team3s            Thursday, April 12 2001            Volume 01 : Number 462

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:59:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mark William Hindelang" <hindelan@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Team3S: 13 vs 15 g

tell me how can this 13 g hybrid kill a 15g stealth.

You can see his home page. he has an incredible ride!

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8576/Intro.html

Mark

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:16:16 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl $RTEC$" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 13 vs 15 g

> tell me how can this 13 g hybrid kill a 15g stealth.

What do you mean by hybrid ? George changed the lights and hood and needed
another front bumper to get the huge FMIC into it :)

The 13g have less lag than the 15g but I can't remember George told anything
about killign a 15g Stealth. But George is on the list and can comment.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:40:49 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Thanks

To all those who contributed to my question on how to make an S bend --
thanks. As you may recall, I asked for help on making a very tight S-bend
for my brake ducts.

I solved it with what several of you suggested -- clothes dryer duct.
Normal-size dryer duct won't work, but I found 3-in duct that fit
perfectly. Guess I better learn not to dismiss people's suggestions so
quickly, because the duct worked better than anything else. I didn't know
it came in that diameter.

So now I have these two huge 4 in. round scoops (made from plastic sewer
pipe) in my grill where the driving lights used to be, each connected to a
4-to-3 in. plastic vacuum cleaner coupling connected to 3-in dryer duct
that makes the S-bend straight down and under the car to a 3 in. plastic
plumbing joint and a radiator hose bracket that joins the 3.0 in. duct to
2.5 in. industrial rubber hose which heads back to the brakes. Everything
except the rubber hose was purchased at Menard's for about $15.00.

I wonder how long the dryer duct will last at high speeds. I had it up to
120+ today and it seemed OK, but the jury is out on how long it will take
repeated buffeting like that. Guess we'll see. Black racer's tape might
provide the necessary reinforcement.

Rich/95 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 AWD TT

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:18:35 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 13 vs 15 g

I can't download his movie clips. Even though I have a T1, it keeps timing
out. He must have a very slow server.

Rich

At 04:59 PM 4/11/01 -0400, you wrote:
>tell me how can this 13 g hybrid kill a 15g stealth.
>You can see his home page. he has an incredible ride!
>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8576/Intro.html

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:22:40 -0400
From: "Michael Bulaon" <profilevr4@3000gtvr4.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost Problems, very strange!

>>I un-hook the two vacuum lines that control the waste-gates (DUMB,
normally you would
>>overBOOST!) and I am still boosting at 7psi.

Where exactly did you unplug the lines controlling the wastegates? It sounds
like you un-plugged the wrong lines.

>>then unplugged the last vacuum line on the Y-pipe before the throttle body
(black w/red
>>ends) and I hit about 14-15psi EASY before I get off of it.

This is a sure indication that you un-plugged the vacuum line controling the
wastegate actuators. This shows that no boost signal is going to the WG's
and that they are not opening causing you to overboost.

I suspect you tried unplugging the lines to the stock boost control solenoid
but instead un-plugged the lines to the EGR valve which is right next to the
stock boost control solenoid on the left and did not disconnect them at the
wastegates themselves.

Here is a basic diagram of the setup starting from the line you disconnected
at the y-pipe.

                      Y-pipe
O
|
|
O
Four-way connector-------------------
      O              O                    O
|              |                    |
|    |                   |
O              |                    |
        Front turbo wastegate    |                    |
                                 |                    |
                                 O                    |
                      Rear turbo wastegate          |
                        |
                                                      |
                                                      O
Stock boost control solenoid
O
|
|
O
Intake of rear turbo

>>Here's my theory. The last vacuum line on the Y-pipe goes down to a
connecter behind the intake. One of the two vacuum
>>lines that goes to the waste-gate solenoid comes off this connecter.

Sorta, refer to the diagram above.

>>I (think) know that it takes boost pressure to open the waste-gates after
the computer "does its thing" (whatever that may >>be).

Kinda right, the wastegates will always open at 7psi and the ECU has nothing
to do with this.

This is how you car boosts.

Refer to my diagram, it should help explain this better.

Right when you get on the gas, your car will boost. Some of the boost
traveling from the turbos to the Y-pipe is diverted to that hose you
disconnected on the y-pipe. From that hose it goes to a four way
connector(this hose is using one of the ports on the connector so there are
three left). One of the ports of the four way connector goes to the WG of
the front turbo. Another port goes to the WG of the rear turbo. And the last
port goes to the boost control solenoid.

Essentialy what happens is that boost coming from the Y-pipe enters the
connector and then exits to both wastegates and the stock boost control
solenoid. If enough boost reaches the wastegates, meaning if a certain
amount of boost pressure reaches the wastegates, they will open and lower
the amount of boost being generated by the turbos.

Here is where the boost control solenoid comes in. Remember I said if enough
boost pressure reaches the wastegates they will open.........Well what the
boost control solenoid does is prevent enough boost pressure from reaching
the wastegates so they don't open and the turbos continue to build boost.
It does this by staying in an open position and bleeding off the boost
pressure back to the intake of the rear turbo.

Here are some diagrams to better explain.

                     Y-pipe
O
|
|
O
Four-way connector-------------------
      O              O                    O
|              |                    |
|    |                   |
O              |                    |
        Front turbo wastegate    |                    |
                                 |                    |
                                 O                    |
                      Rear turbo wastegate          |
                        |
                                                      |
                                                      X
Stock boost control solenoid (Closed position)
O
|
|
O
Intake of rear turbo

With the boost control solenoid closed it allows boost pressure build up
causing the wastegates to open.

                      Y-pipe
O
|
|
O
Four-way connector-------------------
      O              O                    O
|              |                    |
|    |                   |
O              |                    |
        Front turbo wastegate    |                    |
                                 |                    |
                                 O                    |
                      Rear turbo wastegate          |
                        |
                                                      |
                                                      O
Stock boost control solenoid (Open position)
O
|
|
O
Intake of rear turbo

With the stock boost control solenoid opened, boost going to the wastegates
is bled off and cannot build up enough pressure to open them. It is bled
into the intake of the rear turbo. So the wastegates never see enough
pressure to open.

>>SO, if you disconnect the two vacuum lines from the waste-gate solenoid,
then one bleeds to the air and the other gets no >>reading, so you will keep
building boost until (a) the waste-gates open (which never happens), (b) the
engine blows, or (c) >>the turbos max out.

The answer is D none of the above. The top port of the boost control
solenoid goes to the intake of the rear turbo while the bottom port goes to
the four-way connector. If you disconnect the hose only at the top port,
nothing will happen and the car will boost normally. If you disconnect it
only at the bottom port, then this would be the same as the boost control
solenoid constantly being in an open position causing high boost.
Disconnecting the hoses from both the top and bottom port has this same
effect.

Answer (b) is partially right, since disconnecting both ports will cause
high boost, you will certainly blow your engine.

I think the first two hoses you disconnected were not at the wastegates or
at the stock boost control solenoid. If you had, your car would definately
boost higher than 7psi unless the wastegates were stuck open which I doubt
and you proved by, disconnecting the hose at the Y-pipe which caused you to
boost around 14-15psi. You could have mistaken the EGR valve for the boost
control solenoid since it's right next to it, and disconnected those hoses
instead.

My guess is that your boost control solenoid is faulty. Reconnect the hoses
and disconnect the hose at the bottom port of the boost control solenoid. If
you got the EGR valve and boost control solenoid confused, looking at the
firewall the boost control solenoid is the one on the right.

Ok, now with with the bottom port of the solenoid disconnected, take the car
for a spin.

BE VERY CAREFULL!!!!!!!!!
With the bottom port of the solenoid disconnected, boost pressure to the
wastegates is constantly being bled off so you will overboost and possibly
blow your engine!!!!

Go easy on the car and keep a watchful eye on your boost guage(Your
Autometer guage NOT THE STOCK GUAGE. If you don't have any type of
aftermarket boost guage do not do this test!!), if it gets anywhere near
14psi, get off the gas!!!!! Your test is over.

If it doesn't go anywhere near 14psi which it should, then it could be one
of two things:
1.Your wastegates are in fact stuck open (highly doubtful)
2.You disconnected the wrong port at the solenoid. I've heard that even if
you get the hoses at the solenoid mixed up, the car will still boost the
same, which makes sense if the solenoid is simply a valve that opens and
closes.

If this is the case, re-connect the hose at the solenoid and disconnect the
other one and drive the car. The previous warning still applies!!!

Ok now if you've determined that with one of the ports disconnected at the
solenoid your car now boosts high. Re-connect the hose and drive the car(no
warning here, car should the same as before you started the test since all
hoses should now be connected)again. If you now only boost 7psi then it's
definately the boost control solenoid which can then be replaced with a new
one or better yet an aftermarket electronic or manual boost controller.

Hope this helps, feel free to email me with more questions......

Michael Bulaon

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 18:06:47 -0700
From: Richard <radanc@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Kit (!)

I remember this argument regarding suspension failure, and I agree that
suspension components must be in good shape. In racing these parts are
replaced routinely with brake and other components as well. I personally
wouldn't use the APs because there isn't a reasonable cost bolt on kit
or custom way to do it. I have heard some conflicting arguments on this
suspension issue from Terry at KVR and others as somewhat overblown.
Unless you are racing regularly and torturing your car with repeated
high speed braking, I can't imaging suspension components would not be
big issue as well. But then again this a case when the APs would be most
valuable all things being equal. I am using 322 Porsche rotors (mostly
due to this safety issue which Darren had brought to my attention
previously) with a different caliper. This was based upon Terry and
others input regarding the development of the big reds for largely a
rear engine vehicle. The weight displacement of our vehicles is
different and the F-40 bolt placement and number (4) provides better
clamping force then the 2 bolt unequal displacement positioning of the
big red. Again, I know there are a lot of huge big red fans out there
and I can't speak from personal experience with them, but I went a
different route that admittedly required customization. It definitely
cost more then the nice kit Brad has put together. The calipers cost 1k
from Stillen
The rotors were about $175 a piece
The Billet aluminum customization kit from KVR cost about 1k including
(hawk pads, steal lines, brackets, bell with spacer)
total cost $2,350 not including the new Forgelines needed to accomodate
the system (2.2k)

Roger Gerl wrote:
>
> >You should also check out the A/P racing 6 piston caliper with
> >Gigantarotors (355x35.5mm). This is the ultimate, but a bit pricey .
>
> And its a kit for the 3S cars ??? No, I don't think so.
>
> Guys, we are not able to do the math as it is not our daily business, so we
> have to TRUST the people offereing such huge stuff. Unfortunately, some
> tuners are simply think of bigger is better (what is not true o
> nintercoolers) and put some stuff together without doign the math for the
> rest of the parts around the front axle. This is why the Bremsa/Brembo kit
> is limited to 320mm on our cars as the stopping power of this system does
> not exceed the force the suspension can withstadn before any damage to any
> part may occur. They did the math and said not to use their 330mm rotors
> with any calipers due to the high risk. There are too many factors that are
> needed to calculate this and there is no rule of thumb. Unfortunately, NO
> ONE was able yet to show me the calculation for a live-saving (am I wrong
> or what ?) system. The Porsche setup (big reds) with standard 314 mm sized
> rotors may be the ones that are of no danger but delivers better braking.
> Although the system is made for a car that has it's engine in the rear, the
> breakign weight distribution comes close to ours, so this is the way one
> can go with.
>
> By the way, here in Switzerland (and some countries of Europe), every
> little thing that is involved in road safety (springs, shocks, brakes,
> brake-lines, wheels, tires) MUST be shown to the government to proove the
> functionality. The Bremsa rotors came through with lots of talking, but no
> way for the Big Reds ! The checked the system and and had no probel mto the
> calipers but did NOT ACCEPT the brackets from Brad due to aluminum heat
> flexing. I have to find any shop that creates a bracket out of stainless
> steel, smaller but stronger and will eventually pass the government test
> then. The Brembo/Bremsa kit on one of my clients Probe passed without a
> problem.
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
> www.rtec.ch
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:00:09 -0700
From: Jim Elferdink <macintosh@sunra.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brake shims?

Merritt and you other serious brakers--

When changing front pads for racing, do you bother with the anti-squeal
shims and grease?

On my second gen VR-4 there are two shims behind each pad that are supposed
to retain grease to stop squeal. I just changed from my R4S pads to a new
set of R4 that I need to bed in before this weekend's track outing.

I ran the R4S pads for a day at Thunderhill, and for a couple weeks on the
street since. The grease on the shims that I removed had been cooked down to
almost nothing, but it still retained some "greasiness."

I can't imagine those shims doing much good for racing, except perhaps as a
thermal break between the pad and the pistons.

What say ye?

Many thanks!

‹Jim
94 VR-4

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@speedracer.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake shims?

I install the shims..but dont much with the goo.

On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Jim Elferdink wrote:

> Merritt and you other serious brakers--
>
> When changing front pads for racing, do you bother with the anti-squeal
> shims and grease?
>
> On my second gen VR-4 there are two shims behind each pad that are supposed
> to retain grease to stop squeal. I just changed from my R4S pads to a new
> set of R4 that I need to bed in before this weekend's track outing.
>
> I ran the R4S pads for a day at Thunderhill, and for a couple weeks on the
> street since. The grease on the shims that I removed had been cooked down to
> almost nothing, but it still retained some "greasiness."
>
> I can't imagine those shims doing much good for racing, except perhaps as a
> thermal break between the pad and the pistons.
>
> What say ye?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> ‹Jim
> 94 VR-4
>

- ---
Geoff Mohler <gemohler@speedtoys.com>
California, USA

I own a lotta cars. But in the best interests of not having to continualy
edit this file to meet the needs of eight specific lists, and no to awaken the
idiots within others who think -thier- cars are the best and Im a fool for
having anything -but- thier kind of car..I have not listed them. If Im on
the list you are reading..I have one.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:07:39 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake shims?

The shims probably won't hurt but any grease will be turned into charcoal in short
order ---- along with a lot of smoke and stink. for street use the grease is OK but
not for the track.

Jim Berry
=====================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Elferdink <macintosh@sunra.com>
To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 8:00 PM
Subject: Team3S: Brake shims?

> Merritt and you other serious brakers--
>
> When changing front pads for racing, do you bother with the anti-squeal
> shims and grease?
>
> On my second gen VR-4 there are two shims behind each pad that are supposed
> to retain grease to stop squeal. I just changed from my R4S pads to a new
> set of R4 that I need to bed in before this weekend's track outing.
>
> I ran the R4S pads for a day at Thunderhill, and for a couple weeks on the
> street since. The grease on the shims that I removed had been cooked down to
> almost nothing, but it still retained some "greasiness."
>
> I can't imagine those shims doing much good for racing, except perhaps as a
> thermal break between the pad and the pistons.
>
> What say ye?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> > 94 VR-4
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:17:12 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear strut tower bar - installation question

Anyone have any advice on the Cusco rear strut tower bar installation. I
imagine the instructions address this, but they are in Japanese :-(

Thanks,
Oskar
'95 R/T TT

- ----- Original Message -----

> What is the correct method for installing a rear strut tower bar on my TT?
> I have seen posts suggesting that the rear should be on the ground, while
> others state that the rear shoud be jacked up. Seems to me that the car
> should be on the ground. Also, how much should the bar be tightened.
>
> Thanks,
> Oskar

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:37:38 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake shims?

>
>When changing front pads for racing, do you bother with the anti-squeal
>shims and grease?

If I can fit the shims in there with a new set of pads, sure, why not? I
figure they act sorta like a heat sink, and help to radiate heat into the
air stream. No grease, though. If you have some silicon lubricant, coat the
edges of the pad so it slides in easier. It can be a tight fit.

You will notice, after a while, that the rubber seals around the pistons
will deteriorate as they cook. When you change pads, you'll be picking out
pieces of rubber seals with the old pads. This is normal, but not good. If
you continue to run stock calipers and drive the car on the street, you
should rebuild them with new seals every two years or maybe every season.
Otherwise, the pistons will get wet, begin to corrode, and then they will
stick.

By the bye: My biggest problem with changing pads on the stock rotors was
figuring out how to get all four pistons depressed so I could slide new
pads in.

I finally figured it out, if this helps. First, I take off the cap on the
brake fluid reservoir. Next, I use a gigantic pair of slip-joint pliers to
grab and pull back the pad on one side of the caliper, depressing the
pistons all the way on that side. Change that pad. Grab the other side,
pull back the pad and pistons, and then change the second pad. The key:
don't try to change both pads at the same time. Always leave one pad in
place to keep the pistons on that side from extending. Sounds basic, but it
took a few times before it dawned on me.

I got to where I could change a set of pads up front in about 30 minutes
trackside, from tires up to tires down. One good thing about running the
Big Reds is that a set of pads lasts at least two weekends, so I don't have
to perform any more trackside pad changes.

Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 21:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 13 vs 15 g

I don't tell you guys all my stories, Roger~ ;)

http://www.members.home.net/amkreadgto/clip2.htm

That clip was a run with Stillen's Sales rep Ryan's
RT/TT equiped with 15G turbos... both of us were
running 1 bar of boost.. I'm not quite sure about all
his mods... but my mods can be found on:

http://www.geocities.com/Amkreadgto/Hybrid.html

... and... I didnt change the front bumper because I
couldnt fit the FMIC... I changed the bumper SO I can
showoff the FMIC! :p

The bumper is basically a '95 GT stocker..

/George
- --- "Roger Gerl (RTEC)" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> > tell me how can this 13 g hybrid kill a 15g
> stealth.
>
> What do you mean by hybrid ? George changed the
> lights and hood and needed
> another front bumper to get the huge FMIC into it :)
>
> The 13g have less lag than the 15g but I can't
> remember George told anything
> about killign a 15g Stealth. But George is on the
> list and can comment.
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
> www.rtec.ch
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:03:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@speedracer.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brake ducting images..

Since its been of common interest lately..here is what Ive completed on
the Celica AllTrac this evening in prep for my 335mm 6-pot brake upgrade I
will be completing Thursday evening...

http://www.speedtoys.com/~gemohler/celicas/mods1/

Gives an idea of the concept..100% Home Depot mod.

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:09:03 -0700
From: "Ken Middaugh" <kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Apex AVCR install correct?

Yes. If the unit powers up and retains it's settings, that verifies 3 of
the six wires, power and two grounds. The throttle sensor wire can be
checked from the "etc. - Sensor Check" screen, the voltage should rise from
below 1 volt to above 4 volts when you step on the throttle (power on,
engine not running). The speed sensor wire should match your speedometer
fairly closely. Finally, the RPM wire should match your tachometer fairly
closely. If any of these are not "indicating" correctly, the unit will not
function correctly.

Since you've had this problem so long and numerous email exchanges have been
unsuccessful at helping you solve your problems, it would probably be best
to find someone to look at it for you. Perhaps there is a member in your
area that you can entice with a six-pack. Otherwise, try finding a local
speed shop that sells and installs Apexi products. It would be worth paying
them to troubleshoot for you.

One final thought. The unit itself could be faulty. Plugging in another
unit into your harness would provide loads of info.

Good luck,
Ken Middaugh

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark William Hindelang" <hindelan@pilot.msu.edu>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 12:00 PM
Subject: Team3S: Apex AVCR install correct?

> is there any way that i can truthfully tell that the apex avcr the new
indiglo
> unit is wired to my car correctly?? should it give me a particular reading
> somehow that would indicate it IS wired properly. im looking for a
solution
> other than looking at the wires themselves, its too confusing down there.
>
> ive had this thing for a year and still can not produce boost levels.
> my boost guage (apex as well) says it jumps to about 10 and then goes down
to
> 8. so it spikes to 10, and then dropps. no matter WHAT i do to tune in
the
> apex avcr i can't get any boost ubove that.
>
> my mods are
>
> KN Fipk.
> Apex AVCR
> Apex AFC
> Mag Wires 8.5
> Pluggs gapped 0.32
> ATR Downpipe to straight pipe
> ATR FULL exhaust NO CAT
> Ypipe metal
> Cusco Bar
>
> I should be able to pull a lot with this setup. but im not.
> and i can't figure out what the hell is going on.
> i used to be able to spike up to 11psi and drop to 10, but that is because
> i had a HUGE leak in one of my hoses.. i found that to be the culprit, and
> honestly think that the guy who set it up knew he did it wrong, and meant
to
> cut a hole in my hose to give me more boost to cover up his stupid mistake
of
> not installing it right.
>
> thanks.
>
> Mark
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:54:01 -0700
From: "Ken Middaugh" <kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Kit (!)

> replaced routinely with brake and other components as well. I personally
> wouldn't use the APs because there isn't a reasonable cost bolt on kit
> or custom way to do it.

I'm not sure if your main point is a "reasonable cost" kit or just the
availability of a "bolt on" kit. Anyway,
http://www.dynamicracing1.com/Monthly_Specials/monthly_specials.html is
selling the VR4/TT 6 piston AP caliper & 35.5 mm rotor bolt on kit for $2749
as their monthly special. This costs less than the Mov'it Big Red kit even
though it contains better calipers and wider rotors!

- -Ken

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:19:10 -0700
From: "Ken Middaugh" <kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Kit

> Yes wider is better, but even the Big Reds weight 8 pounds but don't move)
> and the stock rotor weighs 16# and 17" wheel and tire is about 50#. This
> gets you 66# of unsprung mass slinging around and at speeds over 115 mph
> this is one helluva lot of inertia (I think that is the right word). Gawd
> only knows how much those 355-sized rotors weigh.

Since they are two-piece rotors with aluminum hats, they will probably be
lighter than one-piece all steel rotors.

- -KM

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:17:49 -0700
From: "Ken Middaugh" <kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Kit (!)

> >You should also check out the A/P racing 6 piston caliper with
> >Gigantarotors (355x35.5mm). This is the ultimate, but a bit pricey .
>
> And its a kit for the 3S cars ??? No, I don't think so.

Yes, it is a kit for the 3S cars. Currently $2749 from Matt at Dynamic
Racing.

Is it over-sized for our suspension components when shod with sticky 275
track tires? Maybe (Yes according to Bremsa, but where's the math?).
However, if one were to use a "less-grippy" pad such as the Porterfield R4E
endurance pad, you could avoid the super-high-G/suspension-breaking stops
yet have a wider rotor that will provide superior cooling and resistence to
warping.

- -KM

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:50:27 -0400
From: Mark Hindelang <hindelan@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Unbelievable Accident

Bit off topic.. one of my eclipse buddies sent this to me.

this is insane what these guys did. read the article then follow
the pictures at the end.

http://c-speedracing.com/bbs/Forum5/HTML/000248.html

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:52:33 EDT
From: LizVong21@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: motor for sale

I have a modified 3.2 yes 3.2 liter motor for sale from a 92 stealth twin
turbo motor has tons of mods including JE pistons polished and ported heads
and one big intercooler . will sell really cheap need to get it out of the
garage never been started . call me at 605-310-3439

Vong Teso
SF,SD
best offer has been $3000 for just the motor $4000 for the whole car

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:41:18 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Kit (!)

>Yes, it is a kit for the 3S cars. Currently $2749 from Matt at Dynamic
>Racing.

Ah, yes, didn't remember the link to this kit.

>Is it over-sized for our suspension components when shod with sticky 275
>track tires? Maybe (Yes according to Bremsa, but where's the math?).

You know that I can't do the math as well as I'd never get it from them, so
don't ask. As I already stated, the Government here must review ALL mods on
the car regarding safety. One point they mentioned was the struts that are
not strong enough and may cause troubles. They contacted Mitsu in japan and
got the limits of the suspension. As they are able to produce any diameter
of rotors why whould they build a smaller system instead of a giga-setup
with mega-rotors and 10-pot ap ?

>However, if one were to use a "less-grippy" pad such as the Porterfield R4E
>endurance pad, you could avoid the super-high-G/suspension-breaking stops
>yet have a wider rotor that will provide superior cooling and resistence to
>warping.

Ken, look at the points where the caliper is mounted. The longer the
distance to the caliper-piston center line to the wheels center is longer
as longer the diameter of the rotors is. This even increases the danger of
warping due to the materials flex properties. But I'd not take this as an
argument. If one uses sticky tires, and grabbing brakes the ABS kicks in
really early for sure. Of course for racing we disable ABS but on the road,
the ABS may not wrok properly with the new power of the brakes. Here, it is
my opinion that we should find solutions in a possible range where is no
danger for the parts as well as compatibility to the existing system is
still in the valid range.

It reminds me to the early tests with the Blitz boost controller. I got
warnings from Bob and Jack but was ignorant and runned the car out of its
limits... and killed the pistons. But the brakes are a part of life-saving
and this is much more important for me than any 10mm more of diameter (not
35.5mm, leave the dot away and your on it :)) or 10 pistons in a caliper :)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

>-KM
>

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:48:26 -0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake shims?

The Porsche street pads have some shims on the backside of them which is why
their pad thickness is not as big as the Pagid Orange.

The Pagid Orange do not have shims but for really racing who cares if they
squeak some. This is the good audible warning that they are not up to
temperature or too hot, etc.

I have gotten the front pad change down to 20 minutes (are you listening,
Merritt?? :-)) from tires off to tires on (that is when they are cold since
you should not change them when hot). On the Big Reds I rock the pads a
little side to side first until one slides out. Then I take the longest
screwdriver I have and insert it clean through the caliper and leverage it
against the front or back of the caliper and gently persuade the piston back
into the hole a little. The long screwdriver ensures you do not mark up the
rotor or caliper. Then with one pad out the rotor is a little loose so take
out the other pad. At this time you can use your gloved hands and use your
fingers to push the pistons back in place. Yes opening the reservoir helps
the pistons move back into place. Speed Bleeders help when it is all
finished and ready for bleeding.

- --Flash!
dschilberg@pobox.com

3Si #577
1995 Black VR-4 w/ Big Reds, Autopower rollbar, Sparco Evo race seat,
Simpson 5-point harnesses, and a custom spark plug plate
http://www.team3s.com/FAQrollbar.htm

- -----Original Message-----
From: Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 12:38 AM
To: Jim Elferdink; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake shims?

By the bye: My biggest problem with changing pads on the stock rotors was
figuring out how to get all four pistons depressed so I could slide new
pads in.

I finally figured it out, if this helps. First, I take off the cap on the
brake fluid reservoir. Next, I use a gigantic pair of slip-joint pliers to
grab and pull back the pad on one side of the caliper, depressing the
pistons all the way on that side. Change that pad. Grab the other side,
pull back the pad and pistons, and then change the second pad. The key:
don't try to change both pads at the same time. Always leave one pad in
place to keep the pistons on that side from extending. Sounds basic, but it
took a few times before it dawned on me.

I got to where I could change a set of pads up front in about 30 minutes
trackside, from tires up to tires down. One good thing about running the
Big Reds is that a set of pads lasts at least two weekends, so I don't have
to perform any more trackside pad changes.

Rich/old poop

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:06:24 -0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Big Red Kit (!)

But if one modifies the suspension (struts, shocks, springs, etc.) then
wouldn't that allow you to modify your brakes over there in Europe? Are
they just getting the stock numbers from Mitsu (and can we see what they
are?) or can GC, Tein, etc. supply numbers to us so we can figure out what
they can handle?

- --Flash!
dschilberg@pobox.com

3Si #577
1995 Black VR-4 w/ Big Reds, Autopower rollbar, Sparco Evo race seat,
Simpson 5-point harnesses, and a custom spark plug plate
http://www.team3s.com/FAQrollbar.htm

- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl [mailto:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 5:41 AM
To: 3S Tech List
Subject: Re: Team3S: Big Red Kit (!)

>Is it over-sized for our suspension components when shod with sticky 275
>track tires? Maybe (Yes according to Bremsa, but where's the math?).

You know that I can't do the math as well as I'd never get it from them, so
don't ask. As I already stated, the Government here must review ALL mods on
the car regarding safety. One point they mentioned was the struts that are
not strong enough and may cause troubles. They contacted Mitsu in japan and
got the limits of the suspension. As they are able to produce any diameter
of rotors why whould they build a smaller system instead of a giga-setup
with mega-rotors and 10-pot ap ?

Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch

*** Info: http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:14:11 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake shims?

I always use high temperature brake grease between the shims. It gets
cooked, but I believe that even in it's rigid form, it keeps the pads from
rattling around.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Elferdink [SMTP:macintosh@sunra.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:00 PM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: Brake shims?
>
> Merritt and you other serious brakers--
>
> When changing front pads for racing, do you bother with the anti-squeal
> shims and grease?
>
> On my second gen VR-4 there are two shims behind each pad that are
> supposed
> to retain grease to stop squeal. I just changed from my R4S pads to a new
> set of R4 that I need to bed in before this weekend's track outing.
>
> I ran the R4S pads for a day at Thunderhill, and for a couple weeks on the
> street since. The grease on the shims that I removed had been cooked down
> to
> almost nothing, but it still retained some "greasiness."
>
> I can't imagine those shims doing much good for racing, except perhaps as
> a
> thermal break between the pad and the pistons.
>
> What say ye?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> <Jim
> 94 VR-4
>