Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Sunday, October 21
2001 Volume 01 : Number
651
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:48:08 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
Ann,
Glad
to see some other owners popping up with Big Reds. Gawd aren't
they
fun? I have only seen one 96 Stealth and it was at the
Wisconsin
Gathering so I don't know what they have different other than the
rear
wing is a little changed.
One sure way to tell is if
there is an ECS suspension button on the
dash or a Tour/Sport light on the
instrument cluster. Also, if there
are a bunch of little black boxes on
top or near the top of the strut
towers. I just have wiring harnesses
that end there since I don't have
that but they still left all the old wiring
harnesses in place.
For AWS I was under the impression that all
VR-4 cars had them
(except maybe that first year or two) but can't remember
about the TTs.
Perhaps they didn't get that until the second gen. I
never followed the
Stealth much since I have a VR-4 but I probably
should.
When I hit Pep Boys or Sears they seem to list the VR-4
and TT/R-T in
the same category for all years and call it 4WD but this tells
us
nothing about the steering.
When I had the wheel off of
mine and looked in the wheelwell in the
back there is some noticeable
hardware added for the AWS cars ... more
sensors, a rod that turns near the
axle itself I think, and some other
junk I have no idea what it is yet.
I think CAPS might have number if
you plug in the VIN but a good mechanic
should be able to tell also. I
am neither.
- --Flash!
1995
VR-4 w/ Big Reds, SS brake lines, rollbar, and the only
rollbar-mounted rear
speakers
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ann Koch
Sent:
Saturday, October 20, 2001 11:03
Does anyone know when (or if)
Dodge started eleminating some of the
special features of the TT as it was
phasing out the car? I've heard
that the 95 TT might not have such
features as AWS and suspension
control. How can one tell? Are
there certain production numbers on
vehicles or is there a date after which
these features were eleminated?
Thanks.
Ann Koch
Blue 93 stealth
TT; all stock except Big Red brakes
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:00:06
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Cape Cod 2001 Gathering pictures
Here are my pictures from last
weekend's Cape Cod Gathering. Other
people took good pictures as
well. This was more of a trio from
Pittsburgh, PA to near Sandwich, MA
and since the Fall leaves are nice
that time of year we took extra pictures
of them. All of them were
taken by me and all of them on the road were
taken by me while driving
- -- which is probably illegal somewhere
(grin).
The trip in general headed from Pittsburgh through the middle of
the
state, into southern NY, then through Connecticut, Rhode Island,
and
into Boston for the Blue Man Group show and down to a lovely Bed
and
Breakfast on the Cape.
Then a 3/S Poker Run Saturday morning
followed by our car show and then
the Eric Bowden celebrity award banquet
then back to the ice cream shop
afterwards.
Sunday was F1Boston go
karts, then a stop at Foxwoods casino in CT, then
Sherwood's for ribs outside
NYC. Back through northeastern and central
PA and back home. The
road signs are to help people know where the
shots are from until I rename
them logically. Enjoy.
Tech related stuff? At the car show
people were asking what fit on
other cars like wheels, tires, turbos, boost
controllers, data loggers,
seats, stereos, etc. Lots of good learning
when people just chat and
ask questions. Ask anything that you have
questions about when seeing
the cars and I'll explain as best I can.
Enjoy.
450 pictures from the trip:
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg/cars/events/CapeCod2001/index.htmPanorama
pictures from the trip (best viewed at the largest size your
monitor will
handle):
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg/cars/events/CapeCod2001/pan/index.htm-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:03:56
-0400
From: Joe Gonsowski <
twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
My web page will answer all
the questions you may have on 2nd Gen R/T TTs.
AWS was deleted for '95 &
'96 on the Stealths. Not sure about VR-4s
although I believe all VR-4s
from '91 - '99 had AWS. I hope someone else
chimes in if this isn't the
case.
http://people.mw.mediaone.net/twinturbo/3S_Production.htmlJoe
Gonsowski
'92 & '96 R/T TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:34:52
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
Joe
I was looking over your
site an production volumes and have a question
about the missing VIN numbers
--- have you run a carfax on any of the
numbers or checked with a dealer
data base to see if any exist.
Jim Berry
=================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Joe Gonsowski <
twinturbo@mediaone.net>
To:
<
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Cc:
'Team3S' <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, October 20, 2001 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth
TT comparison
> My web page will answer all the questions you may have
on 2nd Gen R/T TTs.
> AWS was deleted for '95 & '96 on the
Stealths. Not sure about VR-4s
> although I believe all VR-4s from
'91 - '99 had AWS. I hope someone else
> chimes in if this isn't the
case.
>
>
http://people.mw.mediaone.net/twinturbo/3S_Production.html>
> Joe Gonsowski
> '92 & '96 R/T TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:10:36
-0400
From: Joe Gonsowski <
twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 95 & 96 Stealth TT comparison
Jim Berry
wrote:
> Joe
>
> I was looking over your site an
production volumes and have a question
> about the missing VIN numbers ---
have you run a carfax on any of the
> numbers or checked with a dealer
data base to see if any exist.
I assume you are talking about the '91 and
'97 missing #s. We know at least
some of the missing #'s are actual
cars out there since one of the guys on the
3SI board owns one of the missing
VINs ('91 R/T TT). Mike Reid only has the
missing sequence #'s and
therefore requires you to guess at the check digit
which could be 0-9 or
X. This is assuming you know it is a Mitsubishi vs
Stealth and a TT vs
base etc. Once you enter the complete VIN correctly into
carfax, you
will know what kind of car it is and where it was last titled etc.
If anyone
would like to volunteer to go through the missing VINs to determine
how that
particular car was built, email Mike and he'll give you all the
missing
VINs. You might get lucky like I did while decoding the '95 R/T
TT in that all
the missing VINs from 1995 were Dodge Stealth R/T TTs which
only left the check
digit as the only variable. It was made even easier
for me when I found a way
to get the whole VIN from Chrysler given just the
sequence #.
Mike Reid:
mreid@magma.caJoe G.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 00:57:18
+0200
From: "Roger Gerl" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: New Blitz Dual Turbo Timer DC
Installed the timer today on a
clients car. He's very happy with it as he
runs a bleeder valve and never
knew what boost he runs on. This new timer
comes with a boost alarm setting
when hit and the display turns red and give
a double peep (like the Blitz
boost controller). Needless to say that it
peeped at 1.05 bars :-/ It now
also has a bar graph that shows time or boost
graphically. Nice in peak mode
as actual boost is still shown on the graph.
It's the same price like the
older DTT and comes with the timer box (mounted
on the chassis behind the
ECU) and the control panel.... nice thing and the
customer really loves
it.
Check out the pics :
http://www.rtec.ch/pictures/dtt_dc_inst3.jpghttp://www.rtec.ch/pictures/dtt_dc_inst1.jpghttp://www.rtec.ch/pictures/dtt_dc_inst2.jpghttp://www.rtec.ch/pictures/dtt_dc_inst4.jpgRoger
93'3000GT
TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:04:41
-0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Team3S: BOV Dump
Strait to Atmosphere
Has anyone noticed any strange effects when venting
your stock BOV strait to
the atmosphere? I'm having a bit of a problem
with idle control, but it
seems to be slowly disappearing. I did have
to reset my ECU to clear a CE
light because I forgot to plug in the MAS (car
ran kinda rich because of
that :-). So I'm wondering if I just have to
let my ECU re-learn or if this
is a permanent bug associated with this
mod. Thanks!!
T.J. 1992 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:30:10
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: BOV Dump Strait to Atmosphere
Its not a bug, when the BOV
opens, you vent metered air..and the ECU gets
confused..and -can-
stall. If its an adjustable BOV, it might just be set
to
lose.
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Thomas Jeys wrote:
> Has anyone
noticed any strange effects when venting your stock BOV strait to
> the
atmosphere? I'm having a bit of a problem with idle control, but
it
> seems to be slowly disappearing. I did have to reset my ECU to
clear a CE
> light because I forgot to plug in the MAS (car ran kinda rich
because of
> that :-). So I'm wondering if I just have to let my ECU
re-learn or if this
> is a permanent bug associated with this mod.
Thanks!!
>
> T.J. 1992 3000GT VR-4
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
Geoff Mohler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:17:39
-0400
From: "Paul Butkiewicz" <
Team3S@DiabloEnterprises.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: BOV Dump Strait to Atmosphere
From what I've heard, it's a
problem that comes with any aftermarket BOV that replaces our BPV. A Blow
Off Valve will vent off air
that is accounted for by the MAS. Our
By-Pass Valve vents it back into the intake so the air that was accounted for
goes to the
engine. With an atmosphere venting BOV, the air is lost and
can result in a rich A/F ratio which can result in stalling. This
is
why the GReddy Type-S BOV (actually a BPV) is a good option.
There is
also theory that the turbos spool up better after shifting gears if you have the
BOV vent into the intake instead of the
atmosphere because you don't lose as
much intake pressure, but I don't know if that's confirmed or not.
Good luck,
let us know if the ECU evens the idle out,
Paul Butkiewicz
Diablo
Enterprises
Phone/Fax 781-769-4180
Norwood, MA 02062-4012
http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, October 20, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Team3S: BOV Dump Strait to
Atmosphere
> Has anyone noticed any strange effects when venting your
stock BOV strait to
> the atmosphere? I'm having a bit of a problem
with idle control, but it
> seems to be slowly disappearing. I did
have to reset my ECU to clear a CE
> light because I forgot to plug in the
MAS (car ran kinda rich because of
> that :-). So I'm wondering if I
just have to let my ECU re-learn or if this
> is a permanent bug
associated with this mod. Thanks!!
>
> T.J. 1992 3000GT
VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:09:33
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Ceramic brakes?
you need to direct the questions to Geoff --- the
carbon/carbon
setup was for rotors and pads only and it's not just a matter
or
wiping the water off. Appearently the carbon absorbs moisture
and it
must be driven out through heating of the rotor/pad so
for street use you
would have to preheat them before you use
them --- on a track you can heat
them on the warmup lap.
Jim
Berry
=========================================
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: MIHAI RAICU <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
To: <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>; <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Cc:
<
fastmax@home.com>
Sent: Friday,
October 19, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Ceramic
brakes?
> Roger Gerl and Jim Berry,
>
> So, then the
$1700 carbon/carbon brakes Geoff Mohler listed
> must be similar in
construction to the $8000 Porche Ceramic
> Brakes I asked about,
correct? What is included in the $1700
> brakes? Discs, pads,
callipers?
>
> If Roger is right about the other components
around the
> wheels not being heat resistant enough, then our track
people
> can't realy put those carbon/carbon brakes on without
>
overheating the rest of the components in the vicinity.
>
> Also,
how Porche makes their brakes stop on the street, we
> can get a similar
setup to stop us very good on the street in
> dry weather. Any idea
how much performance loss a ceramic
> brake setup will have on the street
in wet weather due to not
> having a fancy ABS system to dry the
brakes.
>
> I just want fade free brakes, and $1700 looks like a
good
> compromise for driving 3 out of 4 seasons.
>
>
-MIHAI-
>
> From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
>
> Geoff
Mohler posted about a carbon/carbon setup for our cars,
> price was in
the $1700 range. He said track only because they
> tend to absorb moisture
> Jim Berry
>
>
> >From: <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
>
>
> >I don't think that it is impossible to adapt them to our
> cars but the whole part around the hub must be changed as
> they
are not heat ressistant than tehy should be. The ceramic
> brake from the
new Porsches is about $8000 and when ordered
> with a new Porsche, the
whole setup is about $15000 more than
> with normal brakes (titanium
parts of the suspension).
>
> >Roger
> >93'3000GT
TT
> >www.rtec.ch
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:36:41
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: BOV Dump Strait to Atmosphere
I think the original question was
if there was any strange effect when
venting the stock BOV (correctly called
a turbo bypass valve) to
atmosphere ... not if an aftermarket one dumps to
atmosphere or the
intake.
I vented mine to see what it was like.
Got a cool *whoosh* sound when
shifting gears, lost metered air, did not
stall, did not run rich. It
did not run at all when I forgot to
re-attach one of the hoses though.
It ran fine under no boost but as soon as
it hit boost range I lost
power instantaneously (the sure sign a hose blew
off or was not
connected).
My idle is fine and I tried to get the list
to determine how far in/out
their idle set screw was set but nobody ever
responded. I turned mine
all the way shut (clockwise) and then backed
it out until the idle
leveled at the correct 750 rpm. I believe this
was three full turns but
I can check again. So if yours is all the way
out (barely in) or all
the way in and is at 750 rpm then there is something
wrong.
There is nothing wrong with dumping to atmosphere though other
than you
lose metered air ... but since you are not paying for it then it
just
makes a nice sound. You only lose a little performance since
your
engine needs to suck in that much more air.
- --Flash!
1995
VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Jeys
Sent: Saturday,
October 20, 2001 20:05
Has anyone noticed any strange effects when
venting your stock BOV
strait to
the atmosphere? I'm having a bit of
a problem with idle control, but it
seems to be slowly disappearing. I
did have to reset my ECU to clear a
CE
light because I forgot to plug in
the MAS (car ran kinda rich because of
that :-). So I'm wondering if I
just have to let my ECU re-learn or if
this
is a permanent bug associated
with this mod. Thanks!!
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:13:00
-0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: BOV Dump
Strait to Atmosphere
The ECU did eventually learn to control the idle
better, took about 15
minutes of driving though. As far as performance
goes, I can't tell any
differance either positive or negative (but it sure
does sound sweet, I can
hear blow off by just reving my engine up to 3
grand). I have heard 2
theories on how this effects performance though:
1) the loss of boost
pressure to the atmosphere keep the turbos from staying
well spooled 2) the
turbo is able to free wheel better without the
pressurized intake while
venting to the atmosphere (kinda like it's a bad
idea to put a ram air
intake on our cars). Any thoughts?
T.J.
1992 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 04:19:36
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: BOV Dump Strait to Atmosphere
- --- Thomas Jeys <
tj@jeys.net> wrote:
> The ECU did
eventually learn to control the idle better, took about
> 15 minutes of
driving though.
I hope so, since a properly functioning BOV (open or
closed to the
atmosphere) has no airflow through it at idle and should not
affect
idle in any sense. Having watched the fuel trims many times using
a
TMO and PocketLOGGER, I know that the ECM reacts within *seconds*
to
changes in air flow or fuel mixture.
> I have heard 2 theories
on how this effects performance though:
> 1) the loss of boost pressure to
the atmosphere keep the turbos
> from staying well spooled
The
*exhaust gas* spools the turbo. The BOV has no affect on this
EXCEPT when it
does not function correctly and allows high pressure
to build in the intake
track, which tries to slow the compressor
wheel, possibly to the point of
damaging the turbo. This action is
exactly what the BOV (or more correctly a
by-pass valve) is designed
to prevent. The BOV relieves pressure in the
intake track when the
throttle plate is closed quickly. The triggering
condition is greater
pressure in the Y-pipe than in the plenum (throttle
plate closed
right after a "boosting" situation).
> 2) the turbo is
able to free wheel better without the pressurized
> intake while venting
to the atmosphere (kinda like it's a bad idea
> to put a ram air intake on
our cars).
The turbo only "free wheels" when the exhaust flow/heat is
low, such
as at idle and very low RPM cruising. Look at compressor flow
maps
and you will see that almost no boost is produced when turbos
spin
less than about 20,000-50,000 RPM (depending on model). A
properly
functioning BOV does not affect this. Again the *exhaust gas*
turns
the turbo wheels. All the engine intake track (output side of
turbo)
can do is try to stop the wheels from turning if a BOV is not used
or
is not functioning correctly and the throttle plate is slammed
shut
under boosting conditions.
I have never heard of ram air, which
has a minimal affect at speeds
less than about 80 mph, as being bad, forced
induction or not.
Remember the "rammed air" is goint INTO the turbo. The
higher the
intake pressure, the higher the potential output pressure from
the
turbo. "Ram air" is a good thing for turbos.
How our pressurized
intake system works:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-primer.htmBOV
and BPV explained:
http://www.turbobricks.org/cbv_bov.htmlTurbo
information and upgrade guide:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius2/j2-2-turboguide.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:41:31
-0400
From: "Paul @ Diablo Enterprises" <
Team3S@DiabloEnterprises.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Questions on Turbo Setups
I've got two questions.
1. Is
it bad for twin turbo setups if the intercooler piping is longer for one turbo
than the other?
2. Would it be more effective if the intercoolers were
before the turbos?
I was just looking at Jeff's page with the cut-away
engine shot and it just popped into my head.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:04:00
-0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: BOV Dump
Strait to Atmosphere
>I hope so, since a properly functioning BOV
(open or closed to the
>atmosphere) has no airflow through it at idle and
should not affect
>idle in any sense. Having watched the fuel trims many
times using a
>TMO and PocketLOGGER, I know that the ECM reacts within
*seconds* to
>changes in air flow or fuel mixture.
After I did this
mod and reset the ECM my engine died a couple times when
returning to idle
from normal RMPs (i.e. 3000-3300), like it was having a
hard time "catching"
itself before it died completely. I also noticed my
engine's idle speed
lowered by about 100 RPM. This behavior persisted for
about 5-10
minutes. If the ECM can react that fast, do you have any idea
why this
would happen?
T.J. 1992 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 08:32:17
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Questions on Turbo Setups
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Paul @
Diablo Enterprises <
Team3S@DiabloEnterprises.com>
>
I've got two questions.
> 1. Is it bad for twin turbo setups if the
intercooler piping is longer for one turbo than the other?
No !!!! the
output from the two turbos merges at the 'Y' pipe so the pressure
is
equalized anyway.
> 2. Would it be more effective if the
intercoolers were before the turbos?
No again --- while you want the
intake air as cool as possible there is no way
to cool the intake
charge below ambient unless you use an AC unit. The
turbos heat the intake
charge by compression heating, heat transfer from the
turbos and the
inefficiencies of the turbos ---- the goal of the intercooler is to
remove
as much of the heat added by the turbos as
possible.
Jim
Berry
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#651
***************************************
