Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth   Tuesday, October 16 2001   Volume 01 : Number 647




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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:02:36 -0400
From: "Roger J. Roskam" <roger.roskam@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: OT: Insurance Rates

> For whatever good it will do for you, I am 54 with a clean record. State
> farm charges me 362 every 6 months for 100/300k, um 30/60; 0 deductible
for
> collision and comphrehensive.

Let me put things in perspective:

In 1995, 28 years old, clean record, married (it helps at this age):

Prudential (my then-current auto & home company) would not insure my Twin
Turbo, and Progressive took $165/month.  That was with $500 comp & $1000
collision deductibles.

What made me mad -- while I was car-shopping, I asked my agent about a Trans
Am or Corvette, and he stated that Pru would insure it for ~$100/month.  He
also stated that my rates couldn't get much higher than that on any other
vehicle.  I bought my 91 Stealth, thinking I was OK, and he let me know that
Pru wouldn't touch it for any price.

Bottom line:  ask your agent, be very specific about the car (you may need a
sample VIN), and shop around.  At age 19, the insurance may be more than the
payments, especially if you get a ticket.  And believe me, you will get a
ticket at age 19 while driving a land rocket.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:03:16 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Insurance

This form of estimating insurance is highly inaccurate. You need to just
call around and get some quotes. For example, when i lived in Tn, i was
paying $110/month for full coverage on my 91 VR-4. I moved to Az and it
went up to $230/mo. The only thing that changed was my zipcode, so what
someone pays in another location may or may not have any bearing on what
you pay. (even if you are twins with the same driving record)

Wayne

At 05:31 PM 10/15/01 , Thomas Jeys wrote:
>I am 19 and I pay 216 a month with progressive.  I do get their discount for
>a (so far) perfect driving record, good student, and defensive driving
>course.
>
>T.J.
>1992 3000GT VR-4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:16:54 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:(off topic) Insurance

Unfortunately its kinda silly to ask people on the internet what they pay
for insurance.  The only thing that matters is what price can YOU get
insurance for...  If someone says they are paying $50 a month, does that
mean you should expect to get that deal?  They might live in the middle of
nowhere, drive 15 miles a year, have incredibly high deductibles, own two
houses, be 90 years old and married with fifteen kids and a dog.

It just doesn't matter what others pay - its what the companies want to
charge YOU that matters.  Even folks in the same city can pay vastly
different rates depending on exactly where in that city they live or their
particular situation.

My only advice is to call every insurance company you can find and
compromise on one that'll give good service (actually being willing to PAY
for legitimate claims if you ever have to make one) and a balance with cost.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:51:02 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP  (crank) on N/A

I was watching some of those import drags on Speedvision  and if I recall
correctly they got folks in the low 9's with FWD --- that ain't too shabby.

        Jim Berry
===============================================


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff VanOrsdal <jeffv@1nce.com>

> The best FWD nitrous times are around 13.8 right now.  The best FWD turbo
> time is about 13.2.  One of the Florida guys just ran a 14.7@93 in a stock
> 94 R/T NA with street tires.
                               <snip>
> I'm selling out to AWD as soon as possible.  Driving my car is more work
> than fun and it's depressing to have a motor that's capable of so much power
> and not being able to DO anything with it. If the car was RWD I'd keep
> working on it, but FWD is just too limiting IMHO.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:08:41 -0400
From: Patrick Smyth <smythpal@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Team3S: srs and octane

Sorry Rich - Octane is a marketing name I chose for the company, absolutely
nothing to do with fuel.

Pat

At 11:20 AM 10/15/01 -0500, Merritt wrote:
>Pat:
>
>Where you been, bro?  We've had zillions of questions here about octane
>boosters, race gas, what octane does and so on, and there you are -- a true
>expert on the subject -- just a-lurkin' out there. Don't be so shy. Jump in
>next time an octane question comes around on the guitar (as Arlo Guthrie
>might say).
>
>Sorry, I don't know the answer to your SRS question.
>
>Rich
>
>At 11:58 AM 10/15/01 -0400, Patrick Smyth wrote:
> >I've been lurking for quite some time. What a great source of info!!!
> >My srs light has been on for 3 years <snip>
> >Pat Smyth, 92 Stealth RT/TT
>President
>Octane Systems Inc.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:11:37 -0400
From: Patrick Smyth <smythpal@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Team3S: srs light question

Thanks Forest,

Tried the 10 on and off's - no joy. I'll check signs of electrical
corrosion between the terminal and the bracket on the impact sensors next.

Pat

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Insurance

Ditto:

Amazingly enough, my insurance dropped 30% when I left Tulsa, for San
Jose, CA.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Wayne wrote:

> This form of estimating insurance is highly inaccurate. You need to just
> call around and get some quotes. For example, when i lived in Tn, i was
> paying $110/month for full coverage on my 91 VR-4. I moved to Az and it
> went up to $230/mo. The only thing that changed was my zipcode, so what
> someone pays in another location may or may not have any bearing on what
> you pay. (even if you are twins with the same driving record)
>
> Wayne
>
>
> At 05:31 PM 10/15/01 , Thomas Jeys wrote:
> >I am 19 and I pay 216 a month with progressive.  I do get their discount for
> >a (so far) perfect driving record, good student, and defensive driving
> >course.
> >
> >T.J.
> >1992 3000GT VR-4
Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:14:49 -0500
From: "Nemisis" <nemisis@vci.net>
Subject: Team3S: Weight of Spyder vs. Coupe

Hey Everyone,

I know this is covered in the FAQ but I keep getting conflicting
information. The main reason im asking this is because the first thing I get
from people when I say I have a spyder is "Heavy" and I'm really trying to
figure out just what the diffrence in weight is. According to the FAQ the
Stock 95' VR-4 has a curb weight of 3,781lbs vs 3,803 for that of a 95' VR-4
Spyder.  So if these numbers are true.. where does everyone get the argument
on a spyders being 300lbs heavier? Any clarification would be appreciated..

God Bless,

Jon
95' VR-4 Spyder

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:07:25 -0500
From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Weight of Spyder vs. Coupe

I'm not 100% sure how they come up with their numbers.  My car was 4025lbs
on the scale in Ennis, TX (Texas Motorplex) with a little over half a tank
of gas without me in it.

jeff
'95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'01 Chevrolet Silverado HD Duramax

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Nemisis" <nemisis@vci.net>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:14 PM
Subject: Team3S: Weight of Spyder vs. Coupe


> Hey Everyone,
>
> I know this is covered in the FAQ but I keep getting conflicting
> information. The main reason im asking this is because the first thing I
get
> from people when I say I have a spyder is "Heavy" and I'm really trying to
> figure out just what the diffrence in weight is. According to the FAQ the
> Stock 95' VR-4 has a curb weight of 3,781lbs vs 3,803 for that of a 95'
VR-4
> Spyder.  So if these numbers are true.. where does everyone get the
argument
> on a spyders being 300lbs heavier? Any clarification would be
appreciated..
>
> God Bless,
>
> Jon
> 95' VR-4 Spyder

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:16:58 -0700
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Subject: Team3S: OT: Short Notice For 60k Clinic - Vancouver (PDX) Area

All:

I am doing a 60k for another list member this weekend (10/20) if
anyone is interested in watching/learning.  We were going to give
more notice to the group, but SNAFU's in coordinating parts only
let us get firm on the date earlier today.

Please reply directly to me OFF THE LIST if you are interested
in showing up so I can give directions.

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 05:35:17 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: Team3S: OT: Finished website. Page for good buys on mods

Hello everyone. I finally got the finishing touches done on the website.
Under the Favorites tab I have added a kind of price watch on 3S related
mods. The list is short so far, but I would like it to grow for
everyone's benefit. If you can contribute to the search for good deals,
please let me know :)

Sorry for the OT post.
Thanks!

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:43:04 -0400
From: "Lorne Silkes" <vr4@cwia.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Weight of Spyder vs. Coupe

Friday night at the Quickening, my 94 VR4 with 3/4 tank of gas, nothing
removed and with probably 50 lbs of luggage
wieghed in at 4050 with me in the car (I'm about 190), so the Spyders are
about maybe 250 lbs heaviers or so.

Lorne
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Weight of Spyder vs. Coupe

> I'm not 100% sure how they come up with their numbers.  My car was 4025lbs
> on the scale in Ennis, TX (Texas Motorplex) with a little over half a tank
> of gas without me in it.
>
> jeff
> '95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
> '01 Chevrolet Silverado HD Duramax
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nemisis" <nemisis@vci.net>
> To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 11:14 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Weight of Spyder vs. Coupe
>
> > Hey Everyone,
> >
> > I know this is covered in the FAQ but I keep getting conflicting
> > information. The main reason im asking this is because the first thing I
> get
> > from people when I say I have a spyder is "Heavy" and I'm really trying
to
> > figure out just what the diffrence in weight is. According to the FAQ
the
> > Stock 95' VR-4 has a curb weight of 3,781lbs vs 3,803 for that of a 95'
> VR-4
> > Spyder.  So if these numbers are true.. where does everyone get the
> argument
> > on a spyders being 300lbs heavier? Any clarification would be
> appreciated..
> >
> > God Bless,
> >
> > Jon
> > 95' VR-4 Spyder

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:23:21 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Insurance

>Amazingly enough, my insurance dropped 30% when I left Tulsa, for San
>Jose, CA.

That's probably because nobody actually lives in San Jose. They all live
over the mountain out in the valley, and commute 100 miles per day to get
to work. After 5 pm, San Joes (as we say in Iowa) is a ghost town, so you
can't get into an accident with anybody.

At least that's what a cabbie told me when I asked where all the houses
were amongst the strip malls and high rises. "Sheeet, senor, nobody can
afford to live here," he said.

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:53:16 -0400
From: Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com
Subject: Team3S: TMO Datalogger for Sale?

I think I saw a post here a few days ago about a TMO Datalogger system for
sale. If you are here, please e-mail me.

Thanks.

Jeff W.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:58:36 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: Team3S: Strut tower bar, front - rear

Brett,

Chris is working on that as we speak.
Glad you hare happy with the front strut tower brace.

All's well that ends well.

Jim

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brett Hill [mailto:bhill2@mindspring.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:47 AM
To: NETM1NDER@aol.com
Subject: RE: Strut tower bar, front

Dude, I just got my bar in yesterday.  I just about had a joy-gasim the
thing is absolutely beautiful.  I am really sorry that I ever doubted you,
damn it looks good.  Though this beauty has arisen another question.  Can
you make a rear strut tower bar to match the beautiful piece that I have
under the hood?  If so how much would it be?  Depends on how much as to when
I could afford one.  Once again - you do hella good work.

Brett Hill

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:59:20 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: Team3S: RE: 3S-Racers: Strut tower bar, front - rear

I am extremely interested in how this changes the way your car handles,
Brett.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Floyd, Jim [SMTP:Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:59 AM
> To: 'bhill2@mindspring.com'
> Cc: 'Chris Thorne'; 'Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st';
> '3sracers@speedtoys.com'; 'stealth@starnet.net'; 'stealth@stls.verio.net'
> Subject: 3S-Racers: Strut tower bar, front - rear
>
> Brett,
>
> Chris is working on that as we speak.
> Glad you hare happy with the front strut tower brace.
>
> All's well that ends well.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brett Hill [mailto:bhill2@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 7:47 AM
> To: NETM1NDER@aol.com
> Subject: RE: Strut tower bar, front
>
>
> Dude, I just got my bar in yesterday.  I just about had a joy-gasim the
> thing is absolutely beautiful.  I am really sorry that I ever doubted you,
> damn it looks good.  Though this beauty has arisen another question.  Can
> you make a rear strut tower bar to match the beautiful piece that I have
> under the hood?  If so how much would it be?  Depends on how much as to
> when
> I could afford one.  Once again - you do hella good work.
>
> Brett Hill
>
> --
> To subscribe: Email majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of 'subscribe
> Email To unsub: Email majordomo@speedtoys.com with a body of 'unsubscribe
> 3sracers'
> "Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars."

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:54:50 -0700
From: Michael Crisfield <mcrisfield@ftmcdowell.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 350 HP  (crank) on N/A

All -

I've been lurking on this list for awhile and thanks, I have learned
quite a bit about the turbo models (I own a 91 3000GT SL AUTO).  One thing I
hear a lot of is (not just on this list), don't tune an NA..just buy a TT.
Here are my top ten reasons for not selling my NA and buying a TT.

1)  I've rebuilt the motor (along with lost of other misc. replacements) and
will be rebuilding the tranny with shift kit and trans cooler (recommended
by DSM racer) by next year.  If I sell I'm not going to get out what I put
in - not even close.

2)  Dynamic racing claims that 5 staged upgrades (for around $5K), will get
my car to 300hp without NOS (same as my model year TT), 370 hp with NOS.

3)  The difference in MY insurance will be about $40 a month if I buy a TT
($480 a year).

4)  I haven't heard anything good about TT trannys.  I've heard of waiting
lists and estimates of $4000 just for parts.  One guy swore off 3000GTs for
Eclipses because he claimed he didn't want to spend any more time or money
rebuilding his transmission (he was racing).

5)  This is my daily driver so the AUTO is kinda nice.

6)  The AWD would be nice for autocrossing but my wife would shoot me if I
took off for a
    weekend and spent $300+ without her.

8)  Despite FWD my car handles pretty well even though my suspension has
130K on it.

9)  I love the way my car looks and drives I just don't wanna get smoked by
every high school
    punk with a mustang or civic.

10) There are plenty of 300hp 3000GT TTs out there but how many 300hp NAs?

Anyway, I'm saving for my tranny rebuild now.  If I get the cash after that
I plan on getting a GTECH to monitor and post each upgrade/tweak I perform.
My only fear is that I'll drop 5K in the next few years, and end up with a
car that's still in high 14s (new Mustang GTs run 14 flat so my goal is high
13's).

Michael - 91 3000GT SL AUTO
(the few, the proud, the slow)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Zobel, Kurt [mailto:KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com]
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 10:35 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 350 HP (crank) on N/A

Yes, if the car is older than 3-4 years, selling it and buying the turbo is
the way to go.
But it is fun to tinker with the NT while you have it.

The weight penalty is definitely a factor on the track, but sort of evens
out with the AWD and better brakes.

The insurance is not much of an issue, from quite a few prior posts I've
seen.
Virtually no difference in insurance or extended warranty coverage. 

Regards,
Kurt  96 NT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:34 PM
To: Alex Pedenko; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP (crank) on N/A

on the plus side --- the NA is several hundred pounds lighter and the
insurance has to be considerably less.

        Jim Berry
===========================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Pedenko <apedenko@home.com>

> JMHO,
>
>     Isn't it cheaper (and better in the long run) to take the money from
> those mods, plus sell the NA car, and buy a vr4? I mean 125 + the stock
216
> (?) puts you just above the 320 mark of a stock vr4/rt tt? Plus aren't
there
> more mods available for the tt cars? Plus set aside $500, get a Blitz DSBC
> and put yerself up past the 350 mark...
>
>     Don't mean to offend anybody,  just a thought.
>
> Alex
>
> '95 VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP  (crank) on N/A

>> 2) Dynamic racing claims that 5 staged upgrades
>> (for around $5K), will get my car to 300hp without
>> NOS (same as my model year TT), 370 hp with NOS.

With all due respect to Matt at DR, to get 300 HP out of your NA
engine will require the same airflow that the TT has. Please explain
how this is possible without forced induction or nitrous (and without
revving to 9,000 RPM).

Oh ....  don't mod a 3S NA ... just buy a TT/VR4. :)

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crisfield" <mcrisfield@ftmcdowell.org>
To: "Zobel, Kurt" <KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:54 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 350 HP (crank) on N/A

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:19:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP  (crank) on N/A

Timing, compression, port work..its not that hard, just pricey.

bring it up to 12:1 or so compression with fuel and timing control, watch
it make some ugly power.

Thats how the N/A MK3 Supra people do it relatively easy.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jeff Lucius wrote:

> >> 2) Dynamic racing claims that 5 staged upgrades
> >> (for around $5K), will get my car to 300hp without
> >> NOS (same as my model year TT), 370 hp with NOS.
>
> With all due respect to Matt at DR, to get 300 HP out of your NA
> engine will require the same airflow that the TT has. Please explain
> how this is possible without forced induction or nitrous (and without
> revving to 9,000 RPM).
>
> Oh ....  don't mod a 3S NA ... just buy a TT/VR4. :)
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP (crank) on N/A

Uh, yeah. Sure makes me feel silly buying 15G turbos, when all I had
to do was *bypass* my turbos and put high-compression pistons in to
get 300 HP. :) NOT.

Still wondering how you get more air into the engine. Higher CR only
marginally increases HP output - at the penalty of increased chances
for detonation.

Increasing the CR increases the thermal efficiency of an engine. A
change from 10:1 to 12:1 increases output by 5% (see Michael
Ferrara's “Boost vs. compression, part 1”, Turbo and High-Tech
Performance, January 1999 for the equation). That means the 222 HP
DOHC could increase to 233 HP. So where do the other 67 ponies come
from? Fuel and timing won't make up for the lack of air.

Would someone from our group with a 300 HP 6G72 NA (no turbo or
nitrous) please step forward and tell us how you did it?

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Jeff Lucius" <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP (crank) on N/A

Timing, compression, port work..its not that hard, just pricey.

bring it up to 12:1 or so compression with fuel and timing control,
watch it make some ugly power.

Thats how the N/A MK3 Supra people do it relatively easy.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 350 HP (crank) on N/A

Its very possible..if you spend money in the right places.

Porting/flow work, ignition control (good power to be found there), fuel
control, and compression.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Jeff Lucius wrote:

> Uh, yeah. Sure makes me feel silly buying 15G turbos, when all I had
> to do was *bypass* my turbos and put high-compression pistons in to
> get 300 HP. :) NOT.
>
> Still wondering how you get more air into the engine. Higher CR only
> marginally increases HP output - at the penalty of increased chances
> for detonation.
>
> Increasing the CR increases the thermal efficiency of an engine. A
> change from 10:1 to 12:1 increases output by 5% (see Michael
> Ferrara's “Boost vs. compression, part 1”, Turbo and High-Tech
> Performance, January 1999 for the equation). That means the 222 HP
> DOHC could increase to 233 HP. So where do the other 67 ponies come
> from? Fuel and timing won't make up for the lack of air.
>
> Would someone from our group with a 300 HP 6G72 NA (no turbo or
> nitrous) please step forward and tell us how you did it?
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:08:57 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

I received and installed my Stillen downpipe this weekend (um... in the pits
at the track) and gutted my (um... extra) rear precat.  Yay for removing
post-turbo restrictions! 

Installation:  The Stillen pipe fits, but not without some coercion from a
rubber mallet to "walk" it up the threads of the bolts on the O2 sensor
housings.  I plugged the holes for the O2 sensors with the provided plugs
since my '95 only has 2 O2 sensors.  Bolting the pipe up to my HKS exhaust
was interesting as the Stillen pipe wanted to push the cat-back exhaust all
the way toward the driver's side of the car, forcing it to rest on the
exhaust hanger bolt (not good).   I took it to an exhaust shop and they
heated and bent the HKS pipe about 0.5cm toward the passenger side of the
car so it didn't rest on the bolt.  That solved the problem (I think).  I
may have heard a "tink" from the exhaust hitting something when I started
the car once or twice, but I'm not sure.  The engine certainly does move
around when you start it cold!  The pipe also runs REALLY close to the
transfer case, but I don't think it's a problem.

Performance:  Duh... kick-@$$  I get full boost at least 500RPM sooner and
it holds more boost to redline.  Throttle response is improved, and the
engine doesn't seem at all strained at 7000RPM.  Feels like it could do 8000
no problem.  It's a little louder than with just the HKS cat-back, but not a
huge amount louder.  The guys at the autocross said it's relatively quiet,
compared to the 'vettes with Borlas, but you could still tell when I'm on
it.  It's near the volume where I'd consider it a bit annoying in
residential areas, but I'm not romping on it in my neighborhood anyway.

Installation website and pictures are coming when I have time.

- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Black 3000GT VR-4 (6MT, AWD, 4WS, ECS)          36,000 mi
   Track Setup:  FIPK, HKS TT Exhaust, GReddy PRofecA,
   GReddy TypeS BPV, Stillen DP, TEC Front ST Brace,
   Cusco Rear ST Brace, Optima RedTop, SpeedBleeders,
   Porterfield Cryo Front Rotors, R4S Front Pads,
   Firehawk SZ50EP 245/45/ZR17 @43/37(AutoX), '94 VR-4 Wheels
'94 Algae-Blue "fun to slide around corners" Corolla 80,000mi
http://www.speedtoys.com/~egross
- -------------------------------------------------------------

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:09:16 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: TEC Front Strut Tower Brace Report

In summary, I'm very pleased with the brace's quality, performance, and
looks and Chris is a pleasure to do business with.

The brace:  very sturdy; fits like a glove; battery bracket is beautifully
integrated and holds the battery more securely than the stock bracket;
installation was pretty simple; powder coating looks great.

Performance:  I noticed a marked increase in steering precision/feedback
(wasn't expecting this).  There's more force "pulling" the wheel back toward
the center when you turn, and there's less play or delay in the steering
input reaching the wheels.  Maybe a tad more chassis vibration transmitted
to your seat, but not an annoying level by any means.  Road feel through the
chassis and steering wheel is enhanced as well.  This brace, coupled with a
rear brace seem to have removed much of the understeer in my VR-4.  In fact,
I got tail-happy in the slaloms a few times when I was experimenting.  I was
very happy with the performance of my car at this weekend's auto-x and
driving school(9 hours) - see that report(coming) for more.

Chris (Thorne):  He was very up-front during the development process and
delivered as promised.  The brace is expensive, but after seeing it and
installing it, I don't have so much of a problem with the cost.  Further, I
originally ordered a "Black Chrome" brace, thinking that it was black with a
mirror finish that would match my black car.  I was surprised when I
received my brace and it was a smoky chrome finish.  I thought there'd been
a mistake until Chris explained what Black Chrome is.   At that point, he
offered to exchange mine for a plain black one (I didn't even have to ask).
I paid to send it back (WA to PA) and then he *overnighted* me a new one.
Needless to say I was impressed and have no qualms recommending him as
someone to do business with.

Installation website and pictures of the brace are coming when I have time.

- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Black 3000GT VR-4 (6MT, AWD, 4WS, ECS)          36,000 mi
   Track Setup:  FIPK, HKS TT Exhaust, GReddy PRofecA,
   GReddy TypeS BPV, Stillen DP, TEC Front ST Brace,
   Cusco Rear ST Brace, Optima RedTop, SpeedBleeders,
   Porterfield Cryo Front Rotors, R4S Front Pads,
   Firehawk SZ50EP 245/45/ZR17 @43/37(AutoX), '94 VR-4 Wheels
'94 Algae-Blue "fun to slide around corners" Corolla 80,000mi
http://www.speedtoys.com/~egross
- -------------------------------------------------------------

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:14:04 -0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

I had the same issue when I installed my Stillen DP. I actually had to get
my floor jack underneath(once I had it lined up with the precat bolts) and
slowly jack it up in order to get it on.  I also get that noise when you
first start up car, thought it was just mine.....

Francis
'96 R/T TT
(SAVC-R BC, Spearco WI, Magnacore wires, NGK plugs .32, test pipe, Autometer
Boost Gauge, RPS TCC, HKS MegaFlow intake, freeflow precats, Goodridge Steel
Braided Brake Lines, Porterfield Cryo/Crossdrilled Rotors, R4S pads, 1G DSM
BOV, Ground Control springs(500/300 F/R), Supra Fuel Pump, Borla Exhaust,
Stille DP, O2 Simulators)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik [mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 2:09 PM
To: Team3S List (E-mail); Starnet 3Si Mailing List (E-mail); 3sracers
List (E-mail); Nws3 (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

I received and installed my Stillen downpipe this weekend (um... in the pits
at the track) and gutted my (um... extra) rear precat.  Yay for removing
post-turbo restrictions! 

Installation:  The Stillen pipe fits, but not without some coercion from a
rubber mallet to "walk" it up the threads of the bolts on the O2 sensor
housings.  I plugged the holes for the O2 sensors with the provided plugs
since my '95 only has 2 O2 sensors.  Bolting the pipe up to my HKS exhaust
was interesting as the Stillen pipe wanted to push the cat-back exhaust all
the way toward the driver's side of the car, forcing it to rest on the
exhaust hanger bolt (not good).   I took it to an exhaust shop and they
heated and bent the HKS pipe about 0.5cm toward the passenger side of the
car so it didn't rest on the bolt.  That solved the problem (I think).  I
may have heard a "tink" from the exhaust hitting something when I started
the car once or twice, but I'm not sure.  The engine certainly does move
around when you start it cold!  The pipe also runs REALLY close to the
transfer case, but I don't think it's a problem.

Performance:  Duh... kick-@$$  I get full boost at least 500RPM sooner and
it holds more boost to redline.  Throttle response is improved, and the
engine doesn't seem at all strained at 7000RPM.  Feels like it could do 8000
no problem.  It's a little louder than with just the HKS cat-back, but not a
huge amount louder.  The guys at the autocross said it's relatively quiet,
compared to the 'vettes with Borlas, but you could still tell when I'm on
it.  It's near the volume where I'd consider it a bit annoying in
residential areas, but I'm not romping on it in my neighborhood anyway.

Installation website and pictures are coming when I have time.

- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Black 3000GT VR-4 (6MT, AWD, 4WS, ECS)          36,000 mi
   Track Setup:  FIPK, HKS TT Exhaust, GReddy PRofecA,
   GReddy TypeS BPV, Stillen DP, TEC Front ST Brace,
   Cusco Rear ST Brace, Optima RedTop, SpeedBleeders,
   Porterfield Cryo Front Rotors, R4S Front Pads,
   Firehawk SZ50EP 245/45/ZR17 @43/37(AutoX), '94 VR-4 Wheels
'94 Algae-Blue "fun to slide around corners" Corolla 80,000mi
http://www.speedtoys.com/~egross

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:21:31 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Top 10 reasons to keep an NA & not trade for a TT

Hey, Michael,

I've changed the subject line for posterity...  I've left your entire 9
reasons (where's #7?) below, but as another NT owner ('94 Stealth) who is
also planning to mod mine and *not* trade up to a turbo, I have to point out
that it should NOT cost $5k to get you into the low 14's.  Your car can run
high-14s NOW.  About a month ago, a couple in FL with a 5-spd '94 R/T ran
14.71 (he) and 14.84 (she) in the 1/4 with just a K&N.  They're running
again Thursday with a couple of timing tweaks and they hope to break 14.6 -
stay tuned (so to speak...).  :-)  They expect to add a custom exhaust and
get to 14 very soon.  Since they are not Team3S members (they only have
WebTV - no computer), I'll share some of his theory with the list in a
separate post.  You'll read tech arguments on the list on how you can and
can't get 300hp on an NA, but from the above you should note that a big part
of the formula for winning times is obviously technique.

Although the most popular method for launching with our cars (NT & TT) is
with 6k clutch dumps, unless you've got huge racing slicks and one of those
massive 2900lb clutches, that is the *wrong* way to achieve great times.
But it is the *right* way to protect your drive train from the forces of a
launch.  The right way is to get hooked up as quickly as possible - a fine
line of finding the right revs for your car:  You want to be in the power
band, but low enough not to bog and high enough to launch with minimal wheel
spin and without superheating the face of the clutch.  If you do either (or
both), you can lose between 1/2 to 1 second in a run.  But the right way is
also the hardest on the drive train, since there is nothing like wheelspin
or clutch slip to "cushion" it from transferring all the power from the
engine to the road.

As to doing all that work to your engine, you might want to consider the
alternative of adding a 5-6 psi supercharger kit (~$4k for stick, $4,500 for
automatic).  5.3 psi gets you just over 300hp, and the maximum street-legal
(and CARB-legal) 6psi yields ~310hp.  Something to think about...

It's hard to say whether your having an automatic will be an advantage or a
disadvantage.  Lots of automatics do very comparable times to the equivalent
stick models at the track.  But what I'm suggesting is that even while
you're deciding what mods to add, you should get out there and practice
technique...  With whatever mods you've got.  If you can't get close to 15
now, with just a K&N, it's probably a good bet that you need a good tuning
and more track time.

JMHO,

Forrest

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Crisfield" <mcrisfield@ftmcdowell.org>
> All -
> I've been lurking on this list for awhile and thanks, I have learned quite
a bit about the turbo models (I own a 91 3000GT SL AUTO).  One thing I hear
a lot of is (not just on this list), don't tune an NA..just buy a TT.
> Here are my top ten reasons for not selling my NA and buying a TT.
> 1)  I've rebuilt the motor (along with lost of other misc. replacements)
and will be rebuilding the tranny with shift kit and trans cooler
(recommended by DSM racer) by next year.  If I sell I'm not going to get out
what I put in - not even close.
> 2)  Dynamic racing claims that 5 staged upgrades (for around $5K), will
get my car to 300hp without NOS (same as my model year TT), 370 hp with NOS.
> 3)  The difference in MY insurance will be about $40 a month if I buy a TT
($480 a year).
> 4)  I haven't heard anything good about TT trannys.  I've heard of waiting
lists and estimates of $4000 just for parts.  One guy swore off 3000GTs for
Eclipses because he claimed he didn't want to spend any more time or money
rebuilding his transmission (he was racing).
> 5)  This is my daily driver so the AUTO is kinda nice.
> 6)  The AWD would be nice for autocrossing but my wife would shoot me if I
took off for a weekend and spent $300+ without her.
> 8)  Despite FWD my car handles pretty well even though my suspension has
130K on it.
> 9)  I love the way my car looks and drives I just don't wanna get smoked
by every high school punk with a mustang or civic.
> 10) There are plenty of 300hp 3000GT TTs out there but how many 300hp NAs?
>
> Anyway, I'm saving for my tranny rebuild now.  If I get the cash after
that
> I plan on getting a GTECH to monitor and post each upgrade/tweak I
perform.
> My only fear is that I'll drop 5K in the next few years, and end up with a
> car that's still in high 14s (new Mustang GTs run 14 flat so my goal is
high
> 13's).
>
> Michael - 91 3000GT SL AUTO
> (the few, the proud, the slow)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:02:44 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re Short notice for 60K ...

All;

For those of you making this "international event", it should prove to be a
fun and informative/greasy time. Meet "shy and retiring Rich" (AKA The
Gunslinger), a "mad capped Canuck", and learn how to do your own 60k at the
same time. Anything not described truthfully here, can only be ascertained
for certain upon attendance ;-) Opportunities like this seldom occur IMHO so
try to make it. Sorry for the short notice (my fault) as my parts drop
shipped to Rich's were not absolutely certain until very recently. That
delay  is the reason for the short head's up on this event. .

Best

Darc

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich" <rleroy@pacifier.com>
To: <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: Short Notice For 60k Clinic - Vancouver (PDX) Area - Canned Reply

> All:
>
> I will be doing Darcy Gunnlaugson's (another Team3S
> admin) 60k on his RT/TT (Canadian version - kinda
> looks like a dog-sled, I think) at my home, starting
> Saturday morning, sometime after I have my morning
> coffee.  No definitive time set, as it may depend on
> how drunk we got the night before & what time we call
> it a night.  ;-)  Likely around 10:00-ish, though.
>
> If you plan on showing up, just let me know.  Early
> arrivers are required to bring lotsa donuts.  For
> those who haven't been here before, here are the
> address & directions:
>
> 15917 NE Union Road, #14
> Ridgefield, WA  98642
> Cell:  360-609-0044
>
> From I-5, take exit #9 (Clark County Fairgrounds).
> At the bottom of the exit, turn east on 179th Street.
> IMMEDIATELY turn south on Union Road, the first
> street to the east and parallel to the freeway.
> Jollies restaurant is on Union Road, in front of you.
> Parallel I-5 south on Union for 0.8 miles (past the
> cemetery) and through the ess turns.  On your left, as
> you exit the ess, is a condominium complex.  Turn into
> the second entrance (~50 yards apart).  Go up the hill
> & turn right, second door on the right - where the
> white van & all the other cars are.
>
> For anyone coming south on I-5, my personal best is
> 62 minutes between Olympia and the exit.  ;-)
>
> Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:20:23 -0400
From: Curtis McConnel <CMcConnel@Pulte.com>
Subject: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

I replaced my injectors to RC 550cc's and was told a washer (can't remember
what exactly it was) fell in the cylinder. Basically my mechanic told me he
has been getting metal shavings out of the cylinder and not sure if it is
still in there. My choice is:

1.pay him appx 20hrs worth of labor to see if it's still in there, if not
and no damage then great (still out the $$)

2. pull all the metal he can then give it back to me.

My question is if I just have him do what he can then give it back is it
possible the "problem has worked it's way out?" I don't see spending this
kind of money (that I don't have) if it's possible the motor is ok. If it
does cause a problem later I can fix it then ( for pretty much the same
price.)

What do you guys think?

Curtis
1995 Vr-4 Spyder

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

No way out buddy..its gotta come apart and get cleaned out..at best youre
looking at a partial teardown with new rings for that one cylinder..at
best.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Curtis McConnel wrote:

> I replaced my injectors to RC 550cc's and was told a washer (can't remember
> what exactly it was) fell in the cylinder. Basically my mechanic told me he
> has been getting metal shavings out of the cylinder and not sure if it is
> still in there. My choice is:
>
> 1.pay him appx 20hrs worth of labor to see if it's still in there, if not
> and no damage then great (still out the $$)
>
> 2. pull all the metal he can then give it back to me.
>
> My question is if I just have him do what he can then give it back is it
> possible the "problem has worked it's way out?" I don't see spending this
> kind of money (that I don't have) if it's possible the motor is ok. If it
> does cause a problem later I can fix it then ( for pretty much the same
> price.)
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> Curtis
> 1995 Vr-4 Spyder

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:27:19 -0400
From: Curtis McConnel <CMcConnel@Pulte.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

Can't I wait it out some? How will I know when it's a major problem if I was
to not tear it down (symptoms)

Curtis

- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler [mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 3:48 PM
To: Curtis McConnel
Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

No way out buddy..its gotta come apart and get cleaned out..at best youre
looking at a partial teardown with new rings for that one cylinder..at
best.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Curtis McConnel wrote:

> I replaced my injectors to RC 550cc's and was told a washer (can't
remember
> what exactly it was) fell in the cylinder. Basically my mechanic told me
he
> has been getting metal shavings out of the cylinder and not sure if it is
> still in there. My choice is:
>
> 1.pay him appx 20hrs worth of labor to see if it's still in there, if not
> and no damage then great (still out the $$)
>
> 2. pull all the metal he can then give it back to me.
>
> My question is if I just have him do what he can then give it back is it
> possible the "problem has worked it's way out?" I don't see spending this
> kind of money (that I don't have) if it's possible the motor is ok. If it
> does cause a problem later I can fix it then ( for pretty much the same
> price.)
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> Curtis
> 1995 Vr-4 Spyder

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:52:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

Sure you can wait it out.

Just buy a new motor instead of a "minor" rebuild.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Curtis McConnel wrote:

> Can't I wait it out some? How will I know when it's a major problem if I was
> to not tear it down (symptoms)
>
> Curtis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 3:48 PM
> To: Curtis McConnel
> Cc: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?
>
>
> No way out buddy..its gotta come apart and get cleaned out..at best youre
> looking at a partial teardown with new rings for that one cylinder..at
> best.
>
> On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Curtis McConnel wrote:
>
> > I replaced my injectors to RC 550cc's and was told a washer (can't
> remember
> > what exactly it was) fell in the cylinder. Basically my mechanic told me
> he
> > has been getting metal shavings out of the cylinder and not sure if it is
> > still in there. My choice is:
> >
> > 1.pay him appx 20hrs worth of labor to see if it's still in there, if not
> > and no damage then great (still out the $$)
> >
> > 2. pull all the metal he can then give it back to me.
> >
> > My question is if I just have him do what he can then give it back is it
> > possible the "problem has worked it's way out?" I don't see spending this
> > kind of money (that I don't have) if it's possible the motor is ok. If it
> > does cause a problem later I can fix it then ( for pretty much the same
> > price.)
> >
> > What do you guys think?
> >
> > Curtis
> > 1995 Vr-4 Spyder

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:30:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

There are only two ways into the cylinder - the spark plug hole and
the intake valve (through the intake manifold) - assuming the exhaust
side is not open. Both areas should be covered with clean rags to
prevent this sort of accident when changing things such as spark
plugs and injectors. Do not take the chance that any metal/plastic
particle might make it past the rings or through the exhaust valves
and into the turbo. If that happens, you'll need an engine rebuild
plus be replacing a turbo. Didn't you just upgrade turbos?

Gotta agree with Mohler on this. You have to be sure there is
*nothing* metallic or plastic loose in that cylinder before you ever
turn the engine over. Maybe there is a way to vacuum stuff out then
inspect with a small camera? If the mechanic made this serious
mistake, it is his financial responsibility to make it right.

How to change fuel injectors (note rags):
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/nlucius/n-2-injectors.htm

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis McConnel" <CMcConnel@Pulte.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

I replaced my injectors to RC 550cc's and was told a washer (can't
remember what exactly it was) fell in the cylinder.
<snip>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:33:33 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

> Can't I wait it out some? How will I know when it's a major
> problem if I was to not tear it down (symptoms)

If there's an object in the cylinder, its already a major problem.  You've
probably got dings in the top of the chamber in the head (which will cause
hotspots) and probably some valve problems in that cylinder as well.  If the
metal fragments are large enough the rings might be okay...

Don't run it, pull it apart.  I hope it's the front bank - easier to work
on.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:53:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

> Gotta agree with Mohler on this. You have to be sure there is
> *nothing* metallic or plastic loose in that cylinder before you ever
> turn the engine over. Maybe there is a way to vacuum stuff out then
> inspect with a small camera? If the mechanic made this serious
> mistake, it is his financial responsibility to make it right.
- ---
Hes already beyond hope of a "cleaning" as there is damage already (thats
what I gathered from the opriginal posting)

If the original part was in there..intact..and would fit out the hole..no
problem.  And scopes to inspect a cylinder are available, although few
shops have them.

> How to change fuel injectors (note rags):
> http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/nlucius/n-2-injectors.htm
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Curtis McConnel" <CMcConnel@Pulte.com>
> To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 3:20 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?
>
> I replaced my injectors to RC 550cc's and was told a washer (can't
> remember what exactly it was) fell in the cylinder.
> <snip>

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:44:53 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

Hey Erik, Glad to hear you're happy with it.  I hope Rich likes his as well. 
I can still get them for almost the same price as I got them for you so if
anyone's interested, let me know. 
I also had a little resistance when pushing the pipe up, but it was minor
enough to just give it a good whack and it popped in place. 
I had my car at the Quickening this weekend and there were cars with stock
downpipes just as loud if not louder than mine, but I still love the extra
power and added volume. 
The pipe was in fact really close to the transfer case, but I don't plan on
letting my x-fer case go anywhere without the rest of the car.  =)
My custom exhaust bolted right up to the dowpipe, so I'm guessing it may have
been the aftermarket exhasut you have?  Maybe the hanger is a little off?  I
know my exhaust was custom fitted so it lined up the same as the stock pieces.
As for that sound when you start the car, I don't get it with mine, where's
it sound like it's coming from?  What kind of sound is it?  Maybe I can try
to find a potential problem area that I can inform Stillen about. 

Paul Butkiewicz
The Stillen Downpipe Selling Guy...
Diablo Enterprises
Norwood, MA  02062-4012
Phone/Fax (781) 769-4180
http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/
http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:06:12 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

> Hey Erik, Glad to hear you're happy with it. 

I yeah, I can't believe I forgot to put a plug in for Paul's business - I
had a favorable experience with him as well.  Stillen's shipping delays
leave something to be desired, but that's not his fault.  He kept me posted
as to the status of the order and gave me a great price, so he gets the
thumbs up from me as well.

> I also had a little resistance when pushing the pipe up, but
> it was minor enough to just give it a good whack and it popped
> in place. 

You have a 1G, right?  Maybe things are twisted slightly between 1G and 2G
(along with the significant rotation of the bolts on the rear precat
housing).  I had to repeatedly smack it with a rubber mallet to get it on
those bolts and it took 2 people to crank on it enough to get the 3" end to
line up with the rest of the exhaust.

> My custom exhaust bolted right up to the dowpipe, so I'm
> guessing it may have been the aftermarket exhasut you have?

I don't think so as I had it bolted up to the stock downpipe/cat and
everything fit perfectly.

> Maybe the hanger is a little off? 

I don't think so, but I'll get under there and check things out again when I
have some free time.

> As for that sound when you start the car, I don't get it with
> mine, where's it sound like it's coming from?  What kind of sound is it? 

Well, it's only one "tink" and barely noticeable if you don't know what
you're looking for.  It comes from directly under the rear of the center
console.  Before I had the HKS pipe heated and bent, the HKS pipe rested
against the bolt on the exhaust hanger about 12" to the rear of the joint
where the rear of the stock cat bolts up.  As the engine moved through
normal operation, the HKS pipe would clank against the bolt head and make a
very loud sound in the cabin and the vibration could be felt in the e-brake,
seat, and floorpan.  Outside, you didn't hear much of anything.  The sound I
get now is a muffled version of the above - but only one clink, and only
sometimes when I start the car.  I'm pretty sure it's the pipe hitting the
bolt as the engine rocks a little more than normal upon startup.

- --Erik

P.S.  Dynamat melts when applied as padding to exhaust parts.  It still
dampens when melted, though :-)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:27:23 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

 >  I yeah, I can't believe I forgot to put a plug in for Paul's business - I
 >  had a favorable experience with him as well.  He kept me posted
 >  as to the status of the order and gave me a great price, so he gets the
 >  thumbs up from me as well.
HEY, THAT'S ME!!!  =) 
Thanks Erik the best business is always by word of mouth!

 >  You have a 1G, right?  Maybe things are twisted slightly between 1G and 2G
 >  (along with the significant rotation of the bolts on the rear precat
 >  housing).  I had to repeatedly smack it with a rubber mallet to get it on
 >  those bolts and it took 2 people to crank on it enough to get the 3" end
to
 >  line up with the rest of the exhaust.
Yes I do, I've got a 92RT/TT.  The pipe lines up on a different angle, so
that's probably what it was.  But for Stillen to be able to incorporate both
generations into one pipe I guess there would have to be a little compromise.
 As long as it's a good tight fit, I dont care if I need to give it a "love
tap" to get it in there.  
 
 >  I don't think so as I had it bolted up to the stock downpipe/cat and
 >  everything fit perfectly.
Hmm... Mine was the same way, maybe I just got lucky?  When you took the
stock DP off, did you notice the aftermarket exhaust move at all?  It may be
possible the cat-back just moved.  I'm not familiar with the mouting of your
particular exhaust, so I'll just back off this subject.
Like I said before, I'm very happy with your exhaust, and be sure to let me
know if you need anything else.

Paul Butkiewicz
Diablo Enterprises
Norwood, MA  02062-4012
Phone/Fax (781) 769-4180
http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/
http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:28:22 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

At 06:44 PM 10/16/01 EDT, DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com wrote:
>Hey Erik, Glad to hear you're happy with it.  I hope Rich likes his as
well. 

It came Friday. I'm waiting for a chance to put it in. Haven't even opened
the box yet.
Rich

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:56:36 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Redlined Engine & Knocking/Ticking Sound?

Hi guys, my engine started going crazy today.  I was on Rte. 1 today and was
pulling away from a red light.  I was about to shift into third
(35MPH,RPM~3.5k?).  I clutched in and the engine shot up to 7k RPM.  I
quickly pulled off the road, shut off the engine, and coasted into a parking
lot.  What happened??
For my theory, you need to understand, I was about to go get some emmissions
testing done to see what kind of numbers the Stillen DP could provide. I went
to AutoZone and asked the manager if the EmmissionPass stuff was ok to put in
my car.  Knowing he was a mechanic for a while from talking to him before, I
trusted his opinion.  Now onto my theory:
The O2 sensor gave a very bad reading to the ECU due to the shit that I put
in the gas tank.  Then the engine adjusted the idle speed to 7000 RPM
thinking the engine was about to stall. 
Does this make any sense to anyone? 
Anyway, after I shut off the engine and checked all the hoses and everything,
I decided I'd start it back up and see what happens.  Everything ran ok, but
I got a rattling/knocking sound.  It sounded like the "lifter tick" but
extremely loud and got much worse as the RPM's went up.  I think maybe
there's something wrong with a rocker maybe?  I took the front valve cover
off and everything looks ok.  Any ideas?  Someone please help, I need to get
a winter car and I'm wondering if I should try to fix this now and get the
winter car in a few weeks or just get the winter car now and put the Stealth
away and start tearing apart the engine.
Thanks guys,
Paul Butkiewicz
Diablo Enterprises
Norwood, MA  02062-4012
http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/
http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Redlined Engine & Knocking/Ticking Sound?

Oddly enough on TWO occasions, we had a very momentary thorttle-stick in
our 95 VR4 (at random positions) that manifested itself in continued
acceleration when I lifted off the gas to coast for a light.

I wouldnt rule out a sticking linkage..etc.  Go spray lube em down..this
is one of those preventative manitenance things the books never tell ya
about.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2001 DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com wrote:

> Hi guys, my engine started going crazy today.  I was on Rte. 1 today and was
> pulling away from a red light.  I was about to shift into third
> (35MPH,RPM~3.5k?).  I clutched in and the engine shot up to 7k RPM.  I
> quickly pulled off the road, shut off the engine, and coasted into a parking
> lot.  What happened??
> For my theory, you need to understand, I was about to go get some emmissions
> testing done to see what kind of numbers the Stillen DP could provide. I went
> to AutoZone and asked the manager if the EmmissionPass stuff was ok to put in
> my car.  Knowing he was a mechanic for a while from talking to him before, I
> trusted his opinion.  Now onto my theory:
> The O2 sensor gave a very bad reading to the ECU due to the shit that I put
> in the gas tank.  Then the engine adjusted the idle speed to 7000 RPM
> thinking the engine was about to stall. 
> Does this make any sense to anyone? 
> Anyway, after I shut off the engine and checked all the hoses and everything,
> I decided I'd start it back up and see what happens.  Everything ran ok, but
> I got a rattling/knocking sound.  It sounded like the "lifter tick" but
> extremely loud and got much worse as the RPM's went up.  I think maybe
> there's something wrong with a rocker maybe?  I took the front valve cover
> off and everything looks ok.  Any ideas?  Someone please help, I need to get
> a winter car and I'm wondering if I should try to fix this now and get the
> winter car in a few weeks or just get the winter car now and put the Stealth
> away and start tearing apart the engine.
> Thanks guys,
> Paul Butkiewicz
> Diablo Enterprises
> Norwood, MA  02062-4012
> http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/
> http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:06:45 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe Report

In a message dated 10/16/01 7:59:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
KURT.ZOBEL@ca.com writes:
> The closeness might be a heat concern.
>  Didn't post to the list, just FYI, in case you want to discuss it.

That's a good thought, but I have a feeling the bolts might just be on an
angle. 
If the pipes expanded too much from heat, I think there would be a serious
problem with pipes cracking/bending and the engine moving and twisting. I
won't say it's not possible, but I think it's something simple like angled
bolts or Stillen making the pipe 0.002" short.

Paul Butkiewicz
Diablo Enterprises
Norwood, MA  02062-4012
Phone/Fax (781) 769-4180
http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/
http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:12:32 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Redlined Engine & Knocking/Ticking Sound?

> For my theory, you need to understand, I was about to go
> get some emmissions testing done to see what kind of
> numbers the Stillen DP could provide. I went to AutoZone
> and asked the manager if the EmmissionPass stuff was ok
> to put in my car.

What is "EmissionPass stuff"?  What does it do?  Did you fail emissions
before and tried some wacky stuff to try to pass?

> The O2 sensor gave a very bad reading to the ECU due
> to the shit that I put in the gas tank.

The O2 sensor can't physically give readings much beyond its 0V-1V range.

> Then the engine adjusted the idle speed to 7000 RPM
> thinking the engine was about to stall. 

Was it actually having trouble maintaining idle?  If not, then the ECU
shouldn't try to compensate for a condition that doesn't exist.  I agree
with Geoff that its more likely a stuck throttle linkage or something along
those lines.  If you have floormats in your car, did the floormat catch the
edge of the throttle pedal and hold it down?  Happens all the time in my
truck after WOT action.

> Everything ran ok, but I got a rattling/knocking sound.
> It sounded like the "lifter tick" but extremely loud
> and got much worse as the RPM's went up.

Rattling/knocking doesn't sound good...  Spark plugs look okay?  Hope you
didn't hurt anything.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:22:46 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Redlined Engine & Knocking/Ticking Sound?

In a message dated 10/16/01 8:14:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mjannusch@marketwatch.com writes:

>  What is "EmissionPass stuff"?  What does it do?  Did you fail emissions
>  before and tried some wacky stuff to try to pass?
It's something you put in your fuel to help your Nox and CO levels.  I have
none of the three cats on the car and was going to a shop to see what kind of
numbers the exhaust would get without any cats.

>  Was it actually having trouble maintaining idle? 
Nope, the idle was a little high, but not bad.  Then when it hit 7k it was
very smooth, not like the jumpy fuel cut sound. 

>  If you have floormats in your car, did the floormat catch the
>  edge of the throttle pedal and hold it down? 
Definitely not.  I thought about that though... Used to happen in my Jetta.
 
>  Rattling/knocking doesn't sound good...  Spark plugs look okay?  Hope you
>  didn't hurt anything.
I haven't check the plugs yet, I'll do that next.  I have the valve cover off
but haven't done much more from there yet. 

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:22:58 -0700
From: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Washer in my #3 cylinder?

The bore scope is a direct offshoot of medicine. It is used for surgery in
the knee or abdomen but has been adopted for use in machines. You may have
seen the offshoot used for police work on various tv shows. The scope can
also be used to manipulate what it sees. The image is shown on a seperate
screen while the mechanic used controls to manipulate what the scope sees
and does.

Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:55:52 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: Redlined Engine & Knocking/Ticking Sound?

Shit.... this sounds like my problem.... 
It's heavier than the lifter tick and much louder. 
Anyway to fix it before it gets worse?  Or is it as bad as it gets?  What
exactly does the main bearing do? 
I guess I'm rebuilding my engine this weekend. 
What's a new engine w/o turbos or anything that I can use from my car?  I
might just pick up a rear-ended parts car... 
Paul Butkiewicz
Diablo Enterprises
Norwood, MA  02062-4012
http://www.DiabloCarAudio.com/
http://www.DiabloEnterprises.com/
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Johnson
To: stealth@stls.verio.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Redlined Engine & Knocking/Ticking Sound?

does it sound like a really "heavy" knock...something metallic and heavy? 
mine did that before...pretty loud...not like lifter knock..."heavier" sound
than the lifters...it was my main bearing...cost me a new engine...my brother
was driving my car and over revved it going from fourth to first at 70
mph...first and LAST brother to drive my car...i was even in the f%@#ing car
when he did it...

keith
92tt

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #647
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