team3s           Wednesday, August 30 2000           Volume 01 : Number 250




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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:57:35 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: only getting worse! oil in y-pipe

> As the oil is doing bad in the intake (lowering octane =
> higher danger for  detonation) I highly recommend a small oil catch can
between
> the PCV valve  and the intake trakt. The one from Cusco is the best thing
> one can get but damn expensive (dunno why). I have one from a cart (yes,
> right) and I just try to cut it as it is somewhat large. A transparent one
made
> would be nice to see how much oil is pushed out :) Any pics or sources of
> cheaper catch cans are welcome.


http://www.crosswinds.net/~erikgross/3000GT/PCVCatchCan/PCVCatchCan.html

Here's my home-made catch can.  It cost me about $10 in misc. stuff from
Home Depot and it's clear so you can see any oil that gets in there.

- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (NA, DOHC, 5-speed)          73,000 mi
   Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
   Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
   K&N FIPK, Mobil 1 10W30 w/ OEM oil filter, Skippy PCV CC
'94 Algae Blue "Ain't No 3000" Corolla               69,000mi
- -------------------------------------------------------------


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:16:36 -0500
From: "Vineet Singh (3S)" <stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject: Team3S: Oil in the intake

Running high boost causes even brand new engines to pop their
dipsticks out. Malfunctioning PCV valves can cause some major
headaches, so replace that cheap item (with an OEM one only, the
threads are much cleaner, and won't crack your valvecover as easily).
Some of the people I have seen put a light spring on their dipstick,
that lets any pressure out, but then closes the dipstick again. You
don't want to FORCE your dipstick not to come out (by pinching the
tube, etc). If the pressure isn't released through your dipstick, it
will go for the next weakest link... a seal or gasket somewhere!

After swapping the PCV, put a catch can on your car. Summit sells one
that is semi-transulcent (red), for around 30$. It has a filter on
top, a drain valve on bottom, and the hose somewhere in the middle of
the canister/cylinder. I made my own, using a fuel filter on top, a
clear cleaning solution bottle, that has a "valve" on it, just like
the soap bottles that you use to clean your dishes with (ok, ok, you
are all mostly guys, and no one cleans dishes... but you MUST have
seen one at some time.. *I* remember them :) :)

Factory routes it to the intake for EMISSIONS reasons, there is no
other reason for oil to be in your intake (Roger said it lowers
octane, that is very true). I usually had 1/4-1/2 a cup of oil in my
catch can after 3500 miles or so. My friends new rebuilt engine has a
bit less, maybe a tablespoon.

If our cars were naturally aspirated (ok some are.. duh!), this
problem usually isn't so bad. I can live with oil in my catch can,
since I boost to 15 psi everyday :)

PS: the summit one doesn't route the top part back to your intake (nor
should it). Just plug the nipple in the intake so you don't suck
unfiltered air. I have seen others put LARGE clear fuel filters
inline... and though it should work for a while, I don't think it will
work for very long.

Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM





***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:02:34 -0700
From: "Chris Maxwell" <shmacker@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Getting worried...

After getting some disturbing responses to my post about the oil in the
y-pipe, I'm getting a little edgy.  Here's my problem:

Symptoms: Blitz BOV is spitting oil (not that much, but enough to have the
inside of the "megaphone" part to be coated).  Boost also drops to .4 bar
after 5500rpm (it's fairly sudden, like it goes from .8 to .4 in a matter of
a few hundred revs).  I have GT-PRO 355 turbos so I wouldn't expect this
type of boost behavior.

A few notes.  My engine is a 4-bolt main and it only has 4000 miles on it.
The clutch is an RPS stage 3 that I just put in 1000 miles ago.  I'm using a
Profec A to control boost.  I've gutted the pre-cats, and did the usual
other "In-Out" mods.  I've also gotten rid of the clutch booster and EGR
stuff.  I thought the dipstick was getting dislodged, but I'm almost certain
that the cause of this was that the intercooler pipe is rubbing the top of
the dipstick and pushing it up a little.  There is no signs of oil getting
spat out of the dipstick.  Also, I took off the oil pan to fix a leak and I
noticed that the rear crank seal spring had fallen off and was floating in
the oil pan.  The seal is not leaking oil though so I'm leaving it be for
the moment since I don't want to take that tranny off again if I really
don't have to.  I'm also running Pennzoil 10W-30 oil, non-synthetic.  I was
going to change over to Mobil 1 next time I change the oil.

I did all the work myself and the only hard part of the whole job was
putting the tranny back on.  I have the technique down now so it won't be as
hard anymore.

The last thing I want to hear (but be honest) is that I'm having a
compression problem.  I'd rather push my car off a cliff than replace the
engine a second time in 4 months...  The car is SO fast right now (easily
ditched a new Trans Am while doing some shakedown runs with the profec) so
it bothers me that I'm still having problems with it.

Thanks again,
Chris Maxwell
92 R/T TT


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:51:23 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Oil in the intake

> Some of the people I have seen put a light spring on their
> dipstick, that lets any pressure out, but then closes the
> dipstick again. You don't want to FORCE your dipstick not
> to come out (by pinching the tube, etc). If the pressure
> isn't released through your dipstick, it will go for the
> next weakest link... a seal or gasket somewhere!

The PCV valve should allow plenty of flow to relieve crankcase pressure.  If
you have more pressure than the PCV system can handle, there's a problem
somewhere.  After a while the rubber seal on the dipstick gets hardened and
won't hold snugly in the tube, at which point the dipstick should be
replaced ($6-12 at the Mitsubishi dealer).  That's actually the most common
cause of ejecting dipsticks on turbo cars.

The catch-can idea is good though!  I wouldn't use a filter-style one though
as the filter will limit flow and increase crankcase pressure as the filter
gets dirty (a fuel filter is too fine of a filter for oil).  Anything
particulate in nature should end up in the bottom of the catch can anyway.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:51:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Stephen C. Kempf" <kempfsc@mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Team3S: RE:Tensioner installation errors, etc.

Sorry about the torque error on setting the eccentric rotation of the
tensioner. Ken's right, it should be 7.2 ft-lb. So please take note and
erase the wrong torque (42 ft-lb) that I gave.

As for my car, things seem to be finally coming together and I should have
it back sometime this week. Once I know it's running right I'll give a
brief run-down of the entire story for the list. I suspect others may have
had the same experience, but it's possible that the real problem was never
found (or possibly admitted).

Many thanks for all the comments and suggestions that various list members
have made. They've been a big help in dealing with the dealer.

Steve


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:57:29 GMT
From: "marc augellli" <marcsaugelli@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Warranty, HERE WHAT HAPPEND TO ME!

HERE IS MY WARRANTY STORY,

Last year my dad 94 SL (43,000 miles) had a problem, which was the
crankshaft bolt came loose, because the pin on the crankshaft gear broke. 
The result was the car needed a new harmonic balancer, new power steering
belt, a new a/c belt, power steering belt pulley, 1 cam gear, headlight
assembly and a new plastic cover (the lower one that cover the timing belt).
  Once that bolt came loose the a/c and power steering belt was melting, the
harmonic balancer rolled onto the street, and from the, force web the
headlight assembly.  The car was at my school, which was Macomb, Illinois
Western Illinois University.  My father came up to visit me with my mom (at
the times it was my dad car, now it is mine) when this happened my dad and I
followed the extended warranty company on how to follow make a claim.

After calling the company up, they said that there will be people in the
office on Monday morning and if a covered part was found to be the cause
they would pick up the rent a car (my parents had work on Monday morning)
and the repair bill, by using there visa or MasterCard.  In a 100-mile
radius, there was one repair shop that works on imports and that also was
"ASE Certified".  So, I had it towed, their which was about 1 mile from
where the car broke down (this was Monday morning and called the warranty
company up to tell them where the car is and they told me to call the
dealership, because they only underwrite the warranty).

The repair shop called the claim in and the service manager who name was
“Roy”, said, “let me send an adjuster out to look at the car”.  This was
Monday, Feb 1st when the claim was called in, the adjuster came out that
Friday the 5th and I met him and explain what happened. I showed him the
parts that came off when the bolt came unloose. I told him we pour water on
the a/c and power steering belt because we did not want to watch the car go
up in flames because they were smoking and melted.  Also the glass on the
head light assembly I took the glass off so no one would get cut (there’s
little kids that play where the car was sitting waiting to be towed), I had
the glass in the bag.  He said he seen it happened before.  He took pictures
of my car and the parts.  Then he fax everything in and said it covered by
the warranty.  Well on Tuesday I called the repair shop and ask if the
dealership Libertyville Mitsubishi called to give him the go head and to
start work on the car, and was told “No not yet”.  Therefore, my dad called
up the dealership to see what the hold up was.  My dad was told that he
needed a copy of what the repair bill is going to be.  So the repair shop in
Macomb, Illinois fax the bill again in.

Well another week went by and still nothing.  It has been two weeks that the
car was sitting outside collecting dust, so my dad called up Roy again and
he said, “That the repair shop want 5 hours of labor and Libertyville said
it only takes 4 hours of labor”. It was a different of an hour.  The
dealership charges $75.00 dollars and hour VS the repair shops $35.00 an
hour.  So my dad said “he will pay the extra hour”.  Roy said, “No, have the
car towed to Mitsubishi in Peoria, Illinois”.  So my Dad said “that’s almost
200 miles away, who going to pay for that?”  Roy said, “Well I’ll pay 50.00
dollars and you will have to pay the rest”.  My dad was like “You got to be
joking”, Roy said “I’ll see what I can do and I’ll get back to you
tomorrow”.  Roy then called the repair shop in Macomb and started a fight
over the phone with the repair shop over the extra hour.

Well the next day Roy called my parents house and spoke to my brother, and
said, “You dad is liar, and I’m rejecting the claim”.  So when my dad got
home he called Roy, and Roy said “The repair shop isn’t using Mitsubishi
parts and he is to high and also you remove the ac belt and power steering
belt, and the glass so I’m rejecting the claim.”  My dad said “ The two
belts were melting and they were already off the car, my son and I picked up
the pieces that were on the street and pour water to cool of the two belts.”
  So “Roy said,” Why don’t you shut you Italian mouth” then my dad said
“what did you say, I’ll have your job?”  Roy said,” Go head my last day is
Friday”, then he hang up on my dad.  Therefore, my dad called up my uncle
who owns a car dealership to see if he can help, because he knows some of
the employee.  It did not work, Roy then put down my uncle and hung up on
him, my uncle did find out that Roy last day was that Friday and he was
being let go for his customer service.

So, my dad waited until that Monday and got a hold of the new service manger
to see if he can help, still that did not work because the claim was
rejected.  So then, my dad and I went to Libertyville Mitsubishi and after
telling our story to some of the mangers at the dealership. He was given Mr.
Bob Rohrman personal office phone number.  In addition, the managers did say
that Roy was a jerk and they where happy he was gone.
The lady who answered the phone said, “MR. Rohrman was not here and asked my
dad to leave a message”.  After my dad explain what was the reason of the
call, she then told my dad to call a guy name John Hoffman, he gives the ok
for any warranty work.  So my dad called up about 7 dealership to find John
Hoffman (Mr. Bob Rohrman owns about 25 car dealerships) he told Mr. John
Hoffman the whole story with Roy.  Mr. John Hoffman called up the repair
shop in Macomb to give the ok to start on the car and all my dad had to do
is fax MR. John Hoffman the bills.  This is where our mistake was.  In our
service contract it says and I quote " When a failure occurs from home, you
choose the repair facility.  We monitor and approve the repair and our
MasterCard picks up the tab".  My father and I did not catch that part until
after we fax the bill in, but Mr. John Hoffman did give the ok for the
repairs and we have a letter from the repair shop saying that they were
given the ok to start work on the car.
This was going on for almost 5 weeks now that the car was sitting.  So on
ST. Patrick Day the car was done.  I droved the rent a car from my home to
my school and from school to home which was about 510 miles, I was on spring
break at the time.  My dad fax in the complete bill for the rent a car and
the repair bill the rent a car bill was $1715.47 from Feb 1, 1999 to March
17 1999 and the repair bill was $1737.07.  Later on that night, I was on my
way out when my car did not start.  The car was towed to Libertyville
Mitsubishi and was told that the guy in Macomb did not know what he was
doing and the car needed all the new parts that were replace.  After my dad
heard that, he called the repair shop in Macomb and told him the story.  The
repair shop offered to have the car towed at his expense from Libertyville
to Macomb about 240 miles or to take it to another shop and he would pay for
it.  The repair shop in Macomb paid Libertyville over the phone with a
credit card and to have the car towed to the repair shop that my parents
deal with.  After our guy looked at the car, he said the problem was the
crank senor and the repair shop in Macomb paid the entire bill.

3 weeks later we got a check for only $785.75 dollars and a letter that
said and I quote “ the only reason why were giving you this check of $785.75
dollars is out of good faith”.  Therefore, my dad called Bob Rohrman and
spoke to him and he said “he did not know anything about the problem with my
dad and that he will call him back when he got back from vacation”.  Well
till this date, still Mr. Rohrman never called back and my father has left
at least 25 messages for him.
So then, we filled out the forms from the Attorney General office and got a
letter from MR. Hoffman saying, “that the parts that failed were not cover
buy the warranty”.  We had two different mechanics look at the warranty
contract and they said all the parts are coved by the warranty showed us in
our contact in black and white under the category that the parts that were
replace fell in. The main problem was the crankshaft gear pin broke causing
the harmonic balancer bolt to unscrew, once that bolt came unloose it cause
the belts to burn up and the harmonic balancer shot around the engine
compartment until it came out from under the car into the street.
Therefore, our Attorney called and he got nowhere too.  So are next step is
court.  The funny thing is that the adjuster who came out and took the pics
of the car says, “they don’t have any record of it”, but John Hoffman does
and the funny thing is that when my father came to visit me at school he had
the oil change.  John Hoffman form says that the oil was dirty.  My dad has
the bill to for that oil change.  In addition, we have pic’s of the damage
parts, we save them and they clearly show the parts were damage when the pin
broke and the bolt came loose.  The harmonic balancer had chucks taken out
of it from the impact from the street.  The timing belt did not break, but
from the plastic cover that broke made a half an inch indentation in the
belt.  Also, when we got the better business beau paper work back, Mr. John
Hoffman made a copy of a some other warranty contract to get out of paying
the full amount.  In the contract that came with the car when we purchase it
says, “ If a covered part fails or break, we will pay for full repair for
that part cover and also any parts that were damage from the covered part”. 
Till this day, my father is still out $2666.79.


So the warranty we got is “BULL SH!T” it called the CERTIFIED CAR CARE
(AUTO ADVANGE) and when we talk to the company “CERTIFIED CAR CARE” they
tell us that the parts are covered and then when we ask well why didn’t we
get full reimbursement back they said that they are only the underwriters. 
So, either there is a scam going on or someone is pocking money at the BOB
ROHRMAN AUTO GROUP.  I still have all the parts that were replace, all of
the receipts, a letter from the repair shop in Macomb saying that he was
giving the ok to start work on my car and he had to refax the repair bill 6
times with the confirmation after he fax the bills.  The top of the line
gold plan is what we have for a warranty for my car; it is the best one they
have.  There is no way I would buy a car from Bob Rohrman again, my family
bought 4 cars from them and never had any problems with the new car warranty
and used extend warranty.  Try warranty Gold at
http://www.warrantygold.com/, they have a bumper-to-bumper covers everything
for 700 dollars.

Has anybody ever had a problem with Bob Rohrman?  If anybody would like to
see pic’s of my parts and the paper work I have let me know?  In addition,
if you have any other ways for me to get my father money back email me at
mailto:marcsaugelli@hotmail.com.  I was thinking about putting a web site
together and to get the word out with the experience I had at Bob Rohrman
car dealership. You will think that customer service is important to any
owner who owns a business. Thanks for any help; sorry if this is a long
message I do not want anyone to be swindle from this so called extended
warranty.
Marc Augelli

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:20:00 -0500
From: "Vineet Singh (3S)" <stealthtt@ecanfix.com>
Subject: Team3S: A couple people emailed me about the oil catch cans...

I don't work for summit, the only reason I post this is so people can
go straight to them and order it :)

1.   SUM-G150?  add a
4 for BLACK,
5 for BLUE,
6 for RED
(ie: sum-g1504= black)

- - Summit Breather Tank
Black, 1 qt. breather tank Keep overflow off the track. Our black 1
qt. plastic breather tank is just what you need to keep overflow from
your power steering or dry sump oiling system off the track. It
includes a reusable clamp-on breather, -6 AN inlet fitting, drain
valve, plug, and mounting hardware. Sold individually.
Universal Part
Price: $29.99

Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:55:21 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Getting worried...

> The last thing I want to hear (but be honest) is that
> I'm having a compression problem.  I'd rather push my
> car off a cliff than replace the engine a second time
> in 4 months...  The car is SO fast right now (easily
> ditched a new Trans Am while doing some shakedown
> runs with the profec) so it bothers me that I'm
> still having problems with it.

Do the compression test...  If the readings are within spec, it could be an
intake-side turbo seal failure although it seems like that isn't very
common.  Compression test will at least let you know better where to look
for where the oil is coming from.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:30:57 +0200
From: "Roger Gerl \(RTEC\)" <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Team3S: Strange behaviour (datalog)

Guys, I've seen a lot of strange behaviours but not yet this :

Car is a 93'3000GT (Euro) completely stock. Before installing a BC and other
stuff, we made one/two datalogs and I found a total wavey line of the
injector time. Looking at the air flow it is also a heavy drop visible. No
problem with the O2 readings so fuel isn't the cause for this. Also there is
some knock that is probably caused by low octane fuel the guy always runned.
Interestingly enough the knock is getting lower the higher the rpm gets and
timing is advancing more. It acts just not normal like other cars !

The drop in the power and the wavey behaviour is very noticeable and very
annoying. Of course the log shows very high temp on this day and knock
seemed to become lower with each degree of lower temp that was read at the
MAS. The customer tells me that the behaviour is not always there but mostly
when it is warm (sure !). Also he's hearing a strange sound comming from the
front... like an owl (guess what ?). Well but he hasn't any modification and
even runs under low boost.

The problem is not due to retarded timing caused by the large knock amount.
When driving the car it really feels like knock is hitting the roof or the
clutch is heavily slipping in between. I do have an idea that I will test
first when I get the car next weekend but I wonder what you guys would think
of this.

Please check out the log : http:/www.rtec.ch/cars/yves/yv_1.tlg
Please check out the picture : http:/www.rtec.ch/cars/yves/yv_1.gif

... and let me know what you think.

Thx
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:40:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Hull <mh800597@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Bigger Tires & MPG

What are the advantages and disadvantages of getting 19" or 20" tires.

Also I got a K&N air filter and my gas mileage didn't get better maybe
even worse.  What kind of problem do you think it might be?
 And what kind of MPG are you guys getting with the filter?

- -Matt


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:59:45 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: My '91 Stealth runs great (as long as my foot is on the gas)

If it's a turbo be sure to check the Y pipe and other Intake fittings that are
under pressure.

        Jim Berry
=====================================================


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Fonda, Randy <fonda@data-io.com>

> Hi,
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I was driving down the main drag of town kind of
> showing off a little bit. After having already gone between several lights,
> I pulled up to yet another one, and the engine died. No warning, no prior
> symptoms.
> I borrowed a manual from a friend and quickly started thinking "throttle
> position sensor/idle switch". I adjusted it as outlined in the manual (to no
> avail). It seemed to be working properly, but I'm not sure. There was a
> region where it went into variable resistance between continuity and no
> continuity. I'm still thinking that the idle switch may be bad.
>
> I've searched through the archives and haven't come across a problem that


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:51:38 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Bigger Tires & MPG

> What are the advantages and disadvantages of getting 19" or 20" tires.

Advantages:

Potentially better handling on smooth surfaces.


Disadvantages: 

Tires are more expensive
I haven't seen any 19" or 20" wheels that actually fit
Heavier wheel weight than a smaller wheel
Much easier to bend a wheel, since lower profile tire is required
The "boyz" like to steal them to put on their gold-plated Lexuses
Rougher ride


> Also I got a K&N air filter and my gas mileage didn't
> get better maybe even worse.  What kind of problem do
> you think it might be?

It should get worse.  More airflow requires more fuel.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:56:48 -0400
From: "Roger J. Roskam" <roger.roskam@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: My '91 Stealth runs great (as long as my foot is on the gas)

Trouble stalling at idle speeds?  I will say a big DITTO to checking the
throttle body.  It is very easy to do yourself, and can be cleaned with a
rag and some carburetor cleaning spray.  When at idle, the butterfly in the
throttle body is closed, with only a small gap around the outside of the
valve for air to get in (just enough for idle).  If any gunk builds up in
there, it can cut off the air completely at zero throttle, and consequently
choke the engine into stalling.

Disconnect the Y pipe where it joins the intake (the big end of the Y), look
into the throttle body and you will see the butterfly valve.  Wet your rag
with the carburetor cleaning spray and wipe off the TB and butterfly.  Then,
make sure you secure the Y pipe back on tight, disconnect the battery (long
enough to reset the computer) and fire it up.  Once the computer readjusts,
it should idle just fine.

I have now made this an annual routine, and my engine no longer stalls.

IF this doesn't work, you can have a look at the idle adjust screw that
controls just how much the throttle is open at idle. There is also a
solenoid that kicks the idle speed up higher if the A/C is turned on, again
to prevent stalling with the extra drag the A/C compressor places on the
engine.  The A/C solenoid can also be adjusted.  If these aren't obvious
adjustments, let me know and I can explain in more detail.

Roger Roskam
91 Stealth RT/TT



> My Stealth had the SAME exact problem. Only it occured after i had put a
> new battery in and i had to keep the AC on HIGH in order to keep the car
> running until i had it checked.
> After some computer checks nothing was wrong. The mechanic cracked open
> the throttle body and noticed it was FILTHY, god knows when last checked.
> However he cleaned it out and my car runs GREAT.



***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 08:25:52 +0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Strange behaviour (datalog)

Roger,

Hmm That's a tough one...

First check the timing belt etc.

Maybe it's something wrong with the cam shaft or crank shaft trigger?

Is it possible that the ignition is of sync by 10 degrees or something like
that. That could explain why the cars feels better at a high RPM. For
example: if the real ignition is 0 when it should be 15 at idle then at 4000
RPM the car will have something like 15 degree ignition instead of the
normal 25 (or whatever). 15 Deg at 4000 will feel alot better than 0 at
idle.

I have no idea how to check this but it sure sound like the problems I had
when I forgot to tighten the bolt that holds the crank angle trigger for my
Haltech system...

/Mikael Kenson http://www.3000gt.nu


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 11:50:15 +0300
From: 363 EARS/TANK121 <363EARS.TANK121@psab.af.mil>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Strange behaviour (datalog)

Pretty weird Roger! Back when my car was running 14.9psi with stock (9b)
turbos and fueling on 91 octane my total timing increased steadily from
4200rpm to redline. I bet this is from the boost dropping off with the 9bs.
You shouldn't have that problem with the euro-spec 13G's. Only two thing's I
can think of...

1. Engine is damaged due to the low octane fuel the guy had been running.
Possible ring damage from detonation and oil getting into the combustion
chamber causing early knock.

2. Knock sensor over-torqued causing an excessive knock signal even though
knock's not bad.

As far as the injector on time goes the only thing I can think of is a bad
MAS. Sounds like a long shot though. Hope I helped you get some ideas....

Trevor
96 R/T TT
12.65@107.9
92 GMC Typhoon
13.96@96.4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl (RTEC) [mailto:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 1:31 AM
To: Team3S List (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Strange behaviour (datalog)


Guys, I've seen a lot of strange behaviours but not yet this :

Car is a 93'3000GT (Euro) completely stock. Before installing a BC and other
stuff, we made one/two datalogs and I found a total wavey line of the
injector time. Looking at the air flow it is also a heavy drop visible. No
problem with the O2 readings so fuel isn't the cause for this. Also there is
some knock that is probably caused by low octane fuel the guy always runned.
Interestingly enough the knock is getting lower the higher the rpm gets and
timing is advancing more. It acts just not normal like other cars !

The drop in the power and the wavey behaviour is very noticeable and very
annoying. Of course the log shows very high temp on this day and knock
seemed to become lower with each degree of lower temp that was read at the
MAS. The customer tells me that the behaviour is not always there but mostly
when it is warm (sure !). Also he's hearing a strange sound comming from the
front... like an owl (guess what ?). Well but he hasn't any modification and
even runs under low boost.

The problem is not due to retarded timing caused by the large knock amount.
When driving the car it really feels like knock is hitting the roof or the
clutch is heavily slipping in between. I do have an idea that I will test
first when I get the car next weekend but I wonder what you guys would think
of this.

Please check out the log : http:/www.rtec.ch/cars/yves/yv_1.tlg
Please check out the picture : http:/www.rtec.ch/cars/yves/yv_1.gif

... and let me know what you think.

Thx
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 08:23:14 -0400
From: ukyo@avana.net
Subject: Re: Team3S: Bigger Tires & MPG

Matt,

After I added the K&N on my '97 base coupe I ended up
getting better MPG.  I went from pulling about 330 ~
340 a tank on regular unleaded to getting right at 380
with regular unleaded.  I went from a little over 17
MPG to a little over 19 MPG.  Seeing as my car is an
automatic I find this to be a great improvement.  I
think may car may be due for a tune-up, so I expect to
hit the 20 ~ 21 MPG mark after that.

I don't know if my smaller HP engine coupled with the
SOHC has anything to do with it, but with this kind of
MPG gain it was worth the price. 

I also have not changed my driving habits since I
installed the new filter, so that should not be a
factor.  I've actually pushed the car a little harder. 

- --Travis
'97 3000GT (Base + K&N FIPK / Red)

Quoting Matthew Hull <mh800597@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>:

> What are the advantages and disadvantages of getting
19" or 20" tires.
>
> Also I got a K&N air filter and my gas mileage didn't
get better maybe
> even worse.  What kind of problem do you think it
might be?
>  And what kind of MPG are you guys getting with the
filter?
>
> -Matt




***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 14:10:57 +0200
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S: TMO Data logger error?

Hi,

I have studied the log files from the TMO data logger and there is something
really strange with them.

No way the ignition is 30 degree at itle and up over 45 at full throttle and
over 50 at deceleration. This is the kind of values that the TMO loggs and
they can't be right. Does anyone have a clue about what's wrong with the
log? Is it because the system is designed for the 4cyl DSM cars? Can I
recalculate to get the right value ie divide by 3 or 2...

Please help me with this one... a big 402m race is coming up the 9'th sep
and I really want the car to perform as good as possible that day.

/Mikael Kenson


***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: My '91 Stealth runs great (as long as my foot is on the gas)

This is NOT how our TB works at idle! The plate closes completely at
idle (or should) and air is bypassed around the plate through those 2
slots in front of the plate (bottom side of TB). It is OK to clean
the TB itself with solvent, but the manual recommends to NEVER let
solvent or any cleaning agent enter those 2 bypass passages - seal
them up before cleaning the TB. Those 2 passages lead through the
idle air control motor (IAC), which contains a servo valve that
adjusts the amount of air flowing around the throttle plate at idle.
The IAC motor will also allow air to go around the throttle plate at
off idle if needed. It is the IAC (stepper) motor that raises the
idle when the electric load switch is activated (like when AC or
headlights turn on). It is also the IAC that raises then lowers idle
speed when the engine is cold then warms up. There is an idle speed
adjustment screw on the front of the TB. Proper adjustment requires
that the ECU be told not to try to compensate for the adjustment
while it is being performed (the test mode pin of the diagnostic
connector is grounded as well as the ignition timing adjustment
connector near wiper motor).

I am not denying that cleaning the TB helped your cars, just
clarifying how the TB works at idle.

Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
Stealth 316
  --> http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/
The 3/S Backup CD Homepage
  --> http://www.manualcd.com/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger J. Roskam" <roger.roskam@home.com>
To: "Team3S" <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: My '91 Stealth runs great (as long as my foot is
on the gas)

Trouble stalling at idle speeds?  I will say a big DITTO to checking
the throttle body.  It is very easy to do yourself, and can be
cleaned with a rag and some carburetor cleaning spray.  When at idle,
the butterfly in the throttle body is closed, with only a small gap
around the outside of the valve for air to get in (just enough for
idle).  If any gunk builds up in there, it can cut off the air
completely at zero throttle, and consequently choke the engine into
stalling.

Disconnect the Y pipe where it joins the intake (the big end of the
Y), look into the throttle body and you will see the butterfly valve.
 Wet your rag with the carburetor cleaning spray and wipe off the TB
and butterfly.  Then, make sure you secure the Y pipe back on tight,
disconnect the battery (long enough to reset the computer) and fire
it up.  Once the computer readjusts, it should idle just fine.

I have now made this an annual routine, and my engine no longer
stalls.

IF this doesn't work, you can have a look at the idle adjust screw
that controls just how much the throttle is open at idle. There is
also a solenoid that kicks the idle speed up higher if the A/C is
turned on, again to prevent stalling with the extra drag the A/C
compressor places on the engine.  The A/C solenoid can also be
adjusted.  If these aren't obvious adjustments, let me know and I can
explain in more detail.

Roger Roskam
91 Stealth RT/TT

> My Stealth had the SAME exact problem. Only it occured after i had
put a
> new battery in and i had to keep the AC on HIGH in order to keep
the car
> running until i had it checked.
> After some computer checks nothing was wrong. The mechanic cracked
open
> the throttle body and noticed it was FILTHY, god knows when last
checked.
> However he cleaned it out and my car runs GREAT.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Data logger error?

Mikael,

What you describe below is in fact how a normal log looks for our
cars! At idle expect to see about 28º advance, 32-42º while
accelerating, and 50+º immediately after the throttle plate is
closed. Except for the actual values, this is normal behaviour for
any car. The advance is always increases briefly as the engine
decelerates. Now for the real numbers, none of us think the TMO is
telling us the correct absolute values, but the relative values are
correct and are what we use for tuning. I have posted an example log
( http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-tmo1.htm )and so has Goe
Gonsowski (
http://people.mw.mediaone.net/twinturbo/tmo%20datalogger%20tuning.htm
). When I have connected my timing light to my '92 TT, I get about
10º advance at idle while the TMO is showing about 28º at the same
time. However, when the CAS was adjusted so timing was about 60º
advance the TMO still showed about 30º. Go figure. I do not think we
can just divide by about 3 to get a correct timing value. Knock was a
serious problem with 60º advance but the car did run. The timing
curve was jittery - perhaps Roger's log shows the same thing (I
haven't seen it) - and idle was erratic. The '93 does not have an
external, adjustable CAS so the CAS may not be the problem.

Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
Stealth 316
  --> http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: "Team3S list" <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:10 AM
Subject: Team3S: TMO Data logger error?

Hi,

I have studied the log files from the TMO data logger and there is
something really strange with them.

No way the ignition is 30 degree at itle and up over 45 at full
throttle and over 50 at deceleration. This is the kind of values that
the TMO loggs and they can't be right. Does anyone have a clue about
what's wrong with the log? Is it because the system is designed for
the 4cyl DSM cars? Can I recalculate to get the right value ie divide
by 3 or 2...

Please help me with this one... a big 402m race is coming up the 9'th
sep and I really want the car to perform as good as possible that
day.

/Mikael Kenson


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:49:21 -0400
From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: TMO Data logger error? New subject my timing #'s

Jeff and anyone else out there.  My 91 TT logs only show about a maximum of
27 degrees timing when accelerating with no sign of knock.  I have reset my
ECU thinking maybe the computer was on the low octane map, but I only run
91 - 93 octane.  I am running .95 kg/cm2 boost and have an ATR downpipe and
Borla exhaust.  Anyone have an idea why I am seeing lower numbers than
everyone else?  Is there a difference in the 91's timing maps?  Any ideas
would be helpful.  I will try to post some logs tonight to my site. (at work
right now)

Thanks,

Kevin Schappell
Auto Answers
Free automotive classifieds and more.
http://www.pacarsearch.com
NASCAR Collectables
http://collectat.vstorecar.com
3SI members.... you have to see this page
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
> [mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On Behalf Of Jeff Lucius
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:50 AM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Data logger error?
>
>
> Mikael,
>
> What you describe below is in fact how a normal log looks for our
> cars! At idle expect to see about 28º advance, 32-42º while
> accelerating, and 50+º immediately after the throttle plate is
> closed. Except for the actual values, this is normal behaviour for
> any car. The advance is always increases briefly as the engine
> decelerates. Now for the real numbers, none of us think the TMO is
> telling us the correct absolute values, but the relative values are
> correct and are what we use for tuning. I have posted an example log
> ( http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-tmo1.htm )and so has Goe
> Gonsowski (
> http://people.mw.mediaone.net/twinturbo/tmo%20datalogger%20tuning.htm
> ). When I have connected my timing light to my '92 TT, I get about
> 10º advance at idle while the TMO is showing about 28º at the same
> time. However, when the CAS was adjusted so timing was about 60º
> advance the TMO still showed about 30º. Go figure. I do not think we
> can just divide by about 3 to get a correct timing value. Knock was a
> serious problem with 60º advance but the car did run. The timing
> curve was jittery - perhaps Roger's log shows the same thing (I
> haven't seen it) - and idle was erratic. The '93 does not have an
> external, adjustable CAS so the CAS may not be the problem.
>
> Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
> Stealth 316
>   --> http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mikael Kenson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
> To: "Team3S list" <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:10 AM
> Subject: Team3S: TMO Data logger error?
>
> Hi,
>
> I have studied the log files from the TMO data logger and there is
> something really strange with them.
>
> No way the ignition is 30 degree at itle and up over 45 at full
> throttle and over 50 at deceleration. This is the kind of values that
> the TMO loggs and they can't be right. Does anyone have a clue about
> what's wrong with the log? Is it because the system is designed for
> the 4cyl DSM cars? Can I recalculate to get the right value ie divide
> by 3 or 2...
>
> Please help me with this one... a big 402m race is coming up the 9'th
> sep and I really want the car to perform as good as possible that
> day.
>
> /Mikael Kenson
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> ***  Info:  http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm  ***
>


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End of team3s V1 #250
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