team3s
Wednesday, February 9
2000 Volume 01 :
Number
054
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:20:13 -0500
From: "Michael Booker" <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Team3S: A/F
ratio data for NA cars.
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I have been doing some tests with my A/F gauge installed
on my R/T NA, =
and the results look promising. At WOT, I am getting voltages
(from the =
gauge, these data will be backed up with Voltgauge numbers soon)
ranging =
from .8-1.0. This looks to be rich enough to lean out with some
type of =
fuel controller. Anybody out there well versed on O2 sensor data
and =
give me some info about what the voltages mean, how lean can/should I
=
go, what is the best air/fuel controller, etc.=20
Matt
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0
Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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5.00.2919.6307"
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<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have
been doing some tests with my =
A/F gauge=20
installed on my R/T NA, and
the results look promising. At WOT, I am =
getting=20
voltages (from the
gauge, these data will be backed up with Voltgauge =
numbers=20
soon)
ranging from .8-1.0. This looks to be rich enough to lean out with
=
some=20
type of fuel controller. Anybody out there well versed on O2
sensor data =
and=20
give me some info about what the voltages mean, how
lean can/should I =
go, what=20
is the best air/fuel controller, etc.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial
size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:29:29
-0800
From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell" <
benson@2015.com>
Subject: Team3S: A/F
ratio data for NA cars.
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There's a fuel controller from GTPro (they say they
have one for NA cars as
well as turbo cars). I've heard a lot of good
feedback on this unit, and
I'm sure there are quite a few people here on the
list that either have one
or know people who do. So they can hopefully
provide some good consumer
experience on it :).
Latuh fuh
U,
Benson
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:18:28
-0600
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: ARC vs VPC/AFC
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Roger said:
> A very strange statement,
there is absolutely no need to tune
> any curve at the rpm points. I
agree with a little fine
> tuning as the ARC has only 2% steps and I wish
to have 1%
> steps for the fine tuning. The AFC never ever can provide
the
> same capabilities as an ARC or how does this thing measure
>
the load and higher airflow.
How does the ARC measure "load"
differently than the AFC or VPC, and why is the ARC method advantageous?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "load" in this
case.
Errin said:
> I've only seen the PMS selling for about
$1000US. Datalogging
> aside, lack of ability to tune the timing
curve is a major
> deficiency.
PMS does do tuning of timing.
In fact, it does it much better than any other controller that I've seen (other
than the Halltech, which I have no experience with). I had a PMS on my '93
Eclipse GSX and had good results with it. Not only can you set timing
advance (or retard) to different values in different RPM bands, as well as
throttle positions, you can set a correction factor based upon how much boost is
currently entering the motor as measured on the PMS MAP sensor. You can
also adjust timing based upon whether NO2 is currently being injected into the
motor since you can set up the PMS to see the activation signal of the NO2
solenoid. I guess that's irrelevant to this discussion though, as PMS
doesn't exist for 3/S cars.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:02:04
-0800
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: ARC vs VPC/AFC
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Matt Jannusch wrote:
> Errin
said:
>
> > I've only seen the PMS selling for about
$1000US. Datalogging
> > aside, lack of ability to tune the
timing curve is a major deficiency.
>
> PMS does do tuning of
timing.
Exactly. I was referring to the ARC, not the PMS, in
my
second sentence. :) I guess I didn't make that
clear.
> In fact, it does it much better than any other controller
that I've seen
> (other than the Halltech, which I have no experience
with).
The only other non-standalone-unit I can think of which
tunes
timing is the Apexi ITC which seems a fairly dangerous device
to use
for this purpose. Overall, if you're going to seriously
play with
timing, you're best off doing it with a standalone unit.
A friend of mine
runs the PMS in his '95 Eclipse, but he only
bumps the timing a couple
degrees when he hits the track. Still,
he really likes the unit and the
datalogging capabilities.
> I guess that's irrelevant to this
discussion though, as PMS doesn't
> exist for 3/S cars.
Still,
I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to adapt to our cars.
According to
Roger, it has been done before, and Mike modifies
the VPC to work with 2nd
gens.
- --Errin
Seattle
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:34:57
+0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S:
KnockLink (long)
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Hi Team,
For a long time now I have been looked for an engine
management system to
use on my VR-4. The ARC and VPC etc was disqualified
because they are "piggy
backs" and that is not good enough (IMHO).
After talking with tons off
people I bought a Haltech E6K.
The only
draw back with this system is that it don't have any knock control
(most
after market systems don't).
I have found a knock device called KnockLink
and would like to ask what you
guys think of such device. (It cost ~220$
including sensor)
Here is what LINK say about the KnockLink: (Also look
at the small included
pic)
-
------------------------------------
Knocking is the self detonation of the
unburned fuel in the combustion
chamber toward the end of combustion. The
flame burns around ten times
faster than normal, causing huge
pressures.
Most modern engines will already have a knock sensor fitted as
standard, but
any type of knock sensor may be fitted as required. The sensor
is normally
screwed into a boss on the engine block although some prefer to
fit the
sensor in the inlet manifold. In either case, the sensor must be in
such a
position that block vibrations are coupled to the
sensor.
Assuming the engine is operating correctly, the LED's will show
only
background noise which will rise in proportion to engine power output.
Any
abrupt rise in signal level at any time is an indication that detonation
is
occurring. The immediate remedy is to close the throttle. Severe
detonation
will destroy any engine in seconds.
Possible cures for
knocking are: cooler intake air, increased intake
humidity, reduce load,
increase RPM, enrich or lean engine from lambda
stoichiometric, improve
spark, increase octane level of fuel, reduce total
ignition advance,
etc...
The KnockLink allows you to monitor engine noise. Optimise advance
for
maximum power and/or economy safely. Detect damage before audible noise
is
heard. Mechanical advance or programmed engine compatible. Can be
fitted
permanently or temporarily to check.
Regards
Mikael
Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nuMitsubishi
3000GT VR-4, 93
Subaru Impreza WRC, 00
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3e5+d0AAADs=
-
------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF7228.872265E0--
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:51:37
-0500 (EST)
From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: 30k Service
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for
more info.***
Hey guys, my car is up to 23.5k miles and I am planning
a cross country
trip (Boston to San Fran). I was wondering if I should do the
30k maint
before or after the trip. I know I am due for an oil change before
the
trip (using Mobil 1). The car has been inspected at 14k miles (when
I
bought the car I had it checked out) and oil changes with synthetic
every
3.5k miles.
How much does the 30k run? The reason I am asking is
because I need to get
a replacement rim for my damaged one and thats going to
run me $400. Going
to be be unemployed for a couple of weeks while in transit
:)
Thanks
PS I'm planning on taking my car to Danvers
Mits
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:32:02
-0800
From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell"
<benson@2015.com>
Subject: Team3S: 30k Service
***This is the
NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
I just had mine
performed about a month ago and it ran me $430. I'm in
Tulsa OK, mind
you so take price differences due to location as a factor as
well
:).
Latuh fuh U,
Benson
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:11:00
-0500
From: "Michael Booker" <mrbook@gate.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Hotter/colder plugs
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message
end for more info.***
Is there any need to use a hotter or colder
plug for an NA car? What does
"Hot" or "cold" mean when
it comes to plugs? Thanks
Matt
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:20:59
+0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: ARC vs VPC/AFC
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end
for more info.***
> How does the ARC measure "load"
differently than the AFC or VPC, and why
is the ARC method
advantageous? I'm not sure I understand what you mean
by
"load" in this case.
The amount of air sucked in during
an specific time is also a part of the
engine load. The AFC simply tweaks the
stock signal and alters it rpm wise.
Unfortunately, at 4000 and a setting of
-10% the signal is (simply said)
lowered 10% regardingless of the load.
Therefore this can be too much at
partial load but ok at full
load.
> I guess that's irrelevant to this discussion though, as PMS
doesn't exist
for 3/S cars.
I agree due to the fact that one tried to
adapt it to our cars and PMS
thought that there is not a large enough market
for our cars.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:15:29
+0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Fuel Injector questions...
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See
message end for more info.***
> Agreed. Total airflow for a
pair of 9Bs will be less than the 520 cfm
> projected at redline with a
full head of steam.
I'd say it is 380cfm each ... has anyone the map
?
> The TPS also will dump fuel in varying amounts. At low
angles of opening
> and low changes in opening, a small amount of fuel is
added to enrich the
> mixture temporarily. This is similar to the
old style accelerator pump.
At
> high openings and rapid changes above
a certain angle (I do not know what
it
> is, Roger's value of 50% seems
reasonable) and with RPMs above a certain
> threshold, the ECU will simply
start dumping as much fuel as possible. At
> WOT above a certain RPM
this is also the case -- dump fuel as fast as the
> sytem will
deliver.
The 50% is just what I saw in the logs and the fact that the
injector
opening time got increased then.
What I do not understand is
why then the values jump around on the fuel maps
even at WOT ? If it would
dump in fuel as much as possible why is then the
injector time still
adjusted. My datalogs simply show thet the ECU is still
doing something on
the map at WOT !
> As to the stock MAS, at 600 cfm or so the counting
system loses accuracy
and
> starts missing beats. The ECU is
actually told that less air is flowing
> than there really is
present. This for me was another motivation for
going
> to a
different style of meter whether it actually flows better or not.
Yep, I
fully agree !!
> The MAF I now have (from TRE) is supposedly
calibrated up to 900 cfm.
That
> is far in excess of the amount of HP
I'll ever make. Also, the flow
numbers
> (which I do not have)
are supposedly superior to that of the stock MAS.
> This is not hard to
believe when you consider that the TRE MAF is
literally
> a virtually
unrestricted tube of aluminum large enough that the average
male
> can
fit their fist into ;). Don't start a car equipped with one of
these
> without an air filter and small animals around. The family
cat might end
up
> being blown out through the exhaust.
LOL, yep
and also do not wonder where the Orange has been gone the little
girl had in
her hands when you revved up the engine, hehe. With the ARC the
good thing is
that it is getting sliced, haha.
> I am not convinced the ignition is
"weak". It may not be adequate for
> doubling the rated
HP, but I don't know how it is inherently weak.
Pushing
> 21-30 psi
through a cylinder and expecting a 0.045" gapped plug to
fire
with
> pretty much any stock ignition would be optimistic at
best. Maybe some
> manufacturers overbuild their ignitions and
Mitsubishi didn't. *shrug*
Again, I fully agreee with your
statement. Ignitions for the 300ZX and the
Supras are really better IMHO. I
hope to be able to connect the DIS-4 the
next weekend for first
tests.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 22:04:43
+0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: ARC vs VPC/AFC
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message
end for more info.***
> > Whoever wrote this had no idea of
what he speaks about !
>
> I'm not offended by this statement, but I
would prefer that you talk to
> me directly rather than in third person
style. :)
Sorry, but this was one of the crossposts between the
lists and it was not
visible who sent the original statement that was quoted.
It's always better
to be able to identify people so we know what's behind the
sunglasses, hehe.
You know I didn't want to offend anybody ;-)
>
What I've written is based on information I've gathered from Barry
>
King's old posts as well as from speaking to Jack Tertadian (you
> already
know his accomplishments) and Mike Mahaffey (modifies
> VPC for 2nd gens,
sells the ARC, set up the fastest no-NOS VR4).
The biggest problems with
the ARC appear when the TPS is not adjusted. I
runned into the same problem
and today the most problems are eliminated and
there is only a small annoying
problem that I'll have solved too soon.
> 1) The ARC-GP2 does not
allow you to ~actively~ modify the curve
> by which fuel is delivered over
the rpm range, whether at high or low
> throttle. The GCC and AFC
allow you to do this, and so did the
> unfortunately now defunct TRE MASC
unit.
Correct, you can add a GCC or AFC at any time .. there is just no
need !
> 2) The ARC-GP2 does not have specific chips which are tailor
made
> for certain injector sizes. You simply turn a knob to
"choose" your
> injector. This is different than the
VPC.
And a big advantage ! I can adjust with simple knobs and the do not
have to
get chips programmed and reprogrammed for a simple change like
gutting the
cats. For bigger injectors, I simply turn dow the low and the
high knobs.
> 3) If 1 and 2 are correct, then the ARC is no better
than having a
> VPC ~without~ a GCC, a setup which most people find
extremely
> impractical once you go to ~larger~ than stock injectors and
turbos.
The settings and way you tune the fuel curve is different on both
units. And
simply said, yes, it is nothing like a VPC but it offers much
better
driveability without using a GCC ... it's just not needed
!
> 4) Allegedly, build quality is an issue with the ARC. It
might not
> hold up as well over time as the HKS or Apexi units.
I
run it since August/September 99... absolutely no problems, very
good
quality. It saw rain, snow, standing outside at -15°C, three
different air
filters for testing including water due to a popped up hood
while driving in
rain (the Apexi filter was damn wet :()) I think this tells
much more than
any unprooven wordings. I opened the unit several time to male
small
modifications and as an EE I can say that wuality is very good ... this
is
fact ! Oh, by the way, I made 10k miles since then ... is this enough
to
proove quality or not ?
> Right, but I'm not sure many people
are interested in paying $1000
> just for an 83mm flow meter. That's
why I've been asking about the
> possibility of getting somebody (maybe
even Split Second) to produce
> the bigger MAS just by itself. Barry
King was talking about this a
> long time ago on Starnet.
And how
do you control bigger injectors ? You are paying the money (yes, it
is
expensive !) for the MAF AND the ARC unit.. So you are getting more than
you
say, right ?
> The AFC and ARC are both piggyback units. The
only difference
> is that the ARC utilizes its own larger airflow
meter. Other than that,
> the ARC has no inherent advantages over
the AFC since the AFC
> simply modifies signals sent by the stock
MAS. The AFC has
> ~many~ features which the ARC does not have
including the ability
> to actively tune your fuel curve.
No,
simply wrong. Guys, I have the old and the new AFC units installed and
used.
Of course the AFC2 is also reading the TPS and allows mapping but this
made
tuning not easier :( The MAJOR difference is that the ARC adjusts fuel
due to
the amount of air that is really flowing. It also allows the user to
adjust
for the speed the airflow increases (rising rate). This especially is
a cause
for the hick-ups the VPCs have under heavy load when opening the
throttle but
there is no real rpm increase (driving in 5th up the hill). The
wording
"actively tune the fuel curve" is a marketing like statement
that
says ... really nothing. Or do you say the engine load is the same in
1st at
5000 like in 4th at the same rpm ... no it isn't and therefore the
rpm-wise
setting is just not accurate ! Oh I can actively tune my fuel curve
with my
right foot or I have four knobs to actively tune the ARC.
>
This tuning is rpm instead of airflow based, but it seems to be
sufficient
> since it is simply modifying signals from the MAS and the map
is semi-3D
> (has high and low throttle maps). It has worked well
for many many fast
> reliable setups here in the U.S. as well as
Japan.
The jump between the maps was a problem and we disabled this. You
are only
speakign of a track setup where it can be tuned in for the quarter
mile. I'm
sure it will work fine. But when driving around, cruising, driving
at
170mph, quick roads, circle tracks, the AFC must be retuned and
doesn't
deliver the proper settings.
> I've only seen the PMS
selling for about $1000US. Datalogging aside,
> lack of ability to
tune the timing curve is a major deficiency.
The timing curve doesn't
help a lot on our cars. The ECU tries to adjust
over the time and only
reprogramming the map helped.
> I think most of us are concerned with
the useability, tuneability,
> practicality, and reliability of these
systems when they are really
> being put to the real test, in other words
when they are used with
> larger injectors, turbos and fuel
pump.
Ok, I agree and I also had heard about others having ARC problems.
In my
case it was the TPS that I had to adjust and the idleing or dying
problem
went away. Maybe there is just a lack of knowledge around and I
simply
wonder why nobody is asking me in that cases. I thought some are
knowing
that I have the ARC since some months. Fuel pump is also already
upgraded on
my car (big Denso brown cap). Useabilty is good although my
personal
wishlist contains a range of 1% and not 2% settings. Same with
tuneability
but for sure I haven't installed larger injectors. The ones who
did have
reported the same problems after initial settings as they have not
been
familiar with the way the ARC works. Once I understud tuning was
easy.
Practicality is more an issue with larger injectors and turbos of
course.
Here I do not have any experience.
Errin, I understand that
you compiled information together that you got from
others. Fact is that one
has to understand how the ARC works and what the
four knobs really are doing.
If I see a need to tune the fuel curve rpm wise
I can simply add an AFC to
the output but nobody understands why an rpm wise
adjustement doesn't make
sense on the street. I agree with the track as the
conditions are always WOT.
I also agree using the AFC with a mild setup
difference where the ECU must be
tweaked to prevent super-rich situations.
But at a specific point the stock
airmeter is not delivering a good airflow
signal anymore as it is simply
running out of its range for what it was
originally built. This happens at
higher boost with 15g and then only a VPC
or ARC can be used as the input
signal to the AFC would see misses.
Finally, I was like the most,
verysceptical and very against the ARC and pro
VPC. I installed the VPC and
found a way do do my own chips. I runned the
car once and simply did not find
a way to tune it simply with the stock
injectors. I compiled many questions
together and went into a dialog with
Eric from SpitSecond and he answered all
my questions. I finally installed
the ARC and got it running with the stock
fuel stuff and different filters.
I tried any settings, made mbad experience
with the car dieing in traffic
and so on but after two days and restarting
from scratch I was successful
and even with temp differencies of about
45°C, no adjustments where
necessary. Over the time a light but annoying
problem appeared as the ECU
now shuts off the injectors when the throttle is
closed and a large vaccum
is seen in the manifold. The problem then appears
when the throttle is
slightly opened again and the injectors start spraying
more than the should.
This gives something like a little bang and I used to
live with this by
playing with the clutch a little more. This seems to be
related with the
very wet and cold weather we have here and together with
SplitSecond I'm
working on a solution.
Hope this clears up things
:)
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:35:43
CST
From: "Curt Gendron"
<curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hotter/colder
plugs
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more
info.***
Go to:
http://www.dsm.org/archives/1996/02/19960226.txt/8.html and read to
your
hearts content about spark plugs. Go to the part about "heat
ranges"
to answer your question.
Have I ever mentioned to the
list before how the DSM guys have alreay
figured out almost
everything? :)
later,
Curt
Join us at the Upper Midwest
Gathering. Go to:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html
for details.
>From: "Michael Booker"
<mrbook@gate.net>
>Reply-To: "Michael Booker"
<mrbook@gate.net>
>To:
<team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>Subject: Team3S: Hotter/colder
plugs
>Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:11:00 -0500
>
>***This is the
NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
>
>
>Is
there any need to use a hotter or colder plug for an NA car? What
does
>"Hot" or "cold" mean when it comes to plugs?
Thanks
>
>Matt
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:15:39
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Admin: A Quick FYI...
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See
message end for more info.***
Hey, All...,
We have just
implemented a feature of the Team3S list software which
allows us to reject
any message which is not sent to the list as
"text-only".
Yes, fonts and HTML are against our rules, but a
number of folks seem to
forget anyway, and post incorrectly. The
result of this is that the
next day's Digest version (and our
Archives) have unreadable sections (and
other negative effects).
If anyone forgets how to set up their email in
the
"internet-friendly" mode of "text only", please refer
to the email
'how-to' on our FAQ pages, under 'Basics', at:
www.stealth-3000gt.st/FAQ.htmThanks;
now back to our regularly scheduled program...
Best to
all,
Forrest
for the Admin
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------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#54
********************