team3s
Wednesday, July 12
2000 Volume 01
: Number
197
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:57:41 -0700
From:
Anissa.Mohler@netapp.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
The following is
not a flame - just an enthusiastic racer ;P
:-----Original
Message-----
:From: George Kuo [
mailto:amkreadgto@yahoo.com]
:Sent:
Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:44 PM
:
:And Geoff, when u made the statement
above.. u should
:ask yourself why u haven't seen one.. (well,
atleast
:outside Jpn.)
:
:/George
Well George and world...
since no one told us it not could be done BEFORE we
started the project we'll
just have to see what can be done.
We are building a Racing VR-4. So
until we are beaten otherwise we will shoot as
high as we can take that car
and let the chips (or pistons for that matter) fall
where they may.
I
personally believe I haven't seen one because no one has really
bothered
TRYING. Jack has a fine drag race vehicle, Merritt does great in the
road
courses. But neither of them has dedicated thier cars to race only.
Neither (to
my knowledge) has completely stripped his car of all extraneous
weight. (I'll
post pics of the stripping project soon). So we don't know WHAT
is possible....
just cause they can't do well in Japan doesn't mean we can't
do well here. We
aren't planing to race against McLaren F-1s here... but we
are planning on
having one heck of alot of fun.
If we believed the
bull about the VR-4 being too heavy to race and too heavy to
autox then Jack
wouldn't have his 10s and we wouldn't have the autox trophies we
have.
Its all for fun anyway, but WE'LL tell you if it "can't be done" AFTER
WE TRY
DOING IT! My motto is, don't say it can't be done until you try it...
in the
mean time have fun watching from the sidelines boys n' girls. We are
gonna have
a blast.
Nissa
95 vr-4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:38:38
-0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <
amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
Nissa,
Good
luck in your project. In no means am I
discouraging you guys of what
you are trying to do.
My point is plain and simple. I have yet to
see a
competitive 3S TT on a national level. PUMA GTO is
probably the best
race-preped and financially backed
3S car.. but.. anyways.. u know the
story..
Maybe one day I'll see your car on
SpeedVision.
/G
- ---
Anissa.Mohler@netapp.com
wrote:
> The following is not a flame - just an enthusiastic
> racer
;P
>
> :-----Original Message-----
> :From: George Kuo [
mailto:amkreadgto@yahoo.com]
>
:Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:44 PM
> :
> :And Geoff, when u made
the statement above.. u
> should
> :ask yourself why u haven't seen
one.. (well,
> atleast
> :outside Jpn.)
> :
>
:/George
>
>
> Well George and world... since no one told us
it not
> could be done BEFORE we
> started the project we'll just
have to see what can
> be done.
>
> We are building a Racing
VR-4. So until we are
> beaten otherwise we will shoot as
> high as
we can take that car and let the chips (or
> pistons for that matter)
fall
> where they may.
>
> I personally believe I haven't
seen one because no
> one has really bothered
> TRYING. Jack has a
fine drag race vehicle, Merritt
> does great in the road
> courses.
But neither of them has dedicated thier
> cars to race only. Neither
(to
> my knowledge) has completely stripped his car of all
>
extraneous weight. (I'll
> post pics of the stripping project soon). So
we
> don't know WHAT is possible....
> just cause they can't do well
in Japan doesn't mean
> we can't do well here. We
> aren't planing
to race against McLaren F-1s here...
> but we are planning on
>
having one heck of alot of fun.
>
> If we believed the bull about
the VR-4 being too
> heavy to race and too heavy to
> autox then
Jack wouldn't have his 10s and we
> wouldn't have the autox trophies
we
> have.
>
> Its all for fun anyway, but WE'LL tell you if
it
> "can't be done" AFTER WE TRY
> DOING IT! My motto is, don't say
it can't be done
> until you try it... in the
> mean time have fun
watching from the sidelines boys
> n' girls. We are gonna have
> a
blast.
>
> Nissa
> 95 vr-4
>
> *** Info:
>
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:54:22
-0400
From: Ron Thompson <
rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: allignment with lowing springs
> The picture you attached
suggests elongating the mounting holes for the
> front suspension to get
more camber adjustment. Does this work? I've had >a look at the front
suspension, and it seems that it is held centered by >the big round hole with
a lip on the suspension tower. Is the big plastic >bit that sits in this not
connected to the suspension?
> The reason I ask is that my Castor is out,
and if it was possible to move
> the top of the suspension around I could
solve this.
Yes it works. The plastic is just a cover to protect the ESC
wires.
What you are doing is the same thing camber plates do. The GC
camber
kit won't work with stock struts because the bolt patterns
are
different. And yes this is for the front suspension if you
elongate
the holes in the strut tower. I've had this done on four cars
without
issue. The rear you must elongate the holes in the yoke of the
control
arms. Spot welding the washer isn't required if you're not racing
or
doing auto-x. If it gives you peace of mind as well.
>Something
is causing really bad wear on the outside front left tyre, and
>even the
really good alignment places havn't been able to sort it yet.
This is not
castor, it is camber. Like looking at the tires from the
front,
/\ they
are leaning in and riding mostly on the outer edge. Your car
has this on one
wheel only. |\ Castor is the angle that the ball
joints are canted from
perpendicular to adjust road feel and steering
response. Castor is adjustable
in our cars but it is not a cam
adjustment, it requires shims for the control
arm mounting points. Get
a better shop. The above will cure
this.
>All you need to do is slot the adjusting hole on the strut
itself.There >are 2 bolts on the strut behind the wheel,one has a cam for
adjustment,
Yes this is where the normal camber adjustment is done. But
you need
more and the cam helps to fine tune the adjustment so I prefer to
make
up the difference at the top and use the standard adjustment for
the
fine tune of the alignment. Besides, it's easier to work up
top.
>I have briefly looked at the rear suspension of a AWD, and I
believe that
>this picture is a correct representation of the Non-AWD
3/S. The AWD car
>uses an entirely different setup in the rear, that
is actually more >similar to the front suspension. I believe.
They are the same except there is no differential or half shafts.
I
have a 96' VR4 which this has been done to. I also had a 93' SL
that
needed more than what the car would offer.
Now, if you are all
finished criticizing this fix, I will go back to
lurking. It requires much
less effort.
Ron
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:59:14
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
> If we believed
the bull about the VR-4 being too heavy to race and too
heavy to
>
autox then Jack wouldn't have his 10s and we wouldn't have the autox
trophies
we
> have.
Yup, the tops of the cupboards in my kitchen wrap all
the way around with
autox trophies at this point. I'd say that a 3/S
can be competitive there
for sure.
> Its all for fun anyway, but
WE'LL tell you if it "can't be done" AFTER WE
TRY
> DOING IT! My motto
is, don't say it can't be done until you try it... in
the
> mean time
have fun watching from the sidelines boys n' girls. We are gonna
have
>
a blast.
And I'm going to enjoy seeing what is* possible, and don't
really care what
"is not" possible.
"Things are only impossible until
they are not."
No way are we ever going to be able to send a man to the
moon and back...
That's crazy!
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:18:44
-0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <
erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Online Mitsubishi Dealer Feedback
Hey Guys,
Since people are
quick to report bad experiences with
vendors/dealers (and understandably so),
I just wanted to relate a good
experience I had recently. This was with
Paul at Norco Mitsubishi, and the
standard "I don't work for Norco, Mitsu, or
any car-related company"
stuff
applies.
<PLUG=www.norcomits.com>
I ordered a bunch of
stuff for my 3000GT a few weeks back, including
a bunch of miscellaneous
bolts, fasteners, and "under $1 parts". I
described the parts I needed,
Paul was able to find most of the parts
numbers, and for the ones he wasn't
sure about, he e-mailed me diagrams with
parts numbers so I could tell him
what I needed. My order arrived within a
reasonable amount of time, and
everything was in order except for a couple
of plenum gaskets that were
missing. It was a big order with lots of little
stuff - it
happens. I e-mailed Paul about the gaskets, and he responded
quickly
and FedExed me the missing gaskets. Good customer service, good
prices,
and a 3/S discount... I love this internet-thingy :-)
</PLUG>
- --Erik
-
------
----------
Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (NA, DOHC,
5-speed) 72,000
mi
Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock
wheels
Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @
0.040"
K&N FIPK (57-1500), Amsoil 10W30 Synthetic, OEM oil
filter
'94 Algae Blue "Ain't No 3000"
Corolla
68,000mi
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:15:27
-0600
From: "Steven Davis" <
s.g.davis@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Corrected time slips
I agree with the thoughts on *not* using
corrected time slips. Even though
I drag race at Bandimere here in
Colorado, (elev.. 5800 ft) and realize I
might be able to cut as much
as
.5 to 1 second at a lower elevation. I still believe you ran what
you ran.
Which in my case is only a 14.31 @ 97.9...... but I am still working
on it
even up here. :)
Steve Davis
1992 VR-4
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:04:04
-0700
From: "Chris Maxwell" <
shmacker@home.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
Well, the Puma GTO
gets beat on because it uses stock turbos. Our stock
turbos just don't
cut it for racing against equally prepared Supra's and
RX-7s. We all
know about how awesome the Supra is with it's stock
components. Now if
they allowed the GTO to have the same sized turbos as
the Supras, then there
would be an equal playing ground.
Chris
92 TT
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: "George Kuo" <
amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
To: <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: why can Supra's get 410
rwhp on pump gas ...
> --- Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
wrote:
>
> >
> > Im not aware of anyone who's gone down
the path of
> > completely stripping,
> > gutting, and
torching out a VR4 to remove every
> > pound of non
> >
load-supporting material to race with.
>
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Go
to a local Jpn video rental place and check out
> some Jpn GT races
videos..
>
> Full-race prep Puma GTOs get their butts kicks
left
> and right...
>
> I love my AWD TT.. love the occational
ass whooping on
> the local road courses.. i would even say I'm
usually
> am the guy who passes other cars on the road
courses..
>
> Bottom line.. no 3S TT in the world is capable
of
> competing for the King of the Hill spot.. or even
> Prince of
the Hill..
>
> All due respect to Jack T and his 10sec TT.. I
know
> he's the king of our little hill... but aren't there
>
Supras, RX7s, 300Zs, etc. that runs like 8's??
>
> You know in
Japan.. the GTO is not even considered a
> sports car... its a grand
touring car?? When ppl there
> think performance.. the GTO wouldn't even
make top 5!!
>
> I hope yal dont all hate me now.. but I'm just
facing
> the reality. Steet car.. yes.. GTO is one of the
best
> cars on the road.. Race machines??? hmmm... not by
> far...
unless someone can't point me to a winning
> GTO..
>
> And
Geoff, when u made the statement above.. u should
> ask yourself why u
haven't seen one.. (well, atleast
> outside Jpn.)
>
>
/George
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
> Do You
Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
anywhere!
>
http://mail.yahoo.com/>
>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:23:35
-0700
From:
jeff.mohler@netapp.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
Not to mention my
15yr old Supra comes with larger injectors than the
VR4/Stealth TT's
do.
Its not uncommon for 400Hp coming out of the old single turbo Supras
on pump gas
either..right at the bleeding edge of the stock injectors.
(440s)
:-----Original Message-----
:From: Chris Maxwell [
mailto:shmacker@home.com]
:Sent: Tuesday,
July 11, 2000 7:04 PM
:To:
team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st:Subject:
Re: Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
:
:
:Well, the
Puma GTO gets beat on because it uses stock turbos.
:Our
stock
:turbos just don't cut it for racing against equally prepared
:Supra's and
:RX-7s. We all know about how awesome the Supra is
with it's stock
:components. Now if they allowed the GTO to have the
same
:sized turbos as
:the Supras, then there would be an equal playing
ground.
:
:Chris
:92 TT
:
:----- Original Message -----
:From:
"George Kuo" <
amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
:To: <
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
:Sent:
Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:44 PM
:Subject: RE: Team3S: why can Supra's get 410
rwhp on pump gas ...
:
:
:> --- Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
wrote:
:>
:> >
:> > Im not aware of anyone who's gone
down the path of
:> > completely stripping,
:> > gutting, and
torching out a VR4 to remove every
:> > pound of non
:> >
load-supporting material to race with.
:>
:> >
:>
----------------------------------------------------
:>
:>
:>
Go to a local Jpn video rental place and check out
:> some Jpn GT races
videos..
:>
:> Full-race prep Puma GTOs get their butts kicks
left
:> and right...
:>
:> I love my AWD TT.. love the
occational ass whooping on
:> the local road courses.. i would even say
I'm usually
:> am the guy who passes other cars on the road
courses..
:>
:> Bottom line.. no 3S TT in the world is capable
of
:> competing for the King of the Hill spot.. or even
:> Prince of
the Hill..
:>
:> All due respect to Jack T and his 10sec TT.. I
know
:> he's the king of our little hill... but aren't there
:>
Supras, RX7s, 300Zs, etc. that runs like 8's??
:>
:> You know in
Japan.. the GTO is not even considered a
:> sports car... its a grand
touring car?? When ppl there
:> think performance.. the GTO wouldn't even
make top 5!!
:>
:> I hope yal dont all hate me now.. but I'm just
facing
:> the reality. Steet car.. yes.. GTO is one of the
best
:> cars on the road.. Race machines??? hmmm... not by
:> far...
unless someone can't point me to a winning
:> GTO..
:>
:> And
Geoff, when u made the statement above.. u should
:> ask yourself why u
haven't seen one.. (well, atleast
:> outside Jpn.)
:>
:>
/George
:>
:>
:>
:>
__________________________________________________
:> Do You
Yahoo!?
:> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
anywhere!
:>
http://mail.yahoo.com/:>
:>
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
:
:
:*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
:
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:26:34
-0700
From:
jeff.mohler@netapp.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
I might add that the
VR4 is just "too darn heavy" to autox too.
Damn..lots of wall space
here full of trophies both regionally and divisionally.
Odd
that.
Of course, we never heard that a second time at most
venues.
Next year we will take EMod 1st and 2nd places...bank on
it.
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:27:35
-0700
From:
jeff.mohler@netapp.comSubject: RE:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
Were not looking for
THAT level of coverage, and we dont have $1M sponsorship
either.
But
we plan to make our presence felt in the SCCA Club Racing
series.
:-----Original Message-----
:From: George Kuo [
mailto:amkreadgto@yahoo.com]
:Sent:
Tuesday, July 11, 2000 4:39 PM
:To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st:Subject:
RE: Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas
...
:
:
:Nissa,
:
:Good luck in your project. In no means
am I
:discouraging you guys of what you are trying to do.
:
:My point
is plain and simple. I have yet to see a
:competitive 3S TT on a
national level. PUMA GTO is
:probably the best race-preped and financially
backed
:3S car.. but.. anyways.. u know the story..
:
:Maybe one day
I'll see your car on SpeedVision.
:
:/G
:
:---
Anissa.Mohler@netapp.com
wrote:
:> The following is not a flame - just an enthusiastic
:>
racer ;P
:>
:> :-----Original Message-----
:> :From: George
Kuo [
mailto:amkreadgto@yahoo.com]
:>
:Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:44 PM
:> :
:> :And Geoff, when u
made the statement above.. u
:> should
:> :ask yourself why u
haven't seen one.. (well,
:> atleast
:> :outside Jpn.)
:>
:
:> :/George
:>
:>
:> Well George and world... since
no one told us it not
:> could be done BEFORE we
:> started the
project we'll just have to see what can
:> be done.
:>
:> We
are building a Racing VR-4. So until we are
:> beaten otherwise we will
shoot as
:> high as we can take that car and let the chips (or
:>
pistons for that matter) fall
:> where they may.
:>
:> I
personally believe I haven't seen one because no
:> one has really
bothered
:> TRYING. Jack has a fine drag race vehicle, Merritt
:>
does great in the road
:> courses. But neither of them has dedicated
thier
:> cars to race only. Neither (to
:> my knowledge) has
completely stripped his car of all
:> extraneous weight. (I'll
:>
post pics of the stripping project soon). So we
:> don't know WHAT is
possible....
:> just cause they can't do well in Japan doesn't
mean
:> we can't do well here. We
:> aren't planing to race against
McLaren F-1s here...
:> but we are planning on
:> having one heck of
alot of fun.
:>
:> If we believed the bull about the VR-4 being
too
:> heavy to race and too heavy to
:> autox then Jack wouldn't
have his 10s and we
:> wouldn't have the autox trophies we
:> have.
:>
:> Its all for fun anyway, but WE'LL tell you if it
:>
"can't be done" AFTER WE TRY
:> DOING IT! My motto is, don't say it can't
be done
:> until you try it... in the
:> mean time have fun watching
from the sidelines boys
:> n' girls. We are gonna have
:> a
blast.
:>
:> Nissa
:> 95 vr-4
:>
:> ***
Info:
:>
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
:
:
:__________________________________________________
:Do You
Yahoo!?
:Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
anywhere!
:http://mail.yahoo.com/
:
:*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
:
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:07:08
-0700
From: "Chris Maxwell" <
shmacker@home.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: check these turbos out....
Acutally,
We have enough money
to finish it. Were just waiting for the parts to come
in. We ordered the
wastegates, but were waiting for more stuff from Japan.
Did you notice by the
way the caliper were using? =) It's from a Porsche
GT2.
Oh yeah.....
Chris made a mistake about the Turbo it's a pair of Greddy
TD06-L2-20G, it's
a special trim on the turbine. for those who car the rear
is a super tight
fit. We had to shave the engine mount to make the
clearence. Plus for the
front we had to replace the fan with an electrical
one. These turbos are the
same on from the Greddy SROC R33 Skyline. With the
same setup the car puts
out a conseravtive 1000hp.... I think were planning
to take it to UPRD
someime by Christmas. Everything is custom done by
ouselves.... downpipe...
header... etc...etc... etc....
David Chen
Neubine970@home.com- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: <
team3s@mail.stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: check these turbos
out....
> > For those that know Jimmy Tsai (used to own
Outrageous Motorsports in
> > Fremont, CA), well, here is what he just
put in his 3kgt. Too bad he
> > doesn't have enough $$ to finish
everything else right now. These are
> > TD06-20G turbos.
Notice the custom work he needed to do to a few
> important
> >
pieces.
>
> Wow, the rear turbo clearance looks pretty tight.
Was he planning on
doing
> solid motor mounts or something? The
front clearance looks at least
> manageable. I hope he can get the
funds to finish it up and see what it
can
> do, looks like an
interesting project.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:00:06
-0700
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Racing Videos (was: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp...)
George Kuo
wrote:
> And I hate to put our car down on the road courses..
>
but they are not that competitive.. have you seen the
> PUMA GTO's on the
Jpn GT races?? They get their butts
> kicked all the time by RX7s, NSXs,
Supras, etc..
> Go to a local Jpn video rental place and check
out
> some Jpn GT races videos..
> Full-race prep Puma GTOs get
their butts kicks left
> and right...
George, I've seen lots of
those videos, and I even
have a lot of them in my video collection.
(Right
now I'm putting together a collection video which
I'll sell on this
list for a modest fee to cover costs).
Actually, the Puma GTO did fairly
well. It even
won a few races. This is why on the 1996
Best
Motoring Video they featured it in the "Battle of
Champions" which
pitted the Puma GTO against
other recent circuit winners: Mine's R33
N1, the
Razo Trampio GTR, Sard Supra and NSX GT-2.
During this special
battle-of-the-best race, the
GTO actually finished ~first~ place, even
though
its best lap time was a few tenths slower than the
others.
Often in these circuit races, you can finish
in a top spot with slower lap
times because of
being slightly slower in the straights while doing
well
in the corners (thus preventing passes)....
Regardless of winning some
races, the Puma GTO
never saw big success (i.e. winning a series)
simply
because Mitsubishi never put a lot of money into the
program.
First of all, they tend to focus more on
rally series and their rally-winning
Lancer (hence the
brand "RalliArt").
Second of all, it is difficult to
compete with a car
like the Skyline which has all the good things the
GTO
has, but just better. Of course, with the Skyline you
are buying
a car which is ~much~ closer to a racecar
(same with a Ferrari F360), but
this doesn't make it
necessarily better from a company's
profit-making
point of view so things are obviously more
complicated.
In any case, much of this is moot since the Puma
GTO has
long since been retired from racing . . .
I also totally agree with Chris
Maxwell's statement
that things would have been quite differnent if
the
GTO had come with larger (Euro-spec) 13G turbos
from the factory with
550 injectors like the Supra
has. Also, the Skyline has Recaro-like
seats and
Brembo brakes. These are things which are easily
upgraded
by bolt-ons and can really help to even
the playing field when competing
against others.
> Bottom line.. no 3S TT in the world is capable
of
> competing for the King of the Hill spot.. or even
> Prince of
the Hill..
I'm not sure what this "King of the Hill" spot
actually
is. Could you fill us in? In America you don't see
a
lot of Japanese car racing except at the drag strip.
In Japan there are many
racing series, but lots of
factors come into play including simply how
much
$$$ a company puts into a particular car. You can see
this in
American car racing series too (like NASCAR).
As far as most of us car
concerned, King of the
Hill means going to local racetracks and
teaching
people a major lesson about what our cars can do.
:)
> I love my car.. but hate to say it.. it's just not
> very
well designed..
Whoa there! You'd better be ready to
seriously
back up that statement. The 3/S is an extremely
well
designed car. There just happen to be some
other cars from Japan which
have somewhat better
designs ~for what they do~ and have more money
behind
them (keep in mind Mitsubishi's recent
financial woes).
> All due
respect to Jack T and his 10sec TT.. I know
> he's the king of our little
hill... but aren't there
> Supras, RX7s, 300Zs, etc. that runs like
8's??
I'm confused, because now we're talking about
drag
racing?? As far as drag racing is concerned,
in my humble opinion a RWD
layout is superior
in order to attain the quickest/fastest times.
The
AWD layout is superior if you want the fastest
times using high
performance street tires (tires
which can be used on a roadcourse, i.e. not
drag
radials).
> You know in Japan.. the GTO is not even considered
a
> sports car... its a grand touring car?? When ppl there
> think
performance.. the GTO wouldn't even make top 5!!
I think you are deeply
misunderstanding the Japan-
ese conception of high performance sports
cars.
They generally don't refer to a car as a "grand touring
car" so
quickly as American magazines do simply
based on the weight and power of the
car. For
example, the weight and power of the GTO is similar
to the
Skyline as well as the Supra (or a Diablo, for
that matter, if taking only
weight into account).
I don't even think they really have any
conception
of what a "grand touring car" is vs. a "sports car."
They
simply know how to appreciate each car for
what it was designed to do, and
how well it does it.
In case you're wondering ...
- -In stock
battles, the NSX Type-Zero has recently
been ruling the circuits when tested
by professional
racecar drivers on videos like Best Motoring.
However, the
average person can't drive the car
as well as these guys can.
- -The
new higher-hp lighter-weight RX7 RZ has been
doing really well on the videos
and it is very popular
on the Japanese circuits among car enthusiasts.
It's
very fast.
- -The Nissan Skyline R34 is just THE car in
Japan.
It rules the circuits and the minds of all Japanese
car
enthusiasts. I just can't say enough good things
about it.
:)
- -The Toyota Supra is no longer featured in any
Japanese car
videos because it is no longer
considered fresh or highly competitive (except
in
the top racing series wereh Toyota still puts money
into it). It
is not very popular anymore amongst the
circuit-goers and its sales are
dropping.
- -The GTO actually did pretty well when it was
featured in
BM videos (no longer), but was never
very popular among consumers (along with
the
NSX) because of its size, price, and lack of racing
history or
Japanese heritage.
I think I've said enough for now, but I hope
maybe
you'll rethink some of your statements and realize
that the issue
isn't so black and white. =) Sorry
I blabbed so much. This
is what happens when you
start going out with a Japanese girl who was
very
familiar with the Japanese car racing (circuit) scene.
=)
Take care,
- --Errin Humphrey
94 VR4 -
15G
Seattle
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:24:33
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Autox content
This is why you dont sit down at an
autox.
http://www.realtv1.com/movies/raw_0004.mov-
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:45:49
-0700
From: "Steve Gula" <
mrelloco@eudoramail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: OT: 874hp/796ft-lbs Supra dyno video
http://www.ec3s.org/videos/supraondyno.mpegSubject
speaks for itself. It's a 3.7M download. It should work, if not I uploaded it in
the wrong mode, and I'll get to do it again (over my 56kbps modem! yay!).
Enjoy!
(oh yea, and that power is at the wheels. no adjustments
made to the actual dyno to make it resemble crank power. I didn't do the dyno,
so don't flame me if you think someone screwed something up)
- ---
-
------------------------------------------------
- --Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula
(
loco3kgt@ec3s.org)
- --1995 Glacier
White Pearl 3000GT
- ------------------
- --East Coast 3000GT/Stealth
-
--http://www.ec3s.org/
-
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:28:00
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: 874hp/796ft-lbs Supra dyno
video
*yawn*
NOS.
All fun and games. He'll be outta
NOS (pressure will be horribly low and
under temp) by turn 3.
-
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|
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|
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:30:06
-0100
From: Jason Barnhart <
phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OT: 874hp/796ft-lbs Supra dyno video
Yeah, those 600 shots are
real popular on Supras I hear... With equal
suspension mods and driving
skill he'll be at turn 3 by the time you realize
it was your turn
too.
Jason
Geoff Mohler wrote:
> *yawn*
>
>
NOS.
>
> All fun and games. He'll be outta NOS (pressure will
be horribly low and
> under temp) by turn 3.
***
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:51:46
PDT
From: "Zentelis none" <
zentelis@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Suspension mods
Aside from the air filter, the first thing I'd
like to do to my car (now
that I've got my head out of the horsepower
clouds) is suspension/brakes.
I'm not a mechanic by any means and some
advice on quality suspension
upgrades/brakes, rotors etc would be greatly
appreciated. My plan is to
start road racing after I go through the driving
schools.
Thanks in advance for your replys!
- -Aaron
'94 R/T
TT
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:07:38
-0100
From: Jason Barnhart <
phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp on pump gas ...
You might try voicing your opinions without being so insulting to those
who
happen to love 1/4 mile racing. Heck, the term ricer could be
offensive to some.
It might not be what I want, but if you (not you) want a
park bench for a spoiler
than you should get one. What the hell is your
point here anyway? So you don't
like 1/4 mile racing, big f&#%(^%
deal, that's your choice. The bottom line is
that the easiest way to
determine the car's acceleration is to run it down the
1/4, there's also
quite a bit more 1/4 mile tracks than road courses I think. I
can just
imagine you trying to tell someone you ran *** seconds at Laguna Seca
and
them arguing that their car was faster because it ran *** seconds at
Summit
Point. Kinda futile, does the term 'apples to oranges' come to
mind? Another
point I think you guys are missing is that maximum HP
will most definitely
influence your course times, whatcha think? I'd
think that a car with more
potential HP, not to mention suspension mods, will
have a higher ceiling. By the
way, I love turns and twisties and I'd
love to road race (care to loan me your
car), even more so than 1/4 mile
racing. Until I can afford the tires, brakes
(shall we mention brake
issues on our cars), and fuel, it's not even an option for
me. Oh yeah,
it's a hell of a lot easier to wreck a car while racing (not covered
by
insurance) on a road coarse than it is running down a straight line, and
anyone
who thinks road racing is easier on a car than 1/4 mile runs has got
to be kidding
themselves. I also can't recall one day that I was bored
while running down the
1/4, and this is coming from someone who thinks he'd
enjoy road racing more. Hmm,
I've never heard you guys mention winning
money while running road courses. Uh, I
bought my car because it's AWD,
why are you trying to explain the advantages to
me? Should I point out
to you that the fastest cars are RWD, even on road
courses? Care to run
against an Indy or F1 car? I also think you're being a
little
optimistic with the with your statement of outperforming cars making
150-200
hp more. Sure, throw a moron behind the seat and you can spank
a
Mclaren. Let's compare equal driving skills, equal mods, and then add
150-200 HP
to the other car, smoke a lot of crack do you? I'd have to
say that someone
driving a RWD car to similar times on a road course (with
similar mods and HP)
probably has more driving skill than you do. Hope
it doesn't hurt your ego too
much, but AWD most definitely makes it EASIER
(you brought up the advantages of
AWD) to run as fast or faster whether it be
1/4 mile or road course. AWD,
unfortunately, has been shown to limit
the potential of most 'all-out' race cars
besides rally types. I'm not
even going to question why you think an 8 second car
is a ricer, I'll just
laugh at that one. Longevity? I wouldn't even call
lasting
through 24hours of LeMans longevity. Dependability,
maybe. I can tell you though
that my car drives to the track, sometimes
hours, races, then drives home. All
without ever changing tires or
brakes. It's also my primary transportation and it
has 116k on
it. I'd like to see what kind of condition your car is after 116k
miles
and beating on it for hours in weekends of racing. It's also
EXTREMELY
satisfying to pee on a Mustang built specifically to run down the
1/4 and have the
driver and spectators scratch their heads wondering how a
3900lb (including
driver), 6 cylinder just walked away from them. I
really don't know what we
(active 1/4 milers) have done to upset you but I
think your statements are
unprovoked and neither accurate or justified.
They are, however, quite insulting
and you're stepping on a lot of
toes. You should come to the DSM shootout and
talk down on 1/4 mile
racing like this, you just might end up with your suspension
mods shoved up
your ass. Personally I think NASCAR is extremely boring and I
JOKINGLY
make fun of it often, but I most certainly respect the skill and training
it
takes to do it, and will always respect someone's choice to do what they
wish.
To each their own, who the f*&^ am I to talk down on something you
enjoy?
pardon the run-on paragraph,
Jason (ricer wannabe)
Barnhart
12.82@109.40jeff.mohler@netapp.com
wrote:
> Until someone takes our
> engine to it's potential
we'll be laughed at by the big Supras, 300s, RX7s and
> Skylines who all
run deep into the single digits and have 10 times the number
> of parts
available to them.
> ---
>
> Personally I dont take offense at
being laughed at by ricer Supra/RX7 owners.
>
> Yes, even with 1000
Hp..I said ricer.
>
> You wanna to play on a real race
course..you'll find that a 1.1b VR4 on larger
> turbos and all the
standard MODs will outperform a LOT of cars with 150-200Hp
>
more.
>
> Why?
>
> because we dont have 2wd traction
control issues.
>
> I had NO problem keeping up with a modified
Ferarri F355 and a 550Hp
> lingenfelter road-race prepared firebird in our
VR4.
>
> Why?
>
> because I could lay down power
immediately thru a turn after the car planted
> itself in
it.
>
> I seriously doubt anyone who builds these massive cars you
speak of (and Ive
> seen to) have any form of longevity in thier power
output.
>
> 1320' racing is one thing, but sure gets
boring.
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#197
*********************
team3s
Wednesday, July 12
2000 Volume 01
: Number
198
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:21:36 EDT
From:
Dskull@aol.comSubject: Team3S: Re:
VR4's in SCCA racing
I am currently a SCCA driver. Used to have a 93 VR4
and had a lot of fun at
non-scca road events. I currently race a 96
Integra GSR in the New England
region. From what I can tell the only class
the VR4 is sanctioned for is the
GT division of the Speedvision World
Challange Series. Keep in mind the min.
weight requirements and I beleive
you cannot run more boost than stock ( I
may be wrong on this). Go to
SCCAPRO.COM to look at eligibility and rules.
Dave Skultety - I
swear I gave him racing room :)
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:55:03
EDT
From:
Dskull@aol.comSubject:
Team3S: Re: VR4 eligibility correction
The VR4 is also eligible for the
Motorola Cup series Grand Sports class.
Minimum weight
3200
Dave Skultety - Race start hints.
1. Remember to
breathe
2. Don't
hit the guy in front of
you.
3. The
grass may be considered part of the
road
4. Don't
forget to shift.
5. Cold tires and turn one make it
interesting.
*** Info:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:14:31
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Suspension mods
At 05:51 AM 7/12/00 PDT, Zentelis none
wrote:
>Aside from the air filter, the first thing I'd like to do to my
car (now
>that I've got my head out of the horsepower clouds) is
suspension/brakes.
>I'm not a mechanic by any means and some advice on
quality suspension
>upgrades/brakes, rotors etc would be greatly
appreciated. My plan is to
>start road racing after I go through the
driving schools.
First of all, you have to realize that the driving
schools and road racing
we talk about here are one and the same, all lumped
into an open track
category. Clubs rent tracks like Road America, and we all
go out and run
laps all weekend.
We are not talking about
professional road racing. Our cars are not
suitable or competitive in all-out
racing, primarily because of the weight,
but also because really good go-fast
racing parts are not available. If you
want to go real racing, you'll need
another car.
That said, here's what I did to my car to improve handling
and braking:
Ground Control adjustable suspension. Includes Eibach
springs and an
adjustable collar so you can raise or lower the car to suit.
($400)
Ground Control camber plates. They allow you to adjust camber and
castor.
Required if you lower the car considerably and then want negative
camber.
($300)
See
www.groundcontrol.comThe new
springs will eventually wear out your stock shocks, so you'll need
a set of
GABs ($800). You can wait, though, til your stock struts wear out.
I'm
working on getting Penske shocks for our cars.
Porterfield cyrogenically
treated front rotors ($120 each). They won't
warp. Not slotted, not drilled.
Beware of any other rotor on the market
(Stillen, PowerSlot, etc.), because
they break at the hub.
See
www.porterfieldbrakes.comBig
Red Porsche calipers from a Porsche Turbo.
Racing pads (take your pick among
Pagid black, Pagid orange, Porterfield R4)
Stainless steel brake lines.
Contact Brad Bedell at
bbedell@austin.rr.com for more details
on the brake
parts.
You will also need to remove the backing plates
and rig cooling air ducts
to your brakes.
For your first driving
school, here's what I recommend:
Run stock suspension and stock tires,
pumped up to 38 psi.
Buy a set of Porterfield R4 brake pads for all four
wheels.
Buy some high performance brake fluid at your local Ford
dealer
Go to your friendly brake shop, and have them:
1. Install the R4
pads on all four wheels (watch what they do and learn --
you will be doing
this trackside)
2. Drain all the stock brake fluid and replace with the Ford
high
performance stuff
3. Bleed all four wheels using the recommended
sequence
If you get through your first driving school with your brakes
intact, we'll
have some more recommendations on what to do next. Be sure to
tell your
driving instructor that your car eats brakes, and have him show you
how to
manage your brakes. They might last all weekend if you are careful.
The
best rule is: Do not brake from more than 100 mph. Coast down to that
speed
before applying brakes.
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
***
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:59:38
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
ADMIN Notice: Racing discussions and flames...
OK, kiddies... You
know the rules. We don't DO flames here on the
Team3S list.
Public discussion is over - take it private, please. Or
to another list
that is comfortable with flames...
As to discussions about various types
of racing, I've done both...
They're all stressful to your car, what with
drag racing trying to fry
your engine in one shot while trying to wrench off
every component in
the drivetrain from its neighbor; road racing is more like
trying to
tear the car apart like pulled pork and then stand it on it's side
and
use the engine as a barbecue... It's not the difference between
apples
and oranges -- it's more like the difference between good sex and
bad
sex... As Woody Allen says, even bad sex is great. So let's
leave it
at "all racing is fun" and discuss their relative merits (no pun,
Rich)
privately.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled "ladies' and
gentlemen's" Team3S
list...
Best,
Forrest
For the
Admin
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:03:19
-0400
From: "Schilberg, Darren" <
DSchilberg@freemarkets.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 1995 VR-4 seats
In my 1995 VR-4 the front seats are definitely
leather. Does anyone know if
the rear seats are leather, suede, or
vinyl? This is the stock condition so
it wasn't upgraded at any
point.
I was wondering since I am applying a leather cleaner and
conditioner and
the conditioner warns to not use on suede.
Feel free
to reply to me or if it is helpful to the list then reply
there.
Thanks.
- --Flash!
dschilberg@freemarkets.com <
mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com>
'95 Black VR-4
http://www.ec3s.org/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi<
http://www.ec3s.org/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi>
(Soon to have my own web page on the ec3s site as well)
***
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:57:20
-0100
From: Jason Barnhart <
phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: AWD dyno result doubters (was: Pump gas)
I'm still searching for
info to back up what I said, but I'd like to preface
anything else I say with
the statement that these are only my opinions and I'm
guilty of doing
something I asked others not too. Perhaps it's a matter of
semantics,
but I included rods and pistons for the very reason that a lot of
mods don't
increase horsepower, they increase efficiency. If you can't
understand
how a rod or piston (of course it's not part of the drivetrain, the
rod
bone's connected to the crank bone) will raise the horsepower figures
by
increasing POWERTRAIN efficiency then perhaps you should turn the dyno
over to
someone else.
Roger Gerl wrote:
> >I think Roger
is skeptical of anything he doesn't understand and I've
> >literally
laughed at my monitor several times seeing some of his
>
>statements. I think he means well and this isn't a personal
attack,
>
> NO, it is !
NO, actually it wasn't! I'd
just like you to think sometimes before you speak
(don't make me come up with
specific examples), and maybe brush up on your
English as it is honestly very
difficult to understand your point sometimes. I
do respect your
knowledge and experience in certain areas, but I have to say
that some of the
most amazingly ridiculous things I've heard here on the list
have come from
you and I have to ask myself 'what the hell is he
thinking?'.
>
>
> >I doubt any of the skeptics here
have ever even talked to AAM
>
> And where's Mike ... almost never
answers emails or says something here
> (yes, he's amember) Can someone
kick his ass to force him to answer all the
> questions
???
>
I agree that Mike should have a stronger internet presence,
but have you ever
stopped to think that he might be busy building some of the
fastest cars on the
list? Oh wait, they can't possibly be that fast
because you know their not even
though you've never seen one of them. I
can also attest to the fact that things
get pretty damn busy at AAM after
12pm as the phone rings off the hook and
almost everyone wants to talk
directly to Mike. Quite frankly though, I'm
getting sick of hearing the
AAM bashing when Mike and a few others have done
much more for us then all
the skeptics grouped together. How about a friggin'
THANK
YOU?
>
> > much less stopped by to see what kind of
work they do. I've stopped by
> > at random several times and
seen 4+ cars that should make over 500hp at
> > the
crank,
>
> 3s cars ???
No, Top Fuel Eliminators. Just
kidding! They'd probably make somewhere around
500hp per cylinder (8
cylinders). Yes, 3Ss and the occasional Supra. Don't
tell me you
think that kind of power output from our cars isn't possible. Next
time
I stop by I'll bring a camera, it's truly impressive the number of
high
horsepower cars they work on. Three of the cars (Mike's, his
Dad's, and Joe's)
are driven daily (last time I heard, Mike's car had 80k
miles) and I'd be
surprised if the least powerful puts down less than 500HP
to the ground. Of
course Mike's Dad drives a Firebird, but anything
making over 700HP (no, I'm not
going to provide scans of the dyno run, or
even details. I don't have them,
you'll just have to trust me.) is
pretty damn impressive, especially when it's a
street car. This car was
not part of my initial statement, just thought you'd
like to know. On
one particular day there was Mike's car, Chuck's car, Joe's
car (not an
employee then) and another car that had 17Gs on it. If I
recall
correctly there was also a heavily modified Supra. This was also
before he moved
to shop that might be considered a mansion in terms of square
feet if it was a
house.
>
>
> > minimum of
15Gs on each car, StealthCT (Chuck Theiss) being one of
> > them.
This is probably the biggest reason that the only cars dyno'd made
> >
impressive numbers, by the way, who in their right friggin' mind would
>
> pay what it costs to dyno a stock car?
>
> I pay every dyno , I
did for dynoing a stock car some years ago ... I THINK
> before you even
could count up to 3000, LOL, just kidding !
I'm not rich enough to throw
money around to tell me my car produces HP very
close to what Mitsubishi
says. Hell, I can't count to 3000 now, but if that's
meant to be a stab
at my age then I'd have to wonder when you bought your
3000GT, is it the '73
model?
>
>
> >Secondly, and we've gone over this before
(unfortunately only speculators
> >pitched in), HP loss is a specific
number, whatever that number is will
> >always be the same regardless
of total HP (until mods are done that reduce
> >HP loss like flywheels,
driveshafts, rims, even rods and pistons).
>
> Well, it seems that
you know the stuff really good, pfffft. LOSS A SPECIFIC
> NUMBER ... I
guess you've never seen a dyno sheet. And you call me not to
> understand
the stuff or not knowing what I'm talking about ? Just think or
> do I
really have to teach you the basically physics. READ MY DAMN DYNO
> SHEETS
AND SEE WHAT THE LOSS LOOKS LIKE: Yes, really ! Our dynos are able
> to
measure the loss as the dyno owner where Bob dynoed his FWD car can
>
explain very good. This is the way to do it and you'd be very, very
>
suprised to see a loss of 98.6 PS on one run and 95 PS on another. And
what
> loss do you think we talk about, huh ? It's the drivetrain when the
clutch
> is pressed. Yes, this is then everything that is not coupled to
the
> flywheel anymore. I hope you don't count the rod to the tranny ...
do you ??
Psssssh might be a more appropriate sound. My mistake for
not being more clear
with my statement. I sincerely apologize, but I
did not mean to include RPMs
into my statement. As simple as I can put
it, I was trying to say that a 350 HP
car losing a peak of 20% of it power
(we'll say that was at 5k RPMs for
arguments sake) through the drivetrain
will not lose a peak of 20% of it's HP
(at 5k RPMs) after being modified to
produce 700 HP if the drivetrain hasn't
been altered at all, not to mention
the fact that most heavily modified cars
have been outfitted with drivetrain
parts that reduce the HP loss. Why would it
lose MORE power? I
would think that heat and slippage (tires, clutch, etc)
would account for
much less loss than the rotating mass of the various
drivetrain
components. This is probably why I'm not as skeptical as some
of
you. I realize that because a car is making 500HP to the ground does
not mean
that it's making 667-704 at the crank. Again, I'll follow up
when I find the
material I'm searching for... 'Rod to tranny', see
above.
>
>
> > A stock car losing 20% of
it's HP through the driveline is NOT going to
> > lose 20% of it's
power after it's making 700 HP, especially because at
> > that point
mods to reduce loss most certainly would have been performed.
>
>
Why the heck do we have to repeat everything 5 times ? There is no
specific
> loss here ! The loss is rpm relevant as well as the temp of the
tires, the
> oil in the tranny the friction level and, and, and. The
higher the
> speed/rpm the higher the resistance and the more the loss.
But it's not
> linear (I THINK. you know the difference).
You'll
have to repeat that, my hearing aid is acting up. I did not mean to
say
that it wasn't RPM relevant, but now that you mention it, isn't the RPM
relevant
loss going to be more affected by RPM than actual HP and therefore
the
percentage of drivetrain loss would decrease as power increases due to
mods?
Hmm, imagine this: A car makes 350HP and measures 25% (87.5HP)
loss through the
drivetrain. Later, the same car is modified to
reverse-the-earth's-rotation
700HP and absolutely no drivetrain mods have
been done. As miraculously as it
sounds the peak HP is at the same RPM
as when the car made 350HP, for argument's
sake of course. You clutch
it on the dyno to measure drivetrain loss and
magically there is no HP
anymore as the engine has been mechanically separated
from the
drivetrain. There is only RPM now, the same RPMs as when he vehicle
was
making 350HP, and the drivetrain is identical so it loses the same
87.5HP
(remember, the engine is now completely separated from the drivetrain
so engine
HP in no way can affect drivetrain loss at this point). Wow,
the vehicle is
only losing 12.5% of it's power through the drivetrain
now. Are you beginning
to see my point? I would have to say that
measuring POWER loss in this way is
probably just a 'good idea' and the best
way to measure POWER loss would be with
the drivetrain mechanically connected
to the engine (through the clutch) where
engine HP IS going to affect POWER
loss due to things like clutch slippage,
tires spinning, etc. Of
course, if it can even be measure like this, ALL parts
in the POWERTRAIN
(includes engine) that produce parasitic loss due to
rotational mass and
friction (this would include the rods and pistons, did
someone mention those
before?) are contributing to the loss of HP. Thank you,
Roger, for
indirectly strengthening my point.
>
>
> AND IT DOES LOOSE
that amount of power !! Just immagine something very
> spectacular
:
>
> There is a car on the dyno and one measures a freaking, crazy
power of
> 435.675hp. Well, let's assume that we don't look for any SAE or
DIN
> correction, ok ? How did he measured the power, huh ? Yes, right,
he
> started the car in the right gear closest to the 1:1 ratio and left
the
> clutch slipping until it hooked up at 1500. Then WOT up through the
rpms
> until power drops. And then ?? Yep, got it, pressing the clutch and
let the
> car roll out. At this time the resistance from the stuff against
the
> electric drums (not the ones "Saga" used in the early years) can
be
> measured and ... here it is... tata: we have the power to the drums
and the
> loss. Now count both together and you are getting the freaking
super mega
> terra .... ponies at the flywheel. Yeeees and this sum is
100% and the loss
> part is between 25-29% on our cars. BUT as said
xy-times, this is only
> valid at one specific rpm, exactly where we
measured peak hp.
Oh my God, 435.675hp is freaking crazy power! I
can't wait till we can generate
that kind of freaking super mega terra
ponies. I never disagreed with any of
this, save for the fact that a
high horsepower car isn't going to lose the same
25-29% as a less modified
car, more specifically, the same car with less mods.
The percentage will go
down as power increases, in general. Why do I have to
repeat myself,
see above.
>
>
> If this was too extreme stuff, just think
about the air-resistance of a
> car. It is very clear that the resistance
increases exponentially compared
> to the speed of a car. This is the same
to the loss of the drivetrain
> including bearings, rubber, rabbit around
the axle and so on. It's not that
> extreme like the air resistance but it
is not linear !
You made a funny. Again, I think the exponential
factors accounting for HP loss
are much smaller than the static
factors.
>
>
> >I hope you also realize that automatics
are less efficient than manuals.
>
> Yes, I THINK know this ... I
got 100 points !!
>
Oh, another funny.
>
> Ok, I
THOUGHT I already wrote something more or less interesting this
> morning
and hope to added some more confusion to this thread with this very
>
sarcastic messi. I'm happy that people still can laught about my posts
and
> as well I do even the engine went south at the dyno yesterday. Or,
maybe it
> wasn't a dyno, maybe it was a portal washer and I just wondered
why I had
> oil on the windscreen afterwards, LOL, grin.
Lost me,
sorry.
>
>
> Now, go ahead, pick my middle paragraph as
well as a dyno sheet and make
> your comments !! Read them, read them and
feel very freeeee to ask..... I
> THINK I can answer the questions,
because I THINK I understand a little,
> very little bit about that dyno
blabla as I got pissed by dyno operators
> about 6 years ago and I had to
learn... I THINK. I THINK you should also
> provide us your analysis of
the sheets and maybe also the comparisions
> between the three cars where
I put the graphs together. Oh, and please
> analyse why Mike's car had the
smaller power curve ! Now, it's up to you to
> provide your part of the
information.
>
You're thinking, that's a start. <===
Supposed to be funny, not an insult!!!
>
> Guys, yes we already
have seen the mods information from CT. Just put all
> the post-dropplets
together and you can see the whole picture and I'm sure
> his car runs
very well. I also only get a printout of the sheets and I have
> to scan
them in so we may have to wait until one owner of one of the many
> dynoed
cars will put them onto a scanner. The peak pwoer values are not
>
compareable but the curve is interesting.
>
> Anyways, can someone
of the magnificant "I had my car on the dyno" guys
> provide me with the
rpm and boost where the car started to retard the
> timing ? Come on, why
I never ever get any answer on this question and no,
> there is no logger
needed for that, really, its pretty simply .... hmmm at
> least I THINK so
? Where is the limit of your cars and how did you foudn
> out (not "I
broke the piston at 1.56 bars") CT, how do you know if the car
> would
have been able to handle one or more pounds of boost to beat the
> other
modifed cars ?
>
> Friends, please store this message... or better,
I do so I can send it
> twice a week, ... just kidding ;-))
> I hope
it was fun again reading my stuff and I made your day.... now I want
>
something to laugh too... can someone send me a cartoon pleeezzze
?
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
>
www.rtec.ch (do not visit it, it has stuff inside
that I don't
> understand... and no advertisings)
>
>
*** Info:
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***
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:20:00
+0200
From: Matthews <
matthews@bnro.de>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Noise Update (was Re: tire rubbing on shock)
Just got the Stealth back
from Mitsu, and the noise appears to be gone. They
installed the new
hub/bearing combo I gave them ($70 from Tallahassee Mitsu),
and since my
original bearing looked pretty beat up, they decided against
installing the
CV joint (which I hope to return, since it was EXPENSIVE).
The dealer
wasn't able to perform the alignment to the specs I provided, but
looking at
the before/after figures it is a big improvement and felt much better
on the
short (rainy) drive home.
We have a group ride in the Alps planned for
Sunday (mostly Vettes, a Boxter, an
RX-7, etc.), so I look forward to testing
it all out then. Thanks to all for
your help - this list is
indispensable!
-Jim
P.S.- The cryo-treated Porterfield rotors
didn't arrive in time for this service
appointment, so they'll go on another
time.
- --
Jim Matthews - Munich, Germany
mailto:matthews@bnro.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://www.bnro.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://www.bnro.de/~matthews/stealth.html
(Europe)
http://members.stealth-3000gt.st/~matthews/stealth.html
(USA)
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable
Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R
(1.0 bar @ 64% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline fluids (trans, xfer,
diff)
Porterfield cryo-treated rotors, RS4 pads, braided lines
Michelin
Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 171 mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4
13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft
torque
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:24:18
+0200
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno Results
Not a dumb question at all ! The as closest to
1:1 ratio from the tranny
should be choosen to have the smallest error.
Therefore it's the 4th gear
(at least in the 1st gen)
The dyno of
course picks up the rpm and speed of the car at the drums. With
this the
ratio is determined and together with the measured loss the
correct
conversion factor is choosen from the dyno software. The error is
between 5
- 15% on known dynos and about 5% on the MAHA we runned on.
>I have a
question (maybe a dumb one). Because the drivetrain acts as
>a torque
multiplier and none of our cars have an overall ratio of 1:1
>(5th in
5-spd is 2.615 and 6th in 6-spd is 2.279; all others are
>higher), is this
factor divided out of the dyno results? And if not,
>how is it accounted
for?
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:05:36
-0600
From: Manoj Prasad <
mprasad@uswest.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 1995 VR-4 seats
Only the parts that you touch on the front seats
are leather. The rest is
vinyl. The back seats are all
vinyl.
Rgds
Moe
"Schilberg, Darren" wrote:
> In my
1995 VR-4 the front seats are definitely leather. Does anyone know
if
> the rear seats are leather, suede, or vinyl? This is the stock
condition so
> it wasn't upgraded at any point.
>
> I was
wondering since I am applying a leather cleaner and conditioner and
> the
conditioner warns to not use on suede.
>
> Feel free to reply to me
or if it is helpful to the list then reply there.
>
Thanks.
>
> --Flash!
>
dschilberg@freemarkets.com <
mailto:dschilberg@pobox.com>
>
>
'95 Black VR-4
>
http://www.ec3s.org/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi>
<
http://www.ec3s.org/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi>
>
>
(Soon to have my own web page on the ec3s site as well)
>
>
*** Info:
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***
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:49:07
-0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Wise <
diranged@south-park.cc>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ADMIN Notice: Racing discussions and flames...
Praise the
lord!
On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Bob Forrest wrote:
> OK,
kiddies... You know the rules. We don't DO flames here on
the
> Team3S list. Public discussion is over - take it private,
please. Or
> to another list that is comfortable with
flames...
>
> As to discussions about various types of racing, I've
done both...
> They're all stressful to your car, what with drag racing
trying to fry
> your engine in one shot while trying to wrench off every
component in
> the drivetrain from its neighbor; road racing is more like
trying to
> tear the car apart like pulled pork and then stand it on it's
side and
> use the engine as a barbecue... It's not the difference
between apples
> and oranges -- it's more like the difference between good
sex and bad
> sex... As Woody Allen says, even bad sex is
great. So let's leave it
> at "all racing is fun" and discuss their
relative merits (no pun, Rich)
> privately.
>
> Now, back to
your regularly scheduled "ladies' and gentlemen's" Team3S
>
list...
>
> Best,
>
> Forrest
> For the
Admin
>
>
>
>
> *** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
>
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:16:19
-0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ADMIN Notice: Racing discussions and flames...
>Praise the
lord!
>On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Bob Forrest wrote:
>> OK,
kiddies... You know the rules. We don't DO flames here on
the
>> Team3S list.
>>
How do we get a list
administrator to stop a flame war?. I don't want to
name any names, but the
flame war over dynos is getting a bit tedious, and
should go off list. But
how do you tell a list administrator to knock it
off? More important, who
dares to tell him?
Not me, dude. I've gotten way too much useful
information out of
Switzerland to risk pissing him off. The guy is a genius
and very helpful.
So it won't be me.
How about one of you other guys
telling him?
Rich/old poop
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:18:45
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: 874hp/796ft-lbs Supra dyno video
So..you think a 20lb NOS
bottle lasts forever?
-
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|
|
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- -------------------------------------------------------------
On
Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Jason Barnhart wrote:
> Yeah, those 600 shots are
real popular on Supras I hear... With equal
> suspension mods and
driving skill he'll be at turn 3 by the time you realize
> it was your
turn too.
>
> Jason
>
> Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> > *yawn*
> >
> > NOS.
> >
> >
All fun and games. He'll be outta NOS (pressure will be horribly low
and
> > under temp) by turn 3.
>
>
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:29:17
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: 874hp/796ft-lbs Supra dyno video
BTW:
I dont know
Bryce..but he is a 'spected member of the MK4 club and list.
Ive got no
problem with big NOS shots..ect..but theyre an entertainment
sport with me,
and hold no threat against my type of racing.
The only way a car like
that could get near me..would be with the bottle
sitting in the grass in the
pits...and then suddenly you have a HP curve
on a monster turbo that doesnt
see much running time except in the
straights.
Which will be that hard
part for me..doing a turbo setup that gives
massive HP, but gives me as MUCH
possible RPM under the curve down low as
possible.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
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|
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|
|
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|
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:57:46
-0700
From: "Steve Gula" <
mrelloco@eudoramail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OT: 874hp/796ft-lbs Supra dyno video
I felt it appropriate to
respond while some of you sit there and make the NOS jokes (hey, anybody can do
it, it isn't cheating. admittedly, it's ass on the track too, unless there's one
really small straightaway... and you're only doing a few laps heh). But my
"point" to posting the video was the fact that we don't have any cars putting
that much power to the ground (NOS or not) and we've got a few people using NOS
(that and some people were talking about the ability of the Supra on the stock
turbo and injectors, which, tho this car isn't remotely stock, shows the
capability of the engine). I'm impressed by that Supra. And _all_ of it's power
isn't from NOS. I've got a few other videos of that Supra having some fun on the
interstate (he goes from 50 to about 80 or 90 in the time it takes me to hit 60
from 50). And the dyno video _does_ have sound (atleast the one on my
computer that I uploaded to ec3s does). You hear the massive turbo spool up.
As far as I'm concerned, that's a Supra that deserves some respect.
Cause he'd walk all over me all day. That, and I want his car
:)
I've also got videos of a Supra doing the 1/4 in 10.75 @ 132, a
McLaren doing a top speed fun (391km/h), YZF R1 doing 180 through a turn. If
anyones interested, I'll upload those tonight.
- ---
-
------------------------------------------------
- --Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula
(
loco3kgt@ec3s.org)
- --1995 Glacier
White Pearl 3000GT
- ------------------
- --East Coast 3000GT/Stealth
-
--http://www.ec3s.org/
-
------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:30:31
-0500
From: "Greg S." <
wizards@mhtc.net>
Subject: Team3S: Mark
your Calendars
Hi all ....
Mark your calendars for a bunch of
firsts ....
The first W3SI (Wisconsin-Iowa-Illinois Region)
Gathering.
The first "Great River Road Run" Gathering.
(and my first
gathering, but that doesn't count as much ;-)
).
Tentative Date: September 16-17 (Sat. -
Sun.)
Location: Southwest Wisconsin (Base of Operations - scenic
Prairie du
Chien, Wis.)
Tentative Events:
Picnic by the River with
Photo ops.
Great River (A.K.A. Mississippi) Road Run (Road Tour)
Cave Tour
(Kickapoo Indian Caverns)
Road Run II with a Ferry Ride across the Muddy
Miss.
and of course lots of socializing, food, admiring of cars, and a
chance
to
play mini-golf, gamble, or whatever.
The website isn't
complete yet, but:
1. Hotels are relatively cheap in the area and I can
recommend a few.
2. If you want to come in early I plan on doing a wash
and clean at my
house before
the event and you're
welcome to come in early to prep your car if
you want.
3. If you're
pretty sure you're going to make it .... or are going to
try to make it,
E-mail me
your name, location, and Year, Make, Model
and Color of car so I
can add it to the list.
More Details to
follow!
Hope to see ya there.
Greg
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:47:27
-0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <
amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: (OT) Racing Videos (was: why can Supra's get 410 rwhp...)
- ---
Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
wrote:
> George, I've seen lots of those videos, and I even
>
have a lot of them in my video collection. (Right
> now I'm putting
together a collection video which
> I'll sell on this list for a modest
fee to cover
> costs).
>
> Actually, the Puma GTO did fairly
well. It even
> won a few races. This is why on the 1996
Best
> Motoring Video they featured it in the "Battle of
>
Champions" which pitted the Puma GTO against
> other recent circuit
winners: Mine's R33 N1, the
> Razo Trampio GTR, Sard Supra and NSX
GT-2.
>
> During this special battle-of-the-best race, the
>
GTO actually finished ~first~ place, even though
> its best lap time was a
few tenths slower than the
> others. Often in these circuit races,
you can
> finish
> in a top spot with slower lap times because
of
> being slightly slower in the straights while doing
> well in
the corners (thus preventing passes)....
>
> Regardless of winning
some races, the Puma GTO
> never saw big success (i.e. winning a series)
simply
> because Mitsubishi never put a lot of money into the
>
program. First of all, they tend to focus more on
> rally series and
their rally-winning Lancer (hence
> the
> brand
"RalliArt").
You sure know your Jpn racing videos.. i used to
be
hooked on them.. and always trying to find videos of
tweaked VR4.. or
even just magazine articles.. and
realized no many tuners big on the GTO~
=(
> Second of all, it is difficult to compete with a
car
> like the Skyline which has all the good things the
>
GTO
> has, but just better. Of course, with the Skyline
>
you
> are buying a car which is ~much~ closer to a racecar
> (same
with a Ferrari F360), but this doesn't make it
> necessarily better from a
company's profit-making
> point of view so things are obviously
more
> complicated.
Hmm.. why didn't the GTO come with a better
goodies?
I mean what we have is good.. but not good enough
compare to
other Jpn super cars.. OK.. engine wise..
u going to tell me its one
the best design?? OK..
tranny wise.. u going to tell me we have a
great
tranny? OK.. AWD wise.. hmm.. hey.. we have the
advantage
since not many others have AWD.. but how is
our AWD compared to others.. like
SKyline, Porche,
LAncer, Subaru, etc?? When Mitsubishi designed the
GTO,
im pretty sure they didnt have racing in mind..
and having said that.. it's
more difficult for us to
turn this nice car into a race car..
> I
also totally agree with Chris Maxwell's statement
> that things would have
been quite differnent if the
> GTO had come with larger (Euro-spec) 13G
turbos
> from the factory with 550 injectors like the Supra
>
has. Also, the Skyline has Recaro-like seats and
> Brembo
brakes.
Hmm.. refer to my statement above...
>
I'm not sure what this "King of the Hill" spot
> actually
>
is. Could you fill us in? In America you don't see
> a lot of
Japanese car racing except at the drag
> strip.
> In Japan there are
many racing series, but lots of
> factors come into play including simply
how much
> $$$ a company puts into a particular car. You can
>
see
> this in American car racing series too (like
>
NASCAR).
In any type of racing series.. OK.. maybe not much in
the
US.. but in Asia.. I never see anyone race a 3S..
can you tell me why?? I see
tons of Supras, Zs, RX7s,
Lancers, Silvias, NSXs, etc... but never a GTO..
> As far as most of us car concerned, King of the
> Hill means
going to local racetracks and teaching
> people a major lesson about what
our cars can do.
> :)
Ok.. if this the level of competition you
are going
for.. please disregard my previous statements. Then im
proud to
say.. I'm the King of Irvine.. I never been
spanked around my city.. I
spanked 1 testarrosa, 1
Lotus V8tt, a few RX7's, a few Supras,...
> > I love my car.. but hate to say it.. it's just
not
> > very well designed..
>
> Whoa there! You'd
better be ready to seriously
> back up that statement. The 3/S is an
extremely
> well designed car. There just happen to be some
>
other cars from Japan which have somewhat better
> designs ~for what they
do~ and have more money
> behind them (keep in mind Mitsubishi's
recent
> financial woes).
It's nicely design for the street..
> I'm confused, because now we're talking about
> drag
racing?? As far as drag racing is concerned,
> in my humble opinion
a RWD layout is superior
> in order to attain the quickest/fastest
times. The
> AWD layout is superior if you want the fastest
>
times using high performance street tires (tires
> which can be used on a
roadcourse, i.e. not drag
> radials).
Don't be confused.. im
talking racing in general..
either road course or 1/4 mile..
> >
You know in Japan.. the GTO is not even considered
> a
> > sports
car... its a grand touring car?? When ppl
> there
> > think
performance.. the GTO wouldn't even make top
> 5!!
>
> I
think you are deeply misunderstanding the Japan-
> ese conception of high
performance sports cars.
> They generally don't refer to a car as a
"grand
> touring
> car" so quickly as American magazines do
simply
> based on the weight and power of the car. For
>
example, the weight and power of the GTO is similar
> to the Skyline as
well as the Supra (or a Diablo,
> for
> that matter, if taking only
weight into account).
>
> I don't even think they really have any
conception
> of what a "grand touring car" is vs. a "sports car."
>
They simply know how to appreciate each car for
> what it was designed to
do, and how well it does it.
Hmm.. Ok.. u have a jpn GF now so u know how
everyone
is Japan thinks... im trying to say is that it's more
of a
high-performance luxury car... like the SC400..
or Linclon MK8.. not a car
that you would want to turn
into a RACE car..
> In case you're
wondering ...
>
> -In stock battles, the NSX Type-Zero has
recently
> been ruling the circuits when tested by professional
>
racecar drivers on videos like Best Motoring.
> However, the average
person can't drive the car
> as well as these guys can.
>
>
-The new higher-hp lighter-weight RX7 RZ has been
> doing really well on
the videos and it is very
> popular
> on the Japanese circuits among
car enthusiasts.
> It's
> very fast.
>
> -The Nissan
Skyline R34 is just THE car in Japan.
> It rules the circuits and the
minds of all Japanese
> car enthusiasts. I just can't say enough
good
> things
> about it. :)
>
> -The Toyota
Supra is no longer featured in any
> Japanese car videos because it is no
longer
> considered fresh or highly competitive (except in
> the top
racing series wereh Toyota still puts money
> into it). It is not
very popular anymore amongst
> the
> circuit-goers and its sales are
dropping.
>
> -The GTO actually did pretty well when it was
>
featured in BM videos (no longer), but was never
> very popular among
consumers (along with the
> NSX) because of its size, price, and lack of
racing
> history or Japanese heritage.
>
> I think I've said
enough for now, but I hope maybe
> you'll rethink some of your statements
and realize
> that the issue isn't so black and white. =)
Sorry
> I blabbed so much. This is what happens when you
>
start going out with a Japanese girl who was very
> familiar with the
Japanese car racing (circuit)
> scene. =)
>
> Take
care,
>
> --Errin Humphrey
> 94 VR4 - 15G
>
Seattle
I know I'll get a lot of flames when started this.
Again..
I'm not saying the 3S TT sux or not a great
car or anything like that... just
this car is not
meant to be a HARDCORE RACE car! Simply put.. if
it
was.. we would see it on the tracks...
OK.. this is my last post on
this issue.. i think i
should keep my mouth shout.. we have a great
car
here.. just too bad it doesnt have any racing
heritage..
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