team3s
Wednesday, August 2
2000 Volume 01
: Number
222
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:00:58 -0700
From: "Red Stealth" <
stealth95red@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: FW: Engine Vibration
Hi guys,
I have posted this message last
week but haven't seen any reply so far.
Just wondering if any one have seen
the following message?
Any guidance or direction on where to start would
be very much appreciated.
Thanks.
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Red Stealth [
mailto:stealth95red@yahoo.com]
Sent:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 12:02 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Engine Vibration
Hi stealth/3000gt guru,
I have been having
some problem with my Stealth 95 base and would really
appreciate if any one
could help me out.
Car:
95 Stealth, base model with Automatic
transmission.
77K miles.
Symptom:
Engine/transmission Vibration
at 1000rpm - 1300rpm at stand still (0 mph).
A week ago when I took it out of
the dealer was vibrating at 1100-1500rpm (I
could be
wrong).
Background:
Transmission blown during a normal stop and go
city traffic.
Gear started dropping from 4 to 3 to 2 and finally first gear,
with free rev
(not engaged) in between. At the end, it has to be stop
for a few minutes and
restart the engine in order to move for about
100feet. Managed to performed
this until I reach the dealer which was
about 1/2 a mile away.
I had it replaced with a rebuild transmission at
the dealer but I notice the
abnormal vibration before I even move the car
from the shop.
The power seems to be slightly lag but the car does
run.
The dealer claim that it was my spark plugs or wires.
I then
replaced the rotor&cap, plugs and cables but the vibration was
still
there.
Questions:
1. Could I have screwed up the engine
when I forced the car to move when the
transmission was breaking
down.
2. Could the dealer screw up anything during the replacement
procedure?
3. Could it be the rebuild transmission?
4. At neutral
gear, it there any motion in the transmission?
what part of the transmission
are in touch with the engine flywheel?
5. What could I do?
Any
advise would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks
Henry.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 18:41:52
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
I find it quite amazing that this
keeps resurfacing, and that people refuse
to believe that a harmonic balancer
is important. A harmonic balancer is
absolutely critical to the health
of an engine if it is designed to use one.
Removing it or in this case
replacing it with a simple pulley is almost
guaranteed to cause catosptrophic
failure at some point, kind of like
putting a DSM flywheel on a
VR4.
Talk to anyone who has made a 383 smallblock Chev stroker
engine. Ask what
the two most important parts are after the crank
itself. The answer to
those that know are 1) 400 small block flywheel
and 2) harmonic balancer
from a 400 crank. Those that didn't know
before they tried to run the
engine for any length of time will also be able
to tell you. Because they'd
have laid out cash for them PLUS the cost
of a new engine.
I do not believe the VR4 crank is internally
balanced. If it is then maybe
the pulley approach is okay. The
fact that Mitsubishi designed the engine
with a harmonic balancer should be
evidence enough.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Vineet Singh
> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 5:01 PM
>
To: Team3S
> Cc:
stealth@starnet.net> Subject:
RE:Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
>
>
> This
is a really old "reply" to posts made on the TEAM3S list a couple
> of
months ago. Recently we witnessed an engine utterly fail with
> almost no
explanation. I still think it failed due to the undampened
> underdrive
pulley that was on it, but that's my theory, and to support
> it, I found
this neat article.
>
> The person that wrote this article (don't
know the name) obviously has
> had some direct experience with more than a
few aspects of engine
> building, so I assume he/she knows what they are
talking about. Makes
> sense to me!
>
>
_______________________________________
> The topic is that of aftermarket
crank pulleys. Let me begin by saying
> that we have always called the
pulley on the accessory drive end on
> the Honda [*DSM/3S as well, almost
identical part] cranks Harmonic
> Balancers. People never seemed to
understand what we were talking
> about and so the word "pulley" was
frequently used to avoid confusion.
> If you look carefully at a Honda*
"pulley", you'll find that it's not
> a single piece of metal. Typically,
there's a nodular iron or steel
> hub and another "ring" of iron or steel
surrounding it containing the
> belt grooves. The two parts are joined by
a rubber layer, which is
> highly compressed and sandwiched between
them.
>
> Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over
the years
> have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine
"feel"
> smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and
especially
> in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses,
which are
> very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine
produces a
> shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in
the case of
> the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual
pulses for
> each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a
pulse, it
> causes the internal components to do a rapid
acceleration-deceleration
> event, which includes the crank assembly,
rods/pistons, and more. When
> you consider the mass of all the internal
components and visualize all
> these parts stopping and starting during
their reciprocating and
> rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes"
tend to make it all
> the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can
work for any
> length of time.
>
> The harmonic balancer is
made with the rubber coupling so that, when
> the individual "spikes"
occur, the inner portion may move with the
> crank, but the rubber
connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the
> hub and crank from going
as far or as fast during the spikes or
> pulses. Remember that the outer
part had considerable mass, so it
> tends to want to stay in motion at the
speed that it's traveling and
> that's why it can prevent excessive harsh
motion by the crank and
> other internal parts. To put it simply, the
harmonic balancer is a
> shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents
the individual pulses
> from destroying everything in the
engine.
>
> A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the
Pro Stock
> engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to
weigh
> less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type"
and
> total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic
inch
> range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in
high
> gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that
were
> "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside
from
> cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large
hunks
> were also finding their way into the grandstands and there
were
> numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA
immediately
> mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that
point on.
>
> Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and
function properly, but
> the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple
other companies who were
> tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet
"balancers" immediately
> and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to
race. All of a sudden,
> racers were getting only 10 passes from their
race engines, which had
> previously lasted an entire season. Initially,
most people thought the
> cranks were "bad", or the rod's were not as
strong as they needed to
> be, but after completely destroying engine
after engine, a few
> knowledgeable engine people figured out where the
problem actually was
> coming from and several companies that were capable
of making
> functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over
night.
>
> They are all still in the business to this day and their
units are
> actually much better than the factory units of years before,
as they
> are made from premium materials and optimized for high
rpm
> applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin
to
> wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines. If
the
> balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e.
the
> power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the
pulleys
> that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer,
we
> leave them intact.
>
> This procedure will not lighten
the unbalanced hub substantially, but
> the outer balancer ring will keep
all its mass and function correctly.
> I also need to say that a large
driven mass such as a blower or
> alternator, can have a slight dampening
effect, but to actually work
> properly, the belt connecting the
components to the crank would need
> to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt
tension would be so great that it
> would wear out the number 1 main
bearing as well as the bearings of
> the driven parts in short
order.
>
> It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is",
if you're
> running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass
can also
> increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of
vibration
> will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the
flywheel,it's
> absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass
or the
> harmonic balancer. I realize that there's a lot of hype out
there
> where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize
crank
> pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to
the
> diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in
the
> process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge
on
> your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator,
power
> steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow
the
> speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a
large
> diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be
designed
> to fit "over" the stock balancer.
>
> Perhaps,
someone will begin to make some good quality "functional"
> balancers some
day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully,
> as some good
looks and minimal power gains can be off-set by a ruined
> engine. I'm
sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm
> saying here and
to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do
> not manufacture
hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas
> and none of what
I've said is the least bit politically motivated.
>
> And yes, any
engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin a
> crank driven oil
pump, crank, rods, piston tolerances, crank bearings,
> and a whole lot
more.
> ________________________________________
> Whew! that was
long, but I think he has some points!
>
> Vineet Singh
>
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
>
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
>
http://manualcd.dsm.org -
DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
>
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:58:47
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Even if the crank is
balanced to exact specifications. I mean no +/-, EXACT
SPECS.
Then a harmonic dampener is generally needed regardless if I
understand the
previous post. Not only does it dampen vibration from it
spinning, but
more in the form of where it is connected to the timing belt.
The rubber acts
as a small cushion.
We have a towing business on the beach here, and I
liken it a little to
that.
There are two ways to tow a car on the
beach.
You can use a rope or a chain basically... We use rope because
they are
safer (1" - 1.5" diameter)
Regardless, imagin being towed by
something using a chain. Everytime there
is a speed mismatch, you will
feel an abrupt jerk - this is the same as what
happens thousands of times per
minute in an engine. - The pistons spin the
crank and each time a cylinder is
fired, it creates the acceleration for
just a second. This twists the
crank, and with a pulley (not harmonically
balanced) it creates that jerking
on the timing belt and other engine parts.
Now, tow that same car using a
rope. Rope is made to give a little.
Instead of an abrupt jerk, you get
a smooth transition from stop to full
acceleration. Same theoyr applies
to a harmonically damped pulley. the
give of the rubber saves the
engien because each time a cylinder fires, it
smooths out the
transition...
- - Now I may be totally off base here, but that is the way
I understand
this...
- -Cody
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Barry E. King
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:42 PM
To:
Team3S
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For
Engine
I find it quite amazing that this keeps resurfacing, and that
people refuse
to believe that a harmonic balancer is important. A
harmonic balancer is
absolutely critical to the health of an engine if it is
designed to use one.
Removing it or in this case replacing it with a simple
pulley is almost
guaranteed to cause catosptrophic failure at some point,
kind of like
putting a DSM flywheel on a VR4.
Talk to anyone who has
made a 383 smallblock Chev stroker engine. Ask what
the two most
important parts are after the crank itself. The answer to
those that
know are 1) 400 small block flywheel and 2) harmonic balancer
from a 400
crank. Those that didn't know before they tried to run the
engine for
any length of time will also be able to tell you. Because they'd
have
laid out cash for them PLUS the cost of a new engine.
I do not believe
the VR4 crank is internally balanced. If it is then maybe
the pulley
approach is okay. The fact that Mitsubishi designed the engine
with a
harmonic balancer should be evidence enough.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Vineet Singh
> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 5:01 PM
>
To: Team3S
> Cc:
stealth@starnet.net> Subject:
RE:Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
>
>
> This
is a really old "reply" to posts made on the TEAM3S list a couple
> of
months ago. Recently we witnessed an engine utterly fail with
> almost no
explanation. I still think it failed due to the undampened
> underdrive
pulley that was on it, but that's my theory, and to support
> it, I found
this neat article.
>
> The person that wrote this article (don't
know the name) obviously has
> had some direct experience with more than a
few aspects of engine
> building, so I assume he/she knows what they are
talking about. Makes
> sense to me!
>
>
_______________________________________
> The topic is that of aftermarket
crank pulleys. Let me begin by saying
> that we have always called the
pulley on the accessory drive end on
> the Honda [*DSM/3S as well, almost
identical part] cranks Harmonic
> Balancers. People never seemed to
understand what we were talking
> about and so the word "pulley" was
frequently used to avoid confusion.
> If you look carefully at a Honda*
"pulley", you'll find that it's not
> a single piece of metal. Typically,
there's a nodular iron or steel
> hub and another "ring" of iron or steel
surrounding it containing the
> belt grooves. The two parts are joined by
a rubber layer, which is
> highly compressed and sandwiched between
them.
>
> Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over
the years
> have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine
"feel"
> smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and
especially
> in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses,
which are
> very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine
produces a
> shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in
the case of
> the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual
pulses for
> each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a
pulse, it
> causes the internal components to do a rapid
acceleration-deceleration
> event, which includes the crank assembly,
rods/pistons, and more. When
> you consider the mass of all the internal
components and visualize all
> these parts stopping and starting during
their reciprocating and
> rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes"
tend to make it all
> the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can
work for any
> length of time.
>
> The harmonic balancer is
made with the rubber coupling so that, when
> the individual "spikes"
occur, the inner portion may move with the
> crank, but the rubber
connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the
> hub and crank from going
as far or as fast during the spikes or
> pulses. Remember that the outer
part had considerable mass, so it
> tends to want to stay in motion at the
speed that it's traveling and
> that's why it can prevent excessive harsh
motion by the crank and
> other internal parts. To put it simply, the
harmonic balancer is a
> shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents
the individual pulses
> from destroying everything in the
engine.
>
> A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the
Pro Stock
> engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to
weigh
> less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type"
and
> total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic
inch
> range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in
high
> gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that
were
> "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside
from
> cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large
hunks
> were also finding their way into the grandstands and there
were
> numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA
immediately
> mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that
point on.
>
> Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and
function properly, but
> the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple
other companies who were
> tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet
"balancers" immediately
> and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to
race. All of a sudden,
> racers were getting only 10 passes from their
race engines, which had
> previously lasted an entire season. Initially,
most people thought the
> cranks were "bad", or the rod's were not as
strong as they needed to
> be, but after completely destroying engine
after engine, a few
> knowledgeable engine people figured out where the
problem actually was
> coming from and several companies that were capable
of making
> functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over
night.
>
> They are all still in the business to this day and their
units are
> actually much better than the factory units of years before,
as they
> are made from premium materials and optimized for high
rpm
> applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin
to
> wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines. If
the
> balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e.
the
> power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the
pulleys
> that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer,
we
> leave them intact.
>
> This procedure will not lighten
the unbalanced hub substantially, but
> the outer balancer ring will keep
all its mass and function correctly.
> I also need to say that a large
driven mass such as a blower or
> alternator, can have a slight dampening
effect, but to actually work
> properly, the belt connecting the
components to the crank would need
> to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt
tension would be so great that it
> would wear out the number 1 main
bearing as well as the bearings of
> the driven parts in short
order.
>
> It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is",
if you're
> running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass
can also
> increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of
vibration
> will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the
flywheel,it's
> absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass
or the
> harmonic balancer. I realize that there's a lot of hype out
there
> where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize
crank
> pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to
the
> diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in
the
> process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge
on
> your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator,
power
> steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow
the
> speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a
large
> diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be
designed
> to fit "over" the stock balancer.
>
> Perhaps,
someone will begin to make some good quality "functional"
> balancers some
day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully,
> as some good
looks and minimal power gains can be off-set by a ruined
> engine. I'm
sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm
> saying here and
to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do
> not manufacture
hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas
> and none of what
I've said is the least bit politically motivated.
>
> And yes, any
engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin a
> crank driven oil
pump, crank, rods, piston tolerances, crank bearings,
> and a whole lot
more.
> ________________________________________
> Whew! that was
long, but I think he has some points!
>
> Vineet Singh
>
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
>
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
>
http://manualcd.dsm.org -
DSM & 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
>
>
>
> ***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 19:41:01
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
There exist internally balanced
cranks which eliminate the need for external
balancers/dampeners or
whatever. The VR4 crank does not to my knowledge
fall into that
category. Some engines are designed to run somewhat out
of
balance. Take a serious look at various engine designs over the
years
(especially smaller engines found in motorcyles) and there are
numerous
examples of each.
The stresses you are referring to are
relatively minor and are easily
overcome by the small amount of flex in the
belt and the fact that teeth
generally will get ripped off the timing belt
before a forge steel crank
breaks, assuming the force was there to do it in
the first place. This
stress is essential non-existant at steady state
or when already under load,
which is pretty much any time the engine is
running, even at idle.
A harmonic balancer or dampener is not meant to
adjust for reactive
differences between different components that happen to
be hanging off the
crank, like camshafts, power steering pumps or any other
accessory. You
should be able to convince yourself of this by the
existence of solid gear
drives for camshafts, oil and water pumps and the
like which typially do not
contain any type of cushioning mechanism. It
may make the engine seem
smoother under certain situations (like initial
startup and extremely quick
acceleration changes) to have a "cush drive"
(basically what you are
referring to), but doesn't address the real issue
that harmonic balancing
does, which occurs regardless of whether or not
anything is hanging off the
crank besides connecting rods. In other
words, that portion of the
discussion is completely irrelevant to the
function of a harmonic dampener.
The reality is that there is no such
thing as a perfectly balanced crank or
even a way of measuring since even
measuring techniques have a margin of
error. Even if we COULD perfectly
balance the crank, the practicality of
doing so would likely be cost
prohibitive. The best we can do (and it is
fortunately more than
adequate) is balance it within a certain degree of
error over a certain
operational range. The physics involved are somewhat
complex but at
certain RPMs the various forces induced on the roational
assembly from parts
of the crank changing direction at different time become
attenuated
(amplified). This can take an otherwise well balanced crank and
induce
harmonics which can ultimately cause serious mechanical damage. This
is
the problem that a harmonic dampener or balancer addresses.
An improperly
balanced rotating assembly (flywheel, crank, rods, pistons,
main pulley if it
exists) WILL eventually cause serious damage. There is
no
maybe.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of cody
> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 6:59 PM
> To: Barry
E. King
> Cc: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is
Bad For Engine
>
>
> Even if the crank is balanced to exact
specifications. I mean no
> +/-, EXACT
> SPECS. Then a
harmonic dampener is generally needed regardless if I
> understand the
previous post. Not only does it dampen vibration from it
> spinning,
but more in the form of where it is connected to the
> timing
belt.
> The rubber acts as a small
cushion.
<snipped>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:15:31
EDT
From:
XCricKX@aol.comSubject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
i just got my pulleys
like 2-3weeks ago and i feel some power now...so far it
works
great.
ben
91 es
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:44:32
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Even if the crank is
balanced to exact specifications. I mean no +/-, EXACT
SPECS.
Then a harmonic dampener is generally needed regardless if I
understand the
previous post. Not only does it dampen vibration from it
spinning, but
more in the form of where it is connected to the timing belt.
The rubber acts
as a small cushion.
- ---
Correct, the Toyota 7M motors develop a
nasty (from a motors point of view
although hardly felt) 400hz vibration that
has strong and weak points depending
on RPM, and this is death for #1 main
bearings..and can also cause woodruff key
issues.
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:45:26
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
There exist
internally balanced cranks which eliminate the need for
external
balancers/dampeners or whatever. The VR4 crank does not to my
knowledge
fall into that category. Some engines are designed to run
somewhat out of
balance. Take a serious look at various engine designs
over the years
(especially smaller engines found in motorcyles) and there are
numerous
examples of each.
- ---
Balancing a motor only deals with
the motion of rotating and opposing forces of
MASS. Has nothing to do
with dampening.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 22:39:45
-0500
From: xwing <
xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Re:best clutch for high HP!!
I have the RPS 2900 lb pressure plate, with
the 6 puck sprung hub with
3 carbon and 3 ceramic discs. Works great,
takes all the power, can slip
and it will grab, cheap
relative to the
$2000 Mueller or OS Giken twin discs; and Mueller told
me if theirs needed
rebuild, the discs are $350 EACH so a rebuild would
be MINIMUM $700 for parts
alone. Why would they lie to me?
They said it would last long time
though.
Jack T.
Dean Knoepfle wrote:
> What is the exact
name of the clutch that Jack T. is now
> using? Is it the best clutch for
our cars, how much more
> clutch pressure is there, how much does it cost,
and where
> is the best place to purchase it from?
> have you
sucessfully tried to do a
> hard launch feathering the clutch at high RPM
without
> burning the shit of it.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:53:55
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Harmonic dampening has everything
to do with managing harmonics which may
exist in the operational range of a
rotating assembly, which was the thrust
of the message.
Seems like
there is confusion between momentary "dampening" and a harmonic
balancer
which is also sometimes called a harmonic dampener. The point is
in the
original message, and stands.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Mohler, Jeff [
mailto:jeff.mohler@netapp.com]
>
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:45 PM
> To: 'Barry E. King'; cody
>
Cc: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For
Engine
>
>
> There exist internally balanced cranks which
eliminate the need
> for external
> balancers/dampeners or
whatever. The VR4 crank does not to my knowledge
> fall into that
category. Some engines are designed to run somewhat out of
>
balance. Take a serious look at various engine designs over the
years
> (especially smaller engines found in motorcyles) and there are
numerous
> examples of each.
> ---
>
> Balancing a motor
only deals with the motion of rotating and
> opposing forces of
>
MASS. Has nothing to do with dampening.
>
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:53:15
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Of course it
"works"..but its slowly destroying your main bearings.
No offense, but
its just like the import world to belive this crap...the
domestic world that
we all enjoy beating on so much understands this..and you
dont find
non-dampened pulleys at Jegs..or any other hard-core race shop.
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
XCricKX@aol.com [
mailto:XCricKX@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday,
August 01, 2000 8:16 PM
To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
i just got my
pulleys like 2-3weeks ago and i feel some power now...so far it
works
great.
ben
91 es
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 20:54:55
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Correct..we both
fully agree *heh*
- -----Original Message-----
From: Barry E. King [
mailto:beking@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday,
August 01, 2000 8:54 PM
To: Mohler, Jeff; cody
Cc: Team3S
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Harmonic dampening
has everything to do with managing harmonics which may
exist in the
operational range of a rotating assembly, which was the thrust
of the
message.
Seems like there is confusion between momentary "dampening" and
a harmonic
balancer which is also sometimes called a harmonic dampener.
The point is
in the original message, and
stands.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Mohler, Jeff [
mailto:jeff.mohler@netapp.com]
>
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:45 PM
> To: 'Barry E. King'; cody
>
Cc: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For
Engine
>
>
> There exist internally balanced cranks which
eliminate the need
> for external
> balancers/dampeners or
whatever. The VR4 crank does not to my knowledge
> fall into that
category. Some engines are designed to run somewhat out of
>
balance. Take a serious look at various engine designs over the
years
> (especially smaller engines found in motorcyles) and there are
numerous
> examples of each.
> ---
>
> Balancing a motor
only deals with the motion of rotating and
> opposing forces of
>
MASS. Has nothing to do with dampening.
>
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 00:02:40
-0400
From: "Michael Booker" <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Any Help?? - Engine won't run ...
TMO's site
www.tmo.com has some good info and a how-to for
checking,
removing, ordering, and replacing the capacitors for the DSM
ECU. The same
techniques can be applied to our ECU. I think the
capacitors are the same or
similar, so this should be a way to fix a unit
that is heading south.
Matt
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 00:05:10
-0400
From: "Michael Booker" <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
MAS and FIPK cleaning
Is there a way to clean the MAS sensor safely? I
have a 93', and the engine
bay seems to suck up loads of
sand.
Matt
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:06:42
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: MAS and FIPK cleaning
If its working..it doesnt need
cleaned.
Thats what the filter's for.
Honest..dont muck with the
AFM.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Booker [
mailto:mrbook@gate.net]
Sent: Tuesday,
August 01, 2000 9:05 PM
To: Barry E. King; Team3S
Subject: Re: Team3S: MAS
and FIPK cleaning
Is there a way to clean the MAS sensor safely? I
have a 93', and the engine
bay seems to suck up loads of
sand.
Matt
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 00:19:03
-0400
From: "Michael Booker" <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
And, remember everybody! Buschur
makes dampeners with underdrive! Last I
checked, he was working on the belts
(this was a long while ago) but shoudl
have them done. Better to have
dampening AND underdrive!
Plus, like Dr. Jack pointed out, all (I believe)
11.99 sec. and faster cars
have to have an SFI approved dampener. The
unorthodox pulley isn't approved,
and could get you
disqualified.
Mat
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 07:59:53
+0100
From: George Shaw <
george.shaw@btinternet.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Gearing for Speed correction
Hi
What gears are available
for a 3000GT Tx2 to change the speedo reading if I
fit different diameter
tyres/rims. At what point % wise should I change the
gear? This is for road
use.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 06:19:11
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Gearing for Speed correction
- ----- Original Message ----- From:
"George Shaw"
<
george.shaw@btinternet.com>
>
What gears are available for a 3000GT Tx2 to change the speedo reading
if
I
> fit different diameter tyres/rims. At what point % wise should
I
change the
> gear? This is for road use.
When upgrading to
a larger wheel, a tire with a proportionally smaller
sidewall profile is
chosen, which keeps the overall diameter the same.
This is called
"Plus-Sizing" and you can read all about it on the Tire
Rack website, among
others...
www.tirerack.com
.
AFAIK, there is no way to change the speedo gearing, shy of installing
a
new unit from another car. Academic, and unnecessary if you
"Plus-Size"
properly... Changing the overall size of the wheel/tire
combo would
change the handling dynamic of the car completely, and is
not
recommended. Even with a "same size" switch, you should have
your
alignment checked as part of the
process.
Best,
Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:57:17
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
Barry
said:
> An improperly balanced rotating assembly (flywheel,
>
crank, rods, pistons, main pulley if it exists)
> WILL eventually cause
serious damage. There is
> no maybe.
Even if you had a
perfectly balanced rotating assembly, you would still need
a harmonic
balancer. A more appropriate name for it is harmonic dampener as
it is
there only* to counteract the harmonic forces in the crankshaft that
are
caused by the pistons firing. A better balance of the
rotating
assembly will help preserve the crank bearings by reducing
misbalance
vibration but will do nothing to counteract the twisting forces in
the
crank, which when they get severe enough cause lots of vibration
and
stresses against the bearings.
Maybe "need" is too harsh a word,
"desire" is probably better. I would
desire a harmonic balancer in
order to preserve the crank bearings and other
engine components rather than
get 15 HP from a non-dampened underdrive
pulley. I'll get my 15 HP
elsewhere as I don't have the skills required to
rebuild my motor.
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:12:50
-0700
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Gearing for Speed correction
> What gears are available
for a 3000GT Tx2 to change the speedo reading if I
> fit different
diameter tyres/rims. At what point % wise should I change the
> gear? This
is for road use.
As far as I know, there are only two gears available --
27 teeth and 28 teeth.
I think some of the early 1st gen cars had the 27
tooth gear and experienced
speedometer readings that were a little too
fast. There is a TSB to correct the
speedo by replacing with the 28
tooth gear.
If you wanted to go to a smaller diameter tire, you
would probably want a 29 or
30 tooth gear if they are available. You
probably won't be able to go to a
larger diameter tire because of lack of
clearance to the front strut lower
spring perch.
Let us know if you
find out anything...
- --
Forget world peace -- visualize using your turn
signal!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 08:23:09
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
While it looks like there's no
disagreement, and everything here has been
said before in one way or another,
do understand that engine designs exist
that DO NOT require harmonic
balancers to operate safely (without
self-destruction), and would be less
effective with them. This may be part
of the reason why some people
still seem to cling to the mistaken notion
that the VR4 doesn't need
one.
The harmonics inherent in the rotating assembly are a problem when
the
forces they introduce exceed the ability of the components to resist
those
forces, or when those forces rob too much power (a less likely scenario
as
at this point the engine probably isn't going to run very
well).
Very light-weight rotating assemblies as found in some high-end
racing
engines forgo the harmonic balancer (which sacrifices power for the
sake of
stability) and they run just fine. Certain crank geometries are
less prone
to harmonic balance issues. Unfortunately many of these
design are
absolutely impractical for a road-going consumer vehicle and are
rarely if
ever found on the street. The other factor is that these
engines are
typically purpose-built and operate within fairly narrow RPM
ranges and
therefore spend very little time in the ranges where harmonic
balance is an
issue for the specific engine.
That being said, I
suppose it is possible that the 6G would not require a
harmonic balancer IFF
the range of operation was determined where these
harmonics occur, AND the
engine was only ever operated in those ranges. In
any case this
eliminates street driven cars.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Jannusch, Matt
> Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 7:57
AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad
For Engine
>
>
> Barry said:
>
> > An
improperly balanced rotating assembly (flywheel,
> > crank, rods,
pistons, main pulley if it exists)
> > WILL eventually cause serious
damage. There is
> > no maybe.
>
> Even if you had a
perfectly balanced rotating assembly, you would
> still need
> a
harmonic balancer. A more appropriate name for it is harmonic
>
dampener as
> it is there only* to counteract the harmonic forces in the
crankshaft that
> are caused by the pistons firing. A
better balance of the rotating
> assembly will help preserve the crank
bearings by reducing misbalance
> vibration but will do nothing to
counteract the twisting forces in the
> crank, which when they get severe
enough cause lots of vibration and
> stresses against the
bearings.
>
> Maybe "need" is too harsh a word, "desire" is probably
better. I would
> desire a harmonic balancer in order to preserve
the crank
> bearings and other
> engine components rather than get
15 HP from a non-dampened underdrive
> pulley. I'll get my 15 HP
elsewhere as I don't have the skills
> required to
> rebuild my
motor.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#222
*********************