team3s
Thursday, October 26
2000 Volume 01 :
Number
307
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:06:57 -0400
From: "Kevin Schappell" <
kevin@pacarsearch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
well.
Jeff,
I checked mine a few weeks ago and had no problems with
leaking past the
rings or out the exhaust. It held 15 PSI no
problem. I will take some pics
of my setup and post soon. It only
takes 5 minutes to get the filter and
MAF off and hook up the adapter.
I used a spray bottle with dishwashing
liquid in it, to locate the smallest
leaks. Just look for the bubbles :-)
Good luck,
Kevin
Schappell
Learn more about your car
http://www.AutoEducation.comOnline
Mobile Audio SuperStore
http://mobilesounds.vstorecar.com3SI
members.... you have to see this page
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Jeff Lucius
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:10 AM
>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
>
well.
>
>
> Thanks Vineet. Some pictures of this setup for 3S
cars would be
> helpful. Unlike our 4-cylinder DSM brothers, where 2
cylinders can be
> at TDC and 2 at BDC and all valves closed, our
6-cylinder engines
> always have at least 2 cylinders with intake and
exhaust valves open.
> In other words, at any given time there are only
and always two
> intake valves open.
>
> So you pressurized
the intake system/engine on your VR4 and it held,
> not leaking past rings
or spooling the turbos through the exhaust
> valves?
>
> I
need to pressurize the intake system in my car to test for leaks
> this
winter. I was going to start right after the turbos (no pressure
> before
the turbos) and stop between the Y-pipe and TB. If that checks
> out OK,
then I was going to make some sort of sheet-metal/gasket
> arrangement to
block off the plenum at the manifold to check the
> TB/hoses and
plenum/hoses.
>
> Has anybody else performed these tests on 3S cars?
Comments and
> advice before I undertake this would be
appreciated.
>
> Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
> -->
http://www.stealth316.com/>
>
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vineet Singh (3S)" <
stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
> To:
"Team3S" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:34 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Post I sent
to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
> well.
>
>
> I
recently made a boost tester, one for each of my cars (DSM and
>
3/S),
> similar to the ones that people post. It's basically a *PVC
endcap, a
> silicon IC coupling, and an NPT fitting I can hook up my air
hose to.
> I have a regulator, so nothing blows up :) Be careful if you
build
> your own, wear some sort of eye/face protection, and watch the
boost
> gauge as well as what the regulator says.
>
> *For the
3/S cars, I think it's a "T 2.25" fitting, endcap (doesn't
> have to be
threaded, but you must use PVC cement), and two lengths of
> 2.25" (I
think) PVC tubing. Totaling about 13" in length. It fits
> where your MAF
tube and initial rubber piece is. You must remove the
> metal fittings
inside the tubes that go to each turbo, but the stock
> clamps should hold
fine. You drill the end cap on the T, and tap
> threads for a male NPT
fitting into it (use Teflon tape to seal).
>
> I've tested about
12-15 cars (local chi-dsm'rs come over and test
> usually), and I can't
believe that all except ONE car we have tested
> has had a 3 to 15 psi
leak somewhere, usually where no one thought to
> check. Most leaks seem
to occur in THESE places, in order of most
> overlooked.
>
>
BLOW OFF VALVE. These often leak over *7 psi. I guess if its a 1g DSM
>
BOV, you crush it so that it holds more than 19psi (These are not
> exact
numbers, your results may vary). If it's aftermarket, you
> adjust
>
it, or buy another one. If it's *stock, I guarantee that it
leaks.
>
> TURBO OUTLET ELBOW / J PIPE. Make sure you have a new
gasket (O-RING
> on the 3/S's) in there, and that the mating surfaces are
clean. If
> you
> have an aftermarket J pipe, I don't know what the
remedy is, I will
> assume a thin layer of RTV will hold well. MAKE SURE
you DON'T
> tighten
> TOO much, as the compressor housing you are
screwing into is aluminum
> (soft). Also make sure that the flange of the
aftermarket pipe is
> perfectly flat. It's very easy to warp something
when welding. On the
> 3/S cars, the rear turbo can leak. Stupid design
IMO. A new O-RING is
> usually required, some RTV doesn't hurt
either.
>
> HOSES. Hoses off the throttle body or intake plenum, in
various
> places, can be unhooked, deteriorated, installed wrong, or have
slits
> in them (especially the ends, where people try to pry them off,
and
> cut a small slit to remove them, then reuse them.) I would install
a
> fresh set of silicon hoses with a fat wall (so they don't
collapse
> under vacuum) on any car over ~4 years old. The engine
compartments
> are kinda toasty, does wonders for rubber
:)
>
> IC PIPE COUPLINGS. These are irritating. You can't usually
tell
> visually if they leak or not. Factory ones are usually great,
but
> aftermarket? Man, I've seen some funny shit installed. The
worst
> things are those plumbing hardware, pure rubber ones. These have
no
> braided reinforcements/webbing, so they pretty much expand
like
> balloons. 20psi, with the engine moving back and forth in the
engine
> compartment between shifts, makes these rip/pop/slip off. Even
the
> HKS
> couplings, the orange ones, have had problems with
chaffing. As the
> engine moves, it flexes, over time, and with boost, it
rips through
> the rubber/silicon/thread reinforcement, and creates an
invisible
> (mostly) leak. Ahmed's 3000gt had a leak at the factory
plastic
> Y-pipe, the rubber o-ring was deformed, and it created a
massive
> leak.
> Possibly, this is what caused TWO sets of UPGRADE
turbos to fail, I
> feel for you Ahmed, whats up with your car
now?
>
> INJECTOR O-RINGS. The rings that insulate the TIP of the
injector
> that
> goes into the intake plenum. Over time, they get
hard as rocks, and
> just don't seal anymore. I've seen two cars that leak
at this point,
> my Stealth included. This could also be a somewhat
dangerous problem,
> if fuel were to somehow reverse (with a large leak),
and spray out
> around the injector.
>
> LEAKS FROM HARD
PIPES, AND IC. Rare, but can't overlook them. The
> leaks usually occur at
weld points, but on some factory intercoolers,
> the pipe that goes up top
into the engine compartment, it can
> corrode,
> and you end up with
pin holes. Not a large leak source, but still
> need
> attention. JB
weld on the OUTSIDE, followed with a proper
> primer/paint, will take care
of the problem. Ricky had a new GREDDY
> FMIC, and it had a defect in the
MIG/TIG weld on one of the in/out
> elbows. Right where the welding was
started and ended, it didn't
> quite
> meet, and he ended up with a
visible hole, which leaked about 5-8 psi
> at 25. Again, JB weld fixed
this easily. JB weld will work for up to
> ~1/4" size holes, any larger
than that, and you end up with too much
> "psi" pushing on the large JB
weld surface area. Avoid repairs from
> the inside, as it can fall off,
then it may go through the engine.
> Just confirmed another Greddy FMIC
owner having the same problem...
> and Greddy won't do anything about
it.
>
> BOOST GAUGE COUPLINGS. Often, weird plastic
hoses/tees/fittings are
> used to connect boost gauges. These have been
known to leak, but not
> significant amounts. However, it may cause a
faulty boost reading
> (lower than what it really is).
>
>
LEAKS FROM THROTTLE BODY GASKETS, AND ASSOCIATED PARTS. Only Ken's
>
car
> had this. The ISC on his throttle body had no gasket, and just
leaked
> everywhere around it. He also had an IC coupling with a leak.
I'm
> amazed he even had boost and ran the quick/fast numbers he
did!
>
> Make your own tester, or find someone that has one, and get
your
> stuff
> tested. You might be surprised to find that your
turbo(s) have been
> working superduty to overcome a leak.
>
>
This is a link to someone's boost tester, mine is different, but I'm
>
sure they all work the same,
>
>
http://www.nx2k.com/eclipse/pressuretesterpage.htm>
>
Vineet Singh
>
http://chi.dsm.org -
"ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With Class!"
>
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM & 3/S
Service manuals on CDROM
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
> Do You
Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
>
http://im.yahoo.com/>
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:21:57
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.
Thanks
Kevin. I have to admit I am amazed but also pleased. This will
make my life a
lot easier. I am looking forward to seeing the parts'
descriptions and
pictures. No sense in "re-inventing the wheel". I
chalk up my comments about
leakage to my nerdish error of trying to
predict action and results by using
technical specs and diagrams. :)
Now if I could only learn that lesson
regarding turbo performance. :)
Thanks Kevin and Vineet again for some
practical tests. I am
convinced that I have a pressure leak somewhere that is
preventing me
from taking full advantage of my 15G turbos and other
mods.
Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
-->
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Schappell" <
kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "'Jeff
Lucius'" <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>;
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:06 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Post I sent to the
DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
well.
Jeff,
I checked mine a few
weeks ago and had no problems with leaking past
the
rings or out the
exhaust. It held 15 PSI no problem. I will take
some pics
of
my setup and post soon. It only takes 5 minutes to get the
filter
and
MAF off and hook up the adapter. I used a spray bottle
with
dishwashing
liquid in it, to locate the smallest leaks. Just
look for the
bubbles :-)
Good luck,
Kevin
Schappell
Learn more about your car
http://www.AutoEducation.comOnline
Mobile Audio SuperStore
http://mobilesounds.vstorecar.com3SI
members.... you have to see this page
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Jeff Lucius
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:10 AM
>
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S
as
>
well.
>
>
> Thanks Vineet. Some pictures of this setup for 3S
cars would be
> helpful. Unlike our 4-cylinder DSM brothers, where 2
cylinders can
be
> at TDC and 2 at BDC and all valves closed, our
6-cylinder engines
> always have at least 2 cylinders with intake and
exhaust valves
open.
> In other words, at any given time there are only
and always two
> intake valves open.
>
> So you pressurized
the intake system/engine on your VR4 and it
held,
> not leaking past
rings or spooling the turbos through the exhaust
> valves?
>
>
I need to pressurize the intake system in my car to test for leaks
> this
winter. I was going to start right after the turbos (no
pressure
>
before the turbos) and stop between the Y-pipe and TB. If that
checks
>
out OK, then I was going to make some sort of sheet-metal/gasket
>
arrangement to block off the plenum at the manifold to check the
>
TB/hoses and plenum/hoses.
>
> Has anybody else performed these
tests on 3S cars? Comments and
> advice before I undertake this would be
appreciated.
>
> Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
> -->
http://www.stealth316.com/>
__________________________________________________
Do
You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:51:41
-0400
From: "Heikki Pikkujamsa" <
hpikkujamsa@compuserve.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
well.
Jeff,
I have tried this twice by hooking up air compressor
outlet pipe with
adapter into the air inlet before MAF. The strange thing is
that on my first
try I had no leaking thru valves, but on the second time
couple weeks after
I could hear leaking sound inside the engine. I tried to
crank the engine
bit to close the valves but it still leaked. I think you
must get all valves
closed in order to pressurize the engine. Or I could be
wrong and I have a
leaking (burnt) valve or hole in the
piston...
Still, by turning the compressor pressure regulator up I could
pressurize
the engine to 20psi, but at that point you could really hear the
blow-by
inside the engine. Where it was coming from I have no clue. Also,
little oil
was blown past the oil filler cap.
Did I find any leaks,
yes. Very small leak thru throttle body butterfly (?)
O-ring.
Heikki
Pikkujamsa
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Jeff Lucius
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:22 AM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stCc: Kevin
Schappell
Subject: Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S
as
well.
Thanks Kevin. I have to admit I am amazed but also
pleased. This will
make my life a lot easier. I am looking forward to seeing
the parts'
descriptions and pictures. No sense in "re-inventing the wheel".
I
chalk up my comments about leakage to my nerdish error of trying
to
predict action and results by using technical specs and diagrams.
:)
Now if I could only learn that lesson regarding turbo performance.
:)
Thanks Kevin and Vineet again for some practical tests. I
am
convinced that I have a pressure leak somewhere that is preventing
me
from taking full advantage of my 15G turbos and other mods.
Jeff
Lucius, 3SI #476
-->
http://www.stealth316.com/***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:24:40
-0400
From: John <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Mods
Opinion & Help???
Hey gang,
This is John, with the 94 Yellow
TT who set up the Apexi AVC-R a few
months ago. Everything works great,
but I would like even more power,
so I just wanted to run a few things by you
guys and maybe you can tell
me if I really need them. The majority of
items and prices I got from
Dynamic Racing from Matt Monett (maybe some of
you know him). I t is
not that I don't trust his word, but the whole
upgrade seems a little
more expensive than I thought, and I was just
wondering what would
benefit me the most. I also wanted to know if
these are descent
prices. Here is the exact quote I got from Dynamic
Racing with the
aproximate HP rating.
650hp-675hp
gt-357
turbos $2449
HKS side mount inter coolers $1599
HKS Hard
pipe kit $799
ARC-2 fuel controler $1029
720cc injectors
$119 x 6
denso fuel pump $249
underdrive pulley $179
belt
set $39
ATR down pipe $319
ATR cat-back $699
Triad
Alcohol Injection System $599
G-force ECU up-grade $799
25psi
of boost
RPS stage 3 clutch $519 (or muller 2
disk)
800hp
gt-368 turbos $3250
GT-368 frunt moune
intercooler $3349
ARC-2 fuel controler $1029
higher flow
MAF upgrade on ARC-2 $200
denso 720cc injectors set to 50psi static
$119 x 6
custom twin denso pump fuel system w/ 1 to 1 rizing rate regulator
$2000
underdrive pulley $179
belt set $39
ATR down
pipe $319
ATR cat-back $699
Triad Alcohol Injection
System $599
G-force ECU up-grade $799
30spi of boost
race
gas
muller 2 disk clutch $2499
I did not understand everything
on this list, and I did write Dynamic
Racing back askking them, but they
haven't responded yet. For example,
in the 650HP configuration, do they
mean that I have to run 25 PSI to
get 650HP? Is the ARC-2 fuel
controller the same as the APEXI AFC, or
is the APEXI AFC another device that
should be on my wish list? Are the
GT-357 the same with 15G, and GT368
the same with 17G turbos? Do you
guys know what RPMs the different size
turbos (including 13Gs) are fully
spooled up at? Do I really need the
bigger intercooler for the 800HP
configuration? Anyways, I am looking
to get at least about 600HP, and
as much as possible as long as the price is
reasonable. One other
thing, does anyone know how much labor would cost
to do setup like this?
Out of everything on both of these lists, I don't
think I would buy the
clutch at the begining (well not until my stock one
failed). Just so
you guys know, I am not going to do any racing on the
track. It will be
an everyday driver, with an occasional race at a
stoplight or the
highway. I figured under normal driving conditions, my
20K mmile old
clutch should hold up for a little while even with the new
mods
(hopefully soon)...
I also want to lower my car with I guess
Einbach lowering springs, which
I saw are not all that expensive (around
$300), but do I need to replace
my struts as well, or will they hold up under
more pressure. Will my
tires suffer much on wear because of the lowered
springs?
I know I asked you guys a lot of questions, but you guys are the
ONLY
guys I trust when it comes to these kind of things since you are
not
biased towards any particular answer just because you are trying to
sell
it to me...
Thanks in advance for evrybody's patience with me
and my brother Mike(95
Red VR-4) with all of our questions.
John
Raicu
94 Yellow TT
http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~iraicu/main_personal_cars.htm734-657-3343
Detroit
MetroArea
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:43:11
+0100
From: Gordon Tyrrell <
gordon.tyrrell@openet-int.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Strange behaviour????
A quick question and hope fully some nice
easy solutions to my problem (for
once in my life a nice easy solution would
be pleasent)
Firstly the car:
1993 japanese import VR4 with
61,000miles
HKS EVC IV fitted
K&N Filter charger fitted
Higher flow
fuel pump about to be fitted
The problem:
With the boost controller
off all is well. 6-7psi max boost and car runs
ok(ish)
With controller set
to .9bar I get a serious increase in acceleration and
the car holds .8bar to
the redline. Sometimes while doing this I get the
engine check light coming
on and in order to get it off I need to turn the
controller off and then run
on boost cycle and out it goes. My mechanic
reckons I might be getting knock
when I run the higher boost and wants to
tune the car up to run rich along
with fitting the fuel pump.
Has anyone else run into this
problem??
Also what should he be reading when he does the anal probe on
the exhaust in
order to get the car running rich??
Also the car will
not tickover with the a/c switched on. If I sit ticking
over and turn off the
a/c the revs drop and the car cuts out. I'm guessing
both problems are
related.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Gordon
Dublin,
Ireland
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:52:31
EDT
From:
COMETOTHEZOO@aol.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as well.
When
pressure testing my system I found 3 leaks. I had no valve leakage, but
with
the leaks I was losing 5 psi. The most important thing to remember,
after
sealing these leaks, is that your boost controller will not be
functioning
the same as it was set with the leaks. So watch your boost guage
carefully
as to not overboost. I had a 5 psi leak at 15psi on the regulator.
So when
sealed the boost spiked to 20 psi when it was originally set at 15
psi with
the leaks.
94 3000 VR4
http://hometown.aol.com/cometothezoo/Mike
Murray
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:57:49
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Mods Opinion & Help???
John, too many questions! I'll
respond to one.
>> "For example, in the 650HP configuration, do
they mean that I have
to run 25 PSI to get 650HP?"
Here's how you can
figure how much boost is needed to produce a
certain level of power. Let's
take 650 HP from our 3L motor as an
example. At the very best, our engines
may have a 0.5 BSFC, meaning
that 325 lb/hr of fuel would be needed to get
650 HP. The best power
is made near a 12:1 A/F (or 12.5). So 12 times 325 or
3900 lb/hr of
air would be needed (at least!). Our engines make their best
power at
about 6000 RPM. Assuming we could actually completely fill
each
cylinder (100% volumetric efficiency) with compressed
air/fuel
mixture, our 3L (actually 2.972L) engine would consume about 318
CFM.
At 318 CFM volume flow, or 19,080 CF per hour, and 3900 lb/hr
mass
flow, air must weigh about 0.2 lb/CF (that's density BTW). So now
the
question is what temperature and pressure gives us that density.
You
can do this easily with the Calculators available from the Tech
Page
at my web site.
0.2 lb/CF density is equivalent to the following
combinations of temp
and press.
100ºF and 42 psi
150ºF and 46
psi
200ºF and 50 psi
250ºF and 53 psi
How cool you can make that
400ºF to 550ºF air coming out of the turbo
at these pressures determines what
pressure you will need. At sea
level, that 42 psi is about 28 psi of boost
(42-14) and that 53 psi
is about 39 psi of boost.
But of course, who
makes turbos that can support a pressure of ratio
of over 3:1 (42/14=3) that
we can use and who makes that mythical IC
setup with 100% efficiency and no
pressure loss? (The answer is
unfortunately no one.)
John, a
realistic target for our cars is 500-600 HP. If ANYBODY says
they can produce
650 to 800 HP without nitrous make them prove it
with a dyno measurement
(uncorrected results please).
Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
-->
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "John" <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Cc:
<
iraicu@cs.wayne.edu>; <
aa2345@wayne.edu>
Sent: Thursday,
October 26, 2000 9:24 AM
Subject: Team3S: Mods Opinion &
Help???
Hey gang,
This is John, with the 94 Yellow TT who set
up the Apexi AVC-R a few
months ago. Everything works great, but I
would like even more
power,
so I just wanted to run a few things by you
guys and maybe you can
tell
me if I really need them. The majority
of items and prices I got
from
Dynamic Racing from Matt Monett (maybe some
of you know him). I t is
not that I don't trust his word, but the whole
upgrade seems a little
more expensive than I thought, and I was just
wondering what would
benefit me the most. I also wanted to know if
these are descent
prices. Here is the exact quote I got from Dynamic
Racing with the
aproximate HP rating.
650hp-675hp
gt-357
turbos $2449
HKS side mount inter coolers $1599
HKS Hard
pipe kit $799
ARC-2 fuel controler $1029
720cc injectors
$119 x 6
denso fuel pump $249
underdrive pulley $179
belt
set $39
ATR down pipe $319
ATR cat-back $699
Triad
Alcohol Injection System $599
G-force ECU up-grade $799
25psi
of boost
RPS stage 3 clutch $519 (or muller 2
disk)
800hp
gt-368 turbos $3250
GT-368 frunt moune
intercooler $3349
ARC-2 fuel controler $1029
higher flow
MAF upgrade on ARC-2 $200
denso 720cc injectors set to 50psi static
$119 x 6
custom twin denso pump fuel system w/ 1 to 1 rizing rate
regulator
$2000
underdrive pulley $179
belt set
$39
ATR down pipe $319
ATR cat-back $699
Triad Alcohol
Injection System $599
G-force ECU up-grade $799
30spi of
boost
race gas
muller 2 disk clutch $2499
I did not
understand everything on this list, and I did write Dynamic
Racing back
askking them, but they haven't responded yet. For
example,
in the
650HP configuration, do they mean that I have to run 25 PSI to
get
650HP? Is the ARC-2 fuel controller the same as the APEXI AFC,
or
is
the APEXI AFC another device that should be on my wish list?
Are
the
GT-357 the same with 15G, and GT368 the same with 17G
turbos? Do you
guys know what RPMs the different size turbos (including
13Gs) are
fully
spooled up at? Do I really need the bigger
intercooler for the 800HP
configuration? Anyways, I am looking to get
at least about 600HP,
and
as much as possible as long as the price is
reasonable. One other
thing, does anyone know how much labor would cost
to do setup like
this?
Out of everything on both of these lists, I
don't think I would buy
the
clutch at the begining (well not until my
stock one failed). Just so
you guys know, I am not going to do any
racing on the track. It will
be
an everyday driver, with an
occasional race at a stoplight or the
highway. I figured under normal
driving conditions, my 20K mmile old
clutch should hold up for a little while
even with the new mods
(hopefully soon)...
I also want to lower my car
with I guess Einbach lowering springs,
which
I saw are not all that
expensive (around $300), but do I need to
replace
my struts as well, or
will they hold up under more pressure. Will my
tires suffer much on
wear because of the lowered springs?
I know I asked you guys a lot of
questions, but you guys are the ONLY
guys I trust when it comes to these kind
of things since you are not
biased towards any particular answer just because
you are trying to
sell
it to me...
Thanks in advance for
evrybody's patience with me and my brother
Mike(95
Red VR-4) with all of
our questions.
John Raicu
94 Yellow TT
http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~iraicu/main_personal_cars.htm734-657-3343
Detroit
MetroArea
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:12:59
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Mods Opinion & Help???
> 650hp-675hp
> gt-357
turbos $2449
> HKS side mount inter coolers
$1599
> HKS Hard pipe kit $799
> ARC-2 fuel controler
$1029
> 720cc injectors $119 x 6
> denso fuel pump
$249
> underdrive pulley $179
> belt set $39
> ATR
down pipe $319
> ATR cat-back $699
> Triad Alcohol
Injection System $599
> G-force ECU up-grade $799
>
25psi of boost
> RPS stage 3 clutch $519 (or muller 2
disk)
For street driving, the intercoolers and pipe kit aren't really
required
(and are a waste of money). Intercoolers will help when you
are on the gas
hard for a while. On the street, you'll hit 100mph in
about 10 seconds (or
less) so we aren't really talking sustained high
boost.
Underdrive pulley is something you'll need to consider.
You'll be trading
possible main bearing wear and higher crank stresses for a
few HP. Your
decision to make whether it is worth it or
not.
Triad AIS I haven't seen/used/heard-of yet. I'm assuming it is
similar to
water injection, but uses alcohol instead. Probably lets you
get a little
more boost safely with pump gas.
I wouldn't run 25 psi of
boost on a car that didn't have forged pistons, and
you won't be running that
much boost on the street with pump gas anyways.
I don't see any gauges on
that list. Should have at least dual EGT if you
are trying to get that
much power out of it.
> For example, in the 650HP configuration, do
they
> mean that I have to run 25 PSI to get
650HP?
Yes.
> Is the ARC-2 fuel controller the same as
the
> APEXI AFC, or is the APEXI AFC another device
> that should be
on my wish list?
ARC-2 will work better than the AFC with injectors
larger than 550cc, and
eliminates the rather restrictive stock airflow meter
and replaces it with a
hotwire-style MAF setup.
> Are the GT-357
the same with 15G, and GT368 the
> same with 17G turbos? Do you guys
know what RPMs
> the different size turbos (including 13Gs) are
>
fully spooled up at? Do I really need the bigger
> intercooler for
the 800HP configuration?
GT-357's have a higher flow than 15G's (480cfm
vs. 404cfm) and the 368SX's
supposedly have 608cfm. Either of the two
choices they gave have more flow
than the 15G. With more flow, you are
going to see slower spoolup.
Spool isn't necessarily dependent on RPM - I
can get full boost (~17 psi) as
low as 3000 RPM on my ported 15G's, but it
takes a long time to get to that
pressure. At 4000 RPM the response is
about like the 9b's were, at 4500 RPM
the response is instantaneous.
So, you have to consider response into the
equation as well.
You'll
probably need the bigger intercooler if you tried to get 800 HP since
at 30
psi the air temps at the turbo outlets will be insanely high and you
need to
get that back down to something reasonable before it gets into
the
motor.
> Anyways, I am looking to get at least about
600HP,
> and as much as possible as long as the price is
>
reasonable. One other thing, does anyone know how
> much labor would
cost to do setup like this?
Labor? Figure somewhere around $3000 to
get it all tuned in correctly,
assuming you can find a shop capable of doing
it the right way.
> Out of everything on both of these lists, I
don't
> think I would buy the clutch at the begining (well
> not
until my stock one failed). Just so you guys
> know, I am not going
to do any racing on the track.
> It will be an everyday driver, with an
occasional
> race at a stoplight or the highway. I figured
>
under normal driving conditions, my 20K mmile
> old clutch should hold up
for a little while even
> with the new mods (hopefully
soon)...
This is really overkill for a street car. The bigger the
turbos, the less
fun it will be as a daily driver. I think my 15G's are
on the edge of good
response for street driving, and both choices you are
considering are larger
than those.
Buy the clutch - the stock clutch
doesn't have enough clamping force to hold
600-800 HP. My still-good
stock clutch will spin like mad if I speed shift
with only 17 psi of
boost. At the dragstip on race gas it was pretty much
useless.
I'm going to drop in an ACT clutch.
Okay, now for the skeptical part
of my opinion:
Jack Tertadian holds the title of the quickest/fastest 3/S
car. He ran a
10.810 @ 128.44. Using the standard guesstimate
ET/Speed to horsepower
calculations he has somewhere in the area of 626 to
661 HP, and that was
using nitrous on top of all the other work he has done
on the car.
Now we've got Matt Monett's timeslip from Roswell where he
ran 11.74 @
120.126. Giving his car the same assumed weight I gave
Jack's (4000
pounds), we get somewhere between 489 and 541 horsepower.
If he removed
weight from the car, those numbers get worse. If we take
the further
"suspicious" data of his "corrected" time of 11.22 @ 125 then we
get
horsepower numbers of 560 to 610.
A FAR cry from 800 HP, and
barely into the 600HP range. I'm not sure how
you can sell upgrade
packages up to 800HP when your own test car isn't
putting out that kind of
power.
With the calculator, a rough dragstrip run on an 800HP 3/S should
net a 10.0
@ 137 without stripping anything out of the car, running full 3800
pound
weight and a 200 pound driver. Nobody is anywhere NEAR that at
this point
in time.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:14:02
+0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Mods Opinion & Help???
>650hp-675hp
>gt-357
turbos $2449
>720cc injectors $119 x 6
>Triad Alcohol
Injection System $599
What do you want an alcohol injection for ...
you already have 720cc injectors
>G-force ECU up-grade
$799
What should it be for ?
>25psi of boost
25psi on
the 357 .. on what rpm ?
Hmm, maybe close to 600hp not more. You can give
the dyno oprator 10 bucks
and he changes the param so you'll see 650 on the
sheet ;-)
>800hp
>custom twin denso pump fuel system w/ 1 to 1
rizing rate regulator $2000
Umpf ?? Has this already been done ? Pictures
pleazze :-)
>30spi of boost
Yes, sure ! And what will the
pistons, rings and gasket saying to this
pressure ? To reach more than 650hp
internal work, especially on the heads
for flow and pistons to resist must
be done for sure !
>in the 650HP configuration, do they mean that I
have to run 25 PSI to
>get 650HP?
Yes, boost is the key
!
> Is the ARC-2 fuel controller the same as the APEXI
AFC, or
>is the APEXI AFC another device that should be on my wish
list?
No, you don't need any AFC, although you can fine tune the system
endlessly
with it :-)
>Are the GT-357 the same with 15G, and GT368
the same with 17G turbos?
No 357 are bigger than 15g and the 368 are in
the size of 20g
> Do you guys know what RPMs the different size
turbos (including 13Gs)
> are fully
>spooled up at?
No,
highly depends on exhaust, intake, intercooler......
> Do
I really need the bigger intercooler for the 800HP
You already need it
after 600hp.
>Anyways, I am looking to get at least about 600HP,
and
>as much as possible as long as the price is reasonable. One
other
>thing, does anyone know how much labor would cost to do setup like
this?
Double the price for the parts when not done by
yourselfs.
IMHO, the price will become much higher after the rebuild as
to reach a
high power setup the main stuff in the engine must be done ! I
just
wondered why Matt didn't offer you this ....
Good luck and fill
up the wallet :)
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:43:50
-0500
From: "Vineet Singh \(3S\)" <
stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Post I sent to the DSM digest, applies to 3/S as
well.
>Thanks Vineet. Some pictures of this setup for 3S cars would
be
helpful. Unlike our 4-cylinder DSM brothers, where 2 cylinders can
be
at TDC and 2 at BDC and all valves closed, our 6-cylinder
engines
always have at least 2 cylinders with intake and exhaust valves
open.
In other words, at any given time there are only and always
two
intake valves open.
No problem... sorry, I didn't take any
pictures of the installed
setup, but I will take a pic of the testers I made,
DSM and 3/S.
Basically it just sits where the factory rubber "t" sits, the
part
that has the BOV and MAS/filter attached to it.
We tested 3 3/S
cars so far... and it just works. I know that the
4cyl's, the valves are all
pretty much closed when the engine is off
(easiest spot in the cycle to stop
turning). With the v6, I wasn't too
sure that it would all seal past the tb.
All I did was try it, and it
worked, I did have to put more air pressure into
the Stealth than what
was being read... (even though I fixed the leaks) I put
25 psi in, and
only see 19 on the gauge, but heard no leaks from the IC
system, so I
assume there was some small amount of leakage internally in
the
engine, but the difference in the type of sound between a leak
INSIDE
your engine (normal) is distinguishable from a leak in your IC
system,
or even intake plenum/injector orings.
Perhaps even though two
intake valves are open, that doesn't mean you
won't have a seal, because the
exhaust valves are probably shut on
that cylinder, you only need one set to
be closed while testing (I
guess this is where the rest of the boost was
going, into a combustion
chamber or two, and past the rings, but still, you
can maintain enough
pressure for a test.)
Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM
& 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:55:02
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Strange behaviour????
Gordon,
With a 1993 VR4 you can
hook up a TMO datalogger to check for knock,
other engine operation, and
trouble codes. No guessing. TMO links and
other info can be found on the
Links and Tech Pages at my web site.
Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
-->
http://www.stealth316.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Tyrrell" <
gordon.tyrrell@openet-int.com>
Cc:
<
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, October 26, 2000 9:43 AM
Subject: Team3S: Strange
behaviour????
A quick question and hope fully some nice easy
solutions to my
problem (for
once in my life a nice easy solution would be
pleasent)
Firstly the car:
1993 japanese import VR4 with
61,000miles
HKS EVC IV fitted
K&N Filter charger fitted
Higher flow
fuel pump about to be fitted
The problem:
With the boost controller
off all is well. 6-7psi max boost and car
runs ok(ish) With controller set to
.9bar I get a serious increase in
acceleration and the car holds .8bar to the
redline. Sometimes while
doing this I get the engine check light coming on
and in order to get
it off I need to turn the controller off and then run on
boost cycle
and out it goes. My mechanic reckons I might be getting knock
when I
run the higher boost and wants to tune the car up to run rich
along
with fitting the fuel pump.
Has anyone else run into this
problem??
Also what should he be reading when he does the anal probe on
the
exhaust in order to get the car running rich??
Also the car will
not tickover with the a/c switched on. If I sit
ticking over and turn off the
a/c the revs drop and the car cuts out.
I'm guessing both problems are
related.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Gordon
Dublin,
Ireland
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End of team3s V1
#307
*********************