team3s
Monday, July 31
2000
Volume 01 : Number
220
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:56:09 -0700
From: "Bbizo" <
bbizo@telisphere.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
> Funny how on paper that comes
out...
>
> In my RWD car, I was able to deliver 38 more FtLbs of
torque, and 11 more
Hp.
>
> >From a 33lb shaft to a 12lb
shaft.
>
> Whats it say on paper about that?
>
> It
makes..a difference.
>
My paper says that a heavy, out of balance drive
shaft will use 11hp easy.
But a heavy balanced drive shaft won't use any more
power than a light
balanced drive shaft (except on acceleration), unless you
are in an
alternate universe where the laws of nature are somehow more
favorable to a
light driveshaft.
Bob Bissonette
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:54:09
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
Yes, were talkng
acceleration..which is what and where it all matters at.
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Bbizo [
mailto:bbizo@telisphere.com]
Sent:
Sunday, July 30, 2000 10:56 PM
To:
team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
> Funny how on paper
that comes out...
>
> In my RWD car, I was able to deliver 38 more
FtLbs of torque, and 11 more
Hp.
>
> >From a 33lb shaft to a
12lb shaft.
>
> Whats it say on paper about that?
>
> It
makes..a difference.
>
My paper says that a heavy, out of balance drive
shaft will use 11hp easy.
But a heavy balanced drive shaft won't use any more
power than a light
balanced drive shaft (except on acceleration), unless you
are in an
alternate universe where the laws of nature are somehow more
favorable to a
light driveshaft.
Bob Bissonette
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 23:16:28
-0700
From: "Bbizo" <
bbizo@telisphere.com>
Subject: Fw:
Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
> Yes, were talkng
acceleration..which is what and where it all matters at.
I'll make one
more reasoned argument and then I give. Your statement that
you got more
torque at your rear wheels was a steady state condition. In
other words, your
car was being tested at given RPMs and throttle settings.
At least those
transitions were slow relatiave to race conditions. It is
highly unlikely
that the dyno could test for the difference in acceleration
of the drive
shaft. That being the case, the torque increase you saw was not
the result of
reduced moment of inertia of the drive shaft (only shows up in
acceleration)
but some other reduction in power loss. That would most likely
be reduced
loss from reduced vibration. The acceleration component of this
was the
subject of my original post. The acceleration of the drive shaft is
an
infitesmal portion of the acceleration of the vehicle, too small to
measure.
I believe you had a reduction in loss with the lighter shaft. I'm
just saying
that it wasn't a result of the weight itself, more likely
something
else.
Bob Bissonette
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 23:20:33
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Fw: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
Ive gained over 40Hp, and
60Lbs of torque in dropping about 70lbs of
driveline mass so far.
That
math, on a dyno, tells me something.
I just cant belive my car was
somehow in one piece at 186,000 miles if I
had that much power being lost to
imbalance.
PS: Dont think im just tryin to call you wrong..im not.
Just that I cant
belive that 100yrs of conventional wisdom on lightweight
uses for
racing..is suddenly wrong.
-
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Speedtoys.com/net/org Email/WWW account at: |
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preferred name and |
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|
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boot).
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- -------------------------------------------------------------
On
Sun, 30 Jul 2000, Bbizo wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, were
talkng acceleration..which is what and where it all matters at.
>
>
I'll make one more reasoned argument and then I give. Your statement
that
> you got more torque at your rear wheels was a steady state
condition. In
> other words, your car was being tested at given RPMs and
throttle settings.
> At least those transitions were slow relatiave to
race conditions. It is
> highly unlikely that the dyno could test for the
difference in acceleration
> of the drive shaft. That being the case, the
torque increase you saw was not
> the result of reduced moment of inertia
of the drive shaft (only shows up in
> acceleration) but some other
reduction in power loss. That would most likely
> be reduced loss from
reduced vibration. The acceleration component of this
> was the subject of
my original post. The acceleration of the drive shaft is
> an infitesmal
portion of the acceleration of the vehicle, too small to
> measure. I
believe you had a reduction in loss with the lighter shaft. I'm
> just
saying that it wasn't a result of the weight itself, more likely
>
something else.
>
> Bob Bissonette
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:51:53
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE: Fw:
Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
I believe that where the math is
wrong is in it's application here.
One person is talking about
accelerating a simple cylindrical piece of metal
in comparison to the entire
almost 4000 lb weight of a car.
What almost everyone else is talking
about is the actual acceleration of the
engine under load, not compared to
anything.
Dynos don't lie, and our driveshafts are balanced pretty well
from the
factory - they have to be, else we wouldn;t have smooth riding
cars.
Regardless, you can;t compare the mass of a driveshaft as in comparison
to
the car. If anything, measure the acceleration of only the
drivetrain
components. You will find the driveshaft maes up a lot
larger percentage.
Think about it. On a dyno, we don't measure the
acceleration of the car, we
measure the acceleration of some heavy ass drums
spinning under the wheels.
The only thing that matters when determining HP
and torque in this
siituation is engien power potential, and the restrictions
between the
engine and the contact patch of the tires.
Another way to
think about it... Put your stock VR-4 on a huge diet. Make
it
weigh 1800 Lbs (man, wouldn;t that be badass), it's engine still has th
same
power output, but it will accelerate ALOT faster... And if I
remember,
all we are talking about is engine power output...
Sorry to
go on, but one more thing... To the person who did the
calculation - I
don;t have time to do it else, I would, but if someone could
get weights for
all gearing and driveshafts, then we can make some real
calculations as to
how much added power we can get to the rear wheels by
adding a lighter
driveshaft, keeping the front stuff factory...
Remember, this only has to do
with the drivetrain, not the car, nor any part
of the drivetrain that is
standard front/rear such as wheels and tires,
unless differetn wheels/tires
are used...
- -Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Geoff Mohler
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 1:21 AM
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Fw: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
Ive gained over 40Hp, and
60Lbs of torque in dropping about 70lbs of
driveline mass so far.
That
math, on a dyno, tells me something.
I just cant belive my car was
somehow in one piece at 186,000 miles if I
had that much power being lost to
imbalance.
PS: Dont think im just tryin to call you wrong..im not.
Just that I cant
belive that 100yrs of conventional wisdom on lightweight
uses for
racing..is suddenly wrong.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
| Get your FREE
Speedtoys.com/net/org Email/WWW account at: |
|
accounts@speedtoys.com. Include
preferred name and |
| password (hey..its free, no
fancy CGI passwd thingie here
|
|
plus a 40Mb quota to
boot).
|
- -------------------------------------------------------------
On
Sun, 30 Jul 2000, Bbizo wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, were talkng
acceleration..which is what and where it all matters
at.
>
> I'll
make one more reasoned argument and then I give. Your statement that
> you
got more torque at your rear wheels was a steady state condition. In
>
other words, your car was being tested at given RPMs and
throttle
settings.
> At least those transitions were slow relatiave to
race conditions. It is
> highly unlikely that the dyno could test for the
difference in
acceleration
> of the drive shaft. That being the case,
the torque increase you saw was
not
> the result of reduced moment of
inertia of the drive shaft (only shows up
in
> acceleration) but some
other reduction in power loss. That would most
likely
> be reduced loss
from reduced vibration. The acceleration component of this
> was the
subject of my original post. The acceleration of the drive shaft
is
>
an infitesmal portion of the acceleration of the vehicle, too small to
>
measure. I believe you had a reduction in loss with the lighter shaft.
I'm
> just saying that it wasn't a result of the weight itself, more
likely
> something else.
>
> Bob
Bissonette
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:20:39
+0200
From: "Roger Gerl (RTEC)" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo pressure only under load...
> The ECU really doesn't
know whether the engine is under load or not, it
> simply stops firing
injectors when the engine is over a certain RPM (rev
> limit). The engine
will go over, the injectors will stop injecting, the
> engine will slow
slightly, a couple injectors will fire (pushing the
engine
> back over
the limit), and the cycle continues - very quickly. The bottom
> line is,
while the injectors may fire a couple times, it will skip many
> shots
waiting for the engine to slow.
I could't follow exactly what Bob meant
but the injectors are not
individually actuated. The rev limiter has nothing
to do with the injectors
and when we say firing, we really mean the spark.
The injectors cannot
"fire" anything. The injectors are shut off when
fuel-cut is initiated.
Unlike other cars we do not have a shut off vlave and
this is why the ECU
simply switches the injectors and ignition off (and all
who had this
experience no the danger of the tooths !). The rev limtier works
only for
the ignition. Also, it is impossible that the injectors will be
opened
several times during a cycle. There is just no time for that ! This is
why
we have the IDC where we exactly know how long an injector is open at
a
specific rpm/load level.
Back to the turbo stuff. It is fully
correct that the engine only produces
power when it can work against mass.
Just think of that : you lift your arms
without a weight on them. How much
power does this take ? Not a lot, right.
Now lift 20 lbs and you need more
force to lift them, so your muscles will
produce more power. The trick-word
is mass and how fast and how far it is
moved and the formula is =
kg*(m^2/s^3).
Measuring power is not easy and a correct dyno does the
following : You
start at 1500rpm and floor it. The dyno simulates a mass with
a large
e-motor at the drums that produces resistance to the tires. Now the
"mass"
will be increased until the rpm cannot rise anymore. This is then the
peak
hp at this rpm. Just think of driving up the hill, floored the throttle
and
the car cannot go faster. Now the dyno regulates the "mass" that much
that
the rpm are still able to rise and the the small offset can be
compensated.
The result is a very good quality power curve over the powerband
where the
engine is always under full load. You see that this cannot be
compared with
a simple 5 second pull on "normal" estimating dynos.
By
the way, the engine never gets under full load until in 3rd gear and
looses
some load at higher rpm on the road.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:00:47
-0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Hull <
mh800597@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Interior Fabric
Does anyone know where I can get some of the
Stealth's interior fabric?
Mine is just a dark gray thick/hard nylon.
Any information would help, I am
trying to make a two seater
stealth.
- -Matt
Stealth R/T TT
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:16:34
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Need help!
Hi Dan,
Unless you have a good Samaritan 3S
owner nearby (have you told us
whereabouts you live?) you will have to 1)
live with the car, 2) hand
it over to a (hopefully) experienced mechanic plus
some cash, or 3)
bite the bullet and start getting mechanically inclined and
save a
bundle of money and gain some personal satisfaction in being able
to
tame the beast. The type of problem you are having could be either
a
mechanical or electrical failure. The manuals are
absolutely
indispensable for you to diagnose your own car. My
personal
experience has been that dealership mechanics have not read
the
service manual nor know how to restrain themselves when using
air
tools to tighten bolts or nuts. Also, they think everything is
caused
by a faulty $1000 ECU because they lack the simple discipline
to
follow troubleshooting procedures outlined clearly in the manuals.
I have not had this particular problem, but my guess would be
to
check out the following items (not necessarily in this
particular
order):
1) coils (3 of them located were you see the 6 plugs
wires together),
2) crank/cam position sensor (located in front of the
throttle body -
'91 & '92 models only),
3) throttle cable tension
plus the black box next to the driver's
side strut tower that the cable goes
through (backfires can occur if
the cable is too tight),
4) dashpot
(disk-shaped item next to the throttle body that eases the
throttle plate
closed - backfires can occur if plate closes to soon),
5) idle servo
control (ISC) stepper motor (this might easily be it, a
bad one can cause
poor idle and acceleration),
6) throttle position sensor (could be
loose?),
7) MAS - temp and pressure sensors plus air flow signal, and
8)
ECU (please follow all precautions when dealing with this
expensive item; a
bad ECU one could cause any of your symptoms).
Plus I'm sure the manual will
have additional suggestions - such as
vacuum/pressure leaks.
All of
the devices mentioned above are easy to get to and
troubleshoot using simple
tools and a $16 digital voltmeter from
Radio Shack. It should take no more
than a full work day.
PS. Are you sure someone took the time to replace
the rear spark
plugs and wires? This task is much harder than doing any of
the 8
checks above.
Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476,
StealthMan92@yahoo.comStealth
316
-->
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/The
new 3/S Backup CD Homepage
-->
http://www.manualcd.com/- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Danny Erick" <
ttstealth@hotmail.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Cc:
<
mn3s@egroups.com>; <
stealth@stls.verio.net>
Sent:
Sunday, July 30, 2000 10:51 PM
Subject: Team3S: Need help! (Previously "Check
Engine light coming
on")
OK guys, I'm getting desperate! I got new
plugs and wires this week
as it was suggested but the car has gotten worse =(
It's started
backfiring really bad now. The tach jumps all over, sometimes
falling
to 100 RPMs and almost dieing. When cruising sometime the tach
will
jump back and forth even though you can hear that the engine
speed
isn't changing and sometimes the car will still hesitate. The
check
engine light comes on but USUALLY shuts back off when I give it
some
gas. Once it seemed to get worse as I started running low on
fuel.
It's like the car can't make up it's mind. lol I'm stumped and
I
really need transportation to work. One day it seems to run fine and
the
next day I can't even use the Stealth. It's kinda off and on.
Could the ECU
be going bad? Bad fuel pump? Coil? I'm not too
mechanically inclined and I
sure don't have the cash to keep fixing
whatever I THINK the problem is. I
need to get the problem pinpointed
but I'm not sure how. Can anyone help
me???
Thanks for all the help.
Dan Erick
92 Stealth R/T
TT
__________________________________________________
Do You
Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:23:15
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: sway bars and bushings
>> If you felt lucky and wanted
to try fitting them, here are
>> the part numbers:
> Thanks
for the effort, but I don't want to gamble $105 (plus
> shipping) just to
experiment.
Really? Seems a lot cheaper than many other experiments
I've seen on this
list. ;-)
I suppose I'll try it and post the
results, but I won't be able to tackle it
for a while.
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:21:27
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: [mn3s] Need help! (Previously "Check Engine light coming
on")
> The tach jumps all over, sometimes falling to 100 RPMs and
almost
> dieing. When cruising sometime the tach will jump back and
forth
> even though you can hear that the engine speed isn't
changing
> and sometimes the car will still hesitate.
Sounds like
the ECU to me... ECU controls the tach and similar symptoms are
seen on
Talon/Eclipse/Laser cars as the ECU capacitors deteriorate.
-
-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:10:25
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Turbo pressure only under load...
Roger,
The term "fire" is
commonly used in many contexts in conversation. In the
context below it
is intended to mean "execute a fuel delivery event". Kind
of like the
endless meanings of the word "run". Gotta love
English...
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Roger Gerl (RTEC)
> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:21 AM
>
To:
team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo pressure only under load...
>
>
>
> The ECU really doesn't know whether the engine is under load or not,
it
> > simply stops firing injectors when the engine is over a certain
RPM (rev
> > limit). The engine will go over, the injectors will stop
injecting, the
> > engine will slow slightly, a couple injectors will
fire (pushing the
> engine
> > back over the limit), and the
cycle continues - very quickly. The bottom
> > line is, while the
injectors may fire a couple times, it will skip many
> > shots waiting
for the engine to slow.
>
> I could't follow exactly what Bob meant
but the injectors are not
> individually actuated. The rev limiter has
nothing to do with the
> injectors
> and when we say firing, we
really mean the spark. The injectors cannot
> "fire" anything. The
injectors are shut off when fuel-cut is initiated.
> Unlike other cars we
do not have a shut off vlave and this is why the ECU
> simply switches the
injectors and ignition off (and all who had this
> experience no the
danger of the tooths !). The rev limtier works only for
> the ignition.
Also, it is impossible that the injectors will be opened
> several times
during a cycle. There is just no time for that ! This is why
> we have the
IDC where we exactly know how long an injector is open at a
> specific
rpm/load level.
<snip>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT
TT
>
www.rtec.ch***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:16:26
-0400
From: "Eddie" <
stealth3@superservers.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flow sensor is
disconnected
Hello,
I would greatly appreciate your
help or ideas.
Recently my car has been acting up..
Here is a description:
A few months ago, if I start the car when the
engine is cold it was fine..
If I start it back up after being shut off
(still warm) an hour later, it
will start, but the tach bounces between
300-700RPMS (every second). Once I
drive a block or so, and it was
fine..
Last week, I was driving on the interstate, and it
died.
When I press down an 1" on the pedal it is fine
When I press
down 2"-4" there is no power (it still runs, but no power, just
like at
idle)
When I press down 5"+ (3/4 to full throttle) I have power
again.
I unplugged the MAS and it fixed the problem! (ran like crap, but
I had
power)
So I replaced the $400 MAS (mass air flow sensor) and it
didn't correct the
problem! - In fact, it seems worse.. Now if the MAS is
plugged in, it won't
even idle.. The car will start, (if I INSTANTLY hold the
pedal down 1/2 way
it will rev up to 3k or 4k RPMS) then die within 3-4
seconds. (no matter
what I do with the pedal)
However, if I leave the
MAS unplugged it runs. Idles, and always have power.
Do you guys have any
ideas here?
My check engine light has NOT came on! (unless the MAS is
disconnected)
I took off my Profec A boost controller, only mod is a
K&N FIPK.
Thanks!
Eddie
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:32:34
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flow sensor is
disconnected
Sounds like it could have something to do with the throttle
position sensor
(TPS) and/or idle control solenoid (ICS). It could also
be faulty wiring
somewhere, a blown ECU, or a bevy of other things, but the
TPS is what I'd
be checking first.
Barry
Just what is a
bevy anyway? <grin>
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> Hello,
> I would
greatly appreciate your help or ideas.
>
>
Recently my car has been acting up.. Here is a description:
>
> A
few months ago, if I start the car when the engine is cold it was
fine..
>
> If I start it back up after being shut off (still warm)
an hour later, it
> will start, but the tach bounces between 300-700RPMS
(every
> second). Once I
> drive a block or so, and it was
fine..
>
> Last week, I was driving on the interstate, and it
died.
>
> When I press down an 1" on the pedal it is fine
>
When I press down 2"-4" there is no power (it still runs, but no
> power,
just
> like at idle)
> When I press down 5"+ (3/4 to full throttle)
I have power again.
>
> I unplugged the MAS and it fixed the
problem! (ran like crap, but I had
> power)
>
> So I replaced
the $400 MAS (mass air flow sensor) and it didn't
> correct the
>
problem! - In fact, it seems worse.. Now if the MAS is plugged
> in, it
won't
> even idle.. The car will start, (if I INSTANTLY hold the
pedal
> down 1/2 way
> it will rev up to 3k or 4k RPMS) then die
within 3-4 seconds. (no matter
> what I do with the pedal)
>
>
However, if I leave the MAS unplugged it runs. Idles, and always
> have
power.
>
> Do you guys have any ideas here?
>
> My check
engine light has NOT came on! (unless the MAS is disconnected)
>
> I
took off my Profec A boost controller, only mod is a K&N
FIPK.
>
> Thanks!
> Eddie
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:37:12
-0400
From: "Eddie" <
stealth3@superservers.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flow sensor is
disconnected
Thanks for the info Barry..
Do you think I can clean
the TPS? or will I need to order a replacement?
Thanks again..
-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
To: <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Monday, July 31, 2000 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't
run unless Mass Air Flow
sensor is disconnected
> Sounds like
it could have something to do with the throttle position
sensor
> (TPS)
and/or idle control solenoid (ICS). It could also be faulty wiring
>
somewhere, a blown ECU, or a bevy of other things, but the TPS is what
I'd
> be checking first.
>
>
>
Barry
>
>
> Just what is a bevy anyway?
<grin>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
>
> > Hello,
> > I would greatly
appreciate your help or ideas.
> >
> >
Recently my car has been acting up.. Here is a description:
> >
>
> A few months ago, if I start the car when the engine is cold it
was
fine..
> >
> > If I start it back up after being shut
off (still warm) an hour later,
it
> > will start, but the tach
bounces between 300-700RPMS (every
> > second). Once I
> >
drive a block or so, and it was fine..
> >
> > Last week, I
was driving on the interstate, and it died.
> >
> > When I
press down an 1" on the pedal it is fine
> > When I press down 2"-4"
there is no power (it still runs, but no
> > power, just
> >
like at idle)
> > When I press down 5"+ (3/4 to full throttle) I have
power again.
> >
> > I unplugged the MAS and it fixed the
problem! (ran like crap, but I had
> > power)
> >
> >
So I replaced the $400 MAS (mass air flow sensor) and it didn't
> >
correct the
> > problem! - In fact, it seems worse.. Now if the MAS is
plugged
> > in, it won't
> > even idle.. The car will start,
(if I INSTANTLY hold the pedal
> > down 1/2 way
> > it will
rev up to 3k or 4k RPMS) then die within 3-4 seconds. (no matter
> >
what I do with the pedal)
> >
> > However, if I leave the MAS
unplugged it runs. Idles, and always
> > have power.
>
>
> > Do you guys have any ideas here?
> >
> > My
check engine light has NOT came on! (unless the MAS is disconnected)
>
>
> > I took off my Profec A boost controller, only mod is a K&N
FIPK.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
Eddie
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:53:02
-0400
From: "John T. Christian" <
jczoom@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Need help!
Hi Dan,
Maybe it could be simple ...
Like the
battery ready to die.
Mine really acts funny every two years as the
battery starts to fail.
Check the easy things first.
Be of good
cheer,
John
[snip]
g and sometimes the car will still hesitate. The
check
> engine light comes on but USUALLY shuts back off when I give it
some
> gas. Once it seemed to get worse as I started running low on
fuel.
> It's like the car can't make up it's mind. lol I'm stumped and
I
> really need transportation to work. One day it seems to run fine
and
> the next day I can't even use the Stealth. It's kinda off and
on.
> Could the ECU be going bad? Bad fuel pump? Coil? I'm not too
>
mechanically inclined and I sure don't have the cash to keep fixing
>
whatever I THINK the problem is. I need to get the problem pinpointed
>
but I'm not sure how. Can anyone help me???
> Thanks for all the
help.
>
> Dan Erick
> 92 Stealth R/T TT
>
>
__
- --
JCZoooM 93 TT 12.46@109Mph Now with Porsche
brakes & Supra rotors
Email--->
JCZooM@iname.com http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:01:36
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flow sensor is
disconnected
I do not know the precise procedure for checking the TPS on
our cars.
You'll have to check the service manual to be sure.
If the
TPS is operating within specification it may just need to be
adjusted.
If it is not working correctly it will need to be replaced and
set up
properly.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
>
> Thanks for the info Barry..
>
>
Do you think I can clean the TPS? or will I need to order a
replacement?
>
> Thanks again..
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:11:24
-0400
From:
Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.comSubject:
Team3S: Clutch MC Replacement - What a Pain!!!
Last week, I posted some
questions about replacing the clutch master
cylinder on my VR4. I appreciate
your responses, especially the one who
informed me that this would be a
"gruelling 3 hour task" (sorry I lost your
address). Well, this weekend I
replaced it, and it took me a
knuckle-busting name-calling aggrivating and
exasperating 4 hours! I still
can't figure out why Mitsu designed that
frickin' clutch tube the way they
did! It seems silly to have to remove
the brake MC, brake booster,
battery, and a bunch of plumbing connections
just to replace a clutch MC. I
got everything buttoned back up and finished
cleaning up all the fluid that
had spilled everywhere, then remembered I had
to bleed the system. So out
comes the battery again -- and the battery tray,
the windshield washer
bottle, and a few more plumbing connections, just so I
could get to the
slave cylinder! Anyway, all works fine, now, and
in another week or so,
hopefully all my cuts, bruises, and pulled muscles
will heal. By the way,
the clutch MC on a Stealth TT is the same part
number as for the VR4, if
you ever get in a bind and need one
fast.
Jeff Williamson
Belleville, MI
'92 VR4
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:31:08
-0700
From: Daniel Jett <
djett@corp.ultratech.com>
Subject:
Re: RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flow sensor is
disconnected
I fail to see how a TPS can be cleaned...Try rotating the
TPS ever so slightly to try and even your idle out. I am not sure what the spec
is (manuals not present) for testing it with a DVM, but that may help. Perhaps
you should try removing the Y pipe as well, and inspecting the throttle
body...There are two ports (IAC ports) at the bottom of the TB which can get
clogged. You can clean those and see if that helps.
Good luck!
Dan
Jett
94 Stealth TT
>>> "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com> - 7/31/00 12:01 PM
>>>
I do not know the precise procedure for checking the TPS on our
cars.
You'll have to check the service manual to be sure.
If the TPS
is operating within specification it may just need to be
adjusted. If
it is not working correctly it will need to be replaced and
set up
properly.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
>
> Thanks for the info Barry..
>
>
Do you think I can clean the TPS? or will I need to order a
replacement?
>
> Thanks again..
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:35:39
-0700
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: KVR pads -any good-
> I have a quick
question. I am looking for some new brake pads for my
> car,
and one option that I ran across was KVR carbon fiber pads.
>
> I
know nothing of these, and how well they perform against stock-ish
rotors,
> but would like some opinions.
>
> If they are
carbon fiber, I would imagine that they would be very harsh
> against the
rotors and take a while to "warm up".
>
> Any opinions? What
other pads should I look at? My intended use is purely
> for street,
but I do want something with more grip than the stock pads.
I run these
on the street and one time at the track (driver's school). I like
them
very much, they are great for a $63/set pad. They do take 1 stop, or
about
3/4 second during a hard stop, to warm up to full grip -- this could be
a
problem if you have to slam on the brakes on the freeway though and in this
case
stock pads will be better. They don't appear to be harsh on the
rotors
(Porterfield cryo treated). They do dust more than stock
too. On the track,
they work great (from 110 mph). They resist
fade but will ultimately succumb to
fading. They however perform much
better, resist fading much better, stop
harder, and last longer than stock
pads. Whatever you get, don't forget to give
them the BBQ
treatment.
Ken,
'91 VR4
- --
Forget world peace -- visualize
using your turn signal!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General
Atomics
San Diego
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:41:44
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flo w sensor is
disconnected
> I fail to see how a TPS can be cleaned...Try rotating
the
> TPS ever so slightly to try and even your idle out. I am
> not
sure what the spec is (manuals not present) for
> testing it with a DVM,
but that may help.
Spec is .400 to 1.000v with a fairly thin feeler gauge
between the throttle
plate arm and the fixed "pin" that it rests on. If
you measure at the ECU
(don't recall offhand which pin it is) you should be
good if you see
something like .600-.750 with the pedal released and nothing
special set-up.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:58:36
-0600
From: Dean Knoepfle <
speedfreek@uswest.net>
Subject:
Team3S: best clutch for high HP!!
What is the exact name of the clutch
that Jack T. is now
using? Is it the best clutch for our cars, how much
more
clutch pressure is there, how much does it cost, and where
is the
best place to purchase it from?
Do some of you have the same
clutch? Are you happy with it?
And last but not least have you sucessfully
tried to do a
hard launch feathering the clutch at high RPM
without
burning the shit of it.
Thanks, Dean
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1994
Black VR4: IHI turbos, HKS VPC & GCC, 550cc injectors,
HKS
intercoolers, ported & polished heads, extrude-honed
intake, HKS mega
flow filters, HKS 3" exhaust w/5" tip, ATR
high flow cat, gutted pre-cats,
custom Y-pipe & downpipe,
Greddy Profec A boost contoller, Greddy turbo
timer, hard IC
pipe kit, Eibach 1" lowering springs, Brembo 4
piston
calipers and rotors on front, white faced gauges, Greddy
peak hold
boost, oil pressure, and (2) EGT gauges......
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:11:30
-0500
From: "Bob Cox" <
Bob_Cox@vintagetul.com>
Subject:
Team3S: For Sale: 95 VR-4 White Stock 49k mi, $22k, Tulsa, OK
Late last
year I bought a 99 VR-4 and it has taken me this long to decide to sell the
95. This was the last year for active aero and 4-wheel steering. The
car has a black leather interior, 6-CD player and P-Zero tires. It has
been garaged at home and at work. I am willing to pay a $500 finder's fee
to the person who first introduces the buyer.
If interested e-mail me at
bob.cox@vintagetul.com or call me at
(918)878-5730.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:17:07
-0400
From: "Eddie" <
stealth3@superservers.net>
Subject:
Re: RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flow sensor is
disconnected
> Spec is .400 to 1.000v with a fairly thin feeler gauge
between the
throttle
> plate arm and the fixed "pin" that it rests
on. If you measure at the ECU
> (don't recall offhand which pin it
is) you should be good if you see
> something like .600-.750 with the
pedal released and nothing special
set-up.
Thanks for the info
Matt.
That was the problem..
I just put a new one in, and runs like a
champ.
One thing I did notice is that my car usually idles at 2k RPM if I
am going
over 15MPH. - If I slow down, then it returns to the normal
idle..
When the TPS was shot, the car did not do this.. - Maybe this will
help
someone out in the future.
Thanks for the help
guys!
Eddie
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#220
*********************
team3s
Tuesday, August 1
2000
Volume 01 : Number
221
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:28:15 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run unless Mass Air Flo w sensor is
disconnected
> One thing I did notice is that my car usually idles
at
> 2k RPM if I am going over 15MPH. - If I slow down,
> then it
returns to the normal idle..
Hmm, it'll normally idle a little high when
slowing down to try to keep
enough vacuum to run the brake booster and stuff,
but 2k sounds a bit high.
Now that you have your initial problem fixed, the
ECU might refigure your
idle settings again. Maybe disconnect the
battery for a few minutes to
clear out any strange compensations for when the
TPS was bad and that might
clear it up. If that doesn't correct it, you
can try to reset the base idle
set-screw on the throttle body.
Instructions on the correct way to do it
are in the service manual. You
have to ground a certain pin on the test
connector or somesuch and adjust it
to idle at 750 RPM when the engine is
warmed up.
I haven't
specifically paid attention to where my car idles on deceleration,
but I
think it is more around 1100-1200 RPM.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:33:19
-0700
From: "Vineet Singh" <
billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RE: [mn3s] Need help! (Previously "Check Engine light coming
on")
In addition to the ECU (which should store a fault code anyway!
have
you checked that yet? Even if the CE light is not on, if it turned
on,
there will be a fault stored in it), it could be the reed type
"speed
sensor" that the Mitsu ECU's use... it could also be coil packs,
power
transistor, or maybe even faulty plug wires. In any case, since
you
said the CE light came on, check for codes, you will be much
more
informed then.
Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM
& 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:39:11
-0700
From: "Vineet Singh" <
billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run ...
> Sounds like it could
have something to do with the throttle position
sensor
> (TPS) and/or
idle control solenoid (ICS). It could also be faulty
wiring
>
somewhere, a blown ECU, or a bevy of other things, but the TPS is
what
I'd
> be checking first.
>
I don't believe that a TPS will
cause such a profound change in the
engine operation. Again, even if the CE
light isn't on, codes will be
stored if the ECU detected something out of
whack (including TPS
problems). The only cars a TPS will REALLY cause
problems is on the
A/T's, when you find the car shifting at really weird
times, or not at
all.
$400 MAF? Geez... I guess it's time for people
to start looking at the
caps in the 3/S cars as well, as this actually sounds
a lot like what
it does on DSM's when the caps go out. The ICS will really
only affect
things at IDLE, so you should rule that out too. Can you return
the
MAF?
Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM
& 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:45:44
-0700
From: "Vineet Singh" <
billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run ...
"Thanks for the info
Matt.
That was the problem..
I just put a new one in, and runs like a
champ." (TPS)
Well I'll be darned! A TPS did all that? That's really
weird... makes
me want to go test it out by unplugging mine... but I will
take your
word for it! Cool!
Every TPS that I have seen go "bad" is
more of an "intermittent"
bad... it's a variable resistor, and acts very much
like the volume
control on an old crappy stereo... When you go to change the
volume,
you hear crackling, this crackling is what really screws with
the
ECU's view of the world (and is actually how it checks for proper
TPS
operation). On a datalogger, while floored, I could see my TPS
values
look more like "noise" rather than a smooth transition from one
point
to another.
Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM
& 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:49:19
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Any Help?? - Engine won't run ...
The TPS (as was suggested and has been
demonstrated) is a critical input
into the operation of the engine
management system. The ICS can affect off
idle fuel delivery as
well. Although it is intended to control idle, it
does not mean that
when it is malfunctioning that it won't have adverse
affects elsewhere.
Case in point is when it is attempting to hold the
throttle open to the
extent it is able.
The DSM notion of changing the ECM caps is well
known. Not every MAF
related problem has to do with the capacitors on
the ECM. The capcitors
should last 5-7 years or more of normal use (not
bashing the ECM around a
lot for instance, operating within normal
temperatures) unless the ECM is
designed improperly in the first place.
The MAF is a very sensitive device
and is easily damaged by dirt, debris,
oil, (usually result of improper
filter type or improper filter cleaning) and
physical abuse (like
mishandling and randomly cutting out sections of the air
straightners aka
"honeycombs").
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
>
> > Sounds like it could have something to
do with the throttle position
> sensor
> > (TPS) and/or idle
control solenoid (ICS). It could also be faulty
> wiring
>
> somewhere, a blown ECU, or a bevy of other things, but the TPS is
>
what I'd
> > be checking first.
> >
>
> I don't
believe that a TPS will cause such a profound change in the
> engine
operation. Again, even if the CE light isn't on, codes will be
> stored if
the ECU detected something out of whack (including TPS
> problems). The
only cars a TPS will REALLY cause problems is on the
> A/T's, when you
find the car shifting at really weird times, or not at
>
all.
>
> $400 MAF? Geez... I guess it's time for people to start
looking at the
> caps in the 3/S cars as well, as this actually sounds a
lot like what
> it does on DSM's when the caps go out. The ICS will really
only affect
> things at IDLE, so you should rule that out too. Can you
return the
> MAF?
>
> Vineet Singh
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:04:22
-0400
From: Ron Thompson <
rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Fw: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
Geoff, did you also make the
drive shaft a one piece unit instead of
two with the carrier
bearing?
RT
Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> Ive gained over
40Hp, and 60Lbs of torque in dropping about 70lbs of
> driveline mass so
far.
>
> That math, on a dyno, tells me something.
>
>
I just cant belive my car was somehow in one piece at 186,000 miles if I
>
had that much power being lost to imbalance.
>
> PS: Dont think im
just tryin to call you wrong..im not. Just that I cant
> belive that
100yrs of conventional wisdom on lightweight uses for
> racing..is
suddenly wrong.
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------
> | Get your
FREE Speedtoys.com/net/org Email/WWW account at: |
> |
accounts@speedtoys.com. Include
preferred name and |
> | password (hey..its free,
no fancy CGI passwd thingie here |
>
|
plus a 40Mb quota to
boot).
|
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, Bbizo wrote:
>
> >
>
>
> > > Yes, were talkng acceleration..which is what and where it
all matters at.
> >
> > I'll make one more reasoned argument
and then I give. Your statement that
> > you got more torque at your
rear wheels was a steady state condition. In
> > other words, your car
was being tested at given RPMs and throttle settings.
> > At least
those transitions were slow relatiave to race conditions. It is
> >
highly unlikely that the dyno could test for the difference in
acceleration
> > of the drive shaft. That being the case, the torque
increase you saw was not
> > the result of reduced moment of inertia of
the drive shaft (only shows up in
> > acceleration) but some other
reduction in power loss. That would most likely
> > be reduced loss
from reduced vibration. The acceleration component of this
> > was the
subject of my original post. The acceleration of the drive shaft is
> >
an infitesmal portion of the acceleration of the vehicle, too small to
>
> measure. I believe you had a reduction in loss with the lighter shaft.
I'm
> > just saying that it wasn't a result of the weight itself, more
likely
> > something else.
> >
> > Bob
Bissonette
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:53:23
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Any Help?? - Engine won't run ...
> The DSM notion of
changing the ECM caps is well known.
> Not every MAF related problem has
to do with the
> capacitors on the ECM. The capcitors should last
5-7
> years or more of normal use (...)
Okay, so 5-7 years.
That would mean that any '91-95 car could possibly have
leaking capacitors at
this point. That covers the vast majority of 3/S cars
on the road
today. It is pretty easy to check for, and easy to replace the
caps if
you can desolder/solder well. You could almost look at it as
standard
preventative maintenance, spending a couple bucks on capacitors
every 5-7
years and preventing major ECU damage.
Obviously it won't be the root of
all problems, but it is something to at
least keep in mind as a replacement
ECU isn't cheap to acquire.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:54:35
-0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Fw: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
When we do that this
summer..it will be a one piece shaft.
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Ron Thompson [
mailto:rtetetet@earthlink.net]
Sent:
Monday, July 31, 2000 4:04 PM
To: Geoff Mohler
Cc:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Fw: Team3S: An outsider's look at a VR4
Geoff, did you also make
the drive shaft a one piece unit instead of
two with the carrier
bearing?
RT
Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> Ive gained over
40Hp, and 60Lbs of torque in dropping about 70lbs of
> driveline mass so
far.
>
> That math, on a dyno, tells me something.
>
>
I just cant belive my car was somehow in one piece at 186,000 miles if I
>
had that much power being lost to imbalance.
>
> PS: Dont think im
just tryin to call you wrong..im not. Just that I cant
> belive that
100yrs of conventional wisdom on lightweight uses for
> racing..is
suddenly wrong.
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------
> | Get your
FREE Speedtoys.com/net/org Email/WWW account at: |
> |
accounts@speedtoys.com. Include
preferred name and |
> | password (hey..its free,
no fancy CGI passwd thingie here |
>
|
plus a 40Mb quota to
boot).
|
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, Bbizo wrote:
>
> >
>
>
> > > Yes, were talkng acceleration..which is what and where it
all matters at.
> >
> > I'll make one more reasoned argument
and then I give. Your statement that
> > you got more torque at your
rear wheels was a steady state condition. In
> > other words, your car
was being tested at given RPMs and throttle settings.
> > At least
those transitions were slow relatiave to race conditions. It is
> >
highly unlikely that the dyno could test for the difference in
acceleration
> > of the drive shaft. That being the case, the torque
increase you saw was not
> > the result of reduced moment of inertia of
the drive shaft (only shows up in
> > acceleration) but some other
reduction in power loss. That would most likely
> > be reduced loss
from reduced vibration. The acceleration component of this
> > was the
subject of my original post. The acceleration of the drive shaft is
> >
an infitesmal portion of the acceleration of the vehicle, too small to
>
> measure. I believe you had a reduction in loss with the lighter shaft.
I'm
> > just saying that it wasn't a result of the weight itself, more
likely
> > something else.
> >
> > Bob
Bissonette
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 19:07:19
-0500
From: "Craig Hodges" <
chodges@texas.net>
Subject: Team3S:
MAS and FIPK cleaning
I have a '99 VR4, w/ a FIPK, Greedy BOV-S. I
do my best to shift @ 2K and
try to keep it there while driving in town. The
best gas mileage I can get
is 14.8 to 15.2 MPG. I cleaned the FIPK and
re-oiled it with the K&N filter
oil. But I may have gotten too much oil
on it. Could this effect the MAS by
possibly creating an oil mist when
the car was started with the newly oiled
filter? Coating the inside of the
MAS with a very light film of oil.
Would this effect my gas mileage?
If
so, how do I go about cleaning the MAS? I don't know for a fact that I
put
too much oil on the filter. But, I would think I should get better
gas
mileage. The car has 6800 miles on it and I intentionally try to drive
it
easy to maximize the fuel. Any ideas?
Suggestions?
Thanks
Craig
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:10:33
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: MAS and FIPK cleaning
Driving it TOO easy can also be a
problem. If the RPM's are too low when
youshift, then the engine has to
work harder just to accelerate the car.
Try driving normally for a
while. Lugging the engine under 2000rpm's in
higher gears isn't
necessary - it takes alot more fuel to make power to
accelerate down that
low. Rev he engine - it's made for it - and you;ll
probably see the
fuel economy go up.
Excessive oil on the filter will not hurt gas milaget
hat much, nor will a
little extra oil in the intake...
I found the
best way to get good gas milage from the Eclipse Turbo i had
(just sold
it) was to play with it - have fun, listen to those turbos
spool, and I
stil got 20 mpg... About what you should get with
proper
driving... My Non-turbo 3000GT is the same way.. I drive it
normally, maybe
even a little rough on it, and it still gets 18 mpg...
(30 on the highway)
- -Cody
(take it for a cruise at 70-80 mph some
time, then check your milage...
(where in Texas are you??? - I'm in South
Padre)
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Craig Hodges
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 7:07 PM
To: Team
3000GT
Subject: Team3S: MAS and FIPK cleaning
I have a '99
VR4, w/ a FIPK, Greedy BOV-S. I do my best to shift @ 2K and
try to
keep it there while driving in town. The best gas mileage I can get
is 14.8
to 15.2 MPG. I cleaned the FIPK and re-oiled it with the K&N
filter
oil. But I may have gotten too much oil on it. Could this effect
the MAS by
possibly creating an oil mist when the car was started with the
newly oiled
filter? Coating the inside of the MAS with a very light film of
oil.
Would this effect my gas mileage?
If so, how do I go about cleaning
the MAS? I don't know for a fact that I
put too much oil on the filter. But,
I would think I should get better gas
mileage. The car has 6800 miles on it
and I intentionally try to drive it
easy to maximize the fuel. Any ideas?
Suggestions?
Thanks
Craig
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:26:26
-0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
MAS and FIPK cleaning
Oil in the intake in general is not cool. If
it gets into the combustion
chamber it will lower the detonation point of the
fuel/air charge. This is
a very bad thing for any engine be it forced
induction or otherwise. At the
mild end of the spectrum you'll get
reduced power and ping. At the extreme
end you'll get full bown
detonation and broken engine parts. A _very_ small
amount of oil is
expected which is accounted for in the engine (as a
system)
design.
Excessive oil on an oiled filter (not all are designed
for oil) can
definitely hurt performance. The filter will not be able
to filter as
effectively and will take a while (if it ever does) before it
allows the
flow it was designed for with the proper amount of oil. This
affects
mixture, which affects drivability and performance in
general.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
Driving it TOO easy can also be a problem. If the RPM's are too low
when
> youshift, then the engine has to work harder just to accelerate the
car.
> Try driving normally for a while. Lugging the engine under
2000rpm's in
> higher gears isn't necessary - it takes alot more fuel to
make power to
> accelerate down that low. Rev he engine - it's made
for it - and you;ll
> probably see the fuel economy go up.
>
>
Excessive oil on the filter will not hurt gas milaget hat much, nor will
a
> little extra oil in the intake...
>
> I found the best way
to get good gas milage from the Eclipse Turbo i had
> (just sold it)
was to play with it - have fun, listen to those turbos
> spool, and I stil
got 20 mpg... About what you should get with proper
>
driving... My Non-turbo 3000GT is the same way.. I drive it
>
normally, maybe
> even a little rough on it, and it still gets 18
mpg... (30 on
> the highway)
>
> -Cody
> (take it
for a cruise at 70-80 mph some time, then check your milage...
> (where in
Texas are you??? - I'm in South Padre)
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:29:12
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: MAS and FIPK cleaning
Excessive oil on an oiled filter (not all
are designed for oil) can
definitely hurt performance. The filter will
not be able to filter as
effectively and will take a while (if it ever does)
before it allows the
flow it was designed for with the proper amount of
oil. This affects
mixture, which affects drivability and performance in
general.
Barry
I understand this, but the first time I
re-oiled a K&N filter, i over oiled
the hell out of it, and my Eclispe
was still fine... It still got decent
gas milage, and all...
-
-Cody
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:50:53
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: MAS and FIPK cleaning
> I have a '99 VR4, w/ a FIPK,
Greedy BOV-S. I do my
> best to shift @ 2K and try to keep it there
while
> driving in town. The best gas mileage I can get
> is 14.8 to
15.2 MPG. I cleaned the FIPK and
> re-oiled it with the K&N
filter oil. But I may have
> gotten too much oil on it. Could this
effect the
> MAS by possibly creating an oil mist when the car
> was
started with the newly oiled filter?
First off, you need to drive your
VR4 like a sports car and not an
econo-box. The motors in these cars
are made for better efficiency at a
higher RPM - especially the ones equipped
with turbos like yours. I would
shift no earlier than 3,000 RPM and in
general you get the best cruising
mileage around 2800-3000 RPM with stock
turbos. Shifting at a higher RPM
doesn't mean that you have to go
wide-open-throttle to get there, you can
still take it easy but just shift
later.
Sixth gear is pretty much there just for looks if you are going
legal speeds
in the U.S. You can use it, but I've found (at least in my
car) that 5th
and 6th result in similar fuel economy with 5th gear giving
substantially
more pull to the car when needed for going up hills with the
cruise on and
such.
Getting oil in the MAS is definitely not a good
thing, but it shouldn't be
affected as much as a hot-wire style meter would
be. It really shouldn't
affect the vortex detector much (if at
all). As far as cleaning goes, maybe
carburetor cleaner would work
since it evaporates quickly (NOT saying you
should try it). I'd be
tempted to just leave it alone and see if changing
your driving style helps
first before chancing causing worse problems than
what you have
now.
As a comparison, I get about 18 MPG in the city, 22 MPG on the
highway with
the top up. Subtract 5 MPG from each with the top
down. ;-) I drive
pretty much how I described above, only my
shift points are more in the
4,000 RPM range to make better use of the 15G
turbos (and resulting change
in engine efficiency points) on my car, and I
cruise at 3,000-3,300 RPM in
either 4th or 5th gear on the highway depending
on the speed limit.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 03:08:42
-0400
From: Nick Xiong <
nxiong@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S:
PROFEC:learning process
those of you w/Profecs and/or other fuzzy logic
units, did u do the
learning process in 2nd, 3rd or 4th gear? the
Profec guide recommends
3rd or 4th but the car being as loud (borla, DP, no
cats) as it is, makes
me afraid to go WOT (cop-magnet). definately am
NOT doing a 4th gear run
(155+mph). 3rd gear is still up there
(115+mph). Will 2nd gear give
enough of a load to accurately represent
the boost curve to the profec?
or should I stick w/the 3rd gear runs (&
hope for the
best)?
________________________________________________________________
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 09:58:02
-0400
From: Brian Geisel <
brian.geisel@compaq.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: best clutch for high HP!!
Dean,
I just bought a Mueller
redhead dual-friction clutch and lightweight
flywheel. I haven't gotten
the car back yet, but I know Matt Monet runs
11s with it. He has made
100s of runs on this clutch w/o burning it
out. He swears buy it.
He actually launched a no NOS 60' time of 1.62
w/ this clutch. It isn't
cheap, but it sure seems to be pretty
enduring. And if/when you do burn
out the discs Meuller will rebuild
them for like $200 or something very
reasonable. It supposedly doesn't
have a rough push to it either
(street drivable). I will tell you how
all goes when I get it back
today or tomorrow.
In the maeanwhile check it out at
http://www.muellerfabricators.comor
at Matts site
http://www.dynamicracing1.comHTH,
geis
Dean
Knoepfle wrote:
>
> What is the exact name of the clutch that Jack
T. is now
> using? Is it the best clutch for our cars, how much
more
> clutch pressure is there, how much does it cost, and where
>
is the best place to purchase it from?
>
> Do some of you have the
same clutch? Are you happy with it?
> And last but not least have you
sucessfully tried to do a
> hard launch feathering the clutch at high RPM
without
> burning the shit of it.
>
> Thanks,
Dean
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
1994 Black VR4: IHI turbos, HKS VPC & GCC, 550cc injectors,
>
HKS intercoolers, ported & polished heads, extrude-honed
> intake, HKS
mega flow filters, HKS 3" exhaust w/5" tip, ATR
> high flow cat, gutted
pre-cats, custom Y-pipe & downpipe,
> Greddy Profec A boost contoller,
Greddy turbo timer, hard IC
> pipe kit, Eibach 1" lowering springs, Brembo
4 piston
> calipers and rotors on front, white faced gauges,
Greddy
> peak hold boost, oil pressure, and (2) EGT gauges......
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 11:16:13
-0400
From: Rick Diogo <
rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject:
Team3S: ****New Vr-4 parts for sale****
Just wanted to let everyone know
the status on the parts I have left:
Factory service manuals: 93,
94, and 95 - all sold
Factory 94 R/T tt front rotors -
sold
Factory RKE transmitter - sold
R/T tt (vr-4) water pump -
still available
R/T tt (vr-4) - factory turbochargers - still
available
Both the water pump and the turbos are brand spanking new in
their sealed
Mitsubishi boxes.
Water pump - list price
$110.00
will sell for $70.00
Turbochargers - List price
$2,428.68
will sell for $1,000 for the pair!
Please email
privately. First come first served.
Rick Diogo
00'
GTS
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:54:12
-0500
From:
sjc0u812@juno.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
best clutch for high HP!!
Brian:
Please do. I'd like a new
one but I need it to be reasonable, like the
stock
push.
Thanks,
SJ
On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 09:58:02 -0400 Brian
Geisel <
brian.geisel@compaq.com>
writes:
>
Dean,
> I just bought a Mueller redhead dual-friction clutch and
>
lightweight
> flywheel. I haven't gotten the car back yet, but I
know Matt Monet
> runs
> 11s with it. He has made 100s of
runs on this clutch w/o burning it
> out. He swears buy it. He
actually launched a no NOS 60' time of
> 1.62
> w/ this
clutch. It isn't cheap, but it sure seems to be pretty
>
enduring. And if/when you do burn out the discs Meuller will
>
rebuild
> them for like $200 or something very reasonable. It
supposedly
> doesn't
> have a rough push to it either (street
drivable). I will tell you
> how
> all goes when I get it
back today or tomorrow.
>
> In the maeanwhile check it out at
http://www.muellerfabricators.com>
or at Matts site
http://www.dynamicracing1.com>
> HTH,
> geis
>
> Dean Knoepfle wrote:
> >
> > What is the exact name of the clutch that Jack T. is now
>
> using? Is it the best clutch for our cars, how much more
> >
clutch pressure is there, how much does it cost, and where
> > is the
best place to purchase it from?
> >
> > Do some of you have
the same clutch? Are you happy with it?
> > And last but not least have
you sucessfully tried to do a
> > hard launch feathering the clutch at
high RPM without
> > burning the shit of it.
> >
> >
Thanks, Dean
> >
>
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1994 Black VR4: IHI turbos, HKS VPC & GCC, 550cc
injectors,
> > HKS intercoolers, ported & polished heads,
extrude-honed
> > intake, HKS mega flow filters, HKS 3" exhaust w/5"
tip, ATR
> > high flow cat, gutted pre-cats, custom Y-pipe &
downpipe,
> > Greddy Profec A boost contoller, Greddy turbo timer, hard
IC
> > pipe kit, Eibach 1" lowering springs, Brembo 4 piston
>
> calipers and rotors on front, white faced gauges, Greddy
> > peak
hold boost, oil pressure, and (2) EGT gauges......
> >
> >
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:00:21
+0200
From: "Roger Gerl \(RTEC\)" <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Project page is up
Since my car still sits in the garage and
waits for my scratched fingers,
I've put some pictures onto a project-page.
You can find it under
http://www.rtec.ch ,
the first topic under NEW. Attention, the page is about
335kB
large.
Cheers
__________________
Roger,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
http://www.rtec.ch***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:00:41
-0700
From: "Vineet Singh" <
billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE:Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
This is a really old
"reply" to posts made on the TEAM3S list a couple
of months ago. Recently we
witnessed an engine utterly fail with
almost no explanation. I still think it
failed due to the undampened
underdrive pulley that was on it, but that's my
theory, and to support
it, I found this neat article.
The person that
wrote this article (don't know the name) obviously has
had some direct
experience with more than a few aspects of engine
building, so I assume
he/she knows what they are talking about. Makes
sense to
me!
_______________________________________
The topic is that of
aftermarket crank pulleys. Let me begin by saying
that we have always called
the pulley on the accessory drive end on
the Honda [*DSM/3S as well, almost
identical part] cranks Harmonic
Balancers. People never seemed to understand
what we were talking
about and so the word "pulley" was frequently used to
avoid confusion.
If you look carefully at a Honda* "pulley", you'll find that
it's not
a single piece of metal. Typically, there's a nodular iron or
steel
hub and another "ring" of iron or steel surrounding it containing
the
belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which
is
highly compressed and sandwiched between them.
Why rubber? If you
notice, many four cylinder engines over the years
have used counter rotating
shafts to help make the engine "feel"
smoother. Reciprocating internal
combustion engines and especially
in-line four cylinder versions, all produce
shock pulses, which are
very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every
engine produces a
shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in
the case of
the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses
for
each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a pulse,
it
causes the internal components to do a rapid
acceleration-deceleration
event, which includes the crank assembly,
rods/pistons, and more. When
you consider the mass of all the internal
components and visualize all
these parts stopping and starting during their
reciprocating and
rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes" tend to
make it all
the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for
any
length of time.
The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber
coupling so that, when
the individual "spikes" occur, the inner portion may
move with the
crank, but the rubber connected outer ring's mass helps prevent
the
hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes
or
pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it
tends
to want to stay in motion at the speed that it's traveling and
that's why it
can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and
other internal parts. To
put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a
shock absorber for the engine and
thus prevents the individual pulses
from destroying everything in the
engine.
A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the Pro
Stock
engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to
weigh
less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type"
and
total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic
inch
range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in
high
gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that
were
"exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside
from
cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large
hunks
were also finding their way into the grandstands and there
were
numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA
immediately
mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that point
on.
Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and function properly,
but
the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who
were
tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet "balancers"
immediately
and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to race. All of a
sudden,
racers were getting only 10 passes from their race engines, which
had
previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought
the
cranks were "bad", or the rod's were not as strong as they needed
to
be, but after completely destroying engine after engine, a
few
knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually
was
coming from and several companies that were capable of
making
functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night.
They are
all still in the business to this day and their units are
actually much
better than the factory units of years before, as they
are made from premium
materials and optimized for high rpm
applications. With this short bit of
history finished, I'll begin to
wind it up by stating what we do with the
Honda engines. If the
balancer has more belt grooves than the application
needs, i.e. the
power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to
the pulleys
that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer,
we
leave them intact.
This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced
hub substantially, but
the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and
function correctly.
I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a
blower or
alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually
work
properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would
need
to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that
it
would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of
the
driven parts in short order.
It's especially important to keep the
balancer "as is", if you're
running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in
flywheel mass can also
increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher
level of vibration
will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the
flywheel,it's
absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or
the
harmonic balancer. I realize that there's a lot of hype out
there
where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize
crank
pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to
the
diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in
the
process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge
on
your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator,
power
steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow
the
speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a
large
diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be
designed
to fit "over" the stock balancer.
Perhaps, someone will begin
to make some good quality "functional"
balancers some day, but until they do,
you need to proceed carefully,
as some good looks and minimal power gains can
be off-set by a ruined
engine. I'm sure that there will be some fall out
regarding what I'm
saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone
that we do
not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for
Hondas
and none of what I've said is the least bit politically
motivated.
And yes, any engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can
ruin a
crank driven oil pump, crank, rods, piston tolerances, crank
bearings,
and a whole lot
more.
________________________________________
Whew! that was long, but I
think he has some points!
Vineet Singh
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
http://chi.dsm.org - "ChicagoDSM - Go Fast With
Class!"
http://manualcd.dsm.org - DSM
& 3/S Service manuals on CDROM
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#221
*********************