team3s              Friday, May 12 2000              Volume 01 : Number 134




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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:43:50 -0700
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

Sounds like a winner to me!

I may get around to pulling it out this evening..since the car was stolen the
washer pump hasnt worked anyway *heh*

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark [mailto:pagan@siscom.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 4:30 PM
To: Team3S List
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..


At 02:41 PM 5/11/00 -0700, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>*laugh*
>
>So just how did you do that?
>
>
<snip>

Well, interestingly enough I got a 2" pipe plug.  It is really just 2
pieces of metal with a rubbery gasket in the middle and a stud with a wing
nut on top.  Rather simple idea, tighten the nut the pieces of metal close
together squashing the gasket (washer thing).  This causes it to get bigger
and seal up tight.  Air tight.  In fact, when testing the top my friend and
I put a air hose in the line coming out of the pump to see if the rest of
the washer bottle was air tight.  We regulated the line at 20 psi (since I
don't really think I would put more than that in it) and viola, it held.
The interesting thing is that we grabbed the wrong air line in the garage
and got one that was unregulated.  We put about 165 psi of pressure in that
tank.  It swelled like a balloon, but quickly shrunk back down.  The good
news is, no air leak :).

BTW, the 2" pipe plug gasket is too big.  We shrank mine down with a belt
sander.  Very messy.

Tank works great!

Mark
'93 R/T TT

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:03:29 -0700
From: "Ryan Peterson" <ryanp@crcwnet.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Gas cover release

The spring might have come off or got bent. Get a friend, have him pull up
on the lever, then you get a plastic stick (so the paint won't chip) and pry
the door open. Then fix your spring. I had the same trouble once.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
[mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On Behalf Of Brett Russell
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:11 AM
To: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Gas cover release


Hey all, I'm having a bit of a problem with my 3000 this morning; my gas
tank cover won't open.


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:50:03 -0400
From: "Heikki Pikkujamsa" <hpikkujamsa@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil

I use Mobil Synthetic 0W-30. This oil was tested to be the second best by
the biggest Scandinavian technical magazine, Tekniikan Maailma, in Finland.
The best oil tested was Castrol Syntec 0W-30, but unfortunately it is not
available here in USA. Test included all major oil brands available in
Europe and was very thorough. I can try to get a copy of the test and
translate it if you are interested.

I have been using Mobil 0W-30 with K&N oil filter with very good results.
Oil consumption is null, and it also stopped my lash adjuster tick
completely. Redline is my choice for tranny/transaxle and rear end.

Heikki
'92 R/T TT



***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:07:06 -0500
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need a way to determine rod bearing failure...

Chris,
A good way to check it without removing anything else would be to rotate
the crankshaft until a piston is just past top dead center (just starting
the downward movement). At this point, push on the top of the piston while
keeping the crank still. If the piston moves without the crank moving, you
have a bad rod bearing. Repeat for all 6 pistons. If the front head is
still on the engine, rotate the cams in such a way as to relieve the
pressure from as many valves as possible, to prevent interference between
the valves and pistons.

Keep in mind that this method of testing will work only with bearings that
are pretty worn, but if ANY movement occurs, you should remove the oil pan
and check from underneath.....

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:59:51 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Go-Kart Track

Just in case you haven't seen a go-kart track before, here's what one looks
like:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/1222/autoxfl1.htm

In my previous post, I said we were running a 60 mph average speed there,
but I thought the track was 0.7 miles. In fact, it is 0.6 miles, which cuts
the average speed for a :40 lap to

...hmmm, let's see...ah, minutes per mile times.. ah.. er.. 

54.54 mph, I think. Any pro rallyists out there?

The start/finish line is the white line across the track at the top center.
We go CCW from the S/F line: It leads to a sharp right, then a big
horseshoe left,  then a straight where you hit about 70-75 before braking,
turning left, and sliding right to the edge of the railroad tracks
(protected by tires), then 70-75 to another horseshoe left, where an
instructor says the fast way through is to diamond the turn (I never did it
right). Then to the fastest part of the track, where the fast guys (not me)
hit 80 mph before the carousel turn to the right, then a quick burst to the
last left hand horseshoe and back to the start/finish line. Most cars run
the entire thing in 2nd gear. Who says go-kart tracks aren't fun?

In autocrosses, cars enter the track from the top left, take a warmup run
around the track, and cross the S/F line at speed for the official start,
then run two laps. A hot time for two laps in a street-legal car is 1:19.

It is totally unlike most autocrosses, because you get to warm up the tires
and brakes, and there are no slaloms, Chicago boxes, gates or  pylons.
Several Iowa clubs run there, including SCCA, Porsche, and Mustang clubs --
plus little gangs of cars, like our 10 cars from Cedar Rapids that rented
it for the afternoon at $50 per car.

Rich/94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4





***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:21:26 -0700
From: vect0r0 <vect0r0@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need a way to determine rod bearing failure...

Is there a detailed description of the removal of the lower end of an engine?
I have a mechanic coming to my house this weekend to work on my car.  Any
ideas/help will save me a LOT of money as I can begin the process before he
arrives.  I've heard that the transfer case has to be removed???  Any help
will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance!

John


Wayne wrote:

> Keep in mind that this method of testing will work only with bearings that
> are pretty worn, but if ANY movement occurs, you should remove the oil pan
> and check from underneath.....
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:32:22 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's next?

If you think your suspension is good now, just wait until you have GABs...no
sh*t.  Spend the wad on GABs and be done with it.  Then drive the wheels off
of it.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> We tested my suspension upgrades yesterday, and now I'm not sure where to
> go from here.
>
> An instructor measured the tire temps after a couple of hot laps
> (immediate
> turn off the track, directly to the pyrometer, no cool down at ALL!). The
> tires read 190 deg inside and out, and 185 in the center. The instructor
> says that was absolutely dead-on perfect, and I should be very happy,
> because lots of guys agonize over getting their tire temps to a 5-deg
> spread and I got it the first time out (pure luck, gang! Or maybe a good
> suspension shop.). He says I could make miniscule changes in the tire
> pressure to get 190 all the way across, but he'd leave it alone otherwise.
>
> Observers say the car corners completely flat.
>
> I am wondering what to do next, if at all.
>
> Here's the situation: I run Eibach springs (550 front/315 rear)
> with Ground
> Control adjustable suspension and camber plates on stock struts. The car
> has been  lowered 1.5 in. all the way around. It has Yoko A032R tires. I
> run 1 deg negative camber, +0.15 toe, and maximum castor (+4.5 deg). We
> tested on a 0.7 mile/13 turn go kart track with about a 60 mph average
> speed, top speed of 70+, nice warm spring day, and ran 75 laps. We ran
> about 40 laps before checking tire temps.
>
> I can still get some push and scrub the front tires, but two instructors
> tell me I am overdriving the tires when that happens, and I should go a
> little slower to go faster. There is no question that *I* have to improve
> to go faster (be smoother and more consistent), but my question
> involve car
> prep:
>
> Is there anything else I can do to improve the CAR'S cornering ability?
> Sway bars? Chassis stiffeners? Polyurethane bushings?  Or do the tire
> temperatures say that I am at the optimum point now?
>
> Mitsubishi lore says that the Eibachs will ruin my stock struts very
> quickly, because the stock shocks can't take the abuse from the
> higher rate
> springs. So, what kind of shocks should I go to next? GABs seem to be the
> strut of choice for Mitsus.
>
> Another instructor said to leave the furshlugginer suspension alone and
> just get more seat time. He also suggested I forgoe any horsepower mods
> until I get used to the new suspension. I'm still running a stock engine.
> (I was kinda hoping that my suspension mods were at an end, so I
> could kick
> it up to 400 hp)
>
> All advice is welcome.
>
> Rich/94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 AWD
>
>
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:43:29 -0700
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil

Define major brands..

Wal Mart availability, or known high-performance synthetics available at
performance minded retail locations.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Heikki Pikkujamsa [mailto:hpikkujamsa@compuserve.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 6:50 PM
To: 3S Team (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil


I use Mobil Synthetic 0W-30. This oil was tested to be the second best by
the biggest Scandinavian technical magazine, Tekniikan Maailma, in Finland.
The best oil tested was Castrol Syntec 0W-30, but unfortunately it is not
available here in USA. Test included all major oil brands available in
Europe and was very thorough. I can try to get a copy of the test and
translate it if you are interested.

I have been using Mobil 0W-30 with K&N oil filter with very good results.
Oil consumption is null, and it also stopped my lash adjuster tick
completely. Redline is my choice for tranny/transaxle and rear end.

Heikki
'92 R/T TT



***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:46:34 EDT
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: How much $$$ to ship a car?

I'm moving from Indiana to Kansas in about a month. (one exotic locale to
another!) I've got two cars so I'll need to drive one and ship the other.


If I ship the 3000GT:
Anybody know of a Good carrier for shipping cars and how much it will cost?



If I ship the rusty '87 Ford Bronco:
Anybody know of a CHEAP carrier for shipping cars and how much it will cost?

Thanks!

Paul Klusman

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:39:23 -0700
From: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: IC Upgrade Efficiency

Sorry I haven't replied to this in a while but here goes....

First off here's the specs of my setup at the time of the "test" runs:

368sx Turbos at 15 psi
720 cc injectors

runs were made near my house on a bunch of curvy roads where I had to brake
and accelerate a lot. I KNOW that these are not optimal testing conditions
but that's what I had at the time. I wanted info on what my intercoolers
were capable of and since my car isn't track ready quite yet, that's all I
had.
200 degrees inlet temp was the MAX I've seen in my car EVER. Before my turbo
upgrade, the max inlet I saw was 165 degrees with 9b's and outlet temp was
still around 5-7 degrees above ambient.


From: "xwing" <xwing@execpc.com>
> You'd have to set a boost value (the higher the better, as that makes
> more heat); and just HOLD THAT BOOST VALUE at some
> vehicle speed, say 60mph, by having the THROTTLE FLOORED
> while HOLDING THE FOOTBRAKE so engine rpm and boost
> remain constant, (wearing your brakes plenty)
> hold THIS for say 20-30 seconds to EQUILIBRATE the system
> and produce TRUE efficiency rating of the intercooler system.
Sorry buddy, I like my car to much to abuse it like that! Abuse at the
track... sure...  but unecessary abuse like that is unwarranted... at least
for me. Brake pads, rotors and drivetrain abuse are things I try to avoid
when not at the track!


> Should specify which turbos; what car speed; rpm; boost;
> which IC core; how mounted/sealed to frontend; how long
> you held the value; and maybe based on how fast temp at
> outlet was curving upward by the time you had to stop,
> you could extrapolate where it would end up at at steady-state.
GT-Pro 368sx Turbos. Car speed was variable... don't remember exactly but
somewhere around 80mph. Boost was limited to 15psi. I don't have an EGT
guage mounted yet so I WON'T push my boost beyond that. Gotta remember guys,
I just had the turbo's installed... didn't wanna blow up my car right away.
Sorry, but I didn't have time to watch the temp curve since I was driving at
the time.....

> Just running up on acceleration for 15 seconds at unspecified
> speed/boost/rpm (turbo airflow) values is not enough information.  If
> going to all the
> trouble of a temp sensor before and after IC, that is great!--but
> PUSH that IC with a HARD test (I'd like to see 20 psi at
> 5000rpm for 20 seconds at 60mph or so, but at least TRY to do it as long
> as
> possible until brakes overheat--may be less than 20 secs).
> If smaller turbos, try 15psi at 4500 or some such, just specify.
> I suspect the huge FMIC cores now popular will do well,
> but am not sure about taking 20 psi = 320 Fahrenheit air and
> cooling it to 5 F above ambient continuously (such as roadcourse).
I DID NOT just run the car for 15 seconds. I pushed the car pretty damn hard
for a while in order to see 200 degrees. And don't worry, I'll run high
boost at a road race track in the future. My car needs a roll cage and other
things before I take the Stealth to the track again. I know at 5 degrees
above ambient probably won't hold up under road race situations but come on
guys! It's still pretty damn good.


> Turbo outlet temperatures at boost values:
> 15psi = 275F;  20psi = 320F;  25psi = 360F, all at 70% compressor
> efficiency, for reference comparison.
Those figures are at the turbo right? I assume that all my aluminum piping
and the length required for the piping to reach the actual intercooler has
something to do with my lower readings AT the intercooler.

Jack, I'm just an enthusiast. I offered those numbers and the little test to
share with the rest of you since no-one seemed to believe that the FMIC
worked. I have no problem running tests for you guys, as a matter of fact, I
would be more than happy to. But please make the test a little more
realistic. I am not gonna hold 60mph with my brakes and keep the gas
floored! Geez, I don't wanna ruin another tranny, buy a set of brake pads
and new rotors JUST for a few little tests for a product I know works better
than anything else out there. When my car is ready... I'll run it on a road
course (that's my first love anyways) and take the car to a drag strip...
I'll give you guys my results when that happens... might take a while since
I am not made of money.

Jose Soriano
visit my Stealth site at www.3si.org/amahoser





***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:55:16 -0700
From: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: IC Upgrade Efficiency

Oh yeah... forgot....

> Should specify which turbos; what car speed; rpm; boost;
> which IC core; how mounted/sealed to frontend;
The front end is NOT sealed at this time. There is no plastic undertray in
the font. I plan on putting something in in the future.... check out my site
under "MODIFICATION" for pics!


Jose Soriano
visit my Stealth site at www.3si.org/amahoser





***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:14:31 +0100
From: "Martin" <martin@star.co.uk>
Subject: Team3S: Wheel bearings?

Hi all
I am fairly new to the list and got my first 3k GTO a couple of weeks ago so please bear with me if this subject has been covered.
I am getting quite a violent wobble from the front wheels upon braking at high speed.
I have had the wheels balanced and the four wheel alignment checked which is well within the tolerance settings.
The pads look OK but I am not sure about the rotors, but one thing I did notice is that when I had the wheels up off the ground I grabbed the wheel at 6 and 12 O'clock and there is about half an inch of play.
Is this normal? or can I tighten this up with the centre nut and to what torque?
Or do you think that the bearings need replacing?
Is this a big job such as needing a press or something.
Sorry for all these questions but I don't have a manual of any sort so I can't look up the info.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Martin Berkley



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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:41:04 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: IC Upgrade Efficiency

> 368sx Turbos at 15 psi
> 720 cc injectors

One thing to note is that the 368sx do not produce any hot discharge air at
low 15psi. Therefore the large IC is an overkill at the moment. Of course,
big airflow also means big piping and IC core to prevent any boost loss but
at the moment the IC doesn't have to work a lot :) We'll see what happens at
20 psi or more ;-)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:07:59 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil

Lubricant, no matter if it's Dino or Man made gets dirty.  By-product of
combustion of air and gasoline is carbon.  There is now way around that.
Amsoil may very well be the best oil on the market, but I will never buy a
product whose manufacture is try to sham the public into believing that it
is 'perfectly safe' to drive 50,000 miles without changing the oil. 

John Basol
'95 RT/TT <-- Mobile 1 - 15W50 EVERY 3,000 miles


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 07:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: IC Upgrade Efficiency

Well according to theory, at PR=2 (15psi+14.7/14.7psi) and
ambient T=75ºF (actually probably warmer into turbo), exit temp
from compressor would be 191ºF (535ºF x 2^0.283 minus 460) with
100% efficiency. Even assuming an outrageous 80% eff., real exit
temps would be 75 + (116/0.8) = 220. And all this while assuming
no pressure loss from compressor to plenum!

At a minumum we will have 0.5-1 psi loss from friction in the
pipes and that again from the IC, so at a probable 90ºF into
turbo, PR=2.1 (16.2 boost at turbo), and 0.75 compressor eff.,
we get 261ºF comimg out of the turbo. Gee, is the "theory" wrong
or is a measurement off somewhere or did I screw up the math or
do we have the perfect (loss-less) turbo and IC here?

Jeff Lucius

- ----- Original Message -----
From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: Team3S <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: IC Upgrade Efficiency

> 368sx Turbos at 15 psi
> 720 cc injectors

One thing to note is that the 368sx do not produce any hot
discharge air at low 15psi. Therefore the large IC is an
overkill at the moment. Of course, big airflow also means big
piping and IC core to prevent any boost loss but at the moment
the IC doesn't have to work a lot :) We'll see what happens at
20 psi or more ;-)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:20:06 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: Team3S: TMO Datalogger on a '95?

I know that it doesn't plug into the OBD-II style connector, and I know that OBD-II tools don't work on the ECU, even though it has an OBD-II connector (I tried anyways, despite what people said - mostly because I am desperate to have datalogging).

My question is:  Has anyone tried to graft an OBD-II connector (connecing the proper pins) onto a TMO Datalogger and get it to talk to the OBD-I ECU, and was it successful or not?

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:37:15 -0700
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: How much $$$ to ship a car?

Gonna cost me $800 to ship a car from Tulsa to San Jose, CA..so cant be more
than that.

Consider paying a friend to drive it there, then fly him home..much cheaper.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Klusmanp@aol.com [mailto:Klusmanp@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:47 PM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: How much $$$ to ship a car?


I'm moving from Indiana to Kansas in about a month. (one exotic locale to
another!) I've got two cars so I'll need to drive one and ship the other.


If I ship the 3000GT:
Anybody know of a Good carrier for shipping cars and how much it will cost?



If I ship the rusty '87 Ford Bronco:
Anybody know of a CHEAP carrier for shipping cars and how much it will cost?

Thanks!

Paul Klusman

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:44:21 -0700
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil

Nobody said you had to leave the filter there for 50k miles..

A little common sense please.


And an oils ability to chemically remain stable in the acidic conditions of
combustion byproducts is a factor as well.

I go about 15k between changes with my hard city driving, and change filter
every 3k.

I routinely send away samples of used oil to a friend of mine that he diagnoses
for part of this Thesis he has to defend later this year, and so far my used oil
has remained chemically strong as it was new, viscosity hasnt changed, and
evaporation/ash volumes are still -0-.

You dont want to know how amsoil tested as -new- oil either.

I should have results by the middle of june W/testing procedures.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Basol, John [mailto:jbasol@Carlson.com]
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 6:08 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil


Lubricant, no matter if it's Dino or Man made gets dirty.  By-product of
combustion of air and gasoline is carbon.  There is now way around that.
Amsoil may very well be the best oil on the market, but I will never buy a
product whose manufacture is try to sham the public into believing that it
is 'perfectly safe' to drive 50,000 miles without changing the oil. 

John Basol
'95 RT/TT <-- Mobile 1 - 15W50 EVERY 3,000 miles


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:05:38 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil

I'm aware they recommend changing the filter.  I find it extremely difficult
to believe that it does not get dirty, even with frequent filter changes.  I
do find it easily acceptable to create a lubricant that can maintain film
strength for extended periods of time.  It's simply the dirt issue I can't
overlook.  Perhaps I am too old school, but the extremely small financial,
and time investment into oil changes just doesn't seem to outweigh the risk
involved, in my mind anyway.  I've rarely heard professional pit crews say
"Gee, if only we hadn't changed the oil so often."  The few
semi-professional teams I know change oil after every event.  Perhaps that
is a bit drastic, but I bet they look at it the same way I do....cheap
insurance.

John Basol
Wasting oil all over the place  :-)



-----Original Message-----
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com [SMTP:jeff.mohler@netapp.com]
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 10:44 AM
To: jbasol@Carlson.com; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Motor Oil

Nobody said you had to leave the filter there for 50k miles..

A little common sense please.




***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:53:10 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Calculated boost behaviour with 13g

Hey Roger,

It looks like I should have reread your post before sending my reply, instead of
just looking at the graph a day later and replying :o.  My mistake :(, I
apoligize.

Yes, you explained everything very well, that only the second half of the graph
is relevant, and that boost was calculated from air flow frequency.

"Shift my gaze" -- More language misunderstandings ;).  I meant that I was
looking at my SPI gauge.  When the boost reached 14.5, I looked over (shifted my
gaze) to the RPM gauge.

By the way, you express yourself very well using American English, better than
many Americans ;).  No doubt that our cliches and slang must be difficult to
understand for our friends in which English is not their primary language.

I always look forward to your tests & measurments.  They are invaluable to our
group.  I'm especially looking forward to test results in which you determine
how high you can boost without detonation using your new 720 injectors and water
injection.

Regards,
Ken

>
> Ken et all,
>
> > This graph you calculated from injector frequency is very interesting but
> IMHO
> > doesn't seem representative of true boost.
>
> No, it isn't calculated from the injector frequency at all. It's the signal
> given from the ARC upon the value it read from the MAF.
>
> >  It shows you don't reach 14.5 psi until almost 4100 RPM and also the
> curve has a noticable hump.
>
> I thought I explained why this is and in a next run I will record the data
> on a flat road. Please understand that I can't do this in 4rd gear as I'd
> exceed our speed limit on our highways a lot ;-)
>
> > For a contrast, my '91 with stock 9B's controlled with an SAVC-R and stock
> > exhaust & cats will reach 14.2 psi (visually measured by my SPI gauge and
> > corroberated with the SAVC-R gauge last night) between 3200-3400 RPM
> > depending upon the gear (2nd-4th), the incline of the road, and how quick
> I
> > shift my gaze from the SPI boost gauge to the RPM gauge.
>
> Do not shift ! My recorded data is like a run on the dyno. Choose a flat
> road and start at 1800 rpm WOT in 3rd gear up to 6000-7000 (210km/h at 7k)
> You will see that boost climbs up and will indeed reach max boost around
> 3200 or even a little earlier, depending on the controller and how the low
> end is handeled. In this situation, the discharge temperature and the
> efficiency of the turbo are on the bad islands pretty soon and the IC have
> to work overtime.
>
> > The SAVC-R graph modes also always show a very
> > flat line from 3400-5100 RPM or so
>
> Yes, this is the same with a simulated 1/4 mile run, although I'm above 4800
> in these cases but due to the light overboost after shifting, the whole
> bosot is a little higher. Watch the resolution of the AVC-R2 and what's the
> difference of two dots on the display are. I think its pretty accurate for
> what I have seen.
>
> > How accurate do you feel your graph is?
>
> I took two reference points, at 4k and 5k. Both are corresponding to the
> calculation and therefore the possible error is around 2-4% due to the
> adjustability of the ARC. But look at the graph again, the resolution is
> high on the axis and you'll note that I still have 13.4psi (0.94 kg/cm2) at
> 6000 rpm what I think is not bad. And at 5100 boost is still 14.4psi (1.01
> kg/cm2) compared to the 14.8psi (1.04 kg/cm2) max boost. What is the
> measured boost at those rpm with the AVC-R2 ?
>
> Just record the same data on the AVC-R and I'm pretty positive you'll find
> somewhat same data. The diffenrence between 4000 and 5100 is only 2.7% and
> is what I've seen on the two peak-holds of the Blitz stuff (pressing reset
> at the right moment. Of course my finger trigger is not that accurate and
> fast enough and therefore 2-4% offset is possible) and I like to be on the
> lower/safe side than on the too optimistic side.
>
> > While it is accurate as far as your ECU & injectors are
> > concerned, I'd guess it is a little pessimistic of what your true boost
> really
> > is.
>
> Of course me too but driving the car around lately and watching the boost
> gauges more than usually are proving the results. Of course I will only
> believe in data that is really measured from a boost sensor and I hope to be
> able to get the measuring device up and running next week. Then I "simply"
> have to put both data together and then adjust the conversion factors for
> the formula. As said, the data is NOT by the injectors (I do also have a
> combined boost, IDC% chart) but it is from the air flow signal read by the
> ECU. This signal determines how much fuel must be given. Of ocurse, if I
> change the ARC setting to richer, I'm simulating more air flow. But the
> trick is that the ARC is NOT rpm related like an AFC or GCC as it is load
> related. If I'd change the mixture by +2% I'd see 2% higher air flow
> reading. But the 2% are still the same if the car is still under full load.
> And I will then also see 2% more boost and with the reference point I will
> then have to reduce the factor by 2% to get the same boost at the points as
> measured. This compensates the change on the ARC and again shows the same
> curve. BTW, the air flow did only show an increase up to 6000 rpm. After
> that it stayed constant, i.e. the consumption increase of the engine and the
> loss of the turbo where the same. I can't wait to see a curve with larger
> turbos as then the flow should still grow.
>
> Yes, I also gave me the same question after the curve has been drawn the
> first time. It wasn't just flat enough and I couldn't do anything against
> the problem when boost falls below 0 (vacuum). But the interesting area is
> under WOT and full load (i.e. 3rd or 4th gear). But I took several runs I
> made and always got the same results. Of course, the less resolution I took,
> the flatter the curve got.
>
> As said, I'll do "real" measures, although the data used to calculate boost
> IS real, and I will compare the results. I just hope that I'll be able to
> record rpm too soon :)
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
>
> PS: Damn, it's hard to explain this stuff not in my language so please bear
> with me when I use the wrong words or longer senstences to draw a picture.
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:25:59 -0500
From: "Greg S." <wizards@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Motor Oil

I'm with you John ... I've read a couple of experts say that the single BEST
thing the typical driver can do to preserve the life of their vehicle is change
the oil and change it often.  Several have said that if you wanted to go to the
time and expensive of changing your oil and filter every single day, the engine
would virtually never wear out.  Now changing the oil daily is far from
practical, but it does support what you've said about the pit crews.

With modern synthetic oils, thermal breakdown is virtually irrelevant today, but
even the best filter on the market isn't going to completely remove all of the
contaminants, metal particles, etc. that accumulate in the oil .... and those
contaminants are certainly not helping the engine any.  As an example, look at
your oil when brand new and after it's been used ... something is turning it
into that black-as-night liquid, because it certainly doesn't look that way
going in ... ta dah contaminants.  Consumers Reports says that any name brand
synthetic will last virtually forever, but for the longest engine life, it
should be changed (with filter) every 7 - 8,000 miles.  I do (and almost
everyone I know) do them one better by changing it once every 2 - 3,000 miles.



"Basol, John" wrote:

> I'm aware they recommend changing the filter.  I find it extremely difficult
> to believe that it does not get dirty, even with frequent filter changes.  I
> do find it easily acceptable to create a lubricant that can maintain film
> strength for extended periods of time.  It's simply the dirt issue I can't
> overlook.  Perhaps I am too old school, but the extremely small financial,
> and time investment into oil changes just doesn't seem to outweigh the risk
> involved, in my mind anyway.  I've rarely heard professional pit crews say
> "Gee, if only we hadn't changed the oil so often."  The few
> semi-professional teams I know change oil after every event.  Perhaps that
> is a bit drastic, but I bet they look at it the same way I do....cheap
> insurance.
>
> John Basol
> Wasting oil all over the place  :-)


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:20:36 -0500
From: sjc0u812@juno.com
Subject: Team3S: Pardon the intrusion...

Sad news race fans:

Adam Petty, 19 year old son of Kyle, was killed today at NH Motorspeedway
during practice for qualification.  As you know, the patriarch, Lee, just
passed on too.  Very sad.

Best,

SJ
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:42:34 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel bearings?

Welcome aboard Martin,

On the VR4's, and maybe the normally aspirated models as well, the front
bearings are in a hub assembly and cannot be tightened.  They cost about $60 per
side from one of the discount parts dealers (I'll forward a list to you
privately) and should be easy to replace for a do-it-yourselfer.  There should
be no where near 1/2 inch play in your wheel.  You should also grab at 9 and 3
O'clock.  If you have the same amount of play, it probably is the bearings.  If
the play is only noticable when grabbing at the 6 and 12 O'clock positions, It
might be the ball joints in which case you'll have to replace the whole A-arm
assemblies at about $220 per side.  I can't believe the alignment tech did not
mention this too you!  I'd hesitate going back there for an alignment if they
can't detect major wheel play.

Good luck,
Ken

> I am fairly new to the list and got my first 3k GTO a couple of weeks ago so please bear with me if this subject has been covered.
> I am getting quite a violent wobble from the front wheels upon braking at high speed.
> I have had the wheels balanced and the four wheel alignment checked which is well within the tolerance settings.
> The pads look OK but I am not sure about the rotors, but one thing I did notice is that when I had the wheels up off the ground I grabbed the wheel at 6 and 12 O'clock and there is about half an inch of play.
> Is this normal? or can I tighten this up with the centre nut and to what torque?
> Or do you think that the bearings need replacing?
> Is this a big job such as needing a press or something.
> Sorry for all these questions but I don't have a manual of any sort so I can't look up the info.

- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:55:16 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger on a '95?

> I know that it doesn't plug into the OBD-II style connector, and I know that OBD-II tools don't work on the ECU, even though it has an OBD-II connector (I tried anyways, despite what people said - mostly because I am desperate to have datalogging).
>
> My question is:  Has anyone tried to graft an OBD-II connector (connecing the proper pins) onto a TMO Datalogger and get it to talk to the OBD-I ECU, and was it successful or not?

There was a small thread last November about this.  Apparently the '94-'95 cars
are not OBD I or OBD II, but some hybrid.  Most likely, just a connector will
not do the trick.

What needs to be done is someone with experience comparable to Todd Day has to
get in and do the software.  It really shouldn't be too hard as long as the
'94-'95 protocol can be obtained.
- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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End of team3s V1 #134
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