks because of
this inconsistency in
hardness. Also, the equipment required for the
process is quite elaborate,
so few shops offer this service." - "The
Step-By-Step Guide to Engine
Blueprinting" by Rick Voegelin.
There's
some disagreement between these two texts as to the actual process
and heat
required, but essentially that's how it works.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:26:11
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft?
Told ya. :^)
You like
Basko?
On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Wayne wrote:
> Thats kinda my
feeling too. I've seen several 3000GT cranks, both new and
> used, and
none of them have been dull gray, black, or blue. All of them
> have been
the standard "steel" color....Silver, with shiny journals.
>
> The
machine shop i dropped it off at does Nitriting, and he took one look
>
at it and said it's not. I'll go ahead and believe him, and maybe have it
> nitrided too. After all, fixing the journal and nitriting it is still
$300
> less than a new one.......
>
> Wayne
>
>
At 09:05 PM 1/20/02 +1300, Steve Cooper wrote:
> >The word is nitrided,
not nitrated, and our crankshafts are NOT nitrided,
> >mine has been
recently reground by the reconditioner, they are more likely
> >to know
than any of you guys, after all it's their job. End of story.
>
>
> >Steve
- ---
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:35:25
+0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding Crankshaft? ADMIN NOTE !
PLEASE do send
personal comments directly and NOT to the list. Also avoid
any
CHATTING.
Thanks for keeping up the quality of this list !
Roger
for the Admins
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler"
<
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
"Wayne" <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Cc: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hoax Regarding
Crankshaft?
> Told ya. :^)
>
> You like
Basko?
>
> On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, Wayne wrote:
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:46:56
-0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
If its any consolation, my neighbors Acura
lifters tick just as bad on cold
mornings.
Sam
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jim Berry <
fastmax@home.com>
To: Jerry Bowling
<
scorpman@optonline.net>;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Lifter
Solutions,,
>An engine rebuild is pretty drastic method to eliminate
tick --- it won't
hurt
>performance nor does it damage
parts.
>
> Jim
Berry
>==========================================
>----- Original
Message -----
>From: Jerry Bowling <
scorpman@optonline.net>
>
>>
Hello all new to the list here,,
>>
>> I have been reading the
information on the site about the lifters tick
and
>> how to remedy
that. I have also read the e-mails about it as well..
Problem
>> is
my 92 Stealth (non-turbo) does not seem to want to accept
these
remedies.
>> So I am left with the lifter
problem.
>>
>> Is there another way that might help me out? If
not am I looking at
possible
>> rebuild of the motor. The vehicle
has 130K miles on it and I was thinking
>> about doing the whole turbo
kits and things like that so what would
benifite
>> me the
most?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#731
***************************************
