Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Sunday, January 6 2002    Volume 01 : Number 718

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:51:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A/F Gauge Sensor

Erik,

There is no problem I am aware of (datalogs before and after
installation) or have experienced using the Split Second ARM1 (A/F
monitor) and tapping into the wires right at the ECM connectors (I
have two ARM1's, one for each O2) - be sure to also use ECM power and
ground.

I don't see a reason to go to the extra trouble of installing
additional O2 sensors, unless of course they would be wideband lamda
sensors. These would offer a real advantage over the stock narrowband
sensors. Also, if the pre-cats are in place, they will ruin the
oxygen signal in the downpipe for determining A/F. The "downstream"
O2 sensors in newer cars are there to check on pre-cat performance
and they display a signal with both greatly reduced amplitude and
longer wavelength than the "upstream" O2 sensors before the precats.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- --- "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com> wrote:
> a.k.a. oxygen sensor :)
>
> I'm contemplating adding an O2 sensor to my car to monitor the A/F
> with an
> aftermarket gauge. Any reasons not to do this?
>
>
> My car has 2 O2 sensors stock, right after the turbos, but before
> the
> precats. I noticed that my Stillen downpipe has 2 extra bungs
> welded in for
> the cars that have 4 O2 sensors - they're plugged now. Each unused
> bung on
> my car is about 8"-12" downstream of the stock O2 sensor. Any
> reason not to
> use the extra bungs to put a sensor for the gauge? Will the
> additional
> 8-12" make a significant difference (delay) in the reading of the
> gauge?
>
> Then I don't have to worry about capacitive/inductive loads or
> impedance
> matching while tapping the stock sensor lines for the gauge, and
> then I KNOW
> I have a good O2 sensor for my gauge.
>
> BTW, the gauge will not (for now) be used for AFC tuning or any
> other
> detailed tuning if that makes a difference - I just want something
> to (in
> addition to EGT) tell me if I'm taxing the stock fuel system
> running
> 12-16psi of boost with water injection (>100% intercooling
> efficiency,
> increased vol. efficiency, etc.)
>
> --Erik
> '95 VR-4

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:53:09 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Team3S: Plugs ... IGNITION !!!

After reading (some of) this thread I see only people are discussing what
plug to take, heat range, copper or platinum. But this is the wrong point to
start with !!

After lots of investigations, recorded datalogs, recorded ignition signals
from the stock amplifiers and the measured signals at the coils, we can say
that our ignition is weak... point !

But the stock ignition consits of several parts, shown in the right
direction from where the command "ignite" comes :

- - ECU
- - ignition driver
- - ignition amplifier (FET transistors, 3, one for each coil)
- - coils
- - plug wires
- - plugs

Now you speak about the last point and forget the rest ! Better check what
is weak in our system and why :

- - ECU (program could be different, but no weakness)
- - ignition driver (just a switch, no problem)
- - ignition amplifier (limitation in drawing enough current for the coils,
weak point #1)
- - coils (not well saturated and weak after some years, also medium voltage
output, weak point #2)
- - plug wires (getting weak over the years, but not really a weak point but
numbered as #3)
- - plugs ... (no weak point but numbered as #4)

So we should be able to eliminate #1 and #2 and everything is fine. Let's
see :

The Ignition amplifier can be replaced/tuned by any aftermarket system like
Crane, MSD (DIS-4), HKS TwinPower, B&M NewVolt and others. There are
differences in the systems (CDI, digital, etc.) but all should do better
than the stock FET transistors. Be aware of somethign liek Boost-a-spark or
NewVolt as those guys do increase the voltage to the transistors (16-20V) as
this should saturize the coils faster and higher. But there is a danger for
the transistors as well as the coils do not like this (they get hotter than
normal). There is no damage report so the problems are theoretically ... as
the gains are too. In fact, there is no gain with only installing an
ignition amplifier at all. Some may feel a gain after installing an
amplifier but this is often before the ECU has relearnt due to unplugging
the battery. Normally earlier ignition problems that may have been cured
with the amplifier come back after a few days.

The coils are not an easy task but the latest that has been found are the
Acell motorcycle coils. They are much bigger in size including the ferrite
internals as well as the windings of the coil compared to the stock ones.
Theoretically they should work with the stock amplifiers but their inductive
resistance is bigger and therefore draw more current through the stock
transistors. Again, they seem to be in danger as they are not runnign in
their specs anymore. Also the voltage and current to be delivered to the
coisl is not enough to get them full into saturation and therefore misses at
high rpm are possible. Please note, I don't know of anyone who has them
installed on the stock inductive discharge system so there are no hard facts
around.

The plug wires are no problem at all. But what if there are larger coils
that can produce more discharge energy than the stock coils ? Therefore
always use those wires that fit to the coils installed.

The current known well working solution for a good ignition (besides of a
standalone TEC System) is the combination of #1, #2 and #3. Here a solutuon
that WORK :
#1 : MSD DIS-4 (with tach adapters)
#2 : Accell Motorcycle coils (3 of them)
#3 : Accell Plug Wires (they come with the coils, but do not have the nice
boots for our plugs)
       or any other high performance plug wires that can be adapted to the
Accell coils
       (plugs and boots are included with the coils)

This eliminates the weakest hardware parts on our cars, the amplifier is
able to deliver enough energy to the large coils that are getting saturated
well enough to produce the qucik high voltage peak for the plug.

Now the plugs. The best known for capacitive discharge systems are coppers.
But in fact there is again a coil in between that finaly changes the
capacitive system back into an inductive one. As the coil got saturated and
when the polarity changes at the primary winding it creates a high inductive
voltage at the secondary output-winding. Currently it looks like the system
works very well with stock platinum plugs gapped around 0.041-0.044. Others
are running Iridiums one range colder with the same results (but not bad as
the rest of the ignition system is ok now). Again others are running coppers
one range colder or same heat range.

I myself have the stock plugs installed with this setup. But I'll probably
go one range colder just for safety and as I'm not in love with my intake
manifold I like the platinums.

So, we now have eliminated the weak parts in the ignition-chain and see that
probably the plug is no more worth a real discussion :)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:18:36 EST
From: Luckyslug@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Basic 3000GT problems

Has anyone had a problem with their windshild washer light? Mine came on one day
and after about a week i added fluid and it still stays on. Ive since drained the fluid and
refilled it just to have nothing happen. Any clues as to fixing it? I was wondering if a
sensor was going bad...

Also...has anyone figured out what the common steering wheel stereo controls and
light problem is?

Maybe about why my ECS goes crazy sometimes giving me a flashing and mostly
flickering light show....or just plain doesnt work at all? I completely checked the wiring
and everything seems perfect. weird....

Or maybe what the hell could be rattling that sounds like its coming from the back
right side of the car?

and not that i care, but i also have the battery gauge turn single.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:36:46 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Basic 3000GT problems

Wow. Who wants to tackle these? I'll have first go at a few.

> Has anyone had a problem with their windshild washer light?
> Mine came on one day and after about a week i added fluid and
> it still stays on. Ive since drained the fluid and refilled it
> just to have nothing happen. Any clues as to fixing it? I was
> wondering if a sensor was going bad...

Don't forget to check the rear window washer tank. I think there is a
sensor in both to notify you when your washer fluid is low. I don't
think either is a float system (like gas tanks) but is an electrical
sensor at the bottom of the tank. Empty it and take a peek inside.
When I bought mine they replaced this tank so I've had no problem with
it but don't know if they replaced it because it is a common thing to
wear out when road salt starts eating the things around it.

> Also...has anyone figured out what the common steering wheel
> stereo controls and light problem is?

What's the question here? On occasion I have seen the lights on the
steering wheel stereo buttons flicker when I turn a corner. I think it
was diagnosed as just some dirty contacts but since I am rarely hitting
the Volume Up/Down buttons while turning a corner I didn't worry about
it. After a while it fixed itself but it comes and goes. Just another
"undocumented feature" you get with the car like the goose honk.

> Or maybe what the hell could be rattling that sounds like
> its coming from the back right side of the car?

I am MOST curious about this as well. I have a definite squeak (not a
rattle) in the back right of my car. It is most prevalent in the cold
and I can't seem to pin-point what it is. I unhooked the cargo cover
and that was not it. I removed it. Still squeaks. It sounds like it
is where the rear seatback meets the car and the vinyl/pleather is
rubbing against plastic or more vinyl. I also have compounded this by
having the rollbar rub against the edge of the rear speaker holes in the
vinyl side panels. I put some towels between this area that rubbed and
thought I still heard it. Anyone else have this sound? Mind is inside
and not an outside sound. Maybe that is different than the one in
question here.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with Blizzaks all around

- -----Original Message-----
From: Luckyslug@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 16:19

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:53:06 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Plugs ... IGNITION !!!

> After reading (some of) this thread I see only people
> are discussing what plug to take, heat range, copper
> or platinum. But this is the wrong point to start with !!

I disagree, I think the plug temperature is more important than the parts
before it - at least for preventing preignition. It is the only thing that
physically resides in the cylinder and if it is too hot of a plug it can
cause preignition by providing a hotspot in the cylinder from which
undesired early ignition can start from.

> After lots of investigations, recorded datalogs, recorded
> ignition signals from the stock amplifiers and the measured
> signals at the coils, we can say that our ignition is
> weak... point !

Yes, the ignition system is weaker than it could be. No disagreement there.

> Now you speak about the last point and forget the rest !
> Better check what is weak in our system and why :

I haven't forgotten about the rest, but I feel the plug temperature is one
of the more important factors which many people seem to have forgotten. You
can wreck a motor in a very short time by running plugs that are too hot -
that's a fact which shouldn't be ignored.

> So, we now have eliminated the weak parts in the ignition-chain
> and see that probably the plug is no more worth a real
> discussion :)

All the things you discussed would solve misfire problems. The plugs
themselves may be able to reduce improper (early) ignition events. I can
live with misfires, but not detonated pistons. None of the ignition
modifications you mentioned has anything to do with what actually happens
inside the cylinder - they just make sure that a hot enough spark is
generated at the right time.

Do you understand why plugs come in different temperature ranges?

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:51:19 -0800
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Plugs ... IGNITION !!!

What happens during the long term use of cooler plugs --- for normal
daily operation a cooler plug is operating below it's optimum
temperature range. It's in its proper range only during race or WOT
conditions --- will it foul easier and faster ???

Is it useful in a daily driver ???

        Jim Berry
================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jannusch, Matt <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To: 'Roger Gerl' <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>; 'Team 3S' <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>

> > After reading (some of) this thread I see only people
> > are discussing what plug to take, heat range, copper
> > or platinum. But this is the wrong point to start with !!
>
> I disagree, I think the plug temperature is more important than the parts
> before it - at least for preventing preignition. It is the only thing that
> physically resides in the cylinder and if it is too hot of a plug it can
> cause preignition by providing a hotspot in the cylinder from which
> undesired early ignition can start from.
>
> > After lots of investigations, recorded datalogs, recorded
> > ignition signals from the stock amplifiers and the measured
> > signals at the coils, we can say that our ignition is
> > weak... point !
>
> Yes, the ignition system is weaker than it could be. No disagreement there.
>
> > Now you speak about the last point and forget the rest !
> > Better check what is weak in our system and why :
>
> I haven't forgotten about the rest, but I feel the plug temperature is one
> of the more important factors which many people seem to have forgotten. You
> can wreck a motor in a very short time by running plugs that are too hot -
> that's a fact which shouldn't be ignored.
>
> > So, we now have eliminated the weak parts in the ignition-chain
> > and see that probably the plug is no more worth a real
> > discussion :)
>
> All the things you discussed would solve misfire problems. The plugs
> themselves may be able to reduce improper (early) ignition events. I can
> live with misfires, but not detonated pistons. None of the ignition
> modifications you mentioned has anything to do with what actually happens
> inside the cylinder - they just make sure that a hot enough spark is
> generated at the right time.
>
> Do you understand why plugs come in different temperature ranges?
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 19:13:08 EST
From: NETM1NDER@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: 3/s 2002 Gathering

I see that there is a few people that are going, that live in Pottstown, PA &
the surrounding area if you are one of them maybe we can fallow each other?

   Chris 95VR4 (tecperformance.com)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:14:06 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Plugs ... IGNITION !!!

> What happens during the long term use of cooler plugs
> --- for normal daily operation a cooler plug is
> operating below it's optimum temperature range. It's
> in its proper range only during race or WOT conditions
> --- will it foul easier and faster ???

The risk of plug fouling will be higher the colder plug range you go. It
had absolutely no effect going one range cooler in my daily-driven Eclipse
GSX. I'll let you know how it goes on my 3000GT. Essentially the
"self-cleaning" temperature will be raised, but even on daily driven cars
going one range colder shouldn't cause fouling problems.

You probably want to put the pedal to the floor once in a while, but I
assume that's the reason why we all bought these cars in the first place.
;-)

> Is it useful in a daily driver ???

If you've increased your boost it might give some extra insurance to run one
range colder. It may* allow you to run a little more boost on pump gas, but
you'd need to use a datalogger to figure out if that's actually the case.

On my Eclipse it let me run another 2 psi of boost on regular ol' pump gas
without excessive knock (went from 17 psi to 19 psi).

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:20:39 -0800
From: "Greg Gonzales" <greggonzo1@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: water injection

For those that have water injection are you running different plugs than the
platniums?
I have read that since they do not burn as hot I can not use water
injection. Do I resolve this issue by gapping my plugs to a smaller gap?

Thanks
Greg Gonzales
92 RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 14:49:57 +1000
From: Michael Korsinczky <m.korsinczky@mailbox.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Team3S: parts required

Hi guys

I need a left front lower control arm, computer, gear stick cover and
starter motor for my 1991 twin turbo 3000GT.

If anyone can help I need these ASAP.

They will need to be sent to Brisbane, Australia so could you please
quote me prices that include freight.

Thanks in advance.

Michael

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 01:16:52 -0700
From: "Derek Costen" <heatongoal@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: general wondering?

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>I am really chocked with all the import car mags (sport compact car, turbo, import tuner etc.)</DIV>
<DIV>why does the stealth get no respect at all.  I have never ever seen a stealth in thopse mags, to be honest i dont think i have ever seen a stealth in any mag.  All of its competition is in there (supra, 300zx, RX7) another thing is why dont they make any aftermarket body kits, clear tail lights etc?  If anyone knows wat mag or where u can get these kind of aftermarket stuff please let me know!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanx derek</DIV>
<DIV>94 Stealth TT</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag1_etl_EN.asp'>Click Here</a><br></html>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 02:53:40 -0600
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: general wondering?

I was wondering along the same lines before - my only explanations would be
that there haven't been too many stealths or vr4s that have dipped into the
9s on the 1/4 mile, while the rx7s and supras have had a few there. As such,
we don't get as much respect as we should. At least not officially. As for
the body kits, that's simple - the 3/Ss look good enough w/o them. ;)

Now I myself have looked around for a body kit (something to accentuate the
lines of the car, not replace them). I've found two good sources - one is
the team3s website. There's a listing of a couple of places for body kits
(including a link to veilside which has several bodykits for us). Another
good one is the Dynamic Racing website (www.dynamicracing.com). They have
some kits on there as well including a CF hood for a second gen 3kgt (dunno
about stealth)

    Alex

'95 VR4
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Costen" <heatongoal@hotmail.com>
To: <TEAM3S@STEALTH-3000GT.ST>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 2:16 AM
Subject: Team3S: general wondering?

> I am really chocked with all the import car mags (sport compact car,
turbo, import tuner etc.)
> why does the stealth get no respect at all. I have never ever seen a
stealth in thopse mags, to be honest i dont think i have ever seen a stealth
in any mag. All of its competition is in there (supra, 300zx, RX7) another
thing is why dont they make any aftermarket body kits, clear tail lights
etc? If anyone knows wat mag or where u can get these kind of aftermarket
stuff please let me know!
>
> Thanx derek
> 94 Stealth TT
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
> *** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:47:23 +0100
From: "Roger Gerl" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Team3S: 92'Dodge Stealth TwinTurbo for sale / advice needed

Friends,

I've got an email from Bridgett in California today and she seems in trouble
with the 92'Stealth R/T of her nephew. She tries to get rid of the car due
to financial problems and is asking some questions. As I'm not of much help
for her here in Europe I guess some of you can help her in giving good
advices for the local selling situation in California.

Please send her an email at BOK5033@aol.com with some good ideas that may
help her.

Thanks in advance
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

- ----- Original Message -----
From: BOK5033@aol.com
To: roger.gerl@bluewin.ch
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Advice?

Hi,
    I don't know if you give advice. I'm a 47 yr old single woman with a 23
yr old nephew who bought a 1992 Dodge Stealth 2 yrs ago. It's hardly ever
run. He lost his job, his girlfriend left him, & the car stopped running.
Oh, it's an RT 2 door Coupe, 3.0 liter, V6, Twinturbo.

    Last week, I got it towed to a guy I had recommended to me as very
honest & reliable. He checked it out & basically said it needs a new engine
& even then, who knows. Supposedly, "a rod is knocking". Per my nephew,
this is the lower engine block part. Not too long ago, he got a "newly built
upper end head". Other info: turbos are in "excellent condition", it's got
105,000 miles on it, "top model--AM/FM/CD, leather, 5 speed, AC, auto
windows/locks/driver seat, 17" aluminum alloy wheels, rear spoiler. It's
kind of a medium "brilliant" blue----mechanic said it had been painted.
Body looks like it's in good shape. It's a good looking car.

    My question is, how can I best sell this? As a "rebuildable" for about
$500? I feel ill about taking on $10,600 in debt & only getting about $500
for it. I want to put ad in newspaper, but not sure how to advertise it to
get the most I can. I do not want to misrepresent it to anyone. I think my
nephew got taken on this, & I don't want that to happen to anyone else. I
will have to get a $10,600 loan & start making monthly payments which I
really can't afford.

    So, I just wonder if you have any suggestions about what I could get out
of this car & how to advertise it, etc.? And, would you recommend I
advertise it on the web somewhere?

    If I don't hear from you, I will understand you are not in the business
of giving free advice. Just thought I'd ask.

    Thank you.

Bridgett
California

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:37:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: general wondering?

> --- Derek Costen <heatongoal@hotmail.com> wrote:
> to be honest i dont think i have ever seen a stealth in any mag.

I have scanned and posted to my web site (see the Tech Page) 11
magazine articles that feature either or both the Dodge Stealth or
Mitsu 3000GT. I have several more on the shelf waiting to be scanned.
And there are several more I have seen or have copies of that I won't
be scanning. Jeff Mulligan has some articles at his web site
featuring the VR4 Spyder.
http://www.emeraldsearch.com/spyder/literature.htm

Granted, the articles are not popular, but neither are our cars.
Their uniqueness and rarity enhances the appeal of the 3S cars to me.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:21:30 -0800 (PST)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: NOX -- Street legal??

Hi all,

Having a debate on NOX and need an answer.

Is having a NOX system in your car illegal?

Is using NOX on the street illegal??

Be of good cheer in the New Year,
John

=====
Please respond to jczoom@iname.com
'93 TT with Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH 5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #718
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