team3s
Thursday, June 29
2000
Volume 01 : Number
179
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:43:45 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Octane, detonation...(was: Bauerstealth dyno results)
- -----
Original Message ----- From: "Sue Smith" <
saintsue@netzero.net>
> Is it
true that "racing gas" only helps add hp if there is detonation?
Or
>
in that case, any higher octane gasoline? If this is so, I read
on
the
- ----------snip-----------
Roger seems to have answered
your questions pretty well, especially as
pertaining to boost and dyno
results. But I thought I'd add some
comments on octane, detonation,
etc...
Low octane gas burns faster and less completely, and results in
less
power. The higher volatility often results in random pre-ignition,
as
well. As you increase octane, the gas ignites more slowly, but
burns
more completely, and that results in more power. But octane
number
indicates the "average" octane of that batch of gas - it contains
both
lower and higher-octane gases in the same tankful. You can
increase
horsepower by using racing gas..., not only for it's higher octane,
but
because those lower and higher octane components are often filtered
out
by passing them through a catalyst. So racing gas also contains
fewer
random components, which gives a more consistent power stroke.
The rule
is "the lower the octane, the lower the detonation
threshhold". High
octane gas and additives, etc, keep the detonation
threshhold high -
with filtered and high-octane racing gas doing the best job
of reducing
detonation, burning most consistently, and giving the most
power.
BTW... Lots of folks who race with pump gas (read: Porsche
club, etc)
have installed in-line catalyst filters to eliminate these
random
elements. They only pick up one or two HP, but their emissions
clean
up, as do their engines, plugs, etc. I can't find the URL, but I
think
they got better mileage, too. I think it's Fitch or somebody that
make
the catalyst filters...
If you race with an older engine (or one
that has lost compression) and
you get oil lifting at higher rpms, this
allows oil into the system,
causes smoke in the exhaust and detonation of the
engine at its peak
output. The oil mixes with the injected fuel and lowers
the effective
octane rating, which in turn affects the detonation
threshold.
Detonation damages pistons, valves, rings... This problem is
not
uniquely ours - you'll even find racers using two-cycle engine oil
in
the crankcase if they have oil lifting (because that oil is
formulated
to be burned and causes less loss of octane and less detonation) -
it's
specially blended to be compatible with fuel. Our engines are the
same
kind of tight-tolerance, precision engines as Porsches have, but
those
guys recognized the problem and did company tests on what oils are
most
compatible-- their results found Red Line or Valvoline synthetic
oils
reduce detonation when mixed with fuel and burned in the engine;
our
favored Mobil-1 fared less well. Since our engines are a bit
more
temperamental, and don't "like" Valvoline that much, it appears
that
those of us that race might want to consider RedLine instead of
Mobil-1
in racing applications where we're experiencing detonation. It
can't
hurt to
try...
Best,
Forrest
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:57:31
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Latest dyno page up !
I have put together a simple turbo
outlet temperature calculator on
my web site at if anyone is
interested:
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-turbotemp.htmFor
example, with input temp of 80ºF (27ºC) and pressure of 14.5 psi
and
compressor efficiency of 70%, if the output pressure is 14.5 psi
then
temperature of the air leaving the turbo is 247ºF (119ºC). Hot
enough to
easily boil water!
Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
Red 1992 Stealth TT -
modified
-->
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Jannusch" <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: "Team3S" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 8:21 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Latest dyno page up
!
<snip>
A 21C decrease in temp before it even gets into the
motor is huge!
142 degrees at the rear pipe is a massive amount of
heat! I suppose
that's a result of the 9b/13G being too far out of
their efficiency
island. That would explain why the 15G's feel so much
stronger at
the same boost levels - the discharge temps should be much lower
and
therefore the air density higher. I didn't realize that
the
temperature gain would be that high... Wow!
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder
VR4
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:28:39
+0100
From: "Martin" <
martin@star.co.uk>
Subject: Team3S:
VR4?
This is a really stupid question,
But I live in the UK and have a
GTO but my question
is, what is a VR4?
Is this just US spec.
Sorry if
this sounds stupid but I need to know.
Also is there a procedure somewhere on
the web regarding changing the front wheel bearings on a TT.
Thanks in
advance
Regards
Martin Berkley
Technical Support Specialist
Star
Internet
www.star.co.uk
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:28:24
+0200
From: Robby <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Latest dyno page up !
>For example, with input temp of 80ºF
(27ºC) and pressure of 14.5 psi
>and compressor efficiency of 70%, if the
output pressure is 14.5 psi
>then temperature of the air leaving the turbo
is 247ºF (119ºC).
It's even worse because the pressure loss between the
turbo outlet and the
intake plenum is not included (i.e. IC efficiency and
IC piping loss) I
remember an early calculation resulted in an efficiency
for the 9b of only
35% at 1.1 bars while the 13g still had 48% or better. At
1 bars this would
result in 58% efficiency for the 13g in my car.... I
really wonder what the
huge 368s will do ... cooling down the air, hehe
??
THX for the page
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:34:19
+0200
From: Robby <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: VR4?
Martin,
The VR4 is an add-on the car got because GTO
belongs to Pontiac or so. Here
in Europe we only had the 3000GT with nothing
more as only the TwinTurbos
have been imported. The non-turbo cars are SL
and do not carry the VR4 emblem.
About working on any part on our cars
the best suggestion is to get a
manual with (or inofficially only) the CD
from Vineet Singh. Changing the
wheel bearings is a pretty easy job on our
cars. Nothing different than on
others :)
Roger,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:56:39
-0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: VR4?
- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin" <
martin@star.co.uk>
> This is a
really stupid question,
> But I live in the UK and have a GTO but my
question
> is, what is a VR4?
> Is this just US spec.
> Sorry
if this sounds stupid but I need to know.
> Also is there a procedure
somewhere on the web regarding changing the
front wheel bearings on a
TT.
As Roger suggests, get a manual, or at least Vineet's manual on
CD...
Here's the URL on the Team3S website where you may order either,
or
both:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/FAQmanuals.htmBest,
Forrest
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:32:23
EDT
From:
Shivy13@aol.comSubject:
Team3S: Plugs?
I just was wondering if someone would
give me some advice on the issue of
new spark plugs... I hear everyone
talking about the NGK plugs but I also
hear people raving about the new
bosch 4+ Platinum plugs. Any one have any
advice on which I should go
with. I know it is a stupid question I just
don't want to end up with
the wrong thing. Thanks in advance!!
Michael
'94 3000
GT
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:26:17
-0000
From: "Sue Smith" <
saintsue@netzero.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Bauerstealth dyno results
But I still do not understand why the
extra 0.2 bar of boost (with the 9b)
helped at all in the PEAK hp. Are
you saying that because he had 1.2 bar of
boost at low rpm, then he could
hold higher boost at 6000 rpm?
Also, it seems from what you said below
that if pump gas was sufficient (no
detonation) at 6000 rpm that the extra
fuel that is cooling the combustion
chamber is decreasing hp if there was no
problem already. So it would seem
that the hp should go
down? If you run a stock VR4 with racing gas, is the
hp increased or
decreased or about the same as with pump gas? A stock
3000gt SL (same
question)?
>
> >Is it true that "racing gas" only helps add hp if
there is detonation?
>
> >However, where did the hp increase
come from?
>
> From 0.2 bars of more
boost.
>
>
> You are absolutely right about the fix of the
"problem" with racing fuel.
This increases octane and the gas burns better
what finally allows you to
increase boost. Also fuel is increased to extra
cool the combustion chanber
what wastes fuel and power but even more reduces
the danger of detonation.
>
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***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:35:37
-0500
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Bauerstealth dyno results
> But I still do not understand why
the extra 0.2 bar of boost (with the 9b)
> helped at all in the PEAK
hp. Are you saying that because he had 1.2 bar of
> boost at low
rpm, then he could hold higher boost at 6000 rpm?
Where are the dyno
charts you are quoting located? Are they accessible on the
'net?
Having 1.2 bar at lower RPM shouldn't help at the high end, as the
turbo won't be holding that level. Shouldn't make a difference to peak
HP.
> Also, it seems from what you said below that if pump gas was
sufficient (no
> detonation) at 6000 rpm that the extra fuel that is
cooling the combustion
> chamber is decreasing hp if there was no problem
already. So it would seem
> that the hp should go
down?
I see what you are saying, and would generally agree with it except
that you still get some energy out of the additional fuel. Probably not as
much as if you had an "ideal" mixture, however more boost = more power as long
as knock and detonation are under control. If you can point us to the
charts, then we can see better what you mean.
> If you run a
stock VR4 with racing gas, is the hp increased or
> decreased or about the
same as with pump gas?
HP should be similar, and possibly a bit more due
to the higher quality of the burn in the combustion chamber due to higher
quality fuel. At first there might not be much difference, but the ECU
will advance timing gradually to take advantage of the slower burning race fuel,
resulting in more horsepower.
> A stock 3000gt SL (same
question)?
Same answer, but in an SL the gains will be less as there is a
more or less fixed amount of mixture to burn, whereas on a VR4/TT you can
increase the boost to force more mixture into the cylinder to result in more
power.
>Is it true that "racing gas" only helps add hp if there is
detonation?
No, but the differences in horsepower between premium
unleaded fuel and race fuel given the same test conditions, and assuming there
was no cause for the ECU to reduce timing advance on the premium fuel (knock,
detonation, etc), are relatively small. Running race fuel in a 222 HP
stock SL isn't going to make it put out 300hp, but maybe 225-230 HP as a result
of more thorough burn and more timing advance to get slightly higher efficiency
out of the motor. The huge gains of power come from more mixture resuling
from higher boost.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:38:24
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Bauerstealth dyno results
Well, frm what I have
seen:
Racing gas (on any car not designed especially for it) Will
only gain power
by using it if the fuel used before it was not
sufficient. For instance, if
93 oct fuel is sufficient for a car, and a
person is using 89 octane, then
by using race gas, you will gain hp, but not
more than if you had just put
93 octane in. UNLESS you have
modifications that require higher octane gas.
Advanced timing may require
higher octane fuels. Bigger turbos may or may
not require higher octane
fuels. If knock is detected byt the factory ECU,
it will retard timing,
giving you less HP... By using higher octane fuel,
you almost guarantee
that there won't be knock, thus giving you more HP.
The problem is finding
exactly which octane fuel is correct for the car.
- -Cody
PS -
about the boost thing - pretend you are driving down a hill, then going
up a
hill right after the downhill. Even if the car has plenty of power
to
pull the car up the hill by itself, the more momentum you can get when
it's
easier (lower RPM's) the better chances of keeping boost you have when
it's
harder to spin the turbo as fast....
#But I still do not
understand why the extra 0.2 bar of boost (with the 9b)
#helped at all in the
PEAK hp. Are you saying that because he had
#1.2 bar of
#boost at
low rpm, then he could hold higher boost at 6000 rpm?
#
#Also, it seems
from what you said below that if pump gas was sufficient (no
#detonation) at
6000 rpm that the extra fuel that is cooling the combustion
#chamber is
decreasing hp if there was no problem already. So it
#would
seem
#that the hp should go down? If you run a stock VR4 with racing
gas, is the
#hp increased or decreased or about the same as with pump
gas? A stock
#3000gt SL (same question)?
#>
#> >Is it
true that "racing gas" only helps add hp if there is
detonation?
#>
#
#> >However, where did the hp increase come
from?
#>
#> From 0.2 bars of more
boost.
#>#
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 00:20:01
+0200
From: "Robby/SOL" <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Bauerstealth dyno results
> Where are the dyno charts you are
quoting located? Are they accessible on
the 'net?
No, they are
not... dunno why they are hidden. We only got figures of max hp
and
tourque.
> Also, it seems from what you said below that if pump gas
was sufficient
(no
> detonation) at 6000 rpm that the extra fuel that
is cooling the combustion
> chamber is decreasing hp if there was no
problem already. So it would
seem
> that the hp should go
down?
It is unknown if the car had knock or not at 1.2 bars of boost.
Also, the
turbos can hold higher bosst if it was initally higher, BUT, only
if rpm
rises quick. I therefore assume that the dyno test has been made in
3rd gear
as many dyno owners are thinking speeds of 230km/h on the rolls is a
little
bit fast (4th gear). But i n3rd gear rpm is climbing that fast that
boost
doesn't fall of that quick as the timeframe is smaller. On a car that
is
driven through the gears the turbos for sure cannot hold boost longer as
the
discharge temp already got damn high and efficiency degraded.
I
agree with all Matt already said but let me describe how a car will
normally
be dyno tuned :
First, a basis test is done with bosot on stock level to
find out where the
peak hp is. This should be done in a gear that is as close
as possible to a
ratio of 1:1. On 1st gen cars this is 4th. gear. Then the
car will be runned
up again to the rpm where max hp appeard (5660 on my car)
and the dyno then
held the car there with giving more resistance and the
throttle fully down.
This means the car was under contignous full load at
5660 rpm. Then boost
was step by step increased while one could see the new
hp on the screen. At
a specific point, the power dropped as the timing got
retarded due to knock.
Reducing the bosot increased power slowly as the
timing correction doesn't
act that fast and the ECU learns from knock. Also
we then adjusted fuel
delivery to avoid knockand we saw a decrease in power
when we added fuel,
speak made the mixture richer. Knock got smaller and we
the timing more
advanced what brought the power back. Then we could increase
boost again
until knock came up again. This game was done back and forth and
ended in an
extremely overrich condition that didn't really help. In fact I
was more
happy to run leaner then together with putting boost down as the
power
difference was only about 5-6PS.
We don't have any racing fuel
in Switzerland and therefore I cannot do any
test with this. But racing fuel
is able to add a little power and prevents
knock what allows us to increase
boost. Of course this should be done with
an O2 reading of around 0.94V at
WOT and rpm where max hp is found. The
boost can be increased until knock
appears again. The same time the O2
sensor should be watched to see if the
fuel controller should compensate
anything. Anything above 0.96V is too rich
and should be avoided.
Unfortunately, this kind of dyno tuning is only
possible with tools like a
datalogger and a good dyno that can handle such a
long stable measurement of
up to 650PS (we have now a new one close to my
home with the max of 1150PS
AWD ... should be enough for me !!) Also EGT
meters and a simple voltmeter
helps a lot if no logger is available (2nd gen
cars). This is the way I tune
in the ARC fuel controller on 2nd gen cars as
the ARM A/F meter signal can
easily be measured as well as the dyno shows
when the timing gets retarded.
I'm just started to work on a clients car that
will getting the first
upgrade steps before the turbo upgrade. It's an
European 2nd gen car with
13g and we'll see how good the performance will be
soon :)
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:31:19
-0500
From: "Craig Hodges" <
ahodges@houston.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Installing a Greedy BOV questions
I just got a Greedy BOV -S, the
instructions are in Japanese, although I'm
pretty good with pictures and it
doesn't look too tough. I haven't looked at
the stock one on the car yet but,
in all the pictures I have seen on the net
I haven't noticed the 2 hose
fittings before. What does each one do? After I
get it installed how do you
OR do you adjust it? Would you use something
like Form-a-Gaskit on the
gasket? Any help and suggestions would be
appreciated.
CHodges
'99
VR4 Pearl
*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:34:36
-0500
From: "Craig Hodges" <
ahodges@houston.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: BOV Install
By the way, I'm asking about the 2 vacum line
nipples, I figured out what
the BIG ones do. :)
***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:34:54
-0700
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Turbo Swap Guide v1.0
[This was originally sent during the recent
list
"blackout" so I am re-sending it to the list]
Hey all,
I
recently finished a rough first draft of my
Turbo Swap Guide.
Ultimately, the purpose
of this guide is to contain everything a
person
would need to know about the process of
removing/installing
turbochargers on a 3000GT
VR4 or Stealth TT.
It includes sections
on:
- -walkthrough of the procedure
- -tips and tricks
- -necessary
parts list
- -necesssary tools list
- -frequently asked
questions
The walkthrough procedure I have laid out
is much more
comprehensive than that listed
in the service manual (which has some
missing
or questionable steps).
This TSG is still under construction,
and I am
~very~ eager to receive comments, criticisms,
corrections, and
suggestions on it. It will soon
be added to the Team3S webpage.
If you
would like me to email a copy of it to
you, please let me know via personal
email
(
errin@u.washington.edu). It is a
Microsoft
Word .doc file, and the size is 47kb. (I can
send you a
.txt file if you prefer).
So give it a read, and let me know what you
think!
Later,
- --Errin Humphrey
94 VR4 -
15G
Seattle
P.S. Here is my Special Thanks List for this
TSG,
just in case some of the people mentioned
don't request a copy:
John
T. Christian, Barry E. King, Jack Xwing
Tertadian, Mike Mahaffey, Mikael
Akesson,
Jeff Lucius, John Adams, Hank Orsel, Matt
Bompani, and David
Brown
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:33:24
+0200
From: Robby <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: BOV Install
>By the way, I'm asking about the 2 vacum line
nipples, I figured out what
>the BIG ones do. :)
Remove the
stock BPV, install the Greddy and leave the small nipple open.
That's it
(BTW, you must have a custom flange for the BOV to make it fit).
You can
find a pic on the modification of an installed Greddy
BOV.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
www.rtec.ch*** Info:
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 06:32:05
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Installing a Greedy BOV questions
Craig,
Below is a
link to my web page with a picture comparing the GReddy
BOV and GT Pro
adapter to the stock BOV. The reference
plenum-pressure hose connects to the
"top" nipple, not the angled
one. With the adapter, it is a direct
replacement. You may need to
experiment with adjusting "bolt" on top to get
the correct "release
pressure" for your engine. I have heard that the GReddy
nipples may
interfere with the transaxle linkages. I have a '92 so don't
have
first-hand experience in that.
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-BOV1.htmJeff
Lucius, 3SI #476
Red 1992 Stealth TT - modified
-->
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Hodges" <
ahodges@houston.rr.com>
To: "Team
3000GT" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 9:31 PM
Subject: Team3S: Installing a Greedy BOV
questions
I just got a Greedy BOV -S, the instructions are in
Japanese,
although I'm pretty good with pictures and it doesn't look too
tough.
I haven't looked at the stock one on the car yet but, in all
the
pictures I have seen on the net I haven't noticed the 2 hose
fittings
before. What does each one do? After I get it installed how do you
OR
do you adjust it? Would you use something like Form-a-Gaskit on
the
gasket? Any help and suggestions would be
appreciated.
CHodges
'99 VR4
Pearl
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:34:42
EDT
From:
Shivy13@aol.comSubject:
Team3S: Plugs again!
Just one more east question from the new kid:
I was just wondering what was the
best to gap new pugs too on a
non-turbo GT. I have heard a lot of opinions
and I was just curious what you
all had to say about it. Thanks for
all the help!
Michael
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------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#179
*********************