team3s
Saturday, May 27
2000
Volume 01 : Number
150
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 13:16:56 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
-----Original Message-----
From: Curt
Gendron [
SMTP:curt_gendron@hotmail.com]
Sent:
Friday, May 26, 2000 12:26 PM
To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
I think what needs to be understood, is
at high rpms or close to
peek
horsepower the drivetrain loss is a certain
percentage or horsepower
number.
BOTH those numbers change
depending how much horsepower is being
put out
by the
engine.
I think this statement is a little mis-worded.
Drivetrain loss at a
specific DRIVETRAIN rpm is not a percentage, it will be
a specific number.
Also, it will not vary based on input horsepower (which is
why the earlier
sentence isn't acurate). Bottom line is drivetrain loss
is a function of
the drivetrain and the rpm of IT'S specific
components.
My opinion. :-)
John
Basol
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 13:41:15 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
You can probably get this from any dyno guy
(I got the same answer from
two of them). The per cent loss is
15%. On the latest dyno test he
said that they assume 20% for passenger
cars, 15% for high performance
cars, 12% for race-prepped cars.
For the latter, he was referring to
~750HP Winston Cup cars; there were a
bunch of them in his shop at the
time... I questioned how he could be
so sure about my car (he was doing
before and after mods tests) and he showed
me that the 'stated' HP (by
Dodge) matched the "before" dyno HP
*exactly*!
This came up on Team3S a while ago, and one of our vendor
members, Mark
Kibort (eRacing's owner - they produce the eRAM electric
supersharger)
replied to someone who was writing about a huge drivetrain
loss...
(Mark and his brother race Porsches and BMWs..., VERY
successfully...):
"You cannot have a 46% loss in the transmission. This can
be tested on
coast down, but the transmission losses are fairly predicable,
and
around 15-16%. You also have to think about it. IF you have a
300 hp
car and 50% of the energy goes away, where does
it
go???? HEAT!! Ever see how much heat comes out of
an engine? So ,
you know what Im talking about. This
would be a 75000 watt heater!!!!
I've worked with gear trains for the
last 12 years and most spur gear or
helical set ups with single or double
stages are around 85% efficient.
If you put down 200 hp to the ground, the
most it will be is 240 hp on
the
flywheel."
Best,
Forrest
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Friday, May 26, 2000 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: drivetrain
losses
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curt
Gendron [
SMTP:curt_gendron@hotmail.com]
>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 12:26 PM
> To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
>
> I think what needs to
be understood, is at high rpms or close to
> peek
> horsepower the
drivetrain loss is a certain percentage or horsepower
>
number.
> BOTH those numbers change depending how much
horsepower is being
> put out
> by the
engine.
>
>
> I think this statement is a little
mis-worded. Drivetrain loss at a
> specific DRIVETRAIN rpm is not a
percentage, it will be a specific
number.
> Also, it will not vary
based on input horsepower (which is why the
earlier
> sentence isn't
acurate). Bottom line is drivetrain loss is a function
of
> the
drivetrain and the rpm of IT'S specific components.
>
> My
opinion. :-)
>
> John Basol
>
>
>
>
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 15:58:04 -0500
From: "Vineet Singh" <
billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: HP losses, 1g vs stock BOV
HP losses aside, what I am trying to
do here is measure the "change" in "hp"
from one state to
another.
Stock, my car baselined at around 200-210 hp. If the "factory"
said that the
car comes with 300hp, I guess that "99hp" loss thing is pretty
accurate.
From now I will just consider it to be a 28% loss from the
drivetrain, wind,
and rolling resistance.
Ok, that's outta the way,
you can still pretty accurately say that now I
have "xx" amount more hp than
before. That's what I am REALLY after, and
once I get to the track (and find
the CORRECT car weight), figuring out
"real" hp should be a piece of
cake.
I over-inflated the car's weight from the very beginning (all those
rumors
over the years about 3/S's being "tanks" caught up with me since it
felt
soooooo sloooowww stock). Curt said that 4000lbs might be more accurate,
and
I would agree. But in order NOT to screw around with the "weight" I
started
with (which was 4600lbs), even though it was later found to be wrong,
I
cannot just enter the "correct" weight now.
What I mean is this, the
gtech tells me I have 350hp with an entry of
4600lbs. If I go to the real
weight of 4000lbs NOW... I will only register
"~320" hp. And from my previous
mods, this "new" hp # will be 30hp too short
(and you would say I gained no
power from the 1g DSM bov mod). Well, lets
just say I can peel out around
turns like never before... damn car
UNDERsteers though (caught me off
guard).
I think I'm happy with the car where it is right now, even if it
IS only
320hp (WHEEL HP) or so, it feels 100% better than when I bought it,
and it's
still controllable. I also don't want to bust too much up, or do too
much
work in the cluttered/small engine compartment. It's cool that I can
"boast"
.. hey, my engine is putting out 420hp!! :) Wished this engine was in
a DSM
right now... I'd be hitting low 12's and maybe 11's
:)
___
The stock 3/S bov that I pulled out doesn't seem to leak
from the "hole" in
the middle of the diaphram. I stuck a bit of gum in it
(since I'm throwing
it out asap... I wouldn't wish it on any 2g DSM person
:), and blew in it
again. The leaks are most likely occurring right from the
diaphram-to-seat
"seal". It's also MUCH easier to press in by hand than the
all metal 1g DSM
one.
I also feel that the car responds BETTER to
light throttle changes than
before... though it's kinda "abrupt". Before
there was more "lag" before the
car would respond to small changes, now you
feel everything. And that
"pshshhhhhh" noise... gets looks all the time!
Everyone and their brother
wants to race you. I never could figure out why
people wanted that noise..
now I know! :)
PS: the stock 3/S bov
doesn't leak to atmosphere, it LEAKS from the
"pressurized" part of your
turbo system (after the turbos) to the part that
is BEFORE the turbos. I like
that one line that was posted...
"If the turbos go through all the effort
of pressurizing the air, you might
as well make sure it all goes into the
throttle body! :-)"
That's exactly what's inefficient about the
stock 3/S valve.
Curt: I'm also averaging at least 3 runs in EACH case. I
think 3 is enough
to figure out the average... 6-10? you are just having too
much fun :).
Doing a SINGLE run doesn't mean much, you can always have a
fluke
measurement.
Someone please make an "easier to use" gtech
meter... one that can save your
car's weight, and also have a button for EACH
of the things it measures.
Kinda a pita to use... and looks too much like a
radar detector. Talk about
cutting corners to save some profit...
PS:
I have since turned the boost DOWN to 16psi (from 18), and leaned out
the
SAFC... (I have 450cc injectors, so don't try this with stockers). I
feel
that the power is about the same if not more. I wished the TMO logger
showed
o2 for both banks. I wish, I wish, I wi.....
What do you all run for SAFC
settings? also include injector and turbo sizes
if possible... and perhaps
1/4mile times. Thanks!
Vineet Singh <- very little fudge factoring
here! :)
Manuals On CD -
http://manualcd.dsm.orgClub DSM A/T -
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To
Shift!"
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 16:05:22 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
I highly doubt that on a 3S the drivetrain
loss is 15%. I've had a couple
of different transaxles apart and I can
assure you an AWD drivetrain is
going to be far less efficient (three more
axles, two more differentials, a
lot more internal gearing, and a partridge
in a pear tree!). My feeling is
that it is probably more like
27-30%. Isn't that about what was seen on the
AWD Dyno tests in
Europe?
John Basol
'95 RT/TT <-----Highly inefficient transmission
(Especially 1st Gear
Synchro!!!)
:-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Forrest [
SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
Sent:
Friday, May 26, 2000 3:41 PM
To: Basol, John;
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
You can probably get this from any dyno
guy (I got the same answer
from
two of them). The per cent loss is
15%. On the latest dyno test he
said that they assume 20% for passenger
cars, 15% for high
performance
cars, 12% for race-prepped
cars. For the latter, he was referring
to
~750HP Winston Cup cars;
there were a bunch of them in his shop at
the
time... I questioned
how he could be so sure about my car (he was
doing
before and after mods
tests) and he showed me that the 'stated' HP
(by
Dodge) matched the
"before" dyno HP *exactly*!
This came up on Team3S a while ago, and one
of our vendor members,
Mark
Kibort (eRacing's owner - they produce the
eRAM electric
supersharger)
replied to someone who was writing about a
huge drivetrain loss...
(Mark and his brother race Porsches and BMWs...,
VERY
successfully...):
"You cannot have a 46% loss in the transmission.
This can be tested
on
coast down, but the transmission losses are fairly
predicable, and
around 15-16%. You also have to think about it.
IF you have a 300
hp
car and 50% of the energy goes away, where does
it
go???? HEAT!! Ever see how much heat comes out of
an engine?
So ,
you know what Im talking about. This would be
a 75000 watt
heater!!!!
I've worked with gear trains for the last 12
years and most spur
gear or
helical set ups with single or double stages
are around 85%
efficient.
If you put down 200 hp to the ground, the most
it will be is 240 hp
on
the
flywheel."
Best,
Forrest
----- Original Message -----
From: "Basol, John"
<
jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Friday, May 26, 2000 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: drivetrain
losses
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curt
Gendron [
SMTP:curt_gendron@hotmail.com]
>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 12:26 PM
> To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
>
> I think what needs to
be understood, is at high rpms or close to
> peek
> horsepower the
drivetrain loss is a certain percentage or
horsepower
>
number.
> BOTH those numbers change depending how much
horsepower is being
> put out
> by the
engine.
>
>
> I think this statement is a little
mis-worded. Drivetrain loss at
a
> specific DRIVETRAIN rpm is not
a percentage, it will be a specific
number.
> Also, it will not vary
based on input horsepower (which is why the
earlier
> sentence isn't
acurate). Bottom line is drivetrain loss is a
function
of
>
the drivetrain and the rpm of IT'S specific components.
>
> My
opinion. :-)
>
> John Basol
>
>
>
>
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 16:13:44 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
FYI...The percentages I mention here should
be taken as a stock car off the
showroom floor.
John
Basol
Workgroup Platform Services
-----Original
Message-----
From: Basol, John [
SMTP:jbasol@Carlson.com]
Sent:
Friday, May 26, 2000 4:05 PM
To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
I highly doubt that on a 3S the
drivetrain loss is 15%. I've had a
couple
of different transaxles
apart and I can assure you an AWD drivetrain
is
going to be far less
efficient (three more axles, two more
differentials, a
lot more internal
gearing, and a partridge in a pear tree!). My
feeling is
that
it is probably more like 27-30%. Isn't that about what was
seen on
the
AWD Dyno tests in Europe?
John Basol
'95 RT/TT <-----Highly
inefficient transmission (Especially 1st Gear
Synchro!!!)
:-)
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 14:20:26 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
It seems like the easiest thing to do is
just ignore drivetrain losses and
estimating flywheel horsepower until
someone comes up with a complete formula.
It is easy to get good wheel HP
measurements from a dyno, the GTech-Pro, and
probably the Home Dyno
too. Since wheel HP is easily obtainable, and apparently
fairly
accurate to within 1-2%, it serves it's purpose well of being able to
measure
differences in modifications and even comparing HP between cars.
Forget I
mentioned that 99HP thing ;).
Have a great 3-day weekend!
Ken
- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!
Ken Middaugh
(858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 14:37:46 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
- ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
> I highly
doubt that on a 3S the drivetrain loss is 15%. I've had
a
couple
> of different transaxles apart and I can assure you an AWD
drivetrain
is
> going to be far less efficient (three more axles, two
more
differentials, a
> lot more internal gearing, and a partridge in a
pear tree!). My
feeling is
> that it is probably more like
27-30%. Isn't that about what was seen
on the
> AWD Dyno tests in
Europe?
>> John Basol
> '95 RT/TT<-Highly inefficient
trans.(Especially 1st Gear
Synchro!!!):-)
Why don't you call a dyno
shop in your area and ask what figure they use
for performance cars?
According to my main guy, if you show more than a
15% loss, something's out
of whack. That's all they do..., all day
long, is try to find out where
additional losses are coming from. Mine
had just been tuned, and it
showed *exactly* 15%, just like he said it
would... I'm no expert, but
I believe what the experts have to say...
:-)
Maybe it's different for
AWD!?! But 15% PER axle...? Mine is a FWD
Stealth NT Base.
He said that the 'vettes and 5.0's and Supras are all
15%, too... If
you think about it, maybe that's why so many slightly
modded NT's can just
about keep up with stock 3/S turbos!??? But if
Vineet's car is 300HP
that shows 200-210HP at the wheels, and mine is
164HP that shows 150HP at the
wheels with just an FIPK and an eRAM,
doesn't that indicate that something's
not right with his car???
F
> -----Original
Message-----> From: Bob Forrest [
SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
> You can
probably get this from any dyno guy (I got the same answer
> from
>
two of them). The per cent loss is 15%. On the latest dyno test
he
> said that they assume 20% for passenger cars, 15% for high
>
performance
> cars, 12% for race-prepped cars. For the latter,
he was referring
> to
> ~750HP Winston Cup cars; there were a bunch
of them in his shop at
> the
> time... I questioned how he
could be so sure about my car (he was
> doing
> before and after
mods tests) and he showed me that the 'stated' HP
> (by
> Dodge)
matched the "before" dyno HP *exactly*!
>
> This came up on Team3S a
while ago, and one of our vendor members,
> Mark
> Kibort (eRacing's
owner - they produce the eRAM electric
> supersharger)
> replied to
someone who was writing about a huge drivetrain loss...
> (Mark and his
brother race Porsches and BMWs..., VERY
> successfully...):
> "You
cannot have a 46% loss in the transmission. This can be tested
>
on
> coast down, but the transmission losses are fairly predicable,
and
> around 15-16%. You also have to think about it. IF you
have a 300
> hp
> car and 50% of the energy goes away, where does
it
> go???? HEAT!! Ever see how much heat comes
out of an engine?
> So ,
> you know what Im talking
about. This would be a 75000 watt
> heater!!!!
>
I've worked with gear trains for the last 12 years and most spur
> gear
or
> helical set ups with single or double stages are around 85%
>
efficient.
> If you put down 200 hp to the ground, the most it will be is
240 hp
> on
> the flywheel."
>
> Best,
>
>
Forrest
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Basol,
John"
> <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
> To: <
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:16 AM
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: drivetrain
losses
>
>
> >
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Curt Gendron [
SMTP:curt_gendron@hotmail.com]
>
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 12:26 PM
> > To:
team3S@stealth-3000gt.st> >
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
> >
> > I think
what needs to be understood, is at high rpms or close to
> >
peek
> > horsepower the drivetrain loss is a certain percentage
or
> horsepower
> > number.
> > BOTH those
numbers change depending how much horsepower is being
> > put
out
> > by the engine.
> >
> >
> > I think
this statement is a little mis-worded. Drivetrain loss at
>
a
> > specific DRIVETRAIN rpm is not a percentage, it will be a
specific
> number.
> > Also, it will not vary based on input
horsepower (which is why the
> earlier
> > sentence isn't
acurate). Bottom line is drivetrain loss is a
> function
>
of
> > the drivetrain and the rpm of IT'S specific components.
>
>
> > My opinion. :-)
> >
> > John
Basol
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
26 May 2000 15:55:48 -0700
From: John Monnin <
jkmonnin@altavista.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Engine rebuild cost
My engine came in too soon.
I ordered a
rebuilt twin turbo engine for my 91 VR4 under the conditions that when it
finally arrived I would have the choice to accept it or not. at $3295 it
was not cheap but I could not find a better deal.
The engina came in today
and they will only hold the engine till Tuesday.
I have removed the old
engine myself and am in the process of examining the parts to determine if it is
worth rebuilding. I rremoved the rod and crank bearings and
everthing looks good except for the crank bearing 2nd from transmission.
THis bearing has gouges in the center but the edges are fine. The crank
shaft has almost no noticible damage on it.
My questions
are:
1. Will a single crank bearing cause the loud rod knocking
sound or should I be looking in the heads for additional damage?
2.
Has anyone costed new pistons? I have a machine shop that will clean block
overbore it and install and balance new crank and pistons for only $320 if I
supply the parts.
I priced the following components (Tallahasse Mitsu gave me
abetter price on almost every part but I can't find the quote)
Gasket
set: $300
Main Bearing set $21
Thrust washer $16
Rod
bearings
$59
Crank: $682
Oil Pump: $140
Pistons: $ 55 each
$330
Connecting rods $96 x 6 $576
Piston Rings ,set $147
What I am
looking for is prices on aftermarket pistons. It sound like the stock rods
are beefy enough for most mild engine modifications, is that true?
John Monnin 91 VR4
jkmonnin@altavista.com_______________________________________________________________________
Why
pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now!
http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go_______________________________________________________________________
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 19:04:23 -0400
From: Jason Barnhart <
phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
> Why don't you call a dyno shop in your
area and ask what figure they use
> for performance cars? According
to my main guy, if you show more than a
> 15% loss, something's out of
whack. That's all they do..., all day
> long, is try to find out
where additional losses are coming from. Mine
> had just been tuned,
and it showed *exactly* 15%, just like he said it
> would... I'm no
expert, but I believe what the experts have to say...
>
:-)
>
> Maybe it's different for AWD!?! But 15% PER
axle...? Mine is a FWD
> Stealth NT Base. He said that the
'vettes and 5.0's and Supras are all
> 15%, too... If you think
about it, maybe that's why so many slightly
> modded NT's can just about
keep up with stock 3/S turbos!??? But if
> Vineet's car is 300HP
that shows 200-210HP at the wheels, and mine is
> 164HP that shows 150HP
at the wheels with just an FIPK and an eRAM,
> doesn't that indicate that
something's not right with his car???
>
> F
I would expect
that FWD cars would have the least drivetrain loss of any.
For arguments sake
we'll say that all the cars have identical trannys. You
add parts, like
a driveshaft in a RWD, and there's going to be more loss.
Now add two more
axels, a differential, etc, (AWD) and there'll be more
loss. HP losses
are always a specific number (whether it changes at RPM or
not), That
specific number is then used to calculate the % of drivetrain
loss. I
believe that 25-30% drivetrain loss on a stock AWD car is common.
30% of 320
(stock hp) is going to equate to roughly 100 HP. With only HP
mods on
the car, the drivetrain loss will actually go down in % because the
specific
HP loss is never going to change until you start lightening
drivetrain parts
like flywheels, driveshafts, rims, etc, even pistons and
rods. A 600 HP
3S with a factory drivetrain is only going to have a 15%
drivetrain loss (if
in fact a stock 3S loses 30%, or roughly 100hp) because
it will still be a
100 HP loss. Very few of our cars have been dyno'd, but
if you consider
the G-Tech accurate then it usually equates to 100 HP loss
in most cases if
you guestimate the flywheel HP of the car and go by 1/4
mile hp
calculations. A G-Tech told me 315 on a cold night and I've
turned
several 109 mph traps, that should be somewhere around 400 flywheel HP
I'd
think. Weight of the car was 3910, 3715 without me and any gas
(don't go
calculating driver weight) while turning those
traps.
Jason
P.S. Modded N/As hanging with stock turbos?
13.36 at 101.5 with 88k miles
(even on my plugs and wires) with only a
Weapon-R filter for mods ;)
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 16:10:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
Bob: A viscious coupling in the
tranny AND rear-end really chews power,
dont forget we have a PS pump to spin
in the rear as well..and a 55lbs
three piece rubber insulated driveshaft
(cant wait to replace that POS
myself)..and finally an IRS rear end with FOUR
CV joints to spin that you
dont have
either.
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 00:17:27 -0700
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
Matt Jannusch wrote:
> >
If you blow hard enough into the stock air bypass valve "inlet",
> > it
~should~ leak through. That's how an ABV/BOV works.
>
> It
should only open when there is vacuum on the signal line or a reasonably high
pressure differential. A small amount of pressure alone should not open
the valve (certainly not only 2-3 psi!). My Blitz valve doesn't work that
way, nor does the 1G DSM valve, nor does a Greddy valve.
In the case of
the Blitz and the GReddy valve, they have an
adjustable spring, so it will
depend on the spring setting.
> The fact is, the stock BOV leaks at
VERY low pressure differentials and cannot be relied upon to hold the boost
in. Just from the air going through the throttle body, it is probably
going to lose a little bit of pressure, possibly enough to start opening the
valve if it is that sensitive.
Yeah, no one is trying to herald the
design of the stock ABV.
That plastic joke was most likely intended as an
added precaution
by the engineers to limit the boost on our cars. It's
definitely the
first thing that needs to go.
> If the turbos go
through all the effort of pressurizing the air, you might as well make sure it
all goes into the throttle body! :-)
No argument here! :)
That's why I use the Blitz BOV with the
stock ABV ~completely~ taken out of
the system, since running
the Blitz along with the stock ABV (using the
included Blitz pipe kit)
does not allow one to avoid these problems.
-
--Errin
Seattle
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 03:30:55 EDT
From:
LizVong21@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
just get the hks bov and plug the hole going
back into the intakeand u
won't have any leaking problems it seems to
me that the way u do it is way to
much hassle
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 08:04:40 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
> just get the hks bov and plug
the hole going back into the
> intakeand u won't have any leaking
problems it seems to me
> that the way u do it is way to much hassle
It is more hassle to return the air back into the intake, but it is the
more technically proper way to do it. While venting the air into the
atmosphere sounds cool, every time it happens the air/fuel mixture goes rich,
causing a loss of power whether you feel it or not. I wanted to avoid
that, so I looked at valves that can be routed back into the intake
stream.
I also have the Blitz Super-Sound BOV, but the car didn't have as
good of throttle response when coming back on the power as the stock valve or 1G
DSM valve did. Now the power returns immediately, where with the Blitz
there was about a 1/2 second falloff in power... In autocrossing, that can
translate between first place and last place in a competitive class like mine
(A-Prepared).
Anyone want to buy my Blitz valve?
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 09:58:15 EDT
From:
DOWNDRIVEN1@cs.comSubject: Team3S: slow
1/4 mile time
I have a 1992 VR-4. I went to the track yesterday and only
pulled a 14.639
1/4 time at 100.89 mph. I have a K&N FIPK kit, and a
Digital APEXi AVC-R
Boost Controller. I looked after racing at my peak boost
and it was 1.30
kg/cm2 which is like 18.4 psi. I should have had a faster
time. Does any one
know why or have any good setup tips for my boost
controller because I can't
figure out some of it's functions. Also what are
some times that the rest of
the club is running so I can have a basis for
comparison.
thank you very much Alex
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 10:54:30 +0200
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
> In the case of the Blitz and the
GReddy valve, they have an
> adjustable spring, so it will depend on the
spring setting.
I don't know any aftermarket BOV that cannot be adjusted
:-)
> Yeah, no one is trying to herald the design of the stock
ABV.
> That plastic joke was most likely intended as an added
precaution
> by the engineers to limit the boost on our cars. It's
definitely the
> first thing that needs to go.
Only if you have a
weak one ! Remember the hose that goes to the BPV ? It
has pressure in it and
supports the valve to hold. If the spring is weak
then it starts to leak more
of ocurse.
> No argument here! :) That's why I use the Blitz BOV
with the
> stock ABV ~completely~ taken out of the system, since
running
> the Blitz along with the stock ABV (using the included Blitz
pipe kit)
> does not allow one to avoid these problems.
ABV, ABV
??? Where does this term come from ???
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 10:50:53 +0200
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
> just get the hks bov and plug
the hole going back into the intakeand u
> won't have any leaking
problems it seems to me that the way u do it is way
to
> much
hassle
This is the most complicated way to set up the BOV. This because
you release
already metered air to the ambient and the car goes way too rich
at this
moment as it already measured the amount. It will work as all the
others do
bit the common hickup is possible. I have a much more stable
behaviour since
I replaced my HKS with the Greddy that vents back
!
Roger
93'3000GT TT
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 11:57:18 EDT
From:
TTurboAWD@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
slow 1/4 mile time
In a message dated 05/27/2000 9:59:48 AM Eastern
Daylight Time,
DOWNDRIVEN1@cs.com
writes:
<< I have a 1992 VR-4. I went to the track yesterday and
only pulled a 14.639
1/4 time at 100.89 mph. I have a K&N FIPK
kit, and a Digital APEXi AVC-R
Boost Controller. I looked after racing
at my peak boost and it was 1.30
kg/cm2 which is like 18.4 ps
>>
********Alex,
Could be the computer was pulling out a lot of
timing
advance due to
excessive boost for your fuel.
Were
you running race
fuel?
Wayne
'91 Stealth TT
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 10:42:05 -0700
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
Hi Roger,
"R.G."
wrote:
> > In the case of the Blitz and the GReddy valve, they have
an
> > adjustable spring, so it will depend on the spring
setting.
>
> I don't know any aftermarket BOV that cannot be
adjusted :-)
I think the Godzilla isn't adjustable, but maybe it
is. Anyways,
the point is that some people are making judgements of
this or
that BOV being superior or inferior to the stock ABV and/or
the
DSM ABV, apparently without making adjustments to the
BOV spring.
>
> It's definitely the first thing that needs to go.
>
> Only if
you have a weak one ! Remember the hose that goes to the BPV ? It
> has
pressure in it and supports the valve to hold. If the spring is weak
>
then it starts to leak more of ocurse.
According to the recent tests of a
few guys on this list, the
housing the stock ABV/BPV is leaky, not just a
weak spring.
If you leave it connected in your system it will leak
boost,
regardless of whether you have an aftermarket BOV. Maybe
they
all have defective stock units, but why take the chance.
> > the
Blitz along with the stock ABV (using the included Blitz pipe kit)
> >
does not allow one to avoid these problems.
>
> ABV, ABV ??? Where
does this term come from ???
Air Bypass Valve. Same as
BPV.
- --Errin Humphrey
Seattle
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 10:50:55 -0700
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
"R.G." wrote:
> This is the
most complicated way to set up the BOV. This because you release
> already
metered air to the ambient and the car goes way too rich at this
> moment
as it already measured the amount. It will work as all the others do
> bit
the common hickup is possible. I have a much more stable behaviour since
>
I replaced my HKS with the Greddy that vents back !
Does the GReddy BOV
piping kit completely eliminate
the stock ABV/BPV from the system? In
the case of
the Blitz BOV piping kit, it does not completely eliminate
the
stock unit from the system. So it defeats the purpose
of upgrading to a
BOV, insofar as one is concerned about
leaking boost.
Some people,
including myself and Barry King, don't
experience any problems with the
temporary rich condition.
It has been unnoticeable to me, with the way I have
my
Blitz BOV installed and adjusted.
Our cars run fully rich all the
time anyway just cruising down
the street (thanks to closed loop mode), so I
don't see a major
issue. :)
- --Errin
Humphrey
Seattle
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 19:51:58 +0200
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: slow 1/4 mile time
> I have a 1992 VR-4. I went to the track
yesterday and only pulled a 14.639
> 1/4 time at 100.89 mph. I have a
K&N FIPK kit, and a Digital APEXi AVC-R
> Boost Controller. I looked
after racing at my peak boost and it was 1.30
> kg/cm2 which is like 18.4
psi.
If you din't run race gas I do not feel good for you. You probably
tested
this setup on the road already and I just can guess that you hit that
amount
of boost several times. I just wonder why your car didn't fell into
fuel cut
???
Our cars cannot withstand 1.3 bars of boost, even with
race gas, the
temperature at the intake is too high detonation kills your
pistons/rings. 1
bar is enough for steady boost with light short overboosts.
At this level
you should be able to run 13.2 or so.
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 27 May 2000 19:46:38 +0200
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses (!!!!)
Wow, I had a lot read on this topic
:)
First, let me repaeat what I told half a year (or is it a year now)
ago.
"You cannot give the drivetrain a specific loss !"
Any
percentage relative to the flywheel hp given is ONLY VALID AT ONE
SPECIFIC
RPM !
Therefore if one says the loss is 10% this means for example at
6000rpm a
car pulls out 300hp at the flywheel and the loss is 30hp giving
270hp to the
wheels. Well, there is a lot missing like the strange coversion
of SAE hp or
DIN PS. As an example, the dyno results of a Celica presented
later show the
old (but very positive) SAE figures. Every dyno is able to set
it to this
conversion factors and the temperature and barometric pressure are
the
factors that are changing this. Usually, the US-Dynos are still writing
SAE
figures onto the sheet because the numbers are looking much better
;-)
For measuring the loss, the car is driven up until the power to the
wheels
goes down and then the clutch pressed. Then the rolling resistance to
the
drums is measured by the motors braking resistance. This results in
the
green curve showed on our dynos. Three cars have been tested and mine
had
winter tires on it (the ones I almost glew up on the dyno).
Jims
car had 79.5kW loss @ 5680
Mikes car had 78kW loss @ 6230
My car had
73.5kW loss @ 5450 (winter tires, 4th gear)
My car had 83.5kW loss @ 5660
(summer tires, 4th gear)
My car had 78.0kW loss @ 5660 (summer tires, 15
minutes later !)
You note that my figures changed by 10kW with the summer
tires/rims.
Interesting as these tires are softer and are sticking much more
to the
ground than the winter rubber but the wheels are heavier. The hotter
the
wheels got the less loss they produced ... worth another discussion,
hehe.
The latest tests of AWD Audis and Porsches showed a loss off 50kW -
70kW at
their top power output too what tells me that they are somewhat
better
engineered in the drivetrain. The loss-curve shows about the
same
characteristic as ours. This also represents about 20 - 30% of loss
compared
to the car. Interestingly the small 1.8l turbo Audi A3 and A4 turbo
AWD had
a loss of more than 35% at the peak hp around 5800rpm and they were
not
happy. One car with larger wheels and wider tires had 15-20kW more loss
than
the friends car with the smaller and thinner tires. Says all to me ...
size
does matter and is not always good !
I say it again, the
percentage and the amount of loss is not valid for the
whole rpm band as the
loss isn't linear as well as the engines power output
is not. Therefore the
figures showed above represent a range in the specific
rpm where our cars
produce the max power.
The G-Tech Pro is nice to have and to gamble
around with it. Interestingly I
used it during some datalogs on the same
street same conditions, etc. and I
got 15hp more at the other run with hot
intercoolers and even timing a
little bit more retarded. This is stupid as I
definitely had less power and
boost was the same. But the thing measures the
G-load and as our cars sit
back when accellerating the value is soemwhat off.
The tests must be done
with hard and stiff setup and then should still be
considered somewhat off.
Nobody knows if the showed hp already is a converted
number or anything
base.
Now we also had a Supra TT Automatic on the
same dyno the same day and guess
what, loss was about 40kW - 50kW. A 6 speed
manual had 35kW - 42kW loss at
its peak level. Compared to the 427PS DIN he
put out, this represents 15-17%
loss to the hp on the wheels. Now this sounds
like what we always hear and
even my Z28 had a loss of 16% at 5200 rpm with
305PS at the flywheel. The
AWD cars are a different world for sure and the
loss is really bigger. 100hp
loss, sure, and there is absolutely nothing
wrong to this. The Supra also
had a loss of around 66-70hp (SAE ???) with his
RWD drivetrain and
Automatic. And calling a dyno helps for sure, but then we
have two remove
something on our babies as we have four wheels to be driven
and not only
two.
To come to an end, I give nothing to the G-Tech Pro
as his numbers vary way
too much on my car. Trap speed and time recalculated
to hp is a poor method
as traction and wind are not calculated. Also the loss
between the shifts,
lag and what more is not included. I remember that this
method works on
automatics a bit better :) And formula ... no forget it,
there is no formula
available. But it is possible if you consider the
variables too : tires,
wheels, wideness, oil in tranny, choosen gear,
temperature, humidity .......
I'd call this mission impossible.
The
dyno test is the only one that can give some loss-figures that are
accurate
enough. But the power measured on the dyno is also a problem as
the
intercoolers are not as good colled as they are on the street. I
learned
this at the last dyno session where I lost power and tourque on a run
15
minutes after the first one. Temp at the intake increased from 26°C to
33°C
as well as the water temp of the WIS went up and I saw knock with a
little
retard. At the same boost on the street under full load at 6000 in 3rd
I saw
low knock and more advanced timing (no retard at all)
The last
thing : I made a test with the G-Tech pro on a friends 3000GT and
it gave out
240hp. We then isntalled the FIPK, drove the car around and I
felt a little
better performance in upper end. Well, the G-Tech really
showed a change of 8
hp ..... but less. Therefore, keep the stock airbox, it
seems that you loose
8hp with the FIPK, LOL.
Roger
93'3000GT TT (last weeks dyno showed
443.7hp SAE at 16.2 psi of boost with
WIS, ARC2,
720cc)
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
End
of team3s V1 #150
*********************