team3s
Thursday, April 27
2000 Volume 01
: Number
118
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:09:00 -0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Time to re-tire
I forgot to add..that if as a team we can get
70+ runs on a set of Kumhos on the
VR4 in _extremely_ competative/spirited
AutoX in local and regional style
courses, you should be able to get four
events in a year out of those _very_
easily, if not four events for two
years.
:-----Original Message-----
:From: Jim Berry [
mailto:fastmax@home.com]
:Sent: Wednesday,
April 26, 2000 5:58 PM
:To: Mohler, Jeff
:Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st;
Merritt
:Subject: Re: Team3S: Time to re-tire
:
:
:What do you
recommend --- I don't plan on autoX but I do plan
:on 4 or more
:open
track events per year ????????
:
:Jim
Berry
:===============================================
:> Yes, and so
am I...both talking the AutoX tire.
:>
:> The more heavy the car Im
seeing, the more im not seeing the
:BFG's on em.
:>
:> >
===================================================
:>
:> > Lots
of ppl swear by the GF, and more swear AT them.
:> >
:> > Way
too expensive, and have little/no feedback at the edge
:of
traction.
:> >
:> > I really dont see a long life for the GF
in a heavy car.
:> >
:> > . .
============================================
:>
:> I'm talking
about the R compound race tire --- Tire rack sez
:$165 w/o the heat
:>
cycle option. This of
:> course is not a street tire although it is DOT
approved.
:>
:> Jim Berry
:>
:>
:> ***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
:
:
:***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
:
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:03:11 -0700
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Time to re-tire
I personally like the Kumho V700, and other
like the Ao32R as well.
:-----Original Message-----
:From: Jim Berry
[
mailto:fastmax@home.com]
:Sent:
Wednesday, April 26, 2000 5:58 PM
:To: Mohler, Jeff
:Cc:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st;
Merritt
:Subject: Re: Team3S: Time to re-tire
:
:
:What do you
recommend --- I don't plan on autoX but I do plan
:on 4 or more
:open
track events per year ????????
:
:Jim
Berry
:===============================================
:> Yes, and so
am I...both talking the AutoX tire.
:>
:> The more heavy the car Im
seeing, the more im not seeing the
:BFG's on em.
:>
:> >
===================================================
:>
:> > Lots
of ppl swear by the GF, and more swear AT them.
:> >
:> > Way
too expensive, and have little/no feedback at the edge
:of
traction.
:> >
:> > I really dont see a long life for the GF
in a heavy car.
:> >
:> > . .
============================================
:>
:> I'm talking
about the R compound race tire --- Tire rack sez
:$165 w/o the heat
:>
cycle option. This of
:> course is not a street tire although it is DOT
approved.
:>
:> Jim Berry
:>
:>
:> ***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
:
:
:***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
:
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 26 Apr 2000 20:47:21 -0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Time to re-tire
At 06:03 PM 4/26/00 -0700, Mohler, Jeff
wrote:
>I personally like the Kumho V700, and other like the Ao32R as
well.
>
Jeff says he gets 70-80 autocross runs out of a set, but
that's -- at the
most -- 70-80 miles. Very few autocross runs are more than a
mile, and
events are mandated NOT to exceed 70 mph. Each run is about
two minutes,
mostly in 1st and 2nd. On the other hand, autocrosses are
extremely
violent, and just rip the guts out of a tire. Cornering forces
are WAY up
there, at well over 1G. Cars are set up differently, too.
Jeff runs
positive toe in the back to induce oversteer, because you want the
car to
be loose on a 'cross. He is literally THROWING the car from one turn
to the
next, smoking the tires, and letting the AWD pull him through
corners.
Jeff's autocross Kumhos are probably super sticky and very tough to
take
all this.
At an open track event, we don't experience the
violence of an autocross,
but we put plenty of stress on the tires. Cornering
and drifting at 100+
and standing on the brakes at 100 mph is pretty tough on
tires, too. And we
run much, much longer. On a weekend, we get --at the most
-- five 20 minute
runs on Saturday and five 20 minute runs on Sunday, or 200
minutes, or more
than three hours of track time, at speeds up to 150 mph (the
most I've seen
is somewhere near 140, at Road America coming into Canada
Corner, but I'm
still stock-engined. I bet Jack T hits 150 at RA). Even
at a modest 60 mph
average, that's 200 miles of track time per event. Times
four events,
that's 800+ miles out of a set.
This is why you can't go
by what autocrossers recommend for an on-track
tire. They are totally
different conditions.
I have asked the tire question on two race forums
now, and no one has given
me a reason to change from my Yoko A0323R tires. I
think I'll order me
another set.
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Time to re-tire
Merrit:
You can NOT judge 80 miles of
AutoX, to 80 miles of open track events..a
rough and tumble autox is much
harder on the tire than open course.
Lots more scrubbing, abusive
launches, gravel to score away crap..and more
hard braking in a more severe
turning angle...and worse of all, we all
know how race tires scrub away more
when theyre not up to full temps..like
you rarely are in most autox
miles.
Im not sayin at all that autox wear is all that much harder than
course
wear, but to compare the mileage differences isnt fair. Weve
gotten
easily 2-3x what we would have on a BFG.
. . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
1995 Mitsu.
VR4
Plate: SPDTOY 2* 13.2@107
2000 Celica
GT-S
Plate: SPDTOY 3* 14.9@96Mph
1987 Supra
Turbo
Plate: SPDTOY 1* 13.38@104Mph
-
---------------------------------------------------
K&N FIPK,Spearco
IC,APEXi N1 Exhaust*,Custom Hardpipe Kit,Walbro Fuel Pump,
Custom
Aluminum-Alloy Flywheel,RC 3mm Overbore Throttle Body,
Mueller Lightweight
Driveshaft*,HKS Downpipe*Lightweight Main Pulley**,
Full Redline Synthetic
Oils & WW,AEM Cam Gear (Intake)*,Dave Hall AFPR,
Greddy Type-S
BOV,Lightewight 16x8" Racing Wheels,HKS FCD,Greddy EGT Guage,
ST Swaybar
Set,Eibach Pro Spring Set,Tokico-II TEMS Struts,
APEXi (new) AVC-R,Broward
Dual-Friction Clutch*,BM150 Electric Fan
Porterfield Heat/Cryo treated
Rotors, crossdrilled*,Porterfield R4-S Pads*,
Full DOT 5.1 Brake
fluid,Goodridge SS Brake lines,Dunlop SP8000 tires.
Yes..all this on a stock
HG too @75-80lbs..I ferget.
+++
* On order
** Being
developed
On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, Merritt wrote:
> At 06:03 PM
4/26/00 -0700, Mohler, Jeff wrote:
> >I personally like the Kumho V700,
and other like the Ao32R as well.
> >
>
> Jeff says he
gets 70-80 autocross runs out of a set, but that's -- at the
> most --
70-80 miles. Very few autocross runs are more than a mile, and
> events
are mandated NOT to exceed 70 mph. Each run is about two minutes,
>
mostly in 1st and 2nd. On the other hand, autocrosses are extremely
>
violent, and just rip the guts out of a tire. Cornering forces are WAY
up
> there, at well over 1G. Cars are set up differently, too. Jeff
runs
> positive toe in the back to induce oversteer, because you want the
car to
> be loose on a 'cross. He is literally THROWING the car from one
turn to the
> next, smoking the tires, and letting the AWD pull him
through corners.
> Jeff's autocross Kumhos are probably super sticky and
very tough to take
> all this.
>
> At an open track event, we
don't experience the violence of an autocross,
> but we put plenty of
stress on the tires. Cornering and drifting at 100+
> and standing on the
brakes at 100 mph is pretty tough on tires, too. And we
> run much, much
longer. On a weekend, we get --at the most -- five 20 minute
> runs on
Saturday and five 20 minute runs on Sunday, or 200 minutes, or more
> than
three hours of track time, at speeds up to 150 mph (the most I've seen
>
is somewhere near 140, at Road America coming into Canada Corner, but
I'm
> still stock-engined. I bet Jack T hits 150 at RA). Even at a
modest 60 mph
> average, that's 200 miles of track time per event. Times
four events,
> that's 800+ miles out of a set.
>
> This is
why you can't go by what autocrossers recommend for an on-track
> tire.
They are totally different conditions.
>
> I have asked the tire
question on two race forums now, and no one has given
> me a reason to
change from my Yoko A0323R tires. I think I'll order me
> another set.
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>
> ***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:17:44 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Time to re-tire
Reread the original post -- that's exactly what he
said. Apples and
oranges.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> Merrit:
>
> You can NOT judge 80 miles
of AutoX, to 80 miles of open track events..a
> rough and tumble autox is
much harder on the tire than open course.
>
> Lots more scrubbing,
abusive launches, gravel to score away crap..and more
> hard braking in a
more severe turning angle...and worse of all, we all
> know how race tires
scrub away more when theyre not up to full temps..like
> you rarely are in
most autox miles.
>
> Im not sayin at all that autox wear is all
that much harder than course
> wear, but to compare the mileage
differences isnt fair. Weve gotten
> easily 2-3x what we would have
on a BFG.
> > Jeff says he gets 70-80 autocross runs out of a
set, but that's
> -- at the
> > most -- 70-80 miles. Very few
autocross runs are more than a mile, and
> > events are mandated NOT to
exceed 70 mph. Each run is about
> two minutes,
> > mostly
in 1st and 2nd. On the other hand, autocrosses are extremely
> >
violent, and just rip the guts out of a tire. Cornering forces
> are
WAY up
> > there, at well over 1G. Cars are set up differently, too.
Jeff runs
> > positive toe in the back to induce oversteer, because you
want
> the car to
> > be loose on a 'cross. He is literally
THROWING the car from one
> turn to the
> > next, smoking the
tires, and letting the AWD pull him through corners.
> > Jeff's
autocross Kumhos are probably super sticky and very tough to take
> >
all this.
> >
> > At an open track event, we don't experience
the violence of an
> autocross,
> > but we put plenty of stress
on the tires. Cornering and drifting at 100+
> > and standing on the
brakes at 100 mph is pretty tough on tires,
> too. And we
> > run
much, much longer. On a weekend, we get --at the most --
> five 20
minute
> > runs on Saturday and five 20 minute runs on Sunday, or
200
> minutes, or more
> > than three hours of track time, at
speeds up to 150 mph (the
> most I've seen
> > is somewhere near
140, at Road America coming into Canada
> Corner, but I'm
> >
still stock-engined. I bet Jack T hits 150 at RA). Even at a
>
modest 60 mph
> > average, that's 200 miles of track time per event.
Times four events,
> > that's 800+ miles out of a set.
>
>
> > This is why you can't go by what autocrossers recommend for an
on-track
> > tire. They are totally different conditions.
>
>
> > I have asked the tire question on two race forums now, and
no
> one has given
> > me a reason to change from my Yoko A0323R
tires. I think I'll order me
> > another set.
> >
> >
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
> >
> > ***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
>
>
>
> ***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:10:39 -0400
From: "Shawn Dewey" <
sdewey@dmv.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE:
Racing, VR4 Road course
good to see you are back at it Dr. T.
I
leave today with RX-7 in tow for the first race of the season in
the
Northeast. Will be contending the entire MARRS (Mid-Atlantic Road
Racing
series) series hoping for some victories in the hotly contested Spec
RX-7
series. We start 30+ Spec cars each race, all identically
prepared;
supposedly :)
http://www.wdcr-scca.orgDoing the 12
hour endurance race again this year with a team of 3 RX-7's
hoping for a
class victory if not overall.
Will post results when I return.
-
-shawn dewey
'95 Talon ESi #19 SSC
'81 Mazda RX-7 GSL #32 Spec RX7
'93
Mitsubishi 3KGT VR-4
'91 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
http://home.dmv.com/~sdewey-
-----Original Message-----
My 1994 VR4 did very well (as the 93 used to
:)
I was surprised how well the stock 94+ brakes worked with
stock pads
(initially) but not full straight blasts...
and I never got passed...first
day was dry and fast; 2nd
day was wet, rainy and eating everybody alive with
the
AWD! The Vipers mostly stayed home that 2nd day
due to rain
(waaaah) but in my rungroup, the neat red
GTS with white stripes was fun to
play with. Naturally
tried to see if I was REALLY hanging with him
for
awhile...then had to let me by (was getting rude how
long it took him
to admit it) and then it was
Sayonara, Viper-San!
ehehheeehehhehehheheh
Vipers.
Boy, do they look
cool.
Finally, worthy opponents.
Jack Tertadian
"I'm
Back"
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:26:25 -0500
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Camber Plates are in!
VERY LONG POST
We installed my
Ground Control camber plates today.
Here's a report.
COST
Work
was done at Denny's Muffler in Cedar Rapids, Ohio. It took five hours
to
install the plates and do a four-wheel alignment. They charged me for
only
four hours because we had to do a lot of head-scratching.Total cost
was
$189.00 (including tax). Now that they've been through an installation,
the
next one should take much less time.
INSTALLING THE PLATES
Not
terribly difficult, but time consuming. It involves removing the top
parts of
the stock struts (the big round plate in the engine compartment,
plus the
matching upper spring perch, plus the bump stop) and replacing
them with GC
parts. I haven't weighed the parts box, but it seems like
about 7-10 lb of
steel came off and was replaced by about a lb or so of
hardened steel and
aluminum.
With the car on a frame lift and off the ground, dissassemble
the top of
the strut (three nuts, then the top strut nut), and let the strut
fall
away. Remove all the stock pieces from the strut, and install the new
GC
upper spring perch. Drill four holes to mount the plate. Assemble
the
caster plate. Bolt the caster plate assembly UNDER the lip of the top
strut
fender mount (I don't know what else to call it -- the big round hole
in
the fender). Adjust caster by sliding the plate forward and
back.
Insert the top of the strut into the spherical bearing on the
mounting
plate and let the car down (gently), guiding the strut up into the
plate.
Install the big nut on top of the strut. Adjust camber by sliding the
top
of the strut left or right within slots on the plate. (It will all
make
sense when you have one in sight)
The biggest problems
were:
1. Figuring out which direction to mount the plates. The GC
instructions
are no help. By examining the photo on amahoser's web
page
(
www.linkline.com/personal/amahoser),
comparing it to the GC instructions
and using some common sense (I hope --
see below) we decided that the
"fat" part of the plate should
go on the fender side (when you get a set,
you'll see what I mean).
(GC: If you are reading this, some simple arrows showing which way is
to
the front would help immensely)
2. Drilling the four holes to mount
the plate. This is very tricky, because
all sorts of sheet metal lips and
seams form obstacles to the bolts and
washers. You have to position the plate
JUST SO to find space to drill the
four holes.
GC supplies one shorter
bolt and one smaller washer -- which solve some
problems -- but in the spirit
of their undecipherable instructions, they
don't say where to use them. We
figured it out by trial and error. We had
to elongate some of the plate
mounting holes later, because the plate
didn't want to slide forward and back
properly when the strut was in place.
Once we made the holes a little bigger,
the plate slid ok.
3. Low, low, low! When you take out the bump
stop and stock strut top
plates, it lowers the car another 2.5 inch or
so! When we took it off the
lift, we knew it was going to be lower, but
we didn't realize it would be
looking for a hole in the ground! I drove
it down the street and back to
"set" the suspension and I was
scraping the pavement on every bump. Getting
it onto the alignment rack was a
real treat, especially since I couldn't
even clear the concrete lip getting
into the garage! We had to use steel
ramps.
Note: When you
install the camber plates, adjust the GC suspension for
another 1-2 inches of
ground clearance just so you can drive it to the
alignment rack.
4.
Clearing the electrical plug. The GC plate lets the strut
protrude
higher into the engine compartment, lifting the ECS electrical
connection
about 3/4 of an inch, dangerously close to the hood. We put a dab
of grease
on the connector and gingerly closed the hood to check clearance.
It
clears, but barely. I won't be slamming the hood closed in the future.
The round rubber strut covers no longer fit exactly, but we cobbled up
a
way to use two of the three mounting holes to keep the covers more or
less
in their assigned places.
SETTING THE ALIGNMENT
First thing
was to adjust the ride height so both sides were identical.
This is easy to
do with the GC adjustable suspension. Both sides are 26 in.
from the ground
to the fender lip, one inch lower than before. (I am
wondering if this is too
low).
I wanted to set the alignment to a street setting of -1 deg
(negative)
camber, +0.15 deg (positive) toe and maximum castor. We got the
camber and
toe OK, but the caster would only go to +4.5 deg, just one deg
more than
stock specs. I can get more if I'm willing to cut sheet metal to
allow more
room for adjustments, but I thought I'd ask the group here
first.
Q: Any of you that have the GC plates: How much caster did
you get? If you
got more than 4.5 deg, what do you think we did wrong? Is
there any chance
we put the plate in backwards? Do we need more than 4.5 deg
of caster?
My original plan was to mark the street settings (somehow) and
then move it
to race settings of -2.5 deg camber with +0.15 toe, and mark
those. That
way, I thought, I could drive to the track on the street
settings, jack it
up, and adjust the camber and toe to the race setting (by
hitting the
marks). Afterward, I'd change it back.
No way, Jose. My
alignment guy said it would be nearly impossible to
accomplish this trackside
unless I had a complete lift available, or REALLY
knew what I was doing. Even
if I could get it to work good enough for track
use, it would require another
4-wheel alignment when I got back home. He
says I couldn't possibly hit the
marks perfectly without an alignment
machine. If any of you racers have
done this successfully, I'd like to
hear how you do it. Watching him fiddle
with all the adjustments for over
an hour convinced me he is right.
I'm going to try the street settings at an autocross on Sunday. Sometime
in
May, we'll rent the Marshalltown gokart track (with all my ROWG
friends)
and do some serious track testing. One of my buddies has a
pyrometer, and
we'll measure tire temperature profiles to see how the -1 deg
camber
setting works. If I need more negative camber, I'll go back to Denny's
and
try it again.
DOING IT YOURSELF
Not recommended. I can't
imagine trying this without a full frame lift. But
don't let me stop you. It
was worth $189 to have the pros do it.
HOW DOES IT FEEL?
The car
feels "alive" now. It's hard to describe. It goes where you
point
it, and RIGHT NOW! It seems much tighter overall. It also feels
lighter
somehow. The proof is on the track, of course, and I'll keep you
posted of
the progress.
LINGERING QUESTIONS
I am not happy with
how far the strut protrudes into the bracket. It seems
like there should be a
bump stop or a fat washer or SOMETHING to take out
that extra 3/4 of an inch
and keep the ECS connector safer. Also, maybe if
the top of the strut was a
little lower, we could get more caster adjustment.
I was ripping off
brake cooling ducts at the 27 in. ride height, and now
I'm at 26 in., thanks
to the camber plates. Looks like there is no way to
get cooling ducts under
the car now. There is another one inch of ride
height left in the GC
adjustment, and I think that I'll put that back in
next time it goes on the
rack for an alignment. All suggestions on
increasing ride height with the
camber plates are welcome.
RECOMMENDATION
We need a how-to page
on suspension projects. This would have been really
tough without amahoser's
web site photo to guide us, because GC's
instructions are simply awful. I
hope that these pointers will help the
next list member install the plates,
and somewhere along the line a
web-knowledgeable person will do the install
with a digital camera and
record all the key steps. Installing camber plates
--when you know what you
are doing or have a good guide -- probably takes an
hour a side, plus an
alignment.
PLUG FOR DENNY'S MUFFLER
These
guys are amazing! They just love to work on my car. On this project,
we had
three guys conferring on how to do it (the manager, the alignment
guy, and
the suspension guy). I just stood back and was thankful that I
didn't have to
figure it out. They do all my suspension and brake work,
they do a very nice
job, they are reasonably priced, and they let me watch
and kibitz. I highly
recommend them for anyone in Iowa, Missouri, Illinois,
Wisconsin or Minnesota
who is tired of getting ripped off by their local
shops. Cedar Rapids is only
four hours from Mnpls, St. Louis, Chicago,
Omaha, Milwaukee and similar
cities. If you need brake or suspension work,
call them at 319/363-5245, and
ask for Mike or Shelby. Tell 'em Rich sent
you.
Good luck to the next
guy who does camber plates. Hope all this helps.
Rich/old poop/94
VR4
Ground Control adjustable suspension with Eibach springs and camber
plates,
lowered 2.5 in.front, 1.5 in. rear.
Brad's Big Red Porsche Turbo
calipers, Pagid Black pads, SS lines, Racer's
Blue fluid.
Yoko A032R
tires.
Stock engine with K&N.
***Info:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
------------------------------
End
of team3s V1 #118
*********************