team3s
Sunday, December 3
2000 Volume 01
: Number
338
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 02 Dec 2000 00:32:40 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <
wjcrabtree@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Getrag bought by Dana
Merritt wrote:
> This may be
a break for us.
> Dana Corp has purchased Getrag.
FOR WHAT IT'S
WORTH:
I'm on my second Jeep Wrangler and have
been impressed with the products
that Dana has turned out for my two
vehicles. Durable and dependable.
Individual parts are WIDELY available
for just about every portion of the Jeep
driveline that the DANA corp.
produces/manufactures. I think they realize the
value of having their
products repaired time and again, rather than replaced by
another company's
product. That's the GOOD news.
The BAD news is that if you read the
press release carefully, it states that
Dana has purchased an interest in
Getrag......not a CONTROLLING interest. Just
because they are sharing
their capitol and the profits does not mean that they
will have any say over
how business is conducted at the "faraway, stuck-up
German
company"
My point is that this may be a step in the right direction, but
don't get hopes
up. I doubt things are changing soon.
-
--
- -Jeff Crabtree
'91 Stealth R/T TT(3/SI
#499)
2K Wrangler TJ
Sport
St. Louis, MO
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 03:17:45
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: AWD Torque Split ACTUAL
I know this is an old topic but I see
that two of our prominent
members have cited news and commercial literature
concerning the
validity of the uneven torque split in our cars. And in past
posts I
too have stated that the torque is split unevenly as evidenced
by
different front and rear differential ratios. Since then I have torn
a
center differential/viscous coupling unit (CD/VCU) apart (thanks to
Frank
Martin at Kormex) and come to a much different conclusion.
Torque is split
evenly in all year TT and VR4s.
All torque enters the case of the CD/VCU
through the ring gear on its
outside. All torque leaves the CD/VCU through
the 2 output shafts.
Both output shafts must spin at the same rate if the VCU
is operating
correctly (if the VCU is broken then the CD is an open diff and
worse
all torque goes to the front wheels). If torque is split
**unevely**
at the CD/VCU then each shaft **must** spin at a different rate.
Both
shafts spin at the same rate so torque is split even, 50/50,
front
and rear. The front diff reduction ratio is the same as the rear
diff
times transfer case ratios so both shaft rotation rates are the
same
coming out of CD/VCU.
More details and many pictures on our
CD/VCU and the entire AWD
system can be found from the Tech Page at my web
site.
It seems the myth of the 45/55 split started in the
magazines
(probably based of front and rear diff ratios) as nowhere
does
Mitsubishi state such a thing that I have seen. The DSM setup
is
similar (but different gear arrangement in the CD) and the DSM
Tech
manual clearly states a 50/50 split at the CD/VCU.
Now do we all
agree that torque is split 50/50 in our cars or I have
a made a silly mistake
in observation and mechanics somewhere?
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "xwing" <
xwing@execpc.com>
To: "Sirius 3000GT
Mail List" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Saturday, October 23, 1999 9:02 AM
Subject: Team3S: Re: VR4 AWD Torque Split
ACTUAL
The 3000GT/Stealth TT in the USA and in the whole world I
feel
confident, have always had a 45% front / 55% rear torque bias.
There
was no change in 1994/with the 6 speed. The 91-93 most
definitely
also had this SAME 45/55% split. For reference, see most any
article
on the car but for specifics I refer to the most complete article
on
the car/tech specs when it first came out: Road and Track,
September
1990--has the 3000VR4 on the COVER with title "PUMPED
UP!"
This states on p.41 that center planetary diff incoprorates a
VCU;
with tires getting same traction, split is 45/55 front/rear.
With
slippage at either end, the end with more traction gets more
torque.
Matt, where did you see any reports to the contrary? That
is bad
info, hate to let that get into people's minds because it will be
a
myth from then on...
Jack Tertadian
Matt Jannusch
wrote:
> > > AWD 55% at the rear wheels and 45% at the front
wheels.
> > I heard '91-93 models actually had
> > 40/60
split and it was not until '94-99
> > that cars came with 45/55
split...
>
> These are the correct numbers. It was changed in
'94 when the
6-speed Getrag was introduced.
> -Matt '95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Sirius 3000GT
Mail List" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Saturday, October 23, 1999 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: VR4 AWD Torque
Split ACTUAL
> The 3000GT/Stealth TT in the USA and in the whole world
I feel
confident,
> have always had a 45% front / 55% rear torque
bias. There was no
change
in
> 1994/with the 6 speed.
I
also checked the information I have seen like prospectus and on
every report
and every paper where the bias was mentioned a 45/55 was
written for any
years.
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
__________________________________________________
Do You
Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 10:03:24
-0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Getrag bought by Dana
>The BAD news is that if you read
the press release carefully, it states that
>Dana has purchased an
interest in Getrag......not a CONTROLLING interest.
Just
>because they
are sharing their capitol and the profits does not mean that
they
>will
have any say over how business is conducted at the "faraway,
stuck-up
>German company"
>
With their large interest, they
should have a say in how business is
conducted here in the USA. Getrag can
continue to act stuck up with the
rest of the world, but we don't let people
get away with such shenanigans
around here.
Still, let's wait until
Monday when Jack T and the folks who have deep
experience in this matter get
back to work and their PCs, and can tell us
which way the wind is blowing on
this issue.
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:32:00
-0500
From: "Laura Roehrig" <
lroehrig@zbzoom.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Getrag bought by Dana
As a newbie, I asked for help from Team 3S
back in Sept. of this year, and
many of you were very gracious to pass on to
me information on trying to get
a 3/4 synchro for my 91 TT. After
exhausting all of my efforts from the
leads given to me here in the
States....which by the way only one company
could deliver me the parts at a
whopping $800..... I decided to go after
Getrag in Germany. To my
success I was able to get into contact with a
person there....after being
transferred through the ranks, to a man who took
interest in my
problem. Although the part was no longer being made for my
vehicle...he
put out memos to the various factory warehouses for a new 3/4
synchro for my
car. (he said this particular warehouse had plenty more
sitting
around). It took a month, but I had the brand new parts delivered
to my
door from Germany for less than $300.
This as I see it is at least an
effort on Getrag's part to accomadate our
needs regarding tranny parts.
And they were also very helpful, kind, and
available to be reached through
the phone, fax, and email. My car runs
beautifully!
If anyone
wants more information about contacting this man, or on more
details
concerning making the purchase, please contact my personal email.
All of his
contact information on reaching him at Getrag is available to
anyone who
needs it....(he even gave me his cell phone number to reach him
if I couldn't
reach him at the office! LOL...but I won't pass that on).
Hopefully this
information might bring us closer resolving the Getrag parts
issue, and at
the least may provide a temporary fix to the supply problem.
Laura
Roehrig
91 Stealth RT/TT
lroehrig@zbzoom.net***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 20:11:44
-0500
From: Rick <
melvin@gamewood.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Borla exhaust tips changeing
I lost the mail from someone
wanting to change their tips on the Borla
exhaust,and need to get in touch
with them.It can be done with no damage
to your system,and I would love to
get the tips they remove, as I want
to change my system and have 2 tips
on each side and will buy his old
tips,if the price is right.Get in
touch,
RICK
'91 Red Base
'91 Red R/T
'92 Blue R/T T/T
Stealths
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 01:21:26
-0500
From: Bill Wagner <
wagner@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: AWD Torque Split ACTUAL
Jeff:
Torque is angular (or
rotational) force, not angular velocity. Just
because the shafts are rotating
at the same speed does not nessecarily
mean they are both having the same
amount of force applied to them.
I'm NOT claiming to be an expert on the
torque transfer between the
front and rear by any means, but torque is equal
to the mass of it's
load times the angular acceleration, plus the summation
of all forces
acting to oppose the motion of the angular force.
If I had to guess, assuming the 45/55 split is true, it probably
has
more to do with trying to balance the force on demand via
fluid
pressure. If the same force is applied to the front and rear axles
under
acceleration, force is wasted on the front.
Like I said, I'm
not an expert.
Bill Wagner
Jeff Lucius wrote:
>
>
I know this is an old topic but I see that two of our prominent
> members
have cited news and commercial literature concerning the
> validity of the
uneven torque split in our cars. And in past posts I
> too have stated
that the torque is split unevenly as evidenced by
> different front and
rear differential ratios. Since then I have torn
> a center
differential/viscous coupling unit (CD/VCU) apart (thanks to
> Frank
Martin at Kormex) and come to a much different conclusion.
> Torque is
split evenly in all year TT and VR4s.
>
> All torque enters the
case of the CD/VCU through the ring gear on its
> outside. All torque
leaves the CD/VCU through the 2 output shafts.
> Both output shafts must
spin at the same rate if the VCU is operating
> correctly (if the VCU is
broken then the CD is an open diff and worse
> all torque goes to the
front wheels). If torque is split **unevely**
> at the CD/VCU then each
shaft **must** spin at a different rate. Both
> shafts spin at the same
rate so torque is split even, 50/50, front
> and rear. The front diff
reduction ratio is the same as the rear diff
> times transfer case ratios
so both shaft rotation rates are the same
> coming out of
CD/VCU.
>
> More details and many pictures on our CD/VCU and the
entire AWD
> system can be found from the Tech Page at my web
site.
>
> It seems the myth of the 45/55 split started in the
magazines
> (probably based of front and rear diff ratios) as nowhere
does
> Mitsubishi state such a thing that I have seen. The DSM setup
is
> similar (but different gear arrangement in the CD) and the DSM
Tech
> manual clearly states a 50/50 split at the CD/VCU.
>
>
Now do we all agree that torque is split 50/50 in our cars or I have
> a
made a silly mistake in observation and mechanics somewhere?
>
>
Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "xwing" <
xwing@execpc.com>
> To: "Sirius
3000GT Mail List" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 9:02 AM
> Subject: Team3S: Re: VR4 AWD
Torque Split ACTUAL
>
> The 3000GT/Stealth TT in the USA and in the
whole world I feel
> confident, have always had a 45% front / 55% rear
torque bias. There
> was no change in 1994/with the 6 speed.
The 91-93 most definitely
> also had this SAME 45/55% split. For
reference, see most any article
> on the car but for specifics I refer to
the most complete article on
> the car/tech specs when it first came
out: Road and Track, September
> 1990--has the 3000VR4 on the COVER
with title "PUMPED UP!"
>
> This states on p.41 that center
planetary diff incoprorates a VCU;
> with tires getting same traction,
split is 45/55 front/rear. With
> slippage at either end, the end
with more traction gets more torque.
>
> Matt, where did you see
any reports to the contrary? That is bad
> info, hate to let that
get into people's minds because it will be a
> myth from then
on...
>
> Jack Tertadian
>
> Matt Jannusch
wrote:
>
> > > > AWD 55% at the rear wheels and 45% at the
front wheels.
> > > I heard '91-93 models actually had
>
> > 40/60 split and it was not until '94-99
> > > that cars
came with 45/55 split...
> >
> > These are the correct
numbers. It was changed in '94 when the
> 6-speed Getrag was
introduced.
> > -Matt '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>
> -----
Original Message -----
> From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
> To: "Sirius
3000GT Mail List" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 11:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: VR4
AWD Torque Split ACTUAL
>
> > The 3000GT/Stealth TT in the USA
and in the whole world I feel
> confident,
> > have always had a
45% front / 55% rear torque bias. There was no
> change
>
in
> > 1994/with the 6 speed.
>
> I also checked the
information I have seen like prospectus and on
> every report and every
paper where the bias was mentioned a 45/55 was
> written for any
years.
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
>
>
__________________________________________________
> Do You
Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of
Products.
>
http://shopping.yahoo.com/>
> *** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 03:28:59
-0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: AWD Torque Split ACTUAL
Hi Bill,
"torque is equal to
the mass of it's load times the angular
acceleration". NO. You forgot the
perpendicular distance between the
line of action of the force (which is mass
times acceleration) and
the axis of rotation.
As two gears (or shafts)
mesh and torque (work) and power are
transfered. Torque changes when the
effective diameter of the gear or
shaft changes. If the second (output) gear
is larger than the first
gear, torque increases (force times the length of
the "arm") and
angular velocity decreases. Power, or torque times angular
velocity,
remains the same. If there is no velocity change, there is no
change
in torque (as the 2 gears must have the same effective
diameter).
In our CD/VCU both output shafts turn at the same velocity,
which
happens to be the same as the ring gear on the CD/VCU case -
that's
why no gear reduction is noted for the CD/VCU other than the
primary
one from the intermediate shaft. Hence both output shafts have
the
same effective diameter and torque is equal (and power too), that
is
there is a 50/50 split. Remember, we are talking about the
forces
**applied** to the output shafts from the engine, well at least
the
ones left after frictional and inertial losses from the
transaxle
gears and shafts, not net force, work or power.
I don't
understand why is torque "wasted" on the front axles, since
vehicle weight is
highly biased to the front and so (theoretically)
traction on the tires
should be better there - except of course under
extreme (not typical)
acceleration, as in drag racing. Unfortunately
with the open front diff all
the front torque could go to one axle
when slippage occurs. But this could be
the topic of another thread.
Also, where (which device or case) would be
the source of this "fluid
pressure" you mention that can "balance the force
on demand"? You can
view all components of our AWD system, including the
insides of the
transaxle and CD/VCU at the url below.
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-AWD.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Wagner" <
wagner@sprynet.com>
To: "Jeff Lucius"
<
stealthman92@yahoo.com>;
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Saturday, December 02, 2000 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: AWD Torque Split
ACTUAL
Jeff:
Torque is angular (or rotational) force, not angular
velocity. Just
because the shafts are rotating at the same speed does
not
nessecarily
mean they are both having the same amount of force applied
to them.
I'm NOT claiming to be an expert on the torque transfer between
the
front and rear by any means, but torque is equal to the mass of
it's
load times the angular acceleration, plus the summation of all
forces
acting to oppose the motion of the angular force.
If I
had to guess, assuming the 45/55 split is true, it probably has
more to do
with trying to balance the force on demand via fluid
pressure. If the same
force is applied to the front and rear axles
under acceleration, force is
wasted on the front.
Like I said, I'm not an expert.
Bill
Wagner
Jeff Lucius wrote:
>
> I know this is an old
topic but I see that two of our prominent
> members have cited news and
commercial literature concerning the
> validity of the uneven torque split
in our cars. And in past posts
I
> too have stated that the torque is
split unevenly as evidenced by
> different front and rear differential
ratios. Since then I have
torn
> a center differential/viscous coupling
unit (CD/VCU) apart (thanks
to
> Frank Martin at Kormex) and come to a
much different conclusion.
> Torque is split evenly in all year TT and
VR4s.
>
> All torque enters the case of the CD/VCU through the ring
gear on
its
> outside. All torque leaves the CD/VCU through the 2
output shafts.
> Both output shafts must spin at the same rate if the VCU
is
operating
> correctly (if the VCU is broken then the CD is an open
diff and
worse
> all torque goes to the front wheels). If torque is
split
**unevely**
> at the CD/VCU then each shaft **must** spin at a
different rate.
Both
> shafts spin at the same rate so torque is split
even, 50/50, front
> and rear. The front diff reduction ratio is the same
as the rear
diff
> times transfer case ratios so both shaft rotation
rates are the
same
> coming out of CD/VCU.
>
> More
details and many pictures on our CD/VCU and the entire AWD
> system can be
found from the Tech Page at my web site.
>
> It seems the myth of
the 45/55 split started in the magazines
> (probably based of front and
rear diff ratios) as nowhere does
> Mitsubishi state such a thing that I
have seen. The DSM setup is
> similar (but different gear arrangement in
the CD) and the DSM Tech
> manual clearly states a 50/50 split at the
CD/VCU.
>
> Now do we all agree that torque is split 50/50 in our
cars or I
have
> a made a silly mistake in observation and mechanics
somewhere?
>
> Jeff Lucius,
www.stealth316.com__________________________________________________
Do
You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of
Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#338
*********************