Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Friday, September 21 2001 Volume 01 : Number 621

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:21:58 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Sears Point NASA event --- Oct 27/28

Damon

No --- no sign up list or anything, so far we've got 7 folks trying to go.
Geoff and Anissa, Bob Forrest and ET [ I didn't see Bob include her ]
Kurt Zobel, Jim Berry and Damon Rachell.

Signup is done on an individual basis but us locals may want to drive
up together. In my case I'll go up on Friday and leave for home on
Monday --- I's too far for me to do in 3days --- getting home at 1AM
is too big a pain, figure an 8 + hour drive from Orange County.

Jim Berry
=============================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Damon Rachell <damonr@MEFAS.com>
To: 'Jim Berry' <fastmax@home.com>

> Hi Jim,
> You can count me in on the Sears point HPDE. I finally got a boost
> controller in the car and things haven't ever been better. Man, i've never
> felt torque like that before. Those GT347s are just amazing. I run nearly
> 0.95 bar to 6500 RPM! So with a new water pump, new brakes, new boost
> controller, new new new, just about everything, you can count me in. If I
> don't run, then I've died in a tragic row boat accident or something lame
> like that.
>
> Are you talking about the Oct 27-28 event, right? Let me know who's signing
> up and you can count me in.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:04:27 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rotor wear (was: 1991 3000 GT VR-4)

Thanks, Andie. However, I had warped (or what I thought were warped) rotors
from my Big Reds and street Porsche pads. I had a shop turn them and they
were both warped in two different places on the front and back of the rotor
(they were not warped in the same place on both sides). I race with Pagid
Orange pads but the street Porsche pads when not on the track. I had
warping with both pads. I would have assumed that the other pad would scrub
off or add on their pad material. This is why I felt it was a warped rotor
and not just pad material. Any theory to this?

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andie W. Lin
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 3:29 PM

You live with it or toss it out, right. You cannot undo this "hot ghost
warpage" as it is in "memory", if you will. However, most of this kind of
perceived warpage is actually film transfer, and not warpage at all...in
most cases I have seen, at least.

Yes, you can develop hot/hard spots on your rotors, especially when using
brake friction compounds with a very high carbon content (which is the main
reason we went to ceramics to replace the carbon typically found in a
high-performance compound; carbon is just a filler material, and does not
provide the braking torque/ability of the compound - prior to carbon, the
filler was abestos). If you get enough film transfer from a high-carbon
content pad onto the rotor, and then stand on the brakes enough times, you
can develop these hot/hard spots on your rotors. This is typically where
your cracks will typically show up at.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:17:12 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rotor wear (was: 1991 3000 GT VR-4)

Darren,

If you had your shop turn the rotors and it solved your problem, then they
were, in fact, warped. As for friction material film transfer, it all
depends on how much friction compound material is smeared on the
rotor...some are not compatible with each other, and produce a very notable
shudder when "mixed". I am not sure I completely understand you question
with regards to a "theory".

The way I am reading your post, you are stating that your shop turned the
rotors which were suspect of being warped, and I am assuming from here that
this resurfacing of your rotors fixed your problem.

In either case, I recommend turning rotors whenever you change brake pads,
especially if there are any grooves on the rotor. Failure to do so will
dramatically reduce braking efficiency, and also brake pad life (wear rate).

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
::Of Darren Schilberg
::Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 4:04 PM
::To: Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
::Subject: Team3S: Rotor wear (was: 1991 3000 GT VR-4)
::and not just pad material. Any theory to this?

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:16:00 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

>Always willing to answer what I can (and know about), and defer to someone
>else when I don't know.
>
OK, try this one. I asked this of the group right after our excursion to
Heartland Park, but I really didn't get a definitive answer. Folks
suggested checking the pad pressure at the caliper, checking master
cylinder, etc., but nobody really knew.

SITUATION
Flash (95 VR4) and I (94 VR4) both have Big Reds (Porsche calipers). He has
Pagids and I have Hawk Blues. We both run Motul brake fluid. We were both
running stock pads in the rear. I have air cooling ducts and water
injection, and Flash has none of that. My car is lowered in the front with
Ground Control suspension, Eibach 550 springs, and 3 deg negative camber,
while Flash is stock. Flash has Yoko 032R tires, I have Kuhmo race tires.
My Big Reds have been on the car for two seasons, and have burned off the
rubber dust seals; Flash's Big Reds are one season old, and he's just
starting to burn out his seals (the ones that protect the pistons).

Flash's car stops like it just hit a brick wall. When you ride with him,
you better grab the O-Shit handle, or he'll put you through the windshield,
even with belts on. I have never ridden in a car that stops so quick, not
even race-prepped instructor cars.

My car stops OK, but not like that. I've run Pagid pads before, but they
never stopped like Flash, so I don't think it's the pads. In fact, I don't
think it's an issue of who-has-the-best-equipment. Gotta be something else.

When I was on the track with Chuck and Mike Willis, I could outbrake both
of them (Chuck has stock rotors with Panther pads, Mike has F40 calipers
and Idunno what pads. Outbraking them was the only way I could keep up with
those two.). An instructor who runs a 944 said I had better brakes than he
does, and I can outbrake most 911s and Vettes, so there isn't anything
WRONG with my brakes. But they just don't stop like Flash does.

QUESTION
What can I do to my brake system to make it stop better? I'm not interested
in upgrading to six-pot calipers and $3200 rotors, just making my current
system work better. What about the idea of checking pad pressure? Should I
start replacing components, like master cylinders, etc.? Do the Big Red
calipers need rebuilding? If it's just a matter of proper maintenance and
setup, what are those procedures? Maybe what I need (and the rest of us, I
guess) is a good solid list of things to do to make sure the overall brake
system is working perfectly. Such procedures may be a little beyond the ken
of yer typical brake shop, so where can you go to get this kind of work
done? What tools do we need? (Such as, how do you measure pad pressure?).
All advice is welcome. Others who know about this stuff are welcome to
chime in.

Rich/94 VR4
Porterfield cryo rotors, Porsche Big Red calipers, SS lines, Motul fluid,
Hawk Blue pads, water injection cooling, air ducts, backing plates
removed, spoked wheels with lots of cooling air flow.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Sears Point NASA event --- Oct 27/28

If we are resorting to mass Emails, please lets take the mailing lists off
the CC line.

In fact, I would encourage people to discuss this on
3sracers or team3s instead of an open CC list like this.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Jim Berry wrote:

> Damon
>
> No --- no sign up list or anything, so far we've got 7 folks trying to go.
> Geoff and Anissa, Bob Forrest and ET [ I didn't see Bob include her ]
> Kurt Zobel, Jim Berry and Damon Rachell.
>
> Signup is done on an individual basis but us locals may want to drive
> up together. In my case I'll go up on Friday and leave for home on
> Monday --- I's too far for me to do in 3days --- getting home at 1AM
> is too big a pain, figure an 8 + hour drive from Orange County.
>
> Jim Berry
> =============================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Damon Rachell <damonr@MEFAS.com>
> To: 'Jim Berry' <fastmax@home.com>
>
> > Hi Jim,
> > You can count me in on the Sears point HPDE. I finally got a boost
> > controller in the car and things haven't ever been better. Man, i've never
> > felt torque like that before. Those GT347s are just amazing. I run nearly
> > 0.95 bar to 6500 RPM! So with a new water pump, new brakes, new boost
> > controller, new new new, just about everything, you can count me in. If I
> > don't run, then I've died in a tragic row boat accident or something lame
> > like that.
> >
> > Are you talking about the Oct 27-28 event, right? Let me know who's signing
> > up and you can count me in.

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:42:20 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo upgrade **NEW INFORMATION**

CAUTION: THIS IS NOT THE STILLEN BREMBO 4 PISTON UPGRADE!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff VanOrsdal [SMTP:jeffv@1nce.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 12:48 PM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo upgrade **NEW INFORMATION**
>
> I received a reply from Rober Ramsey at Brembo. He was kind enough to
> send
> me the PDF spec sheet for our brake package as well as a PDF detailing
> what
> wheel measurements must be made to ensure a proper fit. I can forward the
> PDFs to someone who has webspace to host them for all to view. Here's the
> highlights:
>
> P/N 1B1.8013A
> Two piece aluminium caliper with 40 and 44mm pistons
> 355mm x 32mm cross drilled motorsport discs
> Floating style billet aluminium "bell"
> Goodridge SS lines
> Cost: $3295.00 *eek!*
>
> For more information, contact Robert Ramsey at 800/325-3994 xt 204
>
> I can't offer any educated opinion of this setup. I'm just the messenger
> :)
> But this may be a nice upgrade for the serious track nuts among us. Or,
> maybe not. I'll leave that for you folks to decide. As I said, if anyone
> wants the PDFs email me privately and I'll forward them. The brake
> measurement PDF diagram could have some other uses as well. Perhaps
> someone
> could compile a list of measurements for the various Porsche retrofit kits
> out there?
>
> Jeff VanOrsdal
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
> jeffv@1nce.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:41:38 -0400
From: MIHAI RAICU <aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: FIPK Clone and Precat sound.

Hello,

Sorry about the late reply to this, but I have been away from
the computer for a while and I am slowly catching up with all
the posts.

I also have a similar problem. My relevant mods are: Boost
Controller, K&N, Greddy Type-S BOV, Stillen DownPipe with no
front pre-cat and no main cat. When running boost above 10
psi, I get lots of crackle and popping noises at high RPM
(above 5000 RPM). My EGTs are normal, tune up done @ 63K
miles, I now have 80K miles. My only explanation is that I
lived out in CA for the summer and used 91~92 octane gas,
whatever I could find. I was thinking that I might have
damaged something because of the low octane. I also get
slight hesitation along with the weird sounds. My BOV is
probably not set properly, and the weird sounds only started
lately, roughly 5000 miles after the install of the
downpipe. The next step is to check the spark plugs for any
obvious damage from detonation or something. If anybody has
any sugestions, I would be glad to hear them.

John Raicu
94 Yellow TT.

>>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:32:39 -0700
>>From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: FIPK Clone and Precat sound.
>>
>>There was no change in exhaust noise when I gutted the
>>precats --- I did however get a lot of crackle and popping
>>when I put in the test pipe I use for racing.
>>
>>        Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:46:25 -0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo Upgrade **contact info and spec sheets**

I'm posting this from scratch for the benefit of the archives and digest
users.

I've received a response from Robert Ramsey at Brembo regarding the new 3S
specific Brembo upgrade kit for our cars. This is not the adapted Porsche
996, Porsche 928 or Stillen upgrade package. Highlights are as follows:

P/N 1B1.8013A
Two piece aluminum caliper with 40 and 44mm pistons
355mm x 32mm cross drilled motorsport discs
Floating style billet aluminum "bell"
Goodridge SS lines
Cost: $3295.00

For more information, contact Robert Ramsey at 800/325-3994 xt 204

Bob Forrest was kind enough to upload the PDF specification and measurements
sheets on the Team 3S site.

www.Team3S.com/Images/SpecSheet1B18013.pdf
www.Team3S.com/Images/WheelClearance.pdf

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:56:25 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: FIPK Clone and Precat sound.

[with gutted/missing cats]
> When running boost above 10 psi, I get lots of crackle
> and popping noises at high RPM (above 5000 RPM).

I'm wondering if this is a result of running rich and having some of the
unburned fuel combust in the post-turbo portion of the exhaust. With
pre/main cats present, perhaps this unburned fuel gets taken care of by the
cats and thus doesn't make noises. Any thoughts?

BTW, I think I'm going to play with a test pipe this weekend and see what
results I get (pre-cat exhaust/turbos are otherwise stock). We'll see...

- --Erik
'95 VR-4

P.S. as for the 17mm (cat) and 19mm bolts/nuts surrounding the various
exhaust fittings, I soaked mine in liquid wrench overnight and then they
took no more than 50-80 ft-lbs to break loose. 1/2" breaker bar and a pair
of 6-point sockets. Gotta love that. With the addition of anti-seize, I
can swap out exhaust parts in minutes =P Probably should get some new
gaskets, though...

P.P.S Check this out!
18V *Cordless* Impact Wrench that puts out 240ft-lbs!!!!
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45638

Full Specs:
http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/html/index.html

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:06:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Dynapack chassis dynamometer

At last a new topic - at least PicoSearch returned "No documents
found relating to your query." for "dynapack" and "dynopack" in the
Team3S archives. :)

I just read about this portable 2WD and 4WD dyno in Sport Compact
Car. The Ultimate Garage has some nice right-ups on it.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/dynapack.html    and
http://www.ultimategarage.com/dynatech.html

Web site: http://www.dynapack.com/

The lowest price 4WD version goes for only $94K. Seems reasonable
enough. SCC loves this thing. It's portable! A box attaches to each
wheel hub (wheels removed of course).

Anybody here every used this dyno on a 3S car? Or any car for that
matter?

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:54:00 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

> Flash's car stops like it just hit a brick wall. When you ride with him,
> you better grab the O-Shit handle, or he'll put you through the windshield,
> even with belts on. I have never ridden in a car that stops so quick, not
> even race-prepped instructor cars.
>
> My car stops OK, but not like that. I've run Pagid pads before, but they
> never stopped like Flash, so I don't think it's the pads. In fact, I don't
> think it's an issue of who-has-the-best-equipment. Gotta be something else.

Rich

Are you sure he stops faster than you --- when riding along the impressions
you get are different than the one you get while driving. You said you could
outbrake a bunch of guys and cars but you didn't compare yourself to Flash.
I assume you hammer the brakes --- I'd have to drop my use of Madman
Merritt if you were less than decisive in your brake application.

A G-Tech gives stopping distance from 60 mph --- errors from dive will
muddy the waters but at least it's an indication. You could also try timing a
stop or two --- from 60 mph at 1G of deceleration you should stop in 2¾
seconds or measure stopping distance [6.5 sec from 140 mph], 125 feet
using the 60 mph numbers. Those methods are a little difficult but not
impossible.

        Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:10:52 -0400
From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@schappell.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dynapack chassis dynamometer

Never used one, but TurboXS is supposed to be getting an AWD version soon.
They might already have it. http://www.turboxs.com They are in MD for you
guys on the East Coast. The DynaPack is very repeatable, but not sure how
accurate. It's perfect for getting comparisons between upgrades due to it's
sensitivity and repeatability.

Kevin Schappell
http://kevin.schappell.com
Save money on all of your speed parts.
http://www.SpeedShoppers.com

> Anybody here every used this dyno on a 3S car? Or any car for that
> matter?
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:02:48 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dynapack chassis dynamometer

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Schappell <kevin@schappell.com>

> Never used one, but TurboXS is supposed to be getting an AWD version soon.
> They might already have it. http://www.turboxs.com They are in MD for you
> guys on the East Coast. The DynaPack is very repeatable, but not sure how
> accurate. It's perfect for getting comparisons between upgrades due to it's
> sensitivity and repeatability.

FWIW -- their web site says that they are not absolute torque and HP readings
but are comparison values --- [shrug]

        Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:29:17 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

You may be right. It sure seems like that car stops pretty good.
Rich

>Are you sure he stops faster than you --- when riding along the impressions
>you get are different than the one you get while driving.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:07:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo Upgrade **contact info and spec sheets**

Who's biting if I can beat that price? :^)

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Jeff VanOrsdal wrote:

> I'm posting this from scratch for the benefit of the archives and digest
> users.
>
> I've received a response from Robert Ramsey at Brembo regarding the new 3S
> specific Brembo upgrade kit for our cars. This is not the adapted Porsche
> 996, Porsche 928 or Stillen upgrade package. Highlights are as follows:
>
> P/N 1B1.8013A
> Two piece aluminum caliper with 40 and 44mm pistons
> 355mm x 32mm cross drilled motorsport discs
> Floating style billet aluminum "bell"
> Goodridge SS lines
> Cost: $3295.00
>
> For more information, contact Robert Ramsey at 800/325-3994 xt 204
>
> Bob Forrest was kind enough to upload the PDF specification and measurements
> sheets on the Team 3S site.
>
> www.Team3S.com/Images/SpecSheet1B18013.pdf
> www.Team3S.com/Images/WheelClearance.pdf
>
> Jeff VanOrsdal
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
> jeffv@1nce.com

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:51:03 -0600
From: Desert Fox <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat

With a stock setup, is there any reason NOT to gut the cats if you intend to
keep all else stock?

- --
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:56:14 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rotor wear

The shop turned the rotors because I asked them to. The next application of
the brakes (60 mph) they gave me that warping feeling.

I change from street to race pads and back at each event (four times this
year) but this was the first time I had them turned and they lasted all
season. They never had grooves -- just those spider cracks in the surface
of the rotor.

I'll wait til next year when I get new rotors and can cool them down
correctly. Until then we'll have to wait for the current new owners of the
Porterfield cryo-treated rotors give us their feedback. Thanks.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andie W. Lin [mailto:andiewlin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 4:17 PM

Darren,

If you had your shop turn the rotors and it solved your problem, then they
were, in fact, warped. As for friction material film transfer, it all
depends on how much friction compound material is smeared on the
rotor...some are not compatible with each other, and produce a very notable
shudder when "mixed". I am not sure I completely understand you question
with regards to a "theory".

The way I am reading your post, you are stating that your shop turned the
rotors which were suspect of being warped, and I am assuming from here that
this resurfacing of your rotors fixed your problem.

In either case, I recommend turning rotors whenever you change brake pads,
especially if there are any grooves on the rotor. Failure to do so will
dramatically reduce braking efficiency, and also brake pad life (wear rate).

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:04:56 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat

> With a stock setup, is there any reason NOT to gut the cats
> if you intend to keep all else stock?

My understanding is that the pre-cats (or warmup cats as the FSM calls them)
is that they are used to help startup emissions and to get the O2 sensors up
to operating temperatures more quickly. I'd think you could pass emissions
without them...

***    anyone done this (gutted precats and taken a warm car for emissions
testing)? Does the car pass emissions?

Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure, but if that's not an
issue, I don't see why not (although a test pipe is probably a better - less
work - option).

- --Erik

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:09:04 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

Rich, you flatter me. You just got to experience the brakes on Friday night
before the weekend's sessions. Dr. Willis rode with me on Sunday and about
the last run of the weekend when my brake fluid was dying, the Pagid pads I
borrowed from you were about worn thin, and I already had a lawn-mowing
excursion (four wheel off-track run) so I had to be a little more careful.
In the turns after the straightaway I was going slower but the turns with no
braking (at Kansas this was all the turns except turn 1, 8, 12, and 16).

I also think it only felt faster (butt dyno) because my car dives forward
and yours does not. We were, however, running nearly the same lap time (or
at least within half a second or so) so somehow we were getting around the
track at the same time.

As far as G-Tech I can not get mine to stop counting in seconds from
stopping 60-0 mph. It starts counting when it hits 60 mph but then keeps
counting until about 13 seconds and then just resets itself. I can't figure
it out. I've gotten it to do 1/4 mile, trap speed, HP, instant and constant
G's but can't get the 60-0 stopping distance. Otherwise I would be able to
get me numbers to compare against you and Rich and others.

- --Flash!
With supposedly *amazing* stopping power

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Jim Berry
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 4:54 PM
To: Andie W. Lin; Jeff Lucius; Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st; Merritt
Subject: Re: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

> Flash's car stops like it just hit a brick wall.

Rich

Are you sure he stops faster than you --- when riding along the impressions
you get are different than the one you get while driving. You said you could
outbrake a bunch of guys and cars but you didn't compare yourself to Flash.
I assume you hammer the brakes --- I'd have to drop my use of Madman
Merritt if you were less than decisive in your brake application.

A G-Tech gives stopping distance from 60 mph --- errors from dive will
muddy the waters but at least it's an indication. You could also try timing
a
stop or two --- from 60 mph at 1G of deceleration you should stop in 2¾
seconds or measure stopping distance [6.5 sec from 140 mph], 125 feet
using the 60 mph numbers. Those methods are a little difficult but not
impossible.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:14:55 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo Upgrade **contact info and spec sheets**

*chuckle* Cross-drilled rotors are in their spec sheet. No comment but we
all know what those are not good for.

- -----Original Message-----
From: oJeff VanOrsdal

www.Team3S.com/Images/SpecSheet1B18013.pdf

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:22:24 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dynapack chassis dynamometer

How much is a dyno run at Altered Atmosphere? For $100k you would have to
charge $100 for a thousand runs. Maybe they charge more. They tune the car
for you so they might throw their hourly fee in there and make money on it.

I didn't see any tie downs on the rear of the car. What is to make the
things hooked to the axles from moving around or jack stands? I didn't
really read it all seeing the price of it and not many of us have that cash
to throw around or a shop big enough to split up the cost.

What is the answer worth other to impress other people? I guess I have not
been sold on what it is worth for a stock car. For modded cars I understand
the tuning is more important. Is it therefore not very worthwhile (unless
it is cheap or free) to do this to a stock car?

- --Flash!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:27:58 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat

None of our emissions people are allowed to cheat around here. The machine
takes the car's VIN and emails it to the State so the next time you go to a
shop they will see that you did that before or the State will see that you
have tried 6 different times.

Anyway, what they do is force the car to sit until it is cold (usually
overnight or at least for an hour) and THEN they put it on the rack "sniff"
test. No chance getting around it here. Maybe you have to find the right
place and pay for your emissions test with a case or two of the local drink
(here in Pittsburgh we get off easy since a case of Iron City Beer is not
much more than $5). *laugh*

But to those in surrounding regions (PA other than Philly, Harrisburg, and
Pittsburgh), OH, WV, NY, etc. you don't have emissions so have at it.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:05 PM

My understanding is that the pre-cats (or warmup cats as the FSM calls them)
is that they are used to help startup emissions and to get the O2 sensors up
to operating temperatures more quickly. I'd think you could pass emissions
without them...

***    anyone done this (gutted precats and taken a warm car for emissions
testing)? Does the car pass emissions?

Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure, but if that's not an
issue, I don't see why not (although a test pipe is probably a better - less
work - option).

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:31:40 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

> Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure,

Guarantees? I was told by a Mitsu mechanic that our cars have really good
emissions and they have a good chance in passing without the main cat as long
as the enigne is hot and runs well. Can anyone confirm this either to be
true or false? Anyone have a test pipe that passed emissions? Preferably
strict CA or MA tests?
Thanks,

- -Paul - 3Si1127
Race Seats, Performance, Audio, and Mitsuparts retailer
1992 Green RT/TT
    K&N FIPK & Re-gapped plugs(0.034")
    Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads, & SS lines
    Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9 Bar
    Custom 3" Exhaust
www.DiabloCarAudio.com, www.DiabloEnterprises.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:23:11 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Darren Schilberg <dschilberg@pobox.com>

> > As far as G-Tech I can not get mine to stop counting in seconds from
> stopping 60-0 mph. It starts counting when it hits 60 mph but then keeps
> counting until about 13 seconds and then just resets itself. I can't figure
> it out. I've gotten it to do 1/4 mile, trap speed, HP, instant and constant
> G's but can't get the 60-0 stopping distance. Otherwise I would be able to
> get me numbers to compare against you and Rich and others.

You have to use the ¼ mile setup --- anytime you get over 60 you can hit the
brakes and it should give you your 60-0. I don't have my book handy you may
have to drive ¼ mile first though.

    Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:47:15 -0700
From: Rick <melvin@gamewood.net>
Subject: Team3S: Some problems after clutch/trany install?????????

As bad as I hated it, I had to have someone else do the install,I just
didn't have time or the place.Everything seems ok with the drive line
now,but my oil press.+ factory boost gauge don't work anymore,and I now
can't boost above 7 / 8lbs.,and I do have a manual boost set up and
gauge that was running 15lbs. before this work.Anyone got any idea what
the problem might be,or what to look for?
Thanks,
RICK

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:43:24 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

I would almost bet that with correct tuning, or a ~perfectly~ performing
engine, this may be the case. Of course, many factors contribute to
this...

Also - can anyone clarify if the emissions has to do with how rich/lean
a car runs? If it runs too lean, causing detonation/knock, would this
make an emissions score worse, or better? I know if it is running rich,
you will fail, almost indefinitely because there is that excess
contaminants are emitted... Could a person with say a fuel controller
really lean up their car right before the emissions procedure and pass
without cats? Like Paul said - has anyone tried???

- -Cody

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 6:32 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat &
cat

> Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure,

Guarantees? I was told by a Mitsu mechanic that our cars have really
good
emissions and they have a good chance in passing without the main cat as
long
as the enigne is hot and runs well. Can anyone confirm this either to
be
true or false? Anyone have a test pipe that passed emissions?
Preferably
strict CA or MA tests?
Thanks,

- -Paul - 3Si1127
Race Seats, Performance, Audio, and Mitsuparts retailer
1992 Green RT/TT
    K&N FIPK & Re-gapped plugs(0.034")
    Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads, & SS lines
    Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9 Bar
    Custom 3" Exhaust
www.DiabloCarAudio.com, www.DiabloEnterprises.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

Running lean AND rich both can cause a failed emissions test.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, cody wrote:

> I would almost bet that with correct tuning, or a ~perfectly~ performing
> engine, this may be the case. Of course, many factors contribute to
> this...
>
> Also - can anyone clarify if the emissions has to do with how rich/lean
> a car runs? If it runs too lean, causing detonation/knock, would this
> make an emissions score worse, or better? I know if it is running rich,
> you will fail, almost indefinitely because there is that excess
> contaminants are emitted... Could a person with say a fuel controller
> really lean up their car right before the emissions procedure and pass
> without cats? Like Paul said - has anyone tried???
>
> -Cody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 6:32 PM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat &
> cat
>
> > Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure,
>
> Guarantees? I was told by a Mitsu mechanic that our cars have really
> good
> emissions and they have a good chance in passing without the main cat as
> long
> as the enigne is hot and runs well. Can anyone confirm this either to
> be
> true or false? Anyone have a test pipe that passed emissions?
> Preferably
> strict CA or MA tests?
> Thanks,
>
> -Paul - 3Si1127
> Race Seats, Performance, Audio, and Mitsuparts retailer
> 1992 Green RT/TT
>     K&N FIPK & Re-gapped plugs(0.034")
>     Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads, & SS lines
>     Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9 Bar
>     Custom 3" Exhaust
> www.DiabloCarAudio.com, www.DiabloEnterprises.com

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:19:05 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

> If it runs too lean, causing detonation/knock, would this
> make an emissions score worse, or better?
I would say it would make it much better. The engine would run hotter
therefore burning off more of the fuel and "exhaust". The only risk you take
is burning up your engine. If 14:1 is the perfect a/f ratio, and cars
usually come from the factory higher than 14:1, I'd say bringing it to 14:1
would be good enough to pass emissions without a cat. If you took the risk
of going below 14:1, you should be getting much better emissions since there
is less fuel, and therefore less contaminants.
Does anyone know what A/F ratio would risk our engines? It depends highly on
fuel octane, correct? Maybe there is a ratio of certain octane fuel and air
(maybe even modified somehow with nitrous or something?) that will help us
pass emissions?

> Could a person with say a fuel controller really lean up their car right
> before the emissions procedure and pass without cats?
I'm going to give it a shot once I get my Stillen DP and A/F computer. I
have a friend who has the equipment to test it with me. I'll let you guys
know when I'm going to do the tests. If anyone has any suggestions or other
things they'd like me to check while I'm at it, let me know.

- -Paul - 3Si1127
Race Seats, Performance, Audio, and Mitsuparts retailer
1992 Green RT/TT
    K&N FIPK & Re-gapped plugs(0.034")
    Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads, & SS lines
    Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9 Bar
    Custom 3" Exhaust
www.DiabloCarAudio.com, www.DiabloEnterprises.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:20:45 EDT
From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

> Running lean AND rich both can cause a failed emissions test.

Could you explain why running lean would cause emissions failure? I just
went on and on about why I think it would make us pass. I think my arguments
made sense, but I'm sure you'd know better than I would.
Please elaborate,

- -Paul - 3Si1127
Race Seats, Performance, Audio, and Mitsuparts retailer
1992 Green RT/TT
    K&N FIPK & Re-gapped plugs(0.034")
    Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads, & SS lines
    Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9 Bar
    Custom 3" Exhaust
www.DiabloCarAudio.com, www.DiabloEnterprises.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:23:04 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Some problems after clutch/trany install?????????

Take it back and tell them they screwed up...

You probably have the oil pressure sender line screwed up, some wrongly
connected vacuum/boost hoses, and if that much is wrong, there's
possibly more...

- -Cody

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Rick
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 9:47 PM
To: stealth@starnet.net; stealth@stls.verio.net; Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Some problems after clutch/trany install?????????

As bad as I hated it, I had to have someone else do the install,I just
didn't have time or the place.Everything seems ok with the drive line
now,but my oil press.+ factory boost gauge don't work anymore,and I now
can't boost above 7 / 8lbs.,and I do have a manual boost set up and
gauge that was running 15lbs. before this work.Anyone got any idea what
the problem might be,or what to look for?
Thanks,
RICK

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:53:13 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

I've passed emissions with cars that have gutted cats. twice. A test pipe
is a different story, because most places visually check to see if there is
a cat. A test pipe looks nothing like a cat. With a gutted cat, they don't
know it's gutted, just that it is there. As far as the rich/lean debate
goes, there are 2 tests in most places...hydrocarbons (hc), and carbon
monoxide (co). I'm not sure which is which, but an over rich condition will
cause one of them to be high, and an excessively lean condition will cause
the other to be high. I think it's rich=CO, and lean=HC

Wayne

At 04:31 PM 9/21/01 , DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com wrote:
> > Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure,
>
>Guarantees? I was told by a Mitsu mechanic that our cars have really good
>emissions and they have a good chance in passing without the main cat as long
>as the enigne is hot and runs well. Can anyone confirm this either to be
>true or false? Anyone have a test pipe that passed emissions? Preferably
>strict CA or MA tests?
>Thanks,
>
>-Paul - 3Si1127

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:34:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

I cant elaborate a lot really, but running lean can cause (I think) NOX
levels to be really high.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001 DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com wrote:

> > Running lean AND rich both can cause a failed emissions test.
>
> Could you explain why running lean would cause emissions failure? I just
> went on and on about why I think it would make us pass. I think my arguments
> made sense, but I'm sure you'd know better than I would.
> Please elaborate,
>
> -Paul - 3Si1127
> Race Seats, Performance, Audio, and Mitsuparts retailer
> 1992 Green RT/TT
>     K&N FIPK & Re-gapped plugs(0.034")
>     Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads, & SS lines
>     Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9 Bar
>     Custom 3" Exhaust
> www.DiabloCarAudio.com, www.DiabloEnterprises.com

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:17:27 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe? WAS: Gutting pre-cat & cat

- ----- Original Message -----

> > Running lean AND rich both can cause a failed emissions test.
>
> Could you explain why running lean would cause emissions failure? I just
> went on and on about why I think it would make us pass. I think my arguments
> made sense, but I'm sure you'd know better than I would.
> Please elaborate,

The problem with emissions is that to get rid of hydrocarbons you need it to
run lean and hot which in turn causes the NOX to go up. If you look at the
A/F ratio vs.emissions you see that the two --- HC & NOX overlap --- the
cat apparently allows the engine to run lean and still reduces NOX [magic
I guess -- I'm not sure what reactions the catalyst precipitates but someone
thinks it's a good thing].

        Jim Berry

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:06:20 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat

With gutting the pre cats and replacing the main cat with a test pipe
would the O2 sensors fail prematurely? Or are there any other problems
associated with doing this?

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Gross, Erik
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 4:05 PM
To: Team 3S
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat

> With a stock setup, is there any reason NOT to gut the cats
> if you intend to keep all else stock?

My understanding is that the pre-cats (or warmup cats as the FSM calls
them) is that they are used to help startup emissions and to get the O2
sensors up to operating temperatures more quickly. I'd think you could
pass emissions without them...

***    anyone done this (gutted precats and taken a warm car for
emissions
testing)? Does the car pass emissions?

Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure, but if that's not
an issue, I don't see why not (although a test pipe is probably a better
- - less work - option).

- --Erik

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:25:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat

No..o2 sensors have nothing to do with cats.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, BlackLight wrote:

> With gutting the pre cats and replacing the main cat with a test pipe
> would the O2 sensors fail prematurely? Or are there any other problems
> associated with doing this?
>
> Matt Nelson
> 1994 RT TT
> Computer Sales Consultant
> Gateway Computers, Salem OR
> Work Phone 503-587-7113
> BlackLight@Planetice.Net
> www.BlackLight.5u.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
> Of Gross, Erik
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 4:05 PM
> To: Team 3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Gutting pre-cat & cat
>
> > With a stock setup, is there any reason NOT to gut the cats
> > if you intend to keep all else stock?
>
> My understanding is that the pre-cats (or warmup cats as the FSM calls
> them) is that they are used to help startup emissions and to get the O2
> sensors up to operating temperatures more quickly. I'd think you could
> pass emissions without them...
>
> ***    anyone done this (gutted precats and taken a warm car for
> emissions
> testing)? Does the car pass emissions?
>
> Gutting the main cat guarantees an emissions failure, but if that's not
> an issue, I don't see why not (although a test pipe is probably a better
> - less work - option).
>
>
> --Erik

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:13:13 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pass Emissions with a Test Pipe?

So who on the list is going to step up and say they work in a testing place
and will be looking for our cars? Anyone? Bueller? I seem to recall a
poster in John Christian's garage of a first gen Stealth at an emissions
test (artist rendering not a photo). I think he said he got that for
helping a friend setup an emission machine with his car (which had no cats,
exhaust, etc. so it failed every test but boy did it sound nice he said).

John? Any idea about how to get around this? Like I said, around here they
make your car sit so it is cold and not real hot to help burn off the extra
bad stuff. That undoes all the things we used to do like drive like a
banshee the hour leading up to the appointment. Then the car was so hot it
burned up everything even at idle.

But true about the test pipe and visual test on the cat. It is illegal to
sell a car without a cat. Not sure how "illegal" it is to drive without one
but they clearly do not pass inspection (emission) without one.

- --Flash!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 22:19:16 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Setting up the brakes.

Okay I will try that although I thought in the book it said you can do a
60-0 test. Since the G-Tech knows when you are doing 60 just from being
plugged in to the cigarette lighter (garsh I like technology) then you can
cruise along at 65 mph until a nice flat stretch and hammer the brakes.
Anyway, I have tried 0-60 and that works and if I keep going it does 1/4
mile time and trap speed and then hitting the brakes gets me to 1,300 feet
stopping distance instead of 200 feet or something. I'll have to fiddle
with it tomorrow on my way to the flat state of Ohio, nobody in the car, no
track tires in the car.

Since this is a brake topic I will try to see if ABS kicks in or if I leave
any marks on the road from the rear tires, etc. Stay tuned.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:23 PM

You have to use the ¼ mile setup --- anytime you get over 60 you can hit the
brakes and it should give you your 60-0. I don't have my book handy you may
have to drive ¼ mile first though.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:21:23 -0700
From: Richard <radanc@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dynapack chassis dynamometer

Good article in most recent version of Sport Compact Car and AWD car
dynoing on the dynapac.

Kevin Schappell wrote:
>
> Never used one, but TurboXS is supposed to be getting an AWD version soon.
> They might already have it. http://www.turboxs.com They are in MD for you
> guys on the East Coast. The DynaPack is very repeatable, but not sure how
> accurate. It's perfect for getting comparisons between upgrades due to it's
> sensitivity and repeatability.
>
> Kevin Schappell
> http://kevin.schappell.com
> Save money on all of your speed parts.
> http://www.SpeedShoppers.com
>
> >
> > Anybody here every used this dyno on a 3S car? Or any car for that
> > matter?
> >
> > Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #621
***************************************