team3s            Sunday, December 10 2000            Volume 01 : Number 347




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:23:50 -0500
From: "Mihai Raicu" <aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Redline bad for Getrags ??

Everyone,

I'm not trying to fuel the fire that has ben going on, but I just wanted to
mention for those that are keeping track that my brother's 94 TT
transmission was changed within 3000 miles after he bought it under a 3
month/3000 mile dealer warranty.  Thant change happened at 48,000 miles.
The problem was: car would grind going into 1st and 3rd gears.

15,000 miles later, the transmission was replaced again at no cost to my
brother.  All of a sudden the transmission started making excessive noise
and rattling as if some metal chunks were bouncing around in there.  It was
noticeable mostly at idle and low speeds.  As the car would go faster, the
wind noise would overcome the NOISE from the transmission.  I think the
dealer (the same dealer that did the original trannnie work) replaced the
trannie since it was still close to the 12 month /12000 mile warranty they
give with replaced transmissions.  I guess they didn't have to replace it at
no charge, but they must have been afraid of something (their screwup, bad
replacement trannie, or the car locking up on my brother and having a
lawsuit on their hands...etc...all speculations of course).  One adition:
the car had Redline MTL in the transmission when it failed, if it matters to
anyone.  I'm not blaming the fluid, just stating all the facts.

So, what I know:
Car was probably sold due to it's transmission problem, oil was changed and
we did not notice anything wrong with the car when we testdrove it initially
(other than the fact that it was hard to find 3rd gear sometimes).  Two
transmissions were changed on this 94 TT: one @48K and one @ 53K.  Now my
brother is @ 68K with no problems so far.  It's true that neither him nor I
drive our TT and VR4 like grandmas.  We are both young and have a few mods
(K&N and Apexi AVC-R) to take the car close to 400HP (only recently--past
5000 miles).

I also agree with Chris Maxwell about what he said that this is not the most
accurate statistical representation of all the VR4/TT's produced having
problems with tha trannies.  However, it is accurate enough for our
purposes, in knowing that an estimated 90% of us have some mods on our cars
(~400 HP, although some have less and some considerably more).  Some do
track driving and the rest just street driving, but I do not think any of
the people on this list drive like grandmas.  If they did they wouldn't be
here.  So, al in all, seeing how many people had trannie problems on this
list (including my brother) is a good indication of how long a transmission
will last (of course with a few exceptions, my brother being one of them).

Later everyone.
- -MIKE-          aa2345@wayne.edu
95 Red VR4
Apexi AVC-R Electronic Boost Controller
K&N FIPK, Boost Gauge, EGT Meter

John, brother   iraicu@cs.wayne.edu
94 Pearl Yellow TT
Apexi AVC-R Electronic Boost Controller
K&N FIPK, Boost Gauge, EGT Meter
G Teck 0-60 (4.9 sec) 1/4 mile (13.34 sec @ 112.4 mph)
Top speed after mods 169 mph

Detroit Metro Area, Michigan


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:16:36 -0500
From: "Mihai Raicu" <aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: 18" Rims

Fred,

Sorry to hear about your mishap.  From your post it looks like you have a 95
Stealth TT, however I know for a fact that there are no stock 18" rims on
Stealths, only 17".  So, I'm going to assume you own a VR4 with stock 18"
chrome wheels.  The part # is MR 197761 and the size is 18" X 8.5".  Try
Conicelly Mitsubishi from PA (610-272-8504).  I just got a brand new 18"
Chrome rim for $526 after discount (mention 3SI).

It's my understanding that they answer e-mails faster than phonecals, but I
misplaced their e-mail.  Maybe someone else on the list can give you their
e-mail adress.  You have to try a few times on the phone before getting
someone.  Josh or Toni are both helpful.

If you are intrested in the used/refurbished rim option then here is a phone
number Ken Middaugh gave me:
>Check with Arrow Tire & Wheel, 800-884-4349 or 909-946-0244 for
>refurbished and used wheels.  (addition: I talked to BRIAN, cool guy, but
he wanted $400 for a refurb rim)

Below are some more phone numbrs I ran into as I was searching for used
rims:

- -DABAJA'S Tire, Dearborn Hts., Michigan -- Maher - 313-562-0090 rim from Rim
from CA, like new, so he says $350.00
- -Main Street Wheel and Tire, Michigan - John - 800-728-8300.  These guys can
find a rim for you if you want.  They also know Maher from DABAJA's.  If you
tell them you talked to Maher (Maher would probably get the rim from Main
Street Wheel and Tire), and then you talk to Main Street Wheel and Tire, you
might be able to get a reduction off the price since you are eliminating one
of the middle men (just a speculation).

I talked to all of the above companies.  I didn't think the price reduction
was worth the quality reduction.  I changed a good set of tires (Bridgestone
Ptenza RE711 with 15K of tread left to Falken FK-451 Y-186 mph rated tires)
just 2 days ago because of DRY ROT related cracks on the circumference of
the tires, and hence a worry of a tire failure.  That same worry applies to
rims also.  I changed it to a brand new one to have no wheel/tire related
worries.

If you follow the posts about 2-3 weeks back, a similar thing happened to
me.  I ran into a curb with the front passanger wheel.  I damaged the rim in
the process.  So, after listening to others on the list and much careful
consideration I decided to cover my own bill (no insurance claim).  As you
can see above, a new 18" rim cost me $526 and I also had my car checked for
a 4-wheel alignment.  That cost me $85 and now the car is within spec again.
By the way, the repair shop said the front was not knocked too much out of
position.  The rears were worst (not affected by curb).  In an exagerated
sense, the rear wheels looked like /\ (I don't want to look for the
definition of CAMBER and CASTER).  However my family has 1 TT, 1 VR4, and 1
SOHC Stealth.  All these cars exhibited the same /\ wheel offset on the back
(eats tires on the inside, especially RIGHT REAR).  My car has only 37000
miles and it showed that, not in tiree wear, but visible on the allignment
machine.  I just changed my tires, so I will probably do another 4 wheel
alignment after 25-30K when I do my next tire change.

Best of luck,

- -MIKE-          aa2345@wayne.edu
95 Red VR4
Apexi AVC-R Electronic Boost Controller
K&N FIPK, Boost Gauge, EGT Meter
G Teck 0-60 (4.9 sec) Top speed after mods 169 mph

Detroit Metro Area, Michigan

- -------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 20:43:09 -0500
From: "Fred Richardson" <rich@magma.ca>
Subject: Team3S: 18" Rims

Dear List;
    Just hit black ice at 30MPH and ran into a curb sideways on a curve.
Both the stock chrome 18's on the left side are toast. Insurance will
probably cover it , but I would like to know if anyone has any used ones for
sale. I am in Canada near Ottawa.

Fred,
'95 RT TT
#121


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:24:47 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 18" Rims

Mihai Raicu wrote:

> Fred,
>
> Sorry to hear about your mishap.  From your post it looks like you have a 95
> Stealth TT, however I know for a fact that there are no stock 18" rims on
> Stealths, only 17".  So, I'm going to assume you own a VR4 with stock 18"
> chrome wheels.

Guess you need to check your facts out a little harder. 95-96 they had 18"
wheels that were "Stealth specific" as an $4612 option...looky here:

http://www.linkline.com/personal/amahoser/trevor.html

Trevor
96 R/T TT
12.17@116.3
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:51:11 -0500
From: "Mihai Raicu" <aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 18" Rims

Trevor, Fred, Team 3SI,

Sorry about being misinformed.  From looking at Trevor's 96 Stealth TT, his
rims look just like mine.  With that in mind, the part number I gave out and
all the other info should still work for Fred.  It's all I have, so if
anyone has any more info, send it to the list for archiving purposes.

Later,

- -MIKE-          aa2345@wayne.edu
95 Red VR4
Apexi AVC-R Electronic Boost Controller
K&N FIPK, Boost Gauge, EGT Meter

Detroit Metro Area, Michigan

- -----Original Message-----
From: Trevor L. James [mailto:trevor@kscable.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:25 AM
To: aa2345@mail3.wayne.edu
Cc: rich@magma.ca; Stealth
Subject: Re: Team3S: 18" Rims

Guess you need to check your facts out a little harder. 95-96 they had 18"
wheels that were "Stealth specific" as an $4612 option...looky here:

http://www.linkline.com/personal/amahoser/trevor.html

Trevor
96 R/T TT
12.17@116.3
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:28:52 -0500
From: GREG RUSH <rush@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Who did the work on your turbos? Has anyone had THOMAS KNIGHT TURBOS do any work
for them? I sent my 9bs to him and he is going to machine them and upgrade them
to15c. Does any one know the difference between 15g and 15c? Which is better?
He gives a lifetime garantee and the cost is 1500 dollars.
Steve Cooper wrote:

> Hi all
>
> My 15G update
>
> Well they were sent back to the rebuilder.The front turbo snapped the shaft
> 1cm from the end.I found the shaft end and the nut.The rear turbo was very
> sloppy in the bearings,infact about 5mm sideplay,the fins had gouged the
> housings and the nut was the wrong way round.
> The good news is they will be rebuilt next week at no cost to me.
> I asked the rebuilder what had caused the failure & he still said surge.When
> asked about the rear turbo he said ha hadn't checked it yet.
> I see that clipping is recomended,mine were not clipped but they will be
> this time,don't know if thid is relevent.There are a lot of small splinters
> in the intake,these will hopefully be blown out tomorrow with compressed
> air.Personally I dont think they were put together properly.Thats all for
> now.
>
> Steve Cooper
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Cooper <scooper@paradise.net.nz>
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Date: Friday, 24 November 2000 03:29
> Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos
>
> >Hi again,
> >by the way, after sending my email last night  I went out and removed the
> >inlet pipe from the rear turbo, the nut is still on but there seems to be
> an
> >aweful lot of side play in the bearing, in fact enough so you can feel the
> >compressor blades rub on the the housing when rotated and pushed to the
> >side.
> >
> >Is this normal?
> >
> >I mentioned this to the turbo rebuilder and he said to send them both back
> >for checking over. He also said that 15G's are only suitable for 3000GT's
> if
> >you've had alot of headwork done, something to do with operating to close
> to
> >the surge region. What do the experts think about that??
> >
> >By the way the housings I think were TD04h
> >
> >Steve Cooper
> >http://www.nzgto.cjb.net
> >
> >P.S I WAS really looking foward to going to a big dragrace meet tomorrow, I
> >was going to deal to some big block Hemis, but I think now I'll have to go
> >and watch.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: COMETOTHEZOO@aol.com <COMETOTHEZOO@aol.com>
> >To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> >Date: Thursday, 23 November 2000 08:55
> >Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos
> >
> >
> >>Did you reset your aftermarket blow off valve? If the blow off valve does
> >not
> >>release pressure properly you will get compressor surge and that nut can
> >spin
> >>right off there. Which would damage the shaft as well while the compressor
> >is
> >>trying to suck the nut in. It is possible to have more damage in the
> engine
> >>as well, if any pieces were thrown through the intercooler and the
> throttle
> >>body.
> >>
> >>94 3000 VR4
> >>http://hometown.aol.com/cometothezoo/
> >>Mike Murray
> >>
> >>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> >>
> >
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:43:57 -0800
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S: observations

Hi Team;

Some casual observations for TT'ers;

1)  Brad's notion of having the Getrag parts replicated has to be something
which WILL occur sooner or later. Using/contacting  the company which
fabricated tranny parts for the Supra seems like a way to save a lot of
Monkey Motion for the group/individual who finally grabs this bull by the
horns. As this (so far unnamed) company is obviously knowledgeable and
skilled enough replicate quality parts for Toyota, they certainly could do a
similar thing for our unit. Perhaps Kormex should approach tand encourage
hem...is Kormex subscribed, and if not, why not.
2)    Susan, the "broken transfer case rod"  is likely reference to the
transfer case being broken/cracked (it occurs) and only a new transfer case
is required , unless one cannot be found  with a correct spline number to
match up to the tranny....only then would a tranny  be factored into the
equation as well. It may also be, only the xcase output shaft is shot, as
Jim has suggested, and consequently even less of an expense can be expected
if this is involved. Get a second "on the ground" opinion, and, contact
Kormex.
3)  Redline Shockproof Heavy in the transfer case (.29 of quart) is an
absolute suggested requirement to forestall early transfer case failure (for
either the components or the case). Having it in the rear end (differential)
is a matter of choice and one should insure that friction modifier is added
or your positraction may not work as it is supposed to. Insure in any
differential fluid change, whatever you use, that a friction modifier has
been preblended in it, or is added.
4) Redline products in the tranny have already been addressed in previous
posts as superior products with exception and controversy noted with  ATF
product.  BG Synchroshift has been touted as an alternate to these, and an
even better product than anything available. This, and the RSPH for the
xcase, are noted and recommended by Senior members of this forum who are
time tested 3S veterans. This is not so much a Team endorsement, but rather
a time saving suggestion, inasmuch as turbo owners by and large use Mobil 1
in the engine. Oh, another less expensive tranny product which I am
currently testing, and more readily available than BG Synchroshift, is GM
Syncromesh. Thus far it is proving  a smooth shifting dream, for any
interested.

Best

Darc


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:49:25 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

The 15C compressor wheel is less agreesive than the 15G.  The letter (C or
G) refers to the trim of the compressor wheel.  The C will boost a little
earlier but not produce as much peak pressure.  Although the difference
between the C and G may be noticable from a lag standpoint it is not a big
deal.  For the money, I'd suggest you consider going straight to the G trim.
I suppose it depends upon what you are after.

The 15G is a decent choice but frankly I would like larger turbos.  For a
more stock-ish vehicle, perhaps the 15Cs are a good compromise.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Who did the work on your turbos? Has anyone had THOMAS KNIGHT
> TURBOS do any work
> for them? I sent my 9bs to him and he is going to machine them
> and upgrade them
> to15c. Does any one know the difference between 15g and 15c?
> Which is better?
> He gives a lifetime garantee and the cost is 1500 dollars.
> Steve Cooper wrote:


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:24:15 -0500
From: GREG RUSH <rush@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

I am looking for aprox. 500hp. I have a new 4 bolt main with forged pistons that
have been coated with a thermal barier. Borla cat back and gutted precats.
Running about 15psi with 550 inj. and upgraded fuel pump[supra pump?] I think I
will use the VPC for fuel management.

"Barry E. King" wrote:

> The 15C compressor wheel is less agreesive than the 15G.  The letter (C or
> G) refers to the trim of the compressor wheel.  The C will boost a little
> earlier but not produce as much peak pressure.  Although the difference
> between the C and G may be noticable from a lag standpoint it is not a big
> deal.  For the money, I'd suggest you consider going straight to the G trim.
> I suppose it depends upon what you are after.
>
> The 15G is a decent choice but frankly I would like larger turbos.  For a
> more stock-ish vehicle, perhaps the 15Cs are a good compromise.
>
> Barry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > Who did the work on your turbos? Has anyone had THOMAS KNIGHT
> > TURBOS do any work
> > for them? I sent my 9bs to him and he is going to machine them
> > and upgrade them
> > to15c. Does any one know the difference between 15g and 15c?
> > Which is better?
> > He gives a lifetime garantee and the cost is 1500 dollars.
> > Steve Cooper wrote:
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:40:44 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Go for the 15Gs, no question.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I am looking for aprox. 500hp. I have a new 4 bolt main with
> forged pistons that
> have been coated with a thermal barier. Borla cat back and gutted precats.
> Running about 15psi with 550 inj. and upgraded fuel pump[supra
> pump?] I think I
> will use the VPC for fuel management.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:49:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Lifetime guarantee on a turbo?

Sounds shady..thats the last thing you'd out a lifetime warranty on.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, GREG RUSH wrote:

> Who did the work on your turbos? Has anyone had THOMAS KNIGHT TURBOS do any work
> for them? I sent my 9bs to him and he is going to machine them and upgrade them
> to15c. Does any one know the difference between 15g and 15c? Which is better?
> He gives a lifetime garantee and the cost is 1500 dollars.
> Steve Cooper wrote:
>
> > Hi all
> >
> > My 15G update
> >
> > Well they were sent back to the rebuilder.The front turbo snapped the shaft
> > 1cm from the end.I found the shaft end and the nut.The rear turbo was very
> > sloppy in the bearings,infact about 5mm sideplay,the fins had gouged the
> > housings and the nut was the wrong way round.
> > The good news is they will be rebuilt next week at no cost to me.
> > I asked the rebuilder what had caused the failure & he still said surge.When
> > asked about the rear turbo he said ha hadn't checked it yet.
> > I see that clipping is recomended,mine were not clipped but they will be
> > this time,don't know if thid is relevent.There are a lot of small splinters
> > in the intake,these will hopefully be blown out tomorrow with compressed
> > air.Personally I dont think they were put together properly.Thats all for
> > now.
> >
> > Steve Cooper
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Cooper <scooper@paradise.net.nz>
> > To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> > Date: Friday, 24 November 2000 03:29
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos
> >
> > >Hi again,
> > >by the way, after sending my email last night  I went out and removed the
> > >inlet pipe from the rear turbo, the nut is still on but there seems to be
> > an
> > >aweful lot of side play in the bearing, in fact enough so you can feel the
> > >compressor blades rub on the the housing when rotated and pushed to the
> > >side.
> > >
> > >Is this normal?
> > >
> > >I mentioned this to the turbo rebuilder and he said to send them both back
> > >for checking over. He also said that 15G's are only suitable for 3000GT's
> > if
> > >you've had alot of headwork done, something to do with operating to close
> > to
> > >the surge region. What do the experts think about that??
> > >
> > >By the way the housings I think were TD04h
> > >
> > >Steve Cooper
> > >http://www.nzgto.cjb.net
> > >
> > >P.S I WAS really looking foward to going to a big dragrace meet tomorrow, I
> > >was going to deal to some big block Hemis, but I think now I'll have to go
> > >and watch.
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: COMETOTHEZOO@aol.com <COMETOTHEZOO@aol.com>
> > >To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> > >Date: Thursday, 23 November 2000 08:55
> > >Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos
> > >
> > >
> > >>Did you reset your aftermarket blow off valve? If the blow off valve does
> > >not
> > >>release pressure properly you will get compressor surge and that nut can
> > >spin
> > >>right off there. Which would damage the shaft as well while the compressor
> > >is
> > >>trying to suck the nut in. It is possible to have more damage in the
> > engine
> > >>as well, if any pieces were thrown through the intercooler and the
> > throttle
> > >>body.
> > >>
> > >>94 3000 VR4
> > >>http://hometown.aol.com/cometothezoo/
> > >>Mike Murray
> > >>
> > >>***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:51:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Id imagine 500Hp on 550s is cutting it rather thin as well.

??


On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:

> Go for the 15Gs, no question.
>
>
> Barry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > I am looking for aprox. 500hp. I have a new 4 bolt main with
> > forged pistons that
> > have been coated with a thermal barier. Borla cat back and gutted precats.
> > Running about 15psi with 550 inj. and upgraded fuel pump[supra
> > pump?] I think I
> > will use the VPC for fuel management.
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:21 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

With 550cc injectors, yeah I'd agree with that.  IMO 720's are they way to
go with 15Gs, which is what is in my '94.  However, the VPC isn't going to
work well with 720s without a reprogrammed chip, so that would be an issue.
I have been the 15G/550cc route and they are not adequate for high boost,
but *might* be okay for 15 psi max.  But 21+ is so much more fun and is
where the car really wakes up.

The Supra pump should be fine depending upon which one it is of course.  The
Japanese Mazda Cosmo pump if you can get one is (supposedly) the biggest
pump ND makes in the drop-in replacement category.  A better regulator would
be a good idea, a rising rate unit woul be even better.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Id imagine 500Hp on 550s is cutting it rather thin as well.
>
> ??
>
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:
>
> > Go for the 15Gs, no question.
> >
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > I am looking for aprox. 500hp. I have a new 4 bolt main with
> > > forged pistons that
> > > have been coated with a thermal barier. Borla cat back and
> gutted precats.
> > > Running about 15psi with 550 inj. and upgraded fuel pump[supra
> > > pump?] I think I
> > > will use the VPC for fuel management.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:04:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Im starting with 15Gs paired with 900cc injectors.

Will work a larger turbo/manifold package later in the year.  Just wanna
get running for now *grin*.

Also on a standalone DFI ECU as well, and compression raised to about 9:1.
Should be running at a comfortable 17-18psi max for the 600Hp were
shooting for.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:

> With 550cc injectors, yeah I'd agree with that.  IMO 720's are they way to
> go with 15Gs, which is what is in my '94.  However, the VPC isn't going to
> work well with 720s without a reprogrammed chip, so that would be an issue.
> I have been the 15G/550cc route and they are not adequate for high boost,
> but *might* be okay for 15 psi max.  But 21+ is so much more fun and is
> where the car really wakes up.
>
> The Supra pump should be fine depending upon which one it is of course.  The
> Japanese Mazda Cosmo pump if you can get one is (supposedly) the biggest
> pump ND makes in the drop-in replacement category.  A better regulator would
> be a good idea, a rising rate unit woul be even better.
>
>
> Barry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > Id imagine 500Hp on 550s is cutting it rather thin as well.
> >
> > ??
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:
> >
> > > Go for the 15Gs, no question.
> > >
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > I am looking for aprox. 500hp. I have a new 4 bolt main with
> > > > forged pistons that
> > > > have been coated with a thermal barier. Borla cat back and
> > gutted precats.
> > > > Running about 15psi with 550 inj. and upgraded fuel pump[supra
> > > > pump?] I think I
> > > > will use the VPC for fuel management.
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:17:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

It depends on location also. Here in Colorado with 15Gs, lots of
mods, and up to 18 psi boost, my 550s run at less than 70% IDC (TMO
logger on my '92 TT) with minimal knock (no WI). Just about ideal.

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

With 550cc injectors, yeah I'd agree with that.  IMO 720's are they
way to go with 15Gs, which is what is in my '94. 
<snip>
Barry


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:30:44 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

There will be lots of headroom with 900cc injectors - a good thing.

I considered bumping the compression up from 8:1 to something else but
decided against it.  It is actually around 8.3:1 (static) now due to the
combustion chamber reworking, piston design and decking that was done on the
block and head.

Have you calculated the cylinder pressures with that CR and those boost
values?  Based on my (albeit amateur) calculations, something closer to 8:1
seemed ideal based on the flow of the heads (my post-reqork numbers, not
stock) and all the other rot.  It'll be interesting to see how well this
configuration works out.

The DFI ECU will definitely be a big plus.  I really want a combination
ignition computer/knock detector.  I have designed (but not built) the
former, but the latter is beyond my means to do it correctly.  I am very
happy with my TRE MASC/huge airmeter combo, but a "real" replacement
computer would definitely be better.

What are you using for an airmeter, or are you converting to speed/density?


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Im starting with 15Gs paired with 900cc injectors.
>
> Will work a larger turbo/manifold package later in the year.  Just wanna
> get running for now *grin*.
>
> Also on a standalone DFI ECU as well, and compression raised to about 9:1.
> Should be running at a comfortable 17-18psi max for the 600Hp were
> shooting for.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:55:03 -0800
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S: observations

Hi Team;

Some casual observations (from the digest) for TT'ers;

1)  Brad's notion of having the Getrag parts replicated has to be something
which WILL occur sooner or later. Using/contacting  the company which
fabricated the tranny parts for the Supra seems like a way to save a lot of
Monkey Motion for the group/individual who finally grabs this bull by the
horns. As this (so far unnamed) company is obviously knowledgeable and
skilled enough replicate quality parts for Toyota, they certainly could do a
similar thing for our unit. Perhaps Kormex should approach and encourage
them......is Kormex subscribed, and if not, why not? It's in their best
interest.
2)    Susan, the "broken transfer case rod"  is likely reference to the
transfer case being broken/cracked (it occurs) and only a new transfer case
is required , unless one cannot be found  with a correct spline number to
match  to the tranny....only then would a tranny  be factored into the
equation as well. It may also be, that only the xcase output shaft is shot,
as Jim has suggested, and consequently even less of an expense can be
expected if this is involved. Get a second "on the ground" opinion, and,
contact Kormex.
3)  Redline Shock Proof Heavy in the transfer case (.29 of quart) is an
absolute suggested requirement to forestall early transfer case failure (for
either the inner components or the case). Having RSPH in the rear end
(differential) is a matter of choice and one should insure that friction
modifier is added or your positraction may not work as it is supposed to.
Insure in any differential fluid change, whatever you use, that a friction
modifier is in the preblend, or is added.
4) Redline products in the tranny have already been addressed in previous
posts as superior products with exception and controversy noted with  ATF
product.  BG Synchroshift has been touted as an alternate to these, and an
even better product than anything available. This, and the RSPH for the
xcase, are noted and recommended by Senior members of this forum who are
time tested 3S veterans. This is not so much a Team endorsement, but rather
a time saving suggestion, inasmuch as turbo owners by and large concur to
the use of Mobil 1 in the engine. Oh, another less expensive tranny product
which I am currently testing, and more readily available than BG
Synchroshift, is GM Syncromesh. Thus far it is proving  a smooth shifting
dream, for any who might be interested.

Best

Darc



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:06:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Yep..conversion.  Should make tremendous torque.

Shame the car wont be able to launch for shit thl *grin*

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:

> There will be lots of headroom with 900cc injectors - a good thing.
>
> I considered bumping the compression up from 8:1 to something else but
> decided against it.  It is actually around 8.3:1 (static) now due to the
> combustion chamber reworking, piston design and decking that was done on the
> block and head.
>
> Have you calculated the cylinder pressures with that CR and those boost
> values?  Based on my (albeit amateur) calculations, something closer to 8:1
> seemed ideal based on the flow of the heads (my post-reqork numbers, not
> stock) and all the other rot.  It'll be interesting to see how well this
> configuration works out.
>
> The DFI ECU will definitely be a big plus.  I really want a combination
> ignition computer/knock detector.  I have designed (but not built) the
> former, but the latter is beyond my means to do it correctly.  I am very
> happy with my TRE MASC/huge airmeter combo, but a "real" replacement
> computer would definitely be better.
>
> What are you using for an airmeter, or are you converting to speed/density?
>
>
> Barry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > Im starting with 15Gs paired with 900cc injectors.
> >
> > Will work a larger turbo/manifold package later in the year.  Just wanna
> > get running for now *grin*.
> >
> > Also on a standalone DFI ECU as well, and compression raised to about 9:1.
> > Should be running at a comfortable 17-18psi max for the 600Hp were
> > shooting for.
>
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:43:42 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

You guys are nuts...900's! Aren't we going a little overboard here?!?! Those
puppies would be good for about 841HP@86% duty cycle. Judging by Jack's 1/4 mile
times I don't think he's ever made more than 670HP. Of course, if he's using 720's
that could be the limiting factor. The math for that works out about right. 900's
just sound like over kill to me. I always like how everyone tries to sell newbies
on these huge injectors when they're not really necessary. 550's aren't good for
anything over 15psi? What kind of dribble is that! I maintain .94-.96V O2's when
running 20-21psi with my 550's. Fat as h@ll, all the way to redline. 550's are
good for 500HP at 84%. Perfectly fine for your application Greg. Easier to fine
tune too...

Trevor
96 R/T TT
12.17@116.3
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4

Geoff Mohler wrote:

> Im starting with 15Gs paired with 900cc injectors.
>
> Will work a larger turbo/manifold package later in the year.  Just wanna
> get running for now *grin*.
>
> Also on a standalone DFI ECU as well, and compression raised to about 9:1.
> Should be running at a comfortable 17-18psi max for the 600Hp were
> shooting for.
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:
>
> > With 550cc injectors, yeah I'd agree with that.  IMO 720's are they way to
> > go with 15Gs, which is what is in my '94.  However, the VPC isn't going to
> > work well with 720s without a reprogrammed chip, so that would be an issue.
> > I have been the 15G/550cc route and they are not adequate for high boost,
> > but *might* be okay for 15 psi max.  But 21+ is so much more fun and is
> > where the car really wakes up.
> >
> > The Supra pump should be fine depending upon which one it is of course.  The
> > Japanese Mazda Cosmo pump if you can get one is (supposedly) the biggest
> > pump ND makes in the drop-in replacement category.  A better regulator would
> > be a good idea, a rising rate unit woul be even better.
> >
> >
> > Barry


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:48:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Trevor L. James wrote:

> You guys are nuts...900's! Aren't we going a little overboard here?!?!
- ---

No.  Are you just not shooting for a high enough goal? *grin*

> puppies would be good for about 841HP@86% duty cycle. Judging by Jack's
> 1/4 mile  times I don't think he's ever made more than 670HP. Of course,
> if he's using 720's
> that could be the limiting factor. The math for that works out about right. 900's
> just sound like over kill to me. I always like how everyone tries to sell newbies
> on these huge injectors when they're not really necessary. 550's aren't good for
> anything over 15psi? What kind of dribble is that! I maintain .94-.96V O2's when
> running 20-21psi with my 550's. Fat as h@ll, all the way to redline. 550's are
> good for 500HP at 84%. Perfectly fine for your application Greg. Easier to fine
> tune too...
- ---

I didnt say 550s werent any good, just that with 15Gs a larger injector
should be considered..theres no good reason -not- to.  Overhead is good.

And..our car isnt being built for Dragging, so where we're wanting to end
up is totally different, and requires a different mindset in functionality
and performance.  900's are just fine for what we're eventually going to
be doing in about 6 months.

Its a shame the car wont be able to launch worth a darn..or we'd have a
VR4 in the low 10s W/O gas.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:16:48 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Can 550s work?  Sure, with caveats.  However 550s are too small for moderate
to serious boost.  720s are just about perfect and (within limits) can
accommodate the recommended 20% IDC headroom.   This is hardly dribble.  I
suggest anyone who is disbelieving do the actual research and the math.

900s are, well, Geoff's choice.  ;)  Besides, he's hinting at a redesigned
intake solution which will dramatically affect the choice of injector.

Although I cannot say for a fact, were I a betting individual I'd say Jack
is using 720s.  The hypothetical 670 HP number would be extremely dificult
to achieve on 550cc injectors with or without nitrous oxide.

As to tunability, I disagree that 550s are going to be easier to tune in a
high horsepower situation.  They will exhibit inconsistent behavior at the
limits of their operation and can lead to melt-down if pushed too hard.  For
serious HP, 720s or better are the ticket.  For milder power, stick with
550s and be content.

As to the accuracy and even usability of OEM EGOs as an absolute indication
of mixture, well, they are at best an indication and really don't mean much.
This is well documented to death elsewhere.  If you're using a UEGO maybe
the values are useful.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> You guys are nuts...900's! Aren't we going a little overboard
> here?!?! Those
> puppies would be good for about 841HP@86% duty cycle. Judging by
> Jack's 1/4 mile
> times I don't think he's ever made more than 670HP. Of course, if
> he's using 720's
> that could be the limiting factor. The math for that works out
> about right. 900's
> just sound like over kill to me. I always like how everyone tries
> to sell newbies
> on these huge injectors when they're not really necessary. 550's
> aren't good for
> anything over 15psi? What kind of dribble is that! I maintain
> .94-.96V O2's when
> running 20-21psi with my 550's. Fat as h@ll, all the way to
> redline. 550's are
> good for 500HP at 84%. Perfectly fine for your application Greg.
> Easier to fine
> tune too...
>
> Trevor
> 96 R/T TT
> 12.17@116.3
> 92 GMC Typhoon
> 13.96@96.4
>
> Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> > Im starting with 15Gs paired with 900cc injectors.
> >
> > Will work a larger turbo/manifold package later in the year.  Just wanna
> > get running for now *grin*.
> >
> > Also on a standalone DFI ECU as well, and compression raised to
> about 9:1.
> > Should be running at a comfortable 17-18psi max for the 600Hp were
> > shooting for.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Barry E. King wrote:
> >
> > > With 550cc injectors, yeah I'd agree with that.  IMO 720's
> are they way to
> > > go with 15Gs, which is what is in my '94.  However, the VPC
> isn't going to
> > > work well with 720s without a reprogrammed chip, so that
> would be an issue.
> > > I have been the 15G/550cc route and they are not adequate for
> high boost,
> > > but *might* be okay for 15 psi max.  But 21+ is so much more
> fun and is
> > > where the car really wakes up.
> > >
> > > The Supra pump should be fine depending upon which one it is
> of course.  The
> > > Japanese Mazda Cosmo pump if you can get one is (supposedly)
> the biggest
> > > pump ND makes in the drop-in replacement category.  A better
> regulator would
> > > be a good idea, a rising rate unit woul be even better.
> > >
> > >
> > > Barry
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:52:58 -0600
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 18" Rims

95-96 Stealth R/T optional 18" chrome wheels are 5 spoke.  95-99 VR-4 18"
chrome wheels are 6 spoke.  Mitsubishi dealers do not sell the Stealth
wheels.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mihai Raicu" <aa2345@wayne.edu>
To: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Cc: "Stealth" <team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st>; <rich@magma.ca>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: 18" Rims


> Trevor, Fred, Team 3SI,
>
> Sorry about being misinformed.  From looking at Trevor's 96 Stealth TT,
his
> rims look just like mine.  With that in mind, the part number I gave out
and
> all the other info should still work for Fred.  It's all I have, so if
> anyone has any more info, send it to the list for archiving purposes.
>
> Later,
>
> -MIKE-          aa2345@wayne.edu
> 95 Red VR4
> Apexi AVC-R Electronic Boost Controller
> K&N FIPK, Boost Gauge, EGT Meter
>
> Detroit Metro Area, Michigan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trevor L. James [mailto:trevor@kscable.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:25 AM
> To: aa2345@mail3.wayne.edu
> Cc: rich@magma.ca; Stealth
> Subject: Re: Team3S: 18" Rims
>
> Guess you need to check your facts out a little harder. 95-96 they had 18"
> wheels that were "Stealth specific" as an $4612 option...looky here:
>
> http://www.linkline.com/personal/amahoser/trevor.html
>
> Trevor
> 96 R/T TT
> 12.17@116.3
> 92 GMC Typhoon
> 13.96@96.4
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:06:33 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

"Barry E. King" wrote:

> However 550s are too small for moderate
> to serious boost.

Yeah 550's suck. That's why the Supra can make 550-567RWHP with it's stock 550's
(No N2O). The owner of this place has a MKIII Supra with 110K on it that has
567RWHP with 550's. Full interior/daily driveable...
http://www.sound-performance.com/
I believe Adam Weltz had 550's when he ran his 11.25@125. How about Jack's old
car? Yeah, I believe he had 550's also when he ran 11.3@122.5. That's the 2nd
and 3rd quickest 3/S's in the states EVER. I'm pretty sure they were both
limited to the 550's because that's the largest the VPC supported at the time.
550's are quite alot of injector. Especially when we have a hard enough time
maxing out 550's without breaking something. I have only heard of one car
actually taxing a set of 720's; Jack's new 11.21 car. Other than that it seems
like alot of people buy them for no reason other than to have a huge cushion
that they'll never use. Just my opinion....

On a side note, you imply that anything over 80% will grenade your engine.
Before I upgraded my fuel system I ran 400HP for about a year with the stock
360's. That's well over 80%! Zero problems and I was running
12.6-12.7@107.2-108.4 on 91 octane. RC Engineering won't sell any injector
unless it does 85% with no metering anomalies. Most disc type injectors (like
the Lucas brand 550's RC sells) actually go 92% without any problems though.
http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonictech/fuel_injectors/RCtech.html

Trev
96 R/T TT
12.17@116.3
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:10:14 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Almost forgot. That MKIII Supra that Sound Performance has runs 11.4@128.

"Trevor L. James" wrote:

> "Barry E. King" wrote:
>
> > However 550s are too small for moderate
> > to serious boost.
>
> Yeah 550's suck. That's why the Supra can make 550-567RWHP with it's stock 550's
> (No N2O). The owner of this place has a MKIII Supra with 110K on it that has
> 567RWHP with 550's. Full interior/daily driveable...
> http://www.sound-performance.com/
> I believe Adam Weltz had 550's when he ran his 11.25@125. How about Jack's old
> car? Yeah, I believe he had 550's also when he ran 11.3@122.5. That's the 2nd
> and 3rd quickest 3/S's in the states EVER. I'm pretty sure they were both
> limited to the 550's because that's the largest the VPC supported at the time.
> 550's are quite alot of injector. Especially when we have a hard enough time
> maxing out 550's without breaking something. I have only heard of one car
> actually taxing a set of 720's; Jack's new 11.21 car. Other than that it seems
> like alot of people buy them for no reason other than to have a huge cushion
> that they'll never use. Just my opinion....
>
> On a side note, you imply that anything over 80% will grenade your engine.
> Before I upgraded my fuel system I ran 400HP for about a year with the stock
> 360's. That's well over 80%! Zero problems and I was running
> 12.6-12.7@107.2-108.4 on 91 octane. RC Engineering won't sell any injector
> unless it does 85% with no metering anomalies. Most disc type injectors (like
> the Lucas brand 550's RC sells) actually go 92% without any problems though.
> http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonictech/fuel_injectors/RCtech.html
>
> Trev
> 96 R/T TT
> 12.17@116.3
> 92 GMC Typhoon
> 13.96@96.4
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:22:04 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

I bought a set of used 550s and Alamo intercoolers, both with 4,000 miles
on 'em. Next is a Blitz DSBC and a Spearco water injection system. I have a
K&N. I'm planning a downpipe and a catback. What else will I need with the
550 injectors? Better fuel pump? Some sort of "device" to modify the mass
air signal going to the ECU (as Jeff Lucius suggests)? What kind of
"device" would that be?

I am not seeking quarter mile times -- instead, I am looking for safe,
continuous running at 15 psi on a road course.

Rich/old poop 94 VR4 stock engine w/K&N

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:21:41 -0600
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

> I bought a set of used 550s and Alamo intercoolers, both
> with 4,000 miles on 'em. Next is a Blitz DSBC and a
> Spearco water injection system. I have a K&N. I'm
> planning a downpipe and a catback. What else will I
> need with the 550 injectors? Better fuel pump? Some sort
> of "device" to modify the mass air signal going to the
> ECU (as Jeff Lucius suggests)? What kind of "device"
> would that be?

Yup, you'll need something to trick the ECU into delivering the correct
amount of fuel with the larger injectors.  With 550's there are a number of
choices, all with their own benefits and drawbacks.  You'll certainly want
to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm using the
last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it bolted
right in.  About $180.

For fuel control, you need something like the ARC2, VPC, Super-AFC or the
like.  The benefit of the ARC2 is that it also upgrades the MAF into a
hotwire-style flow meter which should be much less restriction in the intake
path than the stock karman-vortex setup.  ARC2 also doesn't use chips to set
injector size, so if you change injectors in the future you just twiddle the
knobs and you are all set again.

VPC is good also because it eliminates the stock airflow meter, and actually
provides NO restriction to the intake path since it has no MAF, but rather
calculates based on intake temperature and pressure (as far as I know - I
haven't owned one).  Supposedly idle can be a little off on the VPC, but it
has a few knobs to fine tune to some extent.

Super-AFC is decent up to 550cc injectors.  Supposedly it doesn't have
enough adjustment range for larger injectors to work well.  It preserves the
factory MAF and makes changes based on RPM ranges and percentage
corrections.  It should preserve near-factory idle, and it has a lot of
eye-candy goodies on the display.  It is also relatively inexpensive
compared to the other two solutions.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:38:59 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

> You'll certainly want
>to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm using the
>last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it bolted
>right in.  About $180.

Just walk into a local Toyota dealer and ask for a Supra fuel pump?
Is there a year or model number?

>
>For fuel control, you need something like the ARC2, VPC, Super-AFC or the
>like.

What are these devices.?

 The benefit of the ARC2 is that it also upgrades the MAF into a
>hotwire-style flow meter which should be much less restriction in the intake
>path than the stock karman-vortex setup.  ARC2 also doesn't use chips to set
>injector size, so if you change injectors in the future you just twiddle the
>knobs and you are all set again.

Where do you buy something like this? How much?

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:00:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

> On a side note, you imply that anything over 80% will grenade your engine.
> Before I upgraded my fuel system I ran 400HP for about a year with the stock
> 360's. That's well over 80%! Zero problems and I was running
- ---

Your injectors, your motor...and you get to own all the pieces.

Study injector design before you attempt to claim high duty-rates are
acceptable.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:02:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

> Just walk into a local Toyota dealer and ask for a Supra fuel pump?
> Is there a year or model number?
- ---

Yep, 93--xx is what you want.


> What are these devices.?
- ---

replacements to the AFM
 


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:23:43 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

>> What are these devices.?
>---
>
>replacements to the AFM

Air-fuel meter? monitor?

Where do you get them? How much do they cost?
 can't imagine walking into local Pep Boys or ordering it from JC Whitney.

Rich/old poop

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:56:17 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Go here:

http://splitsec.com/


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> >> What are these devices.?
> >---
> >
> >replacements to the AFM
>
> Air-fuel meter? monitor?
>
> Where do you get them? How much do they cost?
>  can't imagine walking into local Pep Boys or ordering it from JC
> Whitney.
>
> Rich/old poop


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:56:41 -0600
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Supra Twin turbo fuel pump.   Part#  23221-46110

Check with www.gtpro.com on the ARC unit.   Cost is around 1100.00 I think
This unit uses a ford throttle body.

VPC can be found for ~850.00 retail.  Assuming they are in stock anywhere.
This item is by HKS.  It converts the MAF to a MAP.(manifold air pressure)



Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#  3612682

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
[mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On Behalf Of Merritt
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 5:39 PM
To: Jannusch, Matt; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

> You'll certainly want
>to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm using the
>last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it bolted
>right in.  About $180.

Just walk into a local Toyota dealer and ask for a Supra fuel pump?
Is there a year or model number?

>
>For fuel control, you need something like the ARC2, VPC, Super-AFC or the
>like.

What are these devices.?

 The benefit of the ARC2 is that it also upgrades the MAF into a
>hotwire-style flow meter which should be much less restriction in the
intake
>path than the stock karman-vortex setup.  ARC2 also doesn't use chips to
set
>injector size, so if you change injectors in the future you just twiddle
the
>knobs and you are all set again.

Where do you buy something like this? How much?

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of team3s V1 #347
*********************

team3s            Monday, December 11 2000            Volume 01 : Number 348




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:09:44 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

At 06:56 PM 12/10/00 -0600, Brad Bedell wrote:
>Supra Twin turbo fuel pump.   Part#  23221-46110

Thanks.
>
>Check with www.gtpro.com on the ARC unit.   Cost is around 1100.00 I think
>This unit uses a ford throttle body.
>
>VPC can be found for ~850.00 retail.  Assuming they are in stock anywhere.
>This item is by HKS.  It converts the MAF to a MAP.(manifold air pressure)
>
Holy shit! That's outrageous! What happens if I put in the 550 injectors
and DON'T install an ARC or VPC?

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:26:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

Rich,

You should just roam around through my web site for answers to all
these questions and many, many more. :) You'll have fun with 550s and
the related upgrades. Maybe you can even help me out (comments and
corrections) with some of my pages like my recently updated Brake
Upgrade Guide.

http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius2/j2-2-brakeupgrade.htm

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>;
<team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update


> You'll certainly want
>to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm
using the
>last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it
bolted
>right in.  About $180.

Just walk into a local Toyota dealer and ask for a Supra fuel pump?
Is there a year or model number?

>
>For fuel control, you need something like the ARC2, VPC, Super-AFC
or the
>like.

What are these devices.?

 The benefit of the ARC2 is that it also upgrades the MAF into a
>hotwire-style flow meter which should be much less restriction in
the intake
>path than the stock karman-vortex setup.  ARC2 also doesn't use
chips to set
>injector size, so if you change injectors in the future you just
twiddle the
>knobs and you are all set again.

Where do you buy something like this? How much?

Rich


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:11:18 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Does this sound like a plausible upgrade path?

1. Install the Alamo intercoolers (I can do this myself)
2. Obtain a Blitz DSBC and a Spearco water injection kit, drive up to
Minneapolis, buy a case of Moose Drool, and have Curt and Oskar install
them (the Blitz and Spearco, not the beer. We'll DRINK the beer).
3. Purchase an ARC2 (ouch!) and take the car somewhere to somebody who
knows WTF they are doing and have the 550cc injectors and ARC2 installed
and everything tuned and adjusted. Where that might be I dunno yet, but
I'll find somebody within driving distance (there's a Mitsu tuning shop
opening up in Indiana that I can get to).

Would this work? Is there some unknown relationship between the Blitz and
the ARC2 I should know about? Should I get something other than the Blitz?

With luck, I can get all this done by Spring. Maybe I can surprise some of
those TT Porsches and Vipers.

Rich/old poop



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:26:14 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

That seems like a reasonable approach.

There is no magical interaction between the boost controller and the fuel
controller.  More air means more fuel which means you have to tune the ARC
for whatever boost levels you are running.  This isn't specific to the DSBC
and the ARC.

Buschur is in NoWhere Ohio.  http://www.buschurracing.com/  He'll be able to
get you started and show you how to tune (for a price of course).  Pretty
sure he sold his VR4 a while back.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Does this sound like a plausible upgrade path?
>
> 1. Install the Alamo intercoolers (I can do this myself)
> 2. Obtain a Blitz DSBC and a Spearco water injection kit, drive up to
> Minneapolis, buy a case of Moose Drool, and have Curt and Oskar install
> them (the Blitz and Spearco, not the beer. We'll DRINK the beer).
> 3. Purchase an ARC2 (ouch!) and take the car somewhere to somebody who
> knows WTF they are doing and have the 550cc injectors and ARC2 installed
> and everything tuned and adjusted. Where that might be I dunno yet, but
> I'll find somebody within driving distance (there's a Mitsu tuning shop
> opening up in Indiana that I can get to).
>
> Would this work? Is there some unknown relationship between the Blitz and
> the ARC2 I should know about? Should I get something other than the Blitz?
>
> With luck, I can get all this done by Spring. Maybe I can surprise some of
> those TT Porsches and Vipers.
>
> Rich/old poop
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:43:19 -0600
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update/ Merrit's upgrade path

If you are doing the ARC2, I'd look at an injector that is in the 600-650cc
range.  They are just a little larger than the 550's which have proven to be
too small on some of the more efficient motors.  This will also give you a
little overhead to keep the injector drivers cooler.  I know I was running
out of fuel on a 1000' wide open run.   Barry was out of fuel on his 550's.
Jack also went 720's to help lower EGT's on the straights.     While higher
EGT's are okay on a drag strip due to short exposure, the repeated on/off
throttle will surely heat things up on the 3000.

Also look into wiring a relay to get a full 13.8 volts to the fuel pump.
This will increase the fuel delivery on the higher demand occasions.
A "really" slick person might hook up an RPM switch to the relay so that you
get the 13.8 volts after ~3500rpm.     This would keep fuel pressure down at
lower RPM's and raise it just a touch at the higher RPMs

You can find instructions on www.roadraceengineering.com.  It will show you
how to add the fuel pump mod to the eclipse.   Just print the instructions
and change all the "eclipse" words to "3000" words and you should have no
problems :)  You're on your own with an RPM switch.


Another thing to look at on the pre-cats and o2 housings is to have them
welded up on the outside of the flange, and gasket match to the gaskets.
You will gain nearly 1/4" at the downpipe mating surface if you do this.

While you're at it, clean up the exhaust manifold welds a bit.

www.swaintech.com  The link isn't working, but do a search on Swain Coatings
and you're sure to find something about the company.    They do a great job
ceramic coating items.


Rich, what year is your car?

Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#  3612682

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
[mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On Behalf Of Merritt
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 8:11 PM
To: Brad Bedell; team3S@stealth-3000gt.st; Barry E. King
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Does this sound like a plausible upgrade path?

1. Install the Alamo intercoolers (I can do this myself)
2. Obtain a Blitz DSBC and a Spearco water injection kit, drive up to
Minneapolis, buy a case of Moose Drool, and have Curt and Oskar install
them (the Blitz and Spearco, not the beer. We'll DRINK the beer).
3. Purchase an ARC2 (ouch!) and take the car somewhere to somebody who
knows WTF they are doing and have the 550cc injectors and ARC2 installed
and everything tuned and adjusted. Where that might be I dunno yet, but
I'll find somebody within driving distance (there's a Mitsu tuning shop
opening up in Indiana that I can get to).

Would this work? Is there some unknown relationship between the Blitz and
the ARC2 I should know about? Should I get something other than the Blitz?

With luck, I can get all this done by Spring. Maybe I can surprise some of
those TT Porsches and Vipers.

Rich/old poop



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:39:30 -0800
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Merritt

Funny you should be a lookin ---- I'm selling a Supra pump [ used 3 months -- not by
me ] for $125. I bought a used HKS for $250 from the Supra guys so I don't need 
the other pump I bought with my ARC2, 720's etc.
Email if you care.

        Jim Berry
========================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: Jannusch, Matt <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>; <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>

> > You'll certainly want
> >to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm using the
> >last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it bolted
> >right in.  About $180.



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:38:37 -0600
From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Redline bad for Getrags

>I use BG Synchroshift in the transmission and Redline Heavy Shock Proof in
>the transfer case.

Does anyone know who makes the BG Synchroshift?  I've heard
it was GM.  I've been using Redline for the past two years, based
on info posted on this list; but it sounds like this is not good.  Any
suggestions would be appreciated.
Regards,
ptg  


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:48:16 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Geoff Mohler wrote:

> > On a side note, you imply that anything over 80% will grenade your engine.
> > Before I upgraded my fuel system I ran 400HP for about a year with the stock
> > 360's. That's well over 80%! Zero problems and I was running
> ---
>
> Your injectors, your motor...and you get to own all the pieces.
>
> Study injector design before you attempt to claim high duty-rates are
> acceptable.

I never said ultra high duty rates are acceptable. Barry implied that if you run
anything over 80% then you should expect your engine to grenade at any moment. I
was just stating that my car didn't magically explode when I pushed my stock
injectors well into the 95%+ range many, many times. It's not a good idea but it
can be done without hurting anything. Maybe I got lucky (who knows) but that is a
real world example, not theory.

I will say the 80% IDC you guys throw around as a max is a little on the reserved
side, especially if you're running disc type injectors. 85-90% is not a problem
for them. I think Russ Collins qualifies as a pretty reliable source... ;-)

Trev
96 R/T TT
12.17@116.3
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:40:59 -0500
From: GREG RUSH <rush@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

Will the super-AFC handle 550 injectors? EFI systems  has a system made
by hypertech called the shogun. It optimizes timming and a/f ratio. But I
do not know when it will be available for our cars.
 rushvr4

Jeff Lucius wrote:

> Rich,
>
> You should just roam around through my web site for answers to all
> these questions and many, many more. :) You'll have fun with 550s and
> the related upgrades. Maybe you can even help me out (comments and
> corrections) with some of my pages like my recently updated Brake
> Upgrade Guide.
>
> http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius2/j2-2-brakeupgrade.htm
>
> Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
> To: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>;
> <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 4:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update
>
> > You'll certainly want
> >to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm
> using the
> >last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it
> bolted
> >right in.  About $180.
>
> Just walk into a local Toyota dealer and ask for a Supra fuel pump?
> Is there a year or model number?
>
> >
> >For fuel control, you need something like the ARC2, VPC, Super-AFC
> or the
> >like.
>
> What are these devices.?
>
>  The benefit of the ARC2 is that it also upgrades the MAF into a
> >hotwire-style flow meter which should be much less restriction in
> the intake
> >path than the stock karman-vortex setup.  ARC2 also doesn't use
> chips to set
> >injector size, so if you change injectors in the future you just
> twiddle the
> >knobs and you are all set again.
>
> Where do you buy something like this? How much?
>
> Rich
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:52:31 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Redline bad for Getrags

BG Products in Wichita, KS. About 5 minutes down the road from me.

Trev
96 R/T TT
12.17@116.3
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4

"Paul T. Golley" wrote:

> Does anyone know who makes the BG Synchroshift?  I've heard
> it was GM.  I've been using Redline for the past two years, based
> on info posted on this list; but it sounds like this is not good.  Any
> suggestions would be appreciated.
> Regards,
> ptg
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:26:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Dude..how long have you been on the list again?  *grin*

I could recommend you search the FAQ..but I dunno if its there or not.

I'll search on the other PC some of the bookmarks I have.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Merritt wrote:

> >> What are these devices.?
> >---
> >
> >replacements to the AFM
>
> Air-fuel meter? monitor?
>
> Where do you get them? How much do they cost?
>  can't imagine walking into local Pep Boys or ordering it from JC Whitney.
>
> Rich/old poop
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:29:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

For $250 I got a real pump.  Nice 1000Hp unit.  Pretty quiet for an
external pump as well.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jim Berry wrote:

> Merritt
>
> Funny you should be a lookin ---- I'm selling a Supra pump [ used 3 months -- not by
> me ] for $125. I bought a used HKS for $250 from the Supra guys so I don't need 
> the other pump I bought with my ARC2, 720's etc.
> Email if you care.
>
>         Jim Berry
> ========================================================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
> To: Jannusch, Matt <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>; <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
> > > You'll certainly want
> > >to upgrade your fuel pump to make use of the fuel injectors - I'm using the
> > >last generation Supra pump (a Denso unit) with no problems and it bolted
> > >right in.  About $180.
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:31:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Agreed, but I dont want to bank on 80% IDC to get me where I wanna go.

Going with the nice Nippon style injectors which are much easier to
control at low duty, and the intake manifold will be modified to fit two
additional 900's when were ready sometime about mid-june.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Trevor L. James wrote:

> Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> > > On a side note, you imply that anything over 80% will grenade your engine.
> > > Before I upgraded my fuel system I ran 400HP for about a year with the stock
> > > 360's. That's well over 80%! Zero problems and I was running
> > ---
> >
> > Your injectors, your motor...and you get to own all the pieces.
> >
> > Study injector design before you attempt to claim high duty-rates are
> > acceptable.
>
> I never said ultra high duty rates are acceptable. Barry implied that if you run
> anything over 80% then you should expect your engine to grenade at any moment. I
> was just stating that my car didn't magically explode when I pushed my stock
> injectors well into the 95%+ range many, many times. It's not a good idea but it
> can be done without hurting anything. Maybe I got lucky (who knows) but that is a
> real world example, not theory.
>
> I will say the 80% IDC you guys throw around as a max is a little on the reserved
> side, especially if you're running disc type injectors. 85-90% is not a problem
> for them. I think Russ Collins qualifies as a pretty reliable source... ;-)
>
> Trev
> 96 R/T TT
> 12.17@116.3
> 92 GMC Typhoon
> 13.96@96.4
>
>


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:23:24 -0800
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Geoff

The HKS pump is rated at 390 lph [ about 100 Gal/hr ] and should easly support
1000 hp ---- all I lack are the turbos, injectors,IC, engine internals etc.etc.

But on the positive side, if I'm going to generate 1000 HP I've got to start
somewhere   :-)  Beats the hell out of starting with a gallon of 110 octane gas.

        Jim Berry  

 all I want is an infinite amount of horsepower and a throttle to control it
========================================================



- ----- Original Message -----
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: Jim Berry <fastmax@home.com>


> For $250 I got a real pump.  Nice 1000Hp unit.  Pretty quiet for an
> external pump as well.
>
> On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jim Berry wrote:
>
> > Merritt
> >
> > Funny you should be a lookin ---- I'm selling a Supra pump [ used 3 months -- not by
> > me ] for $125. I bought a used HKS for $250 from the Supra guys so I don't need 
> > the other pump I bought with my ARC2, 720's etc.
> > Email if you care.
> >
> >         Jim Berry



***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:50:53 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

This is going to stir up a flame war just like it did a year or so ago.
People seem to be in that mood.  But what the hell...

The AFC will handle 550s but not extremely well.  There will be some
drivability issues.  It can be tuned for acceptable WOT throttle and "just
okay" drivability.  In the end it is less than satisfying as a general
purpose solution for tuning 550s in our cars.  Combined with something like
the ARC2 it would be ideal.  I use mine in conjunction with a similar device
called a MASC manufactured by TRE (not available for the VR4 at this time).
Works great in that context.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Will the super-AFC handle 550 injectors? EFI systems  has a system made
> by hypertech called the shogun. It optimizes timming and a/f ratio. But I
> do not know when it will be available for our cars.
>  rushvr4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:59:05 -0600
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: AFC-fuel control flame war :)

Assuming we are using 550cc injectors...

I've been very successful with the 2nd gen AFC.  With the high/low throttle
position, on/off throttle adjustments, RPM adjustments etc.,   I have made a
very nice driveable car for a couple of customers.  They both quote better
drivability that stock.   This could be due to the extra maint  I did to the
car or just better tuning. *shrug*

The AFC can and has shown better drivability than the VPC for me personally.
The AFC/VPC
I do agree that the AFC is a band-aid at best.  Fuel control should be
load/boost pressure sensitive also.

For the 300-350.00 you pay for the AFC, it's the best "bang for the buck"
out there.   It is far superior to something like a mechanical FMU tuning
method.

If I am not mistaken, the older AFC is the only one you have used to base
your judgment.  If you get a chance, play with the newer one.

What am I going to do?  Stand alone :)

720cc injectors just don't run right with the AFC.  I did lose quite a bit
of drivability with these.

Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#  3612682

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
[mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On Behalf Of Barry E. King
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:51 PM
To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

This is going to stir up a flame war just like it did a year or so ago.
People seem to be in that mood.  But what the hell...

The AFC will handle 550s but not extremely well.  There will be some
drivability issues.  It can be tuned for acceptable WOT throttle and "just
okay" drivability.  In the end it is less than satisfying as a general
purpose solution for tuning 550s in our cars.  Combined with something like
the ARC2 it would be ideal.  I use mine in conjunction with a similar device
called a MASC manufactured by TRE (not available for the VR4 at this time).
Works great in that context.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Will the super-AFC handle 550 injectors? EFI systems  has a system made
> by hypertech called the shogun. It optimizes timming and a/f ratio. But I
> do not know when it will be available for our cars.
>  rushvr4


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:34:54 -0800
From: "Chris Maxwell" <shmacker@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>

I used the 550/S-AFC combo successfully a for a few months.  I didn't have
any problems, the car was as smooth as stock to redline, and my mileage was
just the same as stock.  The only reason I pulled them out is because I felt
I didn't need 450hp as much as I thought I did...so I sold them.  It's hard
enough to keep the car together with my current setup, so I thought having
those goodies would temp me to do things that I shouldn't.  hehe.  Plus, I
didn't want to buy all the gauges that I would need to properly tune the car
to max potential.

I would say get an ARC if your budget allows.  Mine didn't (well, I could
have but I didn't want to waste $1000 like that) so I tried this combo.  I
also like to take the "road less traveled."

Take care,
Chris
92 TT



> > Will the super-AFC handle 550 injectors? EFI systems  has a system made
> > by hypertech called the shogun. It optimizes timming and a/f ratio. But
I
> > do not know when it will be available for our cars.
> >  rushvr4
>



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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:18:21 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: AFC-fuel control flame war :)

I should have qualified that.  Figures you'd jump all over it... ;-p

I have no experience with the 2nd generation of the S-AFC.  It looks like a
nice unit and appears to be vastly improved feature-wise over the earlier
one that I have.  I did after all use mine solo for several months whilst
awaiting tweaks on the MASC.  It was "okay" but required constant fiddling
depending upon conditions.

You backed up my basic intent -- it is a band-aid solution that is not "the
best" but is okay for what it is.  And I agree, bang for the buck there
isn't anything in its class for moderate power applications.  Just don't
expect it to be the last fuel controller you'll ever buy, which begs the
question as to why one would buy it as their sole means of fuel control in
the first place when there are other alternatives.  As you have also
concluded.

How's the Spyder?


Barry


> -----Original Message-----
>
> Assuming we are using 550cc injectors...
>
> I've been very successful with the 2nd gen AFC.  With the
> high/low throttle
> position, on/off throttle adjustments, RPM adjustments etc.,   I
> have made a
> very nice driveable car for a couple of customers.  They both quote better
> drivability that stock.   This could be due to the extra maint  I
> did to the
> car or just better tuning. *shrug*
>
> The AFC can and has shown better drivability than the VPC for me
> personally.
> The AFC/VPC
> I do agree that the AFC is a band-aid at best.  Fuel control should be
> load/boost pressure sensitive also.
>
> For the 300-350.00 you pay for the AFC, it's the best "bang for the buck"
> out there.   It is far superior to something like a mechanical FMU tuning
> method.
>
> If I am not mistaken, the older AFC is the only one you have used to base
> your judgment.  If you get a chance, play with the newer one.
>
> What am I going to do?  Stand alone :)
>
> 720cc injectors just don't run right with the AFC.  I did lose quite a bit
> of drivability with these.
>
> Brad


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:18:56 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

I wasn't going to respond to the rest of this thread since I sensed it was
fast becoming pointless.  However, you are making claims about what I said
which are simply incorrect.

Let's get this straight:  I did NOT state nor intend to imply that an engine
was doomed because it had 550 cc injectors.   That is of course nonsense.
There are a great many variables which contribute to failures and successes.
I ran 550s for quite a while without "any apparent problem".  I was also not
doing much more than quick blasts here and there.  For some, hell, maybe
even MOST people, this is fine.

We're out of that league here though.  Both Geoff's and Rich's cars are
destined for road-course work.  Marginal injectors would be, put plainly and
simply, a dumb idea in this context.  If one does not plan for success, they
are planning for failure.  Pretty simple.  Geoff knows this.  Rich perhaps
did not.

I stated quite clearly that in high horsepower applications 550s in our
engines were NOT ideal.  Many on this list and elsewhere have demonstrated
this.  Some of them have had fuel starvation related failures.  In all cases
the correct pumps and regulators were in place.  Running much beyond 80% IDC
for extended periods of time IN GENERAL is NOT recommended and is NOT
"safe".  Russ Collins will agree, or at least would have a few years back
when I discussed it with him.  Just so it is clear, blasting WOT for a
handful of seconds down the 1320' now and then should be fine.  Note the
margin of error in that statement -- "should".  Maxing out the injectors or
running them well into the marginal territory for extended periods of time
as happens on a road course or high speed runs is NOT safe.  It might be
okay.  But it might not.  With correctly sized injectors there is no
"might".  One foreseeable point of failure has been minimized before it
becomes a problem.

Here's another little nugget.  Lucas injectors (disc type on most if not all
models), albeit efficient, were at one point in time among the most
unreliable injectors available.  They may have cleaned up their act in the
last several years -- I never had any problems with mine in 8 months of hard
use and Russ is a stand-up guy.  The pintle type (ND and others) are simpler
and in use in a huge number of applications.  The simple reason is that they
are historically more reliable.  When they fail they tend to stay open, not
closed.  Another reason to use them in a racing application.

In the end you'll believe what you like.  Those that already know, know.
Those that do not will hopefully do some research and arrive at their own
conclusions.  Just don't twist my words with your bias to suit your agenda
please, whatever that may be.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> > > On a side note, you imply that anything over 80% will grenade
> your engine.
> > > Before I upgraded my fuel system I ran 400HP for about a year
> with the stock
> > > 360's. That's well over 80%! Zero problems and I was running
> > ---
> >
> > Your injectors, your motor...and you get to own all the pieces.
> >
> > Study injector design before you attempt to claim high duty-rates are
> > acceptable.
>
> I never said ultra high duty rates are acceptable. Barry implied
> that if you run
> anything over 80% then you should expect your engine to grenade
> at any moment. I
> was just stating that my car didn't magically explode when I
> pushed my stock
> injectors well into the 95%+ range many, many times. It's not a
> good idea but it
> can be done without hurting anything. Maybe I got lucky (who
> knows) but that is a
> real world example, not theory.
>
> I will say the 80% IDC you guys throw around as a max is a little
> on the reserved
> side, especially if you're running disc type injectors. 85-90% is
> not a problem
> for them. I think Russ Collins qualifies as a pretty reliable
> source... ;-)
>
> Trev
> 96 R/T TT
> 12.17@116.3
> 92 GMC Typhoon
> 13.96@96.4


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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:51:21 -0800
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tilton clutch photos

I took the time to weigh my, soon to be installed setup ---

RPS turbo carbon, 6 puck -----------------  3½ #
RPS pressure plate -------------------------- 14 #
Mueller flywheel ------------------------------ 10 #

Keep in mind the last two were weighed on a bathroom scale and therefore
subject to error, although I did weigh the items together and got within ½ # of
the individual numbers.

        Jim berry
===================================================
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>

> I weighed (bathroom scales) these components last week when we put
> Ken's GT-Pro Custom 2400-lb clutch in.
>
> Stock flywheel: 21.5 lbs
> Clutch disk (GT-Pro - 1st one) 5 lbs (looked like stock)
> Clutch disk (GT-Pro - 2nd one) 3.5 lbs (very nice)
> Clutch housing (GT-Pro) 15 lbs (looked like stock)
>
> So total stock is like 41-42 lbs.
> Just flywheel and clutch is 26-27 lbs.



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 02:07:12 -0500
From: "Mihai Raicu" <aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 18" Rims

Fred, Oskar and Trevor,

OK everybody.  Sorry the number for the Mitsu 18" chrome rims I gave you
don't match with the Stealth 18" rims.  I gave it a try.  It was with good
faith I did it and good that Oskar and Trevor caught it before Fred bought
new wheels.  Fred can still use Arrow Tire's 800 phone number or the other 2
Michigan wheel dealers.

- -MIKE-          aa2345@wayne.edu
95 Red VR4
Detroit Metro Area, Michigan

- -----Original Message-----
From: Oskar [mailto:osk@mediaone.net]
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 4:53 PM
To: Team3S; Trevor L. James; aa2345@mail1.wayne.edu
Cc: rich@magma.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: 18" Rims


95-96 Stealth R/T optional 18" chrome wheels are 5 spoke.  95-99 VR-4 18"
chrome wheels are 6 spoke.  Mitsubishi dealers do not sell the Stealth
wheels.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:02:31 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: AFC-fuel control flame war :)

Listening to all the engine tuning wizards bickering over fine points of
fuel controllers is setting my teeth on edge. The ether is getting soggy
with acronyms, and I understand only about 5% of what you are talking about.

You guys are scaring me.

Is there any place I can go to find out WTF is a AFC, ARC, VPC, FMU, MASC,
Karman-vortex, MAF, MAP and all the rest of the terms you guys throw
around?  I suspect the answers are buried somewhere in the dozens of tech
articles on Jeff Lucius' superb site, but I don't have time to dig them
out. I need an "Air/Fuel Controllers for Dummies book."

Geez, here I thought I was doing good by getting bigger injectors to keep
my engine temps down. Now I gotta spend another zillion dollars on AFCs and
FMUs and other WTFs.

I'm so confused. My old Corvette was sooooooo easy.

Rich/old poop






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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:17:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbos update

Personally, I dont trust HKS hardware.  Been thru too many of thier junk
boost controllers *EVC4* that had "odd" days, and FWIW..when you eclipse
600Hp Id rather stand with what the V8 crowd has been using with great
sucess for 50 years.

YMMV..not a slam on HKS.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jim Berry wrote:

> Geoff
>
> The HKS pump is rated at 390 lph [ about 100 Gal/hr ] and should easly support
> 1000 hp ---- all I lack are the turbos, injectors,IC, engine internals etc.etc.
>
> But on the positive side, if I'm going to generate 1000 HP I've got to start
> somewhere   :-)  Beats the hell out of starting with a gallon of 110 octane gas.
>
>         Jim Berry  
>
>  all I want is an infinite amount of horsepower and a throttle to control it
> ========================================================
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> To: Jim Berry <fastmax@home.com>
>
>
> > For $250 I got a real pump.  Nice 1000Hp unit.  Pretty quiet for an
> > external pump as well.
> >
> > On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jim Berry wrote:
> >
> > > Merritt
> > >
> > > Funny you should be a lookin ---- I'm selling a Supra pump [ used 3 months -- not by
> > > me ] for $125. I bought a used HKS for $250 from the Supra guys so I don't need 
> > > the other pump I bought with my ARC2, 720's etc.
> > > Email if you care.
> > >
> > >         Jim Berry
>
>
>


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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:23:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tilton clutch photos

Cool..I have a mueller in the Supra.

Its entertaining to watch other Supra people struggle to move the car in
small areas..constantly killing the motor.  You'll soon discover this as
well until you get used to it.



On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Jim Berry wrote:

> I took the time to weigh my, soon to be installed setup ---
>
> RPS turbo carbon, 6 puck -----------------  3½ #
> RPS pressure plate -------------------------- 14 #
> Mueller flywheel ------------------------------ 10 #
>
> Keep in mind the last two were weighed on a bathroom scale and therefore
> subject to error, although I did weigh the items together and got within ½ # of
> the individual numbers.
>
>         Jim berry
> ===================================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
>
> > I weighed (bathroom scales) these components last week when we put
> > Ken's GT-Pro Custom 2400-lb clutch in.
> >
> > Stock flywheel: 21.5 lbs
> > Clutch disk (GT-Pro - 1st one) 5 lbs (looked like stock)
> > Clutch disk (GT-Pro - 2nd one) 3.5 lbs (very nice)
> > Clutch housing (GT-Pro) 15 lbs (looked like stock)
> >
> > So total stock is like 41-42 lbs.
> > Just flywheel and clutch is 26-27 lbs.
>
>
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***
>


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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:31:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Open-Track day @Buttonwillow..read..

Again I will be planning in visiting Buttonwillow raceway for an
open-track event.

I DID meet a few of you at the last event (this is BCCd to other lists
too) and hope to see you again and others.

http://www.open-track.com/ot_general/ot_schedule.html is where you look
these fun events up in Southern Cali.

I will be at the 2/10/01 event.

We will be taking at a minumin:

95 3000GT-VR4 @650Hp
95 RX7-TT
93 Celica AllTrac

With luck..perhaps the 01 MR-Spyder as well.

So guys..check it out, sign up..and let me know!



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Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:35:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbos update

> We're out of that league here though.  Both Geoff's and Rich's cars are
> destined for road-course work.  Marginal injectors would be, put plainly and
> simply, a dumb idea in this context.  If one does not plan for success, they
> are planning for failure.  Pretty simple.  Geoff knows this.  Rich perhaps
> did not.
- ---

Well put, im also not trying to call anyone elses approach as "bad", just
not "mine".


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:07:22 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2nd tranny failure

Hi Susan,

$4K is still too much for a used tranny.  For $3K-$4K, you should be able to get
a rebuilt tranny AND transfer case installed.  There are 2 places you should get
in touch with.  Others have already mentioned Kormex, (800) 429-5464, in
Ontario, CA.  The other place is MD Auto in San Diego, (619) 390-0450.  Both
places sell rebuilt trannys and transfer cases with some new parts.  A rebuilt
tranny and transfer case will cost between $1800 and $2700 for the pair.  They
also sell some new parts and some used parts.  Most synchros and all gears are
currently not available new, but all seals, bearings, shafts, transfer spools
and 1-2 synchro sets are available.  They usually have used gears, synchros, and
housings though.  If you can find a trustworthy shop in your area, they could do
the rebuild if you buy the parts, or you could buy the rebuilt units and have
the shop install them.

Good luck,
Ken

> You guys are great!  I'm needing info on tranny parts; I've searched through
> the list archives, and there's so many issues of this, I'm hoping for some
> more specific direction.  My '91 VR-4 (bought it at 70K in '97) had the 1st
> tranny replaced at 50K, and now has a busted transfer case rod (34K on new
> tranny).
>
> Dealership's told me they can't replace the part, and want $8k to put whole
> new tranny/transfer case unit in (no warranty). I've downloaded a stack of
> files on similar issues on my yr/make/model from NHTSA, but all owner's
> names are confidential, so luckily, I've found this list!
>
> I've found a shop that will do the replacement for $4K (they've located a
> used unit), which still hurts!  So, 1) I've downloaded the 'parts list' and
> am in process of searching it, but don't know if I have the terminology
> correct for this part, and 2)I'm in Houston, TX and would love to know of a
> trusted mechanic who knows these machines, and will do this replacement
> properly.

- --
If you lived in your car, you'd be home by now.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics - Fusion Group, San Diego, CA

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:48:13 -0000
From: "Susan ." <vr4girl@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2nd tranny failure

Merritt -

Thanks for 'feeling for me' after your local dealership did the 3k
replacement for you, and mine wants 8k. The "no warranty" statement really
should have been "the 12/12 warranty for the 1st recalled tranny has now
expired (3 yrs. and 34k miles)".  I'm a complete novice here, but 12k miles
or 12 months on a tranny is rather weak, is it not?

And what's this "no warranty" stuff? If Mitsu puts in a new tranny, it
comes with a 12-month factory warranty.

Rich/old poop



_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:47:58 -0000
From: "Susan ." <vr4girl@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2nd tranny failure

Merritt -

Thanks for 'feeling for me' after your local dealership did the 3k
replacement for you, and mine wants 8k. The "no warranty" statement really
should have been "the 12/12 warranty for the 1st recalled tranny has now
expired (3 yrs. and 34k miles)".  I'm a complete novice here, but 12k miles
or 12 months on a tranny is rather weak, is it not?

And what's this "no warranty" stuff? If Mitsu puts in a new tranny, it
comes with a 12-month factory warranty.

Rich/old poop



_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:58:31 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2nd tranny failure

>The "no warranty" statement really
>should have been "the 12/12 warranty for the 1st recalled tranny has now
>expired (3 yrs. and 34k miles)".  I'm a complete novice here, but 12k miles
>or 12 months on a tranny is rather weak, is it not?

I suppose.
You'd think they would go 36/36 on a tranny.
Maybe they know their trannies are bad.

Rich

>

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:30:55 -0500
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 2nd tranny failure

Susan,

   I just purchased a warranty for my car (at 49,950) that was 12mo/12k for
$1,600.  This covers anything that fails (side mirror defroster, seat motor,
turn signal fuse, etc.).  If you picture a chart with the first column being
"A" for the cheapest and running to "H" for the most expensive and down the
rows from Basic, Standard, Deluxe.  Our cars are under column "G"
(second-most expensive) and mine was between 30k-60k so I was in the second
bracket at $1,600 for a year.
   My 1-2 synchro is bad (right around 49,000 miles for those keeping track)
so this warranty will more than pay for itself in the first fix.  I gave
this info out before and can give it to you offline if you want or to the
list again if there is interest.
   This company is one of two that will warranty Twin Turbo cars like ours,
Supra, Porsche, Ferrari, etc.  No it isn't cheap but for three years it gets
quite economical.  Fortunately I have a great contact and he is willing to
cover non-OEM items such as coilovers, Big Reds, etc. under the warranty
even though it states that it does not cover non-factory items.

- --Flash!
dschilberg@freemarkets.com

3Si #577
1995 Black VR-4 w/ K&N FIPK, Magnecor KV85 wires, and a custom spark plug
plate
http://www.ec3s.org/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi


- -----Original Message-----
From: Susan . [mailto:vr4girl@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 18:48
To: merritt@cedar-rapids.net; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2nd tranny failure

Merritt -

Thanks for 'feeling for me' after your local dealership did the 3k
replacement for you, and mine wants 8k. The "no warranty" statement really
should have been "the 12/12 warranty for the 1st recalled tranny has now
expired (3 yrs. and 34k miles)".  I'm a complete novice here, but 12k miles
or 12 months on a tranny is rather weak, is it not?


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