team3s
Monday, October 9
2000
Volume 01 : Number
288
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:24:29 -0400
From:
ukyo@avana.netSubject: Team3S: '91 Stealth
RT / TT
Anyone looking for a first gen Stealth RT /TT in the
Atlanta
area should check out Landmark Dodge (just
South of Atlanta). They
have a white '91 Stealth RT /
TT with only 72K on it. It has almost
flawless red
leather interior and it runs great. The only down
points I could find to it were the stereo not working
properly and it's
missing a tailpipe cover. Other than
that this car is in primo
conditon... no dents, no
scratches.
The asking price is at
$11,995, but they told me they
would let it go for $11K. I'm sure they
would go lower
if someone were to negotiate with them better than I
do. :)
I'm not too big on the position of the Stealth's
spoiler, so I am going to pass on this one and keep on
with my search
for a '94 - '97 VR4 for around $15K.
Besides, I really want a six
speed tranny. :)
Just thought I'd give you guys a heads up on that
car.
Hope this helps someone.
- --Travis
'97 3000GT (Base +
K&N FIPK sans Resonator Bottle / Red)
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:50:38
-0500
From: "Walton C. Gibson" <
kalla@tripoint.org>
Subject: Team3S:
1996 3000GT base for sale
I have decided I need to sell my '96. It's red,
1996 base model.
54,500 miles. Black dash with tan cloth and trim interior.
Infinity
premium sound system with 6 disc changer. Interior is in super
condition, I have never spilled or stained anything in the car.
I am
the second owner. I have maintained this car as well as I possibly
can. I
have always used a nose mask, which I will give with the car.
It has a few
paint chips, which should be expected having driven it
54k miles. There is
some moisture in the left headlight. It was that
way when I bought it.
Fairly new Kelly tires, about a year and a half old, ~75 percent
tread
left on them. Synthetic oil only, and I have always changed it myself.
K&N airbox filter. No modifications otherwise. This car has no
mechanical problems whatsoever.
This car is located in Huntsville,
AL. I ask $16,000.
some pictures:
http://www.tripoint.org/blah/pic2.jpg
http://www.tripoint.org/blah/pic4.jpg
http://www.tripoint.org/blah/pic5.jpg
regards,
Walton C. Gibson
kalla@tripoint.org***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 09:32:56
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Chewing up Kuhmos III
You may recall that I reported problems
with excessive wear on a new set of
Kuhmos -- cording one and nearly cording
another after 1+ events.
Here's what we did:
1. Adjusted camber
to -3 deg, toe to +0.10. Several of you said to do
this, because Kuhmos like
more camber.
2. Bought two new Kuhmos from Tire Rack shaved and heat
treated. This was
Tire Rack's recommendation .
It appears that Tire
Rack just shaved down the huge outer shoulder and left
the rest of the tire
alone. Apparently, that big block of tread flexes and
chunks, runs up high
temps, and then wears fast. Shaving cures that.
We monitored the tires
very carefully at Road America this weekend and --
wonder of wonders -- it
worked!
I was prepared to rotate the fronts side to side because RA will
wear the
left tires more than the right, but I checked the wear indicators
very
carefully all weekend, and both tires were wearing evenly. I even had
the
chief instructors look them over (it was bloody freezing out there up
in
Wisconsin in October, and I wasn't gonna change any tires if I didn't
have
to).
Of course, MY instructor said if I wasn't wearing out the
lefts then I
wasn't going fast enough through 1, 7, the kink and Canada
Corner (turning
2:51 laps, or 80+ mph average somebody said). OK, so
maybe I wasn't running
hard enough to scuff them up really good, but I was
just deleriously happy
to get through the weekend without destroying another
set of tires!
Another factor: It was dang cold up there, so it wasn't
like running a
track in August. It took a long time to get heat into the
tires, so they
didn't stick all that well until 5 or 6 laps into the session.
I ran lap
times in one session, and the times came down one second per lap
until the
last, fastest lap before the checker.
In any case, if you
are having wear problems with your Kuhmos, you might
try one or both of these
solutions.
Rich/94 Mitsubish 3000GT VR4 twin turbo
AWD
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:02:45
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Chewing up Kuhmos III
What about the 300 mile drive on the tires ---- did
you or didn't you ?? and what
was the result
??
Jim
berry
========================================================
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>
> Here's what we did:
> 1. Adjusted camber to -3 deg, toe to
+0.10. Several of you said to do
> this, because Kuhmos like more
camber.
> 2. Bought two new Kuhmos from Tire Rack shaved and heat
treated. This was
> Tire Rack's recommendation .
>
> It
appears that Tire Rack just shaved down the huge outer shoulder and left
>
the rest of the tire alone. Apparently, that big block of tread flexes
and
> chunks, runs up high temps, and then wears fast. Shaving cures that.
>
> We monitored the tires very carefully at Road America this
weekend and --
> wonder of wonders -- it worked!
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:19:00
-0700
From: "Geddes, Brian J" <
brian.j.geddes@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Clutch vibration blossoms into engine lockup!!
Below is a post I
sent last week about some clutch weirdness that developed
on Thursday
evening. Since then, things have gotten...um...interesting.
I
drove my car after work on Friday to a friend's house, still
experiencing
the clutch vibration/grinding, but otherwise the engine was
sounding normal.
I parked and shut off the car, but when I tried to start the
car 5 minutes
later it wouldn't turn over. The starter clicked, but it
wasn't a
solonoid-type click; it sounded more metalic, like the starter
clicking
against the flywheel.
My first thought was that the
throwout bearing was shot and the clutch
wasn't disengaging. So, I
tried taking off the e-brake and pushing in the
clutch (my car was parked
facing up a gentle incline)...and the car rolled
backwards freely.
Scratch that idea. Next I put it in reverse, let out the
clutch and
took off the e-brake, expecting it to roll back. The car didn't
move at
all. We broke out a socket wrench, put the car in neutral and
pushed in
the clutch, and tried to turn the crankshaft pulley nut by hand.
Once again,
it wouldn't budge.
In a flash of brilliance, my friends and I
decided to try to push-start the
car. We wheeled it around to face down
the hill, and gave it a running
start. When I dropped the clutch (in
1st) the wheels slammed to a stop.
The car lurched forward on the suspension,
and then sprung back. The engine
didn't turn over at all.
:(
Right now my car is at the local Mitsu dealership to determine the
problem.
I'm really afraid that the engine somehow managed to seize.
The thing is,
my oil pressure and temp gauges were fine when I was driving,
and the engine
sounded perfectly normal. The oil was a little low, but
only about 1/2 a
quart.
In any case, I'm totally stumped as to
the cause. The only thing I can
think of is that a piece of the clutch
somehow managed to lodge itself
firmly against the flywheel, not allowing the
engine to turn. Now I get to
sit through the agonizing wait for the
call back from the service dept.
I'll post results when I know more.
-
- Brian
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geddes,
Brian J [
mailto:brian.j.geddes@intel.com]
>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 9:01 AM
> To: Starnet Mailing List
(E-mail); Team3S Mailing List (E-mail)
> Subject: Clutch problem
>
>
> All -
>
> The clutch in my '96 3000 (base)
developed a bit of weirdness
> last night
> that's got me
puzzled. Here are the symptoms:
>
> - When driving at very
low RPM's (~1000-1500) I can hear a
> soft clicking
> sound.
If I had to guess at the location, I'd place it just
> to the right
of
> the accelerator pedal. I do not hear the clicking at higher
engine
> speeds...perhaps because of engine noise.
> - When I push
in the clutch pedal after driving at these low
> speeds, there
> is
some vibration in the clutch pedal on the way down to the
> floor, but
the
> vibration stops after the clutch is fully disengaged. As I
> push in the
> pedal, I also hear a rhythmic grinding/clicking
noise in
> direct proportion
> to the RPM's. I always hear
this at low RPM's, but only
> intermittently at
> higher
RPM's. I don't get this noise/vibration if I push the
> clutch
pedal
> while the car is idling at a stop.
>
> The clutch is
still grabbing very firmly, and behaves
> perfectly normal when
>
fully engaged. Sometimes, pumping the clutch pedal several times
can
> alleviate the symptoms for a little while. I'm guessing that
this is
> perhaps an adjustment issue, but I'm certainly no expert
> mechanic. So, the
> questions are: 1) What's wrong
with my clutch? and 2) Is
> this an easy
> in-my-garage fix,
or should I take it to a dealer?
>
> Thanks,
> -
Brian
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:19:39
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch vibration blossoms into engine lockup!!
Personally..I
think you dropped a shaft in your tranny.
Its dead Jim.
Odd how
the starter wont do anything...and you experienced 0 motor issues.
On
Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Geddes, Brian J wrote:
> Below is a post I sent last
week about some clutch weirdness that developed
> on Thursday
evening. Since then, things have gotten...um...interesting.
I
> drove my car after work on Friday to a friend's house, still
experiencing
> the clutch vibration/grinding, but otherwise the engine was
sounding normal.
> I parked and shut off the car, but when I tried to
start the car 5 minutes
> later it wouldn't turn over. The starter
clicked, but it wasn't a
> solonoid-type click; it sounded more metalic,
like the starter clicking
> against the flywheel.
>
>
My first thought was that the throwout bearing was shot and the clutch
>
wasn't disengaging. So, I tried taking off the e-brake and pushing in
the
> clutch (my car was parked facing up a gentle incline)...and the car
rolled
> backwards freely. Scratch that idea. Next I put it in
reverse, let out the
> clutch and took off the e-brake, expecting it to
roll back. The car didn't
> move at all. We broke out a socket
wrench, put the car in neutral and
> pushed in the clutch, and tried to
turn the crankshaft pulley nut by hand.
> Once again, it wouldn't
budge.
>
> In a flash of brilliance, my friends and I
decided to try to push-start the
> car. We wheeled it around to face
down the hill, and gave it a running
> start. When I dropped the
clutch (in 1st) the wheels slammed to a stop.
> The car lurched forward on
the suspension, and then sprung back. The engine
> didn't turn over
at all. :(
>
> Right now my car is at the local Mitsu
dealership to determine the problem.
> I'm really afraid that the engine
somehow managed to seize. The thing is,
> my oil pressure and temp
gauges were fine when I was driving, and the engine
> sounded perfectly
normal. The oil was a little low, but only about 1/2 a
>
quart.
>
> In any case, I'm totally stumped as to the
cause. The only thing I can
> think of is that a piece of the clutch
somehow managed to lodge itself
> firmly against the flywheel, not
allowing the engine to turn. Now I get to
> sit through the
agonizing wait for the call back from the service dept.
> I'll post
results when I know more.
>
> - Brian
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geddes, Brian J [
mailto:brian.j.geddes@intel.com]
>
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 9:01 AM
> > To: Starnet Mailing
List (E-mail); Team3S Mailing List (E-mail)
> > Subject: Clutch
problem
> >
> >
> > All -
> >
>
> The clutch in my '96 3000 (base) developed a bit of weirdness
> >
last night
> > that's got me puzzled. Here are the
symptoms:
> >
> > - When driving at very low RPM's
(~1000-1500) I can hear a
> > soft clicking
> > sound.
If I had to guess at the location, I'd place it just
> > to the right
of
> > the accelerator pedal. I do not hear the clicking at
higher engine
> > speeds...perhaps because of engine noise.
>
> - When I push in the clutch pedal after driving at these low
> >
speeds, there
> > is some vibration in the clutch pedal on the way down
to the
> > floor, but the
> > vibration stops after the
clutch is fully disengaged. As I
> > push in the
> >
pedal, I also hear a rhythmic grinding/clicking noise in
> > direct
proportion
> > to the RPM's. I always hear this at low RPM's, but
only
> > intermittently at
> > higher RPM's. I don't
get this noise/vibration if I push the
> > clutch pedal
> >
while the car is idling at a stop.
> >
> > The clutch is
still grabbing very firmly, and behaves
> > perfectly normal
when
> > fully engaged. Sometimes, pumping the clutch pedal
several times can
> > alleviate the symptoms for a little while.
I'm guessing that this is
> > perhaps an adjustment issue, but I'm
certainly no expert
> > mechanic. So, the
> > questions
are: 1) What's wrong with my clutch? and 2) Is
> > this an
easy
> > in-my-garage fix, or should I take it to a dealer?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > - Brian
> >
>
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
|
The proven method to make a Supra race worthy, is to
|
| strip it down, and shove as many $20 bills as possible
|
| within
the cavity of the car
itself. |
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 09:26:34
-0700
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: intake plenum
> Has anybody refinished their intake
plenum? The finish coating on mine is
> peeling off and it looks like
crap. I would prefer not to polish it, I love
> the way polish looks but I
am too lazy to do it in the first place. I am
> getting ready to change my
plugs and I thought this would be a good time to
> fix this
uglyness.
You should be able to find a local machine shop that will bead
blast it for $10
or so. You can use a sanding block with fine sandpaper
to get the lettering
smooth & shiny again. Just make sure the
inside is CLEAN before you put it back
on. If they can't clean the
inside for you, you should be able to get it pretty
clean yourself with carb
cleaner and rags.
- --
Could you drive any better if I shoved that cell
phone up your a**?!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:30:32
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Road America Report
Q: What are the three most dangerous things
in the world?
A: 1. A jewish commando with an Uzi
machinegun.
2. A mugger with a straight
razor
3. A doctor in a brand new M3
The
doctors and internet millionaires are keeping my record alive. At 5 of
the 6
open track/driver school events I've attended, someone stuffed an M3
during
the event. At Road America this weekend, the Badger Bimmers staged
an event
where at least three cars bit the wall including -- you guessed it
- --
another M3.
It was bitterly cold. We bundled up in layers as the
snowflakes flew, and
still had to drive with the windows down. It took
several laps just to get
heat into the tires. At 3:00 pm on Saturday, as we
were getting ready for
the final session, ice and snow were gathering in the
tree-covered corners,
so they ended the day.
Next morning was equally
cold, but partially sunny and no snow. It warmed
up to just damncold on
Sunday, and we got in all four sessions.
The BMW club really believes
this stuff is a SCHOOL, fer Pete's sake, and
they make us attend classroom
sessions (where they take attendance!) and
then do exercises in the paddock
(braking, skid pads, autocrosses, etc).
I guess they don't understand
that most of us old farts with hot cars just
want to go out there and drive
fast -- like at Porsche club events, where
we get FIVE sessions a day and no
classrooms. I regard the autocross
exercises as a waste of tires for more
experienced drivers (I quit running
SCCA autocrosses long ago), but very
useful for novice drivers.
All seriousness aside (who said that? Let's
see how old YOU are), the
classroom sessions are very informative. We had a
dude who has been racing
since 19-ought-49, still wins SCCA races in his
D/SR, and sounds like Floyd
on Hee-Haw, but who knows every inch of Road
America along with every old
racing joke in the book. He was a hoot!
Knew his stuff, too. It's great to
go into the classroom after a session, ask
"Floyd" to diagram a corner, and
talk us through the proper line.
For
example, I had a problem at Canada Corner in selecting the proper gears
- --
if I shifted down to 2nd for the turn in, I was at 7200 rpm before
corner
out, and had to shift up whilst still in the corner. But if I
entered in 3rd,
I had to carry a lot of speed into the turn, taking it to
the rumble strips
on corner out, while the gravel pit beyond beckoned like
the Sirens. Floyd
and the classroom group decided that I should try it both
ways, and check my
exit speed as I completed 13-- the theory being that the
exit speed two
corners later would be a good indication of what the fastest
speed through
the three linked corners was.
Good plan. And if I had gotten any
unobstructed or noncompetitive laps, I
woulda tried it. Alas, half the time I
came to Canada Corner it was behind
a slower car. The other half of the time,
I had a fire-breathing Cobra R or
an M3 on my tail, so I never got a chance
to try the theory.
OK, I know what you're thinking: "Why didn't you just
let those cars go by?"
Because I had passed them originally.
It seems
like I could catch these guys easily. I'd run them down somewhere
on track,
and they would dutifully point me by as soon as I appeared in
their mirrors.
Next thing, they are all over me! Holy mackeral! Where'd
all that speed
come from? I had some tremendous dices with these guys, one
per
session. First the Cobra R, then a black M3 from someplace racing with
a roll
cage, and then a blue M3, driven by a guy who will be an instructor
next
year. Man, it's like the sight of a black Mitsubishi going by lights
their
fire or something!
I have scorned M3s and Cobras in my posts in
the past, but let me amend
those comments. An M3 or a Cobra, when driven by
someone who knows what he
is doing, is ferociously fast! I could not
believe that these guys were
hanging with me. We Mitsu drivers are not
accustomed to seeing lesser cars
in our mirrors.
But I got 'em!
I learned that by shifting down to 2nd at 5 and at Canada
Corner (throwing
out the anchor, my buddy Jeff Lacina calls it), I could
force them to brake a
little harder at corner entry. Then, with the AWD and
the turbos screaming, I
could pull away under sheer acceleration. I ate
them alive from 5 to 6 up the
hill, then from 7 to 8 (a flat out, early
apex righthander taken at about 80
mph), so I'd gain 50-100 yards or so by
the time we hit the Kink. I limit
myself to 90 through the Kink (and they
don't, being better drivers), so by
Canada Corner, all three would be up on
me again under braking. I 'd
throw out the anchor and gain it all back
from there to 14 and onto the front
straight. The Cobra R would catch me up
by the time we got to 1 (that is one
fast sumbitch!), while the M3s would
stay with me. I'd get 'em through 3, but
they would all catch up under
braking at 5. My car brakes OK, but it's
still a 3800-lb car, whilst the
M3 and the R are 3200 lb, so they brake much
better than I can.
Note: I woulda let any of those three cars by if they
had showed any
indication they want to pass - like flashing headlights or
pulling into the
passing lane. The black M3 could have gotten me if he really
wanted to (he
said he closed up on me every now and then just to show me he
could), and
the R could have gotten me with sheer top end if he had been
close enough
on any of the corners leading onto a straight -- but they all
seemed
content to just sit back there and scare the beejeesus out of
me.
I'll tell ya, it's really something to come screaming downhill into 5
at
125 mph with an M3 or a Cobra R on yer ass, bang on the binders, and
hope
the guy behind still has brakes! I hit 125 at three places -- 1, 5
and
Canada Corner -- and always with one of those three cars in my mirrors.
I
gotta get a boost controller if I am going to run with these kinds of
fast
dudes!
Afterward, it was cool to go shake hands and congratulate
each other on a
good run. It turns out that the black M3 was carrying a video
camera and
recorded our entire session, and he'll send me a copy.
Yeah, yeah, I know. We're not supposed to be racing out there. But
I
learned as much from dicing with those guys as I did from my instructor.
Of
course, it was my instructor, Jeff Whyte, who showed me the correct
lines
and smoothed out my transitions, making it possible to stay with
those
three fast cars.
But "Floyd" and the classroom group showed me
something really cool, too,
which I would not have tried without an M3 on my
butt. It seems there is an
access road intersection at the exit of 13, after
the bridge. Floyd showed
it to us on a diagram, illustrating where the rumble
strips are, with the
access road just beyond. The group discussed how you
could use that little
section if you came out of 13 too hot. So, at one
point, with one of the
M3s so close we could breed the two cars, I screamed
out of 13, crossed the
rumble strips at corner out, and used the access road
to gain another 6 ft
of road. This let me keep the power on for a launch
toward 14, while the M3
lifted to avoid the rumble strips. I musta gained 50
yards with that
maneuver, thanks to the class.
What a weekend!
Way to go, Badger Bimmers. I'll be back next year. With
studded snow tires
this time.
Rich
1994 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 twin turbo
Ground
Control/Eibachs, camber plates, lowered, Kuhmos
Porsche brakes, ss lines,
Hawk Blues, water injection to rotors
Stock engine.
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 11:32:30
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Chewing up Kuhmos III
At 09:02 AM 10/9/00 -0700, Jim Berry
wrote:
>What about the 300 mile drive on the tires ---- did you or didn't
you ??
and what
>was the result ??
We drove up on street
tires.
Rich'
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:37:27
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch vibration blossoms into engine lockup!!
>
Personally..I think you dropped a shaft in your tranny.
> Its dead
Jim.
If its the tranny, it shouldn't matter whether or not the clutch is
in - it
should be locked all the time and it shouldn't roll with the clutch
pushed
in. I'd vote along with the random piece of something jammed in
the
flywheel or some sort of potential engine problem. Only way to find
out is
to tear it down...
> ...clutch weirdness that developed
on
> Thursday evening. Since then, things have
>
gotten...um...interesting. I drove my car
> after work on Friday to
a friend's house,
> still experiencing the clutch
>
vibration/grinding, but otherwise the engine
> was sounding normal.
I parked and shut off
> the car, but when I tried to start the car
5
> minutes later it wouldn't turn over.
On a side-note, I'd
recommend NOT continuing to drive a car once it has
shown some symptoms that
indicate something is not right. There's a high
possibility that by
doing so you made a "simple" fix (or a cheap fix) into a
very major
repair.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:53:49
-0700
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rotor Update
John Christian wrote:
>
> Hi
Rich,
>
> Congrats on the great life of the Porterfields.
>
> Couple a questions:
> Are the Porterfields directional --- are
the veins
> curved unlike the stock Mitsu rotors??
My 1st gen
Porterfields are not directional. The veins are straight. I
believe
that Porterfield uses Brembo blanks.
> What is the
thickness?? 30 or 32mm
I THINK they are 32mm
> What is the
dia? 315, 322?
>
> I wanted to try the Hawk blue this season,
but won't
> get my TT running til next season. I did try the
Hawk
> Gold (HB-184-GOL for $185) but they transferred tooooo
> much
heat to the BIG REDS.
From John's praise, I decided to try the KFP pads
from Paul Weston,
mailto:WMSBrakes@aol.com, and they are
great! They still look (I didn't
measure) new after a weekend and 160
miles of track time. I should easily get
another two if not three
weekends from them. They did turn a little white so I
suppose I got
them to 1400 degrees F (stock 1st gen calipers & rotors, no
cooling
ducts). They still work awesome though. I didn't get any brake fade
or
spongy pedal. I did however warp my cryo treated Porterfields the
second day.
I had them machined and they should still last forever on the
street, or a good
while longer with track time.
See you,
Ken
-
--
Could you drive any better if I shoved that cell phone up your
a**?!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:48:55
-0500
From: "Walton C. Gibson" <
kalla@tripoint.org>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Rotor Update
On 9 Oct 2000, at 10:53, Ken Middaugh
wrote:
> John Christian wrote:
> >
> > Hi
Rich,
> did turn a little white so I suppose I got them to 1400 degrees
F
> (stock 1st gen calipers & rotors, no cooling ducts). They
still work
a question for the brake-knowledgable:
I have first-gen
vr-4 calipers. I know the stock brakes and pads just
aren't going to cut it
when I take it to a road course, so I planned to
upgrade to the
porterfields. However a friend of mine with a 2nd gen
vr-4 told me I should
upgrade to the bigger calipers and discs. How
much of a difference will it
make with the bigger calipers and rotors,
or will I be okay with the 1st gen
porterfields? I don't mind
upgrading the calipers and rotors, but how much
difference am I
likely to see ?
Walton C. Gibson
kalla@tripoint.org***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 20:54:48
+0200
From: Jim Matthews <
jim@the-matthews.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Road America Report
Rich,
Enjoyed your Road America
update, as always. These racing stories are almost
enough to get me to
move back home and sign up at Summit Point!! Anyway, it
encouraged me
to reread a few of the older posts, and I remember the following
paragraph
bothering me last time, so I thought I'd ask for clarification.
On 29
July 2000, Merritt wrote ("An outsider's look at a VR4"):
>
> Jeff
didn't mention it, but he told me that the 4WS really works on our
> car.
He was following me into 12, where we turn in at 80 mph and nail it,
> and
he said he could see the rear end turn in a microsecond after the front
>
tires turned. He thought for a minute that the rear had gotten loose,
but
> then he realized it was the 4WS helping with the turn-in, and the
car was
> just stepping out a bit. He said it was very smooth and appeared
to help
> the car get around the turn. Hmm...I wonder if we could increase
the 4WS
> bite to get a little oversteer?
The AWS in our cars
is same-phase (rears turn the same direction as the
fronts), so I understand
how your instructor might have seen the rear "turn in"
but don't know why
this would make the rear "loose" or "step out." Wouldn't you
want the
rears to steer OUT to induce oversteer? If so, and since
that's
desirable in your case, I wonder if there is a way to REVERSE the
behavior of
the AWS to make it OPPOSITE phase. I believe it's all
hydraulics, so maybe it's
as easy as reversing some connections. That
combined with wheel spacers at the
front (to reduce understeer, as Geoff
suggested) may be just the ticket. Just a
thought!
As for me, my
car exhibits understeer under acceleration and oversteer under
braking, and I
have to really watch the latter due to my inexperience, so I'll
stick with
the stock setup. Good luck, and please keep the reports coming!
Can't
wait to hear how you do with an electronic boost controller adding another
85
horses... :-)
BTW, if the M3 driver sends you the video and it
comes out well, is there any
chance I could get a copy? I'd love to see
an S3 in action on the track.
Several folks on the list have talked about
compiling tapes of televised races
with S3s, but I don't think any panned
out. :-(
- --
Jim Matthews - Munich, Germany
mailto:jim@the-matthews.com (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://www.the-matthews.com***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://members.stealth-3000gt.st/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R v.1
(1.0 bar @ 64% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Super Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Optima Red Top 830 Battery
Redline synth
fluids (trans= MT-90, xfer & diff= SPH)
Porterfield cryo-treated rotors,
RS4 pads, braided lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 171
mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno
Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:58:55
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rotor Update
>I have first-gen vr-4 calipers. I know the
stock brakes and pads just
>aren't going to cut it when I take it to a
road course, so I planned to
>upgrade to the porterfields. However a
friend of mine with a 2nd gen
>vr-4 told me I should upgrade to the
bigger calipers and discs. How
>much of a difference will it make with
the bigger calipers and rotors,
>or will I be okay with the 1st gen
porterfields? I don't mind
>upgrading the calipers and rotors, but how
much difference am I
>likely to see ?
If you upgrade to the 2nd
gen VR4 calipers and rotors, you will have to buy
a set of 94+ wheels,
because your wheels won't clear the bigger calipers.
You can buy aftermarket
wheels for $800/set, so add that to your price
equation. I'm guessing you
could buy calipers at a junkyard for, say, $150
each, and you can buy
cryogenically treated rotors for $150 each from
Porterfield (-20% for our
discount = $120 each x 4 = $480), so the cost of
the conversion oughta be
$800 + $300 + $480 = $1580 plus pads. You'll need
Porterfield R4 pads on all
four at $120/front and $100 rear (estimates), so
that's $1580 +$220 = $1800.
Rebuild those junkyard calipers before you use
them.
I have a 94 VR4,
and the stock brakes were not sufficient for me. You can
get by, of course,
if you are willing to change pads in the middle of an
event -- say, on
Saturday night or Sunday morning. I got tired of that, so
I went with Brad
Bedell's Big Red conversion. I understand that costs $1500
now for calipers,
pads, and SS lines, and it is worth every penny. But I
also think that the
conversion MIGHT fit under your 1st gen wheels, so you
would not have to
replace the wheels (only Brad can answer that one) or
rotors. That makes the
conversion to Big Reds LESS THAN a conversion to 2nd
gen calipers. (The
Porsche 993 twin turbo caliper is 50% bigger than the
94+ Mitsu calipers, but
it's longer, not thicker, so it might fit).
My recommendation
is:
1. Go try an event or two with your stock system. Install a set of
new
Porterfield R4 pads on the front before you go, and see how you like it.
I
can give you some further advice on brake prep. If you get through
the
track experiences OK, and have no braking problems, then you need to
do
nothing else with your brakes. .Enjoy.
2.If you like open
tracking, but you are dismayed by your brakes'
performance (fading, smoking,
warping rotors, catching on fire, etc), and
you want to do something serious
about it, there is only one solution for
you: Go right to the Big Reds and
94+ rotors. If your wheels won't fit, buy
a set of 94+
wheels.
Rich/old poop 94 Mitsubishi
Big Red calipers, Porterfield
stock rotors, SS lines, Hawk Blue pads, air
ducts, water injection.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 15:04:36
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Road America Report
> The AWS in our cars is same-phase
(rears turn the same direction as the
>fronts), so I understand how your
instructor might have seen the rear
"turn in"
>but don't know why this
would make the rear "loose" or "step out."
Beats me. It just
works.
Wouldn't you
>want the rears to steer OUT to induce
oversteer? If so, and since that's
>desirable in your case, I wonder
if there is a way to REVERSE the behavior of
>the AWS to make it OPPOSITE
phase. I believe it's all hydraulics, so
maybe it's
>as easy as
reversing some connections. That combined with wheel spacers
at
the
>front (to reduce understeer, as Geoff suggested) may be just the
ticket.
Just a
>thought!
That looks like something Roger the
engineering wizard might want to
tackle. Not me!
>
> As for
me, my car exhibits understeer under acceleration and oversteer
under
>braking, and I have to really watch the latter due to my
inexperience, so
I'll
>stick with the stock setup.
That almost
sounds as if you have some positive toe dialed in at the rear,
especially if
it wants to swap ends under hard braking. Check the
alignment, and get rid of
that positive toe in the rear.
Good luck, and please keep the
reports coming! >Can't wait to hear how you
do with an electronic boost
controller adding another
>85 horses...
Me too.
:-)
>
> BTW, if the M3 driver sends you the video and it comes
out well, is there
any
>chance I could get a copy? I'd love to
see an S3 in action on the track.
If I can figure out some way to post
it, I will.
Rich
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:16:28
-0700
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Rotor Update
Hi Walton,
What you really have to decide
is how much money are you willing to spend :).
All good upgrades are going
to be better than stock. Folks say there is a big
difference between
1st & 2nd gen stock brakes, and between 2nd gen stock & Big
Red (and
other) upgraded brakes. For street driving, the stock brakes are
very
good. With upgraded pads and rotors that don't warp, you should be
very happy
on the street with stock calipers. For track however,
upgrades are very
important and unless you have unlimited amounts of money,
you need to prioritize
upgrades.
Hopefully you will get some feedback
from folks with lots more track experience
than I (Christian, Merrit,
Mohler), but this is what I've learned from other
folks and 3 "driving
school" events. The first thing you have to do at the
track is
eliminate brake fade. You can do this simply with racing pads and
your
stock calipers and stock or upgraded rotors. Hawk, KPR, and
Porterfield all
make great racing pads starting at $130 a set. However
for driving school type
events, corner exit speed is more important than
braking power. Of course in
all out racing where you are allowed to
pass in braking zones and corners,
better braking becomes more of a
necessity.
To improve corner exit speed, you need to improve your
grip. Track tires should
be first on the list, second should be
sufficient camber settings, third should
be increasing the front track width,
and fourth should be stiffer springs.
After the top four, wheels, struts,
and strut bar will also help with corner
exit speed. Others will no
doubt prioritize the above a little different than
I.
Track tires will
cost $520+ a set, but you will also need a set of wheels to
mount them
on. Lots of folks are highly recommending the Kumho race tires.
For
wheels, the stock ones are sufficient but heavy and should cost
$400+. For
aftermarket, you need forged racing wheels and those will be
$1000+.
For camber, Merrit is real happy with -3 degrees. If
you want a daily driver,
then you will need to be able to adjust your camber
at the track, so a set of
front camber adjustment plates will be a good
investment. You can have an
alignment shop make "street" and "track"
marks on the adjustment plates, then
you can change the camber at the
track.
To increase the front track width, you will need longer
racing wheel studs and
either wheel spacers OR a two-piece rotor with an
extra thick facing. Mohler
suggests increasing each side by 3/4".
A wider front track is OK for a daily
driver too. Spacers and studs
should be about $100. For two-piece rotors, talk
to Terry Gosse at KVR,
800-636-0854. He can make anything you want for a very
fair
price. Two-piece rotors should be about $700 and are also part of a
brake
upgrades below.
For springs, the Eibach Pro-Kit at $250 is great
and the Ground Control kit with
Eibach springs at $400 is better. There
are also coil-over struts but they get
expensive.
After you have made
modifications to improve your corner exit speed, then you
will want to
upgrade your braking power. To do this, you will need a kit
with
aftermarket calipers and rotors (also caliper brackets, stainless steel
lines,
racing fluid). The best bang for the buck is Brad Bedells
Porsche Big Red
caliper upgrade with one-piece rotors at $1500. Terry
at KVR suggests that the
Porsche 928 caliper would be a better caliper for
our heavy cars than the Big
Red. A kit with 928 calipers and a
two-piece rotor with Porsche 322mm disk
should be about $2100. After
that, kits get very expensive. The 6 piston AP
Racing kit is about $3K
from KVR, Mov'it's terminator kit with 14.9" rotors is
$5K.
So, set
your goals then decide on a budget. Good luck,
Ken
"Walton C.
Gibson" wrote:
>
> On 9 Oct 2000, at 10:53, Ken Middaugh
wrote:
>
> > John Christian wrote:
> > >
>
> > Hi Rich,
> > did turn a little white so I suppose I got them
to 1400 degrees F
> > (stock 1st gen calipers & rotors, no cooling
ducts). They still work
>
> a question for the
brake-knowledgable:
>
> I have first-gen vr-4 calipers. I know the
stock brakes and pads just
> aren't going to cut it when I take it to a
road course, so I planned to
> upgrade to the porterfields. However a
friend of mine with a 2nd gen
> vr-4 told me I should upgrade to the
bigger calipers and discs. How
> much of a difference will it make with
the bigger calipers and rotors,
> or will I be okay with the 1st gen
porterfields? I don't mind
> upgrading the calipers and rotors, but how
much difference am I
> likely to see ?
>
> Walton C.
Gibson
>
kalla@tripoint.org>
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
- --
Could you drive any better if I shoved that cell phone up
your a**?!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:33:53
-0400
From: "Dusan R. Simovic" <
dusanboy@ix.netcom.com>
Subject:
[none]
Hello everyone,
I have yet another question. I was wondering
how possible (how easy) would
it be to replace headlights on '92 base stealth
with those sweet newer,
"non-flip" lights. I hope you know what i am talking
about. Also, if
possible, how expensive would it be?
Thanks a
bunch!
Dusan
'92 base Stealth
K&N FIPK
BOSCH platinum
+4
Advil bottle
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#288
*********************
