Team3S              Friday, June 1 2001              Volume 01 : Number 509

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 02:03:57 -0400
From: <logic316@technologist.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: team3s V1 #508

- ----- Original Message -----
From: team3s <owner-team3s@speedracer.speedtoys.com>

> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:47:45 -0400
> From: "WALTER D. BEST" <WDBO39@erols.com>
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Tire question?
>
> One other thing that I haven't seen mentioned in all this is: If you have
> an accident with tires that are rated at any level below the vehicle
> manufactures recommendation, and the accident is investigated, which most
> are if the car is totaled or near totaled, the insurance company may not
> cover your loss or repairs. Due to the fact the tires on the car at the
> time of the accident were not the correct tire specified by the vehicle
> manufacture. Insurance Companies are real PITA when they have to shell
out
> money. And if you were not at fault and a lawyer learns about the tire
> issue they may try to pin the fault on you and try to get you to pay
damages
> and to repair the other car(s) involved. And of course all legal fees are
> on you to defend your self, since your insurance company has already left
> the room.
>
> Just food for thought, you know how insurance companies are and not to
bring
> up what people think of lawyers.
>
> Bottom line is it really worth saving a few buck for cheaper lower speed
> rated tires?
>
> Thanks but no thanks,
>

You really should have a heart-to-heart talk with your insurance agent.
Simply put, as long as a tire is approved for street use and is within
normal wear limits, it is "safe" as far as the government, inspection
stations, and insurance companies are concerned. But it also depends on the
circumstances of the accident. If you were sitting at a stop light, and
some moron slams into you from the rear (I've had that happen twice), no
insurance company would even think of investigating your tires, and they
would have no legal grounds for doing so. But if you had bald tires on a
rainy day, and you couldn't stop your car in time to prevent a collision,
the insurance company might have a case (if they bother to look at them).
Insurance companies invariably blame accidents on human error and almost
never examine equipment violations (and in my opinion there are no unsafe
cars, only unsafe drivers). Besides, even the lowest speed rated tires are
actually rated well above the legal speed limits, at least here in the U.S.
Futhermore, manufacturer's recommendations have nothing to do with
government safety regulations, according to which any street-legal tire you
can buy in the store is considered safe to use on any car (or pickup, or
van) that you can fit it onto.

- - Frank

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 04:06:11 -0400
From: "Mihai Raicu" <aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Drag cooeficient on TT/VR4?

What is the drag cooeficient on our cars (TT/VR4)? Has anyone seen anything
published anywhere? I searched around, but couldn't find anything. I'm
also curious how the VR4 active aero affects the numbers?

- -MIKE-
95 Red VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:23:32 -0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes Complete!

Rich,

   I appreciate copying me as first on the email but I know others deserve
thanks also (Bedell, Mohler, Middaugh, Lucius, Forrest, etc.) I am so
looking forward to seeing the F40 kit and wheels and all. Please notify Bob
Forrest, bf@bobforrest.com <mailto:bf@bobforrest.com> , and have him
consider adding that bit of learning to the Team3S page. Then email Jeff
Lucius, stealthman92@yahoo.com <mailto:stealthman92@yahoo.com> , and have
him include it in his Brakes section. This is very valuable to know.
   I could have gone to the Big Blacks my first upgrade but I wanted
something that I KNEW was tested. Since Merritt absolutely hammers his
brakes I knew the Big Reds were tested (and I was backed by local guru John
Christian).
   Thanks. Looking forward to pictures.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with Big Reds, stock rotors, SS lines, stock wheels

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard [mailto:radanc@home.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:18 PM
To: Schilberg, Darren
Cc: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Brakes Complete!

Well guys my brake job is complete. They are awesome. I will try to get
some pictures out soon. It has the F-40 calipers, Porsche 993 T 320x32
mm rotors, and mounting equipment by KVR. Switched to Forgeline T6
aluminum Wheels. I wanted to thank some of you for some references and
help here, but wanted to caution about a not so good experience with
KVR. Hey Flash, sorry, but Terry didn't do due diligence here. He failed
to ensure that the bells were manufactured for the RIGHT car. Mine is a
first gen and he made for 2nd gen. This led to extra labor in machining
the hubs. I'll be dammed if I was going to take KVRs route by having the
shop re-machine the bells. 2nd was his assurance to make everything bolt
on by interacting with the wheel company that he advised on "only wheel
he would gaurantee this would work well with his experience with club
beamers and these wheels. Well he didn't bother to call Forgeline and as
a result nothing fit. Extra labor again in messing around with spacers
which ended up being extra 3/16". All in all the kit took 3 months
longer then expected due to machine shop problems and their brake line
supplier which happens to be right here in San Clemente CA. The kit cost
me an extra $550 due to their lack of due diligence. They only offered
to pick up $290 of it (hub machining). Anyway, they work great, but I
might reconsider who does it and even though they are reputable and
Terry is very knowledgeable, the attention to detail was poor.

Rich
92 Stealth TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:37:24 -0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: Team3S: FW: Rosso ?

Here is what I found in checking out TireRack. This actually solves all of
our problems.

There is a P-Zero system and a P-Rosso system (the Rosso is
about 6 months old).

P-Zero Asymmetrical, 245/40ZR18 = $233 (in stock)

P-Zero Directional, 245/35YR18 = $246 (in stock)
P-Zero Directional, 245/45ZR18 = $239 (in stock)

P-Zero Rosso Asymmetrical, 245/45YR18 = $239 (special order)

* The only tire in a Z rating is the P-Zero Asymmetrical and the
P-Zero Directional. The others are a Y rating.
* The only tire to stock spec of 245/40/18 on my 1995 VR-4 is the
P-Zero Asymmetrical.

This eliminates all arguments since my only choice in Pirelli tires that are
High Performance in my stock size are a Z rated tire. I am happy and that
is what I have. Sorry to create all the confusion before when this really
clears things up.

Henri - great job on fitting all of your cars with Z rated tires. Keep up
the safety that some of us others lack sometimes.

- --Flash!
dschilberg@pobox.com

3Si #577
1995 Black VR-4 w/ Big Reds, Autopower rollbar, Sparco Evo race seat,
Simpson 5-point harnesses, Pirelli P-Zeros, Goodridge SS lines, Magnecor
KV85 wires, and a custom spark plug plate
http://www.team3s.com/FAQrollbar.htm

Henri wrote:

>>Nice but they do not NEED to be Z rated.

> No NEED, provided you do NOT drive Z-speed

>> If I recall, Z-rating is 149+ mph which from discussions on the list
>> means that they can withstand something crazy like 7+ hours at 149 mph
(or
>> something like that remember).

> It's not crazy, it's what the mfg designed the tire for.

>>Who can drive like that and where can they drive like that.

> I did, in Germany, and I'm sure other can as well..

>>Getting an H- or U- rated tire does not mean it can not do 149 mph ...

> No, IT CAN ___NOT___ go 149 mph....I saw tires tests, where a lower tire
> setting worked flawlessly at its speed spec, and FAILED WITHIN MINUTES
JUST
> ABOVE THAT.

> Granted, it was a Mfg test, and the tire was loaded to its max capacity,
but
> it FAILED in less than 2 minutes, and less than 5 km/h ABOVE its speed
> rating...please, don't gamble with your life !!!!

> If you don't beleive me, ask Roger what happened to its lower-rated winter
> tires on a DYNO !!!!

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: 1 Jun 2001 06:32:19 -0700
From: John Monnin <jkmonnin@altavista.com>
Subject: Team3S: Aftermarket BOV's

I keep reading e-mails about aftermarkets BOV's that cause the car to stumble between shifts. It seems to be the BOV's that vent to atmosphere like the HKS and Apex.

Does the Blitz type S BOV that Vents to intake tract (like stock system)have stumbling problems too? I have found one or two emails in the archive complaining about this but there was questions is they were calibrated correctly.

It would seam that the reason for having a aftemarket BOV is to keep the turbo's aggressively spooled between shifts. If the car stumbles between shifts you will loose any speed advantage gained by keeping the turbo's spooled and your car won't go any faster.

So I am assuming the BOV that vent to atmospere are just for people who want to sound faster and are not worried about going faster.

The other reason to have a aftermarket BOV it to eliminate the honking Noise cause by aftermarket open air cleaner. To eliminate the honking noise your most cost effective solution would be to use the 1st gen Eclipse BOV(with adapter) or the Blitz Type S (with adapter) if you want something more stylish.

Correct me if I am wrong.

P.S. Who maintains the Team3S FAQ page? I have not seen a significant update in almost a year. I see the following issues (that are not in FAQ)come up over and over on the list.

- - BOV comparison and installtion.
- - Boost controller comparison
- - List all available spark plugs (copper, platinum,irridium) and pros' and cons
- - List spark plug wires avialable and pros and cons.

I have been saving what I considered helpful emails for nearly a year. I would be willing to submit summarys for the FAQ.

Searching the archives is difficult, for example search for FIPK and you will find ever email that was sent by a person with FIPK listed as modification in signature file.

John Monnin
jkmonnin@altavista.com

Find the best deals on the web at AltaVista Shopping!
http://www.shopping.altavista.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:28:10 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aftermarket BOV's

> It would seam that the reason for having a aftemarket BOV is
> to keep the turbo's aggressively spooled between shifts. If
> the car stumbles between shifts you will loose any speed
> advantage gained by keeping the turbo's spooled and your car
> won't go any faster.

Pretty much. People will tend to disagree though, it seems to vary from car
to car and how the valve is adjusted.

> So I am assuming the BOV that vent to atmospere are just for
> people who want to sound faster and are not worried about
> going faster.

If you are running something like an HKS VPC that isn't affected by venting
the air out of the intake tract then the open-air BOV can help since most of
them have a larger discharge area and can flow more air which helps keep the
turbos spinning as much as possible.

If you have turned up your boost significantly, then swapping out the
factory BOV for a 1G DSM or the Greddy, etc. will help hold in that higher
boost and make your turbos more effective at higher boost levels.

Some people say venting the BOV works fine, others have problems with idling
and stalling, etc. If you feel lucky you can try going that way, but if it
is adjusted to work as it is supposed to (ejecting air out when there's a
difference in pressure between Y-pipe and intake plenum) the motor WILL go
rich until the pressure is equalized again. Unless you are using a VPC in
which case it doesn't matter. You can tighten up the BOV to minimize how
much air is expelled, but that defeats the whole purpose of having a BOV.

> The other reason to have a aftermarket BOV it to eliminate
> the honking Noise cause by aftermarket open air cleaner. To
> eliminate the honking noise your most cost effective solution
> would be to use the 1st gen Eclipse BOV(with adapter) or the
> Blitz Type S (with adapter) if you want something more stylish.

Yeah, the honking noise is another big reason some people upgrade the BOV.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:14:27 -0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drag cooeficient on TT/VR4?

I thought I saw it a long time ago as a very good number (less than 0.3 or
0.34 I believe). I'll have to find it again.

If anyone has some of those Road & Track magazines from the early 1990s
(they are the ones that give a side view, 2D drawing of a car with the
transmission in black, and all sorts of good numbers).

- --Flash!
1995 Black VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mihai Raicu [mailto:aa2345@wayne.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 4:06 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Drag cooeficient on TT/VR4?

What is the drag cooeficient on our cars (TT/VR4)? Has anyone seen anything
published anywhere? I searched around, but couldn't find anything. I'm
also curious how the VR4 active aero affects the numbers?

- -MIKE-
95 Red VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:30:51 -0700
From: "Steve Clarke" <steven-c@e-d-a.com>
Subject: Team3S: Thunderhill & road racing

Hi,
I took my SCCA license back in Feb. Due to pressure of work, I have not had
a change to get to a track since and had to bail out of three races and one
drivers day.

On Wednesday I managed to sneak out for a full day at T'Hill with a private
group that I have run with a few times before. It was really great to be
back on a race track and we all had lots of fun I also learned a few things
and thought I would share a few observations.

I shared the track with the same group of the six faster cars that I have
run with a few times over the past 2 years. These are a 360 Modena, stock
Viper, stock '99 911, a nicely modified NSX and a full race '89 911. The
360, Viper and myself essentially ran our own sub-group at the front of the
pack. While the 360 and Viper had a barely noticeable advantage on the
straights, I could usually carry more than enough speed out of the preceding
corners to eliminate any advantage they had. So all in all the Mitsu made a
pretty good showing posting fastest laps all morning.

There were a couple of professional race drivers and crews there doing some
testing and exhibition runs following the double Nationals at the weekend.
So I got some high quality advice which really worked for me so I am passing
this along to those who share the passion for track time.

One of the things that I have been wondering for a while is how/should I
modify my lines to take advantage of AWD. A TransAM driver sat with me for
a few laps and observed that AWD allows much earlier application of the loud
pedal (well we all know that!). The next part is the useful bit. He showed
me that the transitional stability and early power-on advantage that we
have, means that classical "straightening of the curves" does not always
apply for us. At T'Hill this is really apparent through turns 3,4 & 5. The
classic line is to exit T3 at a point which gives a late apex on T4 and a
straight line up the hill to T5. However, we experimented and found that an
aggressive early apex at T4 works best for us. This line is essentially a
very shallow "S" which we can take with the power full on. The less stable
2WD cars struggle with this line. I tested a couple of versions of the
modified AWD and found that I could reach T5 5-10mph faster than by using
the classical line.

The other observation was about oversteer/understeer. T5 & T6 at T'Hill are
a sharp down-hill followed by a fast off-camber right hander. For me that's
2nd out of five, grab 3rd down the hill and WOT around T6 with significant
power-on oversteer all the way round it. T2 is a constant radius single
apex left hander taken pretty much flat in 3rd with lots of power-on
oversteer. Over lunch, we set up a pseudo autoX loop. Five 30-60 mph left
handers in 2nd - and lots of power-on understeer!!

So my observation -- at higher speeds with lower available torque (higher
gears) and smooth transitions power oversteer is the norm. At low speeds,
with more available torque and harsher transitions power understeer in the
norm. We spent some time thinking this through and it seems to be at least
partly to do with how much I can un-weight the front wheels in 2nd versus
how little I can un-weight them in 3rd and 4th.

Sorry for the length of this, hope it helps the road racers, lets get a gang
of us at T'Hill together.

Steve Clarke
Yellow 94 VR4, FPIK, Manual Boost (14.5), Eibachs, 1.5 -ve front camber,
2.0 -ve camber rear, exhaust work, Porterfield cryo rotors, Porterfield R4E
pads, rotor dust shields removed, ram air cooling and a very sorry set of
Sumitomo HTRZ II's.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:39:05 -0700
From: Rich Fowler <richfowler2@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

This weekend, I'm planning on testing the stock intercoolers in my car
versus the front mount in Georges car (he doesn't know this yet, but I'm
sure he will not mind). We both have similar mods 357s, ARC 2, Injectors,
newly rebuild engines. I going to use a dual input digital thermometer with
two wire probes. That way, I can check constant readings and peak hold.
I'm plan on taking the temp before the drivers side intercooler and after
the intercooler and comparing the readings to what the FMIC temps are before
and after the core. If we test idle temps, 15 psi run through 3rd, idle
after a hard run, and cruise, that should be sufficient to get an idea of
the benefits of the FMIC.

If anyone has suggestions or requests, let me know. I haven't seen this
done before on similar cars with similar mods at the same time & day.

Rich

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:42:28 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

That should be some good data.

Thanks.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rich Fowler [mailto:richfowler2@home.com]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:39 AM
To: Team3s@Stealth-3000gt. St
Subject: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

This weekend, I'm planning on testing the stock intercoolers in my car
versus the front mount in Georges car (he doesn't know this yet, but I'm
sure he will not mind). We both have similar mods 357s, ARC 2, Injectors,
newly rebuild engines. I going to use a dual input digital thermometer with
two wire probes. That way, I can check constant readings and peak hold.
I'm plan on taking the temp before the drivers side intercooler and after
the intercooler and comparing the readings to what the FMIC temps are before
and after the core. If we test idle temps, 15 psi run through 3rd, idle
after a hard run, and cruise, that should be sufficient to get an idea of
the benefits of the FMIC.

If anyone has suggestions or requests, let me know. I haven't seen this
done before on similar cars with similar mods at the same time & day.

Rich

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:40:45 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Thunderhill & road racing

At last! Somebody else who puts the power down early!
Do you suffer any tire problems from wheelspin on the fronts?

>One of the things that I have been wondering for a while is how/should I
>modify my lines to take advantage of AWD. A TransAM driver sat with me for
>a few laps and observed that AWD allows much earlier application of the loud
>pedal (well we all know that!). The next part is the useful bit. He showed
>me that the transitional stability and early power-on advantage that we
>have, means that classical "straightening of the curves" does not always
>apply for us.

I have definitely noticed this. I first learn the traditional lines from an
instructor or following other cars, then start looking for places to put
the power down early. By the end of the weekend, my lines are completely
different than RWD cars, especially 911s.

By the bye, to get rid of the duplicate messages, let's start cleaning up
our To: fields. I notice that some of my Reply to All commands pick up
three or four people, plus the list address. All we really need, of course,
is the list address.

Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:40:45 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Thunderhill & road racing

At last! Somebody else who puts the power down early!
Do you suffer any tire problems from wheelspin on the fronts?

>One of the things that I have been wondering for a while is how/should I
>modify my lines to take advantage of AWD. A TransAM driver sat with me for
>a few laps and observed that AWD allows much earlier application of the loud
>pedal (well we all know that!). The next part is the useful bit. He showed
>me that the transitional stability and early power-on advantage that we
>have, means that classical "straightening of the curves" does not always
>apply for us.

I have definitely noticed this. I first learn the traditional lines from an
instructor or following other cars, then start looking for places to put
the power down early. By the end of the weekend, my lines are completely
different than RWD cars, especially 911s.

By the bye, to get rid of the duplicate messages, let's start cleaning up
our To: fields. I notice that some of my Reply to All commands pick up
three or four people, plus the list address. All we really need, of course,
is the list address.

Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:56:30 EDT
From: ThorHolth@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Aftermarket BOV's

John:

    If I remember correctly, one very important feature of BOV's is that they
prevent damage to the throttle assembly as a result of high pressure/low
pressure on either side of the thottle plate.

    When you let off the throttle quickly, you want the intake to return to 1
atm, rather than hold twice that pressure, because the engine, as it spools
down, is still drawing air. 2-2.5 atm on the intake side of the plate, with
a heavy draw on the other side, could theoretically, bend the plate and jam
the throttle.

    Could definitely make for a long walk home.

Thor Holth

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:47:31 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: duplicate posts

Damn! So much for good ideas. Didn't work, I see.
Rich

>By the bye, to get rid of the duplicate messages, let's start cleaning up
>our To: fields. I notice that some of my Reply to All commands pick up
>three or four people, plus the list address. All we really need, of course,
>is the list address.
>
>Rich/old poop
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:14:01 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

Rich

I'd like to see temps at the air filter at idle, cruising and at WOT. I did some
messing around about a year ago and found that at WOT the temp of the
input air skyrockets ---- I assume it's from the turbos/headers building up
the under-hood temperatures but I was surprised at the amount of increase.
I was seeing increases of up to 50 º --- you need a very small diameter
thermocouple to follow the rapid changes in temperature.

The most important measurement to me is temp into the filter and temp into
the throttle body.

        Jim Berry
====================================================

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Fowler [mailto:richfowler2@home.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:39 AM
> To: Team3s@Stealth-3000gt. St
> Subject: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?
>
>
> This weekend, I'm planning on testing the stock intercoolers in my car
> versus the front mount in Georges car (he doesn't know this yet, but I'm
> sure he will not mind). We both have similar mods 357s, ARC 2, Injectors,
> newly rebuild engines. I going to use a dual input digital thermometer with
> two wire probes. That way, I can check constant readings and peak hold.
> I'm plan on taking the temp before the drivers side intercooler and after
> the intercooler and comparing the readings to what the FMIC temps are before
> and after the core. If we test idle temps, 15 psi run through 3rd, idle
> after a hard run, and cruise, that should be sufficient to get an idea of
> the benefits of the FMIC.
>
> If anyone has suggestions or requests, let me know. I haven't seen this
> done before on similar cars with similar mods at the same time & day.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

Hi Rich,

This is a great idea! I am curious about your equipment. What
thermometer and probes are you using (brand, model, etc.)? What is
the time constant for the probes?

Multiply the time constant by about 5 to determine how long in
seconds it will take for the sensor to read near 100% of the air
temperature value around the sensor. The fastest commercially
available temp sensors (J and K type for example) that I have found
have a time constant of 0.2 seconds. This means it would take that
sensor one second to fully register the temperature around it. This
may be fast enough to record the temp changes caused by our turbos in
a WOT situation. However, sensors with a time constant of 1 or
several seconds, will produce a time-averaged record of the
temperature changes (a "smearing" of the values).

While measurements from "long" time constant probes are still valid,
they are limited in reflecting the true temperature readings. Quick
temperature "spikes" will tend not to be recorded accurately. Just
something to consider when designing your experiments and
interpreting the results of your tests.

Remember, to roughly determine intercooler efficiency, you need
ambient temp, and temp of the air entering and leaving the IC. More
complete characterization of the IC requires more information (such
as outside air flow speed through the IC as well as air temps in
front of and behind the outside of the IC) and is beyond the simple
tests we can easily perform on the street. Core size measurements
will also be helpful in interpreting the results of your
measurements.

Thanks for taking the initiative in performing these tests and taking
the time to communicate the results to us.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Fowler" <richfowler2@home.com>
To: "Team3s@Stealth-3000gt. St" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:39 AM
Subject: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

This weekend, I'm planning on testing the stock intercoolers in my
car
versus the front mount in Georges car (he doesn't know this yet, but
I'm sure he will not mind). We both have similar mods 357s, ARC 2,
Injectors, newly rebuild engines. I going to use a dual input
digital thermometer with two wire probes. That way, I can check
constant readings and peak hold. I'm plan on taking the temp before
the drivers side intercooler and after the intercooler and comparing
the readings to what the FMIC temps are before and after the core.
If we test idle temps, 15 psi run through 3rd, idle after a hard run,
and cruise, that should be sufficient to get an idea of the benefits
of the FMIC.

If anyone has suggestions or requests, let me know. I haven't seen
this done before on similar cars with similar mods at the same time &
day.

Rich

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

__________________________________________________
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*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:31:11 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: duplicate posts

Thats because you had team3S listed twice in the to: line ----
sheese, what a maroon ;-).

        Jim Berry
=========================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:47 AM
Subject: Team3S: Re: duplicate posts

> Damn! So much for good ideas. Didn't work, I see.
> Rich
>
> >By the bye, to get rid of the duplicate messages, let's start cleaning up
> >our To: fields. I notice that some of my Reply to All commands pick up
> >three or four people, plus the list address. All we really need, of course,
> >is the list address.
> >
> >Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:38:29 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

> The most important measurement to me is temp into the filter
> and temp into the throttle body.

On an intercooled car the air filter intake temp probably isn't as relevent
as the after turbo and after intercooler temperatures. Certainly it is good
to know, but I don't think it is the most imporatant of the temps being
measured. The post turbo temps are much higher than the intake temps and
constitute a greater percentage of the heat to be dissipated by the
intercoolers.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the experiment shows. :-)

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:54:46 -0500
From: "Rabourn, Kent W." <kwrabou@nppd.com>
Subject: Team3S: Stealth Long Block For Sale

For Sale a 1992 Dodge Stealth, DOHC, Twin Turbo complete long block with 52k
miles.
Engine Heads, Crankshaft, rods, etc are disassembled from s/block. Engine
experienced rod bearing wear, and was in process of being repaired by local
mechanic. After 5 weeks of waiting for repairs to be completed and losing
confidence in what I would end up with opted for a rebuilt long block with 3
year-36k mile warranty. Prefer to sell complete. Call or email to make
offer: (402) 564-3341 evenings or (402) 563-5909 days, or email
rabourn@megavision.com.
Kent Rabourn, Columbus, Nebraska.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:37:58 -0400
From: "Michael D. Crose" <ncsu4me@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brake work questions

I am doing some brake work and I was wondering what I need to do if the
reservoir empties when I have the calipers and brake lines off (I am
planning on using some golf tees to stop the lines but it may still leak a
little). On my old car I had to bleed the master cylinder if the reservoir
drained, with the ABS on my VR-4 will I have to bleed that as well?

Any suggestion on rebuilding the front calipers or is it as easy as the
service manual makes it seem?

Thanks,
Michael D. Crose

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:51:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: <ukyo@speedfactory.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aftermarket BOV's

> Some people say venting the BOV works fine, others have problems with
> idling and stalling, etc. If you feel lucky you can try going that
> way, but if it is adjusted to work as it is supposed to (ejecting air
> out when there's a difference in pressure between Y-pipe and intake
> plenum) the motor WILL go rich until the pressure is equalized again.
> Unless you are using a VPC in which case it doesn't matter. You can
> tighten up the BOV to minimize how much air is expelled, but that
> defeats the whole purpose of having a BOV.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

When I first swapped in my TurboXS BOV Type-H I had some stalling
problems. It vents A LOT of air to atmosphere when shifting or coming off
hard throttle. The car stalled maybe 3 times in the first 2 or 3 days I
had the BOV in. Since then it has cleared up and I can pound the throttle
and shift with no fear of the car stalling out on me. Could be the ECU
learned the situation, could be that I'm just lucky. I'm not sure, but I
have noticed zero stumbling (never had any stumbling associated with the
BOV) and thus far no more stalling. It's been a few months now since put
the BOV in, BTW.

- --Travis

'97 3000GT      (Red)
'94 3000GT VR-4 (Green)

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brakes Complete!

Rich,

You're right about Terry. Back in '97, my friend with
a 91 Stealth TT bought the 6 piston AP system from KVR
($4265CN) and wound up returning the Forgline
rims($xxxx) cause they would not fit. Victor finally
had the inner surface of his aftermarket rims machined
to clear the mongster AP calipers. Terry's
discription of offset (which he calls the X factor)
leaves a lot to the imagination.

I'm not clear why you had to machine your hubs as the
1st and 2nd gen rotors fit the same hub. It's just
the rotors are smaller/larger diameter.

PS I think Terry is confused about the Black vx Red
Porsche calipers.

Do you live anyplace close to Pittsburgh? I'd love to
see your setup...especially the Porsche rotors.

Be of good cheer,
John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard [mailto:radanc@home.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:18 PM
> To: Schilberg, Darren
> Cc: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Brakes Complete!
>

> help here, but wanted to caution about a not so good
> experience with KVR.

but Terry didn't do due diligence here. He failed
> to ensure that the bells were manufactured for the
> RIGHT car. Mine is a
> first gen and he made for 2nd gen. This led to extra
> labor in machining
> the hubs. I'll be dammed if I was going to take KVRs
> route by having the
> shop re-machine the bells. 2nd was his assurance to
> make everything bolt
> on by interacting with the wheel company that he
> advised on "only wheel
> he would gaurantee this would work well with his
> experience with club
> beamers and these wheels.

>Well he didn't bother to call Forgeline and as
> a result nothing fit. Extra labor again in messing

> Terry is very knowledgeable, the attention to detail
> was poor.
>
> Rich
> 92 Stealth TT

=====
Please respond to jczoom@iname.com
'93 TT with Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH 5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake work questions

> I am doing some brake work and I was wondering what I need
> to do if the reservoir empties when I have the calipers and
> brake lines off

I just went through this. I had all 4 calipers off to paint them and
I let all the fluid drain out. The manual describes an easy procedure
for priming the brake master cylinder (nothing like this needed for
clutch MC). However, in practice it was not the same as what the
manual states.

The manual says to remove the brake line from the front of the MC and
use your finger like a bleeder valve (be sure you have gloves on),
with an assistant at the brake pedal and you putting fluid in the MC.
For my MC, when I filled the MC with fluid, the fluid started to flow
out of the opening (where that brake line was connected). At that
point I told my wife NOT to press the brake pedal. I got that brake
line back on as fast as I could. Luckily I had lots of paper towels
around the MC in anticipation of the worst. No damage that I could
see. We proceeded to bleed the lines (RR-LF-LR-RF) with the engine
running with no problems. I assume all the air is out of the line and
the MC as all calipers flowed well.

No more than 0.5 L is needed to completely replace and bleed the
brake hydraulic system (sorry, web page not up yet). I used Ate Type
200 (at $8.50/liter from http://www.928gt.com/Brakes.htm it's the
best deal in hi-performance fluid for the street; 536ºF dry BP, 392ºF
wet BP).

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael D. Crose" <ncsu4me@hotmail.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:37 AM
Subject: Team3S: Brake work questions

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:25:01 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Aftermarket BOV's

I bought my car with the FIPK, HKS dual exhaust, AVC-R at 1.0bar, and the HKS SSBOV in it. I think the valve is great for attention, but seems to serve no other purpose than annoyance. When under boost, if you let off the accelerator quickly, the car lunges forward VERY hard, and I can hear things
creaking! And, no matter how many times I've unplugged the battery and re-learned the ECU, I've never had it stall/stumble due to the valve. BOL. =)

Ken Stanton
'91 Pearl White RT/TT
Organizer - 3SI Rochester (NY)
7 days to NORTHEAST GATHERING 2001!!
groups.yahoo.com/group/3si_rochester/files/NorthEast.html

John Monnin wrote:

> I keep reading e-mails about aftermarkets BOV's that cause the car to stumble between shifts. It seems to be the BOV's that vent to atmosphere like the HKS and Apex.
>
> Does the Blitz type S BOV that Vents to intake tract (like stock system)have stumbling problems too? I have found one or two emails in the archive complaining about this but there was questions is they were calibrated correctly.
>
> It would seam that the reason for having a aftemarket BOV is to keep the turbo's aggressively spooled between shifts. If the car stumbles between shifts you will loose any speed advantage gained by keeping the turbo's spooled and your car won't go any faster.
>
> So I am assuming the BOV that vent to atmospere are just for people who want to sound faster and are not worried about going faster.
>
> The other reason to have a aftermarket BOV it to eliminate the honking Noise cause by aftermarket open air cleaner. To eliminate the honking noise your most cost effective solution would be to use the 1st gen Eclipse BOV(with adapter) or the Blitz Type S (with adapter) if you want something more stylish.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong.
>
> P.S. Who maintains the Team3S FAQ page? I have not seen a significant update in almost a year. I see the following issues (that are not in FAQ)come up over and over on the list.
>
> - BOV comparison and installtion.
> - Boost controller comparison
> - List all available spark plugs (copper, platinum,irridium) and pros' and cons
> - List spark plug wires avialable and pros and cons.
>
> I have been saving what I considered helpful emails for nearly a year. I would be willing to submit summarys for the FAQ.
>
> Searching the archives is difficult, for example search for FIPK and you will find ever email that was sent by a person with FIPK listed as modification in signature file.
>
> John Monnin
> jkmonnin@altavista.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:44:34 -0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake work questions

I think on Lucius' page or the Team3S page on brake things it suggests to
start the car when bleeding the brakes since there is an ABS system with
brake fluid in it. It also suggests doing it in a specific order (FL, RR,
FR, RL or something) instead of fronts, rears like we usually think about.
Be careful jacking up the car and remember "Tighten until you strip the
threads and then another quarter turn tighter." (just kidding)

I have some pix of the brakes but nothing spectacular yet but ask if you
want to see them. Mostly from the Big Red setup.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4 with Big Reds and SS lines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael D. Crose [mailto:ncsu4me@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:38 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Brake work questions

I am doing some brake work and I was wondering what I need to do if the
reservoir empties when I have the calipers and brake lines off (I am
planning on using some golf tees to stop the lines but it may still leak a
little). On my old car I had to bleed the master cylinder if the reservoir
drained, with the ABS on my VR-4 will I have to bleed that as well?

Any suggestion on rebuilding the front calipers or is it as easy as the
service manual makes it seem?

Thanks,
Michael D. Crose

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:54:54 EDT
From: ThorHolth@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Toyo Proxes FZ4

Has anyone heard about the TOYO Proxes FZ4? I've been shopping for tires and
these came recommended. Last set of TOYO's I bought were terrible in the
rain, but the tread pattern looks better on the FZ4.

If Toyo's no good, what would a good three-season tire be? I don't do any
track driving, just street.

- -Thor Holth

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:54:10 -0400
From: "Darrien Lao" <dlao2@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: ECU OBD connector

Does anyone know where to get molded 12 pin connectors that will attach to
our ECU diagnostic port? I'm to install a semi-permanant datalogger port in
my car, and I don't want to pay the extortion fees that the datalogger guys
want for a new cable. Thanks to anyone who can help.

Darrien Lao
dlao2@home.com

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:06:21 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ECU OBD connector

> Does anyone know where to get molded 12 pin connectors that
> will attach to our ECU diagnostic port? I'm to install a
> semi-permanant datalogger port in my car, and I don't want
> to pay the extortion fees that the datalogger guys
> want for a new cable. Thanks to anyone who can help.

What year car do you have? You didn't mention it.

If you have a 1G car (OBD-1), then just use a wire bundle with appropriately
sized spade connectors on the ends to plugs into the individual diagnostic
jack pins. If you have a 2G car (OBD-2) then you need one of the available
interfaces as it isn't simple RS-232 coming out of the jack.

PPT has a 1G interface (hardware only) for $55.

http://www.pptracing.com/

Follow the links to find the "ALDL interface".

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 00:02:04 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl $RTEC$" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone interested in stock vs FMIC data?

Jeff is very right with the speed of the thermocouple ! I once made a
datalogging device and read 4 temp values the same time, about 10 samples
per second. I later foudn out that the probes had a reaction time of 1
second so the logs where not worth a lot :(

In fact, a professional system would need to have 7 temp sensors :
1) ambient before air filter
2) compressor inlet before turbo
3) discharge after turbo
4) IC inlet
5) IC outlet
6) intake inlet (before TB)
7) intake manifold

IMHO, I'd use 1, 3, 5 and 6. 2 is probably not different against 1 in our
cars, 4 would be but we then calculate the efficiency of the IC system
including piping. / is not easy to do as the manifold is heated up a lot and
a temp sensor screwed in gives not that accurate readings. A temp sensor
infront the IC is only necessary when the runs are done udner differerent
conditions (for compensation)

If 1, 3, 5, 6 can be measured under the same conditions, we can benefit of a
great data-pool :)

Thanks in advance
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:49:19 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl $RTEC$" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Aftermarket BOV's

>     If I remember correctly, one very important feature of BOV's is that
they
> prevent damage to the throttle assembly as a result of high pressure/low
> pressure on either side of the thottle plate.

No, not really. The TB assembly is not the danger but more will be the
backpressure travelling back the IC and causing possible damage to the
compressor wheels of the turbos. This is why such a valve is used.

> a heavy draw on the other side, could theoretically, bend the plate and
jam
> the throttle.

Theoretically yes but not on our cars :)

> Does the Blitz type S BOV that Vents to intake tract (like stock
system)have stumbling problems too?

No, the Blitz vents to the atmosphere and not back to the intake.

The statement about the BOV and realtionship to the VPC is correct as then
the amount of air is not metered anymore and the ECU should not go into an
overrich condition.

I had the HKS SBOV in my car together with the first mods. But it was never
perfect and I often tried to readjust it. Today I do have the Greddy Type S
installed that vents back to the intake and I'm happy with it :)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:19:54 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Toyo Proxes FZ4

> Has anyone heard about the TOYO Proxes FZ4?

These are the tires currently on my VR-4. I didn't buy them - the previous
owner did. I haven't priced 18" tires recently (last ones I bought
personally were 245/45/ZR17), but they were $240 a piece and don't corner
anywhere NEAR as well as my 17" Firehawks. Then again, the Toyos are
all-season M+S tires and the Firehawks are high-performance tires. I may
run the Toyos on my first DE, but after that, I'll be getting something else
(Firehawks, Pole Position, Pirellis, etc.) I may keep the Toyos for trips
and winter tires, but I've been spoiled... I want better =)

- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Lamp Black 3000GT VR-4 (AWD, 4WS, ECS)          31,000 mi
   K&N FIPK, HKS Turbo Exhaust, GReddy PRofecA,
   HKS Sequential BOV, HKS Turbo Timer, GReddy Boost Gauge
   Castrol Syn5W50, BG SynchroShift(TX, TC), Mobil1 (R.Diff)
'94 Algae-Blue "fun to slide around corners" Corolla 75,000mi
http://pws.ihpc.net/erikgross/home.html

********************* For Sale ************************
'95 Galaxy White Pearl 3000GT (NA, DOHC, 5MT)       78,000 mi
   Magnacor KV85, M1 10W30, K&N FIPK, Skippy PCV Catch Can,
   SZ50EP 245/45/ZR17, 17x8.5J 1GTT wheels
*******************************************************