Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, September 19 2001 Volume 01 : Number 617

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:14:28 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen. Since
then, the brakes perform very well.

Challenges we have encountered:

1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads that
generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen with the
Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on the
track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.

2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
probably the route we we take.

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff VanOrsdal [SMTP:jeffv@1nce.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:57 AM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
>
> I was looking around Brembo's website today and noticed they have listings
> for the Stealth and 3000GT on their brake upgrade page. Apparently it's
> under development because the part number is only listed as "TBA" I'm
> left
> wondering how this will compare to the various adapted Porsche upgrades
> that
> guys like Brad and KVR have built. Does anyone have more information on
> this setup?
>
> The parts page is at the following link:
> http://www.brembo.com/prod_highperform.html
>
> Jeff VanOrsdal
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
> jeffv@1nce.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:17:44 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

... whereas now us fat, middle aged owners are more worried about how to get
the car to slow down faster!

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne [SMTP:whietala@prodigy.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:58 AM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
>
> The reason this guy disabled the AWD was not because he was more
> comfortable with RWD, or did not know how to drive an AWD. He did it to
> eliminate the weakest link in our drivetrain.....the tranny/transfer. Keep
>
> in mind that he was building a 575+hp/550 ft-lb engine back in 93, when
> most TT owners were middle aged business men who's last thought was making
>
> the car faster.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:29:22 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: Team3S: Gauge displays

Are the tach and center gauge displays simple pieces of paper or are they
actual gauge? s? Is it possible to rotate them (such as putting redline at
the 12 o'clock position or oil and water temps at the 12 o'clock position)?
Obviously, any aftermarket gauge pod can be rotated to any direction but how
about the tach?

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:34:52 +0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

What size are the rotors on you sons "F40" setup?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>

> My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:37:59 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

But we all know that the weakest links are brakes or for the go-fast people
it is the understeering. How much to convert to a RWD? $5,000? What can
you get for $5,000? One heck of a nice setup on suspension, brakes,
anti-sway and strut tower bars. It would out-corner most road cars (I've
seen proof of this).

Whatever. Most of us know the real beauty to these cars but there are some
bold people (Jeff V I think?) who are doing some fantastically wonderful
things like putting a VR-4 engine in a Stealth base or something like that.

Garsh this list is fun sometimes.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:58 AM

The reason this guy disabled the AWD was not because he was more
comfortable with RWD, or did not know how to drive an AWD. He did it to
eliminate the weakest link in our drivetrain.....the tranny/transfer. Keep
in mind that he was building a 575+hp/550 ft-lb engine back in 93, when
most TT owners were middle aged business men who's last thought was making
the car faster.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:37:04 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse

Correct, correct (hide my head) ;-)) One on each bank is all you have.

Best

Darc

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Cc: <greggonzo1@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse

> Correction - on a '92 TT there are two O2 sensors. One for each cylinder
> bank.
>
> Oskar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
> To: "Greg Gonzales" <greggonzo1@hotmail.com>; "Stealth Net"
> <stealth@stls.verio.net>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse
>
>
> > Black soot is normal. Mine has been that way from day 1. They burn rich
> and
> > even moreso with a test pipe. 1 O2 sensor is all you have. Try another
> PCV,
> > and insure your air cleaner doesn't have too much oil spray limiting
> intake.
> > The only other thing I can think of is switching to another fuel. Try
> > Chevron, or if using that, try another.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Darc

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:44:50 -0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gauge displays

The canter cluster is one large molded plastic assembly. It would be very
difficult to rotate the gauges due to the plastic light baffles and various
other things in the pod. You would be looking at a totally custom solution
after it's all said and done. I think Jeff Lucius has some pictures of the
removed cluster on his site.

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Darren Schilberg
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:29 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Gauge displays

Are the tach and center gauge displays simple pieces of paper or are they
actual gauge? s? Is it possible to rotate them (such as putting redline at
the 12 o'clock position or oil and water temps at the 12 o'clock position)?
Obviously, any aftermarket gauge pod can be rotated to any direction but how
about the tach?

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:43:29 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

Those rotors are shown as 355 mm x 28 mm. I think the Big Red rotors are
stock VR-4 rotors which are 335 (or 325). Are we sure that this size fits
under a 17" wheel? I seem to recall that this is either real close or won't
fit under anything but 18" wheels unless some big spacers or hub mods are
put in.

Looks good though since some of us Big Red people are looking for more
stopping power.

Chuck, aren't Mike's rotors the ones that you have to line up and pound on
with a hammer or was that a one-time occurrence?

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and stock Porterfield rotors

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:14 AM

My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen. Since
then, the brakes perform very well.

Challenges we have encountered:

1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads that
generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen with the
Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on the
track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.

2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
probably the route we we take.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

> 2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
> Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
> probably the route we we take.

Chamfer the edges of the pad, sometimes that helps a lot.

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:51 +0100
From: jd@edge-software.com
Subject: Re: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

In response to the original request for info...

Todd S. has some picks from that article on his site: http://www.qsl.net/n5mya/stealth1.html
Goto the "Other Owner's cars" link... Perez

-JD

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:53:38 -0700
From: bob <eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gauge displays

With the talk of guages........how hard is it to convert to the indigo guages on ebay?
could it be done in say a saturday?

bobK.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:29 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Gauge displays

Are the tach and center gauge displays simple pieces of paper or are they
actual gauge? s? Is it possible to rotate them (such as putting redline at
the 12 o'clock position or oil and water temps at the 12 o'clock position)?
Obviously, any aftermarket gauge pod can be rotated to any direction but how
about the tach?

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:14:06 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

Those were the rotors with hat's Mike's uncle painted apparently with a huge
overbuild. One time occurance.

I'm digging through email to find the diameter of Mike's rotors.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:43 AM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
>
> Those rotors are shown as 355 mm x 28 mm. I think the Big Red rotors are
> stock VR-4 rotors which are 335 (or 325). Are we sure that this size fits
> under a 17" wheel? I seem to recall that this is either real close or
> won't
> fit under anything but 18" wheels unless some big spacers or hub mods are
> put in.
>
> Looks good though since some of us Big Red people are looking for more
> stopping power.
>
> Chuck, aren't Mike's rotors the ones that you have to line up and pound on
> with a hammer or was that a one-time occurrence?
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and stock Porterfield rotors
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E.
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:14 AM
>
> My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
> initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen. Since
> then, the brakes perform very well.
>
> Challenges we have encountered:
>
> 1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads that
> generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen with
> the
> Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on the
> track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.
>
> 2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
> Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
> probably the route we we take.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:03:18 -0700
From: "Watkins, Jim" <jim.watkins@terayon.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fuel Guage

My fuel guage has failed recently. It indicates empty now when I know there
is over 1/2 tank. I haven't checked the CAPS program yet to see whether the
fuel pump and guage sending unit are separate part numbers. Does anybody
know? The yellow light is not part of the same electronics, right? Any
possibility that this would be an electrical problem and not the fault of
the sending unit?

Jim
95 3000GT VR4 Spyder

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:02:27 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

On the Max Cottrell pic isn't that custom? It looks like a power sunroof on
a Stealth.

- -----Original Message-----
From: jd@edge-software.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 5:51 AM

In response to the original request for info...

Todd S. has some picks from that article on his site:
http://www.qsl.net/n5mya/stealth1.html
Goto the "Other Owner's cars" link... Perez

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:07:58 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

Here is the truth about VR4 rotor diameters, except I didn't find my numbers
for the 1st gen rotors., but I'll get them tonight at home.
Stock 2nd Gen rotor diameter = 310 mm or 12 1/4"
Stillen Brembo upgrade rotor = 318 mm or 12 1/2"
Jim's Brad Bedelll custom two piece rotor = 324 mm or 12 3/4" custom made by
Porterfield for Brad for Jim
These are real diameters, not "effective diameters" that you see in the
Service manual.

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:43 AM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
>
> Those rotors are shown as 355 mm x 28 mm. I think the Big Red rotors are
> stock VR-4 rotors which are 335 (or 325). Are we sure that this size fits
> under a 17" wheel? I seem to recall that this is either real close or
> won't
> fit under anything but 18" wheels unless some big spacers or hub mods are
> put in.
>
> Looks good though since some of us Big Red people are looking for more
> stopping power.
>
> Chuck, aren't Mike's rotors the ones that you have to line up and pound on
> with a hammer or was that a one-time occurrence?
>
> --Flash!
> 1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and stock Porterfield rotors
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E.
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:14 AM
>
> My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
> initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen. Since
> then, the brakes perform very well.
>
> Challenges we have encountered:
>
> 1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads that
> generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen with
> the
> Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on the
> track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.
>
> 2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
> Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
> probably the route we we take.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

Charles: Im ready to start having those rotors build for the BRs if I can
get someone to measure the width of the rotor face on the BACK of the
rotor.

On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:

> Here is the truth about VR4 rotor diameters, except I didn't find my numbers
> for the 1st gen rotors., but I'll get them tonight at home.
> Stock 2nd Gen rotor diameter = 310 mm or 12 1/4"
> Stillen Brembo upgrade rotor = 318 mm or 12 1/2"
> Jim's Brad Bedelll custom two piece rotor = 324 mm or 12 3/4" custom made by
> Porterfield for Brad for Jim
> These are real diameters, not "effective diameters" that you see in the
> Service manual.
>
> Chuck Willis
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:43 AM
> > To: Team3s Tech List
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
> >
> > Those rotors are shown as 355 mm x 28 mm. I think the Big Red rotors are
> > stock VR-4 rotors which are 335 (or 325). Are we sure that this size fits
> > under a 17" wheel? I seem to recall that this is either real close or
> > won't
> > fit under anything but 18" wheels unless some big spacers or hub mods are
> > put in.
> >
> > Looks good though since some of us Big Red people are looking for more
> > stopping power.
> >
> > Chuck, aren't Mike's rotors the ones that you have to line up and pound on
> > with a hammer or was that a one-time occurrence?
> >
> > --Flash!
> > 1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and stock Porterfield rotors
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Willis, Charles E.
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:14 AM
> >
> > My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
> > initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen. Since
> > then, the brakes perform very well.
> >
> > Challenges we have encountered:
> >
> > 1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads that
> > generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen with
> > the
> > Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on the
> > track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.
> >
> > 2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
> > Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
> > probably the route we we take.

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:18:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Guage

The fuel gauge and low warning sensor are both integral with and sold
with the fuel pump assembly (with pump) as one part for a list price
of $465.87 - MB698858 for turbo and MB698857 for the other models. If
it is the sending unit, then I bet it can be repaired. It looks to me
(from tearing these apart) that the float runs a "needle" across a
wound coil of wire - a "variable resistor" I think its called or
something like that. It is also possible that a wire is partly
shorted or grounded somewhere. Not sure how you would check the
gauge, but you can check the sender with a volt-ohm-meter. Start at
the sender and work forward.

For pics of the assemblies:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius8/j8-2-fuelpumps.htm

For pump removal:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-fuelpump.htm

For part numbers, prices, diagrams:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-mitchell.htm

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Watkins, Jim" <jim.watkins@terayon.com>
To: "Team3S (E-mail)" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:03 AM
Subject: Team3S: Fuel Guage

My fuel guage has failed recently. It indicates empty now when I
know there is over 1/2 tank. I haven't checked the CAPS program yet
to see whether the fuel pump and guage sending unit are separate part
numbers. Does anybody know? The yellow light is not part of the
same electronics, right? Any possibility that this would be an
electrical problem and not the fault of the sending unit?

Jim
95 3000GT VR4 Spyder

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:23:35 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S: Brakes

If I upgrade to 2nd gen rotors and second gen calipers (front) , is there
any clearance problem with 1st gen rims on a 92 TT? I suspect not, but need
feedback from those who have the setup as described and not with aftermarket
wheels.

Darc

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:42:36 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

The weakest link is the brakes???? I've never heard of anybody stranded on
the side of the road because they're brakes failed. Mitsu stopped rallying
these cars because they kept blowing up transmissions/transfers, not
because they were flying off mountains due to faulty brakes. Don't get me
wrong, i am a large fan of AWD, and would NEVER convert to RWD or FWD. Back
in 93 when this conversion took place, 3 out of 5 VR-4's were returning to
the dealer to get the faulty trans/x-fer replaced. And this was with a
stock car pushing 300hp. This was obviously the weakest link for a person
modifying to 550hp to consider. I personally feel that these brakes are far
superior to any other car in it's near price range.

Whoever it was that initiated this post......if you want a copy of the
article i have, just send me your address, and i'll mail it to you.

Wayne

At 08:37 AM 9/19/01 , Darren Schilberg wrote:
>But we all know that the weakest links are brakes or for the go-fast people
>it is the understeering. How much to convert to a RWD? $5,000? What can
>you get for $5,000? One heck of a nice setup on suspension, brakes,
>anti-sway and strut tower bars. It would out-corner most road cars (I've
>seen proof of this).
>
>--Flash!
>1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:45:37 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes

We should have a website called
"www.firstgenwheelswillnotfitsecondgenbrakes.com" LOL
It seems like this topic is covered on a bi-monthly basis.

W

At 11:23 AM 9/19/01 , Darc wrote:
>If I upgrade to 2nd gen rotors and second gen calipers (front) , is there
>any clearance problem with 1st gen rims on a 92 TT? I suspect not, but need
>feedback from those who have the setup as described and not with aftermarket
>wheels.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:04:10 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

I believe I have these measurmenets for the Stillen upgrade rotors at home,
else my son can measure his spare set ...

For the Big Red's they are just made to work with the stock front rotors -I
have these measurmeents at home for sure.

by width of the rotor face on the back of the rotor, do you mean the
annulus?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:15 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
>
> Charles: Im ready to start having those rotors build for the BRs if I can
> get someone to measure the width of the rotor face on the BACK of the
> rotor.
>
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
>
> > Here is the truth about VR4 rotor diameters, except I didn't find my
> numbers
> > for the 1st gen rotors., but I'll get them tonight at home.
> > Stock 2nd Gen rotor diameter = 310 mm or 12 1/4"
> > Stillen Brembo upgrade rotor = 318 mm or 12 1/2"
> > Jim's Brad Bedelll custom two piece rotor = 324 mm or 12 3/4" custom
> made by
> > Porterfield for Brad for Jim
> > These are real diameters, not "effective diameters" that you see in the
> > Service manual.
> >
> > Chuck Willis
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:43 AM
> > > To: Team3s Tech List
> > > Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
> > >
> > > Those rotors are shown as 355 mm x 28 mm. I think the Big Red rotors
> are
> > > stock VR-4 rotors which are 335 (or 325). Are we sure that this size
> fits
> > > under a 17" wheel? I seem to recall that this is either real close or
> > > won't
> > > fit under anything but 18" wheels unless some big spacers or hub mods
> are
> > > put in.
> > >
> > > Looks good though since some of us Big Red people are looking for more
> > > stopping power.
> > >
> > > Chuck, aren't Mike's rotors the ones that you have to line up and
> pound on
> > > with a hammer or was that a one-time occurrence?
> > >
> > > --Flash!
> > > 1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and stock Porterfield rotors
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Willis, Charles E.
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:14 AM
> > >
> > > My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
> > > initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen.
> Since
> > > then, the brakes perform very well.
> > >
> > > Challenges we have encountered:
> > >
> > > 1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads
> that
> > > generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen
> with
> > > the
> > > Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on
> the
> > > track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.
> > >
> > > 2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very
> expensive.
> > > Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet.
> This is
> > > probably the route we we take.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:08:57 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes

there is barely enough clearance (as in not really enough) for 1st gen 17"
VR4 wheels to get past 2nd gen calipers. You would need 2nd gen 17" wheels
or 18" wheels.
Dont' know about Stealth wheels.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darc [SMTP:wce@telus.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:24 PM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Team3S: Brakes
>
> If I upgrade to 2nd gen rotors and second gen calipers (front) , is there
> any clearance problem with 1st gen rims on a 92 TT? I suspect not, but
> need
> feedback from those who have the setup as described and not with
> aftermarket
> wheels.
>
> Darc

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

Well, I was just wondering if you have the #s for the 2pc rotor Brad had
made, thats the measurement I need.

On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:

> I believe I have these measurmenets for the Stillen upgrade rotors at home,
> else my son can measure his spare set ...
>
> For the Big Red's they are just made to work with the stock front rotors -I
> have these measurmeents at home for sure.
>
> by width of the rotor face on the back of the rotor, do you mean the
> annulus?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:15 PM
> > To: Willis, Charles E.
> > Cc: Team3s Tech List
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
> >
> > Charles: Im ready to start having those rotors build for the BRs if I can
> > get someone to measure the width of the rotor face on the BACK of the
> > rotor.
> >
> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> >
> > > Here is the truth about VR4 rotor diameters, except I didn't find my
> > numbers
> > > for the 1st gen rotors., but I'll get them tonight at home.
> > > Stock 2nd Gen rotor diameter = 310 mm or 12 1/4"
> > > Stillen Brembo upgrade rotor = 318 mm or 12 1/2"
> > > Jim's Brad Bedelll custom two piece rotor = 324 mm or 12 3/4" custom
> > made by
> > > Porterfield for Brad for Jim
> > > These are real diameters, not "effective diameters" that you see in the
> > > Service manual.
> > >
> > > Chuck Willis
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:43 AM
> > > > To: Team3s Tech List
> > > > Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
> > > >
> > > > Those rotors are shown as 355 mm x 28 mm. I think the Big Red rotors
> > are
> > > > stock VR-4 rotors which are 335 (or 325). Are we sure that this size
> > fits
> > > > under a 17" wheel? I seem to recall that this is either real close or
> > > > won't
> > > > fit under anything but 18" wheels unless some big spacers or hub mods
> > are
> > > > put in.
> > > >
> > > > Looks good though since some of us Big Red people are looking for more
> > > > stopping power.
> > > >
> > > > Chuck, aren't Mike's rotors the ones that you have to line up and
> > pound on
> > > > with a hammer or was that a one-time occurrence?
> > > >
> > > > --Flash!
> > > > 1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and stock Porterfield rotors
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Willis, Charles E.
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:14 AM
> > > >
> > > > My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
> > > > initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen.
> > Since
> > > > then, the brakes perform very well.
> > > >
> > > > Challenges we have encountered:
> > > >
> > > > 1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads
> > that
> > > > generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't happen
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on
> > the
> > > > track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.
> > > >
> > > > 2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very
> > expensive.
> > > > Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet.
> > This is
> > > > probably the route we we take.

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:25:08 -0600
From: Dave Monarchi <monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes

RE: 'there is barely enough clearance (as in not really enough) for 1st
gen 17" VR4 wheels to get past 2nd gen calipers.'

Nope. not true. not at all. been there. tried that. wrote the
128 emails describing the reasons why. check the archives. you can
physically force the wheel on by cranking the bolts down, but the
wheel will have a small friction problem. As in it won't turn.

http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~monarchd/3000gt/wheels.html

I only make a point of this because I heard similar statements which
caused me to waste a whole lot of time trying this.

2nd gen 17" wheels apparently do work, but I haven't seen it first
hand.

Dave
=======================
= 95 Black 3000GT VR4 =
= 87 Mica Red GTI G60 = http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~monarchd/cars.html
= There is no spoon.. =
=======================

+> there is barely enough clearance (as in not really enough) for 1st gen 17"
+> VR4 wheels to get past 2nd gen calipers. You would need 2nd gen 17" wheels
+> or 18" wheels.
+> Dont' know about Stealth wheels.
+>
+> > -----Original Message-----
+> > From: Darc [SMTP:wce@telus.net]
+> > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:24 PM
+> > To: Team3S
+> > Subject: Team3S: Brakes
+> >
+> > If I upgrade to 2nd gen rotors and second gen calipers (front) , is there
+> > any clearance problem with 1st gen rims on a 92 TT? I suspect not, but
+> > need
+> > feedback from those who have the setup as described and not with
+> > aftermarket
+> > wheels.
+> >
+> > Darc

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:23:28 -0600
From: Desert Fox <bigfoot@simmgene.com>
Subject: Team3S: Oil levels

My dipstick measures even on both sides. Do I have a defective car or
dipstick?

Flash: You shouldn't be hittin' the crack pipe prior to checking your oil
level!;-)

I used to run with the oil level at the full mark. However, after scouring
the web, it seems to me that the over-full situation is potentially much
more detrimental than being a quart low. I have read that oil circulation is
improved if the oil level is in between the full and low marks. Also 1 quart
less weight for those embarking on an automotive "diet".

Bueller? Bueller? Anybody care to comment?

I run Amsoil Series 2000 0-30 full synthetic. I change the FILTER every 3K
and top it off with fresh oil, to somewhere between the full and low marks
(no crosshatching on mine either). I do a full drain oil change every 6K or
so. Oil analysis has shown that I could even run longer between changes but
old habits die hard especially when talking about one of our dear 3KGT's.

I've been milking my clutch now for over 6K. No slippage in 1st or 2nd but
3rd through 5th require serious throttle control. I can however speed uphill
at over 120mph in 6th on cruise without any slippage. Strange... When I get
a new clutch, I'm sure it will be like riding a cruise missile!

Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:45:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Oil levels

> more detrimental than being a quart low. I have read that oil circulation is
> improved if the oil level is in between the full and low marks. Also 1 quart
> less weight for those embarking on an automotive "diet".
- ---
its like this. It may cost some HP ro ru "full" as opposed to a quart
low, that can be for a few things:

1) Less oil = hotter oil. Oil is a huge heatsink for your motor. Hotter
oil runs thinner, pumps easier, less drag in the bearings = more Hp.
2) Less oil = less overhead for when you are stressing the overall system.

Now, its possible that FULL oil may cause foaming or other parasitic
issues with the crankshaft as it impacts oil in the pan..but thats purely
hypotheitcal with 0 fact behind it (on our cars).

Since nobody has any actual data on whether it is GOOD to run a quart low
constantly, Id suggest not doing it at all.

> Bueller? Bueller? Anybody care to comment?
>
> I run Amsoil Series 2000 0-30 full synthetic. I change the FILTER every 3K
> and top it off with fresh oil, to somewhere between the full and low marks
> (no crosshatching on mine either). I do a full drain oil change every 6K or
> so. Oil analysis has shown that I could even run longer between changes but
> old habits die hard especially when talking about one of our dear 3KGT's.
>
> I've been milking my clutch now for over 6K. No slippage in 1st or 2nd but
> 3rd through 5th require serious throttle control. I can however speed uphill
> at over 120mph in 6th on cruise without any slippage. Strange... When I get
> a new clutch, I'm sure it will be like riding a cruise missile!
>
>
> --
> Paul/.
> 95 black 3000GT VR-4
> 98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
> formerly reasonable and prudent

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:27:53 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

I am looking forward to seeing this project take shape.

The interesting thing here is that the person who originally asked for the
article did not state what he was going to use the car for after having
converted it to RWD. It is just the assumption by someone that it is going
to be a road racer. Thus the in-depth discussion about cornering abilities
and inadequate brakes.

Hmm... wonder what type of cornering problems Bushur experienced with his
RWD Talon drag car...

Oskar

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne" <whietala@prodigy.net>
To: <Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

> The weakest link is the brakes???? I've never heard of anybody stranded on
> the side of the road because they're brakes failed. Mitsu stopped rallying
> these cars because they kept blowing up transmissions/transfers, not
> because they were flying off mountains due to faulty brakes. Don't get me
> wrong, i am a large fan of AWD, and would NEVER convert to RWD or FWD.
Back
> in 93 when this conversion took place, 3 out of 5 VR-4's were returning to
> the dealer to get the faulty trans/x-fer replaced. And this was with a
> stock car pushing 300hp. This was obviously the weakest link for a person
> modifying to 550hp to consider. I personally feel that these brakes are
far
> superior to any other car in it's near price range.
>
> Whoever it was that initiated this post......if you want a copy of the
> article i have, just send me your address, and i'll mail it to you.
>
> Wayne
>
> At 08:37 AM 9/19/01 , Darren Schilberg wrote:
> >But we all know that the weakest links are brakes or for the go-fast
people
> >it is the understeering. How much to convert to a RWD? $5,000? What
can
> >you get for $5,000? One heck of a nice setup on suspension, brakes,
> >anti-sway and strut tower bars. It would out-corner most road cars (I've
> >seen proof of this).
> >
> >--Flash!
> >1995 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 15:32:18 -0400
From: "rjmsmail@swbell.net" <rjmsmail@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Shifter pops out of 4th gear: 1994 3000gt SL

Interesting, I have always had the problem of it occasionally coming out of reverse when I FINALLY get it into gear, it once came out with a very LOUD thud that made me think the transmission had fallen out (dealer said they had no problems with it when I was having them put in a new clutch about 20,000 miles ago). I was on level ground at the time and it hasn't happened again, I will check all of the transmission linkage bolts to see if anything is loose or broken.
Bob
1994 Mitsubishi dark green 3000gt SL
1986 Regal black and grey T-Type, WH1 Designer package

tribute to the victims and America:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/IceWalker/ATributetotheVictimsandFamily.html
*************************************************************************

> is it probably just worn bearings (synchros?), something that I can't fix
by
> removing the shifter boot?

You might try removing the shift boot and tightening the linkage. This has
helped many people fix their reverse gear. You'll understand which linkage
when you take off the boot and move the stick around a little. Good luck,

- -Paul - 3Si1127

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:44:21 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Oil levels

I know that when I am a quart low on brain cells, it is not a good
situation :-) I think the same holds true for the engine. Keep it full but
never over full. The engineers who designed it have figured the optimum
operating oil level when they placed the marks they have given us on the
dipstick. It's likely a bit low, if you get what I mean, when it says full.
It's not good to run a quart low, it accelerates engine wear...and in the
case of brains, it's horrific (ie the morning after syndrome)

Best

Darc

snip>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> 1) Less oil = hotter oil. Oil is a huge heatsink for your motor. Hotter
> oil runs thinner, pumps easier, less drag in the bearings = more Hp.
> 2) Less oil = less overhead for when you are stressing the overall system.
>
> Now, its possible that FULL oil may cause foaming or other parasitic
> issues with the crankshaft as it impacts oil in the pan..but thats purely
> hypotheitcal with 0 fact behind it (on our cars).
>
> Since nobody has any actual data on whether it is GOOD to run a quart low
> constantly, Id suggest not doing it at all.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:31:46 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)

<grin> Thanks, Oskar. Bushur had no problems with cornering since he did
not take any corners. And ask ANY road racer and the weak link are brakes.
In one day (two sessions) you can burn through a set of brakes. Nobody
breaks the tranny because you never use first gear on a road course and
never get much into 5th or 6th except for long courses like Road Atlanta and
Road America (6th is never touched on a road course). But we have been able
to crack a brand new set of cross-drilled rotors in three sessions or wear
down a set of race pads in three sessions. Brakes are weak.

Suspension to a lesser point but I have stock suspension, Big Red brakes,
Pagid Orange pads and still wear down a set of pads in about three events.
Tranny is still going strong (yes it was replaced but I bought the car after
someone else abused it for 40k so that was none of my doing really).

Not to start a flame war. Brakes are weak on the car (to a road racer). I
do not drag so I don't get into those discussions. Also, the intercoolers
are weak when doing long WOT runs (and to a lesser extent the drag racer).
Then there is the stock boost level that is weak.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 daily driver and open track car

- -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 2:43 PM

The weakest link is the brakes???? I've never heard of anybody stranded on
the side of the road because they're brakes failed. Mitsu stopped rallying
these cars because they kept blowing up transmissions/transfers, not
because they were flying off mountains due to faulty brakes. Don't get me
wrong, i am a large fan of AWD, and would NEVER convert to RWD or FWD. Back
in 93 when this conversion took place, 3 out of 5 VR-4's were returning to
the dealer to get the faulty trans/x-fer replaced. And this was with a
stock car pushing 300hp. This was obviously the weakest link for a person
modifying to 550hp to consider. I personally feel that these brakes are far
superior to any other car in it's near price range.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:17:51 -0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Only drained 2 qts engine oil during change!

I commend G.M. on their newer car designs. The dipstick has little holes in
it to catch oil making it very easy to read. They def. do some things
right!

Sam
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Only drained 2 qts engine oil during change!

>> We all have our own unique ways of dealing with the car's
>> oddities. Mine was more of a suggestion to get his results
>> (to get 5 quarts to come out you put 5 quarts in not enough
>> to get it to full and then drain again since this will ONLY
>> be the oil pan and not the oil cooler, oil lines, etc.).
>
>There really shouldn't be any oddities with reading the dipstick. Sure,
you
>might get a little oil on the edges of the stick from the dipstick tube,
but
>the reading in the center of the flat portion should be consistent every
>time. I suppose if you've got way too much oil in there and the oil is
>climbing into the dipstick tube it wouldn't be accurate anymore.
>
>I dunno, check your oil level however you want I guess.
>
>Sometimes I wonder why I even post here anymore. Nobody listens.
>
>???
>
>-Matt
>'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:22:56 -0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensors and Stillen DP

The Stillen pipe I have has the bungs pre-welded for you with plugs given in
case you have a 1st gen car. I planned on using them for EGT measurements,
but was told its too far to be of any use.

Sam
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: Morice, Francis <francis.morice@retek.com>
Cc: Team3S (E-mail) <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensors and Stillen DP

>Yes, you will have to weld in bungs for everything to remain happy. Make
>sure you place them the same distance from the turbos as before, as how
>much heat they see, directly affects how well they perform..and how well
>your motor performs as well.
>
>On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Morice, Francis wrote:
>
>> I just ordered a Borla catback and a Stillen DP and I was wondering what
I
>> have to do with the 2 O2 sensors that are on the stock DP. Do I need to
weld
>> bungs on the Stillen DP and the test pipe, or can I just not use them ? I
>> hope to be installing it this weekend, so any help would be greatly
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>> Francis
>> '96 RT/TT (with OBII and too many O2 sensors)
>> - Test pipe, gutted precats, AVC-R, RPS TCC, Supra Fuel Pump, Goodridge
>> Steel Braided Lines, Porterfield Cryo/Crossdrilled Rotors, R4S pads,
>> Autometer Boost Gauge, GC Springs(500/ 300 f/r), HKS Megaflow filter, 1G
DSM
>> BOV, Spearco WI

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #617
***************************************

Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, September 20 2001 Volume 01 : Number 618

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:04:28 -0400
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@mediaone.net>
Subject: Boost levels (was Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins)

Thanks a lot for the info. I think I'm gonna yank the Street Glows and wait
until I can afford a true HID conversion...

On a different subject, I was reading this article (link at the bottom) and
it was saying that the car was running at 28 psi and the owner wanted to run
it at 35. I'm just trying to figure out the gapping hole between those
levels and what are considered "safe" levels for our cars (< 15 psi).
Where's it coming from?

http://www.turbomagazine.com/archives/features/1001_features01.jsp

Thanks,

Alex

'95 VR4

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>; "Geoff Mohler"
<gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>; <DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com>; <BBradle@Putman.net>
Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins

> > It is not wise to put in higher wattage bulbs
> >without giving due consideration to what this is going to do to the
wiring,
> >the battery draw, the charging system, and the fuses.
> >
> When we ran a Pro rally car, we had six 100W lamps up front. Four were
> sealed-beam aircraft landing lights, and two were 10-in. Marchal 100W
> iodine-quartz driving lights. We lit up the night.
>
> I worked for an engineering firm at the time, so we knew enough to wire
> every single lamp directly from a rugged industrial switch panel, and to
> fuse each lamp separately. Other competitors who tried to tie into the
> stock Datsun 510 headlight wiring system -- even with separate relays --
> often found themselves at the side of the road, patching their electrics
at
> 3:00 a.m. Other than running down the battery with our stock Datsun 45 A
> alternator, we had no problem with our electrics. We installed a 70 A
> alternator and fixed the run-down problem. We also ran two #2 cables (one
> positive, one negative) from the rear-mounted battery to avoid rusting out
> the frame.
>
> Let there be light.
>
> Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Boost levels (was Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins)

On the bulb topic..

Beware high-wattage tinted bulbs.

They -are- darker than OEM clear ones.

On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Alex Pedenko wrote:

> Thanks a lot for the info. I think I'm gonna yank the Street Glows and wait
> until I can afford a true HID conversion...
>
> On a different subject, I was reading this article (link at the bottom) and
> it was saying that the car was running at 28 psi and the owner wanted to run
> it at 35. I'm just trying to figure out the gapping hole between those
> levels and what are considered "safe" levels for our cars (< 15 psi).
> Where's it coming from?
>
> http://www.turbomagazine.com/archives/features/1001_features01.jsp
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex
>
> '95 VR4
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
> To: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>; "Geoff Mohler"
> <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>; <DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com>; <BBradle@Putman.net>
> Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins
>
> > > It is not wise to put in higher wattage bulbs
> > >without giving due consideration to what this is going to do to the
> wiring,
> > >the battery draw, the charging system, and the fuses.
> > >
> > When we ran a Pro rally car, we had six 100W lamps up front. Four were
> > sealed-beam aircraft landing lights, and two were 10-in. Marchal 100W
> > iodine-quartz driving lights. We lit up the night.
> >
> > I worked for an engineering firm at the time, so we knew enough to wire
> > every single lamp directly from a rugged industrial switch panel, and to
> > fuse each lamp separately. Other competitors who tried to tie into the
> > stock Datsun 510 headlight wiring system -- even with separate relays --
> > often found themselves at the side of the road, patching their electrics
> at
> > 3:00 a.m. Other than running down the battery with our stock Datsun 45 A
> > alternator, we had no problem with our electrics. We installed a 70 A
> > alternator and fixed the run-down problem. We also ran two #2 cables (one
> > positive, one negative) from the rear-mounted battery to avoid rusting out
> > the frame.
> >
> > Let there be light.
> >
> > Rich/old poop

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:04:22 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Boost levels

> On a different subject, I was reading this article (link
> at the bottom) and it was saying that the car was running
> at 28 psi and the owner wanted to run it at 35. I'm just
> trying to figure out the gapping hole between those
> levels and what are considered "safe" levels for our
> cars (< 15 psi). Where's it coming from?

A few factors...

The Supra engine starts off with being less detonation-prone than our motor.
I'd guess (just a guess) that their head has a better combustion chamber
design than ours.

He has JE forged pistons - our stock cast pistons are only good to somewhere
around 22 psi on a good day with race fuel.

He has Crower rods. Haven't really heard about problems with our rods, but
there aren't that many people that run huge boost on our motors so the
amount of data isn't that large.

He's got 720cc injectors - plenty of fuel for running that kind of boost.
Don't even think of running that high on stock Mitsu 380cc injectors.
(You'll hit fuel cut way before you get that high anyways though).

...and of course you need to have larger (and more efficient at that
pressure level) turbos to get that kind of boost in the first place.

A properly prepped 3/S could probably run higher boost on pump gas without
excessive knock - but you need to have great ways of monitoring what's going
on with the motor so that you can determine what is safe for your particular
setup if you are going to tune to the ragged edge. You can cheat and run
more boost on a not-so-properly-prepped car by running water injection or
alcohol injection to prevent detonation. I'm also going to be using colder
plugs in my motor to see if I can get some more headroom before detonation
once I get my motor back together. I suspect at least some of the
knock/detonation is coming from too-hot plugs.

Obviously you can see that the guy who built up that Supra did a number of
things to make it survive those kinds of boost levels. With similar care on
a 3/S motor you might be able to get closer to those numbers. The question
is: how do you do it, and what's the recipe to get there?

Also keep in mind that the 28 psi number is being run on a combination of
110 race fuel and pump gas which should have a higher detonation threshold.
35 psi is probably high enough to cause serious damage to the
pistons/crank/rods if the tuning isn't dead-on, even on 118 octane race
fuel.

If you start enhancing parts of the car (more efficient intercoolers, better
fuel control, better base timing control, more exotic per-cylinder
knock-based timing control, etc.) then you can start going past the 15 psi
"accepted safe" number - but monitor knock somehow (which on your '95 you
are limited in your choices).

Of course, you always want to be a little skeptical of what the magazines
print. They just repeat what the owner hands them - these numbers could be
"inflated" (ie: was it really 100 degrees in the dyno room, or was it really
60 degrees and the corrected/plotted numbers are incorrectly corrected?).
I'm not saying they are, just saying that magazines don't necessarily always
get the facts right.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

Hi Jeff,

The Brembo TBA goes way back to 1998. I had
corresponded with a Brembo guy named ??? Collins I
think. Nothing ever came of their TBA back then. I
suspect they decided not to persue as the MOVIT and
Brad's Big Red kit were available.

Also Brembo reportedly is the manufacturer, to
Porsche's specification, of the BIG RED caliper.

Be of good cheer,
John

- --- Jeff VanOrsdal <jeffv@1nce.com> wrote:
> I was looking around Brembo's website today and
> noticed they have listings
> for the Stealth and 3000GT on their brake upgrade
> page. Apparently it's
> under development because the part number is only
> listed as "TBA" I'm left
> wondering how this will compare to the various
> adapted Porsche upgrades that
> guys like Brad and KVR have built. Does anyone have
> more information on
> this setup?
>
> The parts page is at the following link:
> http://www.brembo.com/prod_highperform.html
>
> Jeff VanOrsdal
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
> jeffv@1nce.com

Please respond to jczoom@iname.com
'93 TT with Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH 5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 20:25:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes

Hi Darc,

NO, NO, NO. The 92 & 93 TT rims will NOT clear the
94+ rotor/caliper system......

Been there -- tried to do that. Cost me $$$$ for new
rims.

Sorry for the dissapointing news.

Be of good cheer,
John

- --- Darc <wce@telus.net> wrote:
> If I upgrade to 2nd gen rotors and second gen
> calipers (front) , is there
> any clearance problem with 1st gen rims on a 92 TT?
> I suspect not, but need
> feedback from those who have the setup as described
> and not with aftermarket
> wheels.
>
> Darc

* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:37:20 -0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Team3S: Rear Pre-Cat Gutting

Well, all I got to say is that sucked!! I just got finisthed gutting my
rear precat and now know that all the hype about it not being a fun job is
true. My hands are cut to ribbons, I look like I just got shot out of a
cannon, and my arms are sore from breaking loose the 2 front bolts on the
main Cat. But, on the positive side, my pre-cats are now as free flowing as
a hollow tube, 'cause they are!! I'm sure my view of the situation will
change fron suck to sweet tomorrow when I drive it to work. Thanks for all
the advice, I now know very much exactly where the rear precat is. :-) I
ordered a test pipe and am expecting it soon.

T.J.
92' 3000GT VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:18:32 -0700
From: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Leaded race fuel

Lead WILL build up and your O2 sensors WILL need replacement. That said. I
posted on 3si a few months back and asked the same question. There is one
member that used C-16 exclusivley for 2 months and didn't have a problem
untill then. Another member uses it wenever he drag races his car with no
apparant ill effects. I have run about 30 gallons of C-16 through my car and
so far, soo good. And yes, I am waiting for the day I will need to replace
my O2 sensors.

Hoser

> How many out there use leaded race fuel without cats. Any other
> considerations or worries re: use of this? I have generally stuck with
> 103 unleaded, but was considering going to the C-12 4.4g lead per gallon
> from VP mixed with pump. As an aside, anyone interested in F-1 tickets
> e-mail me privately as I don't think I am going to go this year.
>
> Rich
> 92 Stealth TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 00:24:07 -0700
From: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject: Re: Boost levels (was Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins)

The considered safe boost levels for our cars is based on a stock fuel
system and other factors. The car in the article has been modified to be
able to run those extreme pressures. In my Stealth, I have already run 25
psi. My fuel system seems to be able to handle it. However, I am now
experiencing spark blow-out so iqgition has to be dealth with....

Hoser

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Pedenko <apedenko@mediaone.net>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:04 PM
Subject: Boost levels (was Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins)

> Thanks a lot for the info. I think I'm gonna yank the Street Glows and
wait
> until I can afford a true HID conversion...
>
> On a different subject, I was reading this article (link at the bottom)
and
> it was saying that the car was running at 28 psi and the owner wanted to
run
> it at 35. I'm just trying to figure out the gapping hole between those
> levels and what are considered "safe" levels for our cars (< 15 psi).
> Where's it coming from?
>
> http://www.turbomagazine.com/archives/features/1001_features01.jsp
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex
>
> '95 VR4
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
> To: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>; "Geoff Mohler"
> <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>; <DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com>;
<BBradle@Putman.net>
> Cc: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins
>
> > > It is not wise to put in higher wattage bulbs
> > >without giving due consideration to what this is going to do to the
> wiring,
> > >the battery draw, the charging system, and the fuses.
> > >
> > When we ran a Pro rally car, we had six 100W lamps up front. Four were
> > sealed-beam aircraft landing lights, and two were 10-in. Marchal 100W
> > iodine-quartz driving lights. We lit up the night.
> >
> > I worked for an engineering firm at the time, so we knew enough to wire
> > every single lamp directly from a rugged industrial switch panel, and to
> > fuse each lamp separately. Other competitors who tried to tie into the
> > stock Datsun 510 headlight wiring system -- even with separate relays --
> > often found themselves at the side of the road, patching their electrics
> at
> > 3:00 a.m. Other than running down the battery with our stock Datsun 45 A
> > alternator, we had no problem with our electrics. We installed a 70 A
> > alternator and fixed the run-down problem. We also ran two #2 cables
(one
> > positive, one negative) from the rear-mounted battery to avoid rusting
out
> > the frame.
> >
> > Let there be light.
> >
> > Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:16:03 -0700
From: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Only drained 2 qts engine oil during change!

Sam: is this something we could do ourselves by just drilling two small
holes in our own dipsticks? Andy

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:27:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensors and Stillen DP

Yes, EGT should be measured in the manifold, before the turbo.
However, you could use one of the bungs/fittings to attach a 10-12
inch ~1/8"-1/4" ID metal pipe. To the end of this pipe would attach a
silicone rubber hose that goes to a pressure gauge/meter of somesort.
This would allow you to measure pressure in the exhaust after the
turbo, and before the main cat. Why do this? I guess so satisify
curiousity and maybe to see if you need to kill the cat (clogged or
otherwise causing too much restriction in flow).

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- --- Sam Shelat <sshelat@erols.com> wrote:
> The Stillen pipe I have has the bungs pre-welded for you with plugs
> given in case you have a 1st gen car. I planned on using them for
> EGT measurements, but was told its too far to be of any use.
> Sam

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 06:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost levels

As far as I have heard, the Supra owners have no way to
measure/detect knock (other than the standard aftermarket setups). So
how could they know if they have knock or not? Of course, the same
question can be asked of 1994 and later 3S owners.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:04 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Boost levels

<snip>
The Supra engine starts off with being less detonation-prone than our
motor.
<snip>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:56:46 -0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Voltage

Anyone know what the voltage is for the rear O2 sensors on 96+ car ? I am at
work right now without the manual and I am trying to get some simulators
made up for me and need that info in order to have them made.

TIA,

Francis,
'96 RT/TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:00:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Boost levels

1) 35 psi boost.
As far as the turbo itself is considered, it can only multiply intake
pressure by a certain maximum factor. For most turbos sized to fit
1.5L engines (twin setups), the max pressure ratio (PR) is in the
range of 2.8 to 3.1. Assuming 14.5 psi into the turbo and 3.1 PR
factor, the output pressure would be almost 45 psi, or 30.5 psi
"boost". That is of course before any pressure loss in the IC system
and intake manifold/plenum. 28 psi really is the practical max we are
likely to see in our cars with *typical* upgrade turbos. Turbos to
fit larger engines, 3 to 4L or larger, can have max PR of 4 or more.
The key of course at any PR is the flow, which varies from turbo to
turbo. Secondary to flow would be compressor efficiency (how much it
heats the air up after normal adiabatic compression heating).

Turbo info and upgrade guide - including compressor flow maps:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius2/j2-2-turboguide.htm

Adiabatic processes:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-adiabat1.htm

Pressurization primer for our cars:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/2-primer.htm

2) Safe boost levels or 3S cars.
For stock cars, the limitation is fuel and maybe detonation - 360
injectors and 180 lph pump. For upgraded cars ??? Maybe the strength
of the internals and detonation?

Fuel pump info and upgrade guide - including flow test charts:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius2/j2-2-fuelpumpguide.htm
The HKS/Cosmo pump flow test is there now (thanks to Paul Prentis,
Jr. and RC Eng.). Results: stick with the Supra pump.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Pedenko" <apedenko@mediaone.net>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Boost levels (was Re: Team3S: xenon drop-ins)

<snip>
On a different subject, I was reading this article (link at the
bottom) and it was saying that the car was running at 28 psi and the
owner wanted to run it at 35. I'm just trying to figure out the
gapping hole between those levels and what are considered "safe"
levels for our cars (< 15 psi). Where's it coming from?

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:06:16 -0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject: FW: Team3S: O2 sensors and Stillen DP

I just spoke to someone at Dynamic asking about the bungs on the Stillen DP
and they did say that the bungs are there and they do come with plugs in
case you don't have an OBDII car.

Francis,
'96 RT/TT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Sam Shelat [mailto:sshelat@erols.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:23 PM
To: Geoff Mohler; Morice, Francis
Cc: Team3S (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensors and Stillen DP

The Stillen pipe I have has the bungs pre-welded for you with plugs given in
case you have a 1st gen car. I planned on using them for EGT measurements,
but was told its too far to be of any use.

Sam
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: Morice, Francis <francis.morice@retek.com>
Cc: Team3S (E-mail) <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensors and Stillen DP

>Yes, you will have to weld in bungs for everything to remain happy. Make
>sure you place them the same distance from the turbos as before, as how
>much heat they see, directly affects how well they perform..and how well
>your motor performs as well.
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:39:40 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Boost levels

At 10:04 PM 9/19/01 -0500, Jannusch, Matt wrote:
>> On a different subject, I was reading this article (link
>> at the bottom) and it was saying that the car was running
>> at 28 psi and the owner wanted to run it at 35. I'm just
>> trying to figure out the gapping hole between those
>> levels and what are considered "safe" levels for our
>> cars (< 15 psi). Where's it coming from?
>
I got passed by a Supra at Road America. I was running about 120+ on the
front straight and he went by me like a rocket ship. I talked to him later,
and he said he was running 24 psi boost. Folks on the list here said he was
probably pulling 550-600 hp at that boost.

Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Voltage

The ECM uses the O2 sensors in closed loop mode to help set the A/F
to near 14.7. The O2 output voltage in closed loop mode varies
(cycles between high and low values) between 0 and 1; the exact
values depend on age of sensor, temperature of the exhaust, and
oxygen content in the exhaust. The ECM ignores O2 output in open loop
mode - cold startup and WOT. In open loop mode, the output is still
in the 0 to 1 volt range.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
To: "Team3S (E-mail)" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 7:56 AM
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Voltage

Anyone know what the voltage is for the rear O2 sensors on 96+ car ?
I am at work right now without the manual and I am trying to get some
simulators made up for me and need that info in order to have them
made.

TIA,

Francis,
'96 RT/TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:18:31 -0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: O2 Sensor Voltage

Jeff,

Thanks, but I believe what I need to know is what sets off the Check Engine
code for the rear O2 sensors. The front 2 set the A/F, but the rears are
basically sniffing the cats. I think Trevor James has these on his car, so
Trevor if you are out there, could you give me some insight.

Thanks,

Francis
'96 RT/TT

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius [mailto:stealthman92@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:10 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 Sensor Voltage

The ECM uses the O2 sensors in closed loop mode to help set the A/F
to near 14.7. The O2 output voltage in closed loop mode varies
(cycles between high and low values) between 0 and 1; the exact
values depend on age of sensor, temperature of the exhaust, and
oxygen content in the exhaust. The ECM ignores O2 output in open loop
mode - cold startup and WOT. In open loop mode, the output is still
in the 0 to 1 volt range.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
To: "Team3S (E-mail)" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 7:56 AM
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Voltage

Anyone know what the voltage is for the rear O2 sensors on 96+ car ?
I am at work right now without the manual and I am trying to get some
simulators made up for me and need that info in order to have them
made.

TIA,

Francis,
'96 RT/TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:23:10 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Front Cat sucsessfully Gutted!!

You NEED to gut the rear pre-cat. Failure to do so will create a misbalance and it
will hurt the idle quality, the power, and quite possibly the turbos. Climb up under
there, get WELL protected, and fire away. Best of luck.

Ken Stanton
'91 Pearl White R/T TT
Organizer - 3SI Rochester (NY)

Thomas Jeys wrote:

>         Well that went well! The front cat is now Gutted and I did notice a
> sizable increase in power. My spool up time decreased significantly and my
> turbos are a lot louder. I didn't notice much of a difference in sound
> other that the turbo spool.
>         Does it seem odd to anyone else that mitsubishi would put a second cat on
> only the front turbo? Doesn't that misbalance the back pressure on the
> engine? Or is there another cat inside the T junction by the back turbo
> that I don't know about?
>         Ken, thanks for the advice about the routing bits, they worked wonders.
>         Marc, you said the rear one is not worth it, do you mean the work is not
> worth is or that I won't see that same kind oh HP gain? I'm trying to
> decide whether to do the rear one or not...
>         Something I didn't know about is those stupid studs they put on the cat
> instead of bolts. This makes the cat impossible to remove without taking
> the nuts off the bottom of the rear turbo and dropping down the T junction.
>         Everyone, thanks for all the great advice!!
>
> T.J.
> 92' 3000GT VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:42:40 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

94 and newer have no knock sensor?!? So what do you do to tell if you
are over boosting a little bit and getting light detonation?

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jeff Lucius
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 6:41 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost levels

As far as I have heard, the Supra owners have no way to measure/detect
knock (other than the standard aftermarket setups). So how could they
know if they have knock or not? Of course, the same question can be
asked of 1994 and later 3S owners.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:04 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Boost levels

<snip>
The Supra engine starts off with being less detonation-prone than our
motor. <snip>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:43:30 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

> 94 and newer have no knock sensor?!? So what do you do to
> tell if you are over boosting a little bit and getting light
> detonation?

They have a knock sensor, but the typically-used TMO Datalogger doesn't work
on those cars so the knock values in the ECU are inaccessible (at least for
now - until someone figures out how to read it and implements it in a
datalogger).

'96 and later cars can use an OBD-II logger to watch timing advance, but not
direct knock values.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:26:18 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost levels

After you blow it up you do a teardown to see what the hell happened.

        Jim berry
===============================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: BlackLight <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
To: 'Jeff Lucius' <stealthman92@yahoo.com>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

> 94 and newer have no knock sensor?!? So what do you do to tell if you
> are over boosting a little bit and getting light detonation?
>
> Matt Nelson
> 1994 RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:51:40 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse

The O2 sensors could be going, yes. Replacing them is $120 for both, plus any
labor if necessary.

29-32mpg highway, sorry to say, sounds impossible. Even with my boost turned
down to 6psi and in 6th gear, I can't pull any more than 24-25mpg on the
highway. Especially with a test pipe! The mods you've made allow max airflow,
more airflow = more fuel needed at same rpm = lower mpg. Certainly not to
discredit you and your mileage readings, but maybe it was running too lean
before? with no cat(s?), you would not notice a lean condition as easily.

Also remember the transmission/speedo gear issue, that causes the speedo to
read high. If it reads high, so does the odometer, and this would give you
falsely high mpg readings. You didn't change the tranny/tranny gear lately,
did you? Also, I would get those plugs and wires finished. If they are
hurting you, the back O2 sensor is getting a far different reading than the
front, and car will instinctively run at the richest demanded. Then, the extra
fuel not being burned will accumulate on your pipes, more than normal. Oh, and
cats convert extra fuel (HC's) into carbon dioxide and water, which won't leave
black all over you and the guy behind you. I have to wipe my pipes ever month
or so, and I have some pretty good mods too.. Well, I hope this doesn't sound
like rambling, I'm shooting my thoughts out quickly trying to give suggestions,
have to run now so good luck!

Ken Stanton
'91 Pearl White R/T TT

Greg Gonzales wrote:

> Over the past 8 months my gas mileage has gone done from about 18 mpg to
> just under 16. I am not driving the car any harder than usual or taking a
> different route. My highway mileage has gone way down too from about 29-32
> to about 25mpg.
> my car is a 92 RT TT with 47k on it now. My only mods are K&N FIPK, Borla
> Catback, and ATR downpipe with test pipe so I dont have a main cat
>
> Here is what I can think of:
>
> Air filter: just recently cleaned it
>
> Tire pressure: checked it ok
>
> PCV valve: replaced it 2000 miles ago (gas mileage went up for a little bit
> then back down)
>
> Spark plugs: checked them appeared ok but from 1992
>
> Wires: replaced front 3 (rest are from 92 as well)
>
> O2 sensor(s): How many are there and could this be the cause?
>
> Fuel filter: how many are there?
>
> Ever since I purchased to car I noticed black soot at the tail pipes. Am I
> burning rich? how do I fix this?
>
> Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated
> Thanks!
> Greg Gonzales
> 92 RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:57:38 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

But will the factory ECU do anything about the knock if it detects it,
or is it purely up to us to take care of it. I guess I was under the
assumption that the ECU would advance timing automatically to correct it
or pop up the check engine light or something!

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:44 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

> 94 and newer have no knock sensor?!? So what do you do to
> tell if you are over boosting a little bit and getting light
> detonation?

They have a knock sensor, but the typically-used TMO Datalogger doesn't
work on those cars so the knock values in the ECU are inaccessible (at
least for now - until someone figures out how to read it and implements
it in a datalogger).

'96 and later cars can use an OBD-II logger to watch timing advance, but
not direct knock values.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:59:16 -0700
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

He heh, I already had to replace the engine in my 91 ES once, and that's
WITHOUT boost or NOS! I do NOT want to do it on this one!! :)
My goal here is to keep it my daily driver, and although I am almost
always the fastest car in the parking lot, every now and then I get an
itch to play with corvettes.

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:26 AM
To: BlackLight; 'Jeff Lucius'; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost levels

After you blow it up you do a teardown to see what the hell happened.

        Jim berry ===============================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: BlackLight <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
To: 'Jeff Lucius' <stealthman92@yahoo.com>; <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

> 94 and newer have no knock sensor?!? So what do you do to tell if you
> are over boosting a little bit and getting light detonation?
>
> Matt Nelson
> 1994 RT TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost levels

I didn't say "no knock sensor" - or at least didn't mean to. These
cars have knock sensors. I meant that there is no way to get the
knock sensor info out of the ECM - *yet*. :)

Supras and 1994+ 3S cars are just "guessing" as to knock levels.
Until the Supra knock sensor info can be extracted from their ECM,
we/they don't know if they have less detonation prone engines or not.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "BlackLight" <BlackLight@Planetice.net>
To: "'Jeff Lucius'" <stealthman92@yahoo.com>;
<Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 9:42 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

94 and newer have no knock sensor?!? So what do you do to tell if you
are over boosting a little bit and getting light detonation?

Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Net
www.BlackLight.5u.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On
Behalf
Of Jeff Lucius
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 6:41 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost levels

As far as I have heard, the Supra owners have no way to
measure/detect
knock (other than the standard aftermarket setups). So how could they
know if they have knock or not? Of course, the same question can be
asked of 1994 and later 3S owners.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 9:04 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Boost levels

<snip>
The Supra engine starts off with being less detonation-prone than our
motor. <snip>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:01:07 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost levels

> But will the factory ECU do anything about the knock if it
> detects it, or is it purely up to us to take care of it. I
> guess I was under the assumption that the ECU would advance
> timing automatically to correct it or pop up the check engine
> light or something!

Sure the ECU still handles it - to a point. It can retard timing when knock
is detected, but if you keep pushing the car hard beyond where retarding the
timing is sufficient to keep away detonation then there's nothing more the
ECU can do (it might* go into fuel-cut mode, but maybe not if you've done
other things to the car like fuel injectors and a fuel controller).

Advancing timing causes more severe knock (if you are already knocking),
FYI.

It won't flag a check engine light due to knock - you'll see the CE light
when the car dies from the broken pistons though. Or maybe not - my car
never flagged a CE light even though two pistons were broken and the car
barely ran enough to get the 1/4 mile to my house.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:29:00 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade

With regards to rotor warpage:

Warping of the rotors is an phenomenon which is completely independent of
the type of brake pad compound being used. Rotors will warp when they are
allowed to cool unevenly; i.e. one part of the rotor cools faster than
another part. This will often occur when you park a car when the brakes are
very hot, such as when coming off the track. The part of the rotor which is
facing the pad is subject to the intense heat radiating from the pad, while
the rest of the rotor is allowed to cool, as it is exposed to the air. For
this reason, I recommend that after every track session, or even when
driving aggressive on the street, that you take a cool down lap (on the
street, just drive the car around for a few minutes to cool everything off)
or drive around the paddock area a couple times. If you can't put your hand
on the hub area of the wheel and not burn yourself, it is too hot, and you
should keep driving. Also, never use your emergency/parking brake to hold
the car when you come off the track, as this can cause the rear pads to bond
to the rear rotors, or at the very least, promote rear rotor warping.

Also, Carbotech Engineering is now offerring out Panther Plus compound for
Porsche 993 TT calipers; this is the CT594 pad. Please call if you would
like to order a set of these pads. Team3S members receive a 10% discount
from list.

Regards,

Andie Lin

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:14:28 -0500
::From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
::Subject: RE: Team3S: Brembo 3S Specific brake upgrade
::
::My son Mike has the Brembo F40 calipers through Stillen. We had some
::initial problems with the installation that were fixed by Stillen. Since
::then, the brakes perform very well.
::
::Challenges we have encountered:
::
::1) slight rotor warpage (like 0.002") using the supplied PAGID pads that
::generated noticeable squeaking on the street. This doesn't
::happen with the
::Hawk HP+ (I think) pads, but these have noticebly worse performance on the
::track. Next pads we try will be Carbotech Panther Plus.
::
::2) problems replacing the rotors - from Stillen they are very expensive.
::Porterfield will custom make them, but we haven't tried this yet. This is
::probably the route we we take.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:15:28 -0500
From: "cody" <overclck@starband.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse

I have disputed the following statement before, and would like a few
more opinions on it. Gas mileage should not be affected by most
performance items such as high flow cats, downpipes, free-flow exhaust,
air filters, etc. etc. This is my theory at least, because no matter
what mods you do, the amount of air, and thus fuel at whatever RPM is
limited more by your own foot (which is connected to the throttle body),
rather than what mods you have. Sure, if one mod causes you to run rich
/ lean, I can see the MPG difference, or if you change your driving
style because you now have more power at the same throttle position now,
but overall, shouldn't most mods keep approximately the same MPG???

>>The mods you've made allow max airflow,
>>more airflow = more fuel needed at same rpm = lower mpg.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:09:47 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse

Most mods have little to do with performance at low performance levels so
normal driving [ non-WOT stuff ] should result in about the same fuel usage.
I would assume that it's pretty easy to screw up the settings on a fuel
controller though ---- it seem like it would be easy to set an ARCII to run
rich at low power settings and mess up fuel consumption.

        Jim Berry
================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: cody <overclck@starband.net>

> I have disputed the following statement before, and would like a few
> more opinions on it. Gas mileage should not be affected by most
> performance items such as high flow cats, downpipes, free-flow exhaust,
> air filters, etc. etc. This is my theory at least, because no matter
> what mods you do, the amount of air, and thus fuel at whatever RPM is
> limited more by your own foot ---

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #618
***************************************