Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Tuesday, November 13 2001
Volume 01 : Number
672
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:13:53 -0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Top speed
Thanks. What general length of road does it
take to slow down from 170
mph and how stable was the car under the light to
moderate braking? I
know on emergency stops on the autobahn Roger G.
warps normal rotors so
he had to upgrade.
- --Flash!
1995
VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mihai Raicu
[mailto:mraicu@wayne.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001
10:00
Top speed on 94 TT was 169 mph (272 kph) in 5th gear.
After AVC-R (14.7
psi) and K&N mods the car did 171 mph (275 kph) in 5th
gear. On the
second run it was foggy outside, so that may be part of
the reason why
the top speed was not a bit higher. Both runs were done
on a 6 mile
flat and straight stretch of road, which basically means that for
the
past few miles the car did not accelerate any more. The speed
was
verified with a GPS, and is accurate. The AVC-R kept the highest
speed
in memory. Some other aspects of the run: two people in car both
times
which increased weight unnecessarily.
Also, Jim W. from Germany
reports a very similar top speed (171 mph I
believe) on the autobahn with the
same mods my brother and I have on our
cars.
- -MIHAI-
95 Red
VR4
- -John-
94 Pearl Yellow TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:21:44
-0500
From: "anthonymelillo" <
anthonymelillo@home.com>
Subject:
Team3S: help needed-entering and how to for car shows
I finally got my
car modifications completed, at least until I see another one I like, and would
like to enter into some car shows
sometime.
Since I have never done
this, I was wondering if anyone could offer some help. Firstly, how can I
find out where and when car shows
are ?
Then can you offer tips and
such.
There is only one car show around here that I know of, and it is
mainly for street rods and such, like old mustangs, camaro's, and
newer
stuff. I hardly ever see imports such as ours.
Any help will be
appreciated. You can see how my car looks now here:
http://www.members.home.com/anthonymelillo/3000gt.htmAnthony
Melillo
anthonymelillo@home.com1997 VR-4,
Firestorm Red
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:27:47
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: help needed-entering and how to for car shows
I can think of no
person better-suited for this than Ryan Patterson (or
Peterson). He has
what I feel is the world's best-looking 3/S car.
I'll have to find the web
page again. That thing is friggin' amazing.
Anyway, Ryan, if you are
out there ... give some pointers.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
-
-----Original Message-----
From: anthonymelillo
Sent: Monday, November 12,
2001 14:22
I finally got my car modifications completed, at least
until I see
another one I like, and would like to enter into some car
shows
sometime.
Since I have never done this, I was wondering if
anyone could offer some
help. Firstly, how can I find out where and
when car shows
are ?
Then can you offer tips and such.
There is
only one car show around here that I know of, and it is mainly
for street
rods and such, like old mustangs, camaro's, and
newer stuff. I hardly
ever see imports such as ours.
Any help will be appreciated. You
can see how my car looks now here:
http://www.members.home.com/anthonymelillo/3000gt.htmAnthony
Melillo
anthonymelillo@home.com1997 VR-4,
Firestorm Red
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:38:11
-0500
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: help needed-entering and how to for car shows
Sorry. It is
Ryan Peterson and here is his page. I must say ... I've
always been
impressed with his car show pix and how he sets up the car.
http://www.crcwnet.com/~ryanp/-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren
Schilberg
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 14:28
I can think of
no person better-suited for this than Ryan Patterson (or
Peterson). He
has what I feel is the world's best-looking 3/S car.
I'll have to find the
web page again. That thing is friggin' amazing.
Anyway, Ryan, if you
are out there ... give some pointers.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
-
-----Original Message-----
From: anthonymelillo
Sent: Monday, November 12,
2001 14:22
I finally got my car modifications completed, at least
until I see
another one I like, and would like to enter into some car
shows
sometime.
Since I have never done this, I was wondering if
anyone could offer some
help. Firstly, how can I find out where and
when car shows
are ?
Then can you offer tips and such.
There is
only one car show around here that I know of, and it is mainly
for street
rods and such, like old mustangs, camaro's, and
newer stuff. I hardly
ever see imports such as ours.
Any help will be appreciated. You
can see how my car looks now here:
http://www.members.home.com/anthonymelillo/3000gt.htmAnthony
Melillo
anthonymelillo@home.com1997 VR-4,
Firestorm Red
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:19:03
-0500
From: "Zobel, Kurt" <
KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Top Speed, el Mirage
El Mirage 1.3 (2.09KM) mile lakebed course
in SoCal..example speeds in mph
for more complete info -
http://www.scta-bni.org/I am
guessing we are probably a C or D engine class, but cannot find the
eng
class to displacement info. our general class should be GT as below.
Included
GC, prod coupe for comparison.
Considering this is slightly longer
than the 2KM course, I think 150-175mph speeds are likely, depending on HP and
car prep. BTW, I doubt the extra weight is much penalty, its mostly wind
resistance you are fighting at higher speeds. Reducing any rotating resistance
might be good, and wheel covers seem to be very popular from the pictures. Lite
wheels and brake rotors, UD pulleys, disconnected alternators, things like that
would be helpful.
Engine Body Driver Name Date Speed
Gas Coupe -
GC
AA GC D. Macdonald 10/01/90 206.611
A GC R. Adams 11/01/96 207.451
B GC D. Labine 05/01/97 206.458
C GC
L. Prothero 06/01/00 191.961
D GC B. Tucker 11/01/94 187.856
E GC B.
Jucewic 06/01/95 178.035
F GC A. Flagg 11/01/00 155.521
G GC C. Jeffries
10/01/86 146.413
H GC L. Monreal 06/01/85 132.567
I GC K. Rowe 06/01/85
127.786
Unblown Grand Touring Sports - GT
AA GT G.
Curtis 07/01/91 198.544
A GT K. Hoover 05/01/96 196.438
B GT Open
Minimum 185.000
C GT M. Cook 11/01/81 183.670
D GT M. Cook
10/01/87 179.964
E GT C. Hebestreit 07/01/88 172.943
F GT J. Breirley
11/01/95 158.950
G GT C. Jeffries 06/01/86 144.671
H GT J. Wilson
11/01/81 131.770
I GT K. Rowe 05/01/84 107.655
GRAND TOURING SPORT
class BGT, GT
example car - 280z sports coupe
Series production sports
cars and coupes, as well as limited production cars by a recognized automobile
manufacturer, which are primarily intended for comfortable high speed touring.
At least 500 of the same model must have been produced. This category does not
include cars with rear seats suitable for continued adult occupancy.
The
following items must be retained in stock location and of the same year as the
body: frame, fenders, hood, grille, drip rails (must not be filled), windows,
door handles, window trim, headlights (high and low beam), tail lights, parking
lights, stop lights, radiator, both bumpers and horn. Stock gas tank must be
fitted, but need not be used. Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and
starter capable of starting engine may be used, as long as the original running
gear design is retained. Independent rear suspension may be replaced with any
non-quick change rear end.
The following body and chassis modifications
may be made: wheel openings may be radiused, generator may be removed and any
exhaust system capable of being closed off may be used (no individual stacks).
Air dams and air spoilers identical to factory optional equipment for the body
in question may be added, bucket seats may be used (as long as original
side
panel upholstery or equivalent remain) minor chrome trim and emblems
may be removed, and air scoops may be used. Stock windshield may not be removed
or lowered.
Any tarps must be nonrigid. Engine swaps are permitted, as
long as they are of the same manufacturer (e.g., Ford into Ford, Porsche into
Porsche, etc.).
This class may run nitrous oxide, but will be advanced
two (2) engine classes.
The following are not permitted: streamlining,
belly pans, air ducts, air vents, headlight air scoops, chopping, channeling,
quick change rear ends, stepped frames, exhaust outlets through the front
fenders or hood, blocked off grilles or radiators, engine relocation, body and
interior gutting, taped body or window seams.
Rules for this class will
be strictly enforced to ensure that cars entered herein are typical of street
machines which may be purchased from an automobile dealer.
Engine classes
allowed are: AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, and J.
PRODUCTION COUPE and
SEDAN class GC
example car - camaro z28
This class is for American and
foreign coupes, sedans, unaltered in height, width or contour, with all stock
panels mounted in original relationship to each other. This category does not
include cars properly classified as Sports or GT, such as foreign cars without
rear seats suitable for continued adult occupancy. It does include Mustangs,
Camaros, Barracudas, 1958 or later Thunderbirds, compacts, and other American
cars of this type. There must have been 500 produced yearly. Convertible tops
and rear windows must be up when running.
The following items must be
retained in stock location and of the same year as the body: frame, fenders,
hood, grille, drip rails (must not be filled), windows, door handles, window
trim, headlights (high and low beam), tail lights, parking lights, stop lights,
radiator, both bumpers and horn. Stock gas tank must be fitted, but need not be
used. Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and starter capable of
starting engine may be used, so long as the original running gear design is
retained.
The following body and chassis modifications may be made:
headers, hood scoop, wheel openings (may be radiused), passenger and rear seat
may be removed. Air dams and air spoilers identical to factory optional
equipment for the body in question may be added, bucket seats may be used,
original side panel upholstery or equivalent must remain, minor chrome trim and
emblems may be removed.
The following are NOT permitted: streamlining,
belly pans, air ducts, air vents, headlight air scoops, chopping, channeling,
quick change rear ends, stepped frames, exhaust outlets through the front
fenders, or hood, or body, blocked-off grilles or radiators, engine relocation,
body or interior gutting, supercharging, engine swaps, taped body or window
seams. Rules for this class will be strictly enforced to ensure that cars
entered herein are typical of street machines which may be purchased from ANY
automobile dealer.
Engine classes allowed are: AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G,
H, I, J, XF, XO & XXO.
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Steve Cooper [mailto:scooper@paradise.net.nz]
Sent: Saturday, November 10,
2001 1:18 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Re: Team3S: Top Speed
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Top Speed
. Will pictures, video, write-ups be
>
available afterwards?
Here's the site of the organisors & pics from
last year
http://www.ggon.net/media/videos/ohakea/ohakea_videos.htmSteve
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:51:58
-0800 (PST)
From: glenn amy <
glenn_amy@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: removing paint overspray
Any suggestions from removing paint
overspray from
plastic parts? I have some on the front active
aero
and on the pillar behind the drivers door.
Yes, I saw this before
I bought the car....
Thanks in advance,
Glenn
'93 (drivers side
repainted) vr-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:09:40
EST
From:
Fredweyand@aol.comSubject: Team3S: MPI
Self-Diagnosis Procedure With Analog Voltmeter
Hello, my name is Fred
Weyand. Many thanks to the TEAM3S administrators and
members for providing
and maintaining a site filled with so much technical
information.
I am
in the process of troubleshooting an engine start-stall-no start problem
in
a 1992 Dodge Stealth R/T DOHC Non Turbo.While I am new to the List, I have
been researching the site FAQ's and archives for more than three
weeks.
Before I post an additional message describing the specific details of
my
problem, I'd like to confirm that I am performing the MPI self-diagnosis
procedure correctly. On page 14-45 of the 1992 Stealth Engine, Chassis &
Body
Volume 1 manual, it is stated, "Connect an analogue voltmeter to the
self-diagnosis connector (white)." There is also an illustration of the
connector identifying the 'MPI' pin and a 'ground' pin. I have been
conducting the test by connecting the positive lead of my analog voltmeter
(Simpson 260) to the MPI pin and the negative lead to the ground pin. After
turning the ignition switch to the on position, I receive a normal state ECU
wave pattern. Is this the correct procedure?
Or, does the correct
procedure require grounding the 'ground pin' to chassis
ground while the
voltmeter is connected as above in order to retrieve the
contents of the ECU
memory? I am confused by a previous message I located in
the archives.
Thanks, Fred
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:38:30
-0500
From: Ken Stanton <
tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: MPI Self-Diagnosis Procedure With Analog Voltmeter
My first
impression says, yes, you are doing it right. If your check
engine
light is not on, there most likely is no code for it to spit
out. Best of luck.
Ken
Fredweyand@aol.com wrote:
>
Hello, my name is Fred Weyand. Many thanks to the TEAM3S administrators
and
> members for providing and maintaining a site filled with so much
technical
> information.
> I am in the process of troubleshooting an
engine start-stall-no start problem
> in a 1992 Dodge Stealth R/T DOHC Non
Turbo.While I am new to the List, I have
> been researching the site FAQ's
and archives for more than three weeks.
> Before I post an additional
message describing the specific details of my
> problem, I'd like to
confirm that I am performing the MPI self-diagnosis
> procedure correctly.
On page 14-45 of the 1992 Stealth Engine, Chassis & Body
> Volume 1
manual, it is stated, "Connect an analogue voltmeter to the
>
self-diagnosis connector (white)." There is also an illustration of the
>
connector identifying the 'MPI' pin and a 'ground' pin. I have been
>
conducting the test by connecting the positive lead of my analog
voltmeter
> (Simpson 260) to the MPI pin and the negative lead to the
ground pin. After
> turning the ignition switch to the on position, I
receive a normal state ECU
> wave pattern. Is this the correct
procedure?
>
> Or, does the correct procedure require grounding the
'ground pin' to chassis
> ground while the voltmeter is connected as above
in order to retrieve the
> contents of the ECU memory? I am confused by a
previous message I located in
> the archives.
> Thanks,
Fred
- --
Ken Stanton
'91 Pearl White Stealth RT/TT
3Si
Rochester (NY)
FIPK, HKS Dual Exhaust
AVC-R (1.2bar), Triad Alky
Injection
Improved Precats
HKS SSBOV
Cusco Rear Strut Bar, Konig Flight
17"
6 speed conversion, RPS Stage II
Aiwa MP3 Stereo
007KEN spark plug
plate, license plates
ASC sunroof, white Ram emblem
Best (pathetic)
time:
13.5 @ 104mph (1.2 bar w/ poorly tuned alky)
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:29:21
+1300
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Top Speed
Hi
Thanks for all the feedback, I'll let you
know how I get on after the
weekend, so long as it doesn't rain of
course.
Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:22:41
-0600
From: "Eric Cheek" <
echeek@cox-internet.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Spark Plugs
Just did the replace spark plugs and wire trick
on my 92 VR4. Used the
Magnecor 8mm for the wires and NKG PFR6J-11 plugs. Ya
it took me a while to
get everything off and the rear plugs installed, but
once you do it once, it
is pretty easy to do it again as I did. For some
reason after the change
outs the car wouldn't run very good, my guess is
something else is going out
on it. Has this little hesitation it gets every
now and then, some times
fairly severe, but if I pull over, shut it down and
fire it back up, its
usually gone soo time to go to the shop and have them
scope it out I guess,
was hoping to spend the money on something more like a
big red kit ;)......
Oh I bought the wires from Nippon Power
www.nipponpower.com for 138.46
shipping
included and the plugs from
www.alamomotorsports.com for 71.70
for
the set (not including shipping).
I know the dealer charges about
$400.00 just for the plugs, and I'd guess
at least $75.00 for the wires if
not a little more.
One thing I did have a hard time with was that stupid
Y-Pipe .... the
gasket that goes between the Y-Pipe and the throttle body
looked like it had
been mauled by whomever put it on last. So I heated it up
in boiling water
to soften it, put it back in the Y-Pipe with some rags to
hold it tight and
reform it to the Y-Pipe. It all looked OK till I hit full
boost and the
Y-Pipe blew off ... gag back to the drawing board .... Anyhow
its all
running now, except for that occasional stumbling, ohh and idles
rough. Ohh
and I've got 130,000 miles on the car, the front 3 plugs looked
great, the
back 3, I'd swear are the originals, there was barely anything
left of them,
and I bet that gap was 60 thousands ... have twice the power
now that I have
new plugs and wires.
Eric Cheek, 92 VR4 -Magnecor 8mm
premium wires, Fresh six-pack of NKG's,
K&N FilterCharger Kit
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of RJM
Sent: Monday, November
12, 2001 4:25 AM
To: Team3s
Subject: Re: Team3S: Spark Plugs
I
agree as I have 95,000 miles on what I believe are the original plugs on
my
3000gt SL and am putting in the platinum NGK's again even though it
runs
great. Why rock the cradle? Don't forget to change out the
spark plug
ignition wires too.
Bob
cody wrote:
> Good
luck on the 100K mile thing... its really not that hard... I've got
> it
down to about 15 minutes total on a non-turbo, so say 25 minutes on a
>
turbo due to the extra IC lines to remove....
>
> If you do plan on
this, the factory plugs are the only ones that will
> give you a prayer of
running that long. Those are the NGK Platinum
> plugs... all
others will last 5 - 15K miles...
>
> -Cody
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of Thomas Jeys
> Sent:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 9:25 PM
> To: Team 3s
> Subject: Team3S:
Spark Plugs
>
> Changing spark plugs looks like it's gonna be a big
pain. I want to do
> this
> once every 100,000 miles. So
what are the best plugs for our cars?
> I've
> heard bad things
about split fires, but a few people seem to swear by
> them.
> I've
also heard some good things about the bosch platinum +4 spark plug.
> Any
thoughts?
>
> -T.J. 1992 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 04:18:00
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Re: 3S-Racers: FS: '94 VR4 rims with Yoko R032 race tires
>
George
> Sorry to hear you're selling your toy --- what's the problem, you
just got
it up and running.
> Are the tires the Yoko A032's ???
>
If so, I'm interested in the tires but not the rims --- if you find
someone
who wants the rims only maybe we can reach an
agreement.
> Jim
Berry
- ---------------------------------
I may want the rims, since
my beautiful Gewalt wheels are dead. I spoke of
that vibration I was
getting - it turns out that the insides 3 of the wheels
look like eggs and
the fourth has a blip that renders it useless, too. Now
the rubber is
worn unevenly, so they are crap, too. I can't imagine that ET
playing
lawn girl in some gravel at Sears Point could have caused that
much
damage. If you track folks remember, that dude at the track even
commented
that one of the wheels appeared bent on one of our (red) cars,
Jim. Looks
like it WAS ours, but I didn't feel it until driving on the
way home that
night - I noticed it the second we left Sears Point and got on
the smooth
highway. Custom Alignment thinks it was an uneven highway or
pothole hit,
but I think it was wheel fatigue from hundreds of .9g turns at
the tracks.
I want to explore getting forged wheels, maybe Speedline or
something, but I
have to decide if I want to take a chance on 18's again or
go to 17's and
the cushioning effect of the extra rubber. But I really
DID like the
stability and control with the low profile and short
sidewall. I've got to
make some calls and check out a few
websites. Stay tuned... Bummer...
Forrest
-
-----------------------
- ----- Original Message -----
From: AmkreadGTO
<
amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
>
Hello All,
> Looks like the beast will be sold.
> I have a set of
'94 VR4 17in chrome rims with Yokohama R032 road race
tires. The rims
are straight and in decent shape. No chrome chips, but
wouldnt put it
on ur show car. The tires were used in one light track
weekend.
About 70% tread on 2 and the other 2 have about 90% tread...
> $1000 obo
(+ shipping & handling)
> Please email me privately.. I'll try to get
some pix this weekend.
> Thanks,
> George
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:08:41
-0800
From: "Andrew D. Woll" <
awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: FS: '94 VR4 rims with Yoko R032 race tires
Hi
Folks. I am interested in the 17 inch chrome rims. Let me know how much
we
are talking about.
Andy
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:31:08
+0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Hi
all,
Since I have the datalogger for some years now, many cars have been
logged
with it. This weekend, I installed the newest Blitz stuff in a
93'3000GT
(Euro Version) and tuned it in.
The car is equipped with
:
- - 3.1l overbored engine
- - precats removed
- - custom exhaust from
pre cats-back (extremely loud, urgh)
- - Blitz SBC-iD Boost Controller
- -
Blitz i-D Power Meter
- - Blitz DTT DC Dual Turbo Timer
- - K&N Filter
(larger Eclipse Version)
Some more :
- - extreme wide-body (custom
made fenders, 3.5 cm wider on each side, grazy)
- - more compressed Intrax
springs (extreme low and hard ride)
- - custom wheels from R&H
(18x10)
... more understeer than normal :-/
The car have been rebuilt
due to the fact one installed an Audi electronic
box out of the Audi turbo
cars. With a small potentiometer he was able to
increase boost (a little
larger electronic valve that ours was used). Well,
he runned 1.2 bars or
even more and needless to say that it broke twice in
its live (110kmiles
now).
Before I installed the boost controller I runned the car and it was
great
in the bottom end (3.1l displacement !). On the top it was as good as
all
other 3S with about 0,5 bar of boost. After installing the BC we slowly
increased boost up to 0.8 bars....no knock so far then. Interestingly, the
O2 showed only 0.9V and a max of 0.92. Not enough in my opinion. We then
increased boost to 0.86kg/cm2 and got knocksum up to 26 from 5200 rpm on.
At 0.84 kg/cm2 the sum was 15, still too much. Therefore I reduced boost to
0.82 kg/cm2 where no knock appeared.
Now, I was comparing some logs
and came to a strange conclusion or better
said an opinion based on datalogs
:
"Rebuilt cars tend to have more knock than cars where the internals of
the
engine are never touched."
I'm not sure why, but I was able to
push the boost of many cars up to 1.05
kg/cm2 with only little knock even on
warm ambient but on most rebuilt ones
I saw knock at 0.8 kg/cm2 and more. If
this is really a fact, then this
would mean that the rebuild process was
either not done perfectly or that
this is a common problem.
Please
note, all rebuilt engines broke due to the typical overboosting
problem.
None of them got better parts, only one or two with oversized
pistons.
Interestingly those where the worst regarding knock :-(
Another
interesting thing is that each car is old (94 was youngest). On a
few
I(including the one of this weekend) I saw an O2 voltage drop to
0.86-0.88 V
above 5000 rpm what of course leads into knock in the engine. I
think the
voltage at the pump and fuel pressure should be tested but this
is not
easily done beforehand any tuning.
It sounds like a bad sign for some of
us but boosting every car up to 1 bar
is now told "dangerous" if not
properly done with a tuning tool like the
datalogger that shows where the
engines start to knock. 0.8 kg/cm2 sounds
safe for all cars on all ambient
conditions (except hurricane or flooding).
Unfortunately an O2 sensor meter
doesn't count as I saw rich mixtures and
knock at 0.9 kg/cm2 :-(
Last
but not least, I'm looking for ideas of this finding based on the
datalogs
(hell, I'm in the same boat and due to the water injection and
large
injectors I'm able to boost up to 1.2 bars without huge knock) to
find a way
to prevent any bad situations after a rebuild. Things of thought
are :
-
- coils (ignition in general)
- - wiring 12V (pump voltage)
- -
injectors
- - fuel delivery (clogged stuff)
- - ECU
...
?
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:45:23
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Drag Racing with 700 HP
Still waiting to hear from Charles
about his fabulous 700 HP car and
his 1/4 mile times that beat every "street"
car. I wonder if he ever
raced Matt Monett? Maybe we will see Charles race at
Norwalk next
year? :)
Since no one has beaten 15G/17G 1/4 mile track
times with larger
turbos, here is a chance for Charles to really shine in
front of his
other owners and aspiring 1/4 milers. And this is a chance to
prove
me wrong about large turbos (who would pass that up?). :)
In the
mean time, I have summarized some simple "tests" for
high-output 3S
engines.
1) Divide the HP in half to get pounds per hour of fuel. In this
case
350 lb/hr of fuel is required for about 700 HP. Divide that by 6
to
get gallon/hr. Here this would be 58 gal/hr (multiply by 3.78 to
get
lph - 220 lph). Remember this pump flow must be at very high
boost
levels (fuel line pressures of about 70 psi).
2) Next figure how
much air is needed. About 12.5 lbs of air are
needed for every pound of fuel
for best power. So 700 HP and 350
lb/hr fuel would require about 4375 lb/hr
of air. You can figure that
air weighs about 0.07 lb/CF (usually a little
less so more CFM would
be needed). So 4375 divided 0.07 would be 62500 CF/hr
of air or
(divide by 60) 1041 CFM (at sea level and 100ºF intake air
temp).
So now you can ask the person:
1) what fuel pump are you
running?
2) what turbos are you using?, and
3) what boost pressure are you
running.
Charles stated the following in a post.
1) Paxton external
fuel pump - I wonder what this flows at 70 psi
line pressure?
2)
TD05-18G turbos - which I guess can flow well over 500 CFM each at
some
PR-flow rate combo. The compressor flow maps I have seen for 16G
and 20G
turbos show that the max flow rate at 2.0 PR (where the
rating comes from) is
well out of range of what our engines are
capable of (RPM and displacement).
Does someone have a compressor
flow map for 18G turbos?
3) Didn't say
but 26+ psi of boost would be needed to flow 1041 CFM
of air with a
well-tuned head. Hmmm, how do you control detonation at
26+ psi boost? I
didn't see a WI kit on Charles list, maybe he forgot
to mention it. NOS
maybe?
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-air-fuel-flow.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius2/j2-2-fuelpumpguide.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius2/j2-2-turboguide.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Cc:
<
StealthCT@aol.com>
Sent:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:03 AM
Subject: Team3S: Drag Racing with 700
HP
So, Charles, what are your 1/4 miles times/speeds with 700 crank
HP?
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- --- On October
31, 2001
StealthCT@aol.com wrote:
>
It seems to me not long ago you road racers (including the old
> poop)
were complaining that this net was used primarily by us drag
>
racers. It seems now you got your wish as there seems to be few of
>
us left. I do drag race and have raced all of the cars in a
> straight
line that you are competing against at the track. This
> includes
Viper's, Z06,s and just about everything on four wheels.
> Needless to say
my car is heavly modified, producing around 700 HP
> at the crank,
however I have no trouble at all beating all of
> these cars handily in a
quarter mile. I have yet to be beaten by a
> "street car". I
believe our cars are capable of holding there own
> against any street car
when properly modified. Regards Charles
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:50:01
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Ok, first
things first our stock O2 sensors are no where near accurate
enough for
tuning (this is true with almost all sports cars exceptions are
Ferrari
etc... but for 250K I had better get a allot) Tuning should
be
done with High Band o2 sensor stuffed no more that 2 inches after the Y
in
the D/P and also I would like to note that located there the sensor will
see
about a 150-200 RPM lag, if you are using the NE points on SAFC.
Agreed, Roger IMHO run a -8AN line from the tank/pump to a inline
fuelfilter
(remove the stocker with it's damn banjo fittings) from the filter
to the
front rail again -8AN then another to connect the front rail to the
rear and
a third from the rear rail to the FPR. From the FPR run a -6AN
return line
to the tank. Trust me if a MKIV can make 750RWHP using this
set up with
900CC injectors it will work for us.
When I figure out how
much power I want my car to make I will create a
parts/price list and post on
my site (under construction) to give everyone
proof idea that a fuel system
does not have to be expensive just well
thought out and quality components
used.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Gerl
[SMTP:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:31
AM
> To:
Team3S@team3s.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
>
> Before I installed the boost controller I runned the car and it was
great
> in the bottom end (3.1l displacement !). On the top it was as
good as all
> other 3S with about 0,5 bar of boost. After installing the
BC we slowly
> increased boost up to 0.8 bars....no knock so far then.
Interestingly, the
>
> O2 showed only 0.9V and a max of 0.92. Not
enough in my opinion. We then
> increased boost to 0.86kg/cm2 and got
knocksum up to 26 from 5200 rpm on.
> At 0.84 kg/cm2 the sum was 15,
still too much. Therefore I reduced boost
> to
> 0.82 kg/cm2 where
no knock appeared.
>
> Now, I was comparing some logs and came to a
strange conclusion or better
> said an opinion based on datalogs
:
>
> "Rebuilt cars tend to have more knock than cars where the
internals of the
>
> engine are never touched."
>
>
I'm not sure why, but I was able to push the boost of many cars up to
1.05
>
> kg/cm2 with only little knock even on warm ambient but on
most rebuilt
> ones
> I saw knock at 0.8 kg/cm2 and more. If this
is really a fact, then this
> would mean that the rebuild process was
either not done perfectly or that
> this is a common problem.
>
> Please note, all rebuilt engines broke due to the typical overboosting
> problem. None of them got better parts, only one or two with oversized
> pistons. Interestingly those where the worst regarding knock
:-(
>
> Another interesting thing is that each car is old (94 was
youngest). On a
> few I(including the one of this weekend) I saw an O2
voltage drop to
> 0.86-0.88 V above 5000 rpm what of course leads into
knock in the engine.
> I
> think the voltage at the pump and fuel
pressure should be tested but this
> is not easily done beforehand any
tuning.
>
> It sounds like a bad sign for some of us but boosting
every car up to 1
> bar
> is now told "dangerous" if not properly
done with a tuning tool like the
> datalogger that shows where the
engines start to knock. 0.8 kg/cm2 sounds
> safe for all cars on all
ambient conditions (except hurricane or
> flooding).
>
Unfortunately an O2 sensor meter doesn't count as I saw rich mixtures and
> knock at 0.9 kg/cm2 :-(
>
> Last but not least, I'm
looking for ideas of this finding based on the
> datalogs (hell, I'm in
the same boat and due to the water injection and
> large injectors I'm
able to boost up to 1.2 bars without huge knock) to
> find a way to
prevent any bad situations after a rebuild. Things of
> thought
>
are :
> - coils (ignition in general)
> - wiring 12V (pump
voltage)
> - injectors
> - fuel delivery (clogged stuff)
> -
ECU
> ... ?
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
>
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:03:56
+0200
From: "Oleg Reznik" <
oleg@3000gt.lv>
Subject: Team3S: Japan
CAPS
Hello,
As I see, 2-3 persons already downloaded all programms
files...Have you
instal it?
Oleg
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:27:23
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Why do people
keep saying this about stock O2 sensors. They work just
fine. Granted they
are nothing like $1000 wide-band sensors, but they
are far from useless. As
Roger pointed out, and as I have observed
also, for *a particular car* the O2
voltage can be a very reliable
and repeatable indicator of A/F (in a relative
sense) especially when
knock is concerned. My experience is similar to
Roger's: O2 volts
less than 0.90-0.92 increase the chance for knock, O2 v
around 0.96
usually minimize knock. Ackowledging of course that at some
cylinder
pressures no amount of extra fuel will stop knock. Also, I do
not
have WI at this time.
Fuel lines. The stock lines were just fine
for the fastest of our
cars. Not saying larger lines are bad (the extra
insurance is nice),
but the stock -5 is adequate. The stock lines already
work for us -
ask Jack T and Matt Monett. Has anybody with larger fuel lines
beat
the 1/4 mile times of these two who used stock lines?
Jeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
To:
"'Roger Gerl'" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Cc: "'Team
3S'" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
Ok, first things first our stock O2 sensors
are no where near
accurate
enough for tuning (this is true with almost all
sports cars
exceptions are Ferrari etc... but for 250K I had better get
a allot)
Tuning should be done with High Band o2 sensor stuffed no more
that
2 inches after the Y in the D/P and also I would like to note
that
located there the sensor will see about a 150-200 RPM lag, if you
are
using the NE points on SAFC.
Agreed, Roger IMHO run a -8AN
line from the tank/pump to a inline
fuelfilter (remove the stocker with it's
damn banjo fittings) from
the filter to the front rail again -8AN then
another to connect the
front rail to the rear and a third from the rear rail
to the FPR.
From the FPR run a -6AN return line to the tank. Trust me
if a MKIV
can make 750RWHP using this set up with 900CC injectors it will
work
for us.
When I figure out how much power I want my car to make I
will create
a
parts/price list and post on my site (under construction) to
give
everyone proof idea that a fuel system does not have to be
expensive
just well thought out and quality components used.
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Gerl
[SMTP:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:31
AM
> To:
Team3S@team3s.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda
long)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:06:10
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
I agree with
you about the stock lines being "adequate" The first real
restriction is the
feeder line from the pump (my term) the next is the PITA
fuel filter with
it's worthless banjo fittings. Since You are going to be in
that area
monkeying around I figure do it all in one shot and not possibly
have to
screw around with it later on down the line. Especially with how our
engine
bays are laid out...... I know I am complaining again but she drew
blood
again on Sunday.
I still have to disagree about the O2's
;) I have seen too many put faith
in those a/f gauges + EGT's to
save their asses while they are doing highway
runs. Needless to say I
am not that impressed.... and a rebuild is not a
cheap thing.
I will
be posting an offshoot of this thread in a minute concerning WI +
Upgraded
SMIC's VS WI+ FMIC
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: Jeff Lucius [SMTP:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November
13, 2001 12:27 PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
>
> Why do people keep saying this about stock O2 sensors. They work
just
> fine. Granted they are nothing like $1000 wide-band sensors, but
they
> are far from useless. As Roger pointed out, and as I have
observed
> also, for *a particular car* the O2 voltage can be a very
reliable
> and repeatable indicator of A/F (in a relative sense)
especially when
> knock is concerned. My experience is similar to Roger's:
O2 volts
> less than 0.90-0.92 increase the chance for knock, O2 v around
0.96
> usually minimize knock. Ackowledging of course that at some
cylinder
> pressures no amount of extra fuel will stop knock. Also, I do
not
> have WI at this time.
>
> Fuel lines. The stock lines
were just fine for the fastest of our
> cars. Not saying larger lines are
bad (the extra insurance is nice),
> but the stock -5 is adequate. The
stock lines already work for us -
> ask Jack T and Matt Monett. Has
anybody with larger fuel lines beat
> the 1/4 mile times of these two who
used stock lines?
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
>
To: "'Roger Gerl'" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
> Cc:
"'Team 3S'" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:50 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Rebuilt
engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
>
>
> Ok, first
things first our stock O2 sensors are no where near
> accurate
>
enough for tuning (this is true with almost all sports cars
> exceptions
are Ferrari etc... but for 250K I had better get a allot)
>
Tuning should be done with High Band o2 sensor stuffed no more that
> 2
inches after the Y in the D/P and also I would like to note that
> located
there the sensor will see about a 150-200 RPM lag, if you are
> using the
NE points on SAFC.
>
> Agreed, Roger IMHO run a -8AN line
from the tank/pump to a inline
> fuelfilter (remove the stocker with it's
damn banjo fittings) from
> the filter to the front rail again -8AN then
another to connect the
> front rail to the rear and a third from the rear
rail to the FPR.
> From the FPR run a -6AN return line to the tank.
Trust me if a MKIV
> can make 750RWHP using this set up with 900CC
injectors it will work
> for us.
>
> When I figure out how
much power I want my car to make I will create
> a
> parts/price
list and post on my site (under construction) to give
> everyone proof
idea that a fuel system does not have to be expensive
> just well thought
out and quality components used.
>
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Roger Gerl [SMTP:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:31 AM
> > To:
Team3S@team3s.com> > Subject:
Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:23:49
-0500
From: "bill vp" <
billvp@highstream.net>
Subject:
Team3S: raise cruise control speed limit on 1st gen ?
How would I go
about doing this? The cruise control maxes out at 90 mph.
I've been
told that the 2nd gen cars do not have a cruise control
speed
limiter.
thanks,
Bill
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:25:03
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Upgrade SMIC's VS FMIC's
Ok, So I am doing some window
shopping..... I see that Dynamic has the DN
Performance FMIC for
$2,699. Or I can get the DR SMIC's for $999 + $675 for
the DN
Performance IC pipe upgrade ($1675 grand total) Has anyone
ever
measured the intake air temps for a comparison? Ideally you would
want to
measure in the same location about 2 inches after the Y and about the
same
spot on the FMIC intake pipe to compare which gives a cooler charge.
Correct
me here if need be....
For all the haters ;) A front
mount will not cause our cars to overheat on
the street at the track (i.e.
HPDE) you may having a problem but that is why
you get fluidyne
aluminum radiator and an additional oil cooler with a
bypass style thermostat
and be done with it
Ok has anyone measured intake temps on their car with
WI on vs off?
I am trying to get creative in suppressing Knock with out
just adding more
fuel to get rid of one problem and get
another.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:32:05
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
I am not
saying use only O2 sensors for "tuning" - that would be both
silly and
dangerous (as you point out). Neither Roger nor I do that.
I use the
following tools.
- - TMO and PocketLogger dataloggers (for knock among
other things)
- - Two ARM1 A/F meters (one for each O2 sensor)
- - Two EGT
gauges (one for each manifold)
- - Fuel pressure gauge (so I can tell my
lines and pump are OK)
- - peak-hold-warn boost gauge
- - coolant temp
gauge (stock one calibrated with datalogger)
- - common sense and senses (a
fool with the best tools can still foul
things up)
Wish list tool: AWD
dyno w/ wideband O2
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
To:
"'Jeff Lucius'" <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>; "'Team
3S'"
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have
more knock !? (kinda long)
<snip>
I still have to disagree about
the O2's ;) I have seen too many
put faith in those a/f
gauges + EGT's to save their asses while they
are doing highway runs.
Needless to say I am not that impressed....
and a rebuild is not a cheap
thing.
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:45:57
-0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
Hey Jeff I
know what you are saying b/c we think alike and I know it seems
like I am
being an arse about this.... It is just almost all of our mail is
archived so
I am looking to make sure everyone is as clear as glass on this
topic
:)
I am ordering on Thurs, the pocket logger software (have
a Palm IIIc
already) Have 2 EGT gauges, FP gauge, Peak hold function is
served by AVCR
(dash board mounted) but is going to get replaced by SBCi-D to
get warning
function. When I get the pocket logger software arrives I
will have to
calibrate the Coolant temp gauge (will need help me
thinks).
Is the ARM1 more accurate/responsive than the Autometer
units? Do not have
either yet...
I know believe me I know three motors
in 8 months with my integra taught me
very thorough/expensive lessons
:(
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Lucius
[SMTP:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 1:32
PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuilt engines have more knock !? (kinda long)
>
> I am not saying use only O2 sensors for "tuning" - that would be
both
> silly and dangerous (as you point out). Neither Roger nor I do
that.
> I use the following tools.
>
> - TMO and
PocketLogger dataloggers (for knock among other things)
> - Two ARM1 A/F
meters (one for each O2 sensor)
> - Two EGT gauges (one for each
manifold)
> - Fuel pressure gauge (so I can tell my lines and pump are
OK)
> - peak-hold-warn boost gauge
> - coolant temp gauge (stock one
calibrated with datalogger)
> - common sense and senses (a fool with the
best tools can still foul
> things up)
>
> Wish list tool:
AWD dyno w/ wideband O2
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com