Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Thursday, August 30
2001 Volume 01 : Number
594
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:06:50 -0400
From: Curtis McConnel <
CMcConnel@Pulte.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: Modifications
I currently have Intake, exhaust, downpipe no
cats, underdrive pulley, am I
safe to run 17psi? If not what can I run on
pump gas? Is water injection
cheaper?
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com
[mailto:Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:57
PM
To: Curtis McConnel
Subject: RE: Modifications
My mods are
pretty much the same as yours, except for the alcohol kit. I
bought the EVC
IV a few years ago, so the price has gone up now, and I
bought used Denso
550cc injectors. But the rest of the stuff I bought
recently from Dynamic
Racing, and here's what they cost separately (if you
haven't already gotten a
quote from them):
357 Turbos - $2449 + $300 core
Denso Fuel Pump -
$249
RPS Stage III clutch - $499
ARC2 Fuel Controller - $1029
EVCIV
Boost Controller - now $599, then $499
RC Fuel Injectors - now $540, my used
Denso's were $350
My Total - $5,075
Total New (from Dynamic Racing) -
$5365
You should also get a boost gauge ($80 to $150) and a gauge pod
($30). You
don't want to overboost.
Matt at Dynamic Racing may also
give you a break if you order eveything at
once, or maybe he'll throw in a
little something extra. So their prices are
in the ballpark, and will still
leave you enough to buy a $499 alcohol
injection kit. If you haven't already
installed an intake, downpipe, and
exhaust, you should do that too, in order
to get all the benefits from
those turbos. That'll add another $1,200 to your
tab.
I've run mine at 17psi with no problem, other than blowing off
an
intercooler hose, but haven't taken it higher yet. It held 17 all the
way
to redline and I'm told it will hold up to 20.
Good
luck.
Jeff W.
'92 VR4
>I am looking into purchasing: Gt Pro
357 mag. turbos, ARC II Fuel
>controller, RC 550cc injectors, Denso Fuel
Pump, HKS EVC IV, Alcohol
>injection and RPS Stage III Clutch. My question
is I've been getting
package
>price quotes from $5200-$6000. Does any
one know of other dealer maybe
>offering better pricing? If I can afford
everything at once it would
>probably be the Alcohol I'd leave out. Can I
run 18psi without it? Also is
>there anyone in Colorado that maybe able to
help with installation? Sorry
>about the long post just trying to get some
good advise.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:03:26
-0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Clutch survey
My mitsu guy quoted me $350 for a stock VR-4 clutch
not $900. I went with
the RPS II cause other guys in the Jersey/NY
group said the Centerforce
could not take repeated high rpm launches and
slipped badly once heated.
One member also had a 30k life out of his.
In our circle, Centerforce is
the one to avoid
Sam
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Daniel Jett <
djett@corp.ultratech.com>
To:
phnxgld@erols.com <
phnxgld@erols.com>;
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch
survey
>Jason,
>
>Ever had one?
>
>I have
never had a problem with the Centerforce, used them in my DSM days
as well.
Furthermore, you CAN buy a disk without the pressure plate, as I
have done
this in the past. Please post facts when you make such a
statement. Nothing
personal! ; )
>
>What would the benefit be by having a puck style
disk over a full face
disk? Many clutches are full face, including the stock
clutch, which by most
accounts is more than ample for light tuning and
modifications.
>
>Longevity wise, I have had no problem with the
service life of Centerforce
clutches either. All of my clutches have lasted
in excess of 40k miles, and
that's with some pretty hard launches along the
way.
>
>As far as cost is concerned, I get two Centerforces for the
price of one
stock clutch, when you take into account that I can use my
pressure plate
twice. Last time I checked, the cost from Capitol Mitsubishi,
(local
dealership, wouldn't endorse them for a million bucks!) for a stock
clutch
replacement was in excess of $900. I can definitely get a better deal
with
the Centerforce clutch than even stock!
>
>I am not trying
to sell these clutches, only offering my experiences for
the benefit of the
list.
>
>Regards,
>
>Dan J
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:14:20
-0400
From: Marc Jonathan Jacobs <
Marc.Jacobs@usa.alcatel.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch survey
I had a CF put on my VR-4 when I blew the
tranny. It cost be about $700
(parts). It lasted 15K miles and
1.5years before it started slipping at
+5psi boost. I replaced it with
a stock clutch for $200 (parts only)
through Rockville Mitsubishi, and did
the labor myself. What a pain! I
was very happy with the
performance of the CF, and I could beat the hell
out of it.
Unfortunately, it didn't last (my own fault).
You can buy a new clutch
disc from Daiken/Exedy. Centerforce buys these
from Exedy, and packages
them with the CF pressure plate.
I think a full disc is more
"streetable" and smooth. However, repeated
launches will get the
PP/Flywheel too hot, and then it doesn't work
well. They also Dust and
smell more.
I wish CF had a "puck" design as well. I bet you could
use a stock
disc, or any other puck design if you had the right shims,
patience, and
enough time to test it all. However, it is much harder to
"swap out" a
clutch on our cars compared to a RWD Camaro or mustang.
There is no
"science" to pressure plate design - just how hard the clamping
force
is, and how heavy on the leg it is. The science is in the clutch
disk.
Can you order an RPS clutch, but not the pressure plate?
Here
is the email I got from
Daiken/Exedy:
"info" <
info@exedy.co.jp>
Parts No. for
Mitsubishi GTO 3L Turbo. (Model Z15A, Z16A, ENGINE:6G72T)
Clutch Disc.
: MBD046U (OEM Genuine No. MD741324)
Clutch Cover
: MBC562 (OEM Genuine No. MD742801)
Daikin Clutch
Corporation
TEL: 734-397-3333
Toll Free : 800-346-6091
The Clutch
Disc is exactly what Centerforce uses, and it is stamped into
the metal
part.
- --
Marc J. Jacobs '94 Blue VR-4
xDSL Hardware
Development
Alcatel, USA (919)
850-6386
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:15:08
-0400
From: "Jason Barnhart" <
phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Clutch survey
Ok, I'm not sure what part of "in my
opinion" people are having such a
problem wit. I was simply relaying my
opinion and those of a wide majority
of DSM owners. Take it or leave
it, after all, what could we possibly have
to learn from DSMs, right? I
too run mid to high 12s and 109 traps, but I
wouldn't consider that extensive
mods. However, if he's got "extensive"
mods and can only run mid to
high 12s, even at that altitude perhaps that's
where the problem, or lack
thereof is. What kind of 60's is he running?
Mike from Altered ran a
Centerforce for a couple years, he ran mid 11s. He
also baby's his
clutch (if you ask me) turning 1.8 60' times on the way to a
mid 11 is NOT a
hard launch. I figured that if the Centerforce could hold
his power
then it would most certainly hold mine.
It started out great, the
clutch would grip fine. I could bog, build
boost, then smoke my 245
Pzeros. The need for new tires arose, quite
possibly because it was too
much fun rolling into the throttle in 1st and
feeling the ass-end stepping
out as all 4 Pzeros broke loose, so I decided
on something grippier. I
chose 275/40 Firehawk SZ50 EPs. I don't play
games, I launch hard, and
it only took a few times before the clutch just
slipped once. Sure, it
didn't slip every launch. It seemed to have it's
days, some good, some
bad, just like the stock clutch. I netted my best ETs
and 60's ever
with this clutch. 12.67 with a 1.74 60'. I had an even
better
1.72 60' smoking all 4 so bad the ass-end started stepping out, it
hooked
just before the 1-2 shift. These times were after the clutch
started
slipping initially but it quickly went downhill to the point that
it'd slip
at 15psi in 3rd gear. I got 10k miles and less than a year
out of it. This
is supposed to be 'performance' clutch.
My stock clutch (the one I put in at 54k miles as the dealer replaced
the
tranny) lasted me until 105k+ miles and it was more drivable than
my
Centerforce was. It wouldn't slip until 4th gear and that was
only
sometimes. I drove my stock clutch the same way and it'd only hold
about
25% of hard launches. On one particular 2 day even at MIR the
stock clutch
slipped every launch on the first day and I couldn't turn a 12s
pass. I
unbolted my stock downpipe for the second day (near identical
temps and
humidity) and spun tires on every launch running a best of 12.87 at
107.87.
My stock clutch initially slipped about 2 years before I replaced it
fearing
that I'd be left stranded one day. My new, supposedly better,
Centerforce
was completely toasted after a few months and I'm not so sure it
ever held
any better than the stock on. Sure, I got better ETs and
60's, but with
MORE mods.
I think the Centerforce has to
inherent flaws. A weak pressure plate, for
girly-men, and a full face
disk. "I want my car to be faster, but easier to
drive" - buy a
Mercedes. A lot of people complain about the 2600lb ACT
pressure plate
in the DSMs, these people need to get into the gym or be
happy being
slow. I've driven several and while requiring more pedal effort
than my
VR4 I wasn't crying about it, particularly when it launches and
grabs so hard
you need a neck brace afterwards.
Actually Jeff, this thought path
is incorrect. Street disks are usually
full faced while race disks are
usually 6 or even 3 puck. Street disks
usually engage smoother as all
the clamping force is divided across a larger
surface area, race disks are
usually more like an 'on/off' switch and hold
more power, particularly when
compared to their street disk cousins.
Wouldn't more surface area equal more
friction (not more force) and actually
less force per square inch? I
actually thought the same thing some time
ago, but obviously this is
incorrect. I believe the optional RPS 2900lb
pressure plate is what our
factory pressure plate has been measured at, and
I thought you could get a 6
puck through them.
Daniel - As far as the friction disk statement
goes I might be wrong, God
knows it's happened before, but this was stated to
me by the retailer,
several other people and is supported by a lack of a part
# on Centerforce's
site. I was under the impression, and have not seen
otherwise yet, that you
cannot get a new pressure plate from Centerforce,
perhaps this is a recent
change or maybe it's just the Dual Friction
clutches? $900 for a new clutch
assembly, does this include
labor? I paid around $300 for mine 4 years ago
and though I'm not sure
the pressure plate was included why would you
replace it if it hasn't failed,
you've already got one. Sure some DSM guys,
while few, swear by
Centerforce, ACT owns the DSM clutch market and for
good
reason.
Damon - The friction range being smaller probably
has a lot to do with the
fact that it's a *new* clutch and the pedal
engagement point is simply a
matter of adjustment but if it's grabbing lower
with *no* adjustment then
that would be due to having more friction material
because it's a *new*
clutch. As you *just* had the clutch put in I
think an absolute opinion is
probably premature.
By the way,
I'm not endorsing the RPS, but from what I've seen in the
*working* RPS
clutches, the Centerforce wouldn't even compare. Jack T.
launches
harder, on drag radials even, runs faster, and his has lasted
longer than my
Centerforce.
It's funny that I posted a message about clutches a
while ago while
bashing *my own* Centerforce and the fact that RPS clutches
are questionable
received 2, maybe 3 responses that were basically
invalid. One had just
gotten his new clutch, the current ACT offering
which is mediocre (spoke
directly to ACT about that one) and I think the
other was a pretty mild car
(although mine is mild, I've accepted the fact
that I drive it harder and
need something more serious). To quote my
own words "I'm tired of playing
games and need something serious", clutch
options for our cars are just
silly. On one hand you got clutches that
feel great and handle little
power, on the other you got $3000 entire
assemblies that are all but
undriveable. ACT is developing a new clutch
for our car
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:09:49
-0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Clutch survey
From my conversation with guys at RPS, the
combination of their higher
pressure plate, and high coefficient materials
require pucks instead of full
face for slipping for street
use.
Sam
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch
survey
>The Centerforce DF clutch has served me well with my mild
level of
>mods and is used by a fellow VR4 owner with extensive mods for
three
>years of operation including many hard launches at the local
strip
>(times in mid to upper 12s here at 5800' ASL). I'm not selling
this
>clutch (in fact I'll use something else when I need to replace
it)
>just saying that calling it a "joke" is not fair at
all.
>
>As far as the matter of 6-pucks being better than full-face
consider
>this. The amount of force "transferred" between surfaces depends
on
>the surface area times the coefficient of friction - just like
brake
>pads and rotors. More surface, then more force. Higher coef.
of
>friction, then more force. Reduce the surface area - pucks
vs.
>full-face - then the coef. of friction and/or pressure plate
force
>must increase to offset this (any coincidence the RPS PP has
higher
>force than the stock?). Not that this is bad or good, just
a
>different way of achieving the same goal. I would guess that
RPS
>wanted to use a certain material for whatever reason
(perhaps
>superior friction qualities over a broad temperature range) and
its
>high coef. of friction required the surface area to be reduced
to
>make the clutch "grab" at a certain level.
>
>Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:28:08
-0400
From: "WALTER D. BEST" <
WDBO39@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
spark plug cover plates (GTO)
You got one from me, since the rear of my
car has GTO on it, and not the
re-arranged letters either the real red center
section with GTO on it from
Japan.
Dave Best
- ----- Original
Message ----
From: "AmkreadGTO" <
amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
To: "Robert
Koch" <
eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Cc:
"Team3S" <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: spark plug cover
plates (GTO)
> Thanks, Robert.
>
> Team3S,
>
>
Would anyone else be interested in a "GTO" cover
> instead of the
"Stealth", "3000GT", "VR4"?? Please
> email Robert about it.. I want
one! =)
>
> Hope to get 4 more interested..
>
>
/George
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:47:20
-0700
From: Robert Koch <
eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject:
Team3S: spark plug cover plate update
To all who are wanting GTO
plates.
I will make "GTO" and "twin turbo" added to the list. Same price but
I need
at least a week to get them done. Does anyone have a pic of GTO for a
font
style? The next big project is oil caps.....o-ring groove with o-ring
and
solid aluminum for material.(no small screw holding a bracket) I figure
30.00 bucks a pop....any input? We will work out the engraving when the
prototype is done.......we really don't want 3000gt or stealth on
everything do we? I know what I drive everyday. Maybe an atomic atom symbol
or fallout symbol......maybe it could say "start driveway stain here!"
(just kidding)
Just a thinker.....what about titanium
connecting rods? That's really
pushing it though. Damn I love this
machine.......
The sky is the limit.........or your budget.
Bob
k.
eK2mfg.com --- wait till the end of the week to check me
out.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:54:28
-0700
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
I was not very pleased with my centerforce on
my ES at all. It started
out very nice but lost it's aggressiveness very
quickly in my opinion. I
would defiantly not buy another.
Matt
Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem
OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Netwww.BlackLight.5u.com-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jason Barnhart
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 10:28 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch survey
In my opinion, the Centerforce Dual Friction
clutch is a joke for our
cars. It's way too expensive, it has a full face
disk with no option for
a 6 puck, and you can't simply buy a new friction
disk when yours starts
slipping a few thousand miles down the road. Be
prepared to buy a whole
new clutch assembly. I think a satisfaction
survey on Centerforce
clutches would be way worse, most DSM guys hate them
too.
Jason
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Jett"
<
djett@corp.ultratech.com>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>;
<
wce@telus.net>
Sent: Wednesday,
August 29, 2001 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch survey
>
Darc,
>
> That's still 16.6% of customers who are unsatisfied with
the product.
Almost 1 in 5. Can you imagine if Intel or IBM, or even
McDonalds (okay,
that one might not be too unbelievable!) had that type of
quality
feedback?
>
> I thought of getting an RPS stage 3, but
with all the mess flying
> around a
few months back, I decided the
odds were just not in my favor for
getting a good clutch from
RPS.
>
> I have had a number of Centerforce clutches, and have had
good luck
> with
all, or at least just a quality product that is
capable of handling my
basic mods.
>
> Regards,
>
>
Dan Jett
> 94 Stealth RT/TT
> San Jose, Ca
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:54:06
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> The current ACT offering which is mediocre
(spoke
> directly to ACT about that one) and I think the
> other was
a pretty mild car (although mine is mild,
> I've accepted the fact that I
drive it harder and
> need something more serious). To quote my own
words
> "I'm tired of playing games and need something serious",
>
clutch options for our cars are just silly. On one
> hand you got
clutches that feel great and handle little
> power, on the other you got
$3000 entire assemblies that
> are all but undriveable. ACT is
developing a new clutch
> for our car
Why do you think the current
ACT setup is "mediocre"? I've got one and I
can launch as hard or soft
as I want to, at any RPM. I haven't been to the
dragstrip yet to see
what the 60' times are, but it does hook up hard. A
few others I know
who have ACT clutches like them quite a bit. The ACT 2600
in my
previous '93 Eclipse GSX is still going strong after many launches and
about
30,000 miles. It broke the weak old-style DSM pivot fork about a
month
ago, and the friction disc looked about as thick as it did brand-new.
Can't
complain there!
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
15G's, 550's,
intercoolers, blah blah blah...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:35:54
-0400
From: "Jason Barnhart" <
phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Clutch survey
Besides conferring with Jim from ACT directly and
him agreeing that the
current offering would not meet my needs, their own
site indicates that
their 3000gt clutch has a 19% increase in holding power,
that's not much.
The 2600 for DSMs is a 58% increase. How many miles
have you put on your
ACT? You haven't even been to a dragstrip yet
Matt. I love the ACT options
for DSMs, they're tried and true, but no
one has gone fast with an ACT for
our cars and ACT themselves doubt that the
3000gt offering would suit me.
You were one of the 2-3 people who responded
some time ago when I asked
about clutch options and I appreciate that, but I
find it hard to even
consider your opinion when you've hardly used
yours.
Jim did state that they were 'beta testing' a clutch with a
company that's
supposed to have a 1000+ horsepower car (or the ability to
blow a lot of
smoke...) but they're having problems because the fingers on
our pressure
plates are very long so it's difficult to get lots of clamping
force.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To:
"'Jason Barnhart'" <
phnxgld@erols.com>; <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Clutch
survey
> > The current ACT offering which is mediocre
(spoke
> > directly to ACT about that one) and I think the
> >
other was a pretty mild car (although mine is mild,
> > I've accepted
the fact that I drive it harder and
> > need something more
serious). To quote my own words
> > "I'm tired of playing games
and need something serious",
> > clutch options for our cars are just
silly. On one
> > hand you got clutches that feel great and
handle little
> > power, on the other you got $3000 entire assemblies
that
> > are all but undriveable. ACT is developing a new
clutch
> > for our car
>
> Why do you think the current ACT
setup is "mediocre"? I've got one and I
> can launch as hard or soft
as I want to, at any RPM. I haven't been to
the
> dragstrip yet
to see what the 60' times are, but it does hook up hard. A
> few
others I know who have ACT clutches like them quite a bit. The
ACT
2600
> in my previous '93 Eclipse GSX is still going strong after
many launches
and
> about 30,000 miles. It broke the weak
old-style DSM pivot fork about a
> month ago, and the friction disc looked
about as thick as it did
brand-new.
> Can't complain
there!
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
> 15G's, 550's,
intercoolers, blah blah blah...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:59:53
-0700
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
Do we have to worry about breaking our pivot
fork in the 6 spd Getrag??
And also, my centerforce would defiantly slip
when hot, and that was
only on my old 1991 ES!! Unless the materials are
different between the
NA dual friction clutch and the TT AWD CF DF clutch, I
would recommend
those that tend to like driving hard for prolonged periods of
time to
stay away from them.
Matt Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer
Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Netwww.BlackLight.5u.com-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jannusch, Matt
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:54 PM
To: 'Jason Barnhart';
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> The current ACT offering which is mediocre
(spoke
> directly to ACT about that one) and I think the
> other was
a pretty mild car (although mine is mild,
> I've accepted the fact that I
drive it harder and
> need something more serious). To quote my own
words
> "I'm tired of playing games and need something serious", clutch
> options for our cars are just silly. On one hand you got clutches
> that feel great and handle little power, on the other you got $3000
> entire assemblies that are all but undriveable. ACT is developing
a
> new clutch for our car
Why do you think the current ACT setup
is "mediocre"? I've got one and
I can launch as hard or soft as I want
to, at any RPM. I haven't been
to the dragstrip yet to see what the 60'
times are, but it does hook up
hard. A few others I know who have ACT
clutches like them quite a bit.
The ACT 2600 in my previous '93 Eclipse GSX
is still going strong after
many launches and about 30,000 miles. It
broke the weak old-style DSM
pivot fork about a month ago, and the friction
disc looked about as
thick as it did brand-new. Can't complain
there!
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
15G's, 550's, intercoolers,
blah blah blah...
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:17:40
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> How many miles have you put on your
ACT? You haven't even
> been to a dragstrip yet Matt.
About
4,000 miles on the ACT at this point. You don't need to go to
a
dragstrip to rev it up and drop the clutch and see if it holds or
slips.
I've beat on it and it doesn't slip. What more opinion can I
give? Maybe I
got a particularly strong ACT, I dunno.
> I
love the ACT options for DSMs, they're tried and true,
> but no one has
gone fast with an ACT for our cars and ACT
> themselves doubt that the
3000gt offering would suit me.
Nobody has gone truly fast with these cars
period other than 2 or 3 people,
regardless of the clutch choice - I don't
think its necessarily the clutches
that are lacking at this
point.
> Jim did state that they were 'beta testing' a clutch
with
> a company that's supposed to have a 1000+ horsepower car
>
(or the ability to blow a lot of smoke...)
1000+ HP 3/S car? If so,
there aren't any dragstrip numbers that show that
power level yet.
Strange we haven't heard anything about it. Like you said
though, maybe
they are really good at blowing smoke.
I'll try to get you a "real"
opinion on the ACT I have if I can get my car
reassembled before the last
racing day on October 14th. The machine shop
still has my block and
heads and is balancing the rotating assembly and
working their magic on the
rest. I don't know if they'll have their portion
done in time for me to
get it all back together and properly break in the
motor before October
14th.
I'll try...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:19:10
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> Do we have to worry about breaking our
pivot fork in the 6
> spd Getrag??
If you go to a clutch with a
stronger pressure plate then the chances of
breaking it will be higher.
I haven't heard of one breaking and it isn't
super-common on the DSM
cars. With anything, the
stronger/faster/more-powerful you go the
higher the chance of breaking
something.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:06:07
-0700
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
This I understand, I just was wondering if it
was an associated problem
with our cars, which I haven't heard yet, just
double checking since it
was brought up.
Matt Nelson
1994 RT
TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem OR
Work Phone
503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Netwww.BlackLight.5u.com-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jannusch, Matt
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 7:19 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> Do we have to worry about breaking our
pivot fork in the 6 spd
> Getrag??
If you go to a clutch with a
stronger pressure plate then the chances of
breaking it will be higher.
I haven't heard of one breaking and it
isn't super-common on the DSM
cars. With anything, the
stronger/faster/more-powerful you go the
higher the chance of breaking
something.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:10:44
-0500
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <
tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Clutch survey
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch
survey
>The Centerforce DF clutch has served me well with my mild
level of
>mods and is used by a fellow VR4 owner with extensive mods for
three
>years of operation including many hard launches at the local
strip
>(times in mid to upper 12s here at 5800' ASL). I'm not selling
this
>clutch (in fact I'll use something else when I need to replace
it)
>just saying that calling it a "joke" is not fair at all.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW
- I've had good luck with the Centerforce too. Installed in 1994
and
still going strong. Not a whole lot of miles - about 20K but lots
of
mods/368s and a fair
number of hard launches but no (maybe 1 or 2?)
high rpm dumps.
Still have original small spline tranny/transfer case
too. Shifts like
butter.
Just lucky?
No - just not so
abusive as some ........................
I drove a modded 15g StealthTT
with the top of the line
ACT multi puck strip clutch for several months
and absolutely
hated it on the street. (my domain)
There was
absolutely no/none/nada "normal" slip at all - it was either
engaged or not
and the more delicate/easy I was with it - the worse
it jerked/clunked into
gear. The owner of this car has gotten to
where he doesn't even stop at
stop signs (rolling stops) so he
doesn't have to go through that so
often.
May be great for strip use only but was a piece of $&@ for
normal
use. Very - very hard on the tranny/drivetrain during
normal
engagement from a stop.
I'll never buy one of those or anything
like it.
- - tds
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:01:43
-0700
From: "BlackLight" <
BlackLight@Planetice.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
So the ACT is out for me, what about the RPS
stage II and III clutches,
I can not have a clutch that is an on off switch,
but it defiantly
should maintain it's hold better when hot and aggressiveness
with miles
better than the centerforce. Should I stick to a stage I, II, or
III? I
am planning on also replacing the stock flywheel with an
aluminum
flywheel so will this play a part in my clutch choice? I think that
the
RPS stage II with the aluminum flywheel will have to be my choice as
my
car is my daily driver. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Matt
Nelson
1994 RT TT
Computer Sales Consultant
Gateway Computers, Salem
OR
Work Phone 503-587-7113
BlackLight@Planetice.Netwww.BlackLight.5u.com-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Todd D.Shelton
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 8:11 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch survey
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch
survey
>The Centerforce DF clutch has served me well with my mild
level of mods
>and is used by a fellow VR4 owner with extensive mods
for three years
>of operation including many hard launches at the local
strip (times in
>mid to upper 12s here at 5800' ASL). I'm not selling
this clutch (in
>fact I'll use something else when I need to replace it)
just saying
>that calling it a "joke" is not fair at all.
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW
- I've had good luck with the Centerforce too. Installed in 1994
and
still going strong. Not a whole lot of miles - about 20K but lots
of
mods/368s and a fair number of hard launches but no (maybe 1 or 2?)
high rpm
dumps. Still have original small spline tranny/transfer case
too.
Shifts like butter.
Just lucky?
No - just not so abusive as some
........................
I drove a modded 15g StealthTT with the top of
the line
ACT multi puck strip clutch for several months and absolutely
hated it
on the street. (my domain)
There was absolutely no/none/nada
"normal" slip at all - it was either
engaged or not and the more
delicate/easy I was with it - the worse it
jerked/clunked into gear.
The owner of this car has gotten to where he
doesn't even stop at stop signs
(rolling stops) so he doesn't have to go
through that so often.
May be
great for strip use only but was a piece of $&@ for normal use.
Very -
very hard on the tranny/drivetrain during normal engagement from
a
stop.
I'll never buy one of those or anything like it.
- -
tds
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:41:31
+1200
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch survey
Hi
I missed the survey too. I had RPS
turbo clutch, lasted only one year, cost
me a small fortune with our exchange
rate. Absolute crap.I now have an OS
Giken. Heaps
better.
Steve
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:59:03
-0700
From: "Steven M." <
nws3@winisp.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Pulling Left at High Speeds
That all sounds like an alignment problem...
I would get a competent
shop to check it out.
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Darren Schilberg
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:06 AM
To: 'Team3S (E-mail)'
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Pulling Left at High Speeds
Most AutoX racers are not AWD people
and only need a 2-wheel alignment
and
not the "special" 4-wheel thrust
alignment that we need. I was at Sears
for
mine and they said,
"Hmmm. I don't see it here. Oh wait. Here it is.
It
is
listed as a 'difficult alignment procedure' and is $90 instead of the
normal
price." My performance shop does it also (to ANY
angle
specified)
but was booked for two weeks.
I also have some
wandering of my car and on some roads (those in Iowa
were
nice) the car is
perfectly straight for a half mile. A few miles later
it
will steer
from the left lane to the right lane in under an 1/8 or 1/4
mile
(maybe
that was in Missouri though). Point is ... the road has
something
to
do with the feeling. Steering wheel wobble when the car pulls
but
perfectly
normal when it goes straight.
Alignment is done so
that is not the problem. Tires are wearing on mine
so
it might be a
belt starting to show and pull or push to one side. Also,
under braking
it wobbles more than a warped rotor does since it pulls to
the
side when
braking.
- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
Pittsburgh, PA but put 30k miles on
the car with the same tires from
Wisconsin to Iowa to Ocean City to Cape
Cod.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven M.
Sent: Tuesday,
August 28, 2001 10:36 PM
Check with local autocrossers, ask them who they
use for alignment, when
you hear about 5 people swear by the same shop, take
it to them. They
can probably diagnose your problem even if it's not
alignment related.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:37:33
-0700
From: "Ken Middaugh" <
kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Help Needed (Fuel and Ignition)
I had very similar
problems. My engine would not start, or it would start
and run for 30
seconds after sitting in the hot sun. It was the crankshaft
position
sensor (over $300 for this part!). Folks have reported these
symptoms
before as it is not an uncommon problem.
When my engine would die, it was
an instantaneous loss of power, easily
identifiable as an electrical
problem. If your fuel pump was bad, your
engine would probably sputter
& hiccup before it died.
Good luck,
Ken
> My
Stealth TT has had Starting problems for several weeks. It would not
>
start easily when sitting in the sun for a few hours. And when it did
>
start, it would cut off several times before it would run normally.
>
Yesterday, it would not start at all. On checking it out, it was found
>
that the fuel pump was not working, and that there was no ignition. Has
>
anyone had a similar problem, and/or can someone help me with this.
>
thanks,
> Will
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:25:04
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch survey
Jason,
There are two different
forces at work. The force perpendicular to
the surface, which you mistakenly
call "clamping force", and the
"friction" force parallel to the surface, the
one that keeps the
clutch from slipping. Your are correct that force per
square inch
will increase if we distribute the force over a smaller area.
For
example, spiked heels versus snow shoes, or 12"-wide tires
versus
6"-wide tires. However, that force, the one perpendicular to
the
surface, does NOT keep the clutch from slipping. What keeps the
clutch
from slipping is "friction force". That force is directly
proportional to the
surface area, perpendicular force (total, not
lb/in2), and coefficient of
friction. This friction force is at work
in our brake/rotor setup and
tire-contact-patch/road-surface
interface. Making the surface area smaller
does NOT help the brakes
or tire traction.
Just like brake pad
material, the coefficient of friction of clutch
facing material changes with
temperature - brakes "slip" when hot,
clutches slip when hot, regardless of
pedal pressure or pressure
plate "clamping force", respectively. Maybe
someone who really cares
about this subject will give RPS, ACT, or
Centerforce a call and
discuss this topic with them and report back to this
list.
From the 1991 and 1992-1996 Mitsu 3000GT service
manuals:
Pressure plate force:
FWD 1386 lbs;
AWD 2024 lbs (5-spd),
2072 lb (6-spd)
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Jason Barnhart" <
phnxgld@erols.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutch
survey
<snip>
Actually Jeff, this thought path is
incorrect. Street disks are
usually full faced while race disks are
usually 6 or even 3 puck.
Street disks usually engage smoother as all the
clamping force is
divided across a larger surface area, race disks are
usually more
like an 'on/off' switch and hold more power, particularly
when
compared to their street disk cousins. Wouldn't more surface
area
equal more friction (not more force) and actually less force
per
square inch? I actually thought the same thing some time ago,
but
obviously this is incorrect. I believe the optional RPS
2900lb
pressure plate is what our factory pressure plate has been
measured
at, and I thought you could get a 6 puck through
them.
<snip>
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:18:56
-0600
From: Chip Greenberg <
c.greenberg@pdn-inc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: potential transfer case problem
Hi Folks
Had an
interesting problem turn up last week when I changed my rear tires.
I
realized that my "good" tires that still had tread on them (Kumos)
where
different sizes, one was a 245/45/17. the other was a 225/45/17.
I had
purchased both sets (new and old) at Discount tires. The mis-matched
ones
were purchased from a different store.
So here's the
problem. While discount gave me a good deal, 100% credit for
the wrong
size tire,etc, I was running two different size tires for 20k
miles!
While the car seems fine, do you think this could have detrimental
long term
effects on my transfer case?
Chip
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:18:09
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> So the ACT is out for me, what about the
RPS stage II and
> III clutches, I can not have a clutch that is an on
off
> switch, but it defiantly should maintain it's hold better
>
when hot and aggressiveness with miles better than the
>
centerforce.
If you are counting out the ACT because of Todd's
description of the puck
disc's "grabbiness", be aware that the full-face
street disc is not at all
like that. Well, it is for about the first
300 miles but after that its
engagement is a lot like stock - but with higher
holding power. The puck
disc isn't recommended by ACT for street use
because of the characteristics
that Todd described.
All these clutches
are probably good choices as long as everything comes
together right. I
would have considered the RPS clutches if they hadn't had
their batch of bad
3/S clutches. I personally didn't have a good experience
with the
Centerforce on my Eclipse, but other people seem to like it.
This list
probably isn't a big enough group of people to say one way or
another with
any accuracy which clutch is "the best". A lot of people use
the stock
clutch since it does work pretty well if you aren't abusive on it.
Not the
best for drag racing, but it holds up pretty well for just about
anything
else on the typical upgrade level for these cars.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:34:49
-0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <
Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Clutch survey
If you aren't breaking parts you aren't making
enough power.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
[mailto:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 8:19
PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
> Do we have to worry about breaking our
pivot fork in the 6
> spd Getrag??
If you go to a clutch with a
stronger pressure plate then the chances of
breaking it will be higher.
I haven't heard of one breaking and it isn't
super-common on the DSM
cars. With anything, the
stronger/faster/more-powerful you go the
higher the chance of breaking
something.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:48:35
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch survey
At 10:34 AM 8/30/01 -0600, Floyd, Jim
wrote:
>
> If you aren't breaking parts you aren't making enough
power.
>
Back in my Pro Rally days, we used to say: "If you don't have
dents in the
rear quarter panels from hitting trees, you aren't going fast
enough."
Parnelli Jones said, "If you aren't out of control, you aren't
going fast
enough."
And my instructors say, "A squealing tire is a
happy tire."
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:28:40
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: potential transfer case problem
Chip -- Ask the stores for the
outside rolling diameter as this is the
important number for us AWD
guys. What kind of car do you have? Were the
different tires on
the rear axle or on one side of the car? The difference
in rolling
diameter will have an affect on the speedometer, ABS, center
differential,
etc. but these have the same sidewall and size so we will see.
-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chip
Greenberg
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 10:19 AM
Hi Folks
Had
an interesting problem turn up last week when I changed my rear tires.
I
realized that my "good" tires that still had tread on them (Kumos)
where
different sizes, one was a 245/45/17. the other was a 225/45/17.
I had
purchased both sets (new and old) at Discount tires. The mis-matched
ones
were purchased from a different store.
So here's the
problem. While discount gave me a good deal, 100% credit for
the wrong
size tire,etc, I was running two different size tires for 20k
miles!
While the car seems fine, do you think this could have detrimental
long term
effects on my transfer case?
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:57:17
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: potential transfer case problem
> Chip -- Ask the stores
for the outside rolling diameter as
> this is the important number for us
AWD guys. What kind of
> car do you have? Were the different
tires on the rear axle
> or on one side of the car? The difference
in rolling
> diameter will have an affect on the speedometer, ABS, center
> differential, etc. but these have the same sidewall and size
>
so we will see.
The diameters are different since the profile percentage
is the same and the
width is different. There's a possibility of
viscous coupling damage.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 15:06:25
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: potential transfer case problem
Question -- if you have a PVC
pipe 4" in diameter, 1/8" thick, and 8" wide
then it will have an outside
rolling diameter of something (circumference is
"2*Pi*R" I think). If
you have another PVC pipe that is the same dimensions
except it is 10 feet
wide then it will have the exact same outside rolling
diameter, right?
It would only be different if the profile and diameter are
different.
The width should not affect the measurement.
- --Flash!
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Thursday, August 30,
2001 2:57 PM
The diameters are different since the profile percentage is
the same and the
width is different. There's a possibility of viscous
coupling damage.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:12:18
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: potential transfer case problem
Flash - maybe ya need to read
up on our FAQ about tire diameters and
plus sizing.
The second part of
a tire size is it's aspect ratio, or the height of
the tire, which is a
percentage of the width of the tire. The basic
"radius" is half the
wheel size plus a percentage of the width on tires.
http://www.team3s.com/FAQplussizing.htm-
-Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Darren
Schilberg
Question -- if you have a PVC pipe 4" in diameter, 1/8" thick,
and 8"
wide
then it will have an outside rolling diameter of
something
(circumference is
"2*Pi*R" I think). If you have another
PVC pipe that is the same
dimensions
except it is 10 feet wide then it
will have the exact same outside
rolling
diameter, right? It would
only be different if the profile and diameter
are
different. The
width should not affect the measurement.
- --Flash!
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Thursday, August 30,
2001 2:57 PM
The diameters are different since the profile percentage is
the same and
the
width is different. There's a possibility of
viscous coupling damage.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:16:57
-0700
From: Robert Koch <
eK2mfg@foxinternet.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: potential transfer case problem
I believe that the tire size
is as follows:
245 = distance in mm for width
45 = % of width from rim
area to tread---or profile
so a 225/45 tire is 634.3 mm high or 1991.702
in circumference and 652.3 x 2048.222 respectively. I think you may have a
problem.........
- -----Original Message-----
From: Darren Schilberg
[SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:06 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: potential transfer case problem
Question -- if you have a PVC
pipe 4" in diameter, 1/8" thick, and 8" wide
then it will have an outside
rolling diameter of something (circumference is
"2*Pi*R" I think). If
you have another PVC pipe that is the same dimensions
except it is 10 feet
wide then it will have the exact same outside rolling
diameter, right?
It would only be different if the profile and diameter are
different.
The width should not affect the measurement.
- --Flash!
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Thursday, August 30,
2001 2:57 PM
The diameters are different since the profile percentage is
the same and the
width is different. There's a possibility of viscous
coupling damage.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#594
***************************************