team3s
Friday, May 26
2000
Volume 01 : Number
149
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 00:05:05 -0500
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Where to buy flex section?
Len,
I think it's a good idea to
put in a flex section instead of using a hard
pipe. It will be much easier
to line up the connection to the borla, and
will absorb vibrations and shock
caused by the motor, which results in
fewer exhaust leaks. Make sure you
have enough room for one on your
downpipe, you will have to cut the flange
off and weld the flex section in.
the ones Iv'e used are about 12" long and
come in various pipe diameters.
These are very high quality, stainless. Iv'e
used 4 of them and all but one
are still in commision. The name of the place
is Jagco, out of Kentucky.
They might have a web site, if not let me know
and i'll dig up some
paperwork.
Wayne
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 03:39:27 -0400
From: "John T. Christian" <jczoom@geocities.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Bubbles
Hi all,
My TT boiled over at Putnam
roadcourse.
Now I have bubbles coming up thru the anitfreeze when the
filler cap
near the plennum is removed.
I have a blown head gasket,
right??
No leaks in hoses,etc. New thermostat, had radiator tested
and cleaned.
There are more details, but that's the short
version.
Not of great cheer,
John
- --
JCZoooM 93 TT
12.46@109Mph Now with Porsche brakes & Supra
rotors
Email---> JCZooM@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 09:23:12 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Setting up cylinder heads - seat load
> My twin turbo heads
are currently being ported and polished. I decided
> to replace all
the springs and exhaust valves with new ones (factory)
> even though there
was only 50,000 miles on them (insurance policy).
Well, if the insurance
pays for the stuff, why not :)
> - raising redline from 7,000 to
7,500rpm
No problem
> - boost pressures up to 25psi
With
good pistons, no problem
> - exhaust back pressure has been reduced
with 3" downpipe and exhaust
> with no cats
Well, this keeps the
turbos runnign but doesn't count to the heads.
> I figure with higher
boost and higher revs I'll want to increase intake
> valve seat load to
~75 lbs and a little less for the exhaust, maybe 70
> lbs (since
backpressure hasn't increased from stock).
But, your turbos are
responsible for the backpressure to the exhaust valves
! If you run higher
boost, the pressure in the exhaust manifold rises and
the more difference of
before and after the turbine spools up the turbos
more to produce the higher
boost. Therefore backpressure will increase for
sure when you increase
boost.
> Shims required for these seat loads are still far from
binding the
> spring at full lift with our mild cams.
Hmm, I doubt
that the load is a problem. You'll loose more power due to the
fact that the
cam needs more belt-power to open the valves. I discuaased
this with the
mechanic who did my heads and we came to the conclusion that
to change the
valve guides is more beneficial than any other work on the
valvetrain. This
because the outlet guides are somewhat too short for
increased power and
start to wiggle, especially when more backpressure
occurs. This results in a
higher tolerance (up to 0.15 mm !!!) Mitsu gives
for the ex valves in their
guides. As porting the outlet channels is the
most important thing on our
cars, the valve guide because definitely too
short and they should be
replaced with custom ones with a low tolerance.
Mine are now close to 0.08mm
and oil should not find its way through them :)
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 09:26:57 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
Just a side-note :
The stock BOV
MUST leak ! On the top it has a small hole where it leaks
through down to the
inlet. This is for the better behaviour at light
throttle lifts. The
behaviour with an aftermarket or 1st gen DSM BOV becomes
annyoing when in
cruising mode (as an example) as the boost is dropped off
too quick. Of
course the BOV must then be adjusted but it takes some time
until a good
compromise has been found.
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 06:36:21 -0400
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Setting up cylinder heads - seat load
> > My twin turbo
heads are currently being ported and polished. I decided
> > to
replace all the springs and exhaust valves with new ones (factory)
> >
even though there was only 50,000 miles on them (insurance
policy).
>
> Well, if the insurance pays for the stuff, why not
:)
Not that my insurance company is actually going to pay for them, it's
just my
own insurance policy that I don't fatigue a spring or drop a
valve. If previous
owner ran the engine too hot, exhaust valves can
overage and fail etc.
> > - boost pressures up to
25psi
>
> With good pistons, no problem
Ross pistons are now
in my possession
> > I figure with higher boost and higher revs
I'll want to increase intake
> > valve seat load to ~75 lbs and a
little less for the exhaust, maybe 70
> > lbs (since backpressure
hasn't increased from stock).
>
> But, your turbos are responsible
for the backpressure to the exhaust valves
> ! If you run higher boost,
the pressure in the exhaust manifold rises and
> the more difference of
before and after the turbine spools up the turbos
> more to produce the
higher boost. Therefore backpressure will increase for
> sure when you
increase boost.
Thank you Roger, my oversight. This is why I ask
these silly questions. I will
have high backpressure against the
exhaust valve with GT357 turbos and headers
under high boost..
>
> Shims required for these seat loads are still far from binding the
>
> spring at full lift with our mild cams.
>
> Hmm, I doubt that
the load is a problem. You'll loose more power due to the
> fact that the
cam needs more belt-power to open the valves. I discuaased
> this with the
mechanic who did my heads and we came to the conclusion that
> to change
the valve guides is more beneficial than any other work on the
>
valvetrain. This because the outlet guides are somewhat too short for
>
increased power and start to wiggle, especially when more backpressure
>
occurs. This results in a higher tolerance (up to 0.15 mm !!!) Mitsu
gives
> for the ex valves in their guides. As porting the outlet channels
is the
> most important thing on our cars, the valve guide because
definitely too
> short and they should be replaced with custom ones with a
low tolerance.
> Mine are now close to 0.08mm and oil should not find its
way through them :)
Belt power shouldn't increase with higher seat load,
only cam torsions will be
increased. Every cam lobe ramp up has a ramp
down (power is used and then
returned). The slight increase in friction
under higher load is negligible.
Another point to ponder, 24psi boost
acting on the back side of an intake valve
(~1.2 cubic inches exposed to
intake manifold pressure) results in ~18 lbs of
force on the back side of the
valve head over stock. So instead of ~51 lbs seat
load while on base
circle (stock car under full 9 psi boost), there is now only
~33 lbs (24psi
boost). Granted this is very simplified and the pressures in
the
combustion chamber have also changed but it gets the point across.
Most people
(maybe not 3SI folks) raise seat pressure if they decide to run
higher rpms or
add boost. I'm going to dig into this further in the
coming days.
Also, I thought exhaust valve guide clearance was targeted
at .05-.09mm with a
.12mm limit. Where did .15 come from? Even if
max allowable is .12mm, I
realize this is high but GTP and others that I've
discussed this with feel this
is OK. Did you tighten yours up for oil
economy reasons, durability,
performance or what? Please
explain.
Thanks Roger!
Now I'm late for work, catch you
later,
Joe Gonsowski
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 08:45:06 -0400
From: "Scotty" <omnitech@fast.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: TAPPING NORMAL?????
What does Changing your exhaust system have
to do with a lifter tap?
Must of been the muffler bearing that was
loose.
Scotty
932 RT TT
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
"Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To:
"Team3S" <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Thursday, May 25, 2000 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: TAPPING
NORMAL?????
> I switched to a Borla exhaust with gutted cats -
that took care of the
> problem instantly :-)
>
>
Oskar
> '95 R/T TT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
From: "Scotty" <omnitech@fast.net>
> To: "'Team3S
List'" <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 2:58 PM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: TAPPING
NORMAL?????
>
>
> > I changed my oil with Quakerstate 10W30
Synthetic, and a Fram Extra
Guard
> > Filter, and it took the taping
away right away.
> >
> > Scotty
> > 92 RT TT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Matt Jannusch" <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
> > To:
"'Team3S List'" <team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 3:05 PM
> > Subject: RE: Team3S:
TAPPING NORMAL?????
> >
> >
> > > > Arty's
Cleaning Method:
> > > > From: Aso8@aol.com [mailto:Aso8@aol.com]
> > > > 1.
Drain off and replace one quart of oil with Marvel
> > > >
Mystery Oil.... Don't change Factory filter.
> > > > 2. Drive it
for 1000 miles. Not hard runs. Get the revs up
> > > > to about
3000 to 4500rpms but don't kill it. Just work
> > > > the stuff
in. Vary the revs.
> > > > 3. Change oil and filter after 1000
miles as follows: Mobil One
> > > > Extreme 0W-30 and a new
Factory filter. Ticking sound
> > > > should be gone with this
change but, Your Not Done Yet
> > > > ...Drive for another 500
miles with this oil change.
> > > > Revs the same way.
>
> > > 4. Now after that 500 miles. Change the Oil and Filter
again
> > > > to the normal Mobil One 10W-30 and a new factory
filter.
> > > > In really cold weather you can use 5W-30
too.
> > >
> > > Mine made the noise up to about 2000
RPM and then would go away, but
any
> > time idling it would come
back. I changed the oil filter and replace
the
> > oil with
Mobil-1 synthetic 0W30 oil and drove it about 600 miles (mostly
> >
city/highway combination driving). It never ticked with the 0W30 in.
I
> > switched back to 10W30 Mobil One synthetic and a new Mitsu filter
after
> that
> > and the tapping has luckily never come
back.
> > >
> > > On my previous Eclipse GSX, I used
Seafoam (similar to Marvel Mystery
> > Oil), poured in through the
valve cover and drove for 30 miles and
changed
> > the oil/filter
and that worked well also.
> > >
> > > Seems like
lighter oil or "solvents" push through the sludge out of
the
> >
hydraulic lifters, fixing the root problem - which is that the
oil
supply
> > into the lifters gets hindered, so they tap.
>
> >
> > > -Matt
> > > '95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
> > >
> > > ***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
>
> >
> > ***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
>
>
>
> ***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 08:14:23 CDT
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG, The stock bov sucks part 2!!!
Hey Vineet,
Your a
man after my own heart..... Your numbers are almost exactly what I'd
expect. I think you need to turn down the weight of the G-tech.
You should
start with 3700-3800 lbs. and add your weight and 6 lbs for every
gallon of
gas you have. That would be more accurate weight. And
since you have those
BBS rims you might want to trim the weight down
more. But if you have
stereo equipment, you'll have to add that
too.
If you took the weight down 400 lbs, it would probably translate to
about 30
less horsepower. With doing that, your numbers are very close
to the
numbers I've produced with the G-tech. My all out runs with
water
injection, 1G DSM BOV, no-cats, and 18psi of boost, nets about 330 hp
at the
wheels. That is using 4000lbs for weight on the
G-tech.
You also might want to try and get a few more runs in and average
them out.
I always do 6-10 runs and average them. The G-tech is
amazingly consistant.
I wish we knew the exact drivetrain loss, so we
could quote flywheel
horsepower. As a guess, I use 75 or 80 hp
loss. This is 25% of 300 and
320hp.
Do you put your car in 2nd
gear and just floor it from 2000rpm to 7000rpm,
to measure using the
G-tech?? This is what I do. If your on a flat road,
the G-tech
won't bounce very much.
Damn, we should of discussed our measuring
methods at the Upper Midwest
Gathering. Maybe next
year.......
I'm convinced the stock BOV starts to leak anything over
about 14-15psi. I
couldn't get my Stealth to boost more than 19psi
with the stock BOV. The
DSM BOV won't start to leak until around
19-20psi. Of course each stock BOV
will vary a little, based on age
and the condition of the spring. My stock
BOV rattles like a baby
toy. But it is still better then the 2G DSM BOV, so
my Stealth BOV
found its way into my 96 Eclipse. ;-)
Vineet, with your set-up and some
racing gas, you should be able to get into
the 12s at the drag strip.
The one disavantage you have with your 1G 3/S is
the 5 speed gearing.
The 6 speed gearing is a little better for drag
racing.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org
>From:
"Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
>
>@
83degrees, ALL below are averages of 3 runs.
>
>BASELINE CAR 4600lbs
2 people, full everything.
>(As purchased (STOCK), used with a single
oilchange)
> - ***215hp*** (all HP is WHEEL HP, not
ENGINE)
>
>CAR with TESTPIPE ONLY (automatic 1psi increase on STOCK
Gauge)
> - ***223hp***
>
>CAR with TP, and Gutted
pre-cats (total, 2psi increase)
> -
***238hp***
>
>
>
>Round two of mods, Car can exhaust
better, but can it breath???
>
>CAR with ALL ABOVE MODS, and a
K&N FIPK
> - ***256 hp*** (average of 4 runs @79 degrees) at
8psi of boost
>
>CAR with DSS JBC (Hallman type Boost Controller,
manual)
> - ***270 hp*** @ 10psi (and boost was more
responsive)
> - ***296 hp*** @ 13psi (set as high as I felt safe
with stock injectors)
>
>
>
>Round 3 of mods/tests,
Superfly!
>
>CAR with all above mods, and new plugs(.031
gap)/Magnecor wires, DSM 450cc
>injectors,
>S-AFC. Boost @ 18psi,
weight with driver, and no spare/jack/tools
>4400lbs. (I don't THINK the
car is THAT heavy, but I can't skew the weight
>I started testing with..
which was 4600lbs)
>
> - ***325 hp*** (average of 2 runs, @ 75
degrees)
>I have also been to the track, and could pull off 13.5's@100mph
all day.
>
>
>
>The only mod I did was the TALON 1g DSM
Blow off valve. I cut the flange
>off
>the stock DSM IC pipe,
welded it to a small scrap piece of pipe, made sure
>it didn't leak,
painted and installed as is (no crushing).
>
>Guess what happened? I
blew an IC pipe off the "Y" pipe, and boost had shot
>up to around 21
psi!!! (No, I didn't mess with the MBC yet!!!). Sucks to
>drive back to
the garage in "limp" mode. I lost the clamp as well. Not to
>worry, I
fixed everything, turned the boost down a single turn, and
>amazingly, it
was now set at max 18psi!
>
>You are saying... so? 18psi, that's
what you had before right? yes...
>kinda!
> - ***358 hp***
!!! (average of 3 runs @ 72 degrees)
>
>
>
>358hp??? how
come? I didn't change any boost setting, it's still 18psi...
>NOPE! it's a
much better 18psi, and at the top of second, IT DOESN'T DROP
>OFF TO
10psi! It drops only to 14-15 psi!!!
>
>That means the stock BOV was
leaking about 5 psi of boost at the top of
>each
>gear... which
meant the turbo's were probably overspinning, futily trying
>to
>maintain my 18psi setting. I'm sure before, with the stock 3/S
BOV, I was
>in
>a very inefficient "boost" producing zone for the
stock 9b turbo's... now I
>think they are perfect where they
are.
>
>I'm VERY pleased with this last mod, it should have been one
of the first,
>I
>just didn't realize the bov sucked so bad. The
car is much more responsive,
>boost rises faster, and now I have that
distinct "psshhsshhhh" sound
>between
>shifts!!!
>
>In
fact, it's so much more responsive, I actually fell into a kind
of
>feedback loop, accelerated, got pushed back in the seat which caused
the
>car
>to slow down and me move forward and hit the gas a bit
again... about 3
>times going over a bump, something I probably never
would have experienced
>with the stock 3/S BOV.
>
>The stock
3/S BOV is super leaky. Don't believe me? take yours off, clean
>it
>a bit (since you are gonna put your mouth on it), blow into
the BOTTOM end
>(not the tube that sticks out the side). Tell me if you
hear/feel air
>escaping through that side hole(return tube)! I almost
guarantee that you
>will, AND THAT'S AT MOST 2 PSI!!! imagine having 15+
psi on that tube, and
>VACUUM on the other end (towards the MAF). The
stock DSM one is ALL METAL,
>and not even a peep at 10 psi from my
compressor!
>
>Even if you have almost no mods on the car, changing
it to a stock 1g DSM
>BOV would be a good idea. It does get close to the
shifter linkages, but
>won't hit (in my case at least). You will either
need to buy a small
>adaptor
>for the bottom flange, or fabricate
it yourself.
>
>For the return tube, since the DSM tube is smaller
than the stock 3/S one,
>I
>had to cut the stock rubber return tube
for the DSM's, and insert a 1"
>section into the 3/S MAF tube. In THAT, I
stuck the end of the DSM BOV, and
>it sealed up great (this area never
sees boost, so don't worry too much
>about it)
>
>Oh yes, the
Gtech gave me a 13.5 quarter mile time, and it's usually always
>about
3-5/10's too slow, so I should hit 13.1's and 2's next time I go to
>the
track! Yay! I love my car!
>
>PS: what boost do I need (and other
mods) to run 12's on the stock 9b
>turbo's? I've heard of people doing
such a feat, that would rock! Do
you
________________________________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 07:44:40 -0600
From: Dean Knoepfle <speedfreek@uswest.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Detonation
Obviously no detonation is best, but what is an
allowable
amount of detonation? When you actually feel the
timing
being adjusted for detonation, is the detonation
extremely
high? Is it possible to tune in a Water/Alcohol
injection
system with just your EGT gauges? Last Question, Who
makes
the best system for our cars in your honest opinions?
Thanks in
advance for the input.
Dean
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 06:55:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
Thanks for the info Vineet, and the
comments Roger. I thought it was
just me when I found it difficult to get the
GReddy BOV "set just
right". I still wonder though, if the stock BOV is
leaking into the
intake track only (NOT the outside air) so what? This might
create a
small delay in reaching desired boost, but this is a closed
system,
no air loss. All the air gets to the cylinders eventually. In
fact,
if we are now pressurizing the intake track before the turbo that
is
a good thing! Vineet, was the stock valve leaking to the
atmosphere?
(picture of stock BOV and GReddy with GT-Pro adapter is
at:
http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-BOV1.htm
)
Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
Red 1992 Stealth TT - modified
--> http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/
-
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Friday, May 26, 2000 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV
SUCKS!
Just a side-note :
The stock BOV MUST leak ! On the top it
has a small hole where it
leaks through down to the inlet. This is for the
better behaviour at
light throttle lifts. The behaviour with an aftermarket
or 1st gen
DSM BOV becomes annyoing when in cruising mode (as an example) as
the
boost is dropped off too quick. Of course the BOV must then
be
adjusted but it takes some time until a good compromise has
been
found.
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
__________________________________________________
Do You
Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 07:26:52 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Bubbles
- ----- Original Message -----
From: John T. Christian <jczoom@geocities.com>
>
>
My TT boiled over at Putnam roadcourse.
>
> Now I have bubbles
coming up thru the anitfreeze when the filler cap
> near the plennum is
removed.
>
> I have a blown head gasket, right??
>
>
No leaks in hoses,etc. New thermostat, had radiator tested and
cleaned.
Could be a warped head --- aluminum heads are notorious for
that. I haven't
seen any posts complaining of head problems but you need to
go through
the whole cylinder head rebuild sequence. If you only want to do
one head
it should be easy to identify which cylinder/head has a problem ---
compression
test or visual check of the spark plugs will identify the problem
area.
Jim berry
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:29:32 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
Errin Humphrey said:
> If you
blow hard enough into the stock air bypass valve "inlet",
> it ~should~
leak through. That's how an ABV/BOV works.
It should only open when
there is vacuum on the signal line or a reasonably high pressure
differential. A small amount of pressure alone should not open the valve
(certainly not only 2-3 psi!). My Blitz valve doesn't work that way, nor
does the 1G DSM valve, nor does a Greddy valve. The fact is, the stock BOV
leaks at VERY low pressure differentials and cannot be relied upon to hold the
boost in. Just from the air going through the throttle body, it is
probably going to lose a little bit of pressure, possibly enough to start
opening the valve if it is that sensitive.
I see your point about it
opening when there is a pressure differential, but I would rather have one that
is a little bit tighter at low pressure differentials. I didn't have to
blow into the valve very hard at all to make it leak, and since there's a vastly
different intake sound on my car now (not nearly as much "whooshing" sound at
boost), the stock one was leaking before and the 1G DSM one does not.
If
the turbos go through all the effort of pressurizing the air, you might as well
make sure it all goes into the throttle body! :-)
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:38:22 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
> The stock BOV MUST leak ! On the top
it has a small hole where it leaks
> through down to the inlet. This is
for the better behaviour at light
> throttle lifts.
Actually, I
found the reverse to be true on my car. It is much more responsive with
small pedal movements than it was before. If I get the car up to around 15
psi near 3500 rpm, let off the gas for a second and punch it again, it is nearly
instantaneously at 10 psi and jumps back to 15 psi quicker than it did before,
previously it would've started near 5 psi instead of 10 psi. Maybe I had a
severely crippled factory valve, I dunno?
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:45:11 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
> All the air gets to the cylinders
eventually. In fact,
> if we are now pressurizing the intake track before
the turbo that is
> a good thing! Vineet, was the stock valve leaking to
the atmosphere?
It does return the air into the intake after the MAF
sensor, however since that section of pipe is open on the air filter end, it
isn't really pressurized and doesn't help. At least we haven't counted air
in the MAF and then exited it from the system, so the A/F ratio is unaffected by
the BOV leaking air. Thank the Engineers for at least getting that part
right! :-)
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 09:29:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: OMG! STOCK BOV SUCKS!
Ok..
Given all this data..whats
the best BOV I can buy for a 95 VR4
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 09:36:34 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG, The stock bov sucks part 2!!!
> You also might want
to try and get a few more runs in and average them out.
> I always do 6-10
runs and average them. The G-tech is amazingly
consistant.
> I wish we knew the exact drivetrain loss, so we
could quote flywheel
> horsepower. As a guess, I use 75 or 80 hp
loss. This is 25% of 300 and
> 320hp.
The Three Amigos
(Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this in their Feb. 99 dyno tests.
Both the 5 speed
and the 6 speed drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
- --
If you're not
the lead car, your view never changes!
Ken Middaugh (858)
455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 09:46:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: OMG, The stock bov sucks part 2!!!
Weve been over
this..
99hp is a number AT a specific crank power.
Lets kindly
convert that into a percentage which is actually accurate.
On Fri, 26 May
2000, Ken Middaugh wrote:
>
> > You also might want to try
and get a few more runs in and average them out.
> > I always do 6-10
runs and average them. The G-tech is amazingly consistant.
>
> I wish we knew the exact drivetrain loss, so we could quote
flywheel
> > horsepower. As a guess, I use 75 or 80 hp
loss. This is 25% of 300 and
> > 320hp.
>
> The
Three Amigos (Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this in their Feb. 99 dyno tests.
>
Both the 5 speed and the 6 speed drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
>
> --
> If you're not the lead car, your view never
changes!
>
> Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
> General
Atomics
> San Diego
>
> ***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:00:02 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
Crank power has nothing to do with
it. The drivetrain has losses regardless of
what HP the engine
has. Their loss measurements were taken by getting the RPM's
up on the
drivetrain, then either pushing in the clutch or putting it in neutral
and
measuring the decelleration of the rotating masses and friction of
the
bearings and tires. Roger can provide details and the exact
procedure they
used.
> Weve been over this..
>
> 99hp
is a number AT a specific crank power.
>
> Lets kindly convert that
into a percentage which is actually accurate.
>
> On Fri, 26 May
2000, Ken Middaugh wrote:
>
> >
> > > You also might
want to try and get a few more runs in and average them out.
> > > I
always do 6-10 runs and average them. The G-tech is amazingly
consistant.
> > > I wish we knew the exact drivetrain
loss, so we could quote flywheel
> > > horsepower. As a guess,
I use 75 or 80 hp loss. This is 25% of 300 and
> > >
320hp.
> >
> > The Three Amigos (Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this
in their Feb. 99 dyno tests.
> > Both the 5 speed and the 6 speed
drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
> >
- --
If you're not
the lead car, your view never changes!
Ken Middaugh (858)
455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:03:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
Ok, so I gotta make 100Hp, to roll the car
forward then....since theres a
99hp loss.
On Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken
Middaugh wrote:
> Crank power has nothing to do with it. The
drivetrain has losses regardless of
> what HP the engine has. Their
loss measurements were taken by getting the RPM's
> up on the drivetrain,
then either pushing in the clutch or putting it in neutral
> and measuring
the decelleration of the rotating masses and friction of the
> bearings
and tires. Roger can provide details and the exact procedure they
>
used.
>
> > Weve been over this..
> >
> >
99hp is a number AT a specific crank power.
> >
> > Lets
kindly convert that into a percentage which is actually accurate.
> >
> > On Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken Middaugh wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > > > You also might want to try and get a few more
runs in and average them out.
> > > > I always do 6-10 runs and
average them. The G-tech is amazingly consistant.
> > >
> I wish we knew the exact drivetrain loss, so we could quote
flywheel
> > > > horsepower. As a guess, I use 75 or 80 hp
loss. This is 25% of 300 and
> > > > 320hp.
> >
>
> > > The Three Amigos (Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this in their
Feb. 99 dyno tests.
> > > Both the 5 speed and the 6 speed
drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
> > >
>
> --
> If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!
>
>
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
> General Atomics
> San Diego
>
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:10:02 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
Unless perhaps, you meant that it takes
more horsepower to overcome the
drivetrain losses at a higher rate of
acceleration versus the amount of HP
required at a lower rate of
acceleration. I'll leave that to the more
math/physics
inclined.
>
> Crank power has nothing to do with it. The
drivetrain has losses regardless of
> what HP the engine has. Their
loss measurements were taken by getting the RPM's
> up on the drivetrain,
then either pushing in the clutch or putting it in neutral
> and measuring
the decelleration of the rotating masses and friction of the
> bearings
and tires. Roger can provide details and the exact procedure they
>
used.
>
> > Weve been over this..
> >
> > 99hp
is a number AT a specific crank power.
> >
> > Lets kindly
convert that into a percentage which is actually accurate.
> >
>
> On Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken Middaugh wrote:
> >
> >
>
> > > > You also might want to try and get a few more runs
in and average them out.
> > > > I always do 6-10 runs and
average them. The G-tech is amazingly consistant.
> > >
> I wish we knew the exact drivetrain loss, so we could quote
flywheel
> > > > horsepower. As a guess, I use 75 or 80 hp
loss. This is 25% of 300 and
> > > > 320hp.
> >
>
> > > The Three Amigos (Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this in their
Feb. 99 dyno tests.
> > > Both the 5 speed and the 6 speed
drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
- --
If you're not the lead car,
your view never changes!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General
Atomics
San Diego
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:17:45 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Drivetrain Loss WAS: OMG, The stock bov sucks part
2!!!
> > The Three Amigos (Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this in their
> > Feb. 99 dyno tests.
> > Both the 5 speed and the 6 speed
drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
>
> 99hp is a number AT a
specific crank power.
>
> Lets kindly convert that into a
percentage which is actually accurate.
Not that I'm the expert here, but
isn't drivetrain loss a function of engine
RPM? Thus it's low at low
RPM which is why the engine doesn't have to make
100HP to start the car
moving, and it's high where the peak HP of the engine
is, which is why you
hear the big number quoted. Everyone says, "The car
has 320HP at the
crank and 99HP drivetrain loss," but that doesn't mean
that the car has
320HP at the crank at 1000RPM, nor does it mean it loses
99HP in the
drivetrain at 1000RPM. So, you could have drivetrain loss that
was
independent of the power you're making at the crank and yet it's not
constant
a set constant under all conditions, either...
My 2HP :)
-
--Erik
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 12:25:55 CDT
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
I think what needs to be understood, is
at high rpms or close to peek
horsepower the drivetrain loss is a certain
percentage or horsepower number.
BOTH those numbers change depending
how much horsepower is being put out
by the engine.
Take tires as an
example. Your tire making contact with the ground is part
of your
drivetrain loss. When your driving slowly, the loss created by your
tires is less than when your driving faster, say 65mph. Of course the
tires
touching the pavement makes up only a small portion of drivetrain
loss, but
you get the point. Gears, and rotating mass follow the same
principles.
On one other note.... I realize that the "Three Amigos"
came up with 99hp
loss on there dyno tests, but that just seems too high for
me. 75 to 80
horsepower makes more sense to me. And that is what
my G-tech testing on a
stock 3/S comes up with to get it to 320hp at the
crank.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org
>From:
Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>To:
Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
>CC:
Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>,
Curt Gendron
><curt_gendron@hotmail.com>, team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>Subject:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:03:05 -0700
(PDT)
>
>Ok, so I gotta make 100Hp, to roll the car forward
then....since theres a
>99hp loss.
>
>On Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken
Middaugh wrote:
>
> > Crank power has nothing to do with
it. The drivetrain has losses
>regardless of
> > what HP
the engine has. Their loss measurements were taken by getting
>the
RPM's
> > up on the drivetrain, then either pushing in the clutch or
putting it in
>neutral
> > and measuring the decelleration of
the rotating masses and friction of
>the
> > bearings and
tires. Roger can provide details and the exact procedure
>they
> > used.
> >
> > > Weve been over
this..
> > >
> > > 99hp is a number AT a specific crank
power.
> > >
> > > Lets kindly convert that into a
percentage which is actually accurate.
> > >
> > > On
Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken Middaugh
wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 26 May 2000 10:19:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: drivetrain losses
Ok..thats fair.
Losses are NOT
static, are NOT linear..but "depend" is much more accurate
than saying its
99hp.
On Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken Middaugh wrote:
> Unless
perhaps, you meant that it takes more horsepower to overcome the
>
drivetrain losses at a higher rate of acceleration versus the amount of
HP
> required at a lower rate of acceleration. I'll leave that to
the more
> math/physics inclined.
>
> >
> >
Crank power has nothing to do with it. The drivetrain has losses
regardless of
> > what HP the engine has. Their loss measurements
were taken by getting the RPM's
> > up on the drivetrain, then either
pushing in the clutch or putting it in neutral
> > and measuring the
decelleration of the rotating masses and friction of the
> > bearings
and tires. Roger can provide details and the exact procedure they
>
> used.
> >
> > > Weve been over this..
> >
>
> > > 99hp is a number AT a specific crank power.
> >
>
> > > Lets kindly convert that into a percentage which is
actually accurate.
> > >
> > > On Fri, 26 May 2000, Ken
Middaugh wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> You also might want to try and get a few more runs in and average them
out.
> > > > > I always do 6-10 runs and average them.
The G-tech is amazingly consistant.
> > > > > I
wish we knew the exact drivetrain loss, so we could quote flywheel
> >
> > > horsepower. As a guess, I use 75 or 80 hp loss. This
is 25% of 300 and
> > > > > 320hp.
> > >
>
> > > > The Three Amigos (Roger, Mikael, Jim) did this in
their Feb. 99 dyno tests.
> > > > Both the 5 speed and the 6
speed drivetrain losses are ABOUT 99 HP.
>
> --
> If you're
not the lead car, your view never changes!
>
> Ken Middaugh (858)
455-4510
> General Atomics
> San Diego
>
***Info: www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
End
of team3s V1 #149
*********************