team3s
Saturday, February 5
2000 Volume 01 :
Number
051
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:56:57 -0600
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S list.
See message end for more info.***
Well, there is some method, by
which this is being accomplished in the 2000
Mits. Eclipse. Or, the
Owners manual is Incorrect. But it states that the
ECU has the cars
correct Odometer reading. How does my electronic LCD
odometer keep
track of mileage when the battery is disconnected? Can I
reset my
odometer by simply disconnecting my battery? Ooops, nope I
just
remembered, I've already had the battery out, and it still shows the
correct
mileage, damn.
How did this get to be such a endless
discussion? Have we gotten so
unacceptable to open idea on this list
that we feel compelled to debate
every sentence that is posted to
it?
I apologize for suggesting it in the first place. I found the
info in my
new Eclipse manual interesting, thought perhaps they had been
doing this for
a while, thought perhaps it might help this person determine
correct
mileage. Instead what would have taken him 5 seconds to ask the
dealer has
turned into a 4 hour debate on this list. I'm sorry.
In the future I will
keep all thought to myself.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Mohler, Jeff [
SMTP:jeff.mohler@netapp.com]
Sent:
Friday, February 04, 2000 1:57 PM
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
If you ask me, incorporating
PC style RAM management into a car ECU
would bring
a lot of unreliability
into the car itself, you would have to bring
in milspec
style casings,
environmentals, and very special PCB techniques.
NVRAM would also require
batteries, which would need maintenance,
can
leak,
corrode..etc..etc
-----Original Message-----
From:
DSMDealer1@aol.com [
mailto:DSMDealer1@aol.com]
Sent: Friday,
February 04, 2000 11:48 AM
To:
jeff.mohler@netapp.com;
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Re: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
In a message dated
2/4/2000 2:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jeff.mohler@netapp.com
writes:
<< I will back that up knowing for a fact, that I have
never, on any
car Ive
worked
on, had to specify a particular ECU part
number or any other
designation
based
on a gear ratio (most 2wd cars
come in different ones) and in some
cases not
even between auto and manual
(definite massive change) has there
been any ECU
part/ID differences.
>>
Yes, this is something that was talked about being incorporated
into
OBDIII a
few years back. Nothing on the 3KGT or Stealth would
include this
into the
ECU.
Josh
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:15:06
EST
From: "Dg B" <
dbretton@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: addco sway bars?
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end
for more info.***
Hi folks!
Anyone here used Addco sway
bars? If so, do you have any opinion of them?
Also, what diameter
sway bar was used (1", 2"..?)
Regards,
Dennis
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:26:20
-0600
From: "Vineet Singh" <
billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Mileage storage in ECU.
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See
message end for more info.***
The ECU in 1g and 2g DSM's
(eclipse/talon/lasers) DO NOT store mileage info.
Same goes with ANY 3/S ECU.
Maybe mitsu's made after 2000, they can if they
use an updated OBDII
standard, but for our sakes, the ECU has no provision
to store info like
that.
Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD -
http://manualcd.dsm.orgClub DSM A/T -
http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To
Shift!"
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:59:11
-0600
From: "cody" <
overclck@flash.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Ground Control Installation Project
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
I have to disagree with this
statement. Unless theEibachs are worse than
the Intrax springs (I don't
see how they could be???) I've had my Intrax
(1.75" drop) on my
car for 30,000 miles on struts (ECS) that are 60,000
miles old... No
problems whatsoever...
Cody
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Merritt
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:36 PM
To: Mohler,
Jeff;
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Ground Control Installation Project
***This is the NEW
Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
>
>One
question I have for the list in general here...is will the OEM
struts
have
>enough damping to control the car when its going to be
lowered on stiffer
>springs? ..not to mention adjustable
height.
I have been informed that Eibachs will wear out the OEM
struts very
quickly, and my next major investement oughta be a new set of GAB
struts.
So far, so good.
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:21:09
+0200
From: "Oleg-Telia" <
Oleg@telia.lv>
Subject: Team3S: Codes of
stock parts
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more
info.***
Hello,
May be someone knows where can I find a
programm with description drawings
and codes of stock parts of VR4? May it's
the same thing with the service
manual cd?
Thanks,
Oleg
Reznik
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:21:10
-0500
From: "Michael" <
mdorsey@mindspring.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
I've got a 98 VR4, and I've
had two dealers tell me that there is no way to
tell the actual mileage other
than the odometer reading.
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Basol, John
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 14:17
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
RE: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW
Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
I'm not sure how long
they have been doing it, but the new cars record
mileage in two places.
One is obviously the odometer. The other?....You
guessed it, the
ECU. The cars computer keeps a running total of mileage. A
scan
tool at the dealer would be able to read the vehicles correct mileage.
Like I
said, I don't know how long they have been doing this, but I susspect
since
the onset of electronic speedometers/odometers that use a
vehicle
speed/distance sensor. Which would mean all of the 3/S
cars.
John Basol
'95 RT/TT
-----Original
Message-----
From: Michael D. Romano [
SMTP:mdr-nhl@worldnet.att.net]
Sent:
Friday, February 04, 2000 9:28 AM
To:
team3s@stealth-3000gt.stSubject:
Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S list.
See message end for more info.***
Hi folks!
I tracked down a
1993 black 3000GT VR-4 here in Northern Ohio, that
the
seller (2nd owner)
is claiming has 14,000 miles on it. To me, this
sounds
kinda
suspicious...
How can I tell if the odo was tampered with? I plan on checking
the
general
wear indicators on the car, but am I going to have to get
a
dealership
involved to verify the miles? I'm not sure I'm up to the task
of
yanking the
instrument pod out to look...or even if he'd allow me to do
such a
thing.
Your thoughts?
-Mike
'93 Stealth
ES
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:24:50
-0500
From: "Michael" <
mdorsey@mindspring.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
NVRAM can't handle frequent
rewrites that you would experience with
a
speedometer.
Michael
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st[
mailto:owner-team3s@stealth-3000gt.st]On
Behalf Of Basol, John
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 16:48
To:
Team3S
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need
advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more
info.***
That is what the discussion over NVRAM was about. In
order for the ECU to
keep accurate record it would need to have a small
amount of NVRAM
(Non-Volatile RAM), which doesn't get erased to do loss of
power.
John Basol
-----Original Message-----
From: cody [
SMTP:overclck@flash.net]
Sent:
Friday, February 04, 2000 2:00 PM
To: Mohler, Jeff
Cc: Team3S
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Tamper indications? Need advice!
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
Anything that
"could" be stored would be erased as soon as
electicity
was
removed from it. Thus your average battery change, air filter
swap,
etc.
would erase the contents...
Cody
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:17:39
-0800
From: "Jose Soriano" <
amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Ground Control Installation Project
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
> >has a killer
>
>web page where he explains how to put the GC kit in, with photos. I
have
it
> >printed out and in my notebook, but I don't have the web
site address.
> >Contact Dennis and ask him WTF his page
is.
Wow! I wish I knew about that page before I installed my
coil-over kit! I
also have a little write up on the GC coilover install....
not as thorough
as that one but there are a couple of notes in there that I
found out AFTER
installing them!... had to take the front shocks off again to
fix the prob.
The problem is a "clunking noise" in the front
shocks. I just read Dennis'
writeup about clunking noise and mine was a
little different. Mine was the
gap between the thread sleeve and the strut
body.... well, check out my
website in the "MODS" section. I did
the website waaay after doing the
coilover so I don't have a good step by
step like Dennis, but check it out
anyways! Hope it helps.
Jose
Soriano
www.3si.org/amahoser***
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:31:01
-0800
From: "Nickolaos M. Sgouros" <
atenag@coqui.net>
Subject: Team3S: FW:
Subject: Vibration from differential???
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
Friends Hi:
I am an owner
of a 92 Stealth RT/TT AWD, AWS.
Lately I am getting a vibration from
the axle or from the rear
differential?? (some frient told me th look
the engine suports) Mostly
during the 1st, and 2nd shifts
between
2-3,000 rpm.
When I am accelerating hard it is worse. Feels like
Goop Goop Goop
at the
beginning and after goes a deep
vibration.. If I continue pushing
and the
rpm increase more than 3k, 3rd
4th 5th 6th gear the car feels
normal...
Any good ideas?
Thank
you
Nick Sgouros 92 Stealth RT/TT
Puerto Rico
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:10:24
EST
From: "Dg B" <
dbretton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Ground Control Installation Project
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
Hi Jose,
>Wow!
I wish I knew about that page before I installed my coil-over kit! I
>also
have a little write up on the GC coilover install.... not as thorough
>as
that one but there are a couple of notes in there that I found out
AFTER
>installing them!... had to take the front shocks off again to fix
the prob.
>The problem is a "clunking noise" in the front
shocks. I just read Dennis'
>writeup about clunking noise and mine was a
little different. Mine was the
>gap between the thread sleeve and the
strut body....
hehe, that's why I cut up the rubber hose and shoved it in
between the strut
and sleeve. :) I believe that's documented on my
page as well.
>
www.3si.org/amahoserCouldn't get
it from the link... is it dead?
Regards,
Dennis
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 13:17:02
-0800
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Fuel Injector questions... (long)
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
"R.G." wrote (in
response to me):
> > According to some tests done a while ago by
guys on the DSM list, the
> > stock MAS in our cars (same as a 2nd gen
Eclipse) can flow 800cfm.
>
> Again, I like to see the test
figures.
Sorry, I don't have them. Maybe Curt can find out more for
us.
This info was given to me by a local DSM tuner who frequented
the DSM
list. I found a good quote from my Starnet archive:
Barry King
wrote:
<<Anyway, I am very interested in this since I think the
limiting factor to
high HP on our cars is the intake. I think the stock
MAS flows something
like 750 cfm tops which is too small for a 15G or larger
turbo upgrade and
marginal at best (if not too small) for even a 13G
upgrade. Even higher than
stock boost setting may exceed this flow
rate.>>
That's good enough to convince me. :)
>
> Stock 9B turbos flow 260cfm each at 15psi. This isn't enough to
sustain
> > 15psi anywhere near redline, so maximum airflow is probably
quite a bit
> > lower. In any case, you're nowhere near maxing
out the MAS.
>
> Ok, you have the flows out of any map, right ?
Please send me the 9b,
> 13g and 15g maps as I need them for my
calcs.
Obviously I don't have those, but I don't think I would need them
to make
my above statement. The 9Bs just can't push 15 psi near
redline. Since
lower psi will correspond to lower cfm (efficiency
issues aside) I don't see
the point you're trying to make. 260cfm is
max for 9Bs at 15psi, so this
is definitely the most you could expect from
them at redline.
> Ahem, who wants only to boost up to 15 psi anyways.
If the upgrade
> is done we wanna play games !!
Of
course. :) I just wish we could upgrade the size of the MAS,
and
still have our choice of air/fuel tuning whether VPC, ARC, AFC,
PMS,
Haltech, or whatnot.
> > Probably none, unless you're using
the ARC w/ larger injectors to keep
> > the ECU running in open loop
(i.e. not putting your injectors wide open).
>
> I guess somebody is
mixing different wordings here. Open-Loop means
> the ECU uses table
vlaues for the injectors without looking at the O2
> sensors !! This
has nothing to do with the injectors beiing wide open.
Yeah sorry, I
meant to say closed loop not open loop. I still haven't
thought of a
good way to remember which is which. However, I don't
think what
I was trying to say was incorrect, unless you disagree with
some of Barry
King's old posts....
Here's another excellent post of Barry's from my
Starnet archives:
<<The only thing the ECU cares about is the
transition across one known
voltage, usually 0.5 v. It does NOT use
specific voltages to determine
mixture. Anything over 0.5 v is
considered rich, anything below that is
lean. The ECU is constantly
adjusting the mixture to attain roughy 0.5v
under normal driving
conditions. This does NOT apply at WOT. At
WOT the ECU goes into
open loop mode and ignores the O2 sensor
completely. At that point the
ECU (in our cars) dumps as much fuel as
possible into the engine with
readings from the MAS. Note that the stock
MAS also only operates well
at lower than maxiumum airflow. At higher
airflow it can start to miss
beats therefore giving the ECU inaccurate
information (it is actually telling
the ECU that there is less air than there
really is which MAY be a clue as to
why the ECU gets paranoid and
starts gumping as much fuel as
possible).>>
So you disagree with some or all of this, Roger?
You and Barry cannot
both be right. I have pages of Barry's detailed
posts regarding this and
other similar subjects, as well as posts saying how
was able to keep the
ECU in closed loop by sufficiently leaning with
AFC. I had assumed that
he was monitoring this by monitoring his
IDC.
> > Question: Why has nobody made a bigger MAS upgrade
available for
> > our cars, preferably one without the additional
tuning hardware (i.e. the
> > ARC-GP2)? Frankly, I don't want to
bother using the VPC or ARC
> > unless I need to, and the only reason I
would need to is because the
> > MAS is getting maxed out
airflow-wise.
>
> Same answer in the other mail ... please only use
one thread !!
Why?! So that it will be twice as likely to be
ignored or overlooked? :)
First of all, the question is relevant in
both emails. Second of all, I still
haven't seen answer to the
question. I rest my case. ;)
> > Somebody pass this
along to Brian at GT-Pro, and I'll mention it to
> > Mike at AAM.
Maybe they can come up with something. It might
> > even appeal
to NA owners (if only as a "superficial" upgrade).
>
>
Come on, why would an NA benefit of a larger MAS or a bored TB ?
Please
note the word "superficial." In other words, upgrading it
would
be similar to upgrading your spark plug wires.
> >
Mahaffey, "You'll be running 10's all day long." I can't see why
not
> > given the times accomplished by the 15Gs. I want to see
somebody
> > do this.
>
> Why not you ??
:)
Because I'm a 22 year old college student who plans to pay for
most of these
mods with money I've made from a part-time job,
selling random junk around my
house, trading a few stocks, and
maybe a small college loan. Oh yeah,
this is my daily driver.
But with the way things are going, maybe I will
be the first, heheh.
It's funny how the guy still second in line behind
Jack is a young
notorious son of a gun named Adam Weltz. We all
remember him.
> The Hondas have a much more intelligent headwork on
the engine
> than ours but this makes the stuff a lill
easier.
But they have extremely weak bottom ends and major
traction
problems.
As for the Supra, it has an extremely strong bottom
end and a
very strong tranny to boot. I've heard plenty of first-hand
stories
of very reliable 10-sec setups which only require changing to
slicks.
One guy has done 10s on street drag radials, and another guy
has
even done 10s on stock turbos (w/ shot of NOS). The list
of
Supras in the 10s is nearly countless, and I don't think they have
any
serious advantages over us, tranny issues included.
I realize all the
things you're saying comparing Supras to our cars
when it comes to track
performance. My only issue is with the poor
showing for our cars.
I would argue that it wouldn't take much to
put together a consistent 10-sec
car, but simply no one has done it.
I think a 15G setup, drop in some forged
pistons, and run 100hp
shot NOS direct port would be all it would take.
If someone does
it and fails, then I'll shut up. We'll see how Mike
fares this year with
a couple of his projects. And there are other guys
out there too who
have projects in the work, so I'll be rooting for them
too. :)
- --Errin
Seattle
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:24:36
-0500
From: "Michael Booker" <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Aftermarket struts
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for
more info.***
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I am in need of some aftermarket struts. Who makes the
best for a 93 NA =
Stealth R/T? Is the GC kit a good product, or is
there a coilover kit =
available? Thanks in advance.
Matt
-
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0
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<META
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am in
need of some aftermarket =
struts. Who makes=20
the best for a 93 NA
Stealth R/T? Is the GC kit a good product, or =
is=20
there a
coilover kit available? Thanks in
advance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial
size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:03:15
-0800
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Fuel cut problem.
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message
end for more info.***
Ken Middaugh wrote:
> Please share
the many negative things you've heard. I have only heard positive
>
things about the ARC, mostly from Roger's past posts and Split Second's
web
> pages ;). Are people having trouble with it, is it difficult
to tune, does it
> not work, is performance poorer than expected, does it
break? Do tell...
You'd be better off hearing it firsthand from
Mike Mahaffey at
Altered Atmosphere. He's sold quite a few and all of
them have
been returned. Allegedly, build quality is poor as is
tuneability
and fuel curves.
I just don't like the fact that you only
pop in a chip (which unlike
the VPC is ~not~ specific to your injectors) and
turn a knob to
"choose" the size of your injectors. I think
there's a gain setting
too. Essentially, the ARC seems to be sort of
like having a VPC
without a GCC.
Lastly regarding the ARC, it simply
doesn't seem worth it to spend
$1000 and have almost no control over the
air/fuel curve (and thus
be able to achieve the right "sweet spot"
for your car) at specific
points in your rpm range. You're better off
with something which
you can actively ~tune~ yourself like VPC/GCC, AFC, or
PMS.
You also have no control over timing (which you can get with
the
somewhat more expensive Haltech or same priced PMS).
I'm much more
interested in actually being able to tune the air fuel
curve myself using an
EGT gauge and that new GReddy A/F gauge
with included semi-wideband 02
sensor. AFC and PMS allow for
this. Yes it is rpm-based, but at least
the signals are what your ECU
is accustomed to dealing with.
-
--Errin
Seattle
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