Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, November 14 2001 Volume 01 :
Number
673
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:10:09 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
I have indeed set
the cruise "around" 90 mph on a second gen and
modulations faster than that
were done manually with the throttle.
Can't remember if I set it
higher.
However, I believe in the engine bay on the driver's side there
is a
little black box of some thin aluminum sheet bent into a box
shape. Two
bolts hold this on and underneath lies the cruise control
cables. Maybe
the cam is hitting something and this cam can be filed
down or this
something can be moved out of the way. Like if there is a
screw in the
way preventing the cable from going any further. Just a
thought.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with not many roads in SW PA where 90
mph cruise can be set
- -----Original Message-----
From: bill
vp
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 13:24
How would I go about
doing this? The cruise control maxes out at 90
mph.
I've been told
that the 2nd gen cars do not have a cruise control
speed
limiter.
thanks,
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:57:40
-0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
My 96 base manual
says CC works to 124mph.
I can't imagine wanting to set it above 90, just due
to safety and response reasons.
Who are you trying to impress?
Kurt
- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
[mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:10
PM
To: 'Team 3/S List'
Subject: RE: Team3S: raise cruise control speed
limit on 1st gen ?
I have indeed set the cruise "around" 90 mph on a
second gen and
modulations faster than that were done manually with the
throttle.
Can't remember if I set it higher.
However, I believe in the
engine bay on the driver's side there is a
little black box of some thin
aluminum sheet bent into a box shape. Two
bolts hold this on and
underneath lies the cruise control cables. Maybe
the cam is hitting
something and this cam can be filed down or this
something can be moved out
of the way. Like if there is a screw in the
way preventing the cable
from going any further. Just a thought.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
with not many roads in SW PA where 90 mph cruise can be set
-
-----Original Message-----
From: bill vp
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001
13:24
How would I go about doing this? The cruise control
maxes out at 90
mph.
I've been told that the 2nd gen cars do not have a
cruise control speed
limiter.
thanks,
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:05:41
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
Remember,
Kurt. We live in hilly terrains of Pennsylvania and
Washington.
Some people in Texas or Montana need signs 5 miles away
from a turn to warn
them to actually move the steering wheel 5 miles
later. They have those
stretches of road that does not turn for 100
miles and you can see the other
car for so long coming at you that you
feel like you should know them by the
time you pass each other.
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Zobel, Kurt
Sent: Tuesday,
November 13, 2001 15:58
To: 'Team 3/S List'
Subject: RE: Team3S: raise
cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
My 96 base manual says CC works
to 124mph.
I can't imagine wanting to set it above 90, just due to safety
and
response reasons.
Who are you trying to impress?
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:23:55
-0500
From: "bill vp" <
billvp@highstream.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
The manual for
my '91 R/T tt says that it is "set" that the cruise cannot go
over 90
mph. I was just wondering if anyone knew of a way to bypass
that
limiter.
For the person who said that I was trying to impress
someone, that is not
the case at all and I don't know why you would post
something like that.
Sometimes on long travels I would like to cruise above
90.
Bill
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren
Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
To: "'Team
3/S List'" <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 3:10 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: raise cruise control
speed limit on 1st gen ?
> I have indeed set the cruise "around"
90 mph on a second gen and
> modulations faster than that were done
manually with the throttle.
> Can't remember if I set it
higher.
>
> However, I believe in the engine bay on the driver's
side there is a
> little black box of some thin aluminum sheet bent into a
box shape. Two
> bolts hold this on and underneath lies the cruise
control cables. Maybe
> the cam is hitting something and this cam
can be filed down or this
> something can be moved out of the way.
Like if there is a screw in the
> way preventing the cable from going any
further. Just a thought.
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4 with
not many roads in SW PA where 90 mph cruise can be set
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: bill vp
> Sent: Tuesday, November
13, 2001 13:24
>
> How would I go about doing this? The cruise
control maxes out at 90
> mph.
> I've been told that the 2nd gen
cars do not have a cruise control speed
> limiter.
>
thanks,
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:45:54
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
>Sometimes
on long travels I would like to cruise above 90.
>
I agree with Bill.
My car settles into a sweet spot at 90-95 mph, jes'
cruisin' over to Chicago
on I88, a tad below "goose honk" rpm. The speedo
points straight up at 90
mph, indicating (to me) that's what the designers
had in mind as a cruising
speed.
I don't use cruise control, cuz I may need to slam on the binders
if John
Law appears or the radar detector goes off. A quick stab on the Big
Reds,
and it hauls down to 75 in a flash. I also run it up to 120+ when
the
traffic/radar permits (like when you can see for a mile ahead, or if
there
are big trucks way up there, serving as a radar screen). I've driven
the
I80/I88 enough to know where the troopers are likely to hang
out.
Shoot, ultra high speed/autobahn cruising is what our cars
were built for,
eh? That and open tracking, of course.
>For the
person who said that I was trying to impress someone, that is not
>the
case at all and I don't know why you would post something like
that.
Insulting friends seems to be in these
days.
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:52:09
-0500
From: "Michael D. Crose" <
ncsu4me@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Transmission solution?!
I guess it was just a matter of time
before I started having the synchro
problems that most everyone complains of
on our transmissions. I can
hardly get the car back into first
gear after up shifting while the
transmission is still cold and the amount
of time that I must spend between
gear changes or grind the syncro is
increasing.
I know that there have been a few very serious attempts to
get new syncros
made or purchase them from Getrag, is there anything
currently in the works?
I do not know enough about
transmissions or more specifically our
transmission to be able to spearhead
any kind of task such as getting new
parts designed and manufactured, but I
was wondering if the need/desire for
new parts is still there and if anyone
who has the knowledge is or would
consider contributing their time and
effort.
I have been looking to see if there are any transmission swaps
available but
the only cars I can think of that would have a transverse
transaxle are the
Lancer EVO and the Audi TT both of which are lighter and
less powerful.
While searching for alternatives I found a link to a company
in Chicago that
will manufacture custom gear and syncro sets.
http://www.emco-gears.com/index.htmI
am sure this is not a cheap process, but with no new syncros being
produced
I know that we as a community will not be able to continue driving
these
wonderful cars for many years if this problem is not
remedied.
Sincerely,
Michael D. Crose
P.S. Sorry if you have
already gotten this, I recieved two replies from list
members but I never
saw the message on the list.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 15:39:42
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
Even in CA, up near
the border... When we're doing the 11-hr return trip
from PNW 3S
gatherings in Portland, etc., we use the cruise control on max
for 1-2 hrs at
a clip (speedometer says 115). With trucks cruising at 90,
and passing
one another at 100-110, we're just keeping up with traffic. For
one
stretch, if the road is empty, we override the cruise control and run
at
120-130 for an hour or more. But if we're near other cars, we coast
down a
bit - braking at that speed is not fun. Our car is comfortable
at those
speeds (a bit noisy) but we're very watchful about conditions when
we go
that fast. Straight road, no other cars, no wind and we'll do
it--
otherwise, we keep it on cruise control to be safe and
sane...
Forrest
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren
Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
>
Remember, Kurt. We live in hilly terrains of Pennsylvania and
Washington.
Some people in Texas or Montana need signs 5 miles away from a
turn to warn
them to actually move the steering wheel 5 miles later.
They have those
stretches of road that does not turn for 100
miles
and you can see the other car for so long coming at you that you feel
like
you should know them by the time you pass each other.
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of Zobel, Kurt
> Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 15:58
> To: 'Team 3/S List'
> Subject:
RE: Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
>
> My 96
base manual says CC works to 124mph.
> I can't imagine wanting to set it
above 90, just due to safety and
> response reasons.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:22:37
-0600
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <
tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
>Fuel lines. The stock lines were just fine
for the fastest of our
>cars. Not saying larger lines are bad (the extra
insurance is nice),
>but the stock -5 is adequate. The stock lines already
work for us -
>ask Jack T and Matt Monett. Has anybody with larger fuel
lines beat
>the 1/4 mile times of these two who used stock
lines?
>
>Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
-----------------------
Both of those owners have blown engines/pistons
to show for their
setups. Some have blown *more* than one motor
....
Only one has ever run better than 11's - and only on a single
day.
[2 runs total with NOS] And that was some time ago now.(years
ago)
I think most of us would rather learn from inadequate or "risky"
setups that
contributed to blown motors, pistons and unreasonably short
longevity.
I know I would - and have ........
What evidence can
you produce which proves that the tiny stock fuel lines
are proper and
capable of supporting the above setups and others with even
larger
turbos/fuel requirements?
What are the total flow rates for the tiny
stock lines? At what fuel
pressure?
What about the tiny stock line
that connects the front fuel rail to the rear
fuel rail? What is the
flow rate for that particular line under boost?
What
differences in
available fuel exist between the front and rear rail when
using the stock
lines?
Are you willing to pay for the rebuilds resulting from lack of
fuel due to
your
"expert" advice? What guarantee do you
provide?
What has been your personal experience when running high
(20+)
boost, large turbos (17g+), large injectors (600cc+), high flow
pump
and stock fuel lines?
- - tds
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:33:38
-0600
From: "Nemisis" <
nemisis@vci.net>
Subject: Team3S: Has
anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
Hey everyone,
I'm
in process of doing a complete multimedia over haul in my spyder VR-4...
and
I was wondering if any of you had had success putting an aftermarket
changer
where the factory one now sits? I'm planning on a 7" in dash monitor
(w/CD
changer controls) 4 channel amp.. and upgraded speakers all around (+
Bass
shakers). I'm just worried about losing the luxury of a CD changer..
Thanks
for any information... Also.. do any of you have an aftermarket amp
sitting
where the factory amp did?
God bless,
Jon
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:34:20
-0500
From: "Joshua G. Prince" <
joshua@unconundrum.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
I have
kept it mostly in the same place. I had an alpine 6 disk changer
placed
in the cubby but instead of it being around the corner, as soon
as you open
the flap, the cd changer is right there. So it is much
easier to use
and place the cartridge in.
Joshua Prince
97 1/2 Fly Yellow
Hummer Convertible
3SI#0136
Microsoft Certified System Engineer
Joshua@Unconundrum.com -----Original
Message-----
From: Nemisis [mailto:nemisis@vci.net]
Sent: Tuesday,
November 13, 2001 9:34 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Has anyone put a
aftermarket CD changer in a
spyder?
Hey everyone,
I'm in
process of doing a complete multimedia over haul in my spyder
VR-4...
and
I was wondering if any of you had had success putting an aftermarket
changer
where the factory one now sits? I'm planning on a 7" in dash
monitor
(w/CD
changer controls) 4 channel amp.. and upgraded speakers all around
(+
Bass
shakers). I'm just worried about losing the luxury of a
CD
changer..
Thanks for any information... Also.. do any of you have an
aftermarket
amp
sitting where the factory amp did?
God
bless,
Jon
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:50:14
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
You will
lose the use of the steering-wheel mounted radio controls with
anything other
than a stock unit. Anyone who does not knows their way
around the
wiring of a stereo unit and deserves praise.
Pioneer changed the models
of connectors throughout years of production
on the 3000GTs. Mine was
available for a year or so then they had a
different connector. You
might be able to put a new one in but be ready
to search for the right
pin-to-pin connector to make all the items works
correctly.
As far as
I know everyone with aftermarket items has their aftermarket
remote to use,
uses the head unit, or keeps it in stock trim and uses
the steering wheel
controls.
- --Flash! With input from a brother-in-law at Pioneer
1995
VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Joshua G. Prince
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 21:34
I have kept it mostly in the same
place. I had an alpine 6 disk changer
placed in the cubby but instead
of it being around the corner, as soon
as you open the flap, the cd changer
is right there. So it is much
easier to use and place the cartridge
in.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:36:26
-0800
From: Richard <
radanc@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Hate to be a party pooper
here, and admit, that none of these cars has
come close to a 10 second
quarter either. There are many supras already
there and I mean many. We
all get a bit stuck with dogmatic views and
could all learn from the pros who
drag for a living. I personally agree
with Todd S. and definitely intend
upgrading fuel line with a complete
fuel system upgrade. I believe Matt J.
was thinking along these lines as
well. I hope I am not misquoting you Matt
J. By the way I don't think
Matt M would agree with stock line either as a
holy grail since he has
high and low tech projects. He has -6 on his other
car. The only
pushback on upgrade to fuel line from experienced tuners etc.
has been
on the return line which isn't as critical.
Rich
"Todd
D.Shelton" wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt
engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
>
> >Fuel lines. The
stock lines were just fine for the fastest of our
> >cars. Not saying
larger lines are bad (the extra insurance is nice),
> >but the stock -5
is adequate. The stock lines already work for us -
> >ask Jack T and
Matt Monett. Has anybody with larger fuel lines beat
> >the 1/4 mile
times of these two who used stock lines?
> >
> >Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
-----------------------
>
> Both of those owners have blown
engines/pistons to show for their
> setups. Some have blown *more*
than one motor ....
>
> Only one has ever run better than 11's -
and only on a single day.
> [2 runs total with NOS] And that was some time
ago now.(years ago)
>
> I think most of us would rather learn from
inadequate or "risky" setups that
> contributed to blown motors, pistons
and unreasonably short longevity.
>
> I know I would - and have
........
>
> What evidence can you produce which proves that the
tiny stock fuel lines
> are proper and capable of supporting the above
setups and others with even
> larger turbos/fuel requirements?
>
> What are the total flow rates for the tiny stock lines? At what
fuel
> pressure?
> What about the tiny stock line that connects the
front fuel rail to the rear
> fuel rail? What is the flow rate for
that particular line under boost?
> What
> differences in available
fuel exist between the front and rear rail when
> using the stock
lines?
>
> Are you willing to pay for the rebuilds resulting from
lack of fuel due to
> your
> "expert" advice? What guarantee
do you provide?
>
> What has been your personal experience when
running high (20+)
> boost, large turbos (17g+), large injectors (600cc+),
high flow pump
> and stock fuel lines?
>
> -
tds
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:52:08
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
> You
will lose the use of the steering-wheel mounted
> radio controls with
anything other than a stock
> unit. Anyone who does not knows their
way around
> the wiring of a stereo unit and deserves praise.
These
guys disagree:
http://www.discountcarstereo.com/SWRC.htm-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:03:50
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
> I
personally agree with Todd S. and definitely intend
> upgrading fuel line
with a complete fuel system
> upgrade. I believe Matt J. was thinking
along these
> lines as well. I hope I am not misquoting you Matt
J.
No, you aren't misquoting me... I'm definitely upgrading the
fuel lines on
my car once I get the engine project finished and everything
working with
the stock components back on (ie: breaking in the motor with
stock ECU and
stock sized injectors).
Looking at some of the lines
between the pump and the FPR, I just have to
think that they may be
inadequate for high-flow applications. At a bare
minimum it'll be
easier on the fuel pump if the lines are upgraded. The
loop-through
fuel rail setup seems iffy to me as well. I'd rather branch
the fuel
supply before the rails and recombine it after the rails for the
FPR on the
other side than have it flow through the rails sequentially.
They may be
adequate, but upgraded line should virtually guarantee it. All
the high
HP naturally-aspirated guys I've talked to use #10 line for
600-1000 HP
applications and thought #8 line might be passable. The stock
stuff has
got to be smaller than #8, and has a few restrictive fittings (and
a Banjo
fitting at the fuel filter) to flow through.
Just my opinion, no facts to
back it up...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:08:20
+1300
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
> The car
is equipped with :
> - 3.1l overbored engine
Hi
I think that
the main problem is that when you overbore the engine you
automatically
increase the compression ratio which automatically makes it
more prone to
knock. Maybe thicker headgaskets should be used or lower
compression
pistons.
Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:18:07
+1300
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
> How would
I go about doing this? The cruise control maxes out at 90 mph.
>
I've been told that the 2nd gen cars do not have a cruise control
speed
Hi
Our Japaneese spec GTOs top out the cruise control at 70
MPH so think
yourselves lucky. I would imagine that the designers would have
built the
control unit along the same lines as the speedos.
By that I
mean that the speedos have a number of movable straps in them to
select the
odometer, miles or kilometers, fullscale deflection speed,
180km/h for japan,
180MPH for north america? or 280km/h for europe?
It would be interesting
to open one of the control units to see if that is
the
case.
Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:37:35
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
> I think
that the main problem is that when you overbore the
> engine you
automatically increase the compression ratio
> which automatically makes
it more prone to knock. Maybe
> thicker headgaskets should be used or
lower compression
> pistons.
I worked it out with my new pistons
and off the top of my head the
compression increased to approximately 8.3:1
with the 3.1L pistons. I'd
have to find my notes to get an accurate
number - but yes, it did increase
compression.
Don't forget to run
colder spark plugs on these modified setups!
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:50:46
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Speaking of overbore ---
I'm going to be ordering a set of Ross pistons
with a .050" overbore, I can
also have the pistons designed with almost
any compression ratio I want. I
haven't done the math but 50 over can't
increase the compression more than a
1/10 or so ---- however --- is
there any compelling reason to reduce
the compression from the 8:1
stock
ratio.
Jim
Berry
==============================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
>
> > The car is equipped with :
> > - 3.1l overbored
engine
>
> Hi
>
> I think that the main problem is
that when you overbore the engine you
> automatically increase the
compression ratio which automatically makes it
> more prone to knock.
Maybe thicker headgaskets should be used or lower
> compression
pistons.
>
> Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:16:02
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda
long)
Yes.
1) More engineering overhead.
2) You can run more
timing.
3) Less detonation
4) You can run more boost with the -same-
effective C/Ratio as
before..safer..and yield more HP
For all these
reasons, I dropped the C/R of my celica for roadracing use.
On Tue, 13
Nov 2001, Jim Berry wrote:
> Speaking of overbore --- I'm going to be
ordering a set of Ross pistons
> with a .050" overbore, I can also have
the pistons designed with almost
> any compression ratio I want. I
haven't done the math but 50 over can't
> increase the compression more
than a 1/10 or so ---- however --- is
> there any compelling reason
to reduce the compression from the 8:1
> stock ratio.
>
> Jim Berry
>
==============================================
>
> ----- Original
Message -----
> From: Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
>
>
> > > The car is equipped with :
> > > - 3.1l
overbored engine
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I
think that the main problem is that when you overbore the engine you
>
> automatically increase the compression ratio which automatically makes
it
> > more prone to knock. Maybe thicker headgaskets should be used or
lower
> > compression pistons.
> >
> >
Steve
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:04:39
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
And just how much did you
drop it, he asked, pensively.
I would think the trade-off is loss of off
boost power.
Jim
Berry
======================================
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To:
Jim Berry <
fastmax@home.com>
Cc:
Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>; <
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent: Tuesday,
November 13, 2001 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more
knock !? (kinda long)
> Yes.
>
> 1) More engineering
overhead.
> 2) You can run more timing.
> 3) Less detonation
>
4) You can run more boost with the -same- effective C/Ratio as
>
before..safer..and yield more HP
>
> For all these reasons, I
dropped the C/R of my celica for roadracing use.
>
> On Tue, 13 Nov
2001, Jim Berry wrote:
>
> > Speaking of overbore --- I'm going
to be ordering a set of Ross pistons
> > with a .050" overbore, I can
also have the pistons designed with almost
> > any compression ratio I
want. I haven't done the math but 50 over can't
> > increase the
compression more than a 1/10 or so ---- however --- is
> > there
any compelling reason to reduce the compression from the 8:1
> > stock
ratio.
> >
>
> Jim Berry
> >
==============================================
> >
> > -----
Original Message -----
> > From: Steve Cooper <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
>
> >
> > > > The car is equipped with :
> > >
> - 3.1l overbored engine
> > >
> > > Hi
>
> >
> > > I think that the main problem is that when you
overbore the engine you
> > > automatically increase the compression
ratio which automatically makes it
> > > more prone to knock. Maybe
thicker headgaskets should be used or lower
> > > compression
pistons.
> > >
> > > Steve
> >
>
---
> Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:24:58
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Bout .3 if I
recall.
There is a tradeoff, but I gained that in stroking the motor out
from 2L
to 2.3L and using a timing controller to massively bump up timing
off
boost.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Jim Berry wrote:
> And just
how much did you drop it, he asked, pensively.
>
> I would think
the trade-off is loss of off boost power.
>
> Jim
Berry
--------snip-----------
- ---
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:24:54
+0100
From: "Jim Matthews" <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
Bill
wrote:
>
> I've been told that the 2nd gen cars do not have
a
> cruise control speed limiter.
Cruise will not maintain higher
than 135 mph on my '94.
- - --
Jim Matthews - Munich, Germany
mailto:jim@the-matthews.com (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://www.the-matthews.com***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://www.the-matthews.com/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R v.1
(1.0 bar @ 64% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Super Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Optima Red Top 830 Battery
Redline synth
fluids (trans= MT-90, xfer & diff= SPHvy)
Cryoed rotors, R4S pads,
braided lines, red calipers
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 171
mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno
Session: 367 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:38:57
-0500
From: "bill vp" <
billvp@highstream.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a
spyder?
Matt,
Do you know of anyone that has used these in their 3/S
(confirmed that they
work as said)? So it looks like any stereo company
would be able to install
this, correct? Thanks for the
link.
Bill
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To:
"'Team3S'" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:52 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a
aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
> > You will lose the use of
the steering-wheel mounted
> > radio controls with anything other than
a stock
> > unit. Anyone who does not knows their way
around
> > the wiring of a stereo unit and deserves
praise.
>
> These guys disagree:
>
>
http://www.discountcarstereo.com/SWRC.htm>
>
-Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 01:30:30
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
> Do
you know of anyone that has used these in their 3/S (confirmed
> that they
work as said)? So it looks like any stereo company
> would be able
to install this, correct? Thanks for the link.
I don't personally
have one of their devices, but I recall a few people who
posted on this list
which had them and they worked. I guess you just need
to get an
aftermarket deck that has an infrared remote control and is in
their
supported list of equipment.
In my '94 VR4 I had a Sony ES deck in there
which had a wired remote that I
took apart and combined its encoder chip and
such into the factory steering
wheel control "box", just basically using the
factory switches to trigger
the Sony circuitry and then following the factory
switch wiring harness to
the deck. It worked, but it was a lot of work
for really not that much
gain. The SWRC stuff sounds like a much easier
and more elegant solution.
They have a specific version for the Stealth
(at least different than the
rest of the Dodge product line) so that seems
like they've at least tested
it on one (or realize it's a Mitsu radio).
Stealth/3000GT radio control
systems should be the same (like their part
numbers show).
Most competent stereo installers shouldn't have a problem
installing it. It
looks pretty straightforward.
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:44:20
+0400
From: Andrew Spargo <
spargo@emirates.net.ae>
Subject:
Team3S: Stillen Downpipe
I recently had a Stillen Downpipe fitted to my
1999 (GCC specs) VR4 and after reading about the slight misalignment many on the
list
had mentioned, I would like to confirm the following. The Stillen
Downpipe does not match the position of the original downpipe.
Using a
plum-line and felt pen to mark the chassis, the position of the Original
downpipe was marked and we proceeded to fit the
Stillen (no extra drilling
etc. was required), sure enough it did not line up with the HKS exhaust. Using
the plum-line again on the
Stillen, I can confirm that the Stillen is 2cm to
the left of the original. As we could not bend the Stillen, we had to move the
HKS
to match, the result is (especially on start up) the HKS system now hits
an exhaust mounting bolt. With just the HKS matched to the
original downpipe,
I have never had any knocking sounds. The misalignment is visible by looking at
the mounting rubbers on the first
part of the HKS system, instead of coming
straight down, they are at an angle of about 45 degrees. I therefore agree with
many on
the list, "Stillen" Downpipes require modifying before they fit our
cars properly.
1999 VR4 (GCC specs = Gulf Cooperation Committee) -sorry
Mike Reid, I told you Council.
Like no other specs!!!!!! (I'm still
using "Leaded" petrol !!!)
Andy Spargo
United Arab
Emirates
E-mail
spargo@bigfoot.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:06:21
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
A-hem.
Matt. You did not remember what I said in my post even though
you
included it ... which was, "Anyone who does not [lose functionality
of their
steering wheel radio controls] knows their way around the
wiring of a stereo
unit and deserves praise."
And I believe that you said some people on
here have infrared remotes.
I also said, "As far as I know everyone with
aftermarket items has their
aftermarket remote to use."
Then you
yourself say how you had to take the "brain" out of a remote
and put in the
steering wheel controls. Like I said. This is not
typical
knowledge for most people doing mods on the car so you in fact
deserve
praise. I think the original question was, "What CD player fits
for
aftermarket use?" In a direct install the steering wheel controls
are
lost UNLESS the person knows their wiring knowledge and can figure
it
out.
Yes any competent shop can do it but then again ... a tranny shop
can do
a 5- to 6-speed install for you too ... enough said.
-
--Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 22:52
> You will lose the use of the
steering-wheel mounted
> radio controls with anything other than a
stock
> unit. Anyone who does not knows their way around
> the
wiring of a stereo unit and deserves praise.
These guys
disagree:
http://www.discountcarstereo.com/SWRC.htm***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:43:05
-0000
From: "Baker, Simon" <
Simon.Baker@mobisphere.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
In the Uk
where most of the cars are Jap Import, we have limit on both the
180
kmh top end and the cc , we purchase a chip that allows all speed
related
limits to be changed to MPH not Kmh . allowing you to run over 118
mph and
the cc to work over 90 mph
simon
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Steve Cooper
> Sent: 14 November 2001
04:18
> To: bill vp; Team 3/S List
> Subject: Re: Team3S: raise
cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
>
> > How would I go
about doing this? The cruise control maxes out at 90
> mph.
>
> I've been told that the 2nd gen cars do not have a cruise control
speed
>
> Hi
>
> Our Japaneese spec GTOs top out the
cruise control at 70 MPH so think
> yourselves lucky. I would imagine that
the designers would have built the
> control unit along the same lines as
the speedos.
>
> By that I mean that the speedos have a number of
movable straps in them to
> select the odometer, miles or kilometers,
fullscale deflection speed,
> 180km/h for japan, 180MPH for north america?
or 280km/h for europe?
>
> It would be interesting to open one of
the control units to see if that is
> the case.
>
>
Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:14:18
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
Hi
John/List just get an MP3 player, this plus the new Sony Head Unit is
what I
am putting in probably after Christmas... The one below is what I
am
going to use.....
http://www.ssiamerica.com/products/neo35/index.html>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Nemisis [SMTP:nemisis@vci.net]
>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:34 PM
> To: Team3S
> Subject:
Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
>
>
Hey everyone,
>
> I'm in process of doing a complete multimedia
over haul in my spyder
> VR-4...
> and I was wondering if any of you
had had success putting an aftermarket
> changer where the factory one now
sits? I'm planning on a 7" in dash
> monitor
> (w/CD changer
controls) 4 channel amp.. and upgraded speakers all around
> (+
>
Bass shakers). I'm just worried about losing the luxury of a CD
changer..
> Thanks for any information... Also.. do any of you have an
aftermarket amp
> sitting where the factory amp did?
>
> God
bless,
> Jon
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:34:28
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Yes Ive
noticed that most people are running the stock heat range
(6) in a copper
plug in all honesty on moderate to heavy modded set ups I
would recommend
running the same style platinum plug at least one heat range
cooler (7)
possibly two is running more than 20 PSI (8) If I could find
that
cross-reference chart I had. I could get us a NGK part number for
our
stock plugs just one range cooler (7)
> Don't forget to run
colder spark plugs on these modified setups!
>
> -Matt
> '95
3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:28:53
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Matt, I
personally do not see the advantage to splitting the fuel line to
send it
"sequentially" I think you mean equally :) Anyway if you note
the
firing cycle of any multicyclinder gas powered ICE the injectors
fire in a
pattern not all at once so the injectors will not be starving for
fuel never
mind the fact that the plumbing and all the fittings to build your
set up
are going to add unnecessary bends and "POSSIBLE" restrictions to fuel
flow.
Of course this is all IMHO
We really can not compare our cars to
like Camaros and Mustangs..... We run
much higher fuel pressures than
those cars in on boost situations, they use
bigger lines to counteract for
the lower pressures found we do not need to.
Also interesting bit of info
under moderate-heavy acceleration the fuel pump
is forced to work harder to
move the fuel forward in the line the larger the
line you go (its early and I
can not remember the term for this)
> Looking at some of the lines
between the pump and the FPR, I just have to
> think that they may be
inadequate for high-flow applications. At a bare
> minimum it'll be
easier on the fuel pump if the lines are upgraded. The
>
loop-through fuel rail setup seems iffy to me as well. I'd rather
branch
> the fuel supply before the rails and recombine it after the rails
for the
> FPR on the other side than have it flow through the rails
sequentially.
>
> They may be adequate, but upgraded line should
virtually guarantee it.
> All
> the high HP naturally-aspirated guys
I've talked to use #10 line for
> 600-1000 HP applications and thought #8
line might be passable. The stock
> stuff has got to be smaller than
#8, and has a few restrictive fittings
> (and
> a Banjo fitting at
the fuel filter) to flow through.
>
> Just my opinion, no facts to
back it up...
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:41:28
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: FS: '94 VR4 rims with Yoko R032 race t ires
I
thank my son for picking Volk TE-37's for our track play-time ...
>
but I think it was wheel fatigue from hundreds of .9g turns at the
tracks.
>
> I want to explore getting forged wheels, maybe
Speedline or something, but
> I
> have to decide if I want to take a
chance on 18's again or go to 17's and
> the cushioning effect of the
extra rubber. But I really DID like the
> stability and control with
the low profile and short sidewall. I've got
> to
> make some
calls and check out a few websites. Stay tuned...
Bummer...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:45:53
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
>
A-hem. Matt. You did not remember what I said in my post
>
even though you included it ... which was, "Anyone who does
> not [lose
functionality of their steering wheel radio
> controls] knows their way
around the wiring of a stereo unit
> and deserves praise."
Hooking
a little box to power and ground and plugging the steering wheel
control
wires into it really isn't difficult. Anyone who is installing
their
own head unit should be capable of it. Oh, I guess there's the
running
of the wire for the IR transmitter. I could see how that would make
it
a professional project. ???
> Then you yourself say how you had
to take the "brain" out of
> a remote and put in the steering wheel
controls. Like I
> said. This is not typical knowledge for
most people doing
> mods on the car so you in fact deserve praise.
I think the
> original question was, "What CD player fits for aftermarket
> use?" In a direct install the steering wheel controls are
> lost UNLESS the person knows their wiring knowledge and can
>
figure it out.
I didn't use one of those boxes. If I had, I
wouldn't have had to do
anything to the steering wheel controls or take
anything apart other than
the radio trim ring and remove the four screws that
hold the radio in the
dash. Hacking something together like I did is
the "old school" way to do
it. The device I posted eliminates all that
unhappiness.
> Yes any competent shop can do it but then again ... a
tranny
> shop can do a 5- to 6-speed install for you too ... enough
said.
As usual you've made a mountain out of a molehill.
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:47:44
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Fuel line size (was Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda
long))
Well thank you Todd for considering me an expert, even though I
do
not and never have claimed to be one. :) I know how much you think
of
my knowledge concerning idle fuel line pressure.
Hey guys, I said
"adequate", not ideal. For those not familiar with
the physics, what happens
when lines are too small for the flow - air
or liquid - is that there is an
increase in the pressure drop from
the output end to the input end. In
extreme cases there could even be
heating of the "fluid" caused by friction
against the walls. As long
as the pump can compensate for the pressure drop,
there should not be
a problem. Theoretically of course.
We monitor
for these types of problems using a fuel line pressure
gauge. The injectors
will squirt the correct amount of fuel as long
as the line pressure is
correct. If the pump cannot flow the volume
at the pressure required, then
the line pressure will decrease. When
this is detected (using the line
pressure gauge) then it is time to
either upgrade the pump or increase the
line size or maybe both.
So my question to the proponents of larger fuel
lines is, what fuel
line pressure are you measuring? If you don't know, then
1) you are
living dangerously concerning your engine's safety, and 2) you
don't
know if you need to upgrade or not.
There is nothing wrong at
all with larger lines assuming you have a
pump that can keep them full and
pressurized. Empirical measurements
show that flow (at the same pressure
loss) increases with the 2.5th
power of the ratio of the line diameter. So a
change to -6 lines from
the stock -5 lines would allow 60% more flow at the
same pressure
loss. Going to -8 lines would allow 320% more flow at the
same
pressure loss. A change to -8 lines will also require 2.5 times
the
volume of fuel to fill the lines as would be needed for -5 line
(just
compare the area of the cross section as length is the same). Wow,
a
damn big pump (or two) is needed for those lines!
My personal
experience is that the stock lines and the Denso
195130-1020 fuel pump (AKA
Supra Turbo pump) can maintain the proper
line pressure with 550 cc/min
injectors at 80% IDC (injector duty
cycle). The turbo used is irrelevant. A
complete list of mods for my
car is at my web site.
The ONLY pressure
that is important is the pressure after the last
injector and before the FPR.
All pressure before that point will be
higher - must be for the fuel to flow
toward the last injector. My
pressure sensor is not in this ideal position;
it is right after the
fuel filter (I took the easy way). So my line pressure
will not be
the best information. This is perhaps the best argument for
upgrading
the FPR and start of the return line - to install the pressure
sensor
in the best position.
Perhaps those running 660 or 720
injectors and have a fuel line
pressure gauge will let us know what their
line pressure is at high
IDC. Fuel line pressure should be 1 psi over 43 psi
for very psi of
boost.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <
tds@brightok.net>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
>Fuel lines. The stock lines were just fine
for the fastest of our
>cars. Not saying larger lines are bad (the extra
insurance is nice),
>but the stock -5 is adequate. The stock lines already
work for us -
>ask Jack T and Matt Monett. Has anybody with larger fuel
lines beat
>the 1/4 mile times of these two who used stock
lines?
>
>Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
-----------------------
Both of those owners have blown engines/pistons
to show for their
setups. Some have blown *more* than one motor
....
Only one has ever run better than 11's - and only on a single
day.
[2 runs total with NOS] And that was some time ago now.(years
ago)
I think most of us would rather learn from inadequate or
"risky"
setups that contributed to blown motors, pistons and
unreasonably
short longevity.
I know I would - and have
........
What evidence can you produce which proves that the tiny stock
fuel
lines are proper and capable of supporting the above setups
and
others with even larger turbos/fuel requirements?
What are the
total flow rates for the tiny stock lines? At what fuel
pressure? What
about the tiny stock line that connects the front fuel
rail to the rear fuel
rail? What is the flow rate for that
particular line under boost? What
differences in available fuel exist
between the front and rear rail when
using the stock lines?
Are you willing to pay for the rebuilds resulting
from lack of fuel
due to your "expert" advice? What guarantee do you
provide?
What has been your personal experience when running high
(20+)
boost, large turbos (17g+), large injectors (600cc+), high flow
pump
and stock fuel lines?
- - tds
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:53:54
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
Team3S: Welcome another VR4 owner
Kelly,
I am sending your email
to the folks on these listservers. You will find a
wealth of
information about our cars. Look forward to seeing you at the
Lone Star
Region Porsche Club Driver's Ed event December 1-2 at Texas
World
Speedway!
Also check out the web site
http://www.3si.org/index.htmChuck
Willis
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 06:56:54
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
No true as
far as my 0.050" overbore (3.056L) and resulting ~8.2 CR.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
To:
<
Team3S@team3s.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
> The car is equipped with :
> -
3.1l overbored engine
Hi
I think that the main problem is that
when you overbore the engine
you
automatically increase the compression
ratio which automatically
makes it more prone to knock. Maybe thicker
headgaskets should be
used or lower compression
pistons.
Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:03:54
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda
long)
Matt,
Have you measured fuel line pressure? What is it at
high boost?
The NA guys have a big problem when it comes to fuel lines -
they
generally use low pressure pumps! A high pressure pump such as
ours
can compensate *up to a point* for higher flow and so a bit
higher
pressure drop in the stock lines. They have to increase line size
as
their pumps can't compensate for the pressure loss. Well custom
lines
also look cool and it is a bit macho to brag about -8 (1/2") lines!
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:03 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:04:34
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
> Matt, I
personally do not see the advantage to splitting the
> fuel line to send
it "sequentially" I think you mean equally
> :)
You are right
- I didn't explain my thinking as clearly as I could have. I
did mean I
thought it would be better for parallel flow into the rails than
sequentially
(theoretically).
> Anyway if you note the firing cycle of any
multicyclinder gas
> powered ICE the injectors fire in a pattern not all
at once
> so the injectors will not be starving for fuel never mind
the
> fact that the plumbing and all the fittings to build your
set
> up are going to add unnecessary bends and "POSSIBLE"
>
restrictions to fuel flow. Of course this is all IMHO
I realize they fire
in a pattern and not at the same time. But each one
fires once every
.017 seconds at 7200 RPM (for a duration of .014 seconds at
80% duty
cycle). At 80% IDC it is also firing through a lot more of each
cycle
(even onto closed intake valves). 60 times per second for each
injector
(3600 events per minute), and 360 injection events per second total
counting
all injectors. They are all firing at once - or more precisely 80%
of
the injectors are open at a given time at 80% IDC.
> We really can not
compare our cars to like Camaros and
> Mustangs..... We run much
higher fuel pressures than those
> cars in on boost situations, they use
bigger lines to
> counteract for the lower pressures found we do not need
to.
> Also interesting bit of info under moderate-heavy
>
acceleration the fuel pump is forced to work harder to move
> the fuel
forward in the line the larger the line you go (its
> early and I can not
remember the term for this)
Hmmm... Interesting point. I
hadn't considered that larger lines would
carry more fuel mass which would
make it harder to pump forward when
accelerating. Good point...
<scratching head> I don't think I'm smart
enough to figure out
how much that effect would add up.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:07:57
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Transmission solution?!
Recent posts here and at 3SI suggest
that 6-spd trany internal parts
are available in Europe. No word on 5-spd
parts. Kormex and others
make the syncro rings - but not the cones or hubs or
sleeves. For
parts identification take a look at my web page below.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-AWD4.htmI
list 9 shops that rebuild our Getrag Trannies on the Garage Page at
my web
site.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Michael D. Crose" <
ncsu4me@hotmail.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: Team3S: Transmission
solution?!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:14:32
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Fuel line size (was Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock ! ? (kinda
long))
> So my question to the proponents of larger fuel lines is,
> what fuel line pressure are you measuring? If you don't know,
>
then 1) you are living dangerously concerning your engine's
> safety, and
2) you don't know if you need to upgrade or not.
I didn't know before,
and lived dangerously (and am paying the price). Now
I want to plan
ahead to have a course of action to eliminate potential
bottlenecks if they
crop up during the next round of buildups.
> My personal experience is
that the stock lines and the Denso
> 195130-1020 fuel pump (AKA Supra
Turbo pump) can maintain the
> proper line pressure with 550 cc/min
injectors at 80% IDC
> (injector duty cycle). The turbo used is
irrelevant. A
> complete list of mods for my car is at my web site.
Good to know its good on your car... How much boost? 1/4
mile time? I
think I'm going to be upgrading to 660cc injectors because
the 550's look
like they'll be insufficient for those few days I end up at
the dragstrip
and want to run mega-boost (~25 psi).
> The ONLY
pressure that is important is the pressure after the
> last injector and
before the FPR. All pressure before that
> point will be higher - must be
for the fuel to flow toward
> the last injector. My pressure sensor is
not in this ideal
> position; it is right after the fuel filter (I took
the easy
> way). So my line pressure will not be the best information.
> This is perhaps the best argument for upgrading the FPR and
>
start of the return line - to install the pressure sensor in
> the best
position.
I've got a fuel pressure gauge now - I'm trying to figure out
how to install
it at the FPR - looks like I need an aftermarket FPR to make
it happen. :-(
I guess that should be a good thing in the long
run.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:16:36
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
> Have you
measured fuel line pressure? What is it at high boost?
No idea,
unfortunately. Part of my problem. That'll get solved
though.
:-)
> The NA guys have a big problem when it comes to fuel
lines -
> they generally use low pressure pumps! A high pressure pump
> such as ours can compensate *up to a point* for higher flow
>
and so a bit higher pressure drop in the stock lines. They
> have to
increase line size as their pumps can't compensate
> for the pressure
loss. Well custom lines also look cool and
> it is a bit macho to brag
about -8 (1/2") lines!
Good point, I hadn't considered that in my
thoughts...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:34:18
-0500
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Transmission solution?!
I uploaded the PNC codes and diagrams for both
transmissions last week. I
also posted Mark Wendlandt's process for
extracting the actual mitsu part
numbers from the US parts database using the
afore-mentioned PNC codes.
Clearly the parts are available SOMEWHERE.
If this list is so
"international" why is it so hard to get someone in Europe
or Asia to just
call a dealer, reference a couple of part numbers, and ask if
those parts
can be bought? This is not rocket science people. The
worst part of this
is getting the stuff shipped overseas.
Jeff
VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Jeff Lucius
Sent: Wednesday,
November 14, 2001 10:08 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Transmission solution?!
Recent posts here and at 3SI suggest
that 6-spd trany internal parts
are available in Europe. No word on 5-spd
parts. Kormex and others
make the syncro rings - but not the cones or hubs or
sleeves. For
parts identification take a look at my web page below.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-AWD4.htmI
list 9 shops that rebuild our Getrag Trannies on the Garage Page at
my web
site.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Michael D. Crose" <
ncsu4me@hotmail.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: Team3S: Transmission
solution?!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:08:25
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
It's just
pointless as usual with you sometimes, Matt. The original
question
remember was, "I was wondering if any of you had had success
putting an
aftermarket changer where the factory one now sits." And
maybe on some
steering wheels the controls are different (AM/FM, Volume
Up/Down, Auto find
stations, and tab through preset stations). AFAIK,
IMHO, BLT, etc. any
changes to the stock CD player render the steering
wheel control for it
useless. Same as far as the head unit.
Maybe, Mr. Jannusch, you
should start typing up all of these great
install mods you have and submit
them to Bob Forrest for the Team3S
list. That way we can all get a nice
picture of what you did, etc.
I just know there are some small
technicalities with the Spyder that do
not occur in the non-Spyder versions
and maybe the CD player is one of
them. I don't own a Spyder so I'll
believe your post on what you did.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Hooking a little box to power
and ground and plugging the steering wheel
control wires into it really isn't
difficult. Anyone who is installing
their own head unit should be
capable of it. Oh, I guess there's the
running of the wire for the IR
transmitter. I could see how that would
make
it a professional
project. ???
I didn't use one of those boxes. If I had, I
wouldn't have had to do
anything to the steering wheel controls or take
anything apart other
than
the radio trim ring and remove the four screws
that hold the radio in
the
dash. Hacking something together like I
did is the "old school" way to
do
it. The device I posted eliminates
all that unhappiness.
As usual you've made a mountain out of a
molehill.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:20:31
-0600
From: "Mark Wendlandt" <
stealth_tt@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Transmission solution?!
Also, this has been posted before,
but
www.parts.com lists all of the
internal parts for the 6spd trannys(nothing for the 5spd). You can
order
the parts. Since I do not have a 6spd, I haven't gone through the
exercise
of ordering, to see if you can actually get an internal part.
Nice site,
they have exploded drawings of our trannys...just click on a part
and order
it!
Anyone...anyone?
Mark
Wendlandt
'91RT/TT
>From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
>Reply-To: <
jeffv@1nce.com>
>To: "Team3s
Tech List" <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
>Subject:
RE: Team3S: Transmission solution?!
>Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:34:18
-0500
>
>I uploaded the PNC codes and diagrams for both
transmissions last week. I
>also posted Mark Wendlandt's process for
extracting the actual mitsu part
>numbers from the US parts database using
the afore-mentioned PNC codes.
>Clearly the parts are available
SOMEWHERE. If this list is so
>"international" why is it so hard to
get someone in Europe or Asia to just
>call a dealer, reference a couple
of part numbers, and ask if those parts
>can be bought? This is not
rocket science people. The worst part of this
>is getting the stuff
shipped overseas.
>
>Jeff VanOrsdal
>1991 Stealth ESX Twin
Turbo
>jeffv@1nce.com
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
>Of Jeff Lucius
>Sent:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:08 AM
>To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Transmission solution?!
>
>
>Recent posts here and
at 3SI suggest that 6-spd trany internal parts
>are available in Europe.
No word on 5-spd parts. Kormex and others
>make the syncro rings - but not
the cones or hubs or sleeves. For
>parts identification take a look at my
web page
below.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-AWD4.htm
>
>I
list 9 shops that rebuild our Getrag Trannies on the Garage Page at
>my
web site.
>
>Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
>-----
Original Message -----
>From: "Michael D. Crose" <
ncsu4me@hotmail.com>
>To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:52 PM
>Subject: Team3S: Transmission
solution?!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:45:10
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
>
It's just pointless as usual with you sometimes, Matt. The
>
original question remember was, "I was wondering if any of
> you had had
success putting an aftermarket changer where the
> factory one now
sits." And maybe on some steering wheels the
> controls are
different (AM/FM, Volume Up/Down, Auto find
> stations, and tab through
preset stations). AFAIK, IMHO,
> BLT, etc. any changes to the stock
CD player render the
> steering wheel control for it useless. Same
as far as the head unit.
Pointless with me? You gotta be kidding
here...
The original question was something along the lines of "has
anyone replaced
the stereo in a Spyder (including the CD changer) with
aftermarket units and
still had the steering wheel controls control things"
(or words to that
effect). Maybe I read wrong and the question was
whether you could hook an
aftermarket changer to the stock headunit, but that
doesn't seem like a
terribly likely scenario. The best thing to do
(IMO) is to just tear the
whole factory thing out and replace it all with
good stuff (including the
speakers).
> Maybe, Mr. Jannusch, you
should start typing up all of these
> great install mods you have and
submit them to Bob Forrest
> for the Team3S list. That way we can
all get a nice picture
> of what you did, etc.
Just use the
adaptor box I posted. Its much easier than what I did.
> I just
know there are some small technicalities with the
> Spyder that do not
occur in the non-Spyder versions and maybe
> the CD player is one of
them. I don't own a Spyder so I'll
> believe your post on what you
did.
Like I said, the more technical radio-related modifications that I
did were
on my '94 VR4 coupe (which I no longer own). The Spyder has
the full stock
stereo system installed (although it is functionally identical
in all
respects to the one that was in my '94, including the steering
wheel
controls, except for the factory amplifier). My original
hardwired hack mod
is pretty much irrelevant these days since there are
interface devices
available so you don't have to do your own hacking.
To repeat what I did
would require significant electronics experience that
the average car buff
probably won't have.
All the "can't do this" and
"can't do that" is amusing, however.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:05:15
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Has anyone put a aftermarket CD changer in a spyder?
Actually ...
I only put in part of his question. Here it is in all the
full and gory
detail. Mind you there is no mention of the steering
wheel controls --
I added that since many people do not think about that
until they try and use
them and it is too late.
So I correct my original statement and update it
with "No, there is no
problem with attaching an aftermarket changer where the
factory one now
sits. However, be prepared that some cable and wiring
connections may
change, head units might not control them, and you might lose
steering
wheel stereo functionality." But since it appears an entire
system is
going in then the steering wheel will also be useless unless some
wiring
is done.
The problem is that most people go to the store, buy a
radio, and have
it installed in the car by the shop or they pull the radio,
wire 6 leads
together, and push it back in. That is, they do not
remember the unit
also has to control a CD player and steering wheel
controls. MOST
people. My expert advice from a trained car audio
installer is that
most units do not like to mix and match components. I
have a stock
Pioneer 6-CD changer and a stock Infinity head unit and
speakers.
Somehow this all works in stock trim. However, you can not
just plug
any 6- or 12-CD changer from Pioneer in the trunk and expect it to
work.
First of all, as I said, the plug connections are different from
what
they were in 1994 or whenever the car was assembled. Secondly, if
it
finds the right connection then sometimes the head unit just will
not
power the CD changer or get data from it.
Just trying to raise
some points that people have gone through the hard
way in case others are
thinking they want a shiny head unit for Xmas. I
agree with ya,
Matt. Many stock units do not have the functionality
that most
aftermarket systems do. My opening is a double DIN so I would
need some
blank piece of plastic to sit there if I put in a single DIN
head unit.
That is not on my list for the future so I'll sit back and
watch everyone
else's projects from afar.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Nemisis
> Sent: Tuesday, November
13, 2001 21:34
>
> I'm in process of doing a complete multimedia
over haul
> in my spyder VR-4...and I was wondering if any of you
> had had success putting an aftermarket changer where
> the
factory one now sits? I'm planning on a 7" in dash
> monitor (w/CD
changer controls) 4 channel amp.. and
> upgraded speakers all around
(+Bass shakers). I'm just
> worried about losing the luxury of a CD
changer. Thanks
> for any information... Also.. do any of you have
an
> aftermarket amp sitting where the factory amp did?
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Wednesday, November
14, 2001 11:45
The original question was something along the lines of
"has anyone
replaced
the stereo in a Spyder (including the CD changer)
with aftermarket units
and
still had the steering wheel controls control
things" (or words to that
effect). Maybe I read wrong and the question
was whether you could hook
an
aftermarket changer to the stock headunit,
but that doesn't seem like a
terribly likely scenario. The best thing
to do (IMO) is to just tear
the
whole factory thing out and replace it all
with good stuff (including
the
speakers).
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:25:58
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Fuel line size (was Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock ! ? (kinda
long))
Jeff, I agree with you completely on this first point... I just
feel if you
are going to be screwing around with the fuel system just do once
(old adage
measure twice cut once)
I currently measure my pressure in
the same location as you (borrowed your
idea) That is how I found out that on
a long 4th gear pull my fuel pressure
was dropping :( Hence I
replaced my pump with the walboro 255lph but left
everything else alone (440
CC's on the way)
Agreed, that is why I will be getting a second
Walboro if I see the need
after I tune the final product of all my labor (I
hope to NOT have too)
This is no shock to me personally, but I came from
a world where 720CC INJ
were considered a mild upgrade and 850 or larger was
the norm ;)
Thanks for the tip I will have to relocate the pressure
sensor when the time
comes.
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: Jeff Lucius [SMTP:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday,
November 14, 2001 9:48 AM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Fuel line size (was Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock
> !?
(kinda long))
>
> We monitor for these types of problems using a
fuel line pressure
> gauge. The injectors will squirt the correct amount
of fuel as long
> as the line pressure is correct. If the pump cannot flow
the volume
> at the pressure required, then the line pressure will
decrease. When
> this is detected (using the line pressure gauge) then it
is time to
> either upgrade the pump or increase the line size or maybe
both.
>
> So my question to the proponents of larger fuel lines is,
what fuel
> line pressure are you measuring? If you don't know, then 1)
you are
> living dangerously concerning your engine's safety, and 2) you
don't
> know if you need to upgrade or not.
>
> There is
nothing wrong at all with larger lines assuming you have a
> pump that can
keep them full and pressurized. Empirical measurements
> show that flow
(at the same pressure loss) increases with the 2.5th
> power of the ratio
of the line diameter. So a change to -6 lines from
> the stock -5 lines
would allow 60% more flow at the same pressure
> loss. Going to -8 lines
would allow 320% more flow at the same
> pressure loss. A change to -8
lines will also require 2.5 times the
> volume of fuel to fill the lines
as would be needed for -5 line (just
> compare the area of the cross
section as length is the same). Wow, a
> damn big pump (or two) is needed
for those lines!
>
> My personal experience is that the stock lines
and the Denso
> 195130-1020 fuel pump (AKA Supra Turbo pump) can maintain
the proper
> line pressure with 550 cc/min injectors at 80% IDC (injector
duty
> cycle). The turbo used is irrelevant. A complete list of mods for
my
> car is at my web site.
>
> The ONLY pressure that is
important is the pressure after the last
> injector and before the FPR.
All pressure before that point will be
> higher - must be for the fuel to
flow toward the last injector. My
> pressure sensor is not in this ideal
position; it is right after the
> fuel filter (I took the easy way). So my
line pressure will not be
> the best information. This is perhaps the best
argument for upgrading
> the FPR and start of the return line - to install
the pressure sensor
> in the best position.
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:44:51
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Colder Heat Range Spark Plugs
> Don't forget to run colder
spark plugs on these modified setups!
Ok, so can someone explain exactly
how a "colder" heat range spark plug
differs from a "warmer" range plug (or
point me to a website)? Does it
refer to the actual temperature of the
electrode?
Following that, why do you want a colder plug for
higher-boost applications?
Is the reasoning that colder plugs somehow reduce
pre-combustion cylinder
temperatures and will compensate for the expected
increase in intake air
temperature resulting from high boost? Is this a
pre-ignition/detonation
control thing?
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
occasionally running 14.2psi just fine with original stock
plugs
(36,000miles) at stock gap
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:09:05
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Colder Heat Range Spark Plugs
A colder plug Xfers heatw
better from the electrode, therefore its a less
risk of a detonation
area.
However, it may not get hot enough to prevent fouling with oil
and
crap..if youhave a tired motor.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Gross, Erik
wrote:
> > Don't forget to run colder spark plugs on these modified
setups!
>
> Ok, so can someone explain exactly how a "colder" heat
range spark plug
> differs from a "warmer" range plug (or point me to a
website)? Does it
> refer to the actual temperature of the
electrode?
>
> Following that, why do you want a colder plug
for higher-boost applications?
> Is the reasoning that colder plugs
somehow reduce pre-combustion cylinder
> temperatures and will compensate
for the expected increase in intake air
> temperature resulting from high
boost? Is this a pre-ignition/detonation
> control thing?
>
> --Erik
> '95 VR-4 occasionally running 14.2psi just fine with
original stock plugs
> (36,000miles) at stock gap
- ---
Geoff
Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:50:53
EST
From:
StealthCT@aol.comSubject: Team3S: Fuel
Pressure
I have 720 injectors, Paxton fuel pump and larger fuel lines and
see about 4 bar of fuel pressure at 1.2 bars of boost. Regards
Charles
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:51:52
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Colder Heat Range Spark Plugs
> Ok, so can someone explain
exactly how a "colder" heat range
> spark plug differs from a "warmer"
range plug (or point me to
> a website)? Does it refer to the
actual temperature of the
> electrode?
First read
this:
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqheatrange.asphttp://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/overviewp2.asphttp://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqmodified.aspA
colder plug dissipates more heat away from the cylinder and into the head.
If
you run too hot of a plug it can induce preignition and detonation.
NGK
recommends that for every 75-100 HP more your motor makes you should go
one
heat range cooler.
> Is this a pre-ignition/detonation control
thing?
Yup...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:51:58
US/Central
From:
tds@brightok.netSubject: Re: Fuel line
size (was Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long))
In
extreme cases there could even be
> heating of the "fluid" caused by
friction against the walls. As long
> as the pump can compensate for the
pressure drop, there should not be
> a problem. Theoretically of course.
>
Many of us have learned not to depend so completely on pumps
to overcome
restrictive fuel lines - especially with the ever changing flow
rates being
posted/claimed on the most popular in-tank upgrades [Denso,
Walbro etc] for our
cars.
Jeff - I remember a time there where you
weren't even sure which pump you had
installed?! [serial numbers removed
etc] Then you were forced to send it out
[to RC?] and have it flow
tested? Some of the popular in-tank pumps have
turned out to be less
than expected/claimed ...
And we should throw the dice and hope these
pumps are able to overcome/make up
for the tiny factory stock fuel lines
selected for use by Mitsu with stock
360cc injectors and stock boost
pressure/fuel pressure?!
These same lines *might* be "adequate" for use
with 660 or 720 cc injectors on
heavily modified/bored motors at 10 to 15+
PSI higher than stock boost/fuel
pressures?!
> So my question to
the proponents of larger fuel lines is, what fuel
> line pressure are you
measuring? If you don't know, then 1) you are
> living dangerously
concerning your engine's safety, and 2) you don't
> know if you need to
upgrade or not.
Many have found it preferable to design/setup the fuel
system correctly in the
beginning rather than risk or perhaps *substain*
engine damage while
testing/overtaxxing the limits of the stock fuel lines
on much higher HP
applications. Seems like common sense to me?
Those that build modified turbo
motors for a living don't seem to be
confused about this issue at all ....
>
A change to -8 lines will
also require 2.5 times the
> volume of fuel to fill the lines as would be
needed for -5 line (just
> compare the area of the cross section as length
is the same). Wow, a
> damn big pump (or two) is needed for those
lines!
>
And perhaps and even bigger/stronger damn pump would be
needed to flow the same
amount of fuel using tiny fuel lines. In fact it
would require *higher* FP to
flow the same amount/volume using stock lines
vs. -8.
> My personal experience is that the stock lines and
the Denso
> 195130-1020 fuel pump (AKA Supra Turbo pump) can maintain the
proper
> line pressure with 550 cc/min injectors at 80% IDC (injector
duty
> cycle). The turbo used is irrelevant. A complete list of mods for
my
> car is at my web site.
So in other words - You don't have
personal experience with larger (600+ cc)
injectors, larger (17G+) turbos
using the stock fuel lines .....
I would venture to guess that my 720
cc/min injectors at 75% IDC [seen at near
max safe/low knock boost on 91
pump gas] would require more fuel than 550s at
80%? I would also guess
that higher boost [using race fuel] and even higher
IDC with the 720s would
require even more?!
The turbo used is most certainly *not* irrelevant as
it determines a
significant portion/consideration of the overall setup,
needs and requirements!
Dynos, stats etc posted on 3si clearly
demonstrate the day/night differences
between HP output (& fuel
requirements) between smaller turbos and larger
turbos even when measured
*at the same boost pressure*. We've seen HUGE
differences. [100 +
HP] An extensive thread was posted just in the last week
or two with
references to two different Supras demonstrating such differences
so clearly
that it should be obvious to consider all factors/components
contributing to
motor output (especially turbos) where fuel requirements are
concerned.
>
> The ONLY pressure that is important is the
pressure after the last
> injector and before the FPR. All pressure before
that point will be
> higher - must be for the fuel to flow toward the last
injector. My
> pressure sensor is not in this ideal position; it is right
after the
> fuel filter (I took the easy way). So my line pressure will
not be
> the best information. This is perhaps the best argument for
upgrading
> the FPR and start of the return line - to install the pressure
sensor
> in the best position.
>
Pressure/fuel availability
is important for *every* injector/cylinder. With
the stock setup there
is a significant problem with the undersized line
containing bends that
connects the front rail to the back rail. It is
not "adequate" to feed
the rear rail after coming out of the front rail which
is feeding 3 large
(600+cc) injectors in high HP/boost applications. This
according to
those that modify these motors for a living and unfortunately my
personal
experiences. (with larger injectors, turbos etc)
> Perhaps those
running 660 or 720 injectors and have a fuel line
> pressure gauge will
let us know what their line pressure is at high
> IDC. Fuel line pressure
should be 1 psi over 43 psi for very psi of
> boost.
>
My
fuel pressure is perfect at 74/75% IDC using 720s. But I don't use the
stock fuel lines, fuel pump, FPR, filter etc ..... (my mods are posted on my
web site .... :)
I have seen FP drops (and worse) using stock lines
with HKS pump in the past. I
measure FP after the rails - [between the rails
and the FPR and now directly at
the FPR] - and am puzzled why it would be
better to measure it anywhere else ...
Finally - let me be perfectly
clear and state my final point:
To those that are adding extensive mods,
larger > 15G turbos, larger > 550
injectors etc - *don't expect or
rely on the stock fuel lines, rail coupling
feed, stock pump, stock FPR to
be "adequte".*
Unless you have thousands of dollars to build,
rebuild and rebuild again due
damaged pistons etc there is no rhyme or
reason to experiment in finding the
final limits of the tiny stock fuel
lines and restrictions of the stock setup.
In other words : don't
feed a built 600+ HP turbo motor with fuel lines the
size of a drinking
straw .... Your motor will die of thirst .....
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:54:44
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Fuel line size
> Good to know its good on your
car... How much boost?
> 1/4 mile time? I think I'm going to
be upgrading to
> 660cc injectors because the 550's look like
they'll
> be insufficient for those few days I end up at the
>
dragstrip and want to run mega-boost (~25 psi).
I'm only running 17-18
psi of boost. I have run up to 20-21 psi but
knock gets bad and the ECM dumps
fuel. I have an ERL WI 2S system to
install this winter.
550 will be
too small for 25 psi of boost. At 6000 RPM, 95% VE, 2.8
PR, about 840+ cfm
will be flowing or about 3350+ lb/hr of air.
You'll need about 270 lb/hr or
2815 cc/min of fuel just for power.
That's 470 cc/min per injector. That
doesn't sound bad but 550
injectors would be running at 85% IDC just for
power. More fuel will
be needed to quell knock. A 620 injector would be at
about 76% IDC. A
660 injector at ~71% IDC. The IDC range of 70-80% is
probably ideal
for these larger injectors and 620 or 660 injectors would be a
great
choice for running 22-25+ psi boost. 720 would be OK too when at
max
boost (65% IDC or so), but almost all the rest of the time they
are
underutilized.
From what I have read, injectors have a sweet spot
where flow is
consistent and pattern is good - usually between 60 and 80%
IDC. This
can't be predicted and I'm not sure how we would tell if we
are
running in the injector's sweet spot. Lots of dyno time would
probably
help.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-air-fuel-flow.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:14 AM
Subject: RE: Fuel line size (was Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more
knock !? (kinda long))
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:10:10
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Fuel line size
> Finally - let me be perfectly clear and
state my final point:
> To those that are adding extensive mods,
larger > 15G turbos,
> larger > 550 injectors etc - *don't expect or
rely on the stock
> fuel lines, rail coupling feed, stock pump, stock FPR
to
> be "adequte".*
Todd, we are in complete agreement!
I am just suggesting that a fuel line pressure sensor be
installed
both for monitoring and warning. It is incomprehensible to me
why
someone would not monitor fuel line pressure after/before
doing
extensive mods as you describe to their car. Hmmm, I wonder if
the
professionals who race for a living do this or do they just
trust
their setup to be adequate and not to fail?
FWIW, a revamped
fuel supply system is in my plans. :)
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: <
tds@brightok.net>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel line size (was Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more
knock !? (kinda long))
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:09:30
EST
From:
StealthCT@aol.comSubject: Team3S: Fuel
Lines
I agree with Todd that the stock fuel system is probably the reason
for most of the engine rebuilds that take place every year. My system
includes upgraded fuel pump,fuel lines, fuel rails, split line feeding each
rail, and 720 injectors. I believe anything less at high boost (20 -28) is
going to result eventually in engine failure. Regards
Charles
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:26:37
-0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Colder Heat Range Spark Plugs
> First read this:
>
>
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqheatrange.asp>
>
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/overviewp2.asp>
>
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqmodified.asp>
Thanks, Matt - just what I was looking for. So the heat range is a
measure
of the thermal conductivity of the spark plug - i.e. how
well it transfers
heat from the tip to the cylinder head. They
indicate that you should go
one range colder for every 75-100hp you
add.
To summarize what NGK says, if your plugs are too "hot" they
will be a hot
spot in the cylinder and possibly a source of
pre-ignition. If they get way
too hot, the insulator will blister and
things will begin to melt. If your
plugs are too "cold", they will not
be able to clean off the deposits of
carbon and oil that result from the
combustion process and will eventually
cause poor spark and
misfiring.
So what I infer from the above is that it's better to err on
the side of a
cold plug if you're not sure, since fouling and misfiring
doesn't generally
break stuff like pre-detonation does. So am I correct
that the way to go
about selecting the correct plug would be to use the
75-100hp rule to
initially select the plugs, going colder if you're on the
border, and then
run the car for a while and check the plugs for
fouling?
One other thing about colder plugs: so if you select
colder plugs to cool
the tip better because of higher boost/power conditions,
what happens to the
plugs when you drive normally (not high boost)?
Does this mean that the
colder plugs will not be able to maintain the
self-cleaning temperature
during normal driving or cruising? If so,
then I'd guess that just means
that you have to drive it hard every once in a
while to clean off the plugs.
Dang... that's a hard one - it'll be a real
inconvenience to do that =)
- --Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:35:20
-0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Colder Heat Range Spark Plugs
> So what I infer from the
above is that it's better to err on
> the side of a cold plug if you're
not sure, since fouling and
> misfiring doesn't generally break stuff
like pre-detonation
> does. So am I correct that the way to go
about selecting the
> correct plug would be to use the 75-100hp rule to
initially
> select the plugs, going colder if you're on the border, and
> then run the car for a while and check the plugs for
fouling?
Exactly correct.
> One other thing about colder
plugs: so if you select colder
> plugs to cool the tip better
because of higher boost/power
> conditions, what happens to the plugs
when you drive normally
> (not high boost)? Does this mean that the
colder plugs will
> not be able to maintain the self-cleaning temperature
during
> normal driving or cruising? If so, then I'd guess that
just
> means that you have to drive it hard every once in a while to
> clean off the plugs. Dang... that's a hard one - it'll be a
>
real inconvenience to do that =)
I ran/run one step colder plugs in my
modded Eclipse GSX and there weren't
any problems with fouling driving on the
street. Turbo motors get warm
enough just mildly on the boost.
Realistically I think our engines burn
pretty cleanly and deposits are a much
smaller issue than
preignition/detonation. I'm switching to copper
plugs one range colder to
start with on the "new" engine. If I'm
getting lots of knock with the
higher compression ratio I have (about 8.5:1)
I may try going another range
colder to see what happens. Plugs are
easy to change once you do it a
couple times.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:34:54
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Colder Heat Range Spark Plugs
Erik sort of, the way it
was explained to me was 100-125hp over stock go
one range colder.... And to
answer your other question yes you would need to
do that. Not that I know
anything about use highrpms/speed to clean spark
plugs ;)
> So what
I infer from the above is that it's better to err on the side of a
> cold
plug if you're not sure, since fouling and misfiring doesn't
>
generally
> break stuff like pre-detonation does. So am I correct
that the way to go
> about selecting the correct plug would be to use the
75-100hp rule to
> initially select the plugs, going colder if you're on
the border, and then
> run the car for a while and check the plugs for
fouling?
>
> One other thing about colder plugs: so if you
select colder plugs to cool
> the tip better because of higher boost/power
conditions, what happens to
> the
> plugs when you drive normally
(not high boost)? Does this mean that the
> colder plugs will not be
able to maintain the self-cleaning temperature
> during normal driving or
cruising? If so, then I'd guess that just means
> that you have to
drive it hard every once in a while to clean off the
> plugs.
>
Dang... that's a hard one - it'll be a real inconvenience to do that =)
>
> --Erik
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:50:36
-0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
It adds up to
zero!
That is, acceleration will take extra psi to overcome, but it is the
same regardless of line size.
Think of it as two pipes, one 1" id, the
other 2' id, standing vertically.
if they are both 10 feet tall, the pressure
at the bottom is y psi for both.
If you now make them 20 feet
tall(acceleration effect), they still both have 2y psi.
And a bigger line
does not require a bigger pump, only more time to initially fill, then it is on
equal footing and better, since the pressure drop is
less.
Kurt
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt [mailto:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
Sent:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:05 AM
To: 'Team 3S'
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
> Matt, I
personally do not see the advantage to splitting the
> fuel line to send
it "sequentially" I think you mean equally
> :)
You are right
- I didn't explain my thinking as clearly as I could have. I
did mean I
thought it would be better for parallel flow into the rails than
sequentially
(theoretically).
> Anyway if you note the firing cycle of any
multicyclinder gas
> powered ICE the injectors fire in a pattern not all
at once
> so the injectors will not be starving for fuel never mind
the
> fact that the plumbing and all the fittings to build your
set
> up are going to add unnecessary bends and "POSSIBLE"
>
restrictions to fuel flow. Of course this is all IMHO
I realize they fire
in a pattern and not at the same time. But each one
fires once every
.017 seconds at 7200 RPM (for a duration of .014 seconds at
80% duty
cycle). At 80% IDC it is also firing through a lot more of each
cycle
(even onto closed intake valves). 60 times per second for each
injector
(3600 events per minute), and 360 injection events per second total
counting
all injectors. They are all firing at once - or more precisely 80%
of
the injectors are open at a given time at 80% IDC.
> We really can not
compare our cars to like Camaros and
> Mustangs..... We run much
higher fuel pressures than those
> cars in on boost situations, they use
bigger lines to
> counteract for the lower pressures found we do not need
to.
> Also interesting bit of info under moderate-heavy
>
acceleration the fuel pump is forced to work harder to move
> the fuel
forward in the line the larger the line you go (its
> early and I can not
remember the term for this)
Hmmm... Interesting point. I
hadn't considered that larger lines would
carry more fuel mass which would
make it harder to pump forward when
accelerating. Good point...
<scratching head> I don't think I'm smart
enough to figure out
how much that effect would add up.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:56:47
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Stillen Downpipe
Andy
My question actually has to do with the UAE
spec engine --- do you have
any idea how they accomplish the feat of running
without O2 sensors. The
stock ECU requires O2 sensors to operate at other
than WOT conditions
and O2 sensors will not survive long with lead in their
diet --- any idea how
they get the car to run without O2 sensors
?!?!?!?!?!?!
Jim
Berry
====================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Andrew Spargo <
spargo@emirates.net.ae>
>
I recently had a Stillen Downpipe fitted to my 1999 (GCC specs) VR4 and after
reading about the slight misalignment many on the
list
> had mentioned,
I would like to confirm the following. The Stillen Downpipe does not match the
position of the original
downpipe.
.
< snip >
>
> 1999 VR4 (GCC specs = Gulf Cooperation Committee)
-sorry Mike Reid, I told you Council.
> Like no other specs!!!!!!
(I'm still using "Leaded" petrol !!!)
>
>
> Andy
Spargo
> United Arab Emirates
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#673
***************************************