Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, December 13 2001
Volume 01 : Number
698
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:17:29 -0600
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
altitude
Here is my question.
Being an enquiring mind, I checked the
weather website for Roswell New
Mexico around the time of Matt's great
passes. The barometric pressure was
30.05". That is in the range
of what we usually run here in Wisconsin, at
about 800ft elevation, but we
have alot of humidity that NM doesn't.
So, sure higher altitude means
less air pressure (averaged across a year),
but if DUE TO THE ACTUAL WEATHER
CONDITIONS, the barometer read 30.05" then
that is actually very close to sea
level, or certainly not "3600 feet". I
guarantee that barometer would
not read 30 inches if it kept going higher
and higher, out into
space...
So, is barometric pressure not the end product difference and
the truer
determinant than simple physical height? Barometric pressure
readings are
absolute, not gauge, so rather than giving "static elevation",
wouldn't it
be better to give the weather report (43 F, humidity 45%,
barometer 30.05")
etc? Is that not more closely approximating a
correction to a sort of
"standard temperature and pressure" than a gross
correction to some STATIC
ELEVATION figure?
This is why I dislike
"corrections", "fudge factors", "fantasy/dream wheel
figures" etc. and
like to say what actually HAPPENED, in real life. If one
makes 8+% less
hp/torque, that might also be the critical difference in NOT
BREAKING parts,
or breaking them later than might have happened at sea
level, so if you
correct from reality in our cases, running at altitude with
correction
fudging is actually a pretty big advantage :)
JT
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
(snips)
> Elevation affects turbocharged engines in two ways.
>
First, as Geoff Mohler pointed out, the air is thinner the higher you
> go
above sea level. Air pressure decreases by 0.5 psi
> for every 1000 feet
of elevation.
> For example, at sea level (14.7 psi) and 100ºF air
has an
> average density of 1.1358 g/L.
> At 5500' ASL in Colorado
the air pressure is only
> 12.0 psi and at 100ºF weighs 0.9272
g/L.
> At 18 psi boost at sea level, the air
> is compressed a
factor of (18+14.7)/14.7 or 2.23 and density
> increases to 0.158 lb/CF.
At 18 psi boost (no temp change) at 5500'
> ASL, air is compressed by a
factor of (18+12)/12) or 2.5 and density
> increases to 0.145 lb/CF -
about 8.3% less dense than at sea level
> (and so about 8% less
power).
> From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
> Does
elevation have much impact on turbo engines? Do the same
>
correction factors apply for normally aspirated and forced induction
>
engines? Seems to me that thinner air would make it harder to
>
achieve boost, but pressure is pressure. If a turbo engine
achieves
> 18 psi at sea level and 18 psi at 3600 feet, what's the
difference in
> power?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:52:15
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: altitude
Weather stations report a CORRECTED TO SEA LEVEL air
pressure. Our
stations here in Colorado also say 30" Hg when the REAL
pressure is
actually 24.4" Hg. The corrected number is useless for
determining
true air density. Give the station a call to get the REAL
air
pressure, or just assume 1" Hg (or 0.5 psi) drop for every 1000
feet
elevation increase. Just climb a 14er out here to experience
first
hand the difference in air density. :)
Humidity, BTW, makes the
air slightly less dense so slightly less
power. The water displaces the air
molecules. It is usually the
cooler temps (and so denser air overall) that
cause increase in power
some people notice on cool humid days (not hot humid
days).
Jack, I also dislike corrected track numbers. I run about 14 s in
the
1/4 up hear taking it easy. I thought for sure the car would be
faster
at Norwalk. Nope. Still 14 s taking it easy. Of course my
right IC leaked air
like a sieve (now repaired and still running 14
s). :)
But the reality
is, NA cars have 18% less air mass up here (5500'
ASL) per combustion stroke
than at sea level. They cannot make the
same power. A 300 HP F-body (rated by
the factory at sea level) makes
only about 246 HP up here. Turbo cars rule at
higher altitudes.
Hmmmm, maybe we should race in Death Valley (below sea
level)?
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
To: <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, December 12, 2001 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S:
altitude
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:35:02
-0600
From: "xwing" <
xwing@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
altitude
So that explains it! I didn't know the weather stations
adjust barometric
readings to altitude. I understand.
Still, as
you point out, NORMALLY ASPIRATED cars have less intake
pressure...BUT since
we have turbochargers, which PACK air in, that clearly
allows less
performance LOSS for us. That's why "turbo cars rule at high
altitude"
and why piston engine airplanes with turbo/superchargers do NOT
suffer the
massive performance losses of normally aspirated engines.
Therefore, using
"commonly accepted" correction factors for NA cars on turbo
cars is
FALSE.
With less air pressure on the inlet side, the turbo just spools up
to a
higher rpm range against the thinner air, so with higher turbo rpm CAN
STILL
give almost equal OUTPUT pressure/volumes. A turbo maxxed out
will not
quite be able to rev so high to completely make up the difference,
but if
Matt's car was truly only at 18-22psi on those relatively HUGE turbos
(if
they are as great as advertised), they are no where near their limits,
so
should be well able to make up the difference due to
altitude.
Maybe that's why your car (Jeff L.) did not perform much
different at
Norwalk's lower altitude than at your home high altitude--what
we always
KNEW to be the case, that turbo cars aren't much affected by
altitude, was
demonstrated on the tracks.
JT
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
stealthman92@yahoo.com (snips)
>
Weather stations report a CORRECTED TO SEA LEVEL air pressure. Our
>
stations here in Colorado also say 30" Hg when the REAL pressure is
>
actually 24.4" Hg. The corrected number is useless for determining
> true
air density.
> Humidity makes the air less dense so less
> power.
Water displaces the air molecules. It is the
> cooler temps=denser air
that cause increase in power
> on cool humid days (not hot humid
days).
> Jack, I also dislike corrected track numbers. I run about 14
s in the
> 1/4 up hear taking it easy. I thought for sure the car would
be
> faster at Norwalk. Nope. Still 14 s taking it easy. Of course
my
> right IC leaked air like a sieve (now repaired and still running
14's).
> But the reality is, NA cars have 18% less air mass up here
(5500'
> ASL) per combustion stroke than at sea level. They cannot make
the
> same power. A 300 HP F-body (rated by the factory at sea level)
makes
> only about 246 HP up here. Turbo cars rule at higher
altitudes.
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:33:57
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Drag racing (was Road Racing)
we had five guys at Heartland
Park, and I believe there were double that
number at the Sears Point
adventure. I agree that we don't seem to attract
as much attention as
the drag racers, but I believe it is because there is a
general level of
ignorance about road course events. people aren't aware
that they can
go into the paddock for free at most places and see the cars
up close and
personal, as well as talking to the drivers.
Also, if 4 guys don't
generate interest then we need a DOZEN!!! (be part of
the solution )
(:>)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff VanOrsdal
[SMTP:jeffv@1nce.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:43 AM
>
To: Team3s Tech List
> Cc:
bansheestealth@aol.com> Subject:
RE: Team3S: Drag racing (was Road Racing)
>
> The road racers will
chuckle and be content that their racing is more
> "sophisticated", but 4
guys at a road course don't generate publicity and
> aftermarket interest
like a guy with a mid 10 second drag car will.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:34:10
-0600
From: "Kent Hacker" <
david2002@281.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Stealth headlight change?
I just bought my first stealth (93' Base model)
at auction and I had a
question concerning the headlamps. Can you
install the second
generation headlamps in place of the popup lights, without
much custom
body work? Has anyone else done this? What would be
the easiest way to
go about replacing them?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:40:49
-0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stealth headlight change?
The parts list is fairly
simple.
What you will need:
'94-'99 Parts -
Hood
Headlights
Turn
Signals
Front Bumper Cover
One quick note - the '99 bumper has to be mated
with the '99 turn
signals, or '94-'98 mated with its corresponding
parts. All hoods are
the same '94-'99. The headlights from
'94-'96 are glass encased,
whereas '97-'99 are plastic. The '99
headlights have a different
contour to them, although they are perfectly
interchangeable.
Tools you will need. This is not for the
light of heart. There was A
LOT more work than I ever imagined.
You will need at minimum:
Metric Socket Set
Jigsaw
Dremel (or other
small space cutting tool)
Drill bit set plus Electric Drill (cordless is
ok)
Eye Protection
The key here is that there is a lot of metal that
needs to be removed.
I will mention that I am in the middle of the
conversion, so this is not
completed, but is a good starting point. My
conversion should be done
shortly (am waiting on my bumper cover from
Tallahassee Mitsubishi,
which should conveniently arrive today /
tomorrow).
- -Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Kent Hacker
Sent: Wednesday,
December 12, 2001 4:34 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: Stealth headlight change?
I just bought my first stealth (93'
Base model) at auction and I had a
question concerning the headlamps.
Can you install the second
generation headlamps in place of the popup lights,
without much custom
body work? Has anyone else done this? What
would be the easiest way to
go about replacing them?
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:26:16
-0800 (PST)
From: glenn amy <
glenn_amy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Fuse size for battery relocated in the trunk?
Was a trunk
optional in '95? ;-)
All kidding aside, since we own hatchbacks you
are
moving the battery into the passenger compartment.
That might result
in battery acid spilling on the
passengers in the event of a
crash.
I'd think twice about that.....
Glenn
'93 vr-4
no
trunk
- --- "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com> wrote:
>
So I'm relocating my battery [Optima] to my trunk
> in my '95
VR-4.
> Battery box, tie-down, 1/0 gauge wire, inline fuses,
> and
associated parts
> are all in the plan.
>
> However
I'm not quite sure what amperage fuse to
> use at the battery.
> For
safety reasons, I want a fuse located right at
> the battery in the
trunk,
> so this fuse will have to carry all the current used
> to
drive the starter
> and charge the battery. Any idea what the
current
> draw of our starters is?
> A 200A fuse seems to be the
largest I can find from
> the car-stereo world,
> but is this
enough?
>
> I know some people on the list have relocated
their
> batteries to the
> trunk and pass tech inspections, so what
kind of
> fuse/circuit breaker do you
> use?
>
>
--Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:52:38
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Fuse size for battery relocated in the trunk?
Thats what a
battery box is for.
On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, glenn amy wrote:
> Was
a trunk optional in '95? ;-)
>
> All kidding aside, since we own
hatchbacks you are
> moving the battery into the passenger compartment.
> That might result in battery acid spilling on the
> passengers in
the event of a crash.
>
> I'd think twice about that.....
>
> Glenn
> '93 vr-4
> no trunk
>
> --- "Gross,
Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
wrote:
> > So I'm relocating my battery [Optima] to my trunk
>
> in my '95 VR-4.
> > Battery box, tie-down, 1/0 gauge wire, inline
fuses,
> > and associated parts
> > are all in the plan.
> >
> > However I'm not quite sure what amperage fuse
to
> > use at the battery.
> > For safety reasons, I want a
fuse located right at
> > the battery in the trunk,
> > so
this fuse will have to carry all the current used
> > to drive the
starter
> > and charge the battery. Any idea what the
current
> > draw of our starters is?
> > A 200A fuse seems to
be the largest I can find from
> > the car-stereo world,
> >
but is this enough?
> >
> > I know some people on the list
have relocated their
> > batteries to the
> > trunk and pass
tech inspections, so what kind of
> > fuse/circuit breaker do
you
> > use?
> >
> > --Erik
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:21:35
-0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: altitude
>This is why I dislike "corrections", "fudge
factors", "fantasy/dream wheel
>figures" etc. and like to say what
actually HAPPENED, in real life. If
one
>makes 8+% less
hp/torque, that might also be the critical difference in NOT
>BREAKING
parts, or breaking them later than might have happened at sea
>level, so
if you correct from reality in our cases, running at
altitude
with
>correction fudging is actually a pretty big advantage
:)
>
I totally agree. I was trying to point out that with all the
things that
weren't going right for him in his runs (spark blowout-limited
boost,
altitude, not being able to run at or shift at the higher rpms), that
this
car has 9 second run capabilities if everything stays together.
With his
front diff shredding on him like it did, there may be many more
broken parts
to follow before he ever gets there, but I was being
optomistic. There are
street cars that run 9s, but not many production
vehicles you can do that
with in full 4000lb (w/ driver) trim without
changing gearing, suspension,
and running full slicks. This is serious
stuff. There are many guys who
claim that those turbos aren't even the
best there is for our cars engine
displacement and design. I am sure
about 300lbs can be dropped on that car
without even thinking too
hard.
Sam
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:32:43
-0600
From: "Curt Gendron" <
cgendron@mail.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Stealth headlight change?
Hey Cody,
One quick
correction. Only the 94 headlights are glass on both the Stealth and
3000GT. 95+ cars had the lexan plastic covered
headlights.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org- -----Original
Message-----
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
Date: Wed,
12 Dec 2001 16:40:49 -0600
To: "'Kent Hacker'" <
david2002@281.com>,
"'Team3S'" <
team3s@mail.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stealth headlight change?
> the same '94-'99. The
headlights from '94-'96 are glass encased,
> whereas '97-'99 are
plastic. The '99
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:31:29
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Fuse size for battery relocated in the trunk?
>> That
might result in battery acid spilling ...
> Thats what a battery box
is for.
Actually, that's what a dry cell battery is for. :)
Optima
is one popular brand. The Dyna-Batt is another choice if you
don't need to
use the battery with the engine off. There is no liquid
in these batteries.
Deep-cycle attributes are a bonus.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius6/j6-2-dynabatt.htmOf
course, a box or other restraining device could save your life in
a serious
accident.
I was planning on moving the battery to the rear storage
compartment
until I found the Dyna-Batt in a drag racing magazine
(the
advertisement that is). The small size will allow me to add the
WI
pump and control units in the remaining space vacated by the
full-size
battery. The 13.5-lb weight (vs. ~40 lb for a full-size
battery) is a plus
also. Put two in the rear compartment and save on
both space and weight over
one full-size battery.
The Dyna-Batt mounts in any position, is truely
maintenance free,
contains no liquid or gel, produces no gas, is vibration
proof, and
will not develop a memory. Did I mention it weighs only 13.5
pounds?
http://www.performancedistributors.com/batteries.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
"glenn amy" <
glenn_amy@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Gross,
Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>;
"Team3S List (E-mail)"
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>;
"Starnet 3Si Mailing List (E-mail)"
<
stealth@starnet.net>
Sent:
Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuse size for
battery relocated in the trunk?
Thats what a battery box is
for.
On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, glenn amy wrote:
> Was a trunk
optional in '95? ;-)
>
> All kidding aside, since we own hatchbacks
you are
> moving the battery into the passenger compartment.
> That
might result in battery acid spilling on the
> passengers in the event of
a crash.
>
> I'd think twice about that.....
>
>
Glenn
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:57:17
-0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Fuse size for battery relocated in the trunk?
How would we go
about setting up a group buy on these?
I could use two of them, if we can
get a price break.
Kurt
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff
Lucius [mailto:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:31
AM
To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Fuse size for battery relocated in the trunk?
>> That
might result in battery acid spilling ...
> Thats what a battery box
is for.
Actually, that's what a dry cell battery is for. :)
Optima
is one popular brand. The Dyna-Batt is another choice if you
don't need to
use the battery with the engine off. There is no liquid
in these batteries.
Deep-cycle attributes are a bonus.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius6/j6-2-dynabatt.htmOf
course, a box or other restraining device could save your life in
a serious
accident.
I was planning on moving the battery to the rear storage
compartment
until I found the Dyna-Batt in a drag racing magazine
(the
advertisement that is). The small size will allow me to add the
WI
pump and control units in the remaining space vacated by the
full-size
battery. The 13.5-lb weight (vs. ~40 lb for a full-size
battery) is a plus
also. Put two in the rear compartment and save on
both space and weight over
one full-size battery.
The Dyna-Batt mounts in any position, is truely
maintenance free,
contains no liquid or gel, produces no gas, is vibration
proof, and
will not develop a memory. Did I mention it weighs only 13.5
pounds?
http://www.performancedistributors.com/batteries.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
"glenn amy" <
glenn_amy@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Gross,
Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>;
"Team3S List (E-mail)"
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>;
"Starnet 3Si Mailing List (E-mail)"
<
stealth@starnet.net>
Sent:
Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuse size for
battery relocated in the trunk?
Thats what a battery box is
for.
On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, glenn amy wrote:
> Was a trunk
optional in '95? ;-)
>
> All kidding aside, since we own hatchbacks
you are
> moving the battery into the passenger compartment.
> That
might result in battery acid spilling on the
> passengers in the event of
a crash.
>
> I'd think twice about that.....
>
>
Glenn
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#698
***************************************