team3s
Monday, July 24
2000
Volume 01 : Number
211
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:28:01 -0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Valve/cam timing, is that the problem?
It sounds like a fairly
common problem after timing belt changes gone wrong.
They have cams
aligned incorrectly.
This is something you can check easily
yourself.
Remove the timing belt covers, and check to see if the
alignment marks line
up. It may take a couple of tries of starting the
engine and killing it to
get them to where you can see them (may be easier
than using the rotate the
engine with a big wrench method - it's described in
the service manual) If
they line up, front and rear banks, then there
is some other problem -
possibly the timing belt is off at the crank. I
would bet money that you
will find that at least one of them is off, most
likely an exhaust cam if
you get the hollow sound.
It sounds like you
need to bring up this problem with the Manager/owner of
the dealership.
Let him know exactly what has happened, and how easy of a
fix it should
be. Yes they will have to pull the belt again, but it's
easier than
replacing actual parts. Let himknow it is still under warranty,
and if
it is no longer under warranty, let him know that the original
waranty covers
items that surfaced during the warranty period.
- -Cody
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Stephen C. Kempf
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2000 2:00 PM
To: Team 3S
List
Subject: Team3S: Valve/cam timing, is that the problem?
Hi
All,
I'm new to this forum and so far have enjoyed and learned from the
many
messages posted. I own a 1993 Stealth ES that I have had since it was
new.
It's been an absolutely great car and in the past has only required
minor
repairs, so it hasn't been much of a "test" for the abilities of my
local
Dodge dealer's service department.
I've run into some problems
recently following the 60,000 mile service.
Yesterday I posted my problem to
the 3000GT/Stealth International Forum
and it was suggested that I contact
Chrysler Customer Service. Before
doing that I would like to get some
feedback on whether I'm on the right
track about the problem and then
confront the sevice department at my
Dodge dealer one last time before going
the customer service route. I
apologize if this post is a bit lengthly, but
figure that anyone answering
should know the whole story before making a
reply.
Just as background, I taken care of the few problems I've had with
this
car immediately as they occur. I do my own oil and filter changes
every
3000 miles, which has kept the engine running "as new" until recently
as I
approached the 60,000 mile mark. As I approached this mileage, I
started
to get some missing and a decrease in power, but I figured this was
only
normal since that is the recommended mileage for new plugs and, of
course,
a timing belt. Unfortunately, this is where my problems began. I took
the
car into the dealer for this major service and after paying a hefty
bill,
got my car back, again still running "as new" (So far so
good).
Unfortunately, the dealer didn't mention that it would be a good idea
to
install a new water pump and belt tensioner at the same time as the
new
timing belt (I really should have thought of this myself, just too
many
years away from this sort of work I guess), and after a couple of
weeks,
the water pump started leaking and the tensioner "squeaking".
Fortunately
(?), the car was still covered (just barely) by my original 7
year
Chrysler service contract, so I returned it to the dealer for
the
necessary repairs. The new tensioner and water pump were
installed;
however, it took two weeks and it was fairly clear that the
mechanics
didn't enjoy having to work on the car. When they finally finished
the
job, I drove the car home and discovered it no longer ran smoothly,
lacked
power (felt like it was dragging a lead weight), and the exhaust note
had
a "hollow" or "flat" sound and was louder than normal under
acceleration
(though this did not appear to be due to an exhaust leak). Upon
further
inspection, I found that many of the cam and timing cover bolts were
only
finger tight and that there was a dent in the oil pan that appeared to
be
due to the engine being jacked up from underneath. As you might guess,
I
was not a happy camper. After properly tightening all the loose bolts
I
could find (the ones I couldn't get to and check worry me) I returned
the
car to the dealer, but rather than make an issue out of everything,
I
suggested that when the timing belt was reinstalled or retensioned
after
the water pump installation that the mechanic probably didn't get
the
valve/cam timing "spot on". Trusting soul that I am, I also marked the
cam
and belt cover bolts so I would know whether or not they really took
the
covers off to check and see if the valve/cam timing was right. Four
days
later I got the car back again and was told that it was all just
an
ignition timing problem, that they had taken the covers off and
checked
the valve/cam timing and that was OK, and that the car now had plenty
of
power (I guess they figured that telling me this would make it so).
The
drive home revealed that all the problems were still present and the
car
probably would have hard time out accelerating a Neon. When I checked
the
engine after arriving home it was clear that neither the timing belt
nor
cam covers had been removed (the marked bolts were still in exactly
the
same position as when I took the car in).
So, would those of you
with experience agree that the valve/cam timing is
the most probable source
of the engine problems? Also, if anyone has a
suggestion for a good service
shop within a few hundred miles of Auburn,
AL (e.g. Montgomery, Birmingham,
Atlanta) I'd be very interested in
hearing about it. I wish I could take care
of this problem myself. At
least then I'd know things were done right. While
I used to do this sort
of work 25 years ago when I worked as a Citroen
mechanic, I no longer have
all the tools necessary nor the experience on the
newer engines with
timing belts and fuel injection.
Thanks in advance
for any advice or suggestions. If you'd prefer to
contact me "offlist" my
e-mail address is below.
Steve Kempf
kempfsc@auburn.edu***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:11:36
-0400
From: Rick Diogo <
rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Parts for sale
I posted a "for sale" message about a week ago and
here is the current
status on the parts:
All parts are for a 1994
Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo or Vr-4
2 front brake rotors - $50 for the
pair - sold
1 RKE transmitter (factory Mitus part) - $50 -
sold
1 water pump - $100
1 set of brand new turbochargers - $1000 for
the pair
factory service manuals. These are the Chrysler
factory manuals for the
technicians. They are brand new.
And they include both the regular
manual AND the complete electrical
manual. $50 per set. I have 93, 94,
and 95 left. Would be
interested in trading one set for a year 2000 Viper
manual.
All parts
are new, in their original Mitsubishi boxes aside from the rotors
which were
used (but freshly resurfaced).
Please email privately if
interested. All parts are on the shelf ready to
go.
Cheers,
Rick Diogo
94 R/T TT - sold (pearl yellow w/black
leather)
2000 Viper GTS - arriving August 12th (black on black
hides)
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:55:46
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Heartland Park Report (very long!)
-
--=====================_964475746==_
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charset="us-ascii"
Report to the Stealth-Tech list on the BMW club driver
school at Heartland
Park, Topeka, KS
The attached file is a little bitty
.gif, and it shows the track layout at
Heartland Park.
If that
doesn't work, you can also find it at
http://www.hpt.com/trackinfo/tra_trackconfigs.shtml#Just
click on the 2.5 mile layout and it will pop up.
Onward:
ThankyouBradBedell.
ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThan
kyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou
ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou
We
installed Brad's Big Red calipers (from a Porsche Turbo) with Pagid
Black
pads and they did the trick.
For the first time in two years, I got
through an entire race weekend
without changing pads! No fade, no nasty
burnt brake pad smell, no
problems at all.
I ran every single session
for the first time ever, getting about 210 track
miles (9 20 minute sessions,
each about 9 laps x 2.5 miles) .
I looked at the pads plenty, even
pulled the wheels off 3-4 times to check
the pads up close and personal.
Toward the end of the weekend, as pad
material got embedded in the rotors,
they got downright squeaky, noisy,
cranky and emitted every bad brake noise
you can imagine, but they BYGOD
stopped the car!
Thank you Brad! Those
calipers are definitely the answer to our brake
problems.
A new set of
Kumhos worked great, although they wear funny and need a bit
more negative
camber than the Yoko 032R tires did. We'll crank in 3 deg
negative camber
before we go out again.
Now for the report from a race weekend at
Heartland Park in Topeka, Kansas,
where they know me well as the lunatic who
used to do brake jobs every
weekend on the hot asphalt. This gets
pretty long and dreary, since it's a
brain dump. The essential elements
are:
o The brakes work!
o Kumhos work!
o BMWs are no challenge to a
VR4
o There are some VERY fast cars in the upper race groups, and I got
spanked
up there.
Read on at your peril. Those were the highlights.
Everything else is just
dreary.
A LAP OF HEARTLAND PARK
My
instructor, Jeff (slow 'ol farmer dude), laughed as we sat down to play.
He
does not like our cars -- oh, he likes them just fine, he just doesn't
think
they are suitable for open tracking. He runs a fire breathing 351
Mustang
that will just flat eat my lunch.
(I am copying Jeff on this so he can
correct any mistakes on the fine
points of driving the track.)
Here's
a hot lap of Heartland Park in a VR4. We're running the long course
-
-- about 2.5 miles with 16 turns. I am writing this to show you how a
VR4
runs a road course, and to write down my notes before I forget them.
I'll
save this post for the next time I go back. You are welcome to use it
if
you go. It oughta give you an idea of how to approach the track. It
might
help if you print off the map.
Down the front dragstrip
straight we hit anywhere from 100 to 120 mph,
depending on the launch out of
turn 16 and how hard you want to run. A
really good launch, 7200 rpm shift
points, and waiting until the last
possible moment to brake will yield 120 in
my car (stock engine VR4). I
rarely if ever attempted to do so, because it's
so hard on the brakes.
(Note: I can see Jack T easily hitting 130-140 here,
because we are
essentially running a 3/8 mile drag race from a running start.
Jack might
even reach liftoff velocity here.).
Hard, hard braking and
downshift to 2nd for 1, a less-than-90 right (an
acute right, to rallyists),
then an immediate left at 2. Jeff says to treat
Turn 1 as an entry to 2. Just
forget taking turn 1, he says. "What you are
doing is aiming for the turn in
for 2. Get that right, and you'll launch
toward 3 and the carousel." So, we
take a very late apex into 1, cut way
back to the right, and take a late apex
for the left into 2. "We're just
widening this turn as much as possible," he
says. It feels slow when you do
it, because what your head wants to do is
clip the apex at 1 and drift
across the track at an amazing speed, but that's
the slow way because then
you have to slow and come back all the way to the
right.
3/Carousel is a constant radius turn to the left, taken with a
late apex in
4th gear and positioning the car very, very high up in the turn.
You go way
high to avoid the terrible bumps in the middle of the Carousel
where my car
(and many others) "porpoise" through (bouncebouncebounce.)
Although going
high is not the fastest line, it's fast enough and preserves
the suspension.
Toward the end of the carousel turn, we pinch back down
to the inside curb
on the left, touch the track out cone, drift out a little
to the right,
then tuck back to the left in preparation for the entry to 4, a
very fast
sweeping right that opens up.
Stab the brakes to bring the
front down, turn in, then flat all the way
through. We're still in 4th at
about 80 at the apex. Touch the inner curb
at the apex and let the car unwind
to the left ("plenty of track there"
says Jeff, "use it all"). I can't say
how fast it is through there, because
the car is on the turbos and
accelerating like crazy in 4th gear and the
corner station at 5 is coming up
dead ahead and the car is drifting left to
the track out cone, skittering on
the pavement, and I don't want to look
down at the speedo because way too
much is happening at that point. I'm
guessing maybe 110.
The fast
line through many of these turns is to stab the brakes, turn in,
and nail the
throttle way, way before the apex. You accelerate through the
apex and then
let the car unwind to the track out cone. Lesser cars, such
as 911s and
RWD cars, sometimes trail brake right up to the apex, then get
back on the
gas as they clip the apex. With the AWD, we can get on the gas
very early,
and gobble those guys up. Of course, instructors in lesser cars
get power on
very early too, but they are much better drivers and go very
very fast in
spite of their inferior cars.
(Jeff: We 3000-GT owners regard our cars as
mechanical marvels that are
vastly superior to more mundane vehicles like
Mustangs, 911s and M3s)
5 is a 90 deg downhill right. Very, very late
apex. Stab the brakes, down
to 3rd, turn in, power all the way through,
unwind left to the exit, then
come back to the right as you go flat down the
hill to 6. If you do 4
wrong, you have lots of time to ponder the entry to 5
because you're very
slow, and you'll most likely early apex 5. But if you do
4 right, then 5
comes up in a terrible hurry and you have to take a late apex
because you
are going so dang fast that you just barely have time to brake
and
downshift, and you get a late apex whether you want it or not (you
want
it).
(When you are learning 5, the instructor keeps
yelling, "waitwaitwaitwait,
NOW turn in," as he tries to get you wait for the
late apex. But if you get
4 right, all this yelling is
unnecessary).
Brake hard for 6 (a very tight, less than 90 deg, uphill
left.), shift down
to 2nd, late apex, then flat all the way to 8, the esses,
like so: Come out
of 6, upshift to 3rd, flat out, move to the far right, wait
for the late
apex for 7 (a sweeping left), turn in without lifting, clip the
apex cone
on the left and, keeping the throttle nailed, unwind to very outer
edge of
the track on the right. If I get this corner right (once in a great
while),
my car has just enough power through here to get a teeny bit of air
over
the rise and it sets down right next to the edge of the grass. (That is
a
rush! Alas, I can't find the sweet spot for the turn in point every
time).
Then continue flat in 3rd, upshift to 4th and hold it until it's time
to
brake for turn 8 at about 110-115.
Incidently, Heartland Park is
all late apex turns, because one turn always
leads to another. Screw up the
entry to one turn -- say with an early apex
- -- and it takes 3 or 4 turns
before you can get back in the proper rhythm
and get the speed back up. One
turn in particular that you DO NOT want to
early apex is 7, where you are
flat in 3rd with the turbos making all the
horsepower in the world (remember,
that's where Roger always wants us to
take hp readings with our G-force
meters: 3rd at 6,000 rpm). If you early
apex 7, you run out of road, and take
a 90 mph ride through the grass,
about 50 ft from a concrete barrier (you can
see it on the map). Please
don't ask me how I know this so vividly.
But I digress.
Hard on the binders for 8, a 90 left that is the
beginning of the esses.
Stay way right on the straight leading to 8, bang on
the brakes, down to
3rd gear then turn in to the left with a late apex. There
is a round curb
on the inside, and I always tried to bounce the left front
tire off the
curb. It would bounce about 6 in. into the air, and the whole
car would
"hop" and settle down perfectly for the next immediate right. From
that
point to 12, it's flat out, reaching about 110 mph. 9 is a right,
10 is a
sweeping left, 11 is a nonturn and 12 is a very very fast 90 left.
At 12, wait until the last possible moment, hard on the brakes
momentarily
to slow the car, then turn in to the left for a late apex at
about 80 in
4th gear (100+ if you are an instructor), flat to the floor after
the turn
in, clip the curb at the apex, and let the car drift a little to the
right,
then swing back left about 3/4 across the track, stab the brakes, aim
for
the curb inside 13 (a right), and stay flat, still in 4th gear. Here,
we
are essentially straightening out the 12-13-14 series of esses, whilst
the
911s and BMWs are making big sweeping turns, going wide right out of
12,
swinging way back to the left to enter 13 with a late apex, then
late
apexing 14 (a downhill left), drifting way right, then tucking back in
for
15 at the bottom of the hilll -- like a bunch of drunken sailors,
swinging
back and forth across the track, left, right, left, right. .
Instructors,
and folks who have AWD cars (ahem), just slice right across from
12 to 14
in 4th gear, then bang the brakes, downshift to 3rd, and hug the
inner curb
through 14, a downhill left.
This particular tactic will
gain you 50-100 yards on the competition in a
heartbeat. One second you are
way back and the next moment you are on their
butt.
15 is a hard right
at the bottom of the hill. Like 1, this is a setup for a
more critical turn,
16, a tight left which leads onto the main straight.
You want to late apex 15
and, like 1, stay way to the right -- don't drift
out to the left, because
you'll just have to bring it back to right -- then
late apex onto 16 and onto
the front straight, and that's one lap of
Heartland Park in a
VR4.
HOW'D THE VR4 DO?
We lapped virtually everybody in Run Group 3,
with three notable exceptions:
o A 485 hp Pantera that went by me like a
rocket ship. We held our own in
the twisty bits, but he gobbled up real
estate on every straight. Following
him was great fun. Somebody said that,
back home in Texas, that car is
called "Torqzilla."
o A 930 turbo with
bigger injectors and a bigger turbo, and super exhaust
of some kind. He was
making about 425 hp he said, and we had a great dice.
I stayed ahead, but
only barely.
o An older 535i with a supercharger, racing suspension and
all the goodies.
He said he was making about 450 hp. I passed him on Saturday
without even
noticing he was there, but I was on empty tanks. I filled up,
and went out
again for the next session. Now, he was all over me -- the
difference was
between empty tanks and full tanks, plus he had a different
instructor who
showed him a better way around. Again, I could stay ahead, and
it was great
fun running with him.
I don't like getting passed, as
you can tell, and it is my downfall. I do
all my dumb stupid stuff when I
drive with my mirrors. When I am on the
track all by myself I can click off
fast, consistent laps. But when I get a
car in my mirrors -- like if I am
short shifting and trying to cool the
engine down and somebody starts
catching me -- I go nuts. Jeff yelled at me
a lot for that. It's a
personality disorder of mine.
It's interesting the way drivers will seek
out someone with whom they've
had a good dice. In my case, I want to know
what's in that sucker, because
the VR4 gets caught so infrequently (in my run
group). It takes either a
great driver or a high horsepower car to get by
(not because of my driving,
but because the VR4 makes so much horsepower that
it can pull almost
anything down the straights. What a better driver than me
maketh up in the
twisties, the VR4 taketh back on the straights).
On
Sunday afternoon, they merged groups 3 and 4.
Run Group 4 was a new
experience. Half the cars in that group were
instructors, and the other half
were drivers with vast experience. I had a
great dice staying between two
instructors in corvettes, but got blown away
quite badly by an instructor in
a silver 911.
My instructor, Jeff, drove my car during an instructor
track session, and
he had no trouble keeping up with those guys, which tells
me that the car
is very competitive in the right hands. It is clear to me
that I have a
long way to go, but I made great progress this
weekend.
WORKING WITH A GOOD INSTRUCTOR
Kudos to Jeff, my
instructor. I learned more this weekend than at any other
single
event.
Jeff rode with me for several sessions on Saturday, drove my car
around in
an instructor session, took me for a ride in his Mustang, and then
we did a
lead-follow exercise, where he led and I followed, then I led and
he
followed. (That was the greatest, because to the spectators, it looked
like
I was hounding this bellowing, fire-breathing Mustang, and then next lap
I
come around LEADING him!. Little did they know that Jeff pointed me
by and
was only running at about 7/10ths).
I mentioned turn 12 above,
the very high speed turn taken in 4th at about
80. I had no idea this was
possible -- I had been going through there in
3rd -- but when Jeff took the
VR4 through there in 4th gear on his 2nd lap
I saw that it was possible. He
makes it look so easy.
It's one thing to listen to an instructor, but
it's quite another to see it
done.
Jeff says way too many students
just humor him long enough so he'll get out
of the car and let them solo, and
too few actually want to learn something.
Next time you go, use your
instructor to the fullest. They know the way
around, and they can help. Let
him drive your car, because then you'll see
what the car is capable of. Ask
your instructor for a ride in his car, and
try the lead-follow idea. You are
paying for the instruction, so take
advantage of it.
A good instructor
is kinda like a horse trainer that can walk up to a wild
animal and stroke
its nose and whisper sweet nothings and the horse
instinctively knows that
it's in good hands and it settles right down.
Your car will know when it's in
the hands of a master, and it will behave
very well. I've had several
instructors drive my car, and they all go
smoothly and rapidly and much
faster than me, but with no fuss, no muss.
RACE DAMAGE
Not much, but
probably expensive. Whilst driving on my mirrors, I early
apexed turn 2, ran
out of road, and straddled a curb. It smacked the front
air dam and ripped
off the right side brake duct. Now the air dam won't go
down, and the AERO
light stays on. I gotta crawl under there and see what I
did. I also tore up
the valence under the front bumper pretty good.
REALLY HOT LAPS
We ate
ribs on Saturday night, and had a half-slab left over. We wrapped
the ribs in
tinfoil, placed them above the rear turbo heat shield for my
11:35 am
session, and ate hot ribs for lunch. "Turbo Ribs" we called them.
If the
photo turns out, I'll send it along.
More on the technical issues next
time. Still got some problems we gotta
address, but the big one -- the brakes
-- is solved..
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
-
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-
--=====================_964475746==_--
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:31:50
PDT
From: "Ryan Meador" <
captainrye@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Gutted pre-cats/higher oil pressure...
I spent the rainy
Florida weekend in my garage and attempted the task that
many of you warned
me about-- gutting my pre-cats. Just to let ya'll know---
you were right
about the rear one--- what a bitch. But after 5 or so hours
on my back,
sweating, being burnt by drill induced hot metal, wiping the fog
out of my
goggles every 3 minutes, sufficating in my mask and being caked by
dust----I
completed the task.
Question- I previously replaced my oil with 15/50 Mobil 1
because it is so
hot down here in the summer. It has worked perfectly-
giving me descent oil
pressure- even when running extremely hard. I've now
noticed (since gutting
the cats)that my oil pressure is much higher and does
not go down when the
car heats up. Were the pre-cats heating up the oil THAT
much? Do I need to
go back to stock oil weight?
BTW- I'm VERY please
with the quicker spool up time- what a difference...
- -Thanks-
Ryan '93
VR-4
________________________________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
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Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:50:55
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Gutted pre-cats/higher oil pressure...
> Question- I
previously replaced my oil with 15/50 Mobil 1 because it is so
> hot
down here in the summer. It has worked perfectly- giving me descent
oil
> pressure- even when running extremely hard. I've now noticed
(since
gutting
> the cats)that my oil pressure is much higher and does
not go down when the
> car heats up. Were the pre-cats heating up the
oil THAT much? Do I need to
> go back to stock oil
weight?
15/50 Mobil 1 should be fine... The oil pressure sensor and
connection are
very near the front pre-cat, so it is possible that the
connection was
bumped or something during the cat job. Check out the
wiring there to make
sure its all good and the connection is tight onto the
pressure sender.
Should all be near the oil filter if I remember
right.
Cleaning the cats won't affect oil pressure at all, and
temperature wouldn't
be affected to any great degree.
Hope that
helps...
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:34:34
PDT
From: "Ryan Meador" <
captainrye@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Gutted pre-cats/higher oil pressure...
www.extrememotorsports.com sells an
Extreme Technologies stainless downpipe
with two 2 1/2" pipes leading
to one 3" for $350 plus shipping. Don't know
where to buy the straight pipe.
See site for details.
The different size mufflers are part of your active
exhaust system. It
freaked me out to see a pipe coming out of the SIDE of my
main muffler...but
I really like the feature. Too bad I'll probably have to
lose it in my
pursuit of less restriction.
Ryan '93 VR4
<Where is
the best place to pick up a custom made ~3" downpipe and a
<midpipe for
the main cat? (Noise difference and how bad?) Also I was
<under my car
this weekend cleaning the tips and noticed something
<about the rear
mufflers.. What is up with the different sizes? Is
<this the active
exhaust feature? Any feedback is appreciated! :)
Rick-
93' 3000GT
VR4
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Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
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***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#211
*********************