team3s            Sunday, February 6 2000            Volume 01 : Number 052




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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:04:11 -0800
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Injector questions...

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Matt Jannusch wrote:

> Then how come nobody other than Jack has run 10's?  If it is so easy,

> then there should be more 3S cars in the 10's.  How can Mike say this

> if he hasn't done it himself?

This is getting off-topic, so I'm taking it off the list.

- --Errin



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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:30:39 -0500
From: "Pete Ryner" <pryner@ij.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: FW: Subject:  Vibration from differential???

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Also check the differential mounts (all 3) and the carrier bearings.   Had a
similar problem and all were bad.  Didn't catch it in time and the input
shaft on the differential started to leak.  Had to have the seal replaced
also.

Pete
91 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
[mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On Behalf Of Nickolaos M. Sgouros
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 7:31 PM
To: Team3s
Subject: Team3S: FW: Subject: Vibration from differential???

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Friends Hi:
I am an owner of a 92 Stealth RT/TT AWD,  AWS.
Lately I am getting a vibration from the  axle or from the rear
differential?? (some frient told me th look the engine suports)   Mostly
during the 1st, and 2nd  shifts between
2-3,000 rpm.
When I am accelerating hard it is worse. Feels like Goop Goop Goop
at  the
beginning  and after goes a  deep vibration.. If I continue pushing
and the
rpm increase more than 3k, 3rd 4th 5th 6th gear the car feels
normal...
Any good ideas?

Thank you

Nick Sgouros 92 Stealth RT/TT
Puerto Rico



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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:20:13 -0500
From: "Michael Booker" <mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Team3S: A/F ratio data for NA cars.

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF700E.06CB40E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been doing some tests with my A/F gauge installed on my R/T NA, =
and the results look promising. At WOT, I am getting voltages (from the =
gauge, these data will be backed up with Voltgauge numbers soon) ranging =
from .8-1.0. This looks to be rich enough to lean out with some type of =
fuel controller. Anybody out there well versed on O2 sensor data and =
give me some info about what the voltages mean, how lean can/should I =
go, what is the best air/fuel controller, etc.=20


Matt

- ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF700E.06CB40E0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have been doing some tests with my =
A/F gauge=20
installed on my R/T NA, and the results look promising. At WOT, I am =
getting=20
voltages (from the gauge, these data will be backed up with Voltgauge =
numbers=20
soon) ranging from .8-1.0. This looks to be rich enough to lean out with =
some=20
type of fuel controller. Anybody out there well versed on O2 sensor data =
and=20
give me some info about what the voltages mean, how lean can/should I =
go, what=20
is the best air/fuel controller, etc. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF700E.06CB40E0--



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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:37:44 EST
From: MitsuVR41@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Transmission   and clutch problems

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Okay,    95 VR-4         6 speed  
 
sometimes I have problems shifting into 1st or reverse.   pumping the clutch
sometimes seems to help, but it is hard to say.
    also,   going into 3rd, sometimes I have to wait about a half second
before the shifter will actually go into 3rd,  I guess that must be a syncro
problem there, but is the first?

NOW  the clutch problem,  the booster moves in about 1/2 an inch before I get
a good bite on the clutch,  and the pedal had about 1/2 an  inch free play in
it.  
   How should I adjust the clutch?  The positon switch was all the way up
with the pedal all the way up,   I lowerd the pedal via the position switch
and the slack is out of the pedal, but now the pedal is too low,  plus the
booster still has play.  I ran the booster check and it failed one test but
passsed the other.   does all of this sound booster related or what?  I can't
figure it out.   thanks    Shannon  95 VR-4


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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 21:34:40 -0800
From: "Todd Schmalzried" <Q11981@email.mot.com>
Subject: Team3S: motor question

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Is there any way to tell the difference between a turbo and non-turbo
long block?
I found a core which the guy claims is a turbo, but the oil pan and oil
filter bracket are wrong. The water pump is gone, so I can't check for
the water lines to the turbos. The oil pressure sensor is also gone,
which is where the other oil supply line comes from.
I'm going to try to check the compression, but with no flywheel it might
be hard.

Is there anything else to look for on the block itself?

Thanks
- --
Todd Schmalzried                      q11981@email.mot.com
- -You "put your 2 cents in" but only get "a penny for your thoughts"
- -Who gets the change? Think about it.  O-


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:31:25 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: A/F ratio data for NA cars.

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This is very normal for our cars, although I do not have any experience with
our NA cars. But I do have same measures on the Camaro and I doubt that it
is different. Now you must find out the safe amount of fuel you can give.
Therefore the amount of knock would be good to know. For an NA car I'd say
0.86V is rich enough for the higher compression ratio but I'd not change it
(you can use an old AFC) without any monitor for knock.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

PS: ADMIN WARNING : Do not use HTML in your posts !

> WOT, I am getting voltages (from the gauge, these data will be backed up
with Voltgauge numbers soon)
> ranging from .8-1.0. This looks to be rich enough to lean out with some
type of fuel controller.



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:58:29 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Injector questions...

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(182in^3 * 7000rpm * 0.5 *0.9 * 2.3 (1.3 bars of boost)) / 1728 = 763 cfm

> > 13g and 15g maps as I need them for my calcs.
>
> Obviously I don't have those, but I don't think I would need them to make
> my above statement.  The 9Bs just can't push 15 psi near redline.  Since
> lower psi will correspond to lower cfm (efficiency issues aside) I don't
see
> the point you're trying to make.  260cfm is max for 9Bs at 15psi, so this
> is definitely the most you could expect from them at redline.

Damn, why can one know how much they flow if there are no maps around. I
don't understand this !
Are you saying that 15psi is the max one can expect at teh redline ? If the
260cfm is correct @ 15 psi then it is impossible that tehy can hold this
boot at 7000. The calc says that boost is limited to 8.3 psi then as the
engine sucks in more air than the 9b would be able to deliver at 15 psi. IF
I could get the maps I'd be able to draw a pressure curve over the rpm band
for our cars.

> Here's another excellent post of Barry's from my Starnet archives:
>
> <<The only thing the ECU cares about is the transition across one known
> voltage, usually 0.5 v.  It does NOT use specific voltages to determine
> mixture.  Anything over 0.5 v is considered rich, anything below that is
> lean.  The ECU is constantly adjusting the mixture to attain roughy 0.5v
> under normal driving conditions.  This does NOT apply at WOT.  At
> WOT the ECU goes into open loop mode and ignores the O2 sensor
> completely.  At that point the ECU (in our cars) dumps as much fuel as
> possible into the engine with readings from the MAS.  Note that the stock
> MAS also only operates well at lower than maxiumum airflow.  At higher
> airflow it can start to miss beats therefore giving the ECU inaccurate
> information (it is actually telling the ECU that there is less air than
there
> really is which MAY be a clue as to why the ECU gets paranoid and
> starts gumping as much fuel as possible).>>

I do not fully disagree with the great information. The only fact that is
forgotten is that the ECU goes in open loop when the TPS is showing a more
than 50% open condition and a larger amount of air flow. Simply open the
throttle fully at 2500 rpm and the mixture goes rich. Of course the air flow
is not really that high at this moment. Larger injectors or not the ECU is
only in closed loop at part throttle situations. If you install larger
injectors, the flow signal must be tweaked with a fuel computer. This then
tells the ECU that there is less air flow, causing the injectors to be
opened less time. Now, at WOT (or what the ECU thinks is WOT) fuel is still
dumped in like crazy causing the ovwer-rich conditions.

> > Come on, why would an NA benefit of a larger MAS or a bored TB ?
>
> Please note the word "superficial."  In other words, upgrading it would
> be similar to upgrading your spark plug wires.

Yep, I got it ;-)

> But with the way things are going, maybe I will be the first, heheh.

Also for me the car is my daily driver (at least in winter) and money is
limited as well. I'm very wondering how the animal will be driveable after
the new power drops it will get :)

> I realize all the things you're saying comparing Supras to our cars
> when it comes to track performance.  My only issue is with the poor
> showing for our cars.  I would argue that it wouldn't take much to
> put together a consistent 10-sec car, but simply no one has done it.
> I think a 15G setup, drop in some forged pistons, and run 100hp
> shot NOS direct port would be all it would take.  If someone does
> it and fails, then I'll shut up.  We'll see how Mike fares this year with
> a couple of his projects.  And there are other guys out there too who
> have projects in the work, so I'll be rooting for them too.  :)

I agree that a 10s 3S MUST have mods in the internals ! The forged pistons
and maybe good rods and pinions are the key to high pressure stuff. And I
definitely don't want to stripe the engine after every run on the autobahn
unless Mitsu builds some Pit-Stops every 100 km, haha :)

PS: Don't forget the weak ignition in our cars...

Roger
93'3000GT TT




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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:47:03 EST
From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Ground Control Installation Project

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Thanks Bob. :)
>
>Nice page Dennis!!  I would like to recommend that your page be used as the
>base and any new info and pics supplement you already outstanding work if
>that would be acceptable to you.

Sure, use that at will.  I would rather have someone start with this
information and add to it, rather than having to "re-invent the wheel". so
to speak.

>By the way, do you have an Autozone part
># for that emergency bellows kit.

Unfortunately, I do not.  I can tell you that it was one of those
emergency-type kits, and that it was in a green package, cardbaord backing
with molded plastic for the front (the kind of packing you would see for,
say a walkman or the like.
Also, I believe it was for a Honda, originally.

If you go into AutoZone and ask for an emergency CV boot kit for a small
car.

I lucked out when I went, as the guy I ended up talking to knew what I was
doing, and had done stuff like this before.  This made him somewhat
resourceful, as it was his idea to use a CV joint boot.

The boot works well, albeit the fit is a little snug against the spring (and
you have to cut large holes on both ends).

Hope that helps!

Regards,
   Dennis

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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:46:03 -0800
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: motor question

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I tried to find out the same thing about a year ago with little success.
The blocks appear to be the same except for the two bolt main for the
91 model year. The manual refers only to SOHC and DOHC which
implies the turbo and DOHC blocks are the same. The compression
ratio is lower for the turbo and I ' assume ' it's done in the heads, but
I couldn't get anyone to tell me.

Jim Berry
===============================================


>
> Is there any way to tell the difference between a turbo and non-turbo
> long block?
> I found a core which the guy claims is a turbo, but the oil pan and oil
> filter bracket are wrong. The water pump is gone, so I can't check for
> the water lines to the turbos. The oil pressure sensor is also gone,
> which is where the other oil supply line comes from.
> I'm going to try to check the compression, but with no flywheel it might
> be hard.
>
> Is there anything else to look for on the block itself?
>
> Thanks
> --
> Todd Schmalzried                      q11981@email.mot.com
> -You "put your 2 cents in" but only get "a penny for your thoughts"
> -Who gets the change? Think about it.  O-
>
>
> *** Please make sure you are using the NEW Team3S list address:
> team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
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>



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 17:44:05 PST
From: "Chris Marsh" <cmarsh90@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: HVAC probelm

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Hi, I'm new to the list and have been lurking for awhile, I hope my question
here is relevant.

My father has a 95 VR4 with approx 50K miles on it.  The car is all stock
except for a Blitz FATT turbo timer, the installation of the turbo timer
roughly correlates with the onset of this problem, so they may be related. 
If anyone has any insight or has seen something similar I would really
appreciate some help, my fathers description of the problem is below.

When one turns on the AC after a few minutes a small red light apprears and
shortly begins to blink in the center of the
little screen in the center of the dash.  The screen shows air flow and fan
speed etc.  It is invisible normally.  If one manually turns off
the AC the light goes away.  Must shut off both the full AC and the economy
setting.  Almost immediately after the warning light appears the
AC stops.  The fan works and blows air but it is not cold.  The heater works
and the temp control and fan control (speed) all work during
the time the redlight is on and when the AC has been manually turned off.

There is a plug for a diagnositc intrument (I have not seen this) next to
the fuse box on the drivers side.  the garage says that this
instrument indicates that the "air door" is not moving to cold.  The part is
described on the box as "motor,auto heater control.  Its part #
is MB657209 (I think-there are several numbers on the box).  This part was
replaced with a new factory part.  Immediately, the same light
appeared and when the diagnostic instrument is reattached it gives the same
fault indication.

The little screen has a solid state (black box) attached to it.  The garage
had one of these subassemblys sitting around.  They put this
used part in and nothing changed (same red light and diagnostic indication
on the instrument).  So now they think it MUST be the main
control of the heating and AC stuff (another black box)  They want to
replace this part which costs $547.22 new, plus labor, with no
guarantee that it will fix problem and probably can not return it to
Mitsubishi as they don't like to take electronic parts back.  This
latest black box is part # MB897174.

So what should we try and in what order?

Thanks for your help.

Chris Marsh
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End of team3s V1 #52
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