team3s
Thursday, January 18
2001 Volume 01 :
Number
381
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:57:19 -0600
From: "Vineet Singh \(3S\)" <
stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject:
Team3S: [A/T] Torque converter
A torque converter may give you "more hp"
by being lighter and smaller
in diameter (meaning, it will take AWAY less hp,
akin to an underdrive
pulley, less rotating mass, and more efficient
pump/lockup).
You can buy upgrade torque converters and more importantly,
shift kits
from I believe GTPRO or
www.dunrite-converters.com (talk to
Tony or
Dean, tell em I sent ya from the
http://at.dsm.org list). Shift kits
are needed
when you up the hp of your engine though forced induction
of some sort (NOS,
super/turbocharge, etc).
Why are they needed? Well Mitsu made the
tranny's shift with a certian
firmness... a sloppy feeling of not actually
shifting. They do this on
purpose so people think the cars power delivery is
"smooth". This
creates wear and heat (isn't that the same thing? :). To
"quicken" the
shifts, a shift kit is installed, it's about 75$ worth of parts
that
include springs and balls that are professionally installed into
your
valve body. There are numerous springs to choose from, avoid
the
"black spring of death" that people have installed on their
DSM's...
it will snap your neck when shifting. I think most people choose
the
red spring. You can see what I am talking about by ordering the kit,
I
can't help you more than that through email alone.
The shift kit
also bumps up the pressure to your clutch packs, which
means they can hold
more power (and have less slippage, and create
less heat). This all installed
in the valve body, so you don't even
have to remove the tranny from the car.
I would send the VB out to
someone who knows what they are doing rather than
doing it yourself
(unless you know this stuff), it's quite complicated
inside.
Once the kit is installed, start looking at torque converters IF
you
have a turbo. If you have NOS or a supercharger, you can most of
the
time set the juice or boost to come on at your stock flash stall
speed
(usually around 2300rpm, will get higher the more torque your
motor
produces). You can get your stock one modified, or Joe at
www.Protorque.com MIGHT have his billet ones
done by now. I was told
his would be lighter and smaller in diameter. The
more you mod the TC,
the less streetable your car gets. Talk to any of the
professionals I
mentioned above, and see what's right, if anything, for your
car.
Don't waste your time if your car doesn't have any mods done to it,
or
is not pushing over 230hp.
Vinny Singh
http://www.kaizentuning.com/http://manualcd.dsm.org/ - DSM & 3/S
Service manuals on CDROM
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn
Enz/Towers Perrin" <
enzs@towers.com>
To: <
stealth@stls.verio.net>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 17, 2001 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: (torque converter) was Fuel
Pump Upgrade / Injectors for
the non-turbo.
> More torque, that
is correct. An Auto 3K SL needs more torque to
get off
> the line
quicker. Can you change a clutch in an Automatic??
Will
this
> help anything?
> guys,
> A torque
converted will NOT give you more HP but it may give you
more
>
torque
> to the transmission if it has a better torque multiplier. It
will
give you
> the ability to use your horsepower more effectively. A
better clutch
in a
> standard transmission will not give you more HP it
will only be able
to
> hold
> more HP without slipping. Also for
a street car a standard
transmission is
> usually better for
performance because you are able to easily change
your
> launch RPM as
apposed to change your stall RPM in an automatic, plus
it's a
> lot
more fun to drive. :)
>
> Read this:
>
>
http://www.martelbros.com/bm/torque.htm>
>
Chris
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:40:16
-0500
From: "Mihai Raicu" <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: RE:
Wrong diagnostic - Piston Slap???
Jeff,
So, is the piston slap
sound heard only when the car/engine is accelerating
under (moderate) load
and in gear? In my mom's SOHC, I cannot duplicate the
sound when the
car is at a standstill and just reving up the engine.
So, from what I
gather, if this is an accurate diagnostic, it could not have
been affected by
the mechanic missadjusting something on the complete 120K
tuneup (timing
belt, A/C belt, water pump, tensioneer, fuel filter,
plugs+cables+distributor
cap, ...)?
I may have a 2nd diagnostic to see if their diagnostic was
correct. I will
also ask what they would want to do to fix it and how
much it would cost.
What would be the way to go about fixing it and how much
is the price range?
Thanks Jeff,
-
-MIKE-
aa2345@wayne.edu95 Red VR4
Detroit
Metro Area, Michigan
-
---------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001
09:36:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wrong diagnostic - Piston Slap???
"Piston slap: The condition
caused by too much clearance between the
piston and the cylinder walls. The
piston rattles or slaps against
the wall of the cylinder. It makes a hollow,
muffled, bell-like
sound. "
- - -
http://www.connect.ab.ca/~barachj/car-dic.htmAs
you surmised, piston slap is not the same as and does not sound
like lash
adjuster ticking.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:41:34
-0500
From: "Mihai Raicu" <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: RE:
Injector Duty Cycle @ 100%!!!!
Matt,
Advice well taken. I
will turn down the boost to Setting B (.8 bars) during
the cold weather to
make it easier on the injectors. Then, when the warm
weather comes
back, I want to monitor the injectors again to see if the IDC
values are
lower.
- -MIKE-
aa2345@wayne.edu95 Red VR4
Apexi AVC-R
Electronic Boost Controller
K&N FIPK, Boost Gauge, EGT
Meter
Detroit Metro Area, Michigan
-
------------------------------------
Does you AVC-R measure 100% duty
cycle to mean injector open 100% full
pulsewidth (ie: essentially switched on
all the time), or 100% on display =
85% pulsewidth (maximum "safe" injector
firing time)? If it means 85% real
pulsewidth, then 100% on the display
isn't quite as bad as it sounds.
- - -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:10:14
-0600
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: Wrong diagnostic - Piston Slap???
Mike,
This whole
"piston slap" thing sounds fishy to me. As Jeff said, its a
gradual
thing. Which means you should have heard this noise before the 120k
service. A loose belt or inproperly timed car could make these
noises. If
the timing is really off, the pistons can hit valves.
I've got my money on
a mechanic slip up. You might want to get a
second opinion from another
mechanic.
>From: "Mihai Raicu"
<
aa2345@wayne.edu>
>
>
>Jeff,
>
>So,
is the piston slap sound heard only when the car/engine is
accelerating
>under (moderate) load and in gear? In my mom's SOHC, I
cannot duplicate
>the
>sound when the car is at a standstill and
just reving up the engine.
>
>So, from what I gather, if this is an
accurate diagnostic, it could not
>have
>been affected by the
mechanic missadjusting something on the complete 120K
>tuneup (timing
belt, A/C belt, water pump, tensioneer, fuel
filter,
>plugs+cables+distributor cap, ...)?
>
>I may have a
2nd diagnostic to see if their diagnostic was correct. I will
>also
ask what they would want to do to fix it and how much it would cost.
>What
would be the way to go about fixing it and how much is the price
>range?
>
>Thanks
Jeff,
>
>-MIKE-
aa2345@wayne.edu>95 Red
VR4
>Detroit Metro Area,
Michigan
_________________________________________________________________
Get
your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:48:54
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: Wrong diagnostic - Piston Slap???
> So, is the piston
slap sound heard only when the
> car/engine is accelerating under
(moderate) load
> and in gear? In my mom's SOHC, I cannot
duplicate
> the sound when the car is at a standstill and just
>
reving up the engine.
For my car, the noise occurs at idle and as I pull
away and sounds
vaguely like a diesel engine. I really don't know if an
engine with a
real clearance problem would have a louder "slap" noise under
load or
not. Sorry.
> So, from what I gather, if this is an
accurate
> diagnostic, it could not have been affected by
> the
mechanic missadjusting something on the
> complete 120K tuneup (timing
belt, A/C belt,
> water pump, tensioneer, fuel filter,
plugs+
> cables+distributor cap, ...)?
No, I don't see how any
routine maintenance would cause excessive
clearance between piston and
cylinder wall. This is a build problem
or a wear problem.
So this
noise started right after the maintenance work? If so, I
would guess that
piston slap is NOT the problem. But IF it is and the
noise bothers you, then
a bottom-end rebuild would probably be the
best solution. This should be
fairly easy and cheap for the common
SOHC 6G72 (used by Chrysler and Mitsu
since 1988).
Is there oil smoke in the exhaust or extra pressure in the
PCV
system?
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Mihai Raicu" <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
To: "Jeff Lucius"
<
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Cc:
"Team3S" <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 17, 2001 1:40 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Wrong diagnostic -
Piston
Slap???
<snip>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:51:46
-0600
From: "Scholtz, Johann" <
Johann_Scholtz@bmc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
Curt,
Thank you so much for the
prompt reply. I am not familiar with the mechanics
of the car (I break stuff
easily). So I get the professionals to do it. In
this cause it was Brad
Bedell from (
bbedell@austin.rr.com) /
Big red brakes
fame did the installation of the down pipe and exhaust. I was
thinking about
the same lines as you with your synopsis of fuel starvation
and had the car
with Brad two weeks ago. Brad contributes the problem to cold
weather. He
did check that the boost setting is within limit during that
visit. Again I
have no clue about the mechanics of this wonderful piece of
equipment called
the Electronic Value Control System (I did not get a manual
with the
installation). Knowing Brad to be on the conservative side with
the
adjustments I think it is ok, but I have no means to verify it. I
will
unhook the battery for a few minutes to reset the status, although I
thought
that if I had to take the car to the dealer the information might be
useful
for quick problem determination.
Regarding your other
questions:
a. I will have to get to Brad on the specs of the down-pipe to
verify if it
eliminates the front or the rear pre-cat.
b. The cut usually
happens between 4,000 to 5,000 RPMs or when I go full
throttle at lower
RPM. Would that be what you mean about the turbos spiking
or spooling
up too fast?
c. Any idea where I can get information about the settings of
the boost
controller? I had the case about 3 months ago where I had to
leave the car
with NTB for a tire change. When I came to collect the
car 5 hours later,
nothing had been done about the tires. The breaks and the
engine were
flaming hot, the front mats on both side filthy of grime of the
shop floor,
and the car parked on a different spot. Confronting the
shop manager, he
replied that his people had his permission to test drive
cars. I could not
get the maps clean and had to buy new ones ($110.00). What
comes to mind
now, is that a few days after that I also had fuel-cuts.
My 1st reaction
was to check the boost settings, and Brad had to readjust the
settings,
after which it disappeared. At that time the exhaust was still
stock.
Coming back to your other helpful hints:
a. Can the situation
cause engine damage, and is it safe to drive the car?
b. How can I check that
the O2 sensor is hooked up properly. Will the CD
manual be of any
help?
Thanks,
Joe '97 VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:20:13
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
Hi Joe,
If you need HKS
EVC IV instructions, please check out my web page
link below.
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-evc_si.htmThat
link and many others are on the Garage Page at my web site.
Your model
car has an oxygen sensor in the down pipe just before the
main cat. If the
aftermarket pipe did not allow for this O2 sensor to
be mounted then this
could easily be a cause for the Check Engine
light. The ECU is fussy about
its O2 sensors not being present or
malfunctioning. The pre-cats are not part
of the stock DP and
normally are not replaced by a DP (with some exceptions).
The Manual
on CD will help you locate parts. You can also just get your car
up
in the air and look around some.
I don't think turbos can spool too
fast. We can only wish it could be
so. But wastegates may not open fast
enough or far enough to dump the
exhaust and so boost could get too high or
just gradually creep up.
From your comments, it looks like NTB abused
your car. Someone needs
spanked! Preferrably in their pocketbook!
Jeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scholtz, Johann" <
Johann_Scholtz@bmc.com>
To:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 17, 2001 3:51 PM
Subject: Team3S: Engine Check Light
remains on
Curt,
Thank you so much for the prompt reply. I am not
familiar with the
mechanics of the car (I break stuff easily). So I get
the
professionals to do it. In this cause it was Brad Bedell from
(
bbedell@austin.rr.com) / Big red brakes
fame did the installation of
the down pipe and exhaust. I was thinking about
the same lines as you
with your synopsis of fuel starvation and had the car
with Brad two
weeks ago. Brad contributes the problem to cold weather. He did
check
that the boost setting is within limit during that visit. Again
I
have no clue about the mechanics of this wonderful piece of
equipment
called the Electronic Value Control System (I did not get a
manual
with the installation). Knowing Brad to be on the conservative
side
with the adjustments I think it is ok, but I have no means to
verify
it. I will unhook the battery for a few minutes to reset the
status,
although I thought that if I had to take the car to the dealer
the
information might be useful for quick problem
determination.
Regarding your other questions:
a. I will have to get
to Brad on the specs of the down-pipe to verify
if it eliminates the front or
the rear pre-cat.
b. The cut usually happens between 4,000 to 5,000
RPMs or when I go
full throttle at lower RPM. Would that be what
you mean about the
turbos spiking or spooling up too fast?
c. Any idea
where I can get information about the settings of the
boost controller?
I had the case about 3 months ago where I had to
leave the car with NTB for a
tire change. When I came to collect the
car 5 hours later, nothing had
been done about the tires. The breaks
and the engine were flaming hot, the
front mats on both side filthy
of grime of the shop floor, and the car parked
on a different spot.
Confronting the shop manager, he replied that his
people had his
permission to test drive cars. I could not get the maps clean
and had
to buy new ones ($110.00). What comes to mind now, is that a few
days
after that I also had fuel-cuts. My 1st reaction was to check
the
boost settings, and Brad had to readjust the settings,after which it
disappeared. At that time the exhaust was still stock.
Coming back to
your other helpful hints:
a. Can the situation cause engine damage, and is it
safe to drive the
car?
b. How can I check that the O2 sensor is hooked up
properly. Will the
CD manual be of any help?
Thanks,
Joe '97
VR4
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:24:59
-0800
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Question regarding ball bearing
Assuming the ball bearing turbos these
guys are selling are about $600
more than the plain Jane TD05 turbos, is it
worth the extra money. As I
understand it the main claim to fame for the BB
turbos are the improved
spoolup time --- are there other benefits
???
He/they also state that thay can make the manifolds out of steel or
stainless,
I keep hearing you guys badmouth stainless for the headers --- is
some
sort of mild steel better for the headers or what is the correct
stainless to
use ???
Jim
berry
=====================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Hi Dave,
>
> I updated my turbo upgrade page to include this new
information.
>
>
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius2/j2-2-turboguide.htm>
> I corresponded with Don, the seller, about this turbo kit. See
the
> message below. I called JUN Motorsports and talked to Alex, who
said
> Todd could better answer my questions next week when he returns
to
> the office. Unfortunately that will be after the bidding closes.
You
> can visit the IHI site
http://www.ihi-turbo.com/ to get details
on
> the RHF55 turbos included in this kit. They are roughly equivalent
to
> 17G or GT357 turbos. I had not heard of them used on our cars
before.
>
> I very much like the exhaust housings that replace the
precats but
> retain the O2 fittings. Maybe the buyer would let ATR,
Buschur, or
> someone else 'copy" them? I am not sure stainless is the
best
> material for exhaust manifolds. I thought perhaps they were
chromed
> iron (like our rear one) or steel (like our front one). I didn't
ask
> Don what the material was. Send him an email with your questions
and
> take a look at my turbo upgrade web page.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:18:09
-0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: ADMIN: Power issues...
Tis the season..
Firstly, as
PG&E runs out of monopoly money, the likelyhood of power
dropping on the
Email/WWW server here gets higher every day. Power will
be out for a
max of two hours.
The file server is hardened against this (as a function
of its operating
system..it can survive outages with complete safety W/O a
UPS) and the BSD
box will fsck (checkdisk) itself with ease..and come online
within minutes
of regaining power.
Be assured that while down, your
local ISPs will be storing Email destined
for the list, and will be delivered
usually within 15 minutes of power
restoration on my end.
Note:
1/23/01 *this month* PG&E wants to do service in the hood..or at
my
house. I dunno, but I got a notice stating power will be down from
8am to
1:30pm that day. *shrug* Oh well.
*grin*
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:24:03
-0600
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
Jeff,
Let me clarify my
turbo spool-up comments, so there is no confussion for
Joe. In my
testing, the ECU will initate fuel-cut, do to MAS overrun,
quicker if the
turbos are spooling faster. In other words the faster at
which the MAS
is registering air flow increasing, the sooner fuel cut will
be
initated.
Here was my test. One and a half years ago, after I
installed water
injection, I did some tests with my Blitz DSBC. The
settings on the Blitz
allows you to change your peak boost and the speed of
the turbos spooling
up. On a 70 degree day, with the boost controller
set to spool up the
fastest, (This would be similiar to just pulling off the
wastegate hose) My
Stealth would hit fuel cut at around 1.3 kg/cm2.
The Blitz has a peak hold
function, so it makes this testing easier.
As I slowed down the spool-up
speed with the Blitz, the peak boost at which
fuel cut was reached
increased. And at the lowest setting, and a BOV
that doesn't leak too bad,
I was able to hit a whapping 1.6
kg/cm2.
And just for further note, I don't do these kinds of experiments
often. And
I don't recommend these experiments, because it can be
harmful to your car's
health. (and yours from having the seatbelt lock
during fuel-cut) :-)
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org>From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
>To:
"Scholtz, Johann" <
Johann_Scholtz@bmc.com>
>CC:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
>Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:20:13
-0800 (PST)
>
>
>I don't think turbos can spool too fast.
We can only wish it could be
>so. But wastegates may not open fast enough
or far enough to dump the
>exhaust and so boost could get too high or just
gradually creep
up.
>
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:36:23
-0600
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
Joe,
If you're working
with Brad, I assume you're in Texas. You need to file a
complaint about
NTB with the State attorney general's office for consumer
protection and the
Better Business Bureau. They have no right to drive your
car around
unless you directed them to diagnose a problem. You might also
consider
filing in small claims court for reimbursement for the mats.
That's why shops
use paper mats to protect the carpet. Next time, use
Discount
Tire.
Chuck
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Scholtz, Johann [
SMTP:Johann_Scholtz@bmc.com]
>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 4:52 PM
> To:
'Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st'>
Subject: Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
>
> Curt,
>
Thank you so much for the prompt reply. I am not familiar with the
>
mechanics
> of the car (I break stuff easily). So I get the
professionals to do it.
> In
> this cause it was Brad Bedell from
(
bbedell@austin.rr.com) / Big
red
> brakes
> fame did the installation of the down pipe and
exhaust. I was thinking
> about
> the same lines as you with your
synopsis of fuel starvation and had the
> car
> with Brad two weeks
ago. Brad contributes the problem to cold weather. He
> did check that the
boost setting is within limit during that visit. Again
> I
> have no
clue about the mechanics of this wonderful piece of equipment
>
called
> the Electronic Value Control System (I did not get a manual with
the
> installation). Knowing Brad to be on the conservative side with
the
> adjustments I think it is ok, but I have no means to verify it. I
will
> unhook the battery for a few minutes to reset the status, although
I
> thought
> that if I had to take the car to the dealer the
information might be
> useful
> for quick problem
determination.
>
> Regarding your other questions:
> a. I
will have to get to Brad on the specs of the down-pipe to verify if
>
it
> eliminates the front or the rear pre-cat.
> b. The cut usually
happens between 4,000 to 5,000 RPMs or when I go full
> throttle at
lower RPM. Would that be what you mean about the turbos
>
spiking
> or spooling up too fast?
> c. Any idea where I can get
information about the settings of the boost
> controller? I had the
case about 3 months ago where I had to leave the
> car
> with NTB
for a tire change. When I came to collect the car 5 hours later,
>
nothing had been done about the tires. The breaks and the engine were
>
flaming hot, the front mats on both side filthy of grime of the shop
>
floor,
> and the car parked on a different spot. Confronting the
shop manager, he
> replied that his people had his permission to test
drive cars. I could not
> get the maps clean and had to buy new ones
($110.00). What comes to mind
> now, is that a few days after that I also
had fuel-cuts. My 1st reaction
> was to check the boost settings,
and Brad had to readjust the settings,
> after which it disappeared. At
that time the exhaust was still stock.
>
> Coming back to your
other helpful hints:
> a. Can the situation cause engine damage, and is it
safe to drive the car?
> b. How can I check that the O2 sensor is hooked
up properly. Will the CD
> manual be of any help?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Joe '97 VR4
>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 07:42:52
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo spool up (was Engine Check Light remains on)
Thanks Curt, I
see what you are talking about.
You got 1.6 kg/cm2 (22.7 psi) out of
stock turbos and fuel system?
But we are of course agreeing. The
wastegates control boost, and your
Blitz controls the wastegates. An ideal
situation would be to have
instantaneous spool up of the turbos so that the
wastegates have even
better control of boost.
The fuel cut function of
the ECU is explained in the Stealth and
Laser/Talon Technical Information
Manuals. Fuel cut occurs under 2
circumstances: 1) when engine speed exceeds
7500 RPM, and 2) during
"overboost". Since the ECU does not measure boost,
"overboost" is
determined when the air mass flow divided by engine speed
exceeds a
certain value (not given in the manuals).
The way to
eliminate overboost, and your "quick spool up problem", is
to install larger
injectors and an AFC, ARC2, or VPC A/F controller.
All of these devices tell
the ECU that less air is flowing than
actual is flowing. I would bet that
with 550 cc/min injectors it
would be very difficult to get the ECU to
initiate fuel cut no matter
how fast boost increased.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To:
<
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 17, 2001 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine Check Light
remains on
Jeff,
Let me clarify my turbo spool-up comments, so
there is no confussion
for Joe. In my testing, the ECU will initate
fuel-cut, do to MAS
overrun, quicker if the turbos are spooling faster.
In other words
the faster at which the MAS is registering air flow
increasing, the
sooner fuel cut will be initated.
Here was my
test. One and a half years ago, after I installed water
injection, I
did some tests with my Blitz DSBC. The settings on the
Blitz allows you
to change your peak boost and the speed of the
turbos spooling up. On a
70 degree day, with the boost controller
set to spool up the fastest, (This
would be similiar to just pulling
off the wastegate hose) My Stealth would
hit fuel cut at around 1.3
kg/cm2. The Blitz has a peak hold function,
so it makes this testing
easier. As I slowed down the spool-up speed
with the Blitz, the peak
boost at which fuel cut was reached increased.
And at the lowest
setting, and a BOV that doesn't leak too bad, I was able to
hit a
whapping 1.6 kg/cm2.
And just for further note, I don't do these
kinds of experiments
often. And I don't recommend these experiments,
because it can be
harmful to your car's health. (and yours from having
the seatbelt
lock during fuel-cut) :-)
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org>From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
>To:
"Scholtz, Johann" <
Johann_Scholtz@bmc.com>
>CC:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
>Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 15:20:13
-0800 (PST)
>
>
>I don't think turbos can spool too fast.
We can only wish it could
be
>so. But wastegates may not open fast
enough or far enough to dump
the
>exhaust and so boost could get too
high or just gradually creep
up.
>
__________________________________________________
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Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:08:43
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Question regarding ball bearing
Hi Jim,
The most
interesting aspect of this kit to me is not the turbos
themselves but the
manifolds and housings. 1) The exhaust housings
replace the precats and yet
retain the O2 sensors and will bolt to
the stock-type DP. Very nice. 2) The
manifolds work with TD05, TD04L,
and IHI RHF turbos. Too nice! I wonder if
the SL Turbo/Kenson/Volvo
18T would bolt up? Mikael?
Here are Dons'
comments from this post (
http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=18633
)
"The manifolds were made for TD04L, TD05 and IHI Ball Bearing
Turbo
with no mod needed. The bolt patterns are the same for those
three
but they are different from the stock 9B." Don also posted
additional
pictures of these turbos and the kit.
TD05 turbos can be
very reasonably priced. For example, Team Rip
(TRE,
http://www.teamrip.com/Pricing.htm
) sells the basic
TD05-16G-7cm2 for only $625 each and the new TD05-18G-7cm2
for only
$950 each. They sell the TD05-20G-7cm2 for $1225, about the
same
price as OEM turbos or "GReddy"/"HKS" 13G sport turbos.
I think
there is one big catch though, the "common" TD05 exhaust
housings have a
4-bolt rectangular flange, while the TD04, IHI RHF,
and Japanese-spec TD05
exhaust housings have a 3-bolt triangular
flange, like the JUN manifolds. AAM
exhaust manifolds accept the
4-bolt "common" TD05 housings (like TRE sells).
Perhaps JUN could be
persuaded to make 4-bolt manifold flanges.
I am
not sure that the extra cost (which I am not sure what it is) of
IHI RHF
ball-bearing turbos would be worth it for the average
street
hot-rodder.
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
To: "Jeff Lucius"
<
stealthman92@yahoo.com>;
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, January 17, 2001 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Question regarding
ball bearing
Assuming the ball bearing turbos these guys are selling are
about
$600
more than the plain Jane TD05 turbos, is it worth the extra
money. As
I understand it the main claim to fame for the BB turbos are
the
improved spoolup time --- are there other benefits ???
He/they
also state that thay can make the manifolds out of steel or
stainless, I keep
hearing you guys badmouth stainless for the headers
- --- is some sort of
mild steel better for the headers or what is the
correct stainless to use
???
Jim
berry
=====================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
To:
<
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Hi Dave,
>
> I updated my turbo upgrade page to include this new
information.
>
>
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius2/j2-2-turboguide.htm>
> I corresponded with Don, the seller, about this turbo kit. See
the
> message below. I called JUN Motorsports and talked to Alex,
who
said
> Todd could better answer my questions next week when he
returns to
> the office. Unfortunately that will be after the bidding
closes.
You
> can visit the IHI site
http://www.ihi-turbo.com/ to get details
on
> the RHF55 turbos included in this kit. They are roughly
equivalent
to
> 17G or GT357 turbos. I had not heard of them used on
our cars
before.
>
> I very much like the exhaust housings that
replace the precats but
> retain the O2 fittings. Maybe the buyer would
let ATR, Buschur, or
> someone else 'copy" them? I am not sure stainless
is the best
> material for exhaust manifolds. I thought perhaps they were
chromed
> iron (like our rear one) or steel (like our front one). I
didn't
ask
> Don what the material was. Send him an email with your
questions
and
> take a look at my turbo upgrade web page.
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:12:28
-0600
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo spool up (was Engine Check Light remains on)
Hey
Jeff,
Thanks for explaining what the technical manuals say. Your #2
situation is
what I was calling MAS overrun. The 1.6 kg/cm2 peak, is
just that, a peak.
The little 9Bs can't hold that, or even 1.5
kg/cm2. In some other testing
on hot days, I've got my Stealth to peak
at 1.45 kg/cm2 without fuel cut,
but even with that it doesn't hold that
level of boost.
Your right about elimating the fuel cut. There is
one other way to elimate
the fuel-cut. HKS and others make a fuel cut
eliminator. But I'll wait
until my pocketbook is ready for bigger
injectors, pump and fuel controller.
;)
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org>From: Jeff
Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
>To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>Subject:
Team3S: Turbo spool up (was Engine Check Light remains on)
>Date: Thu, 18
Jan 2001 07:42:52 -0800 (PST)
>
>Thanks Curt, I see what you are
talking about.
>
>You got 1.6 kg/cm2 (22.7 psi) out of stock turbos
and fuel system?
>
>But we are of course agreeing. The wastegates
control boost, and your
>Blitz controls the wastegates. An ideal situation
would be to have
>instantaneous spool up of the turbos so that the
wastegates have even
>better control of boost.
>
>The fuel cut
function of the ECU is explained in the Stealth and
>Laser/Talon Technical
Information Manuals. Fuel cut occurs under 2
>circumstances: 1) when
engine speed exceeds 7500 RPM, and 2) during
>"overboost". Since the ECU
does not measure boost, "overboost" is
>determined when the air mass flow
divided by engine speed exceeds a
>certain value (not given in the
manuals).
>
>The way to eliminate overboost, and your "quick spool
up problem", is
>to install larger injectors and an AFC, ARC2, or VPC A/F
controller.
>All of these devices tell the ECU that less air is flowing
than
>actual is flowing. I would bet that with 550 cc/min injectors
it
>would be very difficult to get the ECU to initiate fuel cut no
matter
>how fast boost increased.
>
>Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com_________________________________________________________________
Get
your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:23:28
+0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo spool up (was Engine Check Light remains on)
>Thanks
for explaining what the technical manuals say. Your #2 situation
>is what I was calling MAS overrun. The 1.6 kg/cm2 peak, is just
that, a peak.
It is very important on what rpm this peak occurs as it is
easily possible
to get 1.3 bars at 3500rpm without any sign of knock before
the boost
limiter kicks in (too much gain on the DSBC)
>Your right
about elimating the fuel cut. There is one other way to
>elimate
the fuel-cut. HKS and others make a fuel cut
eliminator.
Unfortunately, they do not work in our cars. For example, the
HKS FCD is
simply said a voltage devider that tweaks the ECU thinking there
is still
low boost. This is done on the Supra, although they are running
into other
problems then :-)
What the manual doesn't tell is that FC
is also initiated after the ECU has
read more than a specific amount of
knock over a specific time. The ECU
jumps onto the emergency map for fuel
and ignition and limits rpm to 3000 !
This condition lets you limp home
without any power as the timing is
totally down and it takes some minutes of
driving without any knock until
the ECU frees up when it is started again.
The condition is shown with the
bad "check engine" light... don't ask why I
know this !
>But I'll wait until my pocketbook is ready for bigger
injectors, pump and
>fuel controller. ;)
Definitely the only way
to go. Of course, also an increasing rate fuel
pressure regulator may help
but I don't like to push more fue lthrough the
injectors than they are built
for.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 21:10:09
-0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Engine Check Light remains on
Are your plugs gapped down? I
ask because when I first put my BC and filter
on, I was too busy to change
the plugs. I drove around for two months
thinking my car was immune and
then it happened. I would get fuel cut
whenever I floored it and the
boost even got near 15psi. I changed the
plugs and regapped and this
only occurs in the winter when I spike to
1.2kg/cm2
sometimes.
Sam
>> c. Any idea where I can get
information about the settings of the boost
>> controller? I had
the case about 3 months ago where I had to leave the
>> car
>>
with NTB for a tire change. When I came to collect the car 5
hours
later,
>> nothing had been done about the tires. The breaks
and the engine were
>> flaming hot, the front mats on both side filthy
of grime of the shop
>> floor,
>> and the car parked on a
different spot. Confronting the shop manager, he
>> replied that
his people had his permission to test drive cars. I could
not
>> get
the maps clean and had to buy new ones ($110.00). What comes to mind
>>
now, is that a few days after that I also had fuel-cuts. My 1st
reaction
>> was to check the boost settings, and Brad had to readjust
the settings,
>> after which it disappeared. At that time the exhaust
was still stock.
>>
>> Coming back to your other helpful
hints:
>> a. Can the situation cause engine damage, and is it safe to
drive the
car?
>> b. How can I check that the O2 sensor is hooked up
properly. Will the CD
>> manual be of any
help?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe '97
VR4
>>
>> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
>
>*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#381
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