Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, January 17 2002
Volume 01 : Number
728
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:31:09 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: oil filters
> There's also a procedure in the service manual
on how to
> purge the air out of the lifters.
Start at
idle, and rev SLOWLY up to 3000RPM and back down over a period of
30
seconds. Repeat if necessary.
- --Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:04:10
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject:
Team3S: AWD driving handbook
Okay boys and girls ... through a connection
I now have the elusive book
" All-Wheel Drive High-Performance Handbook --
How to make your AWD car
handle; How to drive fast on the street; Road
racing, Autocrossing,
Rallying." You too can order it from England but
I will try to scan
some pages and put them online that apply to
us.
Not much for our car but they do cover the Galant GSX and Eclipse GSX
on
drag and rally setups. They mention other goodies like "Jaguar has
an
AWD version that might appear on their cars in the future." This
book
is from 1990 and what is on the Jaguar lot now? Yep. An AWD,
6-speed
manual ... that would be nice to drive TO the track in.
<grin>
I hear one or two others own the same book. I had
tried to find another
one or two that were out of print about a year ago and
run out of luck
as one printer who did reprints went out of
business.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
Soon to be offline reading my new
book ... oh happy happy joy joy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:42:04
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: oil filters
These remedies are also on our own Team3S FAQ since I
claim to be the
author of the page <grin>. I prefer to say that
instead of revving up
high for a few minutes to "purge" the air that it
actually breaks the
air bubbles into tiny tiny bubbles so they do less
ticking that way.
Who knows. It usually seems to work for my car but
then again there are
noises louder that get the attention sooner (warped
rotors, etc.).
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002
12:24
Yeah, the naturally aspirated 3/S cars don't have the oil
cooler. I
think
you are right that the oil cooler holds about 1/2 a
quart so 4.5 quarts
with
a filter change should be about
right.
Yeah, in the service manual it mentions somewhere that if you
overfill
the
oil then the crank can whip air into the oil and cause the
lifter tick.
I'd
probably eliminate that as a possibility before trying
the other
remedies.
There's also a procedure in the service manual on
how to purge the air
out
of the lifters. If I remember right, you
start the car and slowly
increase
RPMs up to 3000 and hold it there for a
couple minutes and then slowly
bring
it back down to idle speed over the
course of 10 minutes.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:38:08
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: oil filters
>> There's also a procedure in the service
manual on
>> how to purge the air out of the lifters.
> Start at idle, and rev SLOWLY up to 3000RPM and
> back down
over a period of 30 seconds. Repeat if
> necessary.
I'm not
sure what I was thinking with the "10 minutes" idea... Here's
the
actual text from the service manual:
(2) Start the engine and
slowly race* it serveral times (less than 10
times).
If racing the engine
causes the noise to die away it means that the air has
escaped from the high
pressure chamber of the lash adjuster and that the
lash adjuster has regained
its normal functions.
* Accelerate the engine from the idling speed to
3,000 rpm slowly (in 30
seconds) and then decelerate it to the idling speed
slowly (in 30 seconds).
...
If that procedure doesn't work, then you
can try one of the methods to
"clean" the lash adjusters (lighter oil,
seafoam, etc.), if none of those
works then the bad lash adjuster(s) will
need to be replaced.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:49:20
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: oil filters
I don't see anything wrong with the 10-minute
idea. Most people do this
at idle. You can also do it on the
road. Get up to about 80 mph, then
push in the clutch and rev to 3,000
and back. 30 seconds later you will
be slow enough to accelerate
again. It just gives an excuse to the wife
that you get to go driving
for 10 minutes. Never a bad thing in my
book.
<grin>
If you DO have to do it at home then it gets you out of the
house for 10
minutes instead of 2. You make the call.
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:38
I'm not sure what I was thinking
with the "10 minutes" idea... Here's
the
actual text from the
service manual:
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:20:37
EST
From:
ThorHolth@aol.comSubject: Team3S: re:
air/fuel ration meter
Thom,
In my car
(1991 Stealth R/T Turbo) I tapped both O2 Sensors at the ecu
and fed them to
a common A/F ratio gauge on the door pillar. In order to save
the ECU from
possible damage, I installed a three-position rotary switch
where position
one is off, position two is front O2 Sensor, and position
three is rear O2
sensor. One IMPORTANT NOTE: I was unsure about what
possible
effect that switching o2 sensor feeds could make while the engine
was
running, so I bought a switch which was "break before make" on the
contacts,
meaning that it will disengage one O2 sensor from the feed to the
A/F meter
before engaging the other. An additional benefit of using the
three
position switch is that I can disconnect that ECU from the A/F meter if
the
A/F meter causes a problem.
Total additional cost for installing the
switch - about $7.
Cost of New
ECU
- about $350-$1000 (depending on
source)
piece of
mind
- priceless.
- -Thor
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jan 2002 12:19:14
PST
From: Dean Benz <
dbenz@usa.net>
Subject: Team3S: Track
alignment and corner heights TT?
I thought I saw mention of a 3sracers
list, but cannot find it. Any help on
this or other sources of racing
info?
In the meantime, I am new to setting up a 3S for the track. I have
been
tracking a '99 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8T until for a couple of
years.
I now have my Tein HA suspension on my "new" '94 TT track car and
am looking
for setup advice, but it being 600 pounds or so heavier, and
appreciably
lower, I'm not sure where to start
First, alignment. I've
read the FAQ, but don't see any actual recommendations
except "-.8 to -1.2
front camber" and I thought I read maximum recommended
factory toe out for
best turn in, but can't tell if this is NA, or TT data.
Also since I have
the HA, but no scale access right now, what corner heights
are people running
on the track. suggestions to optimize bump steer would be
appreciated. Also,
what settings provide the appropriate rebound for the stock
HA
springs?
Thanks in advance
Dean
Dean Benz
dbenz@usa.net*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:24:04
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: re: air/fuel ration meter
I have ran an O2 sensor tapped into
the ECM wires (#56, rear, for my
'92 TT) for two years without problems. No
switches or anything. Last
year I added a second meter tapped into #55 (front
O2). I also have
the ARC2 tapped directly into the ECM wires. One thing I am
careful
to do is to be sure that the ground and +12V for the
meter/device
also uses the ECM wires. I don't worry about the light wire (no
light
wire at the ECM that I know of anyway).
I have a table on my web
page below listing ECM connections we often
tap into.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius7/j7-2-ecu94.htmThere
are multiple listings in the manuals for the O2 sensors for all
years. The
ones for my '92 are incorrect in the manual. If anyone
knows for sure the ECM
pin for the front and rear upstream O2 sensors
for 1994 and later models, I
would appreciate an email so I can
finish that table. You can check which is
which by disconnecting the
O2 connector in the engine bay and see which wire
goes dead. You
might want to disconnect the wires with the engine
off.
O2 sensor harness connections in engine bay:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-O2connloc.htmThanks,
Jeff
Lucius,
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: <
ThorHolth@aol.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>; <
tj@jeys.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16,
2002 12:20 PM
Subject: Team3S: re: air/fuel ration
meter
Thom,
In my car (1991 Stealth R/T
Turbo) I tapped both O2 Sensors at
the ecm and fed them to a common A/F ratio
gauge on the door pillar.
In order to save the ECU from possible damage, I
installed a
three-position rotary switch where position one is off, position
two
is front O2 Sensor, and position three is rear O2 sensor.
One
IMPORTANT NOTE: I was unsure about what possible effect
that
switching o2 sensor feeds could make while the engine was running,
so
I bought a switch which was "break before make" on the
contacts,
meaning that it will disengage one O2 sensor from the feed to the
A/F
meter before engaging the other. An additional benefit of using
the
three position switch is that I can disconnect that ECU from the
A/F
meter if the A/F meter causes a problem.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:48:30
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: oil filters
Thanks for correcting my gross error there,
Andy. In fact, I seem to
recall that the time was notes as "variable"
or "modify to fit your
specific situation." Heck, you folks out in the
Midwest might get to go
to the next town and run 50 miles. I'm
jealous.
Since we need to keep it on-topic ... is there any reason you
would need
to get the oil hot enough to go through the oil cooler since
starting
the car in the driveway might not get it hot enough? Not sure
if air is
able to get from the lash adjuster area to other areas of the oil
path.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Andrew D. Woll [mailto:awoll1@pacbell.net]
Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 14:16
Are you certain the book didn't
say 20 minutes Darren?
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren
Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
> I
don't see anything wrong with the 10-minute idea. Most people
do
this
> at idle. You can also do it on the road. Get up
to about 80 mph,
then
> push in the clutch and rev to 3,000 and
back. 30 seconds later you
will
> be slow enough to accelerate
again. It just gives an excuse to the
wife
> that you get to go
driving for 10 minutes. Never a bad thing in my
> book.
<grin>
>
> If you DO have to do it at home then it gets you
out of the house for
10
> minutes instead of 2. You make the
call.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:01:38
-0500
From: Jerry Bowling <
scorpman@optonline.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
Hello all new to the list here,,
I have
been reading the information on the site about the lifters tick and
how to
remedy that. I have also read the e-mails about it as well.. Problem
is my 92
Stealth (non-turbo) does not seem to want to accept these remedies.
So I am
left with the lifter problem.
Is there another way that might help me
out? If not am I looking at possible
rebuild of the motor. The vehicle has
130K miles on it and I was thinking
about doing the whole turbo kits and
things like that so what would benifite
me the
most?
Thanks.
*Note: I have recently upgraded the stock 225 55 R16 tires to a
245 50 R16.
now it was really close to rubbing the struts,, but they don't,,.
The
stealth handles great with them and they are alot wider to give it a
more
beefy look.
Any pros or cons about this? Let me know,,
Thanks again
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:00:25
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
I run +0.15 toe, -4.5
deg castor, and -3 deg camber up front.
I have camber plates, which allow me
to adjust castor and camber, and my
car is lowered to the max with a Ground
Control kit w/Eibachs.
The rear is 0.00 toe and -1 deg camber. Do not
dial in positive toe for a
little oversteer, because it will swap ends under
high speed braking.You
can use positive toe in the rear for autocrossing, but
not opentracking.
With this setup, the car should be perfectly neutral
until you push it
very, very hard, then it'll understeer like a FWD car.
I also tend to cord front tires on the outside edges. If you buy
Khumos,
get them shaved. They shave off the fat outside shoulder so the tire
wears
better. If unshaved, they can chunk badly.
I am getting in on
the group buy for sway bars in hopes that will cure the
understeer and save
my tires.
If the bars don't work, I'll try 900 lb springs up front. I have
550 up
there now.
Rich/94 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:10:55
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
Hey Rich before you go
up to 900lb springs (which tend to be a little harsh
on the street) Try
650-750 lb springs up front first, I had 900lb springs
on the TEIN HA's
for my old MKIV and even on the softest setting it was
rough but I had
basically no front tire rub and hardly ever hit the bump
stop when the car
was slammed down 1.5" or more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
are going to be
in the neighborhood of 700-800lbs to keep the ride
somewhat
livable.
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16,
2002 4:00 PM
> To: Dean Benz;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>
> I
run +0.15 toe, -4.5 deg castor, and -3 deg camber up front.
> I have
camber plates, which allow me to adjust castor and camber, and my
> car is
lowered to the max with a Ground Control kit w/Eibachs.
>
> The
rear is 0.00 toe and -1 deg camber. Do not dial in positive toe for a
>
little oversteer, because it will swap ends under high speed braking.You
>
can use positive toe in the rear for autocrossing, but not opentracking.
>
> With this setup, the car should be perfectly neutral until you
push it
> very, very hard, then it'll understeer like a FWD car.
>
> I also tend to cord front tires on the outside edges. If you buy
Khumos,
> get them shaved. They shave off the fat outside shoulder so the
tire wears
> better. If unshaved, they can chunk badly.
>
>
I am getting in on the group buy for sway bars in hopes that will cure
the
> understeer and save my tires.
> If the bars don't work, I'll
try 900 lb springs up front. I have 550 up
> there now.
>
>
Rich/94 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:16:11
-0500
From: Ed Leung <
eleung@summitracing.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
I'm certainly no authority on this
subject,
but if the problem is purely mechanical, I would imagine it would
come down
to replacing all the hydraulic lash adjusters. The "improved
design", part
MD337687, retails for $17.95 a piece in Ohio, so you looking
at $400+ just
in parts. If you have the labor done at the dealer, you're
gonna get
mega-fleeced. From what I've heard, the new part doesn't
necessarily
guarantee a quiet valvetrain either. Some people have claimed
that you
could get the same result simply by removing the old adjusters and
cleaning
them thoroughly. I have no direct experience with lash adjuster
replacement
(yet), so this may all be bunk info.
Ed Leung
Summit
Racing Equipment
(330) 630-0270 ext. 308
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jerry Bowling [SMTP:scorpman@optonline.net]
Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:02 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
Hello all new to the list here,,
I have
been reading the information on the site about the lifters tick and
how to
remedy that. I have also read the e-mails about it as well.. Problem
is my 92
Stealth (non-turbo) does not seem to want to accept these
remedies.
So I
am left with the lifter problem.
Is there another way that might help me
out? If not am I looking at
possible
rebuild of the motor. The vehicle
has 130K miles on it and I was thinking
about doing the whole turbo kits and
things like that so what would
benifite
me the
most?
Thanks.
*Note: I have recently upgraded the stock 225 55 R16 tires to a
245 50 R16.
now it was really close to rubbing the struts,, but they don't,,.
The
stealth handles great with them and they are alot wider to give it a
more
beefy look.
Any pros or cons about this? Let me know,,
Thanks again
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:31:16
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
> *Note: I have recently upgraded the stock
225 55 R16 tires to
> a 245 50 R16. now it was really close to rubbing
the struts,
> but they don't,,. The stealth handles great with them and
they
> are alot wider to give it a more beefy look.
>
> Any
pros or cons about this?
I ran my old '95 3000GT with those size tires
for 3 years with no problems.
Definitely saw a positive difference in
traction and cornering.
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:21:16
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
I have heard this happening with switching
from 1G to 2G and directly
replacing 2G with new 2G adjusters. I have
never heard of this happening
when switching to the adjusters out of the 99
motors. Hey I may have just
been asleep at that time and missed the
Trolley, its happened before and
will happen again :/
Russ
F
CT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed Leung
[SMTP:eleung@summitracing.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:16
PM
> To: 'Jerry Bowling';
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
>
> I'm certainly no
authority on this subject,
> but if the problem is purely mechanical, I
would imagine it would come
> down
> to replacing all the hydraulic
lash adjusters. The "improved design", part
>
> MD337687, retails
for $17.95 a piece in Ohio, so you looking at $400+ just
>
> in
parts. If you have the labor done at the dealer, you're gonna get
>
mega-fleeced. From what I've heard, the new part doesn't necessarily
>
guarantee a quiet valvetrain either. Some people have claimed that you
>
could get the same result simply by removing the old adjusters and
>
cleaning
> them thoroughly. I have no direct experience with lash
adjuster
> replacement
> (yet), so this may all be bunk
info.
>
> Ed Leung
> Summit Racing Equipment
> (330)
630-0270 ext. 308
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Jerry Bowling [SMTP:scorpman@optonline.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16,
2002 4:02 PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
>
> Hello all new to the list
here,,
>
> I have been reading the information on the site about
the lifters tick and
> how to remedy that. I have also read the e-mails
about it as well..
> Problem
> is my 92 Stealth (non-turbo) does not
seem to want to accept these
> remedies.
> So I am left with the
lifter problem.
>
> Is there another way that might help me out? If
not am I looking at
> possible
> rebuild of the motor. The vehicle
has 130K miles on it and I was thinking
> about doing the whole turbo kits
and things like that so what would
> benifite
> me the
most?
>
Thanks.
>
> *Note: I have recently upgraded the stock 225 55 R16
tires to a 245 50
> R16.
> now it was really close to rubbing the
struts,, but they don't,,. The
> stealth handles great with them and they
are alot wider to give it a more
> beefy look.
>
> Any pros
or cons about this? Let me know,, Thanks again
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:29:28
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
Like I said, before I
replace the springs, I will try the sway bars.
Rich
At 04:10 PM
1/16/02 -0500, Furman, Russell wrote:
>Hey Rich before you go up to 900lb
springs (which tend to be a little harsh
>on the street) Try 650-750
lb springs up front first, I had 900lb springs
>on the TEIN HA's for
my old MKIV and even on the softest setting it was
>rough but I had
basically no front tire rub and hardly ever hit the bump
>stop when the
car was slammed down 1.5" or more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
>are
going to be in the neighborhood of 700-800lbs to keep the ride
somewhat
>livable.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jan 2002 14:03:19
PST
From: Dean Benz <
dbenz@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track
alignment and corner heights TT?
Thank you both for the info.
I'm
trying to stay BSP legal for autocross, so many of your mods while
appealing
are a no-no. Though I am getting a set of the sway bars. (Merritt,
it is not
a group buy anymore though,
Steve@3SXPerformance.com is getting
us
an even better deal, but only until 1/31!)
Corner heights/weight
also have an impact on suspension geometry, primarily in
the bump steer area,
that is why I asked about corner heights.
Why so much camber in the
front? On my old car, much over 1.2 or 1.5 and the
inside temps started to
get to high on the pyro, and it would eat inside
shoulders. Kumhos, and BFG
R1As. I also nevr ran into the shoulder chunking.
Maybe this is all because
of the added weight from what I am used to.
What cold/hot tire pressures
you guys run on what size/brand of tires at the
track?
Jim, I just
bought a set of RP01s, do you have 42mm or 37mm offset, and what
size tires?
I have the 42s, and was going to try and squeeze a 275x35x17 on
it. The
wouldn't clear the stock suspension, I'm hoping to just clear the
Tein. I am
a little worried that those tiny spokes will hold up under the
weight
of this car and sticky race tires. How many track miles do you have
on
yours?
Dean Benz
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:49:20
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
I have to second the comment on
ride quality --- my car has that hard edged
race car feel. While fun on the
track it's a little harsh for street use especially
in areas where cold
winters make the roads a little rough --- my car is not a
daily driver and I
live it the Golden Ghetto area of Southern California so it's
not much of an
issue for me.
Jim
Berry
==================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Furman, Russell <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
To:
'Merritt' <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>
Hey Rich before you go up to 900lb springs (which tend to be a little
harsh
> on the street) Try 650-750 lb springs up front first,
I had 900lb springs
> on the TEIN HA's for my old MKIV and even on the
softest setting it was
> rough but I had basically no front tire rub and
hardly ever hit the bump
> stop when the car was slammed down 1.5" or
more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
> are going to be in the neighborhood
of 700-800lbs to keep the ride somewhat
> livable.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:37:53
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Lifter Solutions,,
An engine rebuild is pretty drastic method to
eliminate tick --- it won't hurt
performance nor does it damage
parts.
Jim
Berry
==========================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: Jerry Bowling <
scorpman@optonline.net>
>
Hello all new to the list here,,
>
> I have been reading the
information on the site about the lifters tick and
> how to remedy that. I
have also read the e-mails about it as well.. Problem
> is my 92 Stealth
(non-turbo) does not seem to want to accept these remedies.
> So I am left
with the lifter problem.
>
> Is there another way that might help
me out? If not am I looking at possible
> rebuild of the motor. The
vehicle has 130K miles on it and I was thinking
> about doing the whole
turbo kits and things like that so what would benifite
> me the
most?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:37:59
-0600
From: "Black, Dave (ICT)" <
dblai@allstate.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Group buy - NRAuto White or EL-Indiglo Gauge Faces
Hi all,
I am
trying to organize a group buy for the NRAuto (
http://www.nrauto.com)
gauge faces.
They are available in either "white" or "E-L Indiglo". For
pics, please
visit the site above. They are available for all model years
and for
both the Stealth and 3000GT.
The prices are as follows:
White
gauge faces: $115 + $6 shipping
EL-Indiglo faces: $119 + $6 shipping
I
need at least 25 people to receive the above prices. If we get more
than
50, the prices drop to $99 each.
If you are interested, I need
the following info (note that I do NOT need,
nor do I want the credit card
number - you will call NRAuto later with your
credit card number)
1.
Billing Name on credit card
2. Billing address on credit card
3. Billing
phone on credit card
4. Year of vehicle
5. Model of vehicle
6. White or
Indoglo gauges?
Dave 95VR4
http://www.daveblack.net***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:47:36
-0500
From: Ed Leung <
eleung@summitracing.com>
Subject:
Team3S: parts:
Before this gets out-of-hand:
I've had quite a few
people ask me about getting parts discounts from
Summit Racing. At the
present time, Summit does not offer car club
discounts (though it has been
discussed). If it were up to me, I would
gladly hook everyone up.
Unfortunately, it isn't up to me. Summit does have
sales every once in a
while, and I will be sure to alert everyone whenever
that next time
is.
Ed Leung
Summit Racing Equipment
(330) 630-0270 ext.
308
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:21:58
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: Dean Benz <
dbenz@usa.net>
To: Jim Berry <
fastmax@home.com>; Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>>Corner
heights/weight also have an impact on suspension geometry, primarily
in
>>the bump steer area, that is why I asked about corner
heights.
Hmmm --- I'll have to look into that !!! Do you have any
references for the
info.
=================================================
>>Why so
much camber in the front? On my old car, much over 1.2 or 1.5 and
the
>>inside temps started to get to high on the pyro, and it would eat
inside
>>shoulders. Kumhos, and BFG R1As. I also nevr ran into the
shoulder chunking.
>>Maybe this is all because of the added weight from
what I am used to.
The initial reason was a heavy car with lot's of
suspension compliance. It didn't
result in unusual tire wear and the temps
felt even [ I just got a pyrometer and
haven't used it yet ]. With the -3º
the car feels neutral so until I get it dialed in
with the pyrometer I'll
leave it there. I've never had chunking with the A032's
and I have three
weekends using those full time. The tire wear is fairly even, the
excess
camber wears the inside and the hard cornering wears the outside, I
usually
have tread in the middle when I'm done. I try to get the most out of my
tires
--- when I'm done they have to patch em up to use them as
planters.
>>What cold/hot tire pressures you guys run on what
size/brand of tires at the
>>track?
I've been running 38 front
and 36 rear [ cold ] on the Yoko's --- add about 6 to 8
pounds for hot. I've
been messing around with different track tires the last 3 or
4 times out so
I've got my self a little confused as to pressure. I've been running
used
Hoosier or Goodyear racing slicks so between the different tires and
the
wildly different temperatures at the tracks [ 100+ at Willow Springs to
65º at
Sears Point ] I've had trouble getting pressures set. Now that I have
the
pyrometer I'll pay more attention to
pressure.
==================================================
>>Jim,
I just bought a set of RP01s, do you have 42mm or 37mm offset, and
what
>>size tires? I have the 42s, and was going to try and squeeze a
275x35x17 on
>>it. The wouldn't clear the stock suspension, I'm hoping
to just clear the
>>Tein. I am a little worried that those tiny spokes
will hold up under the
>>weight of this car and sticky race
tires. How many track miles do you have on
>>yours?
I have
probably close to 1000 track miles on the RP01's with no problems,
like you I
was a little concerned about the ability to support the car under
race
conditions --- so far so good --- when I get the money I'll probably buy
a set
of CCW's. Road tracks probably aren't as violent as autocross as far as
wear
and tear so I'm not sure about their ability to hold up to
AutoX.
I'm using 255 - 40 - 17, the main reason I didn't go to the 275's
is rim width, I have
the 9" RP01's but if I go to the 275 I'd like a 10" rim.
I don't remember which
offset I got but it's kind of irrelevant --- I have
the H&R 25mm hubcentric spacers
to widen the front track. Stock track is
½" narrower in the front which causes
understeer [ the third biggest problem
with our car --- after weight and brakes ]
As to clearing the strut, if
you adjust the stock eccentric to max positive that will
tip the top of the
tire out to clear the strut, then use the camber plate to get your
negative
camber --- wheel well clearance may be a problem if your springs and
shocks
are too soft.
Jim
Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:29:25
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
I am getting a
set of the sway bars. (Merritt,
>it is not a group buy anymore though,
Steve@3SXPerformance.com is getting
us
>an even better deal, but only until 1/31!)
Oh? Nobody
told me.
>
>Why so much camber in the front? On my old car, much
over 1.2 or 1.5 and the
>inside temps started to get to high on the pyro,
and it would eat inside
>shoulders. Kumhos, and BFG R1As. I also nevr ran
into the shoulder chunking.
>Maybe this is all because of the added weight
from what I am used to.
I destroyed a set of new Kuhmos first time out at
-1 deg. Corded the
outside edges down. I called Tire Rack, and they
said add more camber. So
I did, and the problem lessened. I've checked my
fronts with a pyro, and
they were within 10 deg all the way
across.
>
>What cold/hot tire pressures you guys run on what
size/brand of tires at the
>track?\
I run 42/38 cold on Kuhmos and
Yoko 0323R tires.
>
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:28:10
-0700
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Spring rates ?
What is the stock spring rate ?
How many pounds
?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Furman, Russell
[mailto:RFurman2@MassMutual.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:11
PM
To: 'Merritt'
Cc: 'Team 3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track alignment and
corner heights TT?
Hey Rich before you go up to 900lb springs (which
tend to be a little harsh
on the street) Try 650-750 lb springs up
front first, I had 900lb springs
on the TEIN HA's for my old MKIV and
even on the softest setting it was
rough but I had basically no front tire
rub and hardly ever hit the bump
stop when the car was slammed down 1.5" or
more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
are going to be in the neighborhood of
700-800lbs to keep the ride somewhat
livable.
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: Dean Benz;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>
> I
run +0.15 toe, -4.5 deg castor, and -3 deg camber up front.
> I have
camber plates, which allow me to adjust castor and camber, and my
> car is
lowered to the max with a Ground Control kit w/Eibachs.
>
> The
rear is 0.00 toe and -1 deg camber. Do not dial in positive toe for a
>
little oversteer, because it will swap ends under high speed braking.You
>
can use positive toe in the rear for autocrossing, but not opentracking.
>
> With this setup, the car should be perfectly neutral until you
push it
> very, very hard, then it'll understeer like a FWD car.
>
> I also tend to cord front tires on the outside edges. If you buy
Khumos,
> get them shaved. They shave off the fat outside shoulder so the
tire wears
> better. If unshaved, they can chunk badly.
>
>
I am getting in on the group buy for sway bars in hopes that will cure
the
> understeer and save my tires.
> If the bars don't work, I'll
try 900 lb springs up front. I have 550 up
> there now.
>
>
Rich/94 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:41:06
-0700
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
You'll love them because
your ride doesn't get harsh.
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002
2:29 PM
To: Furman, Russell
Cc: 'Team 3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track
alignment and corner heights TT?
Like I said, before I replace the
springs, I will try the sway bars.
Rich
At 04:10 PM 1/16/02 -0500,
Furman, Russell wrote:
>Hey Rich before you go up to 900lb springs (which
tend to be a little harsh
>on the street) Try 650-750 lb springs up
front first, I had 900lb springs
>on the TEIN HA's for my old MKIV
and even on the softest setting it was
>rough but I had basically no front
tire rub and hardly ever hit the bump
>stop when the car was slammed down
1.5" or more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
>are going to be in the
neighborhood of 700-800lbs to keep the ride
somewhat
>livable.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:24:42
-0800
From: "Browne, Troy E" <
troy.e.browne@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Does anyone have pics of first and sencond gen lifters?
I've been
looking through Jeff's webpage and the team 3s archives but can't
seem to
find any pics to show the difference between the 1st and 2nd
gen
lifters. I'm sure someone's posted them before but I can't seem to
locate
anything.
Troy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:34:52
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
oil filters
Won't work --- as mentioned yesterday there is a thermostat
on the oil
cooler line and you won't get the oil hot enough at idle to open
the line
up.
Jim
Berry
========================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Darren Schilberg <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
> Since we
need to keep it on-topic ... is there any reason you would need
> to get
the oil hot enough to go through the oil cooler since starting
> the car
in the driveway might not get it hot enough? Not sure if air is
>
able to get from the lash adjuster area to other areas of the oil
path.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:33:18
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Spring rates ?
As I recall about 220 front and 180 in the rear --- I'm
too lazy to look it up.
Jim
Berry
===================================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Floyd, Jim <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
To: 'Team 3S'
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:28 PM
Subject: Team3S: Spring rates
?
> What is the stock spring rate ?
> How many pounds ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Furman, Russell
[mailto:RFurman2@MassMutual.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:11
PM
> To: 'Merritt'
> Cc: 'Team 3S'
> Subject: RE: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>
> Hey Rich before you go
up to 900lb springs (which tend to be a little harsh
> on the
street) Try 650-750 lb springs up front first, I had 900lb
springs
> on the TEIN HA's for my old MKIV and even on the softest setting
it was
> rough but I had basically no front tire rub and hardly ever hit
the bump
> stop when the car was slammed down 1.5" or more. The
TEIN's for the VR-4
> are going to be in the neighborhood of 700-800lbs to
keep the ride somewhat
> livable.
>
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:00 PM
> > To: Dean Benz;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
> >
> > I run +0.15 toe, -4.5 deg castor, and -3 deg camber up front.
> > I have camber plates, which allow me to adjust castor and camber,
and my
> > car is lowered to the max with a Ground Control kit
w/Eibachs.
> >
> > The rear is 0.00 toe and -1 deg camber.
Do not dial in positive toe for a
> > little oversteer, because it will
swap ends under high speed braking.You
> > can use positive toe in the
rear for autocrossing, but not opentracking.
> >
> > With
this setup, the car should be perfectly neutral until you push it
> >
very, very hard, then it'll understeer like a FWD car.
> >
>
> I also tend to cord front tires on the outside edges. If you buy
Khumos,
> > get them shaved. They shave off the fat outside shoulder so
the tire wears
> > better. If unshaved, they can chunk badly.
>
>
> > I am getting in on the group buy for sway bars in hopes that
will cure the
> > understeer and save my tires.
> > If the
bars don't work, I'll try 900 lb springs up front. I have 550 up
> >
there now.
> >
> > Rich/94 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:34:38
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Does anyone have pics of first and sencond gen lifters?
The only
differences is in the size of the oil hole --- it probably
wouldn't show up
on a picture.
Jim
Berry
=========================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: Browne, Troy E <
troy.e.browne@intel.com>
To:
'Team3S List' <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:24 PM
Subject: Team3S: Does anyone have pics of
first and sencond gen lifters?
> I've been looking through Jeff's
webpage and the team 3s archives but can't
> seem to find any pics to show
the difference between the 1st and 2nd gen
> lifters. I'm sure
someone's posted them before but I can't seem to locate
>
anything.
>
> Troy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:55:22
+0000
From:
apedenko@attbi.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
Group buy - NRAuto White or EL-Indiglo Gauge Faces
Can somebody explain
to me the difference between these
(that go for ~100) and the ones on ebay
that go for 50-
70? I mean is there that big of a difference?
Alex
'95 VR4
> Hi all,
>
> I am trying to organize a
group buy for the NRAuto (
http://www.nrauto.com)
> gauge
faces. They are available in either "white" or "E-L Indiglo".
For
> pics, please visit the site above. They are available for all
model years
> and for both the Stealth and 3000GT.
>
>
The prices are as follows:
> White gauge faces: $115 + $6 shipping
>
EL-Indiglo faces: $119 + $6 shipping
>
> I need at least 25 people
to receive the above prices. If we get more than
> 50, the prices
drop to $99 each.
>
> If you are interested, I need the following
info (note that I do NOT need,
> nor do I want the credit card number -
you will call NRAuto later with your
> credit card number)
>
> 1. Billing Name on credit card
> 2. Billing address on credit
card
> 3. Billing phone on credit card
> 4. Year of vehicle
>
5. Model of vehicle
> 6. White or Indoglo gauges?
>
> Dave
95VR4
>
http://www.daveblack.net***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:17:12
-0700
From: "Zach Sauerman" <
axemaddock@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: oi filters revisited
I did a little internet research. The SAE
document costs a pretty penny, so
it is tough to get the definitive answer
about filter performance.
I looked at the page Jim Berry listed yesterday.
This page is duplicated
many times on different websites. I found another
page with some more
information. You can decide what you think is
best..
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart5.htmCheers,
Zach
Sauerman
'94 Pearl Yellow TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:45:15
-0500
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
I thought you would
have MORE understeer if you
- - stiffen the front springs (from 550 lb to 900
lb),
- - stiffen front sway bar,
- - stiffen front shocks,
- - install
front strut bar,
- - deflate front tires,
and more oversteer if you do the
opposite.
I have some experience with motorcycle springs and I can tell
that even a
5-10% change in stiffness is very-very noticeable on a
motorcycle. Also, I
would never double spring stiffness just on one
end.
Philip
-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Furman,
Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
wrote:
Hey Rich before you go up to 900lb springs (which tend to be a
little harsh
on the street) Try 650-750 lb springs up front
first, I had 900lb springs
on the TEIN HA's for my old MKIV and even on
the softest setting it was
rough but I had basically no front tire rub and
hardly ever hit the bump
stop when the car was slammed down 1.5" or
more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
are going to be in the neighborhood of
700-800lbs to keep the ride somewhat
livable.
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16,
2002 4:00 PM
>
To: Dean Benz;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>
> I run +0.15 toe, -4.5 deg
castor, and -3 deg camber up front.
> I have camber plates, which allow me
to adjust castor and camber, and my
> car is lowered to the max with a
Ground Control kit w/Eibachs.
>
> The rear is 0.00 toe and -1 deg
camber. Do not dial in positive toe for a
> little oversteer, because it
will swap ends under high speed braking.You
> can use positive toe in the
rear for autocrossing, but not opentracking.
>
> With this setup,
the car should be perfectly neutral until you push it
> very, very hard,
then it'll understeer like a FWD car.
>
> I also tend to cord front
tires on the outside edges. If you buy Khumos,
> get them shaved. They
shave off the fat outside shoulder so the tire
wears
> better. If
unshaved, they can chunk badly.
>
> I am getting in on the group buy
for sway bars in hopes that will cure
the
> understeer and save my
tires.
> If the bars don't work, I'll try 900 lb springs up front. I have
550 up
> there now.
>
> Rich/94 VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:36:01
-0600
From: "Black, Dave (ICT)" <
dblai@allstate.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Group buy - NRAuto White or EL-Indiglo Gauge
Faces
Alex,
IMHO, from what I have seen on the other gauge faces
(the cheaper ones),
they look like a piece of paper with speedo numbers on
them - almost like
someone printed them out on their printer. Doesn't
look very "professional"
to me. It may be the case of "...you get what
you pay for" although I have
only seen 2 or so of the others. I haven't
seen the cheaper indiglo so I
can't comment on those.
Dave 95VR4
http://www.daveblack.net>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
apedenko@attbi.com
[SMTP:apedenko@attbi.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 6:55
PM
> To:
team3s@team3s.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Group buy - NRAuto White or EL-Indiglo Gauge
>
Faces
>
> Can somebody explain to me the difference between these
> (that go for ~100) and the ones on ebay that go for 50-
> 70? I
mean is there that big of a difference?
>
>
Alex
>
> '95 VR4
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I
am trying to organize a group buy for the NRAuto
> (
http://www.nrauto.com)
> > gauge
faces. They are available in either "white" or "E-L Indiglo".
>
For
> > pics, please visit the site above. They are available for
all model
> years
> > and for both the Stealth and 3000GT.
> >
> > The prices are as follows:
> > White gauge
faces: $115 + $6 shipping
> > EL-Indiglo faces: $119 + $6
shipping
> >
> > I need at least 25 people to receive the
above prices. If we get more
> than
> > 50, the prices drop
to $99 each.
> >
> > If you are interested, I need the
following info (note that I do NOT
> need,
> > nor do I want the
credit card number - you will call NRAuto later with
> your
> >
credit card number)
> >
> > 1. Billing Name on credit
card
> > 2. Billing address on credit card
> > 3. Billing
phone on credit card
> > 4. Year of vehicle
> > 5. Model of
vehicle
> > 6. White or Indoglo gauges?
> >
> > Dave
95VR4
> >
http://www.daveblack.net***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:05:36
EST
From:
NETM1NDER@aol.comSubject: Team3S: Tec`s
rear strut brace
Hi, just to complicate things more I will be testing my
supper strong &
massive rear brace 1.3/4 OD, I have finally finished a
fixed & removable
prototype rear brace, it will be going on my car on
Friday. Yes, I will post
the details & PIC `s on my web site after all
my test are done. This will
take a week or two, how about that for
confusion. The fixed means that it
will take as long to instal the brace as
it to remove it. The removable one
will be able to take apart in a minute or
two & still be as strong.
Chris
95VR4(tecperformance.com)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:19:07
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
I showed a photo of my
car going through turn 6 at Road America to the
suspension wizard on the
Trans Am team I crewed on last year. He said,
"It's leaning too much. You
need more front spring." I said I was already
running 650. He said, "Bigger
sway bar then."
I suspect he knows what he's doing.
Rich
At 04:45 PM 1/16/02 -0500,
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
wrote:
>I thought you would have MORE understeer if you
>- stiffen
the front springs (from 550 lb to 900 lb),
>- stiffen front sway
bar,
>- stiffen front shocks,
>- install front strut bar,
>-
deflate front tires,
>and more oversteer if you do the
opposite.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:17:31
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Lifter Solutions,,
> An engine rebuild is pretty drastic
method to
> eliminate tick --- it won't hurt performance
> nor does
it damage parts.
Actually it might hurt performance if you let it get bad
enough since the
valves might not open as far as they should. Same
effects as running solid
lifters too loose. Granted, that would be a
rather extreme case, but it is
possible.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:04:08
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@mvplabels.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
If you ever need a refresher about
*which* suspension changes yield *what*
results, we "appropriated" the Guide
to High Performance Handling from the
TireRack website (which they
appropriated from BF Goodrich), and put it on
our site. Find the
reference at:
www.Team3S.com/FAQhandling-guide.htm.
Best,
Forrest
-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Merritt" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To:
<
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com>;
<
team3s@team3s.com>
> I
showed a photo of my car going through turn 6 at Road America to
the
suspension wizard on the Trans Am team I crewed on last year. He said,
"It's
leaning too much. You need more front spring." I said I was already
running
650. He said, "Bigger sway bar then."
> I suspect he knows what
he's doing.
> Rich
>
> At 04:45 PM 1/16/02 -0500,
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
wrote:
> >I thought you would have MORE understeer if you
> >-
stiffen the front springs (from 550 lb to 900 lb),
> >- stiffen front
sway bar,
> >- stiffen front shocks,
> >- install front strut
bar,
> >- deflate front tires,
> >and more oversteer if you do
the opposite.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 23:53:55
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
At 09:04 PM 1/16/02
-0800, Bob Forrest wrote:
>If you ever need a refresher about *which*
suspension changes yield *what*
>results, we "appropriated" the Guide to
High Performance Handling from the
>TireRack website (which they
appropriated from BF Goodrich), and put it on
>our site. Find the
reference at:
www.Team3S.com/FAQhandling-guide.htm.
>
Hmmm.....Seems
like I am doing everything right -- camber, caster, toe,
etc., and my front
tire pressure is set right according to the pyrometer.
So I'm beginning to
wonder if my problem is not really understeer as much
as I'm wearing down the
outside corners of my tires and cording them
prematurely. I wonder if a new
front sway bar might cure that.
I just assumed I have oversteer because
of the way the tires wear. I'm
certainly no expert, but my car feels neutral
in the corners.
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:43:08
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: What happened to the sway bar buy?
I keep hearing rumors that the
group buy on sway bars is off, but
3SXPerformance.com is offering better
prices.
I seem to have missed the key posts. Can anybody explain what's
happening?
Rich/slow old poop/94 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jan 2002 22:54:24
PST
From: Dean Benz <
dbenz@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track
alignment and corner heights TT?
"Bob Forrest" <
bf@mvplabels.com> wrote:
> If you
ever need a refresher about *which* suspension changes
yield
*what*...
I think we all wish it was that easy. Remember that
while these are good
guidelines, they aren't always right.
I'm not
claiming to be an expert, just a fellow frustrated with the laws of
physics
weekend warrior trying to figure it all out.
The Trans Am guy was
probably right to suggest sway bars. If stiffer springs
fixed everything, we
would all be driving 3800 pound suspensionless carts
around the track.
Ouch...
Tires are the biggest gotcha on this list. Both an under inflated
and an over
inflated tire will slip more than a properly inflated tire. with
just one
adjustment in tire pressure you can change contact patch and
overall
suspension stiffness which depending on where you started could have
different
affects. Try lowering you right rear pressure 5 pounds, and raising
your front
left pressure 5 pounds and try a slalom. The chart says they
should feel the
same. I bet they don't
Camber, sway bars, and springs
can also do the opposite of what is on the list
depending on
circumstances.
Unfortunately, everything on this list works together with
everything else and
some things not even on the list like driving style. If
you like to brake
late, and gas hard in a rear wheel drive car, you may never
have even felt
understeer. Our job is to try and find some kind of balance
between all these
pieces.
If suspension tuning was easy, you'd think
the factory engineers who do it for
a living would have picked the ideal
settings. 8^)
I'm going to take my Formula 1 car out for a quick Rally
now... DOH
Dean Benz
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jan 2002 23:04:49
PST
From: Dean Benz <
dbenz@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Team3S: What
happened to the sway bar buy?]
http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60650&perpage=15&pagenumber=210th
and 11th message down.
Basically Steve was able to offer us all a better
deal than Demon had been
able to negotiate, so Demon turned us over to
Steve@3SXPerformance.com.
"Prices
are individually: $180 shipped for NA or TT
both: NA $322 shipped TT $332
shipped"
Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
wrote:
> I keep hearing rumors that the group buy on sway bars is off,
but
> 3SXPerformance.com is offering better prices.
>
> I
seem to have missed the key posts. Can anybody explain what's happening?
>
> Rich/slow old poop/94 VR4
Dean Benz
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:14:15
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>I'm not claiming
to be an expert, just a fellow frustrated with the laws of
>physics
weekend warrior trying to figure it all out.
Me too.
>The
Trans Am guy was probably right to suggest sway bars. If stiffer
springs
>fixed everything, we would all be driving 3800 pound
suspensionless carts
>around the track. Ouch...
I am happy to hear
you say that. I am not too crazy about that table. It
probably works great
for RWD cars, but nothing seems to apply to AWD cars.
Rich/slow old
poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:02:39
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
Ahh..those are fairly
universal rules..the only deviance would possibly be
with the rear steering,
but it wouldnt be a huge difference.
That chart deals with basic physics
of weight transfer..Id not discount it
so quickly.
On Thu, 17 Jan
2002, Merritt wrote:
> >
> >I'm not claiming to be an
expert, just a fellow frustrated with the laws of
> >physics weekend
warrior trying to figure it all out.
>
> Me too.
>
>
>The Trans Am guy was probably right to suggest sway bars. If stiffer
springs
> >fixed everything, we would all be driving 3800 pound
suspensionless carts
> >around the track. Ouch...
>
> I am
happy to hear you say that. I am not too crazy about that table. It
>
probably works great for RWD cars, but nothing seems to apply to AWD cars.
>
> Rich/slow old poop
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:07:47
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
Phil, again I have
failed to give all pertinent information and must
apologize. I had 650
lbs. (approx. Tein measures springs in KGs not Lbs.)
I went up to 750
or 775 then to the 900's in the front and bumped the rears
up to like 400-450
lbs. in the rear. I upped the spring rates almost
proportionately
when I was making the changes.
> -----Original Message-----
>
From:
pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com
[SMTP:pvg1@daimlerchrysler.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:45
PM
> To:
team3s@team3s.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>
> I
thought you would have MORE understeer if you
> - stiffen the front
springs (from 550 lb to 900 lb),
> - stiffen front sway bar,
> -
stiffen front shocks,
> - install front strut bar,
> - deflate front
tires,
> and more oversteer if you do the opposite.
>
> I
have some experience with motorcycle springs and I can tell that even a
>
5-10% change in stiffness is very-very noticeable on a motorcycle. Also,
I
> would never double spring stiffness just on one end.
>
>
Philip
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
-
> "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
wrote:
>
> Hey Rich before you go up to 900lb springs (which tend
to be a little
> harsh
> on the street) Try 650-750 lb springs
up front first, I had 900lb
> springs
> on the TEIN HA's for
my old MKIV and even on the softest setting it was
> rough but I had
basically no front tire rub and hardly ever hit the bump
> stop when the
car was slammed down 1.5" or more. The TEIN's for the VR-4
> are
going to be in the neighborhood of 700-800lbs to keep the ride
>
somewhat
> livable.
>
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From:
Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
> >
Sent: Wednesday, January 16,
2002 4:00 PM
> >
To: Dean Benz;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
> >
> > I run +0.15
toe, -4.5 deg castor, and -3 deg camber up front.
> > I have camber
plates, which allow me to adjust castor and camber, and my
> > car is
lowered to the max with a Ground Control kit w/Eibachs.
> >
>
> The rear is 0.00 toe and -1 deg camber. Do not dial in positive toe
for
> a
> > little oversteer, because it will swap ends under
high speed braking.You
> > can use positive toe in the rear for
autocrossing, but not opentracking.
> >
> > With this setup,
the car should be perfectly neutral until you push it
> > very, very
hard, then it'll understeer like a FWD car.
> >
> > I also
tend to cord front tires on the outside edges. If you buy Khumos,
> >
get them shaved. They shave off the fat outside shoulder so the tire
>
wears
> > better. If unshaved, they can chunk badly.
>
>
> > I am getting in on the group buy for sway bars in hopes that
will cure
> the
> > understeer and save my tires.
> > If
the bars don't work, I'll try 900 lb springs up front. I have 550 up
>
> there now.
> >
> > Rich/94 VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:09:07
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Sway bars
Our group buy on sway bars has gone south, but another
shop stepped up to
offer bars at a good price. Here's the
deal:
<fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>The
group buy is off, because I
am running a sale on them at cheaper prices.
Group buys never seem to
produce unfortunately. Sale is first pay, first to
receive, and ends on
January 31.
For the TT's it is $165 for one- $15
shipping in US, $310 for both- $22
shipping US
For the NA it is $165
for one- $15 shipping in US, $300 for both- $22
shipping US Thanks,
Steve
You can reach Steve at
Performance3SX@aol.comI am
buying two bars.
Rich/slow old poop
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:37:19
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
Okay, my turn to weigh
in, Dean.
Rich neglects to mention his corner heights. For whatever
reason, his
Ground Control setup left him with the rear end of the car jacked
up high.
I lower the car about 1/2" to 3/4" from stack for the track. I
adjust my
Ground Control setup to have equal height in the front and rear,
even though
with the stock springs, rear height is about 1/2" higher in the
rear. It's
possible that all the extra weight on the front of Rich's
car contributes to
the shoulder chunking on his tires, but it could just be
the way Rich
drives, he turns in aggressively like the old Ralley driver he
is.
Like Jim, I run A032R's and have had no shoulder chunking and even
tread
wear. Only recently have I had some problems cording the tires,
but they
were uniformly corded (or melted). I run 40 psi in the front
and 38 psi in
the rear COLD, and only adjust thenm if necessary on Day 2 when
cold again.
Have a pyrometer but haven't made the measurements. Last
event I lowered
the fronts to 38 psi to see if I would improve front right
tire wear, but
didn't see any difference. I think the problem I was having
was a botched
alignment job. I can see dropping the pressure a couple
of pounds in the
rain to increase contact patch, but never have - the tires
run colder
anyhow.
I run at the stock spec limit of most negative
camber in the front and rear.
I believe that when I lower the car for the
track, that makes more negative
camber, and I think that is a good thing for
maintining the contact patch on
a road course.
When GC first sent our
Eibach springs, the rear springs were about 2" too
short. They replaced
the rear springs with springs of the proper height,
but the special GC stock
number doesn't indicate their stiffness. Now I
have:
> Front
> "35/98"
> "0600.250.0550"
> 3.5" OD, 2.5" ID, 5 7/8" tall
(150 mm)
>
> Rear
> "15/39"
> "GC230.64.55"
>
3.5" OD, 2.5" ID, 9.5" tall (240 mm)
Jeff Lucius was thinking these are
230 lb springs, but I'm Only GC knows for
sure, unless I want to pay to have
someone test them.
Stock spring rates are in the Service manual and also
on Jeff's website, I
believe.
Chuck Willis
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Dean Benz [SMTP:dbenz@usa.net]
> Sent:
Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:03 PM
> To: Jim Berry; Merritt
> Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
>
>
Dean Benz
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: 17 Jan 2002 07:46:48
PST
From: Dean Benz <
dbenz@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?]
I agree that they are very good
guidelines based on solid phisics, but IMHO,
they are to simplistic, and do
not take into account the rest of a very
complex system, and can be very
confusing to a newbie. How can all of these
things possibly have the same
affects? Well, in reality, they don't exactly.
They change something that may
result in that affect, but ther is no
"understeer" adjustment on a
suspension.
They work very well on a car that is already fairly well
balanced, where a 1/2
pound of air or 25-50 lbs of spring will actually make
a difference.
They do not work as well on tires that are 10 pounds under
or over inflated,
or when you are talking about making 50-70% changes in
spring rates.
They also don't necesarily address the problem. If my car
understeers, and the
problem is that I have to much body roll that is rolling
my insufficiently
cambered front wheels so they have a smaller contact patch,
bigger rear sway
bars is not going to resolve the issue!
These "rules"
are part of the reason that some people find that their fairly
well balanced
slight understeering factory suspension actually turns faster
lap times than
the $1500 set of coil overs they just put on.
Once you have a fairly well
balanced platform to start with, then yes, they
apply almost universally when
applied in moderation.
Dean
Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
wrote:
> Ahh..those are fairly universal rules..the only deviance would
possibly be
> with the rear steering, but it wouldnt be a huge
difference.
>
> That chart deals with basic physics of weight
transfer..Id not discount it
> so quickly.
>
> On Thu, 17 Jan
2002, Merritt wrote:
>
> > >
> > >I'm not
claiming to be an expert, just a fellow frustrated with the laws
of
>
> >physics weekend warrior trying to figure it all out.
> >
> > Me too.
> >
> > >The Trans Am guy was
probably right to suggest sway bars. If stiffer
springs
> >
>fixed everything, we would all be driving 3800 pound
suspensionless
carts
> > >around the track. Ouch...
> >
> > I am happy to hear you say that. I am not too crazy about that
table. It
> > probably works great for RWD cars, but nothing seems to
apply to AWD cars.
> >
> > Rich/slow old poop
>
> ---
> Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:53:37
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Track alignment and corner heights TT?
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Willis, Charles E. <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
>
Okay, my turn to weigh in, Dean.
>
> Rich neglects to mention his
corner heights. For whatever reason, his
> Ground Control setup left
him with the rear end of the car jacked up high.
> I lower the car about
1/2" to 3/4" from stack for the track.
Lowering the car 1" should cause
a bunch of toe in --- you didn't say if you
adjust that out, if not that
could cause handling/wear
problems.
============================================
>
Ground Control setup to have equal height in the front and reareven
though
> with the stock springs, rear height is about 1/2" higher in the
rear. It's
> possible that all the extra weight on the front of
Rich's car contributes to
> the shoulder chunking on his tires,
You're a hard man to convince about weight transfer --- static weight
transfer
can be done at the corners with ride height and will affect one
front and the
opposit rear but not both front. Otherwise in order to affect
weight you have
to move mass around. Dynamic weight transfer is caused by the
center of
gravity being above the road surface --- CG at the road surface is
a good thing
for handling but it's tough to flatten the driver and still have
him
responsive.
==================================================
Jim Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:39:24
-0800
From: Michael Gerhard <
gerhard1@llnl.gov>
Subject: Team3S:
Pressure Bleeding Brakes Question
I'm going to do a bunch of brake work
this weekend, including replacing the
fluid using a Motive Products power
bleeder.
The service manual says to run the engine while bleeding the
brakes. I'm
thinking that is related to having ABS.
My question is:
Do you still run the engine when using a pressure bleeder
system like the
Motive Products power bleeder?
Any thoughts on this will be much
appreciated.
Next week I should be able to post on how the power bleeder
performed. My
other brake work is replacing the front rotors, pads all
around, and
replacing all the flexible brake lines with stainless steel
braided lines.
Should be a fun Saturday.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------
Michael A.
Gerhard 1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 Pearl
White
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:04:31
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track alignment and corner heights TT?
[Willis, Charles
E.] nope just toe in according to spec
> Lowering the car 1"
should cause a bunch of toe in --- you didn't say if
> you
> adjust
that out, if not that could cause handling/wear problems.
>
============================================
>
> > Ground
Control setup to have equal height in the front and reareven
>
though
> > with the stock springs, rear height is about 1/2" higher in
the rear.
> It's
> > possible that all the extra weight on the
front of Rich's car
> contributes to
> > the shoulder chunking on
his tires,
>
> You're a hard man to convince about weight transfer
--- static weight
> transfer
> can be done at the corners with ride
height and will affect one front and
> the
> opposit rear but not
both front. Otherwise in order to affect weight you
> have
> to move
mass around. Dynamic weight transfer is caused by the center of
> gravity
being above the road surface --- CG at the road surface is a good
>
thing
> for handling but it's tough to flatten the driver and still have
him
> responsive.
>
==================================================
>
> Jim Berry
[Willis,
Charles E.] Yeah, I'm extremely thick headed when it comes
to
this. Ride height does change the vertical CG with respect to the
road.
Certainly the center of mass of the car does not change
without
moving mass, but the component of force exerted on each corner DOES
change
with corner heights. That how the method of determining vertical
CG works
by measuring corner weights level and then jscking up the rear and
measuring
the change in corner weights. There was a nice link to this
once upon a
time. The tires don't really care about where the CG is,
they only care how
much force (weight) is being exerted on them at any given
time. Jack the
front end up and the rear wheels will be carrying more
weight when neutral.
Jack up the rear and the front wheels will be carrying
more weight even when
you haven't hit the brakes. Jack up the rear end
and the CG with respect to
the road will be higher yeilding more potential
energy to shift to the front
wheels when you hit the brakes.
I'm
sorry, I just can't understand it working any other way. My son
has a
nice book on suspension, but he ain't around to share it these
days.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:14:56
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Pressure Bleeding Brakes Question
>
>My question is:
Do you still run the engine when using a pressure bleeder
>system like
the Motive Products power bleeder?
I don't recall anyone ever reporting
using a power bleeder on our cars, so
you are probably breaking new ground.
We have to bleed our brakes very
often trackside, so us racers are waiting
with bated breath to see how it
performs for you.
>
>Any thoughts
on this will be much appreciated.
If you know to run the engine during
bleeding, then you probably already
know there is a correct sequence for
bleeding the brakes.
When I do a total fluid replacement, we go through
the bleeding sequence
twice. The first is simply to purge all the old fluid
from all the lines by
bleeding all four corners, and replacing it with fresh
fluid as we go.
After that, we repeat the bleeding procedure to bleed
everything properly.
Sounds like you know what you are doing. Therefore,
this next one might
seem silly to you. But if it's your first time into the
brakes on this car,
the rotors might be frozen onto the hubs. Once you take
the caliper off,
there's nothing holding the rotor on except corrosion, dirt
and muck.
Nevertheless, people have reported great difficulty getting rotors
off. You
might want to make sure you have a torch and a Harley tool (big
hammer)
handy, just in case. You can also screw bolts into the tapped holes
on the
rotor to push it off. You might want to make a test run before
Saturday --
i.e., jack up the front end, take off the wheels, and see if the
rotors are
loose on the hub. If so, no problem. If not, find a big hammer, go
buy the
rotor push bolts, or pay somebody like Midas to loosen them up for
you..
You don't want to spend an entire day trying to get rotors off.
>. My
>other brake work is replacing the front rotors, pads
all around, and
>replacing all the flexible brake lines with stainless
steel braided lines.
>Should be a fun Saturday.
You didn't mention
brake fluid. The best, of course, is Motul 600. Second
best, if you are not
planning to run open track events, is Ford High
Performance brake fluid,
available at yer friendly Ford dealer for a
pittance. It's a good fluid, but
it does break down under repeated high
temperature use at tracks (all you
gotta do, though, is bleed it after you
cook it). It's fine for the street,
autocrossing, and spirited high speed
driving.
If you are planning to
open track the car sometime in the future, this
might be a good time to take
off the dust shields.
Rich/slow old poop>
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:50:12
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Pressure Bleeding Brakes Question
Michael,
I would
recommend running the engine like the manual says for bleeding
brakes.
This gets the ABS brain to activate and open and close the
ABS
channels. There is also an order in which you are supposed to bleed
(I
believe it is rear left, front left, rear right, front right) as it
ends
with the corner closest to the ABS brain. I think I have that in
the
right order. If the car is off I don't think the ABS activates and
a
little fluid will still stay in there. It can't be more than
a
tablespoon but it is the theory of it I guess. With 2 quarts of
good
fluid and one tablespoon of bad I don't see a difference if you
can't
start the car but it will give you that peace of mind.
Be sure
to check my page for some info (I need to augment it with more
data) at
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg/cars/brakes/BigReds_install.htmlwhere
I have some close-ups of the clips and areas for the SS
line
changes.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
Quite handy at brake bleeding
anymore
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Gerhard
Sent:
Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:39
I'm going to do a bunch of brake
work this weekend, including replacing
the
fluid using a Motive Products
power bleeder.
The service manual says to run the engine while bleeding
the brakes. I'm
thinking that is related to having ABS.
My
question is: Do you still run the engine when using a pressure
bleeder
system like the Motive Products power bleeder?
Any thoughts on this
will be much appreciated.
Next week I should be able to post on how the
power bleeder performed.
My
other brake work is replacing the front
rotors, pads all around, and
replacing all the flexible brake lines with
stainless steel braided
lines.
Should be a fun Saturday.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
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