Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth    Sunday, October 7 2001    Volume 01 : Number 639




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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 18:34:09 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rattling gearbox

>> How bad that is I have no idea, but something is
>> probably out of the end play specs on one of the shafts.

> Any idea as to whether or not it will effect the lifespan
> of the tranny Matt? I can live with the rattle. I don't
> really want to call for a tow in the middle of some rural
> road somewhere.

Like I said, I don't know how bad it is to have a rattle in the tranny (or
even if it is bad at all or not), but generally if clearances are run on the
loose side then parts will wear faster and take more shock damage during
hard launches.

Will it strand you on the side of the road?  Probably not, but I doubt it'll
get better.  At some point you'll probably be looking at sending the tranny
to Kormex.  If it starts grinding gears or popping out of gear then I'd get
serious about getting it sent out for a rebuild.  If its just a little extra
noise and it doesn't seem to be doing anything else detrimental then get as
much life out of it as you can.

BTW, I'm just hazarding a guess at what is causing it - I'm not saying
"Yeah, it is definitely because someone put the wrong sized shims in the
tranny" or anything like that...  Just suggesting one candidate in the list
of possible causes.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 20:04:25 -0400
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Cut Thoughts

Sam Shelat wrote:

> >important, because a person may think that since he/she can run 18psi on
> >stock turbos, they can do the same with larger turbos, which may or may not
> >be true, depending on their setup.
> >
> Why not?  Isn't 18psi measured at the plenum?  If the turbo can do this
> continuously, and the engine can handle it, would any turbo set at 18psi
> going to do the same regardless of size as long as their output temps are
> the same?

You nearly answered your own question.  1st, stock turbos can only hold 18 or
near 18 psi during the low to mid rpm range and fall off.  The turbo is well
outside of its efficiency island at these boost temps so discharge temps are
very high.  Now compare this to a 15G or bigger and you'll hold 18psi all the
way to redline with cooler boost.  The fuel requirements are obviously greater
in the second scenario.  You'll need to push the stock injectors beyond 100% IDC
in an attempt to stay rich leading to fuel cut.  Heck my web page shows stock
turbos running into fuel cut attempting 18psi on a cool fall night.
http://people.mw.mediaone.net/twinturbo/Fuel_Cut.htm

Joe G.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:40:22 -0700
From: Richard <radanc@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: More Power

A nice cam regrind will improve top end by about 10% or so without  low
end sacrifice.

Sam Shelat wrote:
>
> Our cars really do not have the same top end power as a vette or F-body up
> top.  We need more boost and we need it to last the whole powerband.  I
> would venture a guess that if one simply gets a filter, electronic boost
> controller, gut the cats, and add a set of 13gs at 15psi, you will have no
> problem with vettes at all.  I believe the car has enough fuel stock to run
> 13gs at 15psi.
>
> Sam
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Jeys <tj@jeys.net>
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Date: Saturday, October 06, 2001 8:02 PM
> Subject: Team3S: RE: More Power
>
> >>Where you live?
> >>
> >>--Flash!
> >>Pittsburgh, PA
> >
> >Western Colorado
> >
> >>A rolling start is different.  Did he get the jump on you or did you
> >>start it first?  What speed was this at?  I find that when I want to get
> >>a good launch at highway speed (60 mph) I will drop down to 2nd gear and
> >>get full power band launch then shift into 3rd I think around 80 mph for
> >>the 6-speed.  This gives a better launch than in 3rd gear unless you are
> >>already at 65 or 70 mph.  Hey, every little bit helps.
> >
> >We went pretty close to the same time from 80mph.  I was in third, had just
> >down shifted from 5th.  He had pulled a car length on me before I had even
> >got into 4th.
> >
> >>If you only want to run 13 psi, then just remove the restrictor ring from
> >>the stock boost control solenoid.  That should put you close to 13 without
> >>spending a bunch of money on a boost controller.  Since you already have
> an
> >>aftermarket boost gauge - try that and report back on how much the boost
> >>increased.
> >
> >Thanks I'll give it a try and let ya know...
> >
> >>> Is it safe to say that I am making 330hp with 9lbs boost?
> >
> >>Yes.
> >
> >Thanks Darc, this was my main source of curiosity.
> >
> >T.J.
> >1992 3000GT VR-4
> >tj@jeys.net

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:47:07 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: More Power

> A nice cam regrind will improve top end by about 10% or so
> without low end sacrifice.

Got any specs you can share?

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 14:15:55 +0200
From: "Jim Matthews" <jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: More Power

> Roger and Jim, back in the stone age, ran AWD dyno tests to check horsepower
> on these cars and reported back. Adding modifications like an Apexi BC  and
> the K&N  FIPK , and running  at 15psi, without any other mods, gave a few
> ponies under 410 to Jim's 94 Stealth. No other mods had been done.

The 406 SAE HP figure was regrettably inflated due to an erroneous DIN -> SAE conversion factor.
The correct figure is 367 SAE HP (see my web page for details), which is more in line with how the
car feels on the road and accelerates relative to other vehicles.

Nearly half of the 86k miles now on my engine were racked up with the same setup (signature below).
Performance has been consistent (except for the boost controller not working at high altitudes) and
reliability has been perfect.  While I would love to increase power and reduce EGTs on the Autobahn
through turbo and fuel upgrades, I remain too concerned about incessant tuning and compromised
reliability to make the leap.  I would be surprised if others weren't in the same boat.

While it is interesting to measure engine behavior and adjust fuel response accordingly, this is
something I'd rather do ONCE, especially for a car that is daily transportation (and that my wife
sometimes drives - she has NO interest in engine tuning!).  I don't want to use one setting for
starting the car, another setting for when it warms up, different settings for different
temperatures, altitudes, etc.  I can see how such interaction might be necessary for cars tuned to
the absolute limit, but that is not my objective.  Loss of convenience is certainly a factor when
calculating the threshold of diminishing return.

For years we have seen discussions on Team3S of VPC, AFC, ARC, MASC, Haltech, etc., but I remain
unconvinced that any of these solutions meet my requirements.  Matt Jannusch's recent post on fuel
delivery in the "HKS VPC or Split Second ARC2" thread makes the issue sound straightforward, so I'm
not sure what the problem is.  If this is so hard, I can't imagine what went into development of the
stock management system.  Hell, maybe we should just come up with a package component upgrade with
an attractive/marketable price-performance ratio and hire the original Mitsu engineers to come up
with an appropriately enhanced ECU!?

As for reliability, an engine rebuild is something I would rather do when things are worn out, not
prematurely broken.  That I can't monitor knock on my hybrid ODB ECU certainly doesn't boost
confidence.  I am very grateful to those on the list who have sacrificed engines to increase our
knowledge base, but how many highly modified cars (turbos, fuel and enough boost to make it
worthwhile) have seen tens of thousands of miles with few reliability problems?

- - --
Jim Matthews - Munich, Germany
mailto:jim@the-matthews.com (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://www.the-matthews.com

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
      http://www.the-matthews.com/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R v.1 (1.0 bar @ 64% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Super Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Optima Red Top 830 Battery
Redline synth fluids (trans= MT-90, xfer & diff= SPHvy)
Cryoed rotors, R4S pads, braided lines, red calipers
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 171 mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 367 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 09:26:12 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: More Power

> Grin.  To each their own.  My tires cost $150 each ($600 total) and FIPK
> was $120 ($720 total) and a 2-day driving school was $240 ($960 total).
>
> All that for under $1,000.  Damn do I feel good sometimes.
>

Add to that the cost of another set of trims to put the tires on, and the
cost of mounting the tires on said rims.

Oskar

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:38:47 -0500
From: "bdtrent" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: C5: More Power

C5's are great cars.  Win the lottery or put your ego to rest, you will need
many mods including upgraded turbos before a first gen TT will run with a
C5.  For bang for the buck, nothing comes close.  These grudge matches
regarding other cars with little or no consideration for the driver whether
straight line or on the track, are foolish at best.  I've had enough open
track experience to know that just because you passed a Viper with a green
driver by no mean even remotely indicates that you just bested a Viper.
Sorry if I'm ranting, I like and respect all performance cars.

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:54:17 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: More Power

> For years we have seen discussions on Team3S of VPC, AFC, ARC,
> MASC, Haltech, etc., but I remain unconvinced that any of these
> solutions meet my requirements.  Matt Jannusch's recent post on
> fuel delivery in the "HKS VPC or Split Second ARC2" thread makes
> the issue sound straightforward, so I'm not sure what the
> problem is.  If this is so hard, I can't imagine what went into
> development of the stock management system.

I probably did make it sound overly simplistic - which it should be at lower
modification levels.  I don't think the ECU is particularly happy with an
airflow input signal much lower than is actually occuring.  The airflow rate
probably interacts with other ECU outputs (like timing advance) which might
not be the optimal setup.

Because of this, I'm going to be trying a new fuel/timing controller that
will also solve (for everything minus "knock sum") the '94-95 datalogging
problem.

> Hell, maybe we should just come up with a package component
> upgrade with an attractive/marketable price-performance ratio and
> hire the original Mitsu engineers to come up with an appropriately
> enhanced ECU!?

Yeah, because Mitsubishi has been oh-so-helpful in helping us with the
limitations of these cars.  >joke<

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 08:39:33 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: C5: More Power

- ----- Original Message -----
From: bdtrent <bdtrent@netzero.net>

> C5's are great cars.  Win the lottery or put your ego to rest, you will need
> many mods including upgraded turbos before a first gen TT will run with a
> C5.  For bang for the buck, nothing comes close

My last outing at Willow Springs I pulled over on the front straight to allow
a Z06 with an experianced driver past so I could tail him ---- he picked up
about 1 second on me in one 2½ mile lap. Comparing times later his fastest
lap was about a second better than mine --- 1:39+ to my 1:40+.

I have suspension and brake mods with a filter and stock turbos with the
boost controller set at  15 PSI --- most of the the Vipers are running about
the same times as I am. The C5 while a nice car, is not as fast as mine ---
I'm sure if Michael Schumacher drove the C5 he'd  hand me my head.

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 10:57:57 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: C5: More Power

 I've had enough open
>track experience to know that just because you passed a Viper with a green
>driver by no mean even remotely indicates that you just bested a Viper.
>Sorry if I'm ranting, I like and respect all performance cars.
>
I agree with Dave. Most Vipers, when driven properly, are out of our class.
I passed only one Viper in my entire life, and that was in the rain (where
I lapped everybody, some twice)

Rich>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 11:07:06 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: C5s and ZOGs

>My last outing at Willow Springs I pulled over on the front straight to allow
>a Z06 with an experianced driver past so I could tail him ---- he picked up
>about 1 second on me in one 2½ mile lap. <snip> The C5 while a nice car,
is not as fast as mine ---
>
I agree with Jim, too. C5s are no problem, but ZOGs are something
altogether different.
C5s can pull away from me on straightaways (I'm still stock engine), but I
catch them under braking and in the twisty bits. Eventually, when they see
me constantly on their bumper, they let me by.

I have a ROWG friend, who has a 650 hp Camaro road course car and a new
Z06. He's put $100,000 in the Camaro (supercharged Lingelfelter engine,
NOx, 6-pot brakes, full cage, race tires, etc.) It turned 10s in the 1/4
before he converted it to a road course car. The Z06 is still faster.

Rich/old poop

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 12:39:49 -0700
From: Andrew Woll <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Car stil won't start, please help.

Are you sure your gas is good? If so, the spark must explode at the right
time so timing could be it.

ARE YOU SURE THE PLUG WIRES GO TO THE RIGHT TERMINALS ON THE DISTRIBUTOR?
WERE THEY OFF FOR ANY REASON?  If so, this will cause a no start every time.

Is there a rotor in the distributor. If you changed parts it is possible to
forget to put it back in? Just some thoughts.

Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:27:02 +0000
From: "Magnus3315 ." <black_synn666@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Death of a Car

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>My 16 birthday saturday, my friends and I took my 1991 3000gt V-R4, to the movies. There was 4 of us. We left the movies. That car, had undercar lights, interior lights, new paint, new exhaust, dials redone, and $1600 system. The sprinklers were on at the movie theaters, I was in 1rst gear around 2400 rpm pulling left and hit some mud. The car skid, took out 2 lamp posts, then the airbag went off filling the car full of dust. I barely got out, opent he hatchback, my friends climbed out the back. My arms are screwed up from the air bag, and whole front is gone. Thy lie the death of my car. Any idea what I should do now? it's 91? Is it worth getting repaired? Whats the blue book price? Anyone need a piece or so off my car? I loved my car, and now it's gone, in a split second, due to mud.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Amar.</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_itl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></html>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:09:17 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: More Power

Actually, Oskar, I lucked out.  Good ol' Rich Merritt let me buy my
extra rims off him for $500 (including the four tires that were somewhat
useable for AutoX).  But I was showing how initially my car cost nothing
but a filter and was still doing good at tracks.  Then to be safe I
added tires, harness, rollbar, seat, and brakes.  I go may 3-8 seconds
now with them but internally I am still the weakest link and not the
car.  It still has plenty of juice.

I noticed this when the P-Zero tires that are getting worn down (35k
good miles) and the tread on the outside shoulders are nearly showing no
tread depth anymore (good amount in the middle but not on the outside
shoulder).  Anyway, a favorite posted 10 mph hairpin climbing turn of
mine got the rear tires to break loose, spin since I was in second gear
at a good rev, and I slide the back out like Smokey and the Bandit
clips.  I was none too happy.  That told me I still am not a good enough
driver that when things change I am not adjusting to them.  Shucks.
Just more excuses to get out there and drive it more.  =)

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg

- -----Original Message-----
From: Oskar
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:26 AM
 
> Grin.  To each their own.  My tires cost $150 each ($600 total) and
FIPK
> was $120 ($720 total) and a 2-day driving school was $240 ($960
total).
>
> All that for under $1,000.  Damn do I feel good sometimes.
>

Add to that the cost of another set of trims to put the tires on, and
the
cost of mounting the tires on said rims.

Oskar

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:21:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Death of a Car

2400rpm in 1st gear did _this_ kinda damage?

I dunno..I mean, it sucks, but no way you hopped curbs, took out two
parking lot lights, popped the bag, and totalled the front of the car.

So's we can all learn what kinda drive NOT to be, what were you really
doing?

On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, Magnus3315 . wrote:

> My 16 birthday saturday, my friends and I took my 1991 3000gt V-R4, to
> the movies. There was 4 of us. We left the movies. That car, had undercar
> lights, interior lights, new paint, new exhaust, dials redone, and $1600
> system. The sprinklers were on at the movie theaters, I was in 1rst gear
> around 2400 rpm pulling left and hit some mud. The car skid, took out 2
> lamp posts, then the airbag went off filling the car full of dust. I
> barely got out, opent he hatchback, my friends climbed out the back. My
> arms are screwed up from the air bag, and whole front is gone. Thy lie
> the death of my car. Any idea what I should do now? it's 91? Is it worth
> getting repaired? Whats the blue book price? Anyone need a piece or so
> off my car? I loved my car, and now it's gone, in a split second, due to
> mud.

> Amar.

Geoff Mohler

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #639
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